Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Neil Stonechild: Deadly Saskatoon Starlight Tours

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Neil Stonechild: Deadly Saskatoon Starlight Tours · PNW Haunts & Homicides

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: He had no means of transport. He didn't have a
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: car or a bike, and public transit would have been
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: fairly limited at that time of night, especially in an
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: industrial area that was not particularly populous. So how and
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: why did he end up there? Despite what might seem
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: a charming nickname, nothing can prepare you for the horror
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: that is a starlight tour. Hi, Cassie, Hi, Caitlin, Hi,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: Creepy people, hellou Lou. This is PNW Haunts and Homicides
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: where we chat about true crime, the paranormal and all
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: things creepy in the Pacific Northwest or the.
• 0:58
  Speaker 2: P and W.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: If you're nasty, If you're nasty and we know you are,
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: and we also do a nasty Tarot reading at the
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: end of every episode for a little deeper insight into
• 1:08
  Speaker 3: our topic.
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: Is the tarot reading nasty? Specifically?
• 1:12
  Speaker 2: I feel like the true crame ones are they can
• 1:15
  Speaker 2: get They can get pretty nasty if they're not like
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: hopeful or feel like they're about the person the sad
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: thing that we're talking.
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: I completely lost what I was saying. Did you see
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: what just happened?
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: I one in the middle of a sentence, forgot what
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: I was talking. About and I tried to make where
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: its happen, and I was just like, I don't, this
• 1:40
  Speaker 2: is not making sense. I knew where you were going.
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: You like a general sense of it. Yeah, no, Taro read.
• 1:50
  Speaker 2: Sometimes they're nasty, sometimes they're not. Okay. I want to
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: rewatch that and just see that idea fly out of
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: my brain, Like I want to see the moment in
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: my eyes where I completely lost it.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: You're like, I don't what was I saying?
• 2:06
  Speaker 2: But anyway, that's you. That's my impression of you. Just now,
• 2:11
  Speaker 2: that was my impress I was just doing an impression
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: of you. Wow.
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: So I'm doing an impression of you doing an impression
• 2:19
  Speaker 1: of me.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: It's impression exception.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: Pretty meta.
• 2:24
  Speaker 2: Wow. Well, this isn't really a paranormal spooky episode. I
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: don't think unless you're surprising me today. No, and you
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: know what, I.
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: Hope that you are well stopped from the holiday.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: I am not opening. I have nothing, nor do I
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: want to drink because I drank for two days straight
• 2:46
  Speaker 2: and I am not feeling the best.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: Oh No, I've actually been on very good behavior and
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: this is my reward.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: I'm so proud of you. Thank you been on my
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: worst behavior. Literally, and I am so proud of you.
• 3:06
  Speaker 1: Hey, we said we.
• 3:07
  Speaker 2: Were taking a vacation, a break, a mini break, so yeah,
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: break hard. I breaked hard, so hard I broke my body.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: Well, cheers, humid are okay, I'm just going to start now,
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: I'm really gonna You can't stop me. We're listening Neil
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: stone Child. It's hard to know what to say about
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: this young man. How does one even approach the task
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: of adequately encapsulating all the multitudes that a single person contains.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: For decades, many of his loved ones have tried. His
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: older siblings Erica and Marcel, his mother Stella big Nell,
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: and younger brother Jason have frequently spoken fondly of the
• 3:52
  Speaker 1: seventeen year old that they knew to be friendly, outgoing
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: and caring. It's a bit dawn trying to put all
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: of the complicated facets of someone into words that do
• 4:07
  Speaker 1: justice to their unique complex humanity. Who was this person?
• 4:13
  Speaker 1: What was it like to know them? Neil was an
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: accomplished bantamweight wrestler and was even the inspiration for a
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: beautiful mural, a series of murals actually created by one
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: of his best friends, Jeffrey Crow at Kilburn Hall.
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: In the early nineties. That sounds really cool to you
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: have pictures. Yes, Oh wow, they're really unique. They are.
• 4:42
  Speaker 2: They're very colorful.
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: They really seem like, just looking at them at a glance,
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: like they really feel like like they're about something.
• 4:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, do you know what I mean?
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: I know, like all art is supposed to be about something, right,
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: but they just feel like they have like there's more.
• 5:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: I don't know how to like really put that into words.
• 5:09
  Speaker 2: That's what I was like having. I was trying to
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: say something to describe like what like what these are?
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: I don't know, and I can't do it.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: It's hard to like put your finger on what exactly
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: is like the right word for them.
• 5:24
  Speaker 2: They're beautiful, they're interesting. I'd like to sit there and
• 5:30
  Speaker 2: look at them more.
• 5:31
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: At the time of Neil stone Child's disappearance, two things
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: were true. He'd been attending AA meetings without fail for
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: some time, and he'd also been drinking on that fateful night.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: His personal experience trying to navigate a healthy relationship with
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: substance use and his Soto First Nation's heritage made him vulnerable,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: certainly to the.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: Pitfall of prejudice.
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: It's easy to see how those prejudices likely contributed to
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: both his untimely death and the widely criticized handling of
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: the inquiry that followed. Neil was about fourteen or fifteen
• 6:17
  Speaker 1: when he began to test boundaries. Not that I claim
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: to be an expert, but for both younger children and teenagers,
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: pushing limits is such a normal part of development and growing.
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: Up, right, and then like the beginning of high school age,
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: that's like especially I feel like.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I mean, at this point kind of where
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: our story takes place, he's seventeen, and so he's really
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: like beginning to kind of come into his own as
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: an adult. And part of what ultimately has to happen
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: is you really do like have to you know, find
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: your place as your own individual person in the world.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: It is it's rough times at certain ages. Evaluating potential
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: consequences isn't something that we do adeptly. It's often only
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: with the benefit of hindsight that young people.
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: See where they have aired.
