Latest / Nightmare Success In and Out / Horrific Childhood, prison, helping others, college graduate - Jessica Henry

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Horrific Childhood, prison, helping others, college graduate - Jessica Henry · Nightmare Success In and Out

0:01
What happens when your worst fear becomes your reality?
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Hi, I'm Brent Cassidy. Welcome to the Nightmare Success
0:07
In and Out podcast, where we explore how to overcome your
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fears and nightmares to set yourself free.
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We're going to be exploring this topic with guys that was in
0:15
Leavenworth with and others who survived their own nightmare.
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These stories can be inspiring, sometimes.
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Sad. There's some humor, but
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hopefully you can come away with a nugget of something that'll
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help you knock down some of the prisons you built up in your own
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mind. We're back.
0:34
Nightmare. Success, listeners, welcome
0:37
aboard. This is where you come for what
0:39
happens when your worst fear becomes your reality.
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How do you adapt, survive, overcome, set yourself free?
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I have a great guest today. Funny thing is, is that Jessica
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and I just Jessica Henry. We went through this about a
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week ago and I was listening back.
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I thought it's such a good interview, but the Internet
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connection wasn't good. So I I called Jessica back.
1:02
I said, you know what, That was just kind of a run through for
1:04
us. We're going to try this again.
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So Jessica was nice enough to come back today and you'll enjoy
1:10
her. You really enjoy her story
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because it's a great, unbelievable story.
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I wanted to start off here because I found something I just
1:19
thought was a great quote. She was interviewed and this
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article that I was reading, but it said everything I'm doing is
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something I love, Henry said. I had been through so many
1:31
things in my life, juvenile delinquency, foster care, teen
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pregnancy, addiction, rehab, therapy, prison, jail,
1:41
probation, parole. And I'm like, why did I go
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through all this? And now I know why.
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It's because I can help those who are struggling on going
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through similar things to make changes one step at a time.
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Such a great, great quote because she's been through so
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much right now. Jessica Henry is a manager at
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Nation Outside. I want to give a shout out to
2:03
Tony Gant who helped us connect on this.
2:06
Tony was a great guest on the show.
2:08
He's doing incredible things himself in the Michigan area,
2:12
all with reentry and policy and those type of things, which also
2:15
Jessica's doing. But she's I was just reading
2:20
from here after having been incarcerated for nine years.
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She is a mentor who uses her personal experience to help
2:26
others through recovery. She provides the support
2:30
citizens need to teach and reach the milestones in their own
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lives. Jessica big time believer in
2:38
education and and the power of education.
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And she's big, big proponent of access to housing.
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She just graduated last spring from spring Arbor University
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earning her bachelor's and social work focusing on
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correction counseling. And she got a double minor in
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psychology and business. And she I.
3:02
The other thing I want to point out is she got 3 associate
3:05
degrees from Jackson College while she was in with honors,
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high honors while she was incarcerated.
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So I just think that's inspiring.
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It's just, it's just good stuff. And Jessica's got a heck of a
3:17
story. I want to unpack all that.
3:18
Jump into all that before. Before we do that, I want to
3:21
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Auto Plaza Direct tell them that Brent from Nightmare Success
4:08
sent you welcome and Jessica Henry, how are you?
4:14
I'm good, Brent. I think I'm about to take on
4:16
that Auto Plaza deal. It sounds real nice.
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It sounds like the easy way, doesn't it?
4:22
Yeah. And I I've done the, I've done
4:24
the process and and you know, in fact on my deal I was getting a
4:29
truck and I was like, I just don't think this was gonna
4:31
happen. But they they stepped in and
4:33
they kept making it work, kept making it work.
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And I finally got drove off in my car.
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I was like, this is good, this is good.
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Jessica, you were doing, you're doing really cool stuff now.
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And in fact, you and I, before we got on here, we're talking
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about you're working as we speak with, with six or seven interns,
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trying to get them into a process where they can learn,
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you know, skills that help them get back into the world and
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reentry And and you're always looking for dollars, always
5:04
looking for things. And I think one of the things I
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think is really important about what you do is you're helping
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these people. But it's so different when
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you've walked the walk, you've talked the talk, you've lived
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this world. And I think sometimes people get
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it, you know, intimidated by that person that doesn't know
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what you've walked through, how what's your experiences have
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been, whereas you, you're right there with them.
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And I think that I think the more we have people like you,
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Jessica, in that arena, I think there's going to be more help
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given to the people who need it because they're going to reach
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out and realize that these people really understand what
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they're going through and can make something happen.
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Yeah, yeah, yeah. That's one thing that I usually
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do, You know, you got to know your audience, but I usually
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start off with. Hello, my name is Jessica.
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I spent nine years total of my life incarcerated.
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You know, because that lived experience is key.
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Especially somebody coming home who may, you know, have issues
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with authority or somebody who hasn't been where they've been.
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If you're coming home and you have it in your heart to want to
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help others, you know. That's the thing that it is that
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shared live experience that's gonna help somebody maybe take
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the next step that they were leery to take before because of
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authority issues. Yeah.
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And I think that's what people they get out and they have a
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little bit of PTSD because it's not easy.
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And it starts feeling like everything's stacked against me
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and nobody's gonna give me a shot.
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And I really and desperately looking for that second chance
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reentry shot and people like you that are that grab their hand,
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help them along. Those often times can make all
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the difference in somebody's life that gets them to the next
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step, because that might be all they need is the next step to
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get in and then they're on their way.
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Yeah, that's how I had it when I was incarcerated and earned my
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associate's degrees because somebody took the time to see
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value in me. You know, and I felt so worthy
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that I could get my education and start a new path.
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You know, I'm, I still have the same skills from what I used to
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do, but now I'm using them for good, for my education, you
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know? Yeah, I'm using your brain and
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using it in the ways that you can use it to create positive
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effect. I know.
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I want to go back because I know you have such.
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It's really an incredible story because you've got three or
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you've got there's three of you as sisters.
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But you didn't have an easy time growing up, did you?
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Not at all. My mom was 18 and she had three
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daughters already. So we grew up in the West side
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of Detroit and we had some good times, some real good times.
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My parents got a divorce when I was 5 and.
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I always see one of the turning points in my life was the moment
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my parents split up. You know, they they had my
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little sister playing tug of war.
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One had her arms, one had her legs.
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And my mom's like, get in the van and my dad's like, get in
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the house, you know, And I I went in the van with my mom, you
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know, and I always think, what would my life have been like if
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I would have went in the house, you know?
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So that was like my first turning point looking back
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because there's there's certain things that you talked about
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that were just normal things like the bookmobile thing coming
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and then you guys, you know, getting books and that kind of
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things. But you only knew that
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environment that you were on. I mean, were there people, were
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there people outside of you, Jessica, like if you want to go
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spend the night somewhere at some friend's house or
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something, did you see anything different or did you just know
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your little bubble? And that's the way it was
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because, you know, you weren't by yourself.
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You did have, you know, siblings, which I guess in some
9:02
cases is a blessing a lot of times because, you know, the the
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siblings can always say how our, our, our parents are freaked
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out. They're good, they've gone crazy
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or whatever. But did you?
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Did you? Did you, As you got into older,
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before you went into foster care, did you, did you know
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things were not like they should be?
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I knew the abuse wasn't like it should be like.
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We weren't allowed to wear shorts or skirts.
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We always had to wear long pants.
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And that was something we didn't talk about.
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We didn't take it outside of the home.
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You know, maybe it was a fear of being judged or a fear of being
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taken away from our home. But, you know, I would go to my
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friends. My friends knew, you know, the
9:44
abuse that was going on in my home.
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But my their parents didn't know, you know?
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And now looking back. Everybody knew because we acted,
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you know, like we were trying to cover something up.
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You know, you always think, oh, nobody's going to find out.
10:00
But I mean, it's logical. Like when you come to school in
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the in the nice warm days and you have pants on, you know, and
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you just act a certain way, you know, it's like, you know
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something's going on in your household.
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But at the time, I didn't see it as wrong.
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You know, I just knew. That was my life and I knew.
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You know, I had sympathy for my mom.
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She, she had three, three kids before she was 18.
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She was still a kid herself, you know, so there was that.
