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Golden Goose Awards · Why We Do What We Do

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: You're listening to Why we do what we do? Welcome
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: to Why we do what we do. I am your
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: Studying Weavil Farts host Abraham, and.
• 0:23
  Speaker 2: I'm your these pens write in space host Shane.
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: We are a psychology podcast. We talk about all of
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: the things that humans and non human animals do to
• 0:33
  Speaker 1: the best of our ability, at least a lot, and
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: sometimes we talk about science.
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  Speaker 2: I think a lot. Yeah, talk about weird, Yeah, funny,
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: how that works? Yeah. And so today we are talking
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: about how do we describe this the types of science
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: projects that do not produce immediate results but maybe give
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: us a lot of really great benefits that we didn't expect.
• 0:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot more than you would think. It is
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  Speaker 1: the underappreciate benefits of just doing good science. And that's
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: what we are here to talk about because I think
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  Speaker 1: it is something that too few people are aware of
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: what goes on in this in the research space with
• 1:13
  Speaker 1: people who are like studying stuff that sounds weird and
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: it actually ends up having phenomenally wonderful outcomes that benefit
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  Speaker 1: all of us all the time. And we will celebrate
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  Speaker 1: all of those things in this discussion. And before we
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  Speaker 1: get into any of that I would just like to
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  Speaker 1: say thank you for joining us. If you're a returning
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: person and you've been here before, then we hope that
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  Speaker 1: you enjoy this just as much, if not more, than
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: you have every other episode that you have deigned to
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: join us for. And if you're here for the first time,
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: then welcome. I'm really hoping that you enjoy what you
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  Speaker 1: hear today. And if either of those groups of people
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: have not already made the choice to support us, one
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: way that you can do that is by heading over
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• 1:55
  Speaker 1: rating and a review, Subscribe, go make a friend, subscribe
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: and tell people about us, and and build billboards with their.
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: Names on it. Whatever you want to do.
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: Sure that all helps, and I'll talk more about the
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: legitimate ways that you can support us at the end
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: of this discussion.
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: But Shane, yeah, tell me more.
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: It is June eleventh, which means happy Corn on the
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  Speaker 1: Cob day.
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  Speaker 2: Dude, love Corn on the cob. That is the best day.
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: It's also Cousteau Day. Sure, thanks Jacques, Yeah, yeah, maybe
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: he deserves an episode. He's an interesting guy. Yeah, speaking
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: of which it's dirty book day. Hmmm. I don't know
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: if it's metaphorically dirty or like physical, I don't know,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: but it's like drop it, I guess. I guess a
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: very well worn book. Maybe, I don't know. Yeah, I
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: call those well loved, you know, which also goes into
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: the metaphor of dirty anyway. International yarn bombing.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, which is not bombing yarn internationally, but it's
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  Speaker 1: it's it's a celebration of people who use not yarn
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  Speaker 1: to make things.
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  Speaker 2: I love that.
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  Speaker 1: I had to look that up because I was concerned
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  Speaker 1: when I saw bombing in the name of anything.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that's a loaded word right now.
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: It's Kamea Maya Day. That's exciting. Is that the I
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: believe that's the Oh no, no, that's something else. I
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: was thinking it was that one.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Asteroid thing that we observed by I think it's something else.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: It's a celebration in Hawaii for chings of Hawaii. Got it?
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Got it? I read it, and I went I love
• 3:15
  Speaker 2: dragon ball Z. It was not not that thing, Okay.
• 3:18
  Speaker 2: Kameya Maya is a fun word to say, like it's
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: a fun name to say.
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  Speaker 1: Actually I did know that, but I was thinking of
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  Speaker 1: the that one asteroid that were like everybody was all surprised,
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: like they'd showed up and then left the Solar system like.
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  Speaker 2: Five years ago or something.
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  Speaker 1: And I think it was actually called a Muamua, and
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: I was just thinking of the repeat syllables. But I've
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  Speaker 1: been to Hawaii and they have Kamea kamea or kamea
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  Speaker 1: Maya highway. Yeah, and so I was familiar with with
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  Speaker 1: that history a little bit and I just butchered it here.
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  Speaker 2: So well there, yeah, No, I was gonna say, there's
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  Speaker 2: a dwarf planet called Maki Maki. Oh so there's also
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  Speaker 2: that in our solar system too, because we have thirteen
• 3:50
  Speaker 2: planets in our solar system, just so everybody knows, but
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: we don't talk about those ones. It is National Cotton
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  Speaker 2: candy Day.
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  Speaker 1: Not my favorite dessert, no, No, it's from an engineering perspective,
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: it is very interesting. But yes, from a good perspective
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  Speaker 1: it is. It might leave one wanting. Yeah, it is
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: National German Chocolate cake Day. That will not leave one wanting.
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  Speaker 1: That is quite sensine.
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  Speaker 2: Fully in on German chocolate cake. It is National making
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Life Beautiful Day.
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: Oh well, we could certainly use more of that. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: California State Parks Week, So I mean they have any
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: people left to help manage the manage that part.
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, go see some redwoods. It is Community Health Improvement
• 4:30
  Speaker 2: Week or CHI again. We definitely need that. Yeah.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: It is Meet a Mate Week for those singles out there.
• 4:38
  Speaker 2: Oh, it's National clay Week.
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: Make some pottery, National Little League Baseball Week. Yeah, that
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: seems about the season for it.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's fun. I like that. It is National Pet
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  Speaker 2: Wedding Week.
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  Speaker 1: M okay, okay, sure, I guess. It is shampoo a
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: week all right, yeah wash, yeah, why not?
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  Speaker 2: We did. We did a mini on shampoo. It was
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: one of our first one. Actually. Yeah, that was fun.
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  Speaker 2: That was a good one. All right.
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  Speaker 1: Well, we are not here to talk about all of
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  Speaker 1: the holidays. Well we are, but not exclusively. We're actually
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  Speaker 1: here more to to talk about science, as we billboarded
• 5:15
  Speaker 1: up front, and this is an episode that's sort of
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: another liistical type episode. We're gonna go through a bunch
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: of things that people have done in science and just
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: sort of list these achievements, if you will. And I
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  Speaker 1: will note that this is a very US centric topic
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  Speaker 1: for kind of two reasons. One our disgusting current plunge
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  Speaker 1: into fascism in the dark ages. And sure two, this
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  Speaker 1: whole topic is about a series of awards that we're
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: going to talk about that started in and is primarily
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  Speaker 1: or maybe exclusively Actually didn't check, but I think this
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  Speaker 1: is an entirely US based research award celebration, So that's
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: why it's very US centric. That being said, I think
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  Speaker 1: there are implications that broadly affect everybody. Yeah, so there's
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  Speaker 1: a lot of interesting things in here that are global,
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  Speaker 1: but the awards themselves are very new United States.