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: Though his offenses eventually rose to a level classified as criminal,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: they were never characterized as violent. His juvenile record consisted
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: of breaking into entering charges, which on the surface, actually
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like sounds much scarier and far more serious
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: than it sounds like they were in his case, and
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: they had resulted in his placement or sentencing to a
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: group home for juvenile offenders. In particular, it's important that
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: there's access to resources that support their continued development, and
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: that when necessary, rehabilitative services are readily available. Neil seemed
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: to be trying to take positive steps in his life,
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: and nothing he'd done was something that he couldn't come
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: back from, especially in light of seemingly having honestly a
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: really great support system. He had a lot of friends
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: and family that were very close to him. They cared
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: very deeply about, you know, making sure that he was
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: safe and his needs were met, and that he knew
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: that he was loved.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: It's very important for a young adult. It is absolutely anybody, honestly,
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: like literally everybody.
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, Yeah, just for general peopling. That's that's a really
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: basic requirement. Cassie's Wisdom of the day. There you go, Yes,
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: the more you know. On November twenty fourth, nineteen ninety,
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: Neil stone Child disappeared. He was with his best friend,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: Jason Roy. According to a statement provided by said friend
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: five days after the disappearance, the pair had consumed the
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: better part of a forty ounce or four our friends
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: to the Great North. That's a one point four leader
• 9:29
  Speaker 1: bottle of vodka. Oh ada vodka. Yeah, that's a bit.
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: That's a bit. That's a bit. It's not a judgment.
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: It's more of an assessment of a task that I
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: could not personally probably undertake right. Jason Roy's report stated
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: that the pair had parted ways at around eleven thirty PM.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: According to Jason Roy, he had blacked out that night
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: and had no recollection after the point of their separating.
• 10:04
  Speaker 2: Okay, I mean, I know that happens, But did you
• 10:07
  Speaker 2: drink that much? Yeah?
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: If if you know, you have a night of you know,
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: kind of partying, heavy drinking, whatever you want to call it.
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: It wouldn't be until roughly a decade later that Jason
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Roy would change his statement. In his revised account, Jason
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: would state that when he last saw his friend alive,
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: he'd been bleeding profusely, a wound to his face gushing
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: blood as he was stuffed into a police cruiser handcuffed.
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: He stated that his friend Neil's parting words were, Jay,
• 10:48
  Speaker 1: help me. They're going to kill me.
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: Oh that's not good. No.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: Neil made that chilling statement on the very same night
• 10:59
  Speaker 1: of his parents that November evening, the temperatures were below
• 11:05
  Speaker 1: negative twenty eight degrees celsius or negative eighteen degrees fahrenheit.
• 11:10
  Speaker 1: I have no frame of reference for that, but it's cold.
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: I've never experienced anything remotely near that type of frigid
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: weather like, yeah, and I can only imagine that, like
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: especially like when you think about the wind chill, I mean,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: that's not only is that it's just so extremely cold,
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: but it's it's very, very dangerous. Yes, it's truly unfathomable
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: to me personally. That's a kind of cold that I
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: just it does not compute. Findings of a much later
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: inquiry found that on November twenty fourth, nineteen ninety, Constables
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: Bradley Sanger and Larry Hartwig responded to complaints of a
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: disturbance at a local seven eleven as well as the
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: snowburied Down's residential community, reportedly involving Neil stone Child. This
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: was shortly before midnight at eleven fifty one. It was
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: a handful of days later, on November twenty ninth, nineteen ninety,
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: that two local men, Richard Harms and Bruce Myers made
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: a shocking discovery. The pair, who were constructing a fence
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: on the property adjoining the Hitachi plant on fifty eighth Street,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: found a body lying face down in the snow. Renee.
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: I really wish I had looked up a phonetic pronunciation
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: guide something for your name. I didn't. You're a relatively
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: minor character in the grand scheme of things for me. Sure,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you're a nice fella. Rene Lagameder, at the time serving
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: as a constable, now a sergeant, was dispatched to the
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: scene and carried out a preliminary investigation. When the body
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: was turned over, there were a number of heartbreaking discoveries.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: Number one, the decedent's jacket sleeves were pulled down over
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: his hands, clearly in an attempt to keep his extremities warm.
• 13:30
  Speaker 2: However, possible.
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: Number two, and this is the fact that everyone specifically mentions,
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: and it's that one of his shoes was missing, which
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: I would argue is almost certainly never ideal, But the
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: official report goes a step further documenting a detail that
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: I found even more sad, the wool sock on his
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: right foot, which was the one that was missing. His
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: running shoe was so worn in the heel that only
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: that not only was his skin exposed, but it had
• 14:19
  Speaker 1: clearly become discolored by treading over dirt and gravel. An
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: autopsy was subsequently performed at Saint Paul's Hospital in Saskatoon,
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: which is thank god, It's like one of the most
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: fun words to say. It's kind of the only bright
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: spot in this I'm not gonna lie. The pathologist concluded
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: that the cause of death was hypothermia, which makes me
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: feel like maybe I could be a pathologist. You've probably
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: already guessed. This poor soul was later I identified as
• 15:02
  Speaker 1: Neil's stone Child. It would be made clear in hindsight
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: that it wasn't the first, nor would it be the last,
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: time that an Indigenous man, woman, or child would be
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: left out in the cold by law enforcement in an
• 15:18
  Speaker 1: intentional and incredibly cruel act. Though Neil's body had been
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: recovered from an undeveloped field in an extremely isolated industrial area,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the Saskatoon Police Services investigation into Neil stone Child's death
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: determined that there was no evidence of foul play. Officially,
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: his death has never been ruled a homicide.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: Okay, I mean I I'm sure you're going to tell
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: us more evidence, right, because the things you've told me
• 15:54
  Speaker 2: so far don't I can't remember anything sounding like he
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: couldn't have just wandered away.
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: But m.
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is usually not why we're here.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: So yeah, yeah, no, that's fair, that's a fair assessment.
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing, And I've heard a lot of accounts
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: from people that live in or around the area where
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: he was discovered and where he lived. I actually listened
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: to another podcast that they went and visited the field
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: where he was found. Neil had no reason to be
• 16:37
  Speaker 1: in that area where he was found. It was at
• 16:41
  Speaker 1: least twelve kilometers away by car from where he was
• 16:46
  Speaker 1: previously or last seen. You're not walking that that's very far.