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And she also lost her own father when she was 12.
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So it's just like the cycle that had happened.
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But I know that, you know, my upbringing, the way it was, made
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me into the person that I am today, Even though I had to go
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through those hard things, I I, you know, it was there was a
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purpose in it, right? And that's kind of like your
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quote. Everything you're doing now, you
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love because you've experienced all these things.
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You really actually know what that is.
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When you got brought through that process of foster care, I
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know one of the things you told me, Jessica, is that you got
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split up from your sisters. And I can't imagine what was it
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like? You were, what, 10-12 years old
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when that happened? Yeah.
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So how that happened is, you know, I think I ran away about
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eight or nine was the first time I ran away.
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And we got picked up and put in juvenile delinquent centers
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because we were considered runaways, but we were running
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away from the abuse. So when they caught on, that's
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what we were running away from. We were placed in foster care
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and the whole way. So we came from Detroit all the
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way to Flint to the Foster the youth home facility.
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We were in a youth home before we placed some foster care, but
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on the way there. I kept trying to memorize the
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path and remembered a a tree or a sign, you know, so I could
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make my way back home. Because even if those things
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were going on, that's where I wanted to be.
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And with my family, with my mom in my home, you know, where I,
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you know, my life, my roots were.
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But we were in foster care for 2 1/2 years.
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My two sisters, we all got split up.
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So we were in several different foster homes throughout those 2
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1/2 years. I myself was in three different
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foster homes and what was that like when I was like when you
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were in a foster home, were there other kids that were in
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the foster care? What were the people like?
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What was your experience like? So it was brand new.
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I'm not gonna lie. I like the life that I had.
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I had new clothes and. You know, I had a whole new
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school where I could not be a nerd.
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I really thought I was the coolest kid my whole life.
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But I know I was a nerd. But you know, it was just a
12:46
whole new environment, like the first foster home I was in.
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It was a couple in their 60s, and they had one other foster
12:53
child there. We went to church.
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It was like in the middle of nowhere.
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It was literally a village, so there was like 400 people that
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live there. It was so small, which had to do
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a huge change for you because you came from the hood
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basically. Yeah, it was so such a big
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change. And you know, it was country
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days. I used to sit down by the ditch,
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you know, like they have a ditch.
13:15
It's almost like a Creek, though, because it's so wide.
13:18
So I used to sit there with my Walkman, listening to my 90s
13:21
music and reading the books from the library, you know, that was,
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you know, I was, I was by myself and it it felt good.
13:30
But still, there was that loneliness and that I want my
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family back, you know. And then I got moved to another
13:35
foster home. The first day there, they handed
13:39
us a paper bag and said pick up these pine cones.
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So I already knew how that one was going to be right off the
13:46
bat, you know. You know, I tried to adapt to my
13:50
environment, which is something I still do, I had done
13:54
throughout my times in prison and, you know, not take.
13:59
Everything negatively, you know, try to make the best of the
14:02
situation. Stay positive.
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This is only for a moment. It'll pass.
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You know, it's a learning lesson.
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You know, what you're going through now does not define you
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or where you're headed, you know?
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So yeah, I always try to take, you know, something with me from
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those places to make me a stronger individual.
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And I made a hard. Well, I know.
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I wondered though is is like when you were, when you were
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able to get together, I think you said, was it once a month or
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once a week you were able to see your sisters and like a kind of
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a strange environment, but did you guys share stories of what
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was going on in your lives with what was happening?
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Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah.
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So we we met once a month. My mom, you know, for a family
14:48
visit, my mom would come to Flint and me and my two sisters,
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we would we would all be there for a couple hours.
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And it was just an empty room with the couch and some board
14:56
games, you know, maybe a basket of stuffed animals or something.
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But, you know, it was kind of, it was just like, what's the
15:06
word like? Sterile.
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It was sterile, you know, that there wasn't love.
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That we didn't talk about the things we should have talked
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about, like, Mom, why did this happen to us, you know?
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Or Mom, when it, you know, we we, of course we said Mom, when
15:20
are you getting us back? It took 2 1/2 years, but you
15:23
know. It's just there was so many
15:26
things left unsaid that now as an adult I I wish could have
15:29
been talked about. Was it physical?
15:31
And was, was your situation physical and verbal or was it?
15:37
Yeah. Yeah.
15:38
Physical, psychological, Verbal. Yeah.
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And then, you know, go ahead. Well, I was going to say,
15:45
Jessica, did your mom make excuses about the situation
15:49
where you guys were, or was it just not talked about?
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It was just not talked about, just like the abuse.
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It was just not talked about like even nowadays, you know, I
15:59
don't bring it up a lot, but my daughter will bring it up to my
16:03
mom or my older sister is the one who really holds on to it.
16:07
And when it gets brought up, my mom denies that never happened.
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I did the best I could. And I know that, you know,
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everybody's their own person and you don't know how she felt.
16:17
You don't know what was going on with her.
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You know, we didn't know that at the time.
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We were just kids, but. She was a young mom.
16:23
It was. She was probably so stressed
16:25
out. I'm not making excuses for
16:26
anything, but, you know, maybe her perspective was skewed.
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And you know it. It negates everybody's feelings
16:33
about the situation, but things happen and you have to move
16:38
forward. Let's just let's talk about that
16:41
a little bit, because you did move forward.
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You got out of that foster care situation after 2 1/2 years.
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You went back with your mom, correct?
16:52
Yeah, and you would have been how old then?
16:55
I was 13 when we when we were released from foster care.
16:59
So what was life like for you being put back into the
17:02
community, back in with your mom, back home in that same
17:05
situation? What?
17:07
How? What was in your world thinking?
17:10
So this was way back in 94, yeah. 1994 almost 30 years.
17:16
We got back, yeah, we were back with my mom and.
17:22
She ended up having a nervous breakdown.
17:25
There was an incident and something happened to my older
17:30
sister and my little sister ran away and she went all the way to
17:37
Detroit. So this is like 60 miles we're
17:39
talking about. She walked hitched buses, you
17:42
know, as she was like 11 at the time and no, maybe 10, she was
17:47
probably 10 at the time, but. She made it all the way back to
17:51
my dad's neighborhood. That's what she was going to
17:52
find my dad and he wasn't there. But my aunt Sharon lived on the
17:56
same block and she found my Aunt Sharon somehow.
17:59
And then they contacted my dad who had moved to Florida.
18:02
My dad came right up and he gained custody of us.
18:05
He went to the court date. My mom did not.
18:07
And my dad was given full custody of us.
18:10
So we moved in with my dad, who hadn't had us in years and.
18:18
I got pregnant at the age of 15. You know, there's there's, yeah,
18:23
yeah, there's your dad. And he's hasn't really had.
18:26
My mom had all the rules and structure.
18:28
He moved to dad, and there's no rules and no structure.
18:31
And I'm a teenage girl in a hood.
18:33
I don't want to chill, experiment, do the things, you
18:37
know. I met my daughter's father at a
18:38
karaoke night in the bar at 14. I met him and I was pregnant a
18:43
few months later and you know. I was independent after that.
18:48
I moved out of my dad's. I lived with him, you know, for
18:52
the next five years till the cycle continued.
18:55
Domestic violence in the relationship, You know, we leave
18:58
each other, get bad leave like my parents had.
19:01
And you know it's different looking back at it now, because
19:06
in the moment you know you probably would have made some
19:08
logical choices that are plain to see in your face.
19:13
But that's not what happens. You know, Sometimes you leave
19:15
with your emotional mind and you make these impulsive decisions.
19:18
Like, I'm going to make this relationship work, you know?
19:23
Yeah. So you get into that, you're
19:25
probably like, what, 18 now, maybe somewhere around that?
19:29
Yeah, when I left, when I left my daughter's father.
19:33
I was 20. I was 20 when I left them and I
19:36
moved back in with my dad. And that's when you know that
19:41
life came back. Because growing up, my dad was
19:43
always the dope man and my dad was still the dope man.
19:47
He was a hustler. It was in his blood.
19:48
He sold cars, he sold bikes, he sold whatever needed to be sold.
19:54
But he was a great customer representative.