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  Speaker 2: Absolutely, So let's go ahead and get into it now.
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  Speaker 2: From Wisconsin, a Senator named William Proxmier. I gotta say,
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  Speaker 2: I just love names. I love names so much and
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  Speaker 2: like and like I'm not even like not even from
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  Speaker 2: like an ironic making fun of this name. Like, I
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  Speaker 2: actually just love names. It's so interesting. William Proxmyer a senator.
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  Speaker 2: Senator Proxmyer was a member of the Democratic Party and
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  Speaker 2: was elected with a special election following the death of
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  Speaker 2: the previous Republican representative in nineteen fifty seven. He's served
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  Speaker 2: it in this role for thirty two years, still the
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  Speaker 2: record for longest serving senator from Wisconsin.
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  Speaker 1: Now, why would we be talking about some weirdo from
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  Speaker 1: Wisconsin in an episode like this, Well, it's because during
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  Speaker 1: his tenure, in a move that in retros I think
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  Speaker 1: in retrospect is best described as shortsightedly Republican, which might
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  Speaker 1: be a tutology. Yeah, sure, Proxmeyer issued monthly report called
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  Speaker 1: the Golden Fleece Awards. And he did this every month
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  Speaker 1: from nineteen seventy five until nineteen eighty eight. That is
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  Speaker 1: some dedicated fascism right there. I mean, not fascism, I
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  Speaker 1: guess again, shortsightedness in which and in these reports, these
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  Speaker 1: Golden Fleece Awards, he mocked and criticized federal spending that
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  Speaker 1: he felt was wasteful, and it targeted a lot of things,
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  Speaker 1: but it often targeted basic scientific research. And when we
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  Speaker 1: say basic I think we've talked about this in another discussion.
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  Speaker 1: But most of the time basic research means it's like
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  Speaker 1: science for the sake of doing science. Sure, it's experiments
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  Speaker 1: that are just done in a super tightly controlled environment
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  Speaker 1: to just kind of see how stuff works, to test hypotheses.
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  Speaker 1: They're not often in basic research. It's almost by definition
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  Speaker 1: not meant to be applied to solving any one particular
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  Speaker 1: social problem necessarily, right, It's like, can we control a
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  Speaker 1: ton of of the variables of nature so that we
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  Speaker 1: can explore just these sort of minute mechanisms of nature,
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  Speaker 1: if you will, and understand how they work. Anyway, that's
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  Speaker 1: basic science. Sure, And he was criticizing the science because
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  Speaker 1: he would identify these studies that were federally funded that
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  Speaker 1: to him sounded odd and obscure and superfluous and just
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  Speaker 1: these these are these absurd studies that he felt did
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  Speaker 1: not warrant any spending by the government.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah, like I could imagine, like there's a recent study
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  Speaker 2: that came out that there's two that I could think
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  Speaker 2: of that were like pretty interesting that people would go
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  Speaker 2: really like one of them being that like Japan created
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  Speaker 2: fake blood, like synthetic blood, and Italy found out how
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  Speaker 2: to freeze light. So like, you know, both these are
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  Speaker 2: like they sound like why would we study these? And
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  Speaker 2: then like when you think about the implications, it's like,
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  Speaker 2: actually pretty incredible. So yeah, anyway, we'll unpact that, we'll
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  Speaker 2: show you exactly what this looks like in the real world. So,
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  Speaker 2: in response to these Golden Fleece awards. Another Democratic US
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  Speaker 2: representative from Tennessee, one of far superior intellect, Jim Cooper,
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  Speaker 2: envisioned a way to celebrate the achievement born of good
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  Speaker 2: basic scientific research. Cooper understood that it is difficult, very difficult,
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  Speaker 2: to predict the outcomes of some lines of research, and
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  Speaker 2: not to discount the contributions of these investigations that they
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  Speaker 2: could yield. I mean, the thing is is that we
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  Speaker 2: understand very little about the world around us. We think
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  Speaker 2: we know a lot, but we actually understand very very
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  Speaker 2: little about the majority of the world around us. And
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  Speaker 2: so basic research is necessary for those people who.
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: Go into higher education at all, and I mean even honestly,
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  Speaker 1: just as early as like a bachelor's degree or an
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  Speaker 1: associate's degree. If you start to really learn about and
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  Speaker 1: like specialize in a field of anything, the more you learn,
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  Speaker 1: the more you realize how little you know about that field.
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  Speaker 1: And that's compared to people who like know a lot,
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  Speaker 1: who also understand that the more that they know about
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  Speaker 1: this field, the less the more they understand. How little
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  Speaker 1: we know about anything. And that is to say, like
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  Speaker 1: I think we certainly could and should celebrate the vast
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  Speaker 1: amount of knowledge that we've been able to accumulate and
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  Speaker 1: distill and disseminate so broadly that like, you take anybody
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  Speaker 1: with a high school education today and compare them to
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: someone from three hundred years ago, and they're like the
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: smartest person on the planet. Like, that's what we've gotten,
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  Speaker 1: Is like the average person with just access to the
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: most standard level of education would be so far beyond
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: what was possible three hundred and even maybe two hundred
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  Speaker 1: years ago. And that's definitely a really cool thing to celebrate.
• 10:41
  Speaker 1: And I don't remember why I went down that road necessarily, but.
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  Speaker 2: We're just talking about basic research being like every question
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  Speaker 2: we answer yields more questions, right, And that's why we
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: need basic research. Is like basic research gives us an
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  Speaker 2: opportunity to answer questions that we don't know, gives us
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  Speaker 2: an opportunity to ask questions that we didn't think to
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  Speaker 2: ask before, and to find answers for questions that we
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: never even thought we had to begin with.
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  Speaker 1: Right, yes, thank you, Yes you brought me back. And
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  Speaker 1: it was it was thinking about the fact that the
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  Speaker 1: more we know, the more we realize how little we know.
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  Speaker 1: And we still know more now than we ever have before,
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  Speaker 1: and all that's really cool and like exciting, and I
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  Speaker 1: think it's so wonderfully intriguing how much there is to
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  Speaker 1: learn about the universe. And like the more we discover,
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  Speaker 1: the more we realize how much there is that's out there.