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: It's almost eight miles at minimum. He had no means
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: of transport. He didn't have a car or a bike,
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: and public transit would have been fairly limited at that
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: time of night, especially in an industrial area that was
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: not particularly populous. So how and why did he end
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: up there? Despite what might seem a charming nickname, nothing
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: can prepare you for the horror that is A starlight
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: tour in the Saskatchewan, Manitoba and Alberta provinces of Western Canada.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Law enforcement became known for the practice of picking up
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: or otherwise detaining Indigenous people, in some cases for fabricated crimes,
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: only to later abandon them in isolated and often extremely
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: treacherous conditions. Why because racism. I just I don't understand it.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: I don't want to understand it. I feel like that's
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: the thing, is that it truly is one of I
• 18:04
  Speaker 1: just I can't really wrap my head around it, around it.
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: I know that rural law enforcement in a lot of
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: jurisdictions has there have been documented cases of like kind
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: of a similar practice, but in the case where somebody's
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: literally going to die of exposure.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: I can't. I can't.
• 18:29
  Speaker 1: I can't understand that.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: It's not okay anyway, It's not okay. Is that literally
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: the purpose of Is that why they're doing that? To
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: drop them off so they don't make it home. I
• 18:41
  Speaker 2: don't know. I don't know.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: It seems like anybody who lives in you know, these
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: somewhat smaller communities, and you know the time of year
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: that it is, you're a Canadian resident, you understand and
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: how serious it is to be out in those temperatures
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: I don't see how you could expect there to be
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: any other outcome. This is before cell phones, this is
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: before uber like. What could you possibly have thought would happen?
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: Certainly nothing good.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: That's the only end result I could see. Yeah.
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Most sources state the practice was first documented dating back
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy six, though the history of racism against
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: the indigenous population has certainly been documented for hundreds of
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: years prior to this, and in many places, literally on
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: multiple continents. Some have even stated that the horrific phenomenon
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of starlight tours has continued, though the most well documented
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: cases have taken place decades prior. And I don't think
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: it stopped because people stopped wanting to give starlight tours.
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: I think it stopped because enough of these were documented
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and enough of the information made it into the public
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: consciousness that it had to stop.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Why they call it that, that's terrible?
• 20:28
  Speaker 1: It is In any case, fatalities related to the starlight
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: tours have been documented with alarming frequency, and are thus
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: often collectively referred to as the Saskatoon freezing deaths within
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: that province. Of course, it goes without saying that this
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: type of behavior runs contrary to what many might envisage
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: as the mission of law enforcement to protect and serve. Seriously,
• 21:00
  Speaker 1: one Reddit comment provides an insightful summary of the practice
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: in all hostile views of Indigenous people, Colonial police institutions,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: and institutionalized indifference make the Starlight tourist shocking but not surprising.
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: They're part of a wider pattern of how colonial and
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: state institutions treat Indigenous people. There's a well established pattern
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: of abuses against indigenous populations in not just the United
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: States and Canada, but the world over. Neil's friend, Jason
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: Roy and his family were ultimately placed in an RCMP
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: witness protection program as a result of the shocking turnabout
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: in his testimony.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: Wow, that's intense.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: It would take thirteen years for an inquiry to be
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: launched into the death of Neil's stone child.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: Thirteen years? Yes? Did it only happen because he came forward?
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: And with the new information? Is that why? Or was
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: there another reason? That was a big part of it? Okay,
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: my god, it took that out there.
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: I believe that, Like I said, this was not an
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: isolated situation. And there are other documented cases and I'm
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: going to touch on another one of them and I
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: think I think that also played a part. During the
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: course of that investigation, the two officers, Constables Brad Sanger
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: and Larry Hartwood, were charged with unlawful confinement, despite maintaining
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: they had no contact with Neil stone Child on the
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: night in question and that they were not responsible for
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: his death. They literally, for over a decade were up
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: and down that they had not interacted with this young
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: man that evening. Okay, which is so easily proven false.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: The final report produced from the inquiry would profer significant
• 23:09
  Speaker 1: evidence that appeared to strongly contradict their assertion on both points.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, this is what I've been waiting for, some evidence.
• 23:17
  Speaker 2: Let's go.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: I'm barely even going to touch the tip of the
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: iceberg because there's there's so much and a lot. It's
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: frustrating because unfortunately, what really happened here is they were
• 23:32
  Speaker 1: like hypothermia bummer, and the initial investigation.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: Was so shitty.
• 23:41
  Speaker 1: That I I don't think I need to tell you
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: how this is going to play out.
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: I will, but I just I want to know what
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: you know. I know that there's more to this story,
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: and I want to know what you know, Caitlin. So
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: let's go tell me what you know.
• 23:56
  Speaker 5: I know, I don't know why I did this to us,
• 24:02
  Speaker 5: because it's important to it is, talk about it and
• 24:05
  Speaker 5: not let people get away with.
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: Bullshit literally murder. Yeah.
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: Both men were fired by the Saskatoon Police Department in
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: two thousand and four, though they were ultimately never criminally charged.
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: The city's deputy police chief, however, was charged with disreputable
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: conduct under the Police Act, uh, which I didn't see
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: a lot of details around what kind of a sentence
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: that carries. I can't imagine that that's anything, but that
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: just feels like something they did to appease the public.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: I was gonna say, that doesn't sound like anything like
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: a slap on the wrist type of thing.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: Yes, it really sounds like a big bag and nothing. Yeah,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: it's a big bag of Nope is what that is for?
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: Something so fucking serious?
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Like, Yes, it's kind of It reminds me in a
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: way of because I feel like it all goes back
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: to it's not just racism, but it's also like toxic masculinity,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: because I feel like it reminds me of probably more
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: in like the twenty tens twenty teams where we started
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: to see like formal charges being filed against fraternity members
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: for hazing pranks.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that went horrifically wrong.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: And I feel like it's like the environment can, in
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: some critical systemic ways, be very similar, unfortunately.
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: And this seems like it's not exactly the same, obviously,
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: but it does seem like a similar sort of hazing
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: type of situation, right it is.
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: It's like and I hesitate to even like compare it
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: to that or liken it to that, because that seems
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: in a way like it almost takes away from the seriousness.
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: But I feel like that also got really serious and
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: in death too, it did.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: And I feel like there are these very extreme situations
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: that have come out of what people thought was just like,
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: who won't it be funny?
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: Right, that's what it shows. Why would that ever be funny?
