Latest / Booked On Rock with Eric Senich / [EP 410] “What If You Woke Up a Rock Star?” with Charles Harvey

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[EP 410] “What If You Woke Up a Rock Star?” with Charles Harvey · Booked On Rock with Eric Senich

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: There's two different consciousnesses and there's one body. If one
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: of them is existing, does that mean that the other
• 0:08
  Speaker 1: one just doesn't exist? So Mike is concerned that if
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Joe comes back, Mike will no longer exist. And yet
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: the band needs Joe to come back for his skill
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: playing guitar. We're totally booked. Rock and roll! I think
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: I'll leave you to your reading. Little Hans says it's
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: time to rock and roll. Rock and roll! We are
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: totally booked.
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: Welcome back to Booked on Rock. Conversations with authors, musicians,
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: and insiders revealing the stories behind classic rock's greatest songs, albums,
• 0:43
  Speaker 2: and artists. In this particular episode, we're going to get
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: into the fictional aspect of rock and roll. And if
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: you enjoy this episode and you want more rock stories
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: after this episode ends, just join the Booked on Rock
• 0:56
  Speaker 2: email list for new episodes, author interviews, and the stories
• 0:59
  Speaker 2: behind the music delivered straight to your inbox. Sign up
• 1:02
  Speaker 2: for free at BookedOnRock.com. Now on to our show. Our
• 1:06
  Speaker 2: guest is author Charles Harvey. His novel is titled Xylene X-Band,
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: a fictionalized chapter in the history of X-Band. This takes
• 1:16
  Speaker 2: us into the world of an 80s rock band where
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: a brilliant but troubled guitarist undergoes a dramatic personality change
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: that raises some fascinating questions about identity, talent, and the
• 1:27
  Speaker 2: pressures of rock stardom. Charles, thanks so much for coming
• 1:30
  Speaker 2: on the show.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Well, thanks for having me, Aaron.
• 1:33
  Speaker 2: The dedication is to people who discover they're stuck doing
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: something they hate because they're good at it. Is that
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: in some ways the central idea behind this novel?
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: Well, it is, actually. The guitarist, Joe X, is a
• 1:52
  Speaker 1: brilliant guitarist. But the process of making music, recording, marketing, producing,
• 1:59
  Speaker 1: you know, that real... aspect of rock and roll really
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: screws him up. And then he starts compensating by being
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: over meticulous and picking everything apart. And his attitude, he's
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: suffering a lot of psychosomatic illnesses. And it's just the
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: job is really getting to him. He's really trying really hard,
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: but it's killing him.
• 2:28
  Speaker 2: Well, set up the story for us. Who is Joe X?
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: What X-Band is facing at the start of this story?
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: And what happens that turns his life upside down?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: At the very beginning of the story, X-Band is recording
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: one of the last songs to fulfill the third record
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: of their three record contract. And this is important because
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: they want it to be good so that there'll be
• 2:56
  Speaker 1: offered another three record contract. Um, and so they're there,
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: they've done recording, they're mixing now. And, um, uh, you know, the, the,
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: the mixer, Sam says to Joe, you know, why are you,
• 3:14
  Speaker 1: why are you sweating this so much? You're all set
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: for the rest of your life. And him saying that,
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: really triggers a response in Joe and he ends up
• 3:25
  Speaker 1: having a seizure and falling down and really being unconscious
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: for a brief period. And then he wakes up and
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: when he wakes up, he believes that he is Mike Smith,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: a Harvard graduate, and that he doesn't know how to
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: play guitar and he doesn't know any of the people
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: and he doesn't know anything. It's like he really, was
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: Mike Smith. And so, um, that this is the challenge
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: then is, um, you know, they don't want to tell the,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: the production company because then they're definitely not going to
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: get a three record contract. And so they, the band
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: is kind of thinking, well, we got to keep this quiet.