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  Speaker 1: So anyway, we were talking about this fact that that Cooper,
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  Speaker 1: this other senator, he realized that scientific research didn't always
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  Speaker 1: necessarily need an explicit goal, like just doing good science
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  Speaker 1: in and of itself was good. And another important point
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  Speaker 1: here is because these basic science studies are often just
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: sort of trying to figure out how things work, it
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  Speaker 1: can take decades, yeah, for their findings to really pay
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  Speaker 1: off in like a big financial way. And what that
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: means is that like public funding when it like that
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  Speaker 1: comes from federal spending that can afford to and is
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: more likely to invest in those types of projects, because
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: with private funding, they're trying to ask for immediate or
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  Speaker 1: at least very rapid returns on their investment, with very
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: specific outcomes in mind. Right, Like they're on the dollar
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  Speaker 1: of like we're spending this money now so that we
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  Speaker 1: can have that money come back to us in three months.
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  Speaker 1: And most of this like good basic research that's being
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  Speaker 1: done is let's just find out what happens when we
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: do this thing, and then twenty years later, we have
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  Speaker 1: like a five trillion dollar industry that we didn't even
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: know was going to happen. Right, that just sort of
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  Speaker 1: sprung out of the fact that somebody was pursuing their curiosity. Right,
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  Speaker 1: That's why the federally funded aspect of basic research is
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  Speaker 1: so important, because private equity is understandably not going to
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: take the risk on pouring a bunch of money into
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: something that they don't have any idea whether or not
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: it will ever pay off.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So when it comes to basic research, like one
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  Speaker 2: of the biggest things that came out of it, Like
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  Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about a bunch of projects, but like
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  Speaker 2: the one thing that people don't realize out of basic research,
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: one of the things that came out of it was ADS.
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  Speaker 1: All right, we're back, and I'm I'm telling Shane, you
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: must take that back as did not come from ADS,
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: came from the private sector. The basic researcher did not
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: produce that spawn of evil.
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  Speaker 2: No, yeah, I'm sorry, I took it back. I'm sorry,
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  Speaker 2: Basic research. I love you.
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  Speaker 1: It's okay, it's okay, But we had to set the
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  Speaker 1: record straight before we continued on.
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  Speaker 2: So. Yeah, So in twenty twelve a strange year. I mean,
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: the two thousands have been just a strange, the aughts,
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: the tens, it's been a really weird time here. But
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: in twenty twelve, an organization was founded with the intention
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: to specifically bring Cooper's vision to life, and the organization
• 13:51
  Speaker 2: helped found the Golden Goose Awards to recognize seemingly obscure
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: scientific studies that have led to major, major scientific breakthroughs
• 14:01
  Speaker 2: in science and medicine. And this was highlighted on a
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: recent episode of Radio Lab, and it felt like a
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: topic worth elaborating on, especially here in addition to their
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: excellent reporting, But we wanted to talk about here as
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: a science podcast, so we thought it was important touch
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: on yeah, And they took.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Like one really big story and they walked it out
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: in this really cool, engaging narrative fashion. And I wish
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: I had the like time and energy to do something
• 14:25
  Speaker 1: like that. Sure, and I believe that one of the
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: one that they reported on is in this list, But
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: I also wanted to find a good number of these
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: to show that like that wasn't a one off, Like
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: there are a lot of examples of this, all Right,
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  Speaker 1: Beyond the major cultural and technological relevance that has sometimes
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: come from like random seeming scientific studies, the financial benefit
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: is actually just outstanding. And I sort of alluded to
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: this earlier by saying that, like, you might invest in
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: something and then it ends up spawning a huge industry.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: Right, So, estimating ROI is very complex. ROI being returned
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: on investment, It's very complex and very difficult. But some
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: estimates put the minimum ROI as four dollars to every
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: dollar spent. So let's say we spend a million dollars
• 15:09
  Speaker 2: for a grant, it would yield four million dollars in benefits,
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: with some estimating as high as twenty dollars to the
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: dollar spent or higher. And it's not even just immediately
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: tangible benefits of research that can be counted towards the ROI,
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: But the fact that many of these lines of inquiry
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: spond ins higher industries and markets valued at billions of
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: dollars is going to speak to it for itself. Like
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: I mean, we're talking not just like the industries that
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: they create, but the money that it's saved as a
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: result of these these types of developments in these discoveries.
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and for all of the faults that I think
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: we could find with at least the current iteration of
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: capitalism that exists, there is a lot going on in
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: the world that is existing inside of and probably because
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: of that system. And in a recent analysis James the
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: Kucus Pathic Caucus of the American Enterprise Institute, he wrote that,
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  Speaker 1: quote public funding of basic research creates a pipeline for
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  Speaker 1: private sector innovation and commercialization while also developing human capital
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  Speaker 1: through graduate training end quote. And I think really just
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: highlighting the point that funding basic scientific research is an
• 16:21
  Speaker 1: investment in a thriving economy, and again, it won't necessarily
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: pay off right away. And to be fair, like, there
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: are plenty of lines of basic research that go nowhere,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: but we don't know which ones are going to hit.
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  Speaker 1: And when we factor in that, like four dollars return
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: on investment for every dollar spent, Like every dollar we
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: spend on research, we get four back. That includes the
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: studies that go nowhere, right right, So, like, just funding
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  Speaker 1: basic research is always worth it.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Right now, perhaps you hear all this and think, okay,
• 16:56
  Speaker 2: give me some examples, Abraham, you're talking trash. Why don't
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: you tell us exactly what this looks like? How would
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: this even work? And so fortunately, if you were thinking that,
• 17:05
  Speaker 2: we had anticipated that line of questioning. And for the
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: rest of this episode, you will get examples. You're gonna
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: get so many, so many examples. You're going to get
• 17:12
  Speaker 2: so many examples. You don't even know what to do
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: with those examples. And so get ready for that, because
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: that's exactly what we're gonna do as we go forward.
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: Now, Yeah, so we'll we'll talk about we'll give a
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: brief history and an explanation of each of these. And
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: the first one we're going to talk about is called
• 17:27
  Speaker 1: nano poor DNA. And I'm sure you're all thinking yourselfs
• 17:30
  Speaker 1: oh yeah, nanopoor dna.
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: I remember that one.
