Latest / Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann / #137: Robin Dreeke / FBI CounterIntel / Spy Flipping / Social Media Madness / Big Picture Thinking

Transcript

#137: Robin Dreeke / FBI CounterIntel / Spy Flipping / Social Media Madness / Big Picture Thinking · Come Together with Ephraim Herschmann

0:01
Welcome to another episode of Come Together.
0:15
We're live. Robin Drake, thank you so much
0:17
for coming on. I'm so excited to be talking to
0:19
you. It is an awesome pleasure,
0:20
Efrims. We're glad we can finally make
0:22
it happen. Apologize for my chaotic life
0:24
and schedule. No reason to apologize, it looks
0:27
like I just showed my high. I teach high school English part
0:29
time and I just showed my class the Dead Poet Society.
0:33
It's an old one. Oh man.
0:34
Yeah. But let me tell you something
0:36
that shook them. That movie shook them.
0:38
But but one you know, I just going through going through your
0:43
resume and going through your website and going through doing
0:46
some homework on you. You really carpet the heck out
0:48
of the DM in the in your life, haven't you?
0:50
That's. That's interesting.
0:56
Yeah, I guess so. Not by design, as I often say
1:01
The, you know, people ask me how I got to run the behavioral
1:03
analysis program for the FBI, spy recruiting and all that.
1:05
It sounds like that was the trajectory, like early drive.
1:10
But the truth is, you know, that I completely failed.
1:13
Everything I wanted to do, I wanted to do.
1:16
Oh yeah, I wanted to be an astronaut.
1:18
Wow and. And I didn't have the didn't
1:21
have the grades, didn't have the scores, didn't have, you know,
1:24
and the most important thing that each of us can have in life
1:28
is a is a great teacher, mentor, guide and loving critic.
1:31
And with my background, with my family of how I grew up, you
1:35
know, with I was the first one to go to college.
1:37
I was the first one to even to stay to own a home.
1:40
And so there I'm first generational professional and so
1:44
there was no mentor and guiding at home because it was uncharted
1:48
territory. And so I was relying upon
1:51
creating relationships. Again, when you're younger, you
1:53
don't realize it, but you're, you know, in order to solve
1:56
life's most wickedly challenging situations, you're, you really
1:59
rely on relationships. And so I was fortunate earlier
2:03
in life to have some that helped me maneuver through, but not
2:07
enough to help me really capitalize on my blind spots
2:10
that I didn't realize I had. Right, right, right, right.
2:13
I think I, I, I, I think it's actually, it's funny, I come
2:15
from a similar, as far as, you know, not quite making, at least
2:20
not yet making what I thought I wanted to do and having to
2:23
figure out another way around it.
2:24
I had, no, I was not under any kind of false pretense as to
2:27
what my capabilities were. And I was always actually
2:30
looking to, to fill in a round out the parts of my, you know,
2:34
the parts of the things I wasn't as great at with close
2:37
relationships and mentors and good friends.
2:38
And I, I had to figure that out at a relatively early age, even
2:41
though I was switching high schools.
2:43
I was miserable in 9th and 10th grade.
2:45
And I wanted to switch to another local school and they
2:48
didn't want me because my grades were awful.
2:51
And I had to have a good relationship that with a teacher
2:54
that was in that school. And he advocated for me.
2:56
And the school eventually let me in.
2:58
And it was the best thing that as far as I'm concerned, ever
3:01
happened, one of the best things that ever happened to me.
3:04
And it was just because I was, you know, I maintained a good
3:07
relationship with this, with this teacher.
3:08
And I knew him from my neighborhood and I was always
3:10
nice and polite and respectful to him.
3:12
And I ended up taking his neck out and got, you know, getting
3:15
me where I where I wanted to get.
3:17
And so I think that you're right.
3:18
I think that cultivating good relationships, especially
3:21
understanding our own shortcomings or, you know, no
3:24
one's perfect. So it's just about finding the
3:26
partners that could round out where you are.