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: We can't let anybody know. And, and, uh, you know,
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: my original idea was that, you know, it might be
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: some kind of slapstick gags and, and, uh, and so on, but,
• 4:20
  Speaker 1: you know, I ended up really taking a more serious
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: sort of dramatic route. And I mean, there's comedy in the,
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: in the book, but yeah, so it takes more of
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: a dramatic route. And so really that that's the premise.
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: The premise is that you've got a guy in Joe
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: X's body who thinks he's somebody else. And, you know,
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: he's trying to muscle his way through. Now the interesting
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: thing is that he can't play guitar, but he loves music.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: the life and he loves the business and recording mixing and,
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: and he just really gets in and his, his enthusiasm
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: for it actually is infectious. And the other members of
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: the band who had really kind of, they were getting
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: kind of burnout and seeing his enthusiasm, they started getting
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: more enthusiastic about it. And then there, there's a whole
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: different story about, um, uh, part of the story with
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: his wife because Joe is married. And his relationship with
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: his wife was he was like over controlling, manipulative, bad guy.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And it really was kind of a female fantasy, which
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: is what would happen if you're you're, you know, jerky
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: husband woke up and was suddenly a great guy. And
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: so that so there's there's this thing where the wife, Angie,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: starts to develop and and. you know, open up more
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: and become more independent and assertive and, and, you know,
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: grow as a person because now she's not being confined by, uh,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: Joe X. And so that, you know, is arguably half
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: the story between the two of them.
• 6:01
  Speaker 2: And what about the other members of X band? Talk
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: about them, what each of them brings to the story.
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: Ed is a childhood friend at Reddington. He's a childhood
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: friend and, and he plays the drums. And, um, he,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: his sister is actually is Joe X's wife. So, so, uh,
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: they have that, you know, the connection. Um, and Ed is,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: and one of Ed's memorable features is that he's very tall.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: He's six foot seven. And, and he, so he stands
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: out and, um, it's kind of a running gag too,
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: between the new Joe and Ed about how tall he is. And, and, um,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: They they get actually now that Joe is thinking he's
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: somebody else, they get along really well now. And so, OK,
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: so then another member of the band is Roger. Roger's
• 6:56
  Speaker 1: the bass player and actually a decent guitarist. But he
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: he likes being in the background. He he he's very
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: confident playing the bass and he enjoys doing that. And,
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: you know, and staying in the background. But he more
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: than anybody else indulges in the sex, drugs, and rock
• 7:17
  Speaker 1: and roll trope. I just don't really get into very
• 7:20
  Speaker 1: much detail about that.
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: Before the change, Joe appears to have everything, talent, fame, money, success,
• 7:26
  Speaker 2: but he's miserable. What interested you about creating this character,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: somebody who achieves the dream and discovers he may be
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: completely wrong for it?
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: You know, I kind of fell into it. I'll tell
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: you what started the idea, which is, I have a
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: recurring nightmare about being on stage and having absolutely no
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: idea what to do. And so I had a dream
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: one time, a long time ago, that I was backstage
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: and somebody handed me a guitar and said, all right,
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: you're on. And so I didn't play guitar and I
• 8:02
  Speaker 1: didn't know what I was doing. And so I thought, well,
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: I'm walking out on the stage with my guitar. Yeah,
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: what am I going to do now? And I woke
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: up and I thought, geez, yeah, why would somebody do that?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: It must've been mistaken identity. And I thought, Oh, what
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: would happen if, you know, somebody woke up and was
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: in the body of, you know, the guitarist and now
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: they have to go perform, you know, that would be,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: you know, embarrassing. And I thought that would be funny.
• 8:25
  Speaker 1: And so I, I wrote a short story about it and, uh,
• 8:31
  Speaker 1: you know, it was, it was a decent story, but, uh,
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: the more I thought about it, the more I thought
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: that it could be developed. And, uh, So it really
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: evolved from there into really the theme of job satisfaction.