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: No, talk about it all the time, just kidding you
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: think you will, however, get the implications of this. And
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I believe this is actually the story that they featured,
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: but I could be wrong. The one on Radio Lab
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: that is. Yeah, yeah, all right, So let's let's give
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: the history here. So we're going to introduce a character,
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: a real person. His name is Daniel Branton. He's an
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: assistant professor at UC Berkeley in the nineteen sixties. At
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: the time, he was interested in a new quote unquote
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: new who was new event a new technology called freeze fracturing,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: and he just wanted to understand how proteins interacted with
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: cell membranes. Right right, This does not seem like this
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: is going anywhere. Fun.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Sure, basic research, Yeah, basic.
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: Research, like what happens when I freeze cells? Let's find out.
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: Sure.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: He ended up partnering with a postdoc student there whose
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: name was David Deemer. So we'll pick up with the
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: with what happens with Deemer.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So eventually in the nineteen nineties, Deemer used the
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: findings from the cell membrane research to put together an
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: experiment in which you would pull DNA through a tiny
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: pore like two percent the width of a human hair,
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: tiny which would rip the DNA in half and use
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: the force to sequence the DNA much faster. From a
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: fifty thousand dollars grant, they carried out their research and
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: published the findings in nineteen ninety six.
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: Eventually they founded a company like a private company, and
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: that created a thousand dollars handheld device that used their
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: nanopore technology to sequence DNA, and it was so fast
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: that they could basically just put DNA in it and
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: it would read out results in real time. This technology
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: was used to save the life of a boy by
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: identifying a young boy, they identified a genetic mutation that
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: caused heart disease, they were able to deal with that.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: And further, it's been applied to surveilling disease outbreaks, So
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: this is one of the way they tell when disease
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: outbreaks are happening and figuring out what they are and
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: pathogen analysis of diseases such as tuberculosis, ebola, zeica, dengey fever.
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: And it was used for many of the treatments for
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: COVID because they used it to sequence the DNA of
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: the disease and facilitate the development of treatments and vaccines.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: So the various things that could be used to treat
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: they could figure that out quickly by using their nanopore technology.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean to me, that's pretty incredible. That's just
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: like such a useful thing. And you're talking about efficiency there, right,
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: Like the ability to efficiently read and review data to
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: make faster decisions that are going to be helpful for
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: the community at large.
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: It's a huge thing exactly and we're talking about research
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: from six decades ago on what happens when you freeze
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: cells and from that we get like instant DNA sequencing
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: technology that allows us secure disease. A pretty incredible It
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: took half a century to get there, but like we
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: did get there, and we wouldn't have otherwise. Yeah, speaking
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: of DNA, let's talk about the CRISPERCAS nine.
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: So Crisper cast nine. Okay, so the Crisper cast nine,
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: crisper spelled cr ispr. Now. Doctor Mary Dell Chilton was
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: post doc at the University of Washington in the nineteen sixties.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: I think maybe there's something to do with the sixties,
• 20:38
  Speaker 2: Like that was such a great time for like people
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: thought the future was happening, and that's how we ended
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: up with Disneyland too, which is cool. So she was
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: studying how bacteria will correct mutations with their own DNA,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: and she would couple mutated with unmutated DNA and found
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: that the mutated bacteria were altering the DNA of the
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: unmutated bacteria.
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: Eventually, this work led to the development of the Crisper
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Cast nine system, which if you have not heard of this,
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: this is like the groundbreaking sci fi technology that they
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: talk about. Yeah, it's the technology used to add or
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: remove very specific segments of genetic information of DNA that
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: has led to just global medicine technologies and developments. And
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: it's still in its fairly early stages, and there are
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: more versions of this type of technology emerging now that
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: are even more precise and safer. Because one of the
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: things they discovered is all right, so what the Crisper
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: CAST nine system does is they can essentially tell it
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: go find that gene, cut it out, just get it
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: out of the whole seats, take it, which was like
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: a technology that no one thought was really possible, I
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: like not that long ago. Sure, And then what they
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: could do with the CAST nine system is they could
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: deliver a payload of a new gene and say, like,
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: insert this gene here. What happens is they could specify
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: mutations that are like, for example, lead to congenital diseases
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: that might be lead to things like cancer or other
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: major diseases, and they could simply go in and say,
• 22:02
  Speaker 1: let's just take that gene out. We know that it's
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: a problem, let's get it out of there right now.
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: The problem they've found so far, we don't need to
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: go super deep down. This is that when you change
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: a gene, even a single gene, the genes interact in
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: a very complex network of like cascading effects. So even
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: taking out that one gene might have very unintended consequences.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: But they have already been able to use this to
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: do all kinds of incredible, incredible things successfully. So while
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: they are not using this in people for the most
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: part right now, they are using this in animals, and
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: they are using this in like plants for food and
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: stuff like that and for medicines, so they're they're figuring
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: it out. But it's pretty amazing technology that again is
• 22:46
  Speaker 1: like very very sci fi feeling.
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, if you read Upgrade by Blake Crouch,
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: like this is it's based on like the idea of
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: like gene modification from technology like this. Wow. Yeah, that
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: is on my list. Oh and it's so good. Nice.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Well, we will downgrade with an ad All right, let's
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: come back. We've talked about nanopore DNA, we talked about
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: crisper DNA. Let's move off of DNA for a minute.
• 23:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we're gonna take a little bit of shift. We're
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: gonna talk about non opioid pain medication, which is groundbreaking stuff. Now,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: in the nineteen seventies, Boldomero, Tito Olivera and Lordes Lily
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: Cruz started studying venomous cone snails. Okay, venomous con snails,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: What does that have to do with medication? Listen to this.
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: So these conesnails were they use their venom to immobilize prey,
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: and one in particular had a venom so toxic that
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: it was called the cigarette snail because if a human
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: was stung by the snail, they would have time to
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: smoke one cigarette before dying of the effects of the poisoning.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: That's such a nineteen seventies way, like thinking out name something.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah again Americans, Like, it's just like it's American measurement,
• 24:04
  Speaker 2: Like American measurement has been pervasive everywhere, Like they couldn't
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: just measure time. They're like, you got enough time to
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: smoke one cigarette? How much time is that? It's one
• 24:10
  Speaker 2: cigarette time. It's one cigarette time. Yeah duh.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: Of course, for those of you who maybe don't listen
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: to our minis, that is a kind of an inside
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: joke reference to our mini on this Scoville scale that
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: I think came out before this episode came out or
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: maybe after, but yeah, around the same time, and the
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: humor around our decision to measure things.
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: The way that we do.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Okay, So we had these two people in the seventies
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: who are who are studying poisonous nails. They were invited
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: to work in the United States to do their research,
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: and they recruited a couple of grad students, Craig Clark
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: and j. Michael McIntosh, and those students were charged with
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: identifying the chemical components of the cone snails venom. So like,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: let's let's understand this toxic chemical we got here.