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Like, I don't think you understand comedy at all, dude, dude, bros.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: So remember Jason Roy, the best friend Neil was hanging
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: out and drinking with in the evening prior to his
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: disappearance late into the night. He stated that when he
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: had been questioned by police late that night, he had
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: given them a false name, Tracy Horse. Record show that
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: Constable Brad Sanger entered the following queries into the CPIC
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: or Canadian Police Information Center at eleven fifty six pm.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: Tracy Horse and Tracy Lee Horse. So to put this
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: into context, they show up and they're responding to a
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: disturbance at eleven fifty one that reportedly involves Jason Roy
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: and Neil Stonechild. Eleven fifty one. Five minutes later, he
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: is looking up the alias that was provided by Jason
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: Roy in the police database. Okay, so this is mere
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: minutes after he and Constable Larry Hartwig reportedly responded to
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: those disturbances at the seven to eleven and the Snowberry
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Downs Complex, both of which again were said to have
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: involved Neil. The two of them were together. So tell
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: me again, you never interacted with Neil stone Child. Oh okay,
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: they were together. You're literally looking up the fake name
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: that his best friend gave you. I see, Oh is
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: there another Tracy Horse?
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know, is there no?
• 28:25
  Speaker 1: Now, that alone seems like pretty compelling evidence that the
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: officers were lying when they denied coming into contact with
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Neil's stone Child that evening. I mean that right there.
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: I was like, it took me a while. I had
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: to read and reread the excerpt about this, and I
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: was like, who the fuck is Tracy Horse? Seriously, Tracy
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Horse isn't real, That's why. Yeah, why would they be
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: searching for his companions fo alias if they never interacted
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: with them?
• 28:58
  Speaker 2: I just yeah, clearly were they Were they going to
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: try to say, well, no, we interacted with Tracy Horse.
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: That's not the same. Yeah, how do you know how
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: Tracy Horse?
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, never heard of her.
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: Who's ever gonna know? How would they know? How would
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: they know?
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: But they fucking know because all of that shit's locked.
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: But the additional CPIC search query for Neil stone Child
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: that feels like very nearly, if not entirely, conclusive evidence
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: that the two officers did in fact encounter Neil on
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: the night.
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: Of his disappearance and subsequent death.
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: Why would you be looking up this person if you're
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: not in any way interacting with them. I'm sorry, I
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: have to call bullshit, Like they're not just ra or
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: perhaps horseshit?
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: So what was it? Tracy Horse Horse? But they don't
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: just like randomly no, like they're not los No, yeah, no, no,
• 30:04
  Speaker 2: that seems like a bad idea.
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: Yes, no, In fact, they can get into trouble for
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: just like randomly utilizing police resources that way, so which
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: obviously that would be a I'm sure that would just
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: be a conversation with the superior if it's.
• 30:22
  Speaker 2: Like the first time that happens. But yeah, I mean.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: They're not just supposed to be utilizing like those databases as.
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: Like, and it just happens to be a global search. Yeah, yeah,
• 30:34
  Speaker 2: like disappeared.
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Nope, that's I'm sorry, that's that's sess mm hmmm. No,
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: they fucking interacted with him, and that that log. I'm
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: sorry for legal reasons, I have to say, like I
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: wasn't there and I don't know what happened, but they've
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: come on, come on the receipts. Yes, Yet for decades,
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: both officers have maintained their innocence. In the first interview,
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: Hartwig gave more than ten years after the inquiry, my skin,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: I can feel it getting red and hot, he stated,
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I'm not known for the things I've done. I'm known
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: for the one evil thing I didn't do. What evil
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: thing I'd like you to name it? Yees, seriously, please
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: please tell us tell me more about how you didn't
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: interact with this kid. The inquiry initiated by the provincial
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: government concluded that stone Child had in fact been picked
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: up by the officers in question on the night of
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: his disappearance, but that this fact had not been recorded
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: in their log books or their memory banks. Additionally, it
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: was concluded that marx found on Neil's body, both on
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: his nose as well as his risks, could reasonably have
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: been caused by handcuffs.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: Oh. I was kind of waiting for that one, Like
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I felt like I knew there's going to be something
• 32:08
  Speaker 2: with handcuffs involved. Yep, yeah, because he was he was cuffed. Like,
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: how do you think you would get away with it?
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: It's going to be so clear if you handcuff someone like,
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: there's going to be marks, Like that's that's uncomfortable pain.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Well, it depends on how you It depends on how
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: you cuff them, right, because if you're doing it like
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: by protocol, I don't necessarily know that you would be
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: leaving marks, right.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I'm thinking I guess I'm thinking of someone
• 32:37
  Speaker 2: like trying to struggle to get out of them. I
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: guess as well. Yeah, I'm thinking, and that's fair.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: You know, I'm not well acquainted with the protocols for
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: handcuffing someone.
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: I guess, you know, we can ask my hand right,
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: And I'm bruise easy too, So I'm just like thinking
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: of me too.
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: I know, I would just be like all kinds of
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: like shades of purple and.
• 32:55
  Speaker 2: Blue metal around me. Is I'm going to get a
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: brun So I don't know, Yeah, I just yeah, it's
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: just sicky.
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: Well, And I think ultimately what it comes down to
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: is like if if there were marks on his body
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: that showed there was some sort of a struggle or
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: some sort of restraint, Yeah, that's one thing, because that
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: could be a lot of other things. But if they're
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: saying it's consistent with handcuff specific who has handcuffed the
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: police and.
• 33:24
  Speaker 2: He probably didn't handcuff himself like that seems very unlikely.
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would say so, I would say, so.
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: No foul play my b hole.
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: As in your butthole, your bunghole.
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: I'm in a great man. Yes, it is bs.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: No, no no, no, no, no, no no.
• 33:45
  Speaker 2: No, it's not bullshit. It's horseshit. It's tracy horseshit. It's
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: tracy horseshit. Ghs, oh, look at you. You're working overtime. Baby.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: The report even confirmed that relations between law enforcement officers
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: and the local First nation's population were problematic. You don't
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: say ultimately, However, the report stated that the death investigation
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: conducted at the time was not adequate to conclude what
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: the specific circumstances were surrounding his death.
• 34:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's one way to get away with murder.