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not enough to have the skill or
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: the talent to do a job, but you also have
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: to like the environment, the whole job. And so that
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: was really the point. I mean, the other side is that,
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: you know, the Mike Smith personality, is sort of the
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: flip side of Joe. He believes that he was graduating
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: from Harvard and he was going to get a business
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: manager career, and he just really was not looking forward
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: to that at all. He was really anticipating that it
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: was going to make him miserable. So for him, this
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: is like a get-out-of-jail-free card. Now he gets to do
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: what he really would like to do, And so this
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: kind of developed the theme of, you know, you know,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: do do what you like, not necessarily what you're good at,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: what you're good at. And I had never up until
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: that point really thought that that could happen. I thought
• 9:51
  Speaker 1: if you're good at something, you must like it. But
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: but not necessarily.
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: Now, that quote, you're all set for the rest of
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: your life. That seemed to be like, that's the breaking point, right?
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: I mean that, that, yeah.
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: Why did that particular idea or that particular quote, you know,
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: why did you feel that was important? Like the future
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: is now permanently settled, but not necessarily.
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: The guy saying that really brought, suddenly to a head
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: in Joe X's mind that this was not a temporary situation,
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: that this was going to be the rest of his life.
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: And it really jammed that home. And that's why he
• 10:34
  Speaker 1: had such a sudden visceral reaction to suddenly seeing that
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: this was the rest of his life. Yeah, he's all
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: set for the rest of his life doing this, doing
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: what he hates doing. And so that's why that phrase
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: became important to me.
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: And once Mike takes over Joe's life, he sees X-Band
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: almost the way a fan would. So what did that
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: outsider's perspective allow you to say about how musicians can
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: lose sight of what was exciting about making music in
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: the first place?
• 11:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, right. Yeah. I thought, yeah, because, you know, in
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: the process of the research for this, I interviewed a
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: bass And he was talking about how sometimes he'd be
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: on stage playing the bass and his mind would drift
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: and he'd start thinking about, you know, something completely. And
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: then he and then he would come back into his
• 11:28
  Speaker 1: body and he's still playing the bass with, you know,
• 11:31
  Speaker 1: doing what he's supposed to do. And I was like,
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: was amazed at how, you know, you could you could
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: be on stage playing for somebody and be so good.
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: bored by that. And then you start daydreaming.
• 11:49
  Speaker 2: It just became a job. And as a fan, somebody
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: on the outside, just that's hard to imagine.
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: Right. And so I'm, I feel like I'm the fan,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: you know, I mean, I would want to be the
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: rock star, you know, and anyway, so yeah, that, so, and,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: and his enthusiasm, he brings a lot of enthusiasm back
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: into the band.
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Joe can be difficult, controlling, even frightening at times, but
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: we gradually understand how much pressure he's under. So how
• 12:22
  Speaker 2: important was that, that readers understand him without necessarily excusing him,
• 12:28
  Speaker 2: but understanding what he's going through?
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that was important to really demonstrate that the frustration
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: or the pressure of the job was really causing him
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: to behave in ways that he wouldn't normally have. have
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: behaved that he was, had temper tantrums and, uh, you know,
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: he was over, over controlling and, you know, but he
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: was a genius. So, so people, you know, people kind
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: of forgave him and, you know, they gave him a
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: lot of slack, but it, you know, he still was
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: driving him crazy and, and he really wasn't himself.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Well, there is a, A part of the story that
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: is interesting, this is when Dr. Vrakas concludes that Joe's
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: personality is almost perfectly suited to business, but terribly suited
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: to being a rock star, while Mike is almost reversed.
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: But here's where it gets interesting. One of the most
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: fascinating questions that Mike raises to the doctor is, if
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: Joe comes back, does Mike essentially die? And if Mike remains,
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: has Joe been killed? Did you want the reader to
• 13:40
  Speaker 2: wrestle with which one of them has the greater right
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: to that life?
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: That's an interesting ethical question to me, isn't it? I mean,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: there's two different consciousnesses and there's one body. And if
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: one of them is existing, does that mean that the
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: other one just doesn't exist? They're essentially dead. I mean,
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: to me, it raises kind of some frightening questions about,
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: you know, and then Who has the better right to live?
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: I mean, right now, the Mike personality is in the body.