3:28
Yeah. And I'm, I'm curious with that
3:30
teacher that did that for you, are you in a line of work and
3:35
doing things in your life right now that were inspired because
3:38
of his encouragement or the things he said and the things
3:40
did during that time period where he made you feel seen and
3:42
valued? Yes, but not he was more he he
3:47
was a rabbi. So he taught Judaic studies.
3:50
And that's certainly, I mean, I still, I still, there's
3:54
different, you know, just like if you have different leaders in
3:56
your lives or different role models and mentors for different
3:58
things with different rabbis or in a spiritual capacity that,
4:03
you know, some will help you with more practical aspects of,
4:05
of day-to-day life. Some of them will be a little
4:07
bit more like how to direct your relationship with your wife,
4:09
your kids. Some of them are more about your
4:11
personal relationship and growth with God.
4:13
And so he happens to be he, he does fill in a role in, in my,
4:18
in my spiritual life that to today is, is super fundamental.
4:21
And he's, he's known for that. He's awesome.
4:23
Yeah, it's usually that period of life between the ages of 9 to
4:26
24. The, the positive impact of the
4:29
people or events that we have typically shape how we move
4:32
through life. Not necessarily with the exact
4:34
things we do, but the things that gave us great feeling of
4:37
safety and comfort. We start wanting to repeat, not
4:40
necessarily exactly the task, but the emotion we had and the
4:43
things we experienced that during that time for that gave
4:45
us that emotion. So that's why anytime we can
4:48
identify those data points, it's it's just fun.
4:50
It helps us understand people at a deeper level and that's what
4:52
we do when we're making connections.
4:54
You know, that great question is of who is it all those years ago
5:00
that inspired you or gave that spark to be who you are today?
5:03
Let them take you on that journey and you're going to
5:05
start really uncovering the people in someone's life and the
5:08
types of relationships that meant something valuable to
5:11
them. And a lot of times that people
5:12
are unaware of it as well, just because they hadn't really
5:15
thought in hindsight about those types of people.
5:18
Yeah, yeah. There's a great show called
5:20
Trafficked with Mariana Van Zeller.
5:21
I don't know if you heard of it. It's on Hulu.
5:24
And she's an investigative journalist.
5:25
And each episode is a breakdown of some underworld crime world.
5:29
And one of the things that she does so well is she
5:32
contextualizes, you know, what brings people to, you know,
5:35
drives people to a life of crime and far.
5:39
It's almost never that someone just says, Hey, I want to be a
5:41
bad guy, you know, and it's almost never that someone said
5:44
and, and, and it's funny. There's an episode with
5:46
assassins and she was talking to the young assassin and he said
5:49
that I got started. My, my, my dad was killed.
5:52
And she says, well, don't you know that all the dads that
5:55
you're killing? And he goes, I don't touch women
5:56
or children because but then, you know, all the dads you're
5:58
killing are that was the same thing that happened to you.
6:00
And the kid might end up doing the same thing.
6:02
And it had not dawned upon that guy at all.
6:06
And I, who knows how many assassinations he's carried out.
6:08
And he stopped the interview and said, I, I, you know, that you
6:11
really shook me. I really don't.
6:12
I have to think about this and who knows what he's going to do,
6:15
But the fact is that very few people have that.
6:18
Well, and, and here's why, So we can even analyze him in the same
6:22
way we look at everyone and look at ourselves.
6:24
And so here's a guy, a young man that experienced something
6:27
traumatic by his dad. And so at a very young age, like
6:32
most of us, myself very much included, we get in the the
6:37
routine and get the reps in of solving our problems.
6:41
And so when you start solving your own problems, you get very
6:44
good, get very gritty, get very resilient, get very innovative
6:47
in order to solve our problems. And along the way, in order to
6:50
solve our problems, we are forging relationships to help us
6:54
solve our problems. And they can be good, healthy,
6:56
strong relationships. But what happens at a certain
6:59
point when you are starting mature and people are expecting
7:02
you to mature into leadership or a position where you have to
7:07
actually think of someone other than yourself?
7:10
And So what this assassin didn't really realize until that point
7:14
was he was very good at solving problems.