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: Just you know, shitty investigation on the front end. The
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: conclusion of the inquiry has been heavily criticized. I think
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: there are plenty of valid reasons to be skeptical, but
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I found one that feels like sort of a Florida
• 34:47
  Speaker 1: man thing.
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: Oh boy, I can't wait for that.
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: I don't know, I'm not sure it's quite the smoking
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: gun that it felt like when I stumbled on it,
• 34:57
  Speaker 1: But I couldn't resist Florida Hello again. So this might
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: not even be one of the best examples, but it's
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: one that stuck out for me. So take for example,
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: doctor Emma lu who contributed their expertise as a witness.
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: While she was born in Saskatoon and attended university in Saskatchewan.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: At the time, she was working as a forensic pathologist
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: in Miami, Dade County.
• 35:29
  Speaker 2: That sounds familiar, like I've heard that in a few
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Florida stories.
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: Uh huh, yeah, because it's from Florida. She stated that
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: she did not have much experience with frozen bodies. No shit, Sherlock,
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: not in Florida, Miami Dade County. I don't know if
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: you're aware, they don't see a lot of snow.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe it freezers. I've seen that on shows.
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the time, murderers aren't going out of
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: their way to preserve the body or evidence.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: For you, it's like real sickos. That's why I've seen
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: it in TV shows. I hope it's not real. I
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: hope no one's ever ever done that before.
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: You know what, if it was on TV, it's because
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: somebody did do it before.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: I will tell you that. I'm just going to say.
• 36:21
  Speaker 1: So, we've brought in a forensic pathologist as a witness
• 36:27
  Speaker 1: that doesn't have experience with frozen bodies when that's the
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: very specific set of circumstances the inquiry is hoping to evaluate.
• 36:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's interesting choice. It is a choice.
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: I'm not well acquainted enough with her qualifications or expertise
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: to do much here. Besides, I don't know, just give
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: her section of testimony a side. I but it sort
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: of just seems like, why is she here?
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: I mean there are a lot of ways the people die.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: There are a lot of manners, places, situations where the
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: bodies are discovered. But how exactly is her testimony helpful here?
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: I really, I really want someone to explain to me
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: why make it makes sense?
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: Maybe all pathologists are just equally qualified and nothing to
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: see here. I just I don't I personally, I can't
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: see it. Not a pathologist.
• 37:31
  Speaker 2: I just I'm really upset.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: I'm really upset because I'm like, these are very, very
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: different and I but we have to move on.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: I mean, I could see why you're upset. Uh huh.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's honestly, it's half the reason that I had
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: to put my hair up today, because otherwise there was
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: a really good chance that I might rip out a.
• 37:51
  Speaker 2: Hunk of it. But don'pe you doing that.
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: Additionally, another recent case was fresh in the minds of
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: many from shortly before the Stone Child inquiry, which I
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: think makes it really difficult to parse out the complicated
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: power dynamics and emotions involved in reviewing the evidence in
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: cases like this, Officers Dan Hatchin and Ken Munson had
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: been incarcerated. When Darryl Knight survived and came forward regarding
• 38:27
  Speaker 1: his traumatic experience as a victim of the starlight tour practice,
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: this is sometimes Honestly, I think the worst part about
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: his case is that you see it being touted as
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: kind of an example of how officers are being held
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: to account. But for reference when they were sentenced, I
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: mean it was months. They received months of jail time
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: for trying to abandon a person in subzero temperatures in
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: an isolated area.
• 39:13
  Speaker 2: Seems like attempted murder.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, I think that should be attempted murder. Even
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: many years after the stone Child Inquiry concluded, troubling details
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: regarding law enforcement and the Starlight Tours continued to surface.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Even many years after the Stone Child Inquiry concluded, troubling
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: details regarding law enforcement and the Starlight Tours continued to surface.
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: And this is the part that doesn't necessarily relate specifically
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: to Neil's case, but this made me so fucking goddamn
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: bitchin mother fucking angry. I in the four year period
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: of twenty twelve to sixteen, the Starlight Tours section of
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: the Saskatoon Police Services Wikipedia page was deleted multiple times.
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: According to an internal investigation, it was determined that twice
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: said edits originated from a computer within the Police Service.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: The call is coming from inside the house.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: A spokesperson for the force denied that the removal of
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: content was officially approved by the force, by the service,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: by any official body. According to a report released in
• 40:40
  Speaker 1: March of twenty sixteen by The Star Phoenix, a quote
• 40:44
  Speaker 1: police spokeswoman acknowledged that the section on starlight Tours had
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: been deleted using a computer within the department, but said
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: investigators were unable to pinpoint who did it. The police
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: spokeswoman stated that the force is working to and I'm
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: going to quote because I'm sure should not saying this
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: move forward with all of the positive work that has
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: been done and continues to be done that came out
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: of the Stone Child inquiry. And all I have to
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: say is that bad Apple is lucky that the IT
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: protocols of the Force only keep logs of specific computer
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: data for up to thirty days unless it's deemed necessary
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: for some specific reason.
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: Okay, so they knew, they knew, they could narrow down
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: the IP that this person is using, but they can't
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: narrow it down to device or anything more specific than
• 41:41
  Speaker 1: police station.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Right. I mean, I bet they know who did it.
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: I actually I looked at an interview that was done
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: with I think it was a college graduate student who
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: was commenting on it, and it sounded I believe him.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: I believe him, and I think this wasn't somebody that
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: was necessarily affiliated with the department. It was somebody who
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: was like, this is what the IT protocol is. There's unfortunately,
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: there's no like the cats out of the back. We
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: know that it came from within the department, but the
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: window of time for us to determine who specifically or
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: like narrow it down further, it's it's.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Gone, right and there's no way to get it. But
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: I just I feel like the people who are in
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: the department, Oh okay, I see what you're saying. Yeah,
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: I see what you're saying. Yeah. Like, I just feel
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: like they have to know who did it. I don't know.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like it happened twice, so either there's one
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: person and they're probably not somebody that is operating underneath
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: the radar. It's probably a known commodity. You know, they
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: are probably aware that this person is maybe problematic, or
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: there's two people that are you know, who knows, I
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: don't know. Neither of those things is good.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: They are not going to give it up, though.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: So bad actors, particularly those in positions of power, move
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: in our world knowing that many will partake in their misdeeds,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: some directly, some will remain indifferent, and far fewer will
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: oppose them or take any real action. But indifference can
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: be very dangerous, and in a way, doing nothing can
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: be violenced too. Take the example of a disabled Indigenous
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Manitoba man who was essentially ignored to death. I hate
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: that at the hospital he remained in the waiting room
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: for thirty five hours. And this is the most racist thing.