19:58
We'll just say that. And, you know, so that's what I
20:02
started doing. I started, you know, selling
20:04
drugs. You know, living in the hood,
20:08
doing the things, except having a nine to five job and then this
20:13
is how my criminal, my criminal lifestyle started.
20:17
We needed money. And when you're selling drugs,
20:19
you're either having a really good day or a bad day, you know,
20:22
there's really nothing accountable in that line of
20:25
business. So rent was due, bills were due,
20:29
and I needed money quick. And the girl down the street,
20:31
she said I got somebody who can help you make some money.
20:34
So I hooked up with them and ended up cashing fraudulent
20:37
payroll checks. And that right there I I opened
20:44
a bank, I we printed some blank checks to a certain company with
20:47
a certain routing number and a certain amount on the check.
20:51
We opened one bank account in my name, my real name, so stupid.
20:57
And then we went to 19 different banks and cashed a check at each
21:01
bank. So now, eight months later, I'm
21:04
arrested for uttering and publishing 19 charges by the
21:08
Michigan State Trooper Fugitive Department.
21:11
They came to my door at 6:00 in the morning and my daughter was
21:16
like 5 years old, four or five. And I had known that they were,
21:20
you know, I knew I had charges. I knew something was coming.
21:24
Another person that we had to cash the checks was she was had
21:27
already been arrested. So I knew that was coming for
21:29
me. And that morning my daughter,
21:33
she opened the door for the cops and then she said I thought Joe
21:36
was the police here to take my Mama because I had been
21:40
preparing her, You know, I didn't want to just leave high
21:43
and dry at her wonder. So I let her know that when
21:48
adults are bad, they go to the big house to get grounded, to be
21:52
punished. And so she, I don't know how
21:55
well she understood that, but she got the gist of it.
21:59
You know, she would always send me letters, draw me pictures,
22:02
we'd call on the phone, She. Stayed with your dad.
22:06
She stayed with my dad. Yeah, she stayed with my dad.
22:10
And by when I got caught, I got six months in the county jail.
22:14
I did. I was actually in three
22:16
different jails because I cashed checks in three different
22:18
counties. So my first time in jail, would
22:23
you like to hear about that? Yeah, I would.
22:25
It was nothing like juvie. It was nothing like juvie, let
22:27
me tell you that it. Was different.
22:29
Yeah. I walk into Genesee County Jail.
22:33
That's in Flint, so. Are you scared?
22:35
Or you? Or you feel like you're the, the
22:37
girl from the street that's got St. cred that can walk in there.
22:42
A little bit of both. But nobody knew me.
22:44
So, you know, that's another one of those.
22:46
Let me adapt to my environment, you know, and not like a
22:50
chameleon, but, you know, still me and just day by day deal with
22:55
what's come my way. So the day I walk in to Genesee
23:01
County Jail, you know, you go in there.
23:05
That smell. I will never forget that smell.
23:07
I have been in there once since my incarceration on a good note
23:11
and it still smells like that, like smashed up baloney and body
23:14
sweat. It's just it was bad.
23:18
And then they they cuff you to the bench and you sit there for
23:22
hours and hours and hours waiting to get booked and then
23:25
you know you do the fingerprint, they had the ink fingerprint
23:28
then they didn't have the digital like they got now and
23:33
they they make you shower, strip you down.
23:36
You're wearing an orange jumpsuit.
23:38
This, this jumpsuit was one piece.
23:42
God forbid you didn't bring underclothes because you weren't
23:44
going to get a set from them. And then they give you a Gray
23:49
plastic tote and it's filled with things like a three inch
23:53
toothbrush, a small tube of gritty toothpaste, a little
23:59
clear deodorant that does not mask it's gel.
24:03
It's that. It just smells so weird.
24:06
It's not hiding any Bo. And trust me, when you go in a
24:09
place like this and your emotions are kicking and you're
24:12
scared or something, or it's hot under that nasty scratchy wool
24:16
blanket, you're going to sweat. So if you don't have somebody
24:18
taking care of you. Deodorant, the good kind, is the
24:22
first thing you put on your commissary people.
24:24
So if you're listening. To this make sure you send a
24:27
loved 1A bottle of deodorant. County Jail 101.
24:31
Stay clear because you don't want it smelling like goats in
24:35
there because it's bad. It's bad.
24:38
Sorry for the visuals, guys, but you know that's that's that.
24:41
But you know you got your stuff, a little crusty towel that
24:45
doesn't even wrap around one of my thighs.
24:47
It's so small. And then you don't get a second
24:51
jumpsuit. You have one jumpsuit that you
24:53
have to wear for an entire week. So I walk in with my toe and
24:59
it's this huge room, huge room. It's like 2 stories high, but
25:02
it's, you know, two-story ceiling.
25:04
Right in front of me is the officer's desk.
25:07
In front of that is 2 rows of metal picnic tables.
25:11
And then beyond that is rows of these big hard plastic chairs to
25:17
watch the TV that's mounted on the railing that separates the
25:21
two U-shaped upper and lower cells.
25:27
There was probably 100 women in that one pod and two people to a
25:32
cell. As soon as I walk in, though,
25:35
right between the picnic tables in front of me, this lady, red
25:39
older woman, red hair and a mullet.
25:41
It was a mullet, she said, Where's my nutty buddy bar B,
25:45
you know, she said the cuss word.
25:46
Where's my nutty buddy bar? And then smacked the daylights
25:50
out of somebody and she immediately got all the officers
25:55
rushed her, cuffed her, took her away.
25:57
And I'm left standing here with like two or three other new
25:59
intakes. So this is me in prison, and I'm
26:02
like, what's gonna happen next? Yeah, yeah.
26:07
You know The funny thing about that is like a month later when
26:10
she got out of the hole, she ended up being my bunky, which
26:13
was just. And how was that?
26:15
How was that? I mean, was she somebody that
26:17
you could get along with, or was she just that crazy?
26:20
Yeah, so she it it wasn't the craziness.
26:23
She, you know, didn't have anybody supporting her.
26:25
So she bought what the story on that fight was.
26:29
She had a pair of bifocal glasses that she borrowed to
26:32
somebody, and they were supposed to pay her a nutty bar for the
26:35
glasses, which seems so petty. But in prison, sometimes it's
26:38
all you got. And she wanted that Nutty Buddy
26:42
bar. But she was she was pretty cool.
26:45
One of the sad things they do in institutions is if you have
26:50
finger issues or if you have any mental health issues that needed
26:53
to be addressed. They don't have the time and
26:55
staff to give you the therapy that you need, but they got the
26:59
meds. So this lady was on some meds.
27:02
She would sleep all day and a few hours through the night and
27:06
she would be up. And you know, it was just sad to
27:09
see somebody like that. You know, there were a couple
27:13
times she woke up from some lucid dreams looking for her
27:16
lighter and her, her drug paraphernalia.
27:19
And like she more she had it, you know, And I had to remind
27:22
her that, hey, we're in prison, you know, we're locked up.
27:26
So, you know, it's challenging for some people in there.
27:28
And that's another thing I took with me, you know, that I'm
27:31
learning from and that I can use in my reentry work, you know,
27:36
the sensitivity that people need because you don't know what
27:39
they've been through. You don't.
27:41
You know what you've been through and what your
27:42
perspective is. But we're in such a fast-paced
27:47
life. We want it now.
27:48
We wanna do this here. I know my way and my way is the
27:51
best way. It's just it's a good thing to
27:55
slow down and take into consideration what somebody's
27:59
been through. Yeah.
28:01
Don't just assume. Yeah, when you got what they're
28:04
trying to overcome. When you got out of there,
28:06
Jessica, after that six months, I'm assuming you went back to
28:11
same place. Your dad's place.
28:14
Yeah. Do I roam Evergreen?
28:16
Yeah, right back. And I'm assuming also that
28:19
really things didn't change, cuz I know when change happened.
28:22
But it didn't happen this time. Yeah, did not.
28:26
Even though I said I swear it this time is gonna be good.
28:29
You know, I said that probably over a dozen times in my life,
28:33
but went back to the same neighborhood, the same people,
28:36
the same things, same behaviors, actually.
28:40
I knew I had to drop for probation, and my dad was right
28:43
there with a joint ready to smoke the day I got out.
28:46
And hey, dad, I got a drop for probation, you know, so that
28:50
that sober time didn't last long.