7:15
He's very good at creating relationships in order to get
7:17
what he needed to do to move forward and be successful in
7:20
life. Because the guarantee of us all
7:22
is that we're always going to act in what we think is our own
7:26
best interests in terms of our safety, security, and
7:28
prosperity. It's just the empathy aspect is
7:31
what that looks like to that other person from their context.
7:34
And so at that certain point with the assassin, someone let
7:37
him know that other people are working with their challenges,
7:42
priorities, and pain points in life, not just you.
7:45
Other people are solving their problems, not just you.
7:47
When you actually have that aha moment, you're like wow, other
7:52
people have other crap they're working on too and those
7:56
profound moments. If you are a humble student of
7:59
life, you can actually take that information in, process it, and
8:02
start making shifts like he did apparently.
8:05
Yeah, I hope, I hope, I hope, I hope so.
8:07
But it's a good metaphor either way.
8:08
But I, I, I've noticed since, and I've been actually trying to
8:12
advocate for this as as often and as strongly as I can.
8:16
Our brain evolves with the addition of responsibility, I've
8:19
noticed. And you know, whether it's being
8:23
responsible for a wife or kids or community or friends, or even
8:27
having, for example, having responsibility to yourself.
8:30
I play an open mic every now and then.
8:32
You know, I've been, I've been practicing slowly, you know,
8:34
playing guitar every night, you know, and I, I was practicing
8:36
for years and I kind of got held up a little bit recently with
8:39
all the stuff on my plate. But one of the responsibilities
8:42
that I have is that if I'm a face that people can, you know,
8:46
count on on a weekly basis or a store owner counts on to show up
8:49
and, and, and create a crowded environment.
8:52
Having a sense of responsibility greatly, greatly enhances your
8:57
sense of consciousness and your sense of, of awareness.
9:00
And you start to think a lot less.
9:02
You start to think in a lot bigger of a circle and a lot
9:04
less just about yourself. And then you also realize that
9:07
the more that people, the better off the rest of the world is,
9:09
the better off you are too, because I mean, who, you know,
9:12
who I mean, who wants to live in an environment that is
9:15
surrounded by misery? And who wants to live in an
9:16
environment that's surrounded by healthy, happy relationships?
9:19
And everyone has to take their part in it, I think.
9:22
And a lot of misery can also be context.
9:24
Half the world's divided into wound collecting victims and the
9:27
other half is collect collected into problem solvers.
9:31
And interesting that you use that word responsibility.
9:35
But another word that a lot of psychologists will use is
9:37
friction. Brain only grows and evolves
9:40
when it has friction. It needs resistance in order to
9:43
move through that resistance. And it's like a, it's like a
9:45
muscle. Brain is a muscle.
9:47
You know, the more you flex your muscles and the more you work
9:50
them, the bigger they get, the more resilient they get, the
9:52
better they get. A processing, same thing with
9:54
the brain. And the way the brain gets
9:56
better, gets more resilient, matures and grows is when it has
9:59
friction, frictions, responsibility.
10:01
Friction is anything that is something other than sitting on
10:05
your couch and doing nothing. So some resistance.
10:08
Resistance is more, some resistance is less.
10:10
And here's the other thing, beautiful thing about on the
10:12
brain also, we don't remember average days.
10:15
No. So we don't remember days that
10:17
are extremely challenging or extremely joyous.
10:20
Yeah. And so that's what we also
10:22
remember. So always make sure you go out
10:24
there and create a day you're gonna remember.
10:26
It's funny you say that. When I was, I was living in the
10:28
in Manhattan for a couple of months and I really didn't like
10:30
it there. But one thing I was trying to be
10:31
very intentional about was trying to do something every day
10:34
that I would remember at the end of the week, like Monday, I did
10:36
this Tuesday, like just one thing that that was out of the
10:39
ordinary so that I could shake things up and make something
10:41
memorable in my day. It was extremely difficult to
10:44
do. It's so challenging, but, and
10:47
it, and it's tiring. You have to think of a new thing
10:49
every day. What's a new thing that I
10:50
remember at the end of the week? And then, but I, I, I digress.