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: I mean, there are so many racist things, but it's
• 44:06
  Speaker 1: the most racist thing that I've read all day today,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: and I've read it so many times. The hospital staff
• 44:13
  Speaker 1: assumed that he was drunk and passed out. Assumed it's
• 44:21
  Speaker 1: like the cruelest stereotype because we brought the fire water right.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: It's like we introduced.
• 44:30
  Speaker 1: This to their happy, beautiful way of life, and then
• 44:36
  Speaker 1: we shamed them for.
• 44:38
  Speaker 2: It because we're ashamed of ourselves, Caitlin, as we should be.
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: The hospital staff assumed that he was drunk and passed out,
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: only to later discover he'd actually gone into rigor mortis.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, I mean, is it standard to just
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: leave a drunk, passed out person in a er waiting room?
• 45:03
  Speaker 2: Is that what you said? It was? Yep, it was
• 45:06
  Speaker 2: the hospital without just checking on them. I mean, anything
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: can happen if you're drunken pasted out too, like yep,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: like choke on your own, bombit or some shit like
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: check on exactly, check on the person.
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: Like, regardless, this is still a fucking person.
• 45:24
  Speaker 2: I feel like, I feel like I'm I.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Feel like I'm taking crazy peals.
• 45:28
  Speaker 2: Well, and they were clearly trying to get help if
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: they ended up in an er waiting room, so like, yep,
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: fucking help them. Yeah, that's what you're there for.
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like it takes a special type of cruelty
• 45:44
  Speaker 1: and indifference and evil to specifically drive someone out to
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: the middle of nowhere in conditions that you know could
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: be fatal. But this is just truly like the definition
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: of neglect. There were so many, so many cases, and Cassie,
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: they didn't they didn't just do this to boys. They
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: didn't just do this to adult men.
• 46:11
  Speaker 2: I read about a pregnant woman. Wow, that's extra fucked.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: It's so horrific because they came up with like a
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: special like it has its own like subcategory, the Saskatoon
• 46:26
  Speaker 1: freezing deaths. So this happened enough times with enough frequency
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: to enough people that there are survivors of it. But
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: there are also enough documented fatalities that it like like
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: it has.
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: A name that's just so horrific.
• 46:45
  Speaker 1: It probably goes without saying at this point, but I
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: cried a lot through the course of putting this case together.
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: I remember one night I was writing this up and
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: the cover page of the report that the inquiry produced,
• 47:03
  Speaker 1: it's a crime scene photo of Neil.
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: The cover page, Okay, you.
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: Can see the Hitachi like the manufacturing plant, their industrial space.
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: You can see that in the background.
• 47:22
  Speaker 2: Wow. And I had to close the office door because
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: I just I.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: Was like, this isn't going to be I'm not going
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: to cry in a way that like it was full
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: ugly cry and that's okay, And I feel like I
• 47:39
  Speaker 1: needed to do that because the idea that someone would
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: be so cruel it's never okay to hurt another human, right,
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: But I feel like so many of us can understand
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: kind of in some way, we can understand where maybe
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: you are pushed to the edge and you.
• 48:00
  Speaker 2: Do something you know, horrific. I don't know. I'm trying.
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: I'm struggling to put into words because I feel like,
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: if you kill someone with a gun, like you killed
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: them and I hope that they're suffering. Is I hope
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: that doesn't last long? Yeah, But for somebody to die
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: of hypothermia.
• 48:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's like torture, it is.
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, and he was a kid. I mean to
• 48:29
  Speaker 1: just say, like, I don't even care enough to actually
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: kill you. I'm just gonna leave you. I don't something
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: about that. I feel like it's like I don't even
• 48:41
  Speaker 1: care enough to kill you. Yeah, I'm not even gonna
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: do it myself.
• 48:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: Maybe that makes no sense.
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: I just know it makes total sense to me because
• 48:50
  Speaker 2: it's like you're leaving them knowing that they're going to
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: be suffering.
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: I think that's what I'm trying to get it. And
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: I feel like maybe I'm going about saying it the
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: wrong way because part of me is like I think
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: some of us can understand what it would be like if,
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: like in a moment of like passion where you like
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: fire a gun at someone. I don't ever want to
• 49:12
  Speaker 1: be in that position, and I hope that no one else.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Obviously somebody is going to be in that position someday,
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: but like, but to just be so callous, it's just
• 49:23
  Speaker 1: so ugly. It's so ugly, and for it to be
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: someone who is supposed to be serving this community is
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: just yeah, to be honest, I think because so much
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: related to this story, it doesn't seem to offer the
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: outcome that we would hope for. I really struggle to
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: figure out a way to conclude this, and I for patrons,
• 49:50
  Speaker 1: I'm I'm definitely going to be continuing a conversation related
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: to murals, particularly some in rehabilitation or correctional facilities. Oh,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: I like that randomly, it just sort of popped up.
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: It's random. It's random because it's like from all over
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: the world too. And I might go and look for
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: some more to add in, but I guess the rest
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: of us have to fall back on finding some sort
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: of bright side with the tarot reading. I guess I
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: guess I'm saying, let's hope it's a good one this week,
• 50:27
  Speaker 1: not a nasty one.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's all I got for you.
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: I mean this, Yeah, I think maybe that's the worst part.
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: Though his family knows what happened, but like it doesn't
• 50:40
  Speaker 1: feel finished, it doesn't feel like and they never got
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: justice for this and they never will.
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's exactly what was just going through my head,
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: Like there wasn't any real justice at all, even if
• 50:52
  Speaker 2: you know what happened.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: I think that was the hardest part is that so often,
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: you know, I do talk about cases where it's like,
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: you know, eventually it feels like there's something that feels
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: like a silver lining, and I just.
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: It's so sorely lacking here.