28:54
I ended up going to jail 8 a total of eight times for the
28:58
same, the same charge. So I got uttering and publishing
29:03
and they dropped 19 charges down to six, one per city.
29:08
There was 6 cities within the three counties.
29:10
So at that point it was 2021. I had 6 uttering and publishing
29:19
on my and that's when I got my prison number.
29:22
I didn't go to prison yet, but as soon as you get convicted of
29:24
a felony, you get a prison number 478755.
29:30
So don't forget that I can't. My daughter doesn't forget it
29:34
either. That's the sad thing. 38224044
29:39
there you go. Yeah, you know, but Jessica,
29:43
there, I remember that there was that that whole time period.
29:47
You're going back and forth, but you had a really weird thing
29:50
happen where you really weren't. I mean, you were saying that
29:53
yes, I wasn't living the life that I should be living, but you
29:56
really didn't do what? I think you were at a casino.
30:01
Is that where it was that's took place?
30:04
Yeah. That was my last prison bit in
30:07
between the that time. So like my last time in jail, I
30:10
got out and my dad, I was out for about a year and my dad
30:14
passed away. He had a severe heart attack.
30:16
Oh, you got to tell the story. You got to tell the story.
30:21
So my dad, he wasn't doing real well.
30:23
He he was obese. He weighed over 500 pounds.
30:27
He wasn't too active, You know, he was stuck in his ways.
30:30
That's where I get it from sometimes.
30:32
But yeah, yeah, he had a an asthma attack and his inhaler
30:38
wasn't working, you know, nothing was working.
30:41
So we called the ambulance, and by the time the ambulance got
30:45
there, he ended up having a heart attack.
30:48
And we were Wheeling them down off the porch.
30:51
And he wasn't saying anything to me.
31:11
I've only been on here 5 minutes and I've told so much of my
31:15
story. I knew I knew something was
30:55
wrong. My dad was my best friend.
30:56
I was holding his hand and I could feel his life leading.
30:58
And I was like, dad, please, just say one word.
31:02
Oh wait, yeah, I said, Dad, please just say one word to me.
31:05
I promise you I'll be quiet, he said.
31:07
Just shut up like so. That was my dad's last word to
31:10
me in. I'm a stalker, but you know, so
31:19
those are words to live by. Just shut up.
31:21
That had to be a big deal in your life, though, at that time,
31:25
because your dad was kind of the guy that picked you up when you
31:29
guys, you know, were really looking for someone to be with
31:33
and he, he was that home and that probably the safe zone for
31:38
you and your thinking, and then he dies.
31:41
How are you from that point on? Like what happens with you?
31:46
So while my dad was still alive, like, right at the end, I got
31:51
really heavy into drugs because I knew he was sick.
31:53
And I knew, you know, other things in my life.
31:56
You know, I had warrants. I wasn't showing up for
31:59
probation or parole. I was on parole at that time.
32:02
You know, I was dropping dirty. You know, it was just bad for
32:06
me. And then my dad passed away and
32:08
I was left with all his debt and all the bills in the house.
32:12
So, you know, I didn't quit using drugs, but I pulled it
32:15
together so I could be a parent to my daughter.
32:19
At that time, my daughter was 13, and then my father passed
32:26
away in October of 2011. February of 2012, I was arrested
32:33
on my absconding warrant because I had absconded from probation
32:38
and they sent me to prison for my first time.
32:41
All for absconding. I did So.
32:45
My dad never seen me go to prison.
32:47
And my sister came and lived at my house and took care of the
32:49
house for about two weeks before moving that, which meant my
32:53
daughter had to move as well. So my daughter moved in with my
32:57
mother, the same mother that abused us.
32:59
You know, my daughter has her own story to tell, and I'll
33:01
leave that at that. Right now.
33:04
My daughter's 24. She's doing so good.
33:08
She's got a legit driver's license.
33:11
She has her own vehicle. She has an apartment.
33:13
She has a three-year old daughter.
33:15
She works an amazing job. You know, my daughter's doing so
33:19
much better than you know I ever was at her age.
33:22
It's such a great story because I know you, you know you and I
33:25
talked about this, Jessica. When somebody's a young kid or
33:29
not, that doesn't have to be that young of a kid.
33:31
That you know when when parents go to prison that the the kids
33:35
go to prison too and they they have to figure it out on the
33:38
outside. And like you said, there were
33:40
the times. Well, you haven't talked about
33:43
when you got that final arrest, but she was like 15 or 16 years
33:48
old. And you you missed that time
33:50
period of her, you know, developing it from a, you know,
33:52
a girl to a woman and she had to figure it out.
33:56
And you know, it wasn't the best environment to figure things
34:00
out. But it's so encouraging to hear
34:02
that she made it. You know, she she survived.
34:05
She survived it and was able to to get out on the other side.
34:10
Yeah. So that first time in prison,
34:12
you know, we would talk regularly.
34:14
But she was, she was, you know, with my mom, she didn't come
34:19
visit. And I got my GED while I was in
34:23
there. So I was trying, I was trying to
34:25
get it together, you know. And when I got out, I enrolled
34:29
in college. I got my daughter back with me
34:32
and I just needed some money. So I started.
34:36
I went back to my doctors, got my pills, started selling again,
34:39
which wasn't the right move, you know, I violated probation
34:43
couple times from dropping dirty.
34:45
My daughter was living with her friend, you know, in and out.
34:48
I had to go to a rehab, which my daughter came with me.
34:52
And then October 23rd of 2014, that was the day I was arrested.
35:03
But the day, couple days before was Sweetest Day.
35:06
So Sweetest Day 2014. I go to the casino with a couple
35:10
guys. We all go together.
35:12
We all leave together. I find out three days later that
35:17
there was a robbery that took place.
35:18
So three days later I am at this guy's house.
35:22
I was, I had just finished selling them drugs.
35:24
So I hear a knock at the door and it's open up.
35:27
Detroit police freaked out. That's the worst thing you want
35:30
to hear. That's not a good wake up call,
35:31
right? No, it was in the evening too.
35:35
So I run to the back of the house to hop out the window.
35:38
Right. That's what.
35:39
That's the life. That's your choice by your
35:41
flight, right? So there's flashlights in the
35:45
backyard, you know. So I hide behind the door, hurry
35:48
and light that last cigarette because I know I'm getting
35:50
locked up tough and away. You don't empty anything that's
35:53
illegal off of me, you know? And the cops found me and asked
36:00
me. They were looking at this
36:01
picture and clearly I knew it was me.
36:04
My hair was in a braid. You know, I just wearing the
36:08
same hoodie that I had had on at that moment.
36:10
The cops like, no, that's not her.
36:12
And so I said let me see the picture because I didn't, you
36:15
know, they I knew they weren't there for drugs.
36:17
That's what I knew. And they showed me the picture.
36:20
I said, yeah, that's me. Like I snitched myself out.
36:22
I would look at that like you idiots, but.
36:26
But I didn't do anything like heinous.
36:29
So they say, all right, you're under arrest for armed robbery.
36:33
I said what? Not me.
36:37
So I ended up sitting in the county, Wayne County Jail.
36:40
At this point, I had been in five different county jails.
36:44
So I'm in Wayne County Jail and I'm awaiting trial because I
36:49
didn't do this. I didn't rob anybody.
36:51
I didn't take anything from anybody.
36:53
I didn't weaponize anybody. But I wasn't living right.
36:56
I know I wasn't living right. I was in the streets.
36:58
I was, you know, doing all the unhealthy.
37:01
Things, but not that thing, right?
37:05
Right. So fighting my case and it comes
37:11
up to about seven months, 203 days.
37:14
And mind you, I was on parole when this case happened.
37:16
So my time is dead time. And what dead time is, is if you
37:20
get convicted of a new charge while you're on parole, while
37:24
you're being held, until you're sentenced, none of those days
37:27
count. It's called dead time.
37:29
So after that length of time, you know, because it's pushed
37:33
back because of the holidays, it's pushed back because you
37:35
have a new judge. It's pushed back because the
37:37
judge is just getting in the office and she has to make all
37:41
these different quarters or whatever, you know.
37:43
So I ended up, my daughter had been helping me.