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Craig Clark and j Michael McIntosh sound like Marvel characters.
• 25:01
  Speaker 2: They like, they sound like they work at the Daily Bugle,
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: and they're they're studying like super toxins. Yeah, yeah, they're
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: they're they're they're like reporting on super toxins. And they
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: keep getting like, they keep getting irritated because Peter Parker
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: keeps getting all the cool stories about Spider Man even
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: though they're like the actual scientists in the science corner. This,
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: this comic book is writing itself right now. I love this.
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: I love this so much. They keep getting fired by
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: j Jon and Jamison. Now, they actually had no specific
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: application or plan in mind. They simply wanted to understand
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: how this venom worked. And it was Craig Clark who
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: had the insightful opinion to inject the venom into the
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: brains of mice, which led to a major breakthrough. The
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: peptides in the snails venom was a powerful non opioid
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: pain reliever. Further, other scientists have begun studying the venom
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: in medicine for addictions, epilepsy, and diabetes. So snails led
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: to the removal of opioids from some pain medications.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and like, you don't actually need the snails. They
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: just needed the peptides from from the venom, which they
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: would not have discovered without having first studied the snails.
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: So just curiosity about poisonous nails or venomous nails, and
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: we learn how to create medication that would dull pain
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: that was non addictive because it did not contain opioids.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: So hooray, Yeah, pretty incredible. All right, here is a
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: really fun story. This was actually, in my opinion, the
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: most fun story that I got to learn about for
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: this discussion.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: Here.
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: It's a major development, but it took place across two
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: different stages of like separate lines of research kind of. Okay, okay,
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: so we're going to go back even further in time now.
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: So in the nineteen forties, we have this fellow named
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Charles H.
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: Towns.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: He was a professor at Columbia University, and he was
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: all excited about generating a controlled, extended stream of microwaves
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: through contact with an electron and an excited state. This
• 26:52
  Speaker 1: really got the guy like staying up late, sure, you know,
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: addicted to his work. I mean, who wouldn't with a
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: description like that, you know, very exciting.
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Also, everybody from the nineteen forties is a fellow,
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: by the way, like this fellow here, Like when you
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: said that I about blue affuse because I was like, yeah,
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: you call men in the forties they were fellows, that's
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: what it is, sure, or chaps. They could be chaps,
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: I guess now. Even at that time nineteen forties, as
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: colleagues thought this was a silly waste of university resources
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: and time. So in nineteen fifty three he built the
• 27:22
  Speaker 2: first microwave amplification by stimulated emission of radiation or MASER
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: for short. This later gave rise to the light amplification
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: by stimulated emission of radiation or laser for short. Yes,
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: the word laser is an acronym. If you did not
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: know that, yep, the.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: More you know, Yeah, surprise fact of the podcast. Maybe
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: actually probably not. There's a lot of facts in here,
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: but that was a fun one.
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: So many facts. That's a good one.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, So this is the nineteen fifty three
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: in the nineteen fifties. In nineteen fifty three, he decides
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: that he can turn light into these like concentrated and
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: he thinks that's pretty cool, and everyone.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: Else is sure it is. Lasers are cool, yeap.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: But for at first everyone just thought he was a nerd.
• 28:09
  Speaker 1: But by the nineteen sixties, scientists did begin to understand
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the implications of this technology, and once they did, the
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: world would never be the same.
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: Could you imagine thinking lasers weren't cool. I can't go back.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: I can't keep going back to that, and like it
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: can't move from that. Like I can't imagine seeing def
• 28:25
  Speaker 2: Leppard and then seeing a laser and going yeah, stupid.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think, like, I mean, I agree, they definitely
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: look cool, but I do think that nobody thought there
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: was any application for this or initially.
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: Right now, from the development of laser technology. We got
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: all these things here we go, computer hard drives, digital video,
• 28:46
  Speaker 2: satellite broadcasting, and the Internet. Perhaps you've heard of a
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: few of these, and we've got more, so don't worry,
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: that's not it. We have so many other things. Yeah.
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: So the fact that you can listen to this podcast
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: is essentially brought to you by Charles H. Towns messing
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: with microwaves the forties. Yeah, the chap from the forties
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: messing with microwave beams. Thanks to him that we have
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: the Internet. So for better or for worse, I guess,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: but sure it definitely paid off. I would say a
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: huge amount of industry happens because of the Internet now.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, exactly of it basically. Yeah, thanks lasers.
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: Yes, okay, so we have those things. And then in
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety three a graduate student named Dettow Doo was
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: at the University of Michigan and he was assigned a
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: project with some of these new So people had been
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: like refining and refining lasers and getting them more and
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: more powerful, and they developed these new fempto second lasers.
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: These are very very intense, very powerful lasers that are
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: also very concentrated light. And at one point he took
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: his goggles off a little too soon, and he was
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: struck in the eye by one of these extremely powerful lasers.
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: And maybe some of you have heard that it's not
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: good to shine lasers directly in your eye because it is.
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: Not Yeah, concentrated light is probably not great to fire
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: into a sensitive part of your body. So do went
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: to an eye center where a resident named Ron Kurtz
• 30:14
  Speaker 2: observed small, very precise burns to Do's retine. Several research
• 30:19
  Speaker 2: papers and multiple independent lines of research later, and by
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six, the first Lasik eye surgery clinics began
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: to open, now a two point three billion dollar industry.
• 30:31
  Speaker 2: So a chap from the nineteen forties messing around with
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: light gave us Lasik eye surgery and the internet you're welcome, folks.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: And computer hard drives and computer hard drive casting.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the fact that you can play a PlayStation five
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: online is all because of lasers.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: That's yep, that is exactly it. So basic research, baby
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: love it did it again?
• 30:55
  Speaker 2: All right, let's.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: Talk about some more weird stuff. The section I'm calling
• 30:59
  Speaker 1: cholera sugar and salt.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: Tog you. Yeah, what a lead in.
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so let's start with a with a huge downer.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Cholera is a horrid disease. It sucks.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: The Viprio bacteria, which usually comes from contaminated food and
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: drinking water, if it gets into you, it clings to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: the human intestines, and in your intestines, it's going to
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: emit this very nasty toxin which causes the body to
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: excrete massive amounts of fluid. It can lead to shock acidosis,
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: and if not treated, and if severe enough, it can
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: lead to death within just a few hours of getting in.