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: Does that mean that he has more of a right
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: to do that than Joe? I mean, you know, so
• 14:24
  Speaker 1: and not only that. So there is that. So Mike
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: is concerned that if Joe comes back, Mike will no
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: longer exist. And yet the band needs Joe to come
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: back for his. playing guitar and so Mike is trying
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: to bring back Joe basically he's like giving himself up
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: sacrificing himself for the band and to me that just
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: represents an enormous courage and generosity to do that And
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: nobody really recognizes that either. So it kind of I
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: don't know. But so so anyway, yeah, that's a that's
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: an identity question. And I think, yeah, the reader wrestles
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: with that. I'm kind of glad because I think that's
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: an important question.
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: Now, let's get to the other half of the storyline,
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: which is Angie and Joe. Angie initially wants the old
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: Joe back. But living with Mike gradually allows her to
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: discover parts of herself that had been suppressed. Did you
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: come to see her story as an identity crisis of
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: its own?
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: Yes. Angie is an abused wife, but she doesn't know
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: it yet. She's been mentally abused. She's living on edge
• 16:03
  Speaker 1: all the time. She's doing everything she's thinking about is,
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: is this going to make Joe mad? And so she's
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: walking on eggshells and trying to do everything right. And
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: when Mike is, the Mike personality really is just like,
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: you know, geez, Angie, what do you, what do you
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: want to do? And she's like, oh, you know, nobody
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: ever asked me that. You know, I mean, she's really,
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: than like out of prison and now mike is encouraging
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: her to be more like herself you know there's a
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: part near the end of it where you know she
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: has an interest in photography and you know she could
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: never really follow it up because ultimately it would interfere
• 16:51
  Speaker 1: with something that joe wanted to do and she would
• 16:53
  Speaker 1: have to drop it and mike ends up you know
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: signing her up for something And, you know, because she
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: wouldn't do it on her own. And so Mike pushed
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: her into doing that. And she's happy with that. You know,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: the you know, the permission to follow up. But if
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: you think about how ludicrous it is that you wouldn't
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: you would have to get permission from your spouse to
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: follow up on your own hobby. Sounds seems kind of confining. Sure.
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: Sad, but it happens.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 17:26
  Speaker 2: Abusive relationships like that.
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: Right. Right. And so she had never been physically abused
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: by Joe, but there was just a lot of mental
• 17:38
  Speaker 1: controlling abuse. And that is a big part of the
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: story and her development. And at the end, you know,
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: when she goes to find Mike, she starts wailing on him.
• 17:50
  Speaker 1: She's really letting loose. And everybody else who knew her was,
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: you know, it's like their eyes are bugging out, you know,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: because they'd never seen her behave this way before.
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: Charles Harvey is the author of Xylene X-Band, a fictionalized
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: chapter in the history of X-Band. All right. Here's a
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: question I pose to you. X-Band desperately believes it means
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: Joe is musical genius, yet the band often seems healthier,
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: more creative with Mike. Is the most talented person in
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: a band the person the band needs most? or the
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: person who lends to healthier and more creative bandmates? If
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: you had to choose one or the other.
• 18:31
  Speaker 1: I think there's a tremendous advantage in the synergy of
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: people working together. I think you could have somebody who
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: had no talent, but if their skill brought the others together, well,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: there's that chapter where they have to record a song
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: in one day. Mike is being all manager-like. Certainly, it's
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: not his skill that causes him to actually succeed, but
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: it's his ability to motivate and energize the others. I
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: think that that's probably more important than the actual talent.
• 19:14
  Speaker 2: Twinkle Twinkle Little Star becomes one of the strangest and
• 19:16
  Speaker 2: most important musical moments in this story. Talk about that.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: And why did you choose something so simple and familiar
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: as the vehicle for X-Band rediscovering spontaneity and collaboration?