37:47
You know, I got locked up a couple weeks before my
37:50
daughter's 16th birthday. So she was 15 when I got locked
37:53
up that day at the house the cops ran in and seven months
37:57
later she still she came and see me once a month and she's like
38:01
mom, you might as well just take a plea so you could your time
38:04
will actually count. So I ended up taking a plea
38:07
deal. They offered six years.
38:09
When I went in front of the judge, she gave me 5 years to
38:13
unarmed robbery and no habitual. So a habitual is if you could,
38:19
if you continue to commit the same crime or even a felonious
38:22
crime, like I think California has three strikes your outlaw,
38:26
you have 3 felonies of a certain class you're you're in for life.
38:31
So she dropped that habitual. So now I just had the unarmed
38:35
robbery non habitual five years and I rode out to prison the
38:39
very next day. So while I was in jail that
38:43
time, I decided to get sober because I find myself back here,
38:49
you know, and it's like I said, I was going to do it right so
38:52
many times, You know, the intentions that I had were to
38:55
get it together. And, you know, I don't like
38:58
blaming your environment, You know, it's the product of your
39:01
environment. But in this case, the people,
39:05
places and things around me was the influence to the life that I
39:08
live. Sure.
39:09
So while I was in jail, you know, I opened my Bible for the
39:13
thousandth time. God, please help me get out of
39:16
this, but I promise you I'll act right.
39:18
You know all the prayers. And I opened the Bible and I
39:22
found this verse which I had already read 1000 times, but it
39:26
hit different this time. And it said it's Matthew 1345
39:30
and 46. And it says, for he found a
39:32
great Pearl and he went and sold everything he had to get that
39:36
Pearl. And in the Bible, they're
39:38
talking about the Kingdom of heaven.
39:39
That Pearl is the Kingdom of heaven.
39:41
But for me, that Pearl was my surprise.
39:44
And I knew I needed it. I knew that was getting in my
39:46
way because in my mind, I'm always, I've always been
39:49
successful. You know, I'm a Leo.
39:51
I got the big head. I'm going to do all the good
39:53
things right. But, you know, I read that verse
39:57
and I I wrote it down on a little post it note from my law
40:00
pack and taped it with some shampoo tape.
40:02
You know, you got to peel the tape off the bottle, right?
40:06
Right. Yeah.
40:07
So I saved it to my wallet. I read it every day.
40:09
I did not get sober then. But I did disconnect myself from
40:14
anybody who I ever had an unhealthy relationship with.
40:17
And that left me with a handful of people.
40:20
So. And that's hard when you're
40:22
locked up because you need money.
40:24
You need both deodorants. And if you're cutting your
40:26
money, people off. It's a hard thing.
40:29
So for me it was really hard. But it was the only sensible
40:32
thing I could do if I truly wanted to make a change.
40:35
Because at this point, this was my eighth jail state.
40:38
I've been in jail 8 times at this point for all those checks.
40:42
The first the check, the original, then violating,
40:45
violating, violating, not payment of restitution.
40:49
Excuse me. So, you know, the day I rode out
40:52
to prison, May 15th, 2015, is the day I got sober.
40:58
And I've been sober since then. It's like 8 years and four
41:01
months I've been sober. And when I got to prison, you
41:07
know, I knew that was like my life changing drastically.
41:12
I had to make a change because if I'm not, I'm going to keep
41:15
doing the same things and I don't want to be that person.
41:18
Almost like you got tired of that.
41:20
Almost like you. Yeah.
41:23
And I see it too in my work, you know, especially with the
41:26
recovery community, excuse me, that they get tired and they
41:32
want it in their soul and you can't push them.
41:35
You can. Don't ever leave their side
41:37
because acceptance and support, you don't have to love what
41:40
they're doing, but accept them as who they are and support them
41:44
through what they need. Don't give them money, but, you
41:46
know, walk with them and support them.
41:48
Say, you know, here's a place we can go or what?
41:51
Talk to them, you know. Excuse me so.
41:59
Well, when you got in there, Jessica, I know that you had
42:03
been back and forth, and now you're coming in with a
42:06
different attitude and and a way that you want to do things
42:09
differently. Did you feel different walk it
42:14
in that time? I mean, was it like a God?
42:17
Yes. God, yes.
42:19
Because when you go in, you know, it's like all the ladies
42:23
are looking at you like, oh, I knew she'd be back, pay up, you
42:28
know? You only frame a new pack of
42:30
cookies, you know? And it's like, I was ashamed.
42:34
I was embarrassed. I didn't want to be there, you
42:38
know. So I had a chip on my shoulder
42:41
for a while and but I was ready to make a change because I'm
42:46
sober now and drugs are widely available in prison.
42:49
I mean, you, it just costs a little more.
42:51
But that's not the life I wanted to live.
42:53
I truly saw no pleasure in it anymore, you know, even though,
42:59
you know, I might have been uptight because, you know, I'm
43:03
back here. I just had to work through that.
43:06
I had to sit in that emotion and know it wasn't going to kill me,
43:10
but get strengthened by it, you know?
43:13
And, and that's a good point too, cuz we don't talk about
43:16
this a lot, but I think it's important to talk about like,
43:19
how did you handle hard days in prison?
43:21
Cuz you know there's hard days in prison when even when you're
43:24
trying to do the right thing, when you're trying to get in
43:27
your case sober and you're getting into education.
43:29
But there's hard days too. Did you have any particular way
43:32
that you got yourself out of a rut?
43:35
Yeah, so music. Music is definitely my thing.
43:39
When you go in, you're allowed to purchase what's called a a
43:43
JP4 player. I don't know if you're hip on
43:46
that, but it's like just a little tiny tablet.
43:49
The only thing you can do on it though, is put music on it or
43:52
write emails to family through the JPay system.
43:55
There's no Internet access to it, but you have a catalog of
43:59
music you can choose from. Songs cost like $1.99 to 399,
44:04
you know? And then?
44:09
I had an MP3 player. I didn't.
44:11
I couldn't do emails on it. All we could do is download
44:13
music, but yeah, sorry I'm getting a little cough trying
44:19
to. Get rid of it.
44:20
Sorry. You've had bronchitis.
44:23
So music, of course. Reading, reading's always been
44:26
my love. You know, I read all the Game of
44:28
Thrones books. I've read all the Harry Potter
44:32
books again. You know, I fell in love with
44:33
this author named Vince Flynn, you know, So that was the thing.
44:38
And then for me, I'm not a writer, but if I was having a
44:42
day that like a day that I just had to get it out and let it go,
44:46
I would write and just write whatever was in my head and not
44:50
even read it. I would just write it out, get
44:52
it out. And, you know, right before it
44:54
was time for me to leave, I pulled out those papers and read
44:57
them and saw the growth within myself.
44:59
You know, it was just something motivating.
45:02
You know, this. Jessica when you got, how did
45:06
you figure out because you you were able to through was it
45:10
Jackson College that you were able to get, how did you get,
45:14
how did you figure all that out to be able to do that associate
45:17
degree stuff inside the prison. So I had been there about a
45:22
little over a year and excuse me, this is not good here.
45:28
All right. It's much better than the
45:29
Internet connection that we had. Yeah.
45:32
Yeah, yeah. Yeah.
45:32
OK. Sorry, yeah, in I think it was
45:42
like September of 2016. A Jackson College representative
45:47
came into the prison and told us about their their program is a
45:51
pilot program, Second Chance Pell Grant pilot program.
45:56
And his name was Bobby Bobby Beauchamp.
46:01
That's French. And I always call them
46:02
Beauchamp, but it's Beauchamp, Bobby Beauchamp and me.
46:06
Yeah. So he came in and helped us if
46:10
if you were called. So let me go back just a second.
46:13
In prison you have like, it's called a call out.
46:18
So you get a paper printed of all the events you have for that
46:21
day. The only way you can leave your
46:23
unit is if you get it signed by a Co You have to get signed out
46:27
and signed out from the next place before you come in and
46:30
turn that paper in every day and make sure you made your
46:33
appointments or whatever. But I might call out one day.
46:36
It was a meeting for Jackson College and I didn't sign up for
46:41
anything. So I was like, this is pretty
46:44
cool. Like I said that before my last
46:48
time I went to college, but I screwed that all up.