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: I can't I can't promise that like every week, I
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: can't promise that they're all going to end well. But
• 51:21
  Speaker 1: like this one just seemed like it just got worse
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: and worse and worse no matter what I no matter
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: what ankle or what right where I tried to go.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: It just I mean, I do see one bright spot
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: is like obviously you're talking about it. People know, yeah,
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: and they know that people know, so hopefully it doesn't
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: keep happening like now. Yeah, But I mean I know
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: a lot. Obviously, I know the world we live in, y'all.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: I know that a lot of terrible things are happening.
• 51:54
  Speaker 2: But it's important that you know, at least people know,
• 51:57
  Speaker 2: Like it's not being completely buried and hidden, and there's
• 52:00
  Speaker 2: a light on it, so watch the fuck out.
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: That's kind of where I land on this too. It's like, well,
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: it doesn't It's not always going to have a nice
• 52:10
  Speaker 1: neat ending. And I guess I just have to live
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: with that us too.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: Thanks. I want to feel bad for.
• 52:18
  Speaker 1: Us, and then I think, you know what, think about
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: what their family is going through.
• 52:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people have to live with a lot worse.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: That being said, we should all be taking care of
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: our mental health because we don't want we don't want
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: to become monsters.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, I know we call you guys creepy people,
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: but don't be like that creepy, you know, I mean creepy,
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: but not like a monster. Don't be a monster unless
• 52:45
  Speaker 2: it's a cool monster.
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: I don't know, like a sparkly vampire or something.
• 52:50
  Speaker 2: Oh oh my god, well OK, yeah, pull out your deck.
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: Let's see what we get. Is there hope for future? Tarot? Oh? Taro? Wise,
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: Tarot sending vibes thinking about like I hate to say,
• 53:12
  Speaker 2: like I don't want these people's deaths to like what
• 53:15
  Speaker 2: is that like like in vain? In vain? Yeah, but
• 53:19
  Speaker 2: like it sucks that anybody even had to go through
• 53:22
  Speaker 2: this all.
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: Like I don't want I know, I want to live
• 53:26
  Speaker 1: in a world where that, like things like that just
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: don't have to happen. If that makes sense.
• 53:32
  Speaker 2: They don't have to happen, is the problem. Yeah, I
• 53:36
  Speaker 2: feel like that's what I feel like.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: I'm glad we're on the same page.
• 53:39
  Speaker 2: There. Actually very easy for that type of thing not
• 53:42
  Speaker 2: to happen. Say more, take them home, yeah, yeah, no,
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: for real, don't pick them up at all.
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: And honestly, honestly, I feel like I'm glad they got fired,
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: and they should be, because if they looked up Neil,
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: they probably should have realized that he should not have
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: just been loose. I'm sure he had a curfew. I
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: didn't see anything specifically about it, but typically when you
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: are living or supposed to be living in like a
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: facility for juveniles, that's right, they should have taken him
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: back there at minimum seriously, because like you could drop
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: him off somewhere and he could like if he's.
• 54:30
  Speaker 2: A criminal, you know what I'm saying, Like, you're just
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: going to drop him off in the streets and he
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: could run across any old person and right.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: If he's if he's really such a juvenile offender, take
• 54:44
  Speaker 1: him back to the group home where they are trying to,
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: you know, assert some rules and.
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: Have some super I imagine there's.
• 54:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and I don't know that where he had been
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: placed was necessarily a great situation. But I'm just saying
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: like what they did was horrific in so many ways obviously.
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: Just like completely wrong from like logical what.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: You everything about that didn't make sense and was terrible?
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, those are the vibes I send.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Okay, great, Okay, tell me like left, right, middle, like
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: where you feel left?
• 55:26
  Speaker 2: Leftish, leftish okay, leftish, like a little bit left of center,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: or like.
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: More left, more left, more left?
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: Okay? Oh okay, this is the two of sword, my gosh, okay,
• 55:45
  Speaker 2: two of swords. We know this one. Well, bitch is blindfolded.
• 55:51
  Speaker 2: That makes sense, not looking, not looking at things, ignoring things.
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's really true. Maybe just deleted it from your
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: Wikipedia page.
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: Wow, Okay, I think that's like a mole on the
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: RPNW deck that has all the I think it is. Yea,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: it's got a mole coming out of.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: A hole, a mole. I'll read from the P and
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: W book first.
• 56:16
  Speaker 2: Oh, okay, fancy we get the poem.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: Keywords are indecision, difficult choices, confusion, and stalemate.
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: Didn't you say something about confusion, like right before you
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: pulled this card? I sink like you literally used that word.
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure acting with incomplete information and blindness.
• 56:40
  Speaker 2: Could it be more on the mole's nose?
• 56:43
  Speaker 1: I just don't think it could be. Actually, the mole
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: stopped digging as she sensed a change in the soil ahead.
• 56:51
  Speaker 1: To one side, the earth was dryer and potentially more stable,
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: but to the other side, the dampness might mean more
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: abundant selection of worms and slugs. Maybe the roots in
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: that direction would keep the tunnel stable, or maybe she
• 57:09
  Speaker 1: would go deeper where the soil was more densely packed.
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: She wrinkled her nose and rested, paralyzed with indecision, her
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: mind sniffing down the infinite branching paths that the future
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: tunnel before her could take, But she couldn't deliberate forever.
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: The mole made a choice and resumed digging, taking the
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: first blind steps in her journey onward.
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: H Yeah, it just makes me think of like choices
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: and you make your choices, and you know, I feel like,
• 57:42
  Speaker 2: you know the consequences of the choices that you make
• 57:45
  Speaker 2: to drop someone off in the freezing cold, which is like,
• 57:48
  Speaker 2: that's what we've been talking about.
• 57:49
  Speaker 1: Keywords are combined resources, courage, faith, friendship, conflict, and balance.
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: In some tarot decks, this art depicts a blindfolded woman
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: holding two swords crossed over her chest. Two's generally signify
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: balance or conflict, as well as pairing. I think of
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: the two of swords as the blind faith card because
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: it can represent courage and making decisions based on your
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: own truth and in some cases, spiritual guidance. The upright, too,
• 58:23
  Speaker 1: can symbolize balancing the right and left hemispheres of your brain,
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: combining intuition with intellect, which I would argue both were
• 58:33
  Speaker 1: missing in this case. Yeah, that was kind of the
• 58:35
  Speaker 1: point I wanted to make. We're like, we're lacking both
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: empathy and intelligence.