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: Well, the premise is that they need to record a
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: song in one day. And it's really kind of a
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: punishment because Joe had always taken such a long time
• 19:36
  Speaker 1: to record anything. So to do it in one day
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: was really an impossibility. But the new Joe, gets everybody together,
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: gets the sound engineer and his assistant and, you know,
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: they go down to the studio, they're moving equipment and
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: they try to work on some songs and they can't
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: really get them right. And Joe ends up saying, well,
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: you know, instead of trying to create something new, why
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: don't we, you know, take something that's in the public
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: domain and just make that our own thing? And so
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: I thought, what's like the simplest, dumbest song I could
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: think of? And Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star came to mind. And,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: you know, like Joe was saying, well, you know, I
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: could play the song that I know and then you
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: guys could, you know, jam around it. And Roger said, says, well,
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: the only song you know is Twinkle, Twinkle Little Star. Yeah,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: that's what I had in mind. The other band members
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: were like, what, are you crazy?
• 20:42
  Speaker 2: I think of Stevie Ray Vaughan. Stevie Ray Vaughan recorded
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: Mary Had a Little Lamb.
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: Is that right? Yes. Well, I kept trying to think
• 20:53
  Speaker 1: to myself, what would a rock and roll version of Twinkle,
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: Twinkle Little Star sound like? Right. And I tell you,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: if this ends up being a miniseries or a movie
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: or something, I pity the son of a bitch that's
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: got to write that song.
• 21:08
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: Exactly.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: There is humor in the book. You talk about that.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: But the music industry can be pretty ruthless. Contracts and ownership, promotion, touring,
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: and people trying to control the band. How much of
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: that world was inspired by actual stories that you heard
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: about the record business?
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: Well, I had heard, for example, that... the agent for
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: Kansas had really taken him to the cleaners and that
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: they really didn't make any money from, you know, the
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: work that they had done. And their attitude was kind
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: of interesting as, as the story that I heard, their
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: attitude was interesting because they, yeah, but we got famous. So, Hey,
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: they didn't mind so much that they had like been
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: taken to the cleaners, but you know, I figured stuff
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: like that, probably happened a lot more than should have happened,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: you know, with a sort of slimy agent and working
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: with the producer and, you know, so they, anyway, that
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: was really the only anecdote that I had thought of
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: that might be something like that, but it kind of
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: falls into Mike's area of expertise, having gone to business school,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: really equipped him to look at the contract and really
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: understand the ramifications of it. You know, and so he
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: was able to do that, which if he really was
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: Joe X, then he would not have known these things.
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: Would he? You know, there's always this kind of, you know,
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: would Joe have done it? Well, yeah, Joe knew how
• 22:51
  Speaker 1: to do that, but he couldn't do it. You know,
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: like the manual transmission. Well, Joe learned how to use
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: a manual transmission, so I can do it. Or swim.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: Joe couldn't swim, but the Mike Smith personality could swim. Right.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: The skills that seem useless in one life are invaluable
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: in another.
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah. In this case, that was his contribution, really, was
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: understanding the corruption that was happening right under their noses
• 23:25
  Speaker 1: and stopping it. And the band ended up backing him
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: up on it.
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: And as Mike becomes more determined to master guitar, he
• 23:33
  Speaker 2: starts showing some of Joe's obsessive qualities. So I wonder
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: whether Mike and Joe are truly opposites or whether the
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: pressures around them can eventually make them more alike. Pressures
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: can change people.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Well, Mike was certainly driven to learn guitar because he really,
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: really wanted to live Joe's life. And to live Joe's life,
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: he had to play guitar and be good enough that
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: he could do it on stage. And that kind of
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: fear and desire ended up really motivating him.
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because Mike worries that there will always be another
• 24:18
  Speaker 2: challenge to overcome. And then he wonders if that was
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: Joe's downfall. You can't relax because there's always a next thing.
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: You have a platinum album. Well, now you got to
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: get double platinum and so on and so forth. You know,
• 24:30
  Speaker 2: we see that. Like Michael Jackson, Thriller, the pressure that
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: he had from that point on, he always talked about that.
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: Do you see that as one of the dangers of ambition?