46:51
But when we get there, he tells us about the curriculum they'll
46:55
be offering a couple different degrees, business, arts, Gen.
46:59
studies. And I was so interested.
47:02
I filled out that FAFSA right there.
47:05
I qualified for the FAFSA in winter of 2017.
47:08
So January I began classes and it was just like it.
47:14
My situation turned from being in a prison to being in a live
47:19
in college situation. It's like your scale.
47:22
Yeah, it was like a college facility.
47:26
And at that point, you know, I had had that chip on my shoulder
47:29
and I realized, you know, I worked a lot because I was in my
47:32
head. So I worked a lot out within
47:34
myself. I kind of went back down to that
47:36
route, you know, that route that we buried, we all have that,
47:40
that cause, that reason why we do all these other things in our
47:43
lives. And for me, I had buried that
47:45
route with sex, drugs, unhealthy relationships and just that
47:51
lifestyle. You know, we put on that mask
47:53
and we walk out and everybody's like, Oh yeah, she's good, you
47:56
know? But you got that root buried in
47:58
there. So I was able to pay attention
48:02
to it, you know, pull out all those other things that I did,
48:05
which ended up being so much more shameful and embarrassing
48:09
than that original thing that now seems so petty.
48:13
So I had created a prison for myself in my head my whole life,
48:18
you know, I had been locked up in this prison and it just got
48:21
worse, especially being in a physical prison.
48:24
But while I was in that physical prison, I was able to break out
48:27
and free myself mentally, you know?
48:30
And my education had a lot to do with that.
48:33
Being sober, I had that void left in me and I filled it with
48:36
school and I was able to Start learning who I was and find my
48:41
identity through knowledge and not just the curriculum
48:46
knowledge, but with all the other women who were in the
48:49
courses with me. We learned together because it
48:52
was like our untold experiences, you know, came out through, you
48:57
know, our cohort just. When I'm sure it gave you
49:01
confidence, it started. That does a lot of different
49:04
things for you. And it's a deep thing that you
49:07
just said that you were you were locked up in prison, but you
49:09
freed yourself out of the prison of your own mind because.
49:13
And you know, a lot of that, like you said, Jessica, is also
49:16
timing. You were ready for that.
49:18
And you and you got really good grades too.
49:21
You, I mean, you graduated with high honors.
49:25
But I you talked about to the idea that this proud moment came
49:31
about you had your daughter. You you.
49:34
This was a real time for you kind of to show up, show out.
49:38
Show off that you had done this thing and I, if I remember
49:43
right, people were able to come see you graduate.
49:46
Is that correct? Yep.
49:48
Yep. So this was the pilot program.
49:50
Like I had said, they've done it.
49:52
So in Michigan, there's 31 prisons.
49:55
Only one of those 31 is for women, and it's supposed to
49:59
house 1800, but it houses 2200, so it's definitely overcrowded.
50:04
So there's a lot of strict rules about the things that they can
50:07
do. They were leery about even
50:09
letting the college program come in.
50:10
But they did. And in August of 2019, I, along
50:15
with sixteen others, there was 17 in our graduating class.
50:19
We all graduated with high honors by Theta Kappa, and we
50:24
had our graduation. So there's the auditorium.
50:26
In the prison, there's three sections.
50:29
One of the sections was for lost as graduates, you know.
50:32
And after everybody was seated, they did the ceremony and walked
50:35
us in. And so then the middle section
50:38
was for anybody who was in the prison and was attending school
50:43
or helped out in Jackson College, you know, they could be
50:46
there for their GED or whatever they were allowed to come.
50:49
And then in the other section on the other side of the room, our
50:52
family members were allowed to come and we were allowed to
50:55
invite 2 immediate family members.
50:57
And my daughter was the one, I didn't invite anybody else but
51:00
her. And when they called my name and
51:04
I got up and I walked across that stage, I shook all the
51:06
faculty's hand. And the last person on that
51:09
stage that I shook his hand was the warden, warden Stephen
51:13
Brewer. And when I shook his hand, I
51:16
just felt that, you know, I got my dignity, my worth back.
51:20
And then right after that, I ran to the end of the stage and it
51:24
was they let us take a picture. So there was a professional
51:26
photographer there for Jackson College and my daughter ran up
51:30
and she said I'm so acting proud of you, so loud, everybody.
51:34
And they roared the moment we got our picture.
51:38
And then afterwards they had set a little room aside and they had
51:42
like some kool-aid and some cakes.
51:44
Yeah, you know, but we got to be with our family.
51:47
That is so cool though. So cool.
51:50
It was so awesome. It was so awesome.
51:52
How far were you from the door of getting out when that all
51:55
happened? So August 2019, I still had,
52:02
let's see, 5-9 months I was getting out May May of 2015, I
52:09
mean 2020. So that graduation happened, and
52:12
then COVID happened right after. I can't imagine Jessica, you
52:17
know cuz prisons horrible. But I've, I've talked to some
52:21
people who were in prison when COVID happened.
52:24
And I. What was your experience like
52:27
with that? Oh my goodness, I have a whole
52:29
journal. Like I've just told you, I don't
52:31
journal. But when I.
52:33
OK. So in April, I start losing my
52:36
smell and my taste, you know, then my my nose was like, so I'm
52:41
like, I told one of the officers, this is the beginning
52:43
of this is April 2nd. And she said, OK, go to medical.
52:47
I go to medical. They take my temperature and
52:49
they take my blood pressure and they say, oh, you're OK, go back
52:53
to your unit. Right.
52:56
I'm leaving. My out date is May 10th.
52:59
May 10th was my out days and I go back to the unit and then
53:06
when you're in a certain unit you're about to go home.
53:08
Within 30 days of you going home, they move you to the the
53:11
go home unit, what it's called, whatever.
53:14
So I get packed and go over there and I'm there for a couple
53:18
days and then I have to take my COVID test before I go home.
53:22
So I go to healthcare and I did the COVID test.
53:26
It comes back positive. So that's who gets moved to the
53:30
hazmat unit. So they took a whole unit,
53:33
sectioned it off and the officers wore hazmat suits and I
53:38
got put in a room with another girl.
53:40
We were quarantining for 14 days.
53:42
At that time. I am just coming into her room.
53:44
She had already been in there for 10 days, almost done with
53:47
her quarantine, but they had to pack me in there.
53:49
Her quarantine started all over again.
53:52
It was ridiculous and I ended up not being able to go home on my
53:58
out day because of the COVID. I went home 18 days later.
54:02
They kept me 18. Days.
54:04
I mean, that had to feel like a lifetime when you know, you're
54:06
getting out and then it's 18 days later.
54:10
Oh, so terrible. I had five days.
54:12
I had five days later because mine happened to fall into that
54:14
Thanksgiving time. And so they nobody was working
54:17
on Wednesday, nobody was working on Friday.
54:19
So I think I got released on that money.
54:21
So I just and then they shut off all your communication when they
54:25
think you're going home. So I couldn't communicate with
54:27
anybody. It was like that.
54:29
Those five days seemed like five years, right?
54:33
And you know they should. That's the truth, isn't it?
54:35
This should be a law not to have to hold you.
54:39
It's awful. So let's talk about you finally.
54:42
Get out, you know? You finally.
54:45
Yeah. What?
54:45
Who's on the other side of that world for you?
54:49
So I have to back it up again. I know I keep doing that.
54:52
But while I was in, this girl came in Danielle.
54:56
And she, you know, was like, hey, I got this program you
55:00
should come to. You know, when you get out, you
55:01
should come to this program. I'm like, girl, I'm going home.
55:04
I'm not going to no program. I've been in jail long enough.
55:06
I'm not doing it. So she asked me about it dozen
55:11
times. I turned her down about a dozen
55:12
times. And so the last time she said,
55:14
okay, How about I just get you a mentor from this program and I'm
55:18
like, okay, You know, when you get a or, you get a visit.
55:21
When you get a visit, you get a cheeseburger and a pop.
55:23
Anyway, I'm down for that. So I get this mentor and she's
55:30
the retired probate judge for Jackson County.
55:32
And I thought she was going to come in like High Court, me
55:35
criminal. But we were equals.
55:37
We were chatty hens. She shared her life.