10:54
We're 10 minutes in and I didn't, I didn't give you any
10:57
introduction. I didn't give any kind of
10:58
context other than you mentioning very briefly that you
11:01
were that you're the head of the counter Intel, the FBI, and you
11:04
also have a history at the Navy and the Marine Corps and you
11:08
have written many books now and again.
11:10
You know, it looks like you really seized the day as far as
11:14
the days in your life go. It looks, you know, I mean, I
11:17
just know that I'm trying to accomplish even a fraction of
11:20
what you're doing, even writing a book.
11:22
And it's taken me a long time. So, you know, just I would like
11:25
to, I'd like to hear a little bit about your journey about a
11:30
little bit about, I mean, you seem to obviously be very
11:32
psychologically in tune and inclined and aware and
11:35
especially about human nature and people's personalities and
11:38
such. Was this always the case?
11:40
Was this something you learned? Do you feel like you had some
11:42
kind of proclivity towards people?
11:45
And how did you decide that you wanted to get into into
11:48
government and protecting protecting people?
11:51
So I'll, I'll take you on that journey way, way back that we
11:55
all have about what's that spark and inspiration to be who we are
11:59
today. And however that manifests can
12:01
look different over time with opportunities and jobs and all
12:04
that. So first, the reason behind
12:11
human behavior and being really into it and really enjoying it
12:14
is my I try to keep things very, very simple.
12:19
Anytime something seems complicated means you don't
12:21
understand it enough. And so you got to dig deeper to
12:23
make it simple. So the best, most intelligent
12:26
people in the world can explain complex things in a few words.
12:30
And so for me, it's really plainly simple as I kept boiling
12:34
things down to really the root motivation I have.
12:36
And that is I want to be liked, have friends, be part of great
12:41
teams and be the best at it. Yeah, be the best liked.
12:44
I mean, it really just comes down to that.
12:46
And so the motivation that got me better at that was how I grew
12:50
up. You know, I grew up in a in a
12:52
household where, as I said earlier, you know, first
12:54
generation professional. My my parents were very young
12:57
when they got married because my mother was six months pregnant.
13:01
No, three months pregnant. And and so that cut and my dad
13:06
was 21 going on 22, my mom was 20 and no promise.
13:13
I mean, just no, nothing lined up.
13:15
And so it's just like, here's life go.
13:19
So you grow up very gritty, resilient to solve problems.
13:23
And because my problem was I needed money to buy school
13:25
clothes so I could fit in with the rest of the kids.
13:27
I needed, I needed, I needed things that my parents couldn't
13:29
give me. So I went out and I did it.
13:31
I am a hardcore, you know, all the things, all the memes you
13:34
see about Gen. Xers on X on Twitter and and and
13:38
TikTok and everything. That's me 100%.
13:41
I was free range from the very young age and see when you're
13:44
doing these things at a young age, getting what I call those
13:47
reps in when you're bullied, you get to understand and really
13:51
recognize owning, OK, what am I doing that's causing them to
13:55
fixate negative attention on me? And when I need to build
13:58
relationships and allies to get through that.
14:01
But then also I had big aspirations.
14:03
I want to go to the Naval Academy at a very young age.
14:06
And so I needed, I need to build resume.
14:09
I need to be on the football team.
14:10
I need to be captain of the football team.
14:12
I need to run for a student office.
14:14
And I did. I mean, all these things, all
14:16
these milestones in life that I need to build that resume to get
14:19
into a very tough school to get into and get the grades I need
14:22
to get into. And I didn't have the grades.
14:24
I had OK grades, but I needed even more allies for that.
14:28
It took me a year of prep school.
14:29
I almost got kicked out of Naval Academy 4 times because my
14:31
grades were so bad. Was it the problem with school?
14:36
I'm sorry, what was the problem with school for you?
14:37
Because I had a problem as far as test taking goes.
14:39
My I would get nervous. My brain would go blank.
14:42
So. What was the middle of you?