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: It was very there was a big imbalance and a
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: lot of things.
• 58:44
  Speaker 1: Drawing this card may mean you must make a decision
• 58:47
  Speaker 1: and need to call on both. This two can also
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: advise you to take off your blindfold and look at
• 58:53
  Speaker 1: a situation. Honestly, do we even need to We already
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: got it. I know exactly, you already made that point.
• 59:01
  Speaker 1: Sometimes it do be like that. In a reading about money,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: the Upright to recommends trusting your own wisdom and inner
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: guidance in a financial matter. Pay attention to your intuition
• 59:12
  Speaker 1: as well as your logic. If the reading is about
• 59:15
  Speaker 1: your job, you may be confused or conflicted about a
• 59:19
  Speaker 1: work related issue.
• 59:21
  Speaker 2: Who deleted?
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: We don't know who.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: Exactly?
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: Oh Cassie too?
• 59:29
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah too? And yeah, so twice it was deleted yes,
• 59:35
  Speaker 2: and then wasn't there two officers? It was yes?
• 59:39
  Speaker 1: Also that yes, two friends. But it was twice that
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: it was documented as specifically having come from within the
• 59:49
  Speaker 1: police department. It was deleted more times than that.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Oh, I see.
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: I think it's to tifically document two cases from within
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: the department.
• 59:59
  Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, two is a significant number I feel like
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 2: in this it is.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: In a reading about love, this card suggests listening to
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: both your head and your heart. It can mean you
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: and your partner hold conflicting perspectives, or that you're trying
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: to resolve differences and find harmony. I feel like the
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: reverse interpretation is so similar and it has parallels too.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 1: It I feel like specifically talks about i'll read. I
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: feel like this is the most applicable. But if the
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: reading is about your job, the reverse two represents confusion, indecision,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 1: lack of information, or conflicts regarding your work. It can
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: also warn that colleagues aren't reliable or trustworthy. Oh, you
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: need to look hard at something you don't want to see.
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 2: Take a look at the mirror. Yeah, that's the perfect one.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Just the blind The blind fold alone literally is just.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 1: Well, there's so much about this case, because as it
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 1: turns out, with something like this where it's it's part
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: of like a greater like series of occurrences, there's just
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: there's so much and there's probably nowhere near as much
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: information as there should be, just given that it's like
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 1: this is about you know, it's about power dynamics, it's
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: about racism, it's about you know, Indigenous people and how
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: they relate with their community and law enforcement. But one
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: of the cases, and it's often kind of referred to
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: as sort of the first documented case of the Starlight Tours.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: It dates back to nineteen seventy six, which is the
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 1: bi centennial here in the USA Boom America. What do
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 1: you mean we just had a nice explosion day. Yeah,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: we had explosion day. Yeah, I know. It's it's interesting.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't really think about this case in connection with like,
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 1: you know, a lack of you know, national pride or anything.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: But it's good timing, I guess. Yeah.
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But that initial case and just the timing of
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: it that it lines up with like literally the independence
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: of the United States as a newly born nation as
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: it were, I was like, wow, interesting, that is interesting.
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: I don't know, maybe maybe I'm looking too hard for
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 1: some sort of synchronicity there. But the part that really
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: got me is those officers weren't fired. I mean back
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 1: in seventy six. Maybe none of us are surprised, you know, yeah,
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 1: but they were basically like docked two weeks pay, And
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Was that slap on the wrist thing.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 1: Yes, slap on the wrist is the exact words that
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: were used over and over and over and over and
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 1: over and over and over and over in connection with
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 1: this case, but specifically that incident relating, you know, back
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy six, and it's just like, have we
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: learned nothing?
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 2: Will we ever learn something? I'm going to need them
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: to start issuing some heavy duty spanking, you know what
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: I mean?
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, like I think we might need a paddle, Yeah.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 2: Like some sort of biked device. No that's yeah. No,
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: no actual torture, but like metaphorically.
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: Right, like I'm I'm over the whole slap on the
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 1: wrist era.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 1: Oh my gosh, this one was a lot.
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 2: Thank you for shining a light down the mole hole though.
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 2: Oh they can't stay hidden down there. I know, it's
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: not fair. Honestly, it just made me think of like
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: everything that's going on with like immigrants being like randomly
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: deported to different countries and left there, and like that's
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: not even like where they live, that's not their home,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: So you're basically doing the same thing. It's just dropping
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 2: someone off elsewhere where they can't get back.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Honestly, that makes you, I know, because I feel like
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 1: it's subconsciously maybe I don't. I don't think I could
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: go there in my head, but I feel like part
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 1: of me was like kind of in a way like
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: subconsciously like drawing that parallel and just feeling like so upset.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 2: Because it's like it's still happening, just in a different way,
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 2: in a really really horrific way.
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: Because this is like the difference is that, like in
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 1: these cases it was like a Okay, it's like that
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: stereotypical like, oh well, these are bad apples and they're
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: you know, they're doing this when it's not like state sanctioned,
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: and what's happening here is being sanctioned by the state, it,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: you know, if not in all cases, by the people.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: And I don't want to live here anymore. I don't
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: want to live in this reality.
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean all we can do is just keep
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: pointing fingers at it. Yeah.
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: Oh, No, matter what we do, this always just gets heavier.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: This one was like really intense. I feel like we
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 2: did two back to back, like Ghosty and then Fun
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: Movie one, so we kind of were due for a more.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 2: I mean, I said, it was very good to talk
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 2: about and get it out, and it's important. Should we
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: do it? Well, let's do it. Have a creepy ass day.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: We'll see you next Tuesday or someone will.
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, one of our besties be out.
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 1: A mole hole, similar to a butthole, but for moles.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: What what what was it? No, I was trying to
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: think of what I said earlier about your bee hole
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 2: about Yeah, what was I even saying? Substicious? No, suspicious?
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 2: What is it?
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 4: Suspicious circumstances? What what's the saying, Caitlin help me, Oh.
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: Because they were saying, no foul play, no foul play,
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: my mole hole