55:39
I shared mine. And she was the one who came and
55:41
picked me up from prison that day in a rainstorm.
55:44
You know, I ordered my clothes. And then by the time I got my
55:48
clothes, you know, go home clothes, they were too small.
55:51
So, like, my belly was popped out, my pants were tight, black
55:55
Dale shoes. It was just bad.
55:57
And we immediately stopped at McDonald's so I could change my
56:00
clothes. She brought me clothes, and I
56:03
chose to go to the program because I had realized, you
56:07
know, I had support there from people I didn't even know.
56:10
And also, if I kept going back to Detroit, to the same address,
56:14
the same places, people and things, I would have turned back
56:17
into that same mindsets and behaviors.
56:21
So I went to this program in Jackson.
56:23
I didn't even know there was a Jackson in Michigan.
56:25
I thought it was in Mississippi. But there's a Jackson.
56:27
There's about 30,000 people in Jackson.
56:30
And I went to this program called Thor.
56:34
It stands for Sheet Overcomes and Rises.
56:37
And it's not a recovery home or transitional home.
56:41
It doesn't have any signage on the wall.
56:42
It's a real home and it's it's a mansion.
56:45
There's enough for 12 women to stay there.
56:47
And I got to stay there by myself almost for like the first
56:51
seven months. I was the first female in the
56:53
program. Then I was supposed to do it,
56:56
but she had went on and moved with her son.
56:59
So I was doing this program alone until they got more women.
57:02
But that program allowed me to just sit and be in the real
57:05
world and he'll, you know, be outside.
57:10
Yes. When I got out, I'm like, Oh
57:12
yeah, I'm going to do all the things.
57:13
But then your shoulders are so heavy because that's an
57:15
overwhelming fear and tension and life piling on you.
57:20
But when you were inside, you said, oh, I'm going to do this,
57:24
this, this. And then sometimes when you get
57:26
out it, most of those things are impossible.
57:28
Like you can't get housing, you can't find a job.
57:32
You know, maybe you can get some education.
57:34
You know, you you have to go through this case work or that
57:36
case work or this therapist, your parole officer make all
57:40
these meetings. How?
57:41
I don't even have transportation, you know.
57:43
They just assume all your your family is still there for you to
57:46
support you. Yeah.
57:47
So then thinking about all those things, even now I'm feeling
57:50
overwhelmed. But I bypassed that that stage
57:53
in my life. But it's just so overwhelming.
57:56
It's a lot, yeah. And that's why the support, you
57:59
know, is such a big deal because if somebody does have support
58:01
from their family, you know, it's it's it pushes somebody
58:04
light years ahead. But if somebody doesn't have
58:06
support from their family, I mean, my gosh, it's a lot.
58:09
Yeah, and my daughter, the whole time I was in there, I used to
58:13
spend about $70.00 a month on phone calls and me and my
58:17
daughter. So like I said she I got locked
58:19
up right before she turned 16 and right before I came home I
58:22
found out she was pregnant. So I found out like March of
58:28
2020 that she was pregnant. And by then I had already
58:31
decided to go to Jackson and she was in Detroit.
58:34
So she I talked to her about it, and she said out of the mouths
58:38
of babes, I'm telling you, she said, Mom, how could you love
58:42
your how could you ever help my help me if you don't learn to
58:46
help yourself and love yourself? So that hit me like a ton of
58:50
bricks. Like this, This kid, all wise,
58:53
she was. She was 21 at that point.
58:55
But still, what were you doing at 21?
58:57
That's a wise statement, you know.
59:01
So she she just left me, you know, and and walked with me and
59:08
capture patience with me, you know, she still makes those
59:10
threats, Mom. If you ever go back that way, I
59:12
swear she knows she's fusing me so.
59:17
Jessica, let's talk about how you got into what you're doing
59:20
now. Because you know, I know it.
59:22
I know it fills you up, but I think it's kind of a funny story
59:25
how you actually had this all happen.
59:28
Yeah, this is pretty funny because people still talk about
59:33
this still within our organization.
59:35
So I was working for a program it's it was called Step Success
59:41
to every parole. And what they do is they mentor
59:44
returning citizens, you know as best they could, you know with
59:47
low funding in the community. So I had a a mentee I took him
59:53
to get his record expunged at Michigan Works here.
59:57
Nation Outside was having an expungement there, and this is
1:00:00
the first I had heard about Nation Outside and this was
1:00:03
actually. Like April of 21?
1:00:11
No, April of 22. Yeah.
1:00:14
Yeah, April of 22. So lo and behold, guess who's
1:00:17
there? Tony Gantt Nation, Outside
1:00:21
Policy Operations. So I take my mentee in.
1:00:25
He does his expungement. I ended up just for the heck of
1:00:28
it, doing, trying to do my expungement.
1:00:30
I talked to Tony for a bit, you know, and then I left.
1:00:34
Tony left me on a thumbs up in our last conversation.
1:00:37
This was our old school. He won't do that no more.
1:00:39
But I get a call back about two weeks later from a woman and
1:00:43
she's like, hi, we're sorry to tell you we can't help you with
1:00:46
your expungement. That was just went off.
1:00:50
I started cussing. I'm like, oh, I don't know.
1:00:54
I need this expungement. I can't find housing.
1:00:57
I can't get my life together. I got a good credit score.
1:00:59
I actually have a bank account. You know, I'm doing real good.
1:01:03
I need this. And she's like, wow, ma'am, I'm
1:01:05
so sorry. We we can't help you.
1:01:07
But you do sound like you'd be a great advocate for nation
1:01:09
outside. Have you met Tony yet?
1:01:12
And I'm like, yeah, Tony left me on the thumbs up.
1:01:14
She's like, oh, well, I'll have him call you back.
1:01:16
So she might have said a few other things, but we'll leave
1:01:20
that within the conversation. And then I actually ended up
1:01:25
talking with Tony and whatnot. Then I I met up with her.
1:01:28
She called me a little while later few days and said, you
1:01:32
know what, I never make those phone calls.
1:01:34
I just happened to be making that phone call that day.
1:01:37
And lo and behold, she's the executive director of Nation
1:01:40
Outside. So funny, So.
1:01:42
And she recommended you. The boss was not hired I.
1:01:46
Definitely got it. It's one of the best stores.
1:01:49
You cussed out the bosses. She thought you'd make a great
1:01:51
advocate, the nation outside. So then I I volunteered for like
1:01:57
a couple events, and then they hired me as an engagement
1:02:00
specialist. And then Tony trained me on
1:02:02
everything I knew. He introduced me to people in
1:02:04
the community. He introduced me to partnering
1:02:06
agencies like for housing and education and resources.
1:02:11
He introduced me to the mayor. He introduced me to, like, the
1:02:14
city commissioner, all these people, you know, the Chamber of
1:02:18
Commerce and, like, who I've built relationships with since.
1:02:21
So he was just educating me through this process.
1:02:24
And, you know, like I said, education is my thing now,
1:02:27
right? Yeah.
1:02:30
Yeah. So Tony, Tony was like, all
1:02:34
right, I'm going to let you do this event by yourself.
1:02:37
And he just dropped me in with no life jacket.
1:02:39
I might have had a life jacket. It was probably about halfway
1:02:42
full. But he helped me, you know, and
1:02:45
I mean, I did great and Tony was real proud of me.
1:02:48
And then I started running Jackson on my own and they, they
1:02:50
hired me full time. So I was an engagement
1:02:53
specialist and now I am the manager of engagement for the
1:02:56
entire state. So what nation outside is, is
1:03:01
I'll tell you our mission statements.
1:03:03
We are grassroots organization led by fully formally
1:03:07
incarcerated individuals. Our staff has a total of 500
1:03:12
plus lived years experience that means they've been incarcerated
1:03:16
a total all of us. And our mission is to drive
1:03:20
policy and practice reforms that build transformative systems of
1:03:24
support for justice impacted people.
1:03:27
And basically what we what that means is that we're on the the
1:03:30
back end of things addressing the barriers to reentry.
1:03:34
So when people come home from prison they can acclimate into
1:03:37
society better. So we work on things like voting
1:03:41
rights. In the state of Michigan, even
1:03:43
with a criminal history, you can vote.