14:44
High school, no problem, you know I did well but the
14:47
standardized test SAT sucked. I had to take the SAT 7 times to
14:51
get the minimum score to even get an application.
14:54
So for me what I've come to find out later in life is everyone
14:59
learns very differently visually, audio, tactile.
15:03
And for me I actually learn best when I'm moving.
15:06
I'm it's called a kinetic learner.
15:08
So I listen to audible books now when I walk multiple I walk like
15:12
3 * a day. I rock.
15:13
I got 35 lbs on my back and stuff.
15:15
But when I listen to audiobooks I remember everything awesome.
15:20
When I'm sitting down and trying to read something, forget it, it
15:24
1/4 of it may be retained with a lot of effort.
15:27
And so that was part of it. And also when you're not
15:29
challenged in in high school and I wasn't challenged, I didn't
15:32
come from a grade high school. It's a good one, but not a super
15:35
one that didn't teach me skills I needed because I could just do
15:38
bare minimum and do really well. I was just using that natural
15:42
intuition St. smarts kind of stuff to get by and did decently
15:46
enough. And so when I actually went to a
15:48
university like the Naval Academy to study engineering, I
15:51
was like way overwhelmed with, I couldn't do it.
15:55
I mean, it's the first time in my life that I'm, I'm facing
15:57
aerospace engineering as a major as I wanted to be an aerospace
16:01
engineer, wants to be an astronaut.
16:02
And I was like, I was looking at a page I didn't know, I didn't
16:07
know what I was even looking at, you know, And it would take me
16:10
all night long to work 3 engineering problems.
16:12
I had to blow off my other classes because at the Academy
16:15
had taken roughly 20 to 22 hours semester hours a semester, all
16:19
in hardcore sciences, and I had to blow off all my other courses
16:24
to do these 3 problems and get every question wrong anyway.
16:27
I mean it was just, it became ludicrous really fast.
16:30
That was my problem. It must be demoralizing.
16:33
It must have been. How did you push yourself
16:34
through it? The same skills that I had of
16:37
problem solving again, it kept reinforcing.
16:39
I got to solve my problem. I got to solve my because to me
16:41
there was no option if I failed out, I was not going to college.
16:46
We didn't have money for college.
16:47
I was either going to the Naval Academy and coming a naval
16:50
officer or Marine Corps officer or nothing in my mind.
16:54
And so was all in. And I also never ever was I
16:58
saying it's their fault, it's their problem, it's too hard.
17:01
It was always me. It's like I am doing something
17:03
wrong. And so the one thing that I did,
17:05
and this was the the arc of my life.
17:08
How did I get through all that? My professors love me.
17:12
It wasn't that I was doing horrible and they thought as a
17:14
dirtbag or I wasn't trying. Everyone saw the effort.
17:18
I was in extra instruction with all my professors, every single
17:20
one of them, all the time. I had great relationships,
17:23
matter of fact, electrical engineering, I don't think I
17:26
ever passed a single quiz or test in electrical engineering.
17:30
And yet I passed the course with AD because I, I swear I must
17:34
have guilted the professor into passing me.
17:36
Yeah, because he saw the effort, you know?
17:38
So effort and relationships will get you a lot farther in life
17:41
than pure root brute strength will.
17:43
Yeah, yeah, definitely. I mean, I think that if anyone
17:46
studies literally anyone, any great, any great person, you'll
17:50
find that, you know, very, very rarely is someone just a pure
17:54
force in an isolated, you know, vacuum. 100%.
17:59
And it was interesting when you were mentioning about walking
18:02
and learning because I, I, I feel I'm an experiential
18:04
learner. I have to, I never got the
18:07
geography of America until I drove across the country and
18:10
like, it all made sense to me and it all clicked.