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: Oh, absolutely. I think, yeah, absolutely. I think if you're ambitious,
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: then what you have is never enough. And you always
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: need to get to the next rung of.
• 24:50
  Speaker 2: That happens a lot in sports. You know, I was wondering,
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: somebody like Michael Jordan, once he's retired, how does he
• 24:57
  Speaker 2: grapple with that? And all these players who are extremely competitive.
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah, yeah. I would wonder about that. That in
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: itself would be an interesting topic for a novel is,
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: you know, you retire. Suddenly the thing that made you,
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: really made you all the money, it made you famous
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: and everything, and now that's gone. That's got to be
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: a tremendous loss.
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: Joe eventually returns unexpectedly. It happens right before X-Band takes
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: the stage for the opening concert of the tour at
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: the Roanoke Coliseum. What happens when he returns?
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: That's when you learn that it wasn't a multiple personality disorder.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: It literally was a personality switch. That there really was
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: a Mike Smith. and that Joe inhabited that body. And
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: so what happens is right before they're going on stage
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: for the first concert, Joe X, now in Mike's body,
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: visits Mike, who is in Joe's body, and visits him
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: in the green room, then convinces Mike, the Mike personality that, no,
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: this was a vacation. What are you kidding? No, we
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: weren't meant to really do this. Get real. And he,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, it really was a symmetric situation that they
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: were in. And that's why their personality swap really almost
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: like made sense. And except that what wasn't symmetric was
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: that Mike worked really hard to fill Joe's shoes. And Joe,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: he took a vacation. He didn't care. He wasn't learning
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: about management. He could have, but he didn't. And that
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: was the mistake. Joe's personality really thought, yeah, this is
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: a break. This is a nice break. So once he
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: convinces Mike that it's time for them to switch back,
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Then Mike finally caves in and agrees. And when both
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: of them want to switch back to their old bodies,
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: then they do. And that's when Joe, now back in
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: Joe's body, goes on stage. Yeah.
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: It's literal rather than psychological by the end. I mean,
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: did you know from the beginning that the explanation would
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: be that?
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah.
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: That's interesting because even Dr. Vrakas treats Mike as a
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: psychological creation. But, you know, we discover Mike Smith actually
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: exists and that he and Joe really did exchange lives.
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: That's right. Now, there's a there's a scene sort of
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: early on in the book where Mike is alone. The
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: Mike Smith personality in Joe's body is alone. And he
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: goes to the phone and he calls up a phone
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: number that was basically his college room at Harvard. And
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the phone's been disconnected. Yeah, because he graduated and the
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: phone service got cut off. And so then he dials
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: another number, which is his house in Virginia, and his
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: sister picks up and he just hangs up. So he
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: has confirmed to himself that there is a Mike Smith.
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: But he never tells anybody. Because if he told the
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: band that, yes, Joe X really exists and he's in
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: my body, then he's afraid that the band will go
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: get him and replace him. And he doesn't want that.
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: So in this instance, he's being really selfish, but also
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: he's obsessed about feeling he wants that life. You know,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: he wants Joe's life and Joe doesn't want Joe's life.
• 29:17
  Speaker 2: I would imagine you are a big Rod Serling fan.
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: Yes. Rod Serling was a genius. Right.
• 29:26
  Speaker 2: Because that's the thing. Rod Serling could, he could package
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: these stories that maybe on the surface are fictional, but
• 29:33
  Speaker 2: also maybe science fiction, but there's all these deep layered.
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: Undertones. Yeah.
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: Right and and makes you think and it relates to
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: everybody it relates to all of us one way or
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: the other regardless of whether we're in a band want
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: to be a band it could be in all walks
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: of life that's what I find fascinating about this story
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: and Angie finally when Joe comes back Angie leaves Joe
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: and goes looking for Mike because she found Mike is
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: the guy for me. He's the one who makes me
• 30:05
  Speaker 2: feel complete. And the story becomes much more serious at
• 30:09
  Speaker 2: this point. Why was it important for Angie to make
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: that decision herself before she had any proof that the
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: real Mike Smith even existed?