• 31:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Bacterial diseases are awful like that. It's just they're
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: they're all bad anyway. The prevailing theory was that the
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: sodium membrane was poisoned quote unquote poisoned by the bacteria
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: in the sense that it could it would not correctly
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: function to put water and salt back into the body. Yeah.
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: That was essentially that were trying to figure out, why
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: is the body expelling so much liquid? It must be
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: because the mechanism by which that liquid would normally be
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: absorbed and retained is like being broken.
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: By this bacteria. That was the thought.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: Sure, in nineteen sixties, koloro was killing millions of people
• 32:14
  Speaker 1: every year. Millions of people aren't dying from this disease,
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: and people didn't really understand how it worked. So the
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: US set up research institutes that were designed to just
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: try to understand how the bacteria worked. Like it'd be
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: great if from this they got a medical application, But
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: at the onset, it's just like, let's just learn what
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: we can about this disease right now.
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: Years before this started, in an entirely different line of research,
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: an article was published that was investigating electric potential crossing
• 32:44
  Speaker 2: electric potential crossing a membrane, which they tested on frog
• 32:48
  Speaker 2: skin and found that glucose from sugar would drastically increase
• 32:53
  Speaker 2: the electrical potential.
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: Yes, so everyone's connecting the dots now, I can just
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: tell from us the electrical potential of frog skin and cholera.
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Okay, h good with sugar. By the way, it was
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: important chorus.
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: Yes, so as they say, men in black.
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: So anyway, they noted this paper, so they set up
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: this research facility. They noted this paper, and they decided
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: to test the same application that they used with this
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: glucose thing, and they injected a very simple electrolyte sugar,
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: potassium and sodium bicarbonate mixture into water and injected this
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: into patients and it effectively blocked the effects of the
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Vibrio bacteria, effectively curing cholera. It just stopped it. Incredibly done.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, thanks frogs. What's more, the simple solution could be
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: prepared in a small pack about the size of a
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: tea bag, mixed with water and drink by like like
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: consumed by infected patients. This actually is independent of cholera.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Any disease which it causes extreme diarrhea that would dehydrate
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: people is likely to respond onto this intervention. It is simple, cheap,
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: shelf stable, easily deployed, and it saved tens of millions
• 34:05
  Speaker 2: of lives. Yeah, it is incredible what a little bit
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: of research can do for folks.
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they're like trying to figure out the electrical potentials
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: of frog skins, and from that they get like essentially,
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: what's like a flavor packet to add to your water
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: that will that will stop a disease dead in its
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: tracks that would have otherwise killed you. Yeah.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, medical crystal light, You're welcome.
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: Basically like barely far off from like powdered gatorade is
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: like it's so simple that they're able to put that together,
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: and that's just again the amount of savings, not just
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: in lives, but like of the industry that's sprung up
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: around this and all of the other things that have
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: come from it, like just really incredible.
• 34:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, pretty pretty wonderful stuff. I mean, like, I know
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: we're being silly about this and like kind of like
• 34:54
  Speaker 2: being maybe like it sounds like we're exaggerating stuff, but
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: like this is truly remarkable work. Yeah.
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean it's it's really astonishing. And we did
• 35:02
  Speaker 1: not get there because of ads.
• 35:05
  Speaker 2: We did not.
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: Nope, all right, we actually this turns out. You know,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: we can usually drag an episode, even if it's like
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: a paragraph long out into a multi multi part series.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: But we're actually close to the end already, which means
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: I probably should have dug up quite a few more
• 35:28
  Speaker 1: of these to talk about, but we'll end on a
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: few more, some good quick ones, just to end in
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: a nice big bang. These were actually some of the
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: first ones I found, but they were also some of
• 35:37
  Speaker 1: the like most profound aside from the lasers. That one
• 35:40
  Speaker 1: was like globally changing.
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: Lasers are pretty cool.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but these were pretty big, so I decided to
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: sort of throw them at the end here to really
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: end with a big, a big yeah.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So here are all the studies on karate that
• 35:54
  Speaker 2: have come up in the years. Now, let's talk about
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: US energy labs. So in nineteen forty three, the US
• 36:00
  Speaker 2: government invested a few million dollars, eventually increased to a
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: few billion dollars, which is, you know, point zero three
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: percent of the GDP in twenty twelve. But from this
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: we got more resilient passenger jets, a better water purification
• 36:13
  Speaker 2: system that has increased access to safe drinking water for
• 36:16
  Speaker 2: millions of people, communications and observation satellites, fluorescent lights, better
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: cancer treatments, and the optical digital recording technology behind all
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: modern music, video, and data storage. So it just took
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: a few billion dollars, but we got everything from it, apparently.
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and again to highlight the point that that was
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: point zero three percent of the GDP. Point zero three, right,
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: we're not even at one percent, Like it's that small
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: a chunk of the budget. Okay, the National Science Foundation.
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: So in nineteen fifty, Senator the fifties, man, like, let's
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: just keep coming back.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: These bunch of fellows showing up with their future views.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: Better Tomorrowland, you know what I'm saying, Tomorrowland. Yes.
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: In nineteen fifty, Senator Harley Kilgore. Very cool, there's cool,
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: cool names.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: He was a Democrat from West Virginia and a small
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: business owner, and he championed the establishment of the National
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: Science Foundation. The initial investment in this was about three
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: point five million dollars, which of course increased over time
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: to about seven billion dollars by twenty twelve. What did
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: we get from this little weird investment of his Google
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: just that you're welcome.
• 37:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's wild.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: The most powerful search engine in all of time. Yeah,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: we actually got more than that. We got development and
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: digital communications, advanced electronics, environmental research, management, clean energy, advanced manufacturing, nanotechnology,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: and biotechnology. This is all like projects that have has
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: come from or aided by the National Science Foundation. Just
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: again funding some good scientific research.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Can we also talk about the fact that he
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: was a Democrat from West Virginia, which feels like a rarity?