1:03:45
The only way you cannot vote is if you're currently serving a
1:03:49
sentence. So if you're in jail awaiting
1:03:51
sentencing, you can vote and we do something called jail based
1:03:55
voting. We go in, we help the people
1:03:57
inside get registered, get absentee ballots.
1:04:00
Sometimes the candidates will come in so the people know who
1:04:02
they're voting for so they can actually get a chance to use
1:04:05
their voice, which is important. We also do ban the box
1:04:09
unemployment and college applications, and our main thing
1:04:14
we're doing right now is called their chance housing.
1:04:17
And what their chance housing does is it prohibits landlords
1:04:20
from discriminating against people due to their criminal
1:04:23
histories. And we all know housing is one
1:04:25
of our basic needs. So we are fighting 2 for now.
1:04:31
We've been working on it for two years.
1:04:32
We got a hearing, a committee hearing coming up.
1:04:35
Our bill, House Bill 4878, was dropped, introduced on June 29th
1:04:41
by Representative Abraham Ayosh with 20 cosponsors.
1:04:46
So we're moving forward, we're we're gaining support on that.
1:04:49
We have sign on letters. If anybody's interested in
1:04:52
checking this out, we're at nationoutside.org and you can
1:04:57
become a member. You can do some call to actions.
1:05:00
We have different things you can participate in in your
1:05:03
community. There's events, there's an
1:05:05
events page, chapter meetings. We have monthly chapter meetings
1:05:08
where we get together and talk about our initiatives and what's
1:05:11
going on in the community and how can we address that
1:05:14
together. And then we have events all
1:05:17
throughout the month. We have 10 regions, so we're in
1:05:20
Grand Rapids, Traverse City, Kalamazoo, Flint, Detroit,
1:05:25
Lansing, Jackson, Washtenaw County and Oakland County.
1:05:29
And our other group is a women's chapter.
1:05:32
So it's statewide. If you even spent one night in
1:05:35
jail and you're a female, this is the chapter for you.
1:05:39
Because the first hour we talk about initiatives and community,
1:05:43
community needs. And then the last hour of that
1:05:45
meeting, it's solely for the women who have been
1:05:48
incarcerated. So they can have a chance to
1:05:50
chat with each other and talk to each other about what they're
1:05:53
going through. And maybe find some supportive
1:05:56
sisters within that meeting that they can, you know, have
1:05:59
conversations with or get resources from, you know,
1:06:02
particular ones. Jessica I love that.
1:06:07
I mean all that stuff and that has to fill you up, all those
1:06:11
things that you're doing, because you know that you're
1:06:12
having a direct impact on people.
1:06:14
You know how important that is because you've gone through it
1:06:16
yourself. And those initiatives, you know,
1:06:20
those type of things, I think I've talked to quite a few
1:06:23
people from Michigan. I think Michigan's very well
1:06:25
organized. You know, I'd like to see more
1:06:27
of that in other states that's going on because I feel like
1:06:30
Michigan's got a really great leadership group that's really
1:06:36
taken, you know, a lot of responsibility just taking it by
1:06:39
the horns and and gone at it and.
1:06:42
I couldn't be more proud of you, Jessica, on what you've been
1:06:44
able to do because you've just you just it's not easy to just
1:06:48
take a a left turn when you've been on the right path or over
1:06:53
here on this path and you decided to take this path and
1:06:55
you did and you had to really give everything up to get what
1:06:59
you wanted. And it's it's impressive.
1:07:03
It's impressive. I also so for my bachelor's in
1:07:09
social work, I had to do my internship.
1:07:12
I interned with the mayor, and the mayor of Jackson is the
1:07:15
first black mayor in the city and his name is Daniel Mahoney.
1:07:18
He's such a great guy because he comes from here, so he knows
1:07:22
what the community, you know has issues with and he can address
1:07:25
them. Of course, he works from the
1:07:27
bottom to get where he's at. So he was my he he extended that
1:07:32
internship to me directly and the city manager, Jonathan Green
1:07:36
was my intern supervisor and wow was that such an.
1:07:40
I can't imagine. Yeah.
1:07:41
I mean, you're working right there with the mayor.
1:07:43
Some days I would sit there like they know me well and they know
1:07:46
I have a criminal history. They know where I come from.
1:07:48
They know me. But even besides that, you get
1:07:53
in your head and I'm sitting there some days thinking, when
1:07:55
are they going to find out I don't belong here?
1:07:57
You know what I mean? Foster syndrome.
1:07:59
Well, you know, Jermaine Wilson, who was a was a guest on this
1:08:03
show and he's been on a lot of different shows, but he actually
1:08:06
served time at Leavenworth and he is the mayor of Leavenworth
1:08:10
now. So just one of those, you know,
1:08:13
there's great stories all around and that's one of the reasons I
1:08:16
love this show of doing this show is because.
1:08:20
There's a lot of bad stories, but the good stories are really
1:08:23
good stories. It's like Jessica, your story,
1:08:26
Jermaine story. Those are stories that you hear,
1:08:29
those you think, OK it is possible if I I know it's not
1:08:33
easy. It's not going to be easy but I
1:08:35
can do it because Jessica did it or Jermaine did it and I think
1:08:39
it's inspiring. I I want to ask you though,
1:08:41
because you know, I ask everybody this at the end.
1:08:45
The interview is because you've had such.
1:08:51
Quite a It's just been a wild ride for you and you've lived
1:08:55
quite the life. What do you think one of your
1:08:59
biggest takeaways from where you've been to where you are
1:09:02
now? Like, I live just by realism, so
1:09:11
if you can't be yourself, you're going to get yourself into
1:09:14
trouble. The truth is going to come out
1:09:17
someday. You know all the things that we
1:09:19
push down inside of us like that route that I said, and we just
1:09:23
bury it, bury it. It's going to come out
1:09:25
eventually. So to to be your best self, you
1:09:29
literally have to do some internal cleaning and start
1:09:33
right there with your core before you can ever love
1:09:36
yourself as a person wholly and then love your family and then
1:09:40
love your community and then be a part of changing the world,
1:09:44
you know. I love that.
1:09:46
It's just that that's good stuff.
1:09:49
That's good stuff. I mean, that is really good.
1:09:52
I if if people want to get a hold of you, how did they get a
1:09:55
hold of you? Jessicanationoutside.org and our
1:10:01
whole team is on there if anybody's interested in
1:10:04
contacting us with any questions about our initiatives, our
1:10:07
policy change, or even just becoming a volunteer or
1:10:11
something you guys can do to supportusnationoutside.org My
1:10:16
Pictures on the About us page. I know I saw it picture.
1:10:20
And let's see on my side, I know for you guys out there
1:10:27
listening, you get something out of this.
1:10:29
And Jessica's story is great. Please go leave a review on
1:10:33
Apple or Spotify. Follow the show.
1:10:35
It's really easy. Just hit the bell on Spotify.
1:10:37
Drop down hit follow on on Apple.
1:10:41
Leave a review if you got time. It puts the show on steroids.
1:10:43
I'm not sure why. I don't understand the
1:10:45
algorithm, but whenever you guys do that, it really just pumps up
1:10:48
the volume. If you want to get a hold of me,
1:10:51
Brent cassie.com It's with a Ty, not a DYI wish I weren't growing
1:10:55
up. I was Shawn and David, but I am
1:10:57
not Ty. Brent cassie.com.
1:11:01
If you're looking for a book out there, I wrote one night my
1:11:05
success. You can find it on Amazon,
1:11:07
Barnes and Noble, and. As I used to say when I was
1:11:12
writing my emails back and forth from prison, stay strong.
1:11:15
I'll do this the same. And Jessica Henry, thank you so
1:11:18
much. Such a great story.
1:11:19
I hope you share this story all the time.
1:11:22
Thank you. I'm gonna.
1:11:23
I'm writing a book too. That'd be a good book.
1:11:25
I wanna read that one. Yes, and then probably a movie.
1:11:29
I wonder who would play me. Love to see that too, Marvel
1:11:32
Robbie. Margot Robbie's gonna be
1:11:35
playing. Jessica Henry.
1:11:36
Here we come. There we come.
1:11:38
All right, now I'm your success. In and out.
1:11:40
Thanks everybody.