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: I think it was important for her to realize that
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: she could not fit in the box that she had
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: been in. that she was bigger than that now. Mike
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: had developed her, and she had grown, and she couldn't
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: go back to being the way she was. She couldn't
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: go back to that role. And to a certain degree,
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: the rest of the band believed the same thing. I mean,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: that was a test, because the band could have stayed
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: with Joe, but they ended up, you know, not. So...
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: But yeah, but in answer to your question, yeah, it was, yeah,
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: that was important, I think, for Angie to make that
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: call on her own.
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: And going back to Mike, he initially refused to join
• 31:01
  Speaker 2: X-Band because he believes he belongs at GE, even though
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: being in the band made him very happy. So is
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: he making the same mistake that Joe made? Is he
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: choosing the life he thinks he's supposed to want instead
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: of the one that fits him?
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. And you know what? He's afraid to
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: go back. He's afraid to go back and try it
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: because really he's thinking, I never could have met at
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: that point in his head. He's thinking, I never could
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: have made it. I, you know, it's just easier to not,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: you know, try and fail, but yeah, he, he does make,
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: he sort of makes the same mistake that Joe makes,
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: but just for a different reason, really.
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: And the full circle of, quality to the ending, I love.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: We go back to that all set for the rest
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: of your life, quote. Joe eventually builds a successful business career.
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: Mike remains with the band. And the final description says
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: Mike and Angie are, quote, all set for the rest
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: of their lives. Almost the exact idea that triggered Joe's
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: collapse at the beginning. What did you want that final
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: statement or that final echo to mean?
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: Well, I did want to circle back to the very
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: beginning of the book, and I wanted that to be
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: the point about all set for the rest of your life.
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: Some people are in crummy jobs, and they're in their
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: crummy job because they can stand it today, and they
• 32:32
  Speaker 1: can stand it tomorrow and next week. But when you
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: start thinking, I'm in this job for the rest of
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: my life, suddenly it takes on a whole different meaning.
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: So that's really where that phrase came up.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Now, the best place to go would be Amazon to
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: get the book?
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can buy it through Amazon. Yeah. Yeah, but
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: you really, you can buy it through almost anywhere. I mean,
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: I've seen it in places that I never heard of before.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: Thrift books, like Barnes & Noble. So it's available anywhere.
• 33:05
  Speaker 2: Xilinx X-Band, a fictionalized chapter in the history of X-Band.
• 33:10
  Speaker 2: Where can people find you online, Charles, if they want?
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: I have a website. The website is xylenexband.com. And if
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: you go to the website, the website's divided up into
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: spoilers and non-spoilers. So if you don't want to know
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: all the detail of the end, then you can go
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: to the non-spoiler side.
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: This is the kind of book people can read and
• 33:31
  Speaker 2: then just have a discussion.
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: And I'd be so interested in hearing what people think
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: about it and what would they do if they're in
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: that position, right?
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: I mean, that's... Right.
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: That's what's interesting about it. So, yeah, it's a great story.
• 33:46
  Speaker 2: And boy, that would be cool if it gets to Netflix.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: Have you thought about who you'd want to play the characters?
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: You know, the thing is, all the people that I
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: was thinking about when I was writing Xylene, they're all
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: way too old to play that. In my mind, I
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: had sort of pictured Keanu Reeves being Joe X when
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: he was clean shaven. Right. But Keanu Reeves is, I
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: don't know what, 30 years too old now to play
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: Joe X. Joe X is 25. I mean, right. You know, so,
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: so he's, he's pretty young. But, you know, so I, that's,
• 34:26
  Speaker 1: that's who I had in mind, but no, I didn't
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: have any, anybody really.
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: But for the Mike character, I don't know, trying to
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: think who would be good for that. But like you say,
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: all the ones that you think of are the ones
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: that are, Too old to play the role. But Charles Harvey, man,
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: thanks so much. This is a great conversation. Great book.
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: Eric, thank you. That's it. It's in the books.