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah right, I mean it was nineteen fifty as the
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: world was different place.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, it was a different place. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, no, yeah,
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: we we have an idea. He probably had some different
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: alignments back then. Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency. So in
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: response to the launch of Sputnik, because you know, Americans
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: love competition, like we love a good like, oh, you're
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: not going to win, we're number one, you say, like,
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: we'd like to do that. So you know, Sputnik goes
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: up and everybody goes uh that. And in nineteen fifty eight,
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: the US founded DARPA within an initial investment of two
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: hundred and forty six million dollars, increasing the three billion
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: dollars in twenty twelve. The R and D has been
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: instrumental in the creation of the Internet, GPS, and SII.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: So you've got all of those as a result of Sputnik,
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: well on specifically DARPA.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: But yes, the uh, the competition sponge, which was like
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: a bunch of people really interested in going to like
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: sending man made objects into space, which is now just
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: littered with man made objects. The objects, I guess I
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: should say a bunch of space trash, A bunch of
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: space trash. Yeah, there's a whole bunch of it up there.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: But yeah, so I think we talked about this when
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: we started. This is all inspired by the idea of
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: the Golden Goose Awards, and most of these that I
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: listed were recipients of the Golden Goose Awards. The last
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: three weren't, but the rest of them were talking about
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: like lasers and the Crisper all of that. These awards
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: were given to people who did basic research that resulted
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: in like paradigm changing inventions, technologies, breakthroughs like this pushed
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: science so far ahead of where it was and it
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: was all because people decided that it was important to
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: just study things. And you know, we look back at
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: people have made this comparison that if you were to
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: go back, like a thousand years, if someone a thousand
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: years ago was put in a cryo chamber and they
• 40:03
  Speaker 1: woke up two hundred years later, the world would look
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: pretty similar to when they went to sleep, right, Like
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: there would be more people and otherwise it'd be pretty similar,
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: Like technology would have moved toward a little bit. So
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: much technology has happened in the last century, and it
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: is in the last century we've been funding basic science research.
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: So there's this idea that we need to be cutting
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: funding to research the things that seem obscure and that
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: we need to be only prioritizing money toward things that
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: have a concrete outcome that we're looking for, and we're
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: not thinking about the fact that how we got here
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: is by funding basic research, right, is by paying nerds
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: and lab codes to like sit around watching weavils crawl
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: around and like mixed chemicals together just to see what happens,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: and carry radioactive rods around in their pockets.
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: You know.
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: It was this investment in education and this investment in research,
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: and from that we have gotten more technological growth in
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: the last century than the last like five thousand years
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: put together.
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, progress doesn't happen without discovery, Like, that's what it
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: is like, and we need the opportunity to discover new things.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: That's it just comes down to that. Like and when
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: you're funding research, and you're funding basic research like this,
• 41:23
  Speaker 2: you give people the opportunity for discovery, which opens us
• 41:26
  Speaker 2: up to progress and more progress to the betterment and
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: improvement of the quality of life of the community at large.
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: Like that is that is what has happened over the
• 41:35
  Speaker 2: last century. Our quality of life has dramatically improved comparatively
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: as a result of these technological advances, and they only
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: exist because we had the opportunity to discover. Like, you know,
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: I think that people will say that the forties and
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: fifties and the sixties were like, they're not great times,
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: and you know, societally, there were probably there were a
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: lot of problems. I don't want to say there are
• 41:55
  Speaker 2: probably a lot of problems. There were a lot of problems. Yeah,
• 41:57
  Speaker 2: But I think one of the things that was really
• 42:00
  Speaker 2: something that I look back on when I look at
• 42:02
  Speaker 2: history and I look at research around this, I feel
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: like there was an idealism there, and that idealism related
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: to the future and discovery and and I towards tomorrow,
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: like you know, all the stuff that like when you
• 42:14
  Speaker 2: saw in those old advertisements for what the family of
• 42:17
  Speaker 2: Tomorrow or the House of Tomorrow looked like, like that
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: was all a result of a time where we were
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: actually curious about what we could do in the world,
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: and we had opportunity to discover that because we were
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: all curious. We all thought the flying cars were coming,
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: We all thought that we were going to have home
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: robots that were helping us, and you know, kind of
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: we do, like that's what roombas are. They're not very
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: good at it. But they're not what but it's kind
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: of what's happened, right, So I think that that's the thing,
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: that there's an idealism around that time that really pushed
• 42:47
  Speaker 2: for the opportunity for discovery that led to the progress
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: that we have today. And I fear that we're losing that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think there's it's just that shortsighted this
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: it's this belief that we shouldn't wait or that we
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: should only prioritize things where we know the outcome.
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: And it's just that's not how that's not.
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: The way forward. Like we have, we've done, we've played
• 43:08
  Speaker 1: that game. It doesn't work as well. Like the right,
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: the return on investment we get from basic research is
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: better than the return on investment we get from funding
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: research that has like an agenda. Right, So like I
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: think we just we need to be in defense of
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: the spending of those things because everybody wins in the
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: end when we fund science.
• 43:27
  Speaker 2: Everyone. Yeah, we cure diseases, we improve quality of life,
• 43:31
  Speaker 2: we protect the environment, we do lots of things. We
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: make lasers. I mean, holy, we made lasers. That's so cool.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: It is cool, it's cool. And funding podcasts mostly happens
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: from ads.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: All right, we're back. Maybe not mostly from ads, but
• 43:55
  Speaker 1: a lot of it come con. I mean it depends.
• 43:56
  Speaker 2: I guess a lot of our funding comes from spirit, that's.
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: Right, Spirit and love from our patron supporters, yes, of course.
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: But okay, I think you know, we got on our soapbox.
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: We had some fun, We listed a bunch of things.
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: We talked about history, which is always good. But I
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: think that's what we have to say about the Golden
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: Goose Awards for now, or at least that's what we're
• 44:15
  Speaker 1: prepared with.
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: But go check it out.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: They have a website, they have a list of the
• 44:18
  Speaker 1: awards they've given. They are going to continue doing their
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: cool work and then recognizing good science, and that's awesome.
• 44:25
  Speaker 2: So yeah, cheers to them. Yeah. Maybe every now and
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: again we'll drop a mini on like a random project
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: just to kind of like highlight that for everybody, because
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: if you gotta be cool, I think to be fun,
• 44:35
  Speaker 2: I like that.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, if you enjoyed what you heard today
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: and you would like to support us and funding the
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: basic podcasting that we do, you can add over to
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: patreon dot com and it's WWDWWD podcast and if you
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: support us, then you'll get ad free episodes, early episodes
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: and other behind the scenes contents that you know you
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: want so badly, and you can find it there. If
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: you do not want to do it that way, I
• 44:59
  Speaker 1: think you can go there and also just like do
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: a one time donation if you just want to do that,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: which is also cool.
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: We're good with that, super helpful if you don't want
• 45:05
  Speaker 2: to do it that way.
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: They're actually apparently through our distributor, the website that pushes
• 45:10
  Speaker 1: our podcast out to the internet, if you will. The
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: interwebs Speaker also now has their own sort of membership
• 45:17
  Speaker 1: program thing, and we do have a person over there,
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: so that's a way you can support.
• 45:22
  Speaker 2: Us as well. So cool.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And you can also pick up some merch from
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: our merch store. You can leave us a rating and review,
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: go tell a friends, make them download our podcasts, or
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: just you know, text it to them and the link
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: or something. And we appreciate all of those things. And
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: in addition to the benefits that behind the scenes content.
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: I read the name of our patron supporters because we
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: appreciate them and the tremendous generosity they show by being
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: here and being with us, and so I would like
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: to say a heartfelt thank you to Mike m Megan,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: Mike T, Justin, Kim Brad, Stephanie, Brian, Ashley, Kiara, and Charlie.
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: Thank you guys so much.
• 45:55
  Speaker 2: Ah Nah, y'all are the best.
• 45:56
  Speaker 1: All right, And then I think that's what I have
• 45:59
  Speaker 1: to say about supporting us. But I also need to
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: thank my team. We have running in fact checking from
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Shane and myself, and thank you for recording with me today.
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: Shane, yes, of course anytime.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: Our audio engineer who helps make this podcast sound good
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: is Justin and our social media coordinator is Emma Wilson.
• 46:16
  Speaker 1: So thank you to my team.
• 46:18
  Speaker 2: I need them. I need them. I can't do buss. Yes, yes,
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: he said, they're they're great. They're all great. Yeah.
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: I usually billboard the fact that we end with recommendations,
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: which if you've been around you know, I think you know,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: you probably listen to the end and you know, but
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: if you haven't and you're new, we're going to recommend
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: some things and it's just for fun. It's not related
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: to our topic, but it's a thing that we were like,
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: this is cool, I'm going to share this with people,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: and so we recommend some things, so we have a
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: little music diddy to segue to that segment.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: Recommendations, I'm going to recommend a comic series. I think
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: that people think that comics are mostly just superheroes, and
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: they are not. Sometimes there's just really cool stories. And
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: one of my favorites is a story called Why the
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: Last Man, because exactly so, it's the letter Why. It's
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: a letter why. Yeah. Yeah. So this is written by
• 47:14
  Speaker 2: a comic book author named Brian ca Vaughan. He is
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: known for writing quite a bit of really cool things. So,
• 47:21
  Speaker 2: like he's written for Marvel, he did some X Men stuff,
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: He's written some What If episodes and volumes. He's written
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: for DC where he's written for Batman, Young Justice, he
• 47:30
  Speaker 2: wrote Swamp Thing, and he wrote Why the Last Man
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: ex Machina, Like he's done a bunch of stuff. But
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: Why the Last Man is a story about basically, it's
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: an apocalypse. It's like some kind of disease that occurs
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: and it kills every man on earth except for Yorick
• 47:49
  Speaker 2: man named Yorick Brown and his monkey ampersand and so
• 47:53
  Speaker 2: like every woman on the planet lives through this, every
• 47:57
  Speaker 2: man dies and it's just how the world devolves as
• 48:01
  Speaker 2: a result of just kind of like we don't know
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: if the human species will survive. Yorick is a sarcastic magician,
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: like so he's like the worst candidate to be the
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: last surviving man. And it's really just a fun story
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: and interesting story. There's like, you know, a bunch of
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: entities trying to find him and get him, and he's
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: on the run. His whole thing is he's trying to
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: get to Australia to get his girlfriend. And there's you know,
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: antics and sue. But it's done really well. It's sixty issues.
• 48:26
  Speaker 2: It's collected in a few volumes, which is really nice,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: and it's a fun read. So I recommend checking it out.
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: I hear the show is not very good, but I
• 48:34
  Speaker 2: hear the comic is good.
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: Okay, interesting, interesting, Yeah, all right, I'm recommending kind of
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: a book series. I think I maybe have recommended some
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: books from this series before, but I'm recommending specifically the
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: most recent book in the series. So this is a
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: fantasy series by author Brandon Sanderson. It's called The Stormlight Archive.
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: Right now, the plan as I understand it, as Sanderson
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: has talked about it, is it's going to be an
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: arc of ten, or it's gonna be ten books with
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: two arcs, so they sort of have like a big
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: arc of narrative that happens across the first five and
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: then a big arc of narrative that happens across the
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: second five. He just finished the fifth book, so we
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: have just completed the first sort of major arc of
• 49:14
  Speaker 1: what's going to happen in this world that he has created,
• 49:17
  Speaker 1: which is vast. He does a crazy amount of world building,
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: like and a lot of fantasy.
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: Most of it.
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: It's situated in like a fairly familiar environment. Even if
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: it's like different from our actual world, the overall environment
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: is the same. They have a lot of the same foods,
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of the same terrain, a lot of the
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: same cultural customs and whatnot. Just sort of magical creatures.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: This is like wholly invented, like invented plants, invented animals,
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: invented magic system. He created a huge amount of history
• 49:52
  Speaker 1: and backstory for this. It is a gargantuan mammoth of
• 49:56
  Speaker 1: a thing. But because it's so like comprehensive, you get
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: so sucked into this universe you're just like, yeah, reading
• 50:04
  Speaker 1: it is just you just are so immersed in the story.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: So the last book that just came out is called
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: Wind in Truth. As I said, it's the fifth book
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: in the series. I wouldn't recommend starting there because you
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: really would have no context for what's happening at all.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: So definitely start at the beginning if you're going to
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: do this. And the first book is called The Way
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: of Kings. But yeah, it's I just finished the fifth
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: book a few weeks ago and I'm still thinking about it.
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: You know, it just it's it really, Like I said,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: it's very immersive, so deep deep.
• 50:35
  Speaker 2: I love that. I love that for those fans of fantasy.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: And honestly, even if you just like fiction, like I
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: think it's uh, I think you'll enjoy it.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: It's a very unique take on things. So yeah, okay,
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: it's on my list. Sweet.
• 50:48
  Speaker 1: All right, Well, I think that's what we have to say.
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you for everyone for listening. Anything that I forgot
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: or that you would like to add before we hop off? No,
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: I think this feels good. Go Science, Go Science. Catch
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: us next week or our mini on Monday. But we're
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: all good for the Golden Goose Awards.
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: This is a Braham, This is Shane, We're out so
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: yet you've been listening to Why We Do What We Do.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: You can learn more about this and other episodes by
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: going to WWD WWD.
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: Podcast dot com.
• 51:18
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening, and we hope you have an awesome day.