18:12
And Steve Jobs used to say the same sentiment about, you know,
18:15
whenever you'd hold big business meetings, he would have it in
18:19
the least formal, generally on a walk around Apple campus, just
18:24
because he's like, the best way to be productive is to be moving
18:27
and to indicate your brain, your blood flowing and your brain
18:30
moving. And then let's and let's talk
18:32
things out. And you know, and also I think,
18:35
and I've experienced this myself on personal levels, just with
18:38
friends and even with, obviously, even when I started
18:41
the podcast, I would do just audio without video and I would
18:44
often walk around the room or go for a walk while I was recording
18:47
just to get my brain flowing. It's one of the things I missed
18:50
about it. But it's, I think it's really
18:51
important. I think that we live in a very,
18:53
very sedimentary world and everyone's very still very, very
18:59
frequently. It's something I'm a little
19:01
concerned about. In fact my my last book, I'm
19:05
republishing my first one. It's not all about me, but my
19:07
last book on Breakable Alliance is.
19:09
I Wrote While Walking. Oh, really?
19:11
So I, what I did was I interviewed my, I came up with
19:14
the content of the chapters that I wanted, of the content I
19:16
wanted to cover. And then I created 9 questions
19:21
because every, every, every chapter in the book has sections
19:24
and every section of the book is answering a key question for the
19:28
big question of that section of that chapter.
19:30
And so I did was I came up with on 9 questions per chapter that
19:35
I wanted to have answered. And So what I did was I
19:37
interviewed myself asking me that question.
19:40
I narrated it out loud as I'm walking.
19:43
I then took the transcript and then edited the transcript.
19:46
Incredible. I love that because I think
19:48
better when I move and so I said if I think better when I move.
19:50
Let me move while I write this book.
19:52
Yeah, yeah, I and I, I've noticed that that's worked for
19:55
me with public speaking. I know that when I speak
19:58
publicly, I like to walk around. I like to move and shift and,
20:01
and use a lot of body language. And I, I encourage, I teach my
20:03
high school students and I haven't done it this past year
20:06
yet, but I, I, we do public speaking every semester, 5
20:09
minute public speech, no more, no less.
20:11
Or you have 30 seconds within each, within each range.
20:13
But I think it's important to learn how to do that, to get a
20:15
point in a couple of minutes and to speak in front of people.
20:18
And one thing I encourage is for people to walk around.
20:21
But when I was doing a lot of public speaking.
20:22
In college, I would do exactly what you said.
20:26
I would take a voice note, a memo, I'd record, practice what
20:29
I want to say. I have a list with a couple of
20:31
bulletins of topics I want to get to.
20:33
And that was it. And then I would, and then I
20:35
would just walk and practice. And then by the time it came up,
20:38
I already had the whole thing flushed out of my head.
20:40
And someone, there's a, there's a girl that tried to speak after
20:44
me one time and we were friends and, and she forgot in the
20:48
middle what she was saying. And you could see in her face
20:51
everything froze And she was like, and she never knows you
20:54
have anything in front of her. And she came up to me after
20:56
she's like, how do you do it? And I said, I don't just walk up
20:59
and try to speak off the cuff. I was like, I spent, I probably
21:01
spent an hour, 45 minutes preparing.
21:04
Every single time I get up for, for a 10 minute speech or a 5
21:07
minute speech, I prepare for, I, I prepare at least half an hour,
21:10
45 minutes. I know exactly what I'm going to
21:12
say. And I have the, I have the
21:13
bulletin points in my head and I know I'm going to go with it,
21:16
you know, So I think that it's a really cool method of being
21:20
productive. There's never a wasted moment
21:23
when you're practicing, you know, every time as I ran our
21:26
behavioral analysis program for the FBI, the counterintelligence
21:29
team, and we strategize recruitment operations as spies.
21:33
And one thing that we always had case agents do is we always told
21:36
him you have to get in reps, you have to role play this out
21:40
multiple times on just as an example, bringing my kids back
21:43
into. So my son's a Marine Corps
21:45
fighter pilot. And before they do any flight,
21:48
whether it's a training mission or anything else, they chair fly
21:52
it. They actually literally go
21:53
through all the motions, all this, all the verbals, all the
21:57
mode, you know, they, they walk between chairs about what the
22:00
route they're going to fly. If there's a great movie, they
22:03
used to have it on Netflix, I think it's on Prime right now,
22:07
called the Blue Angels. It was made I think in 2022 or
22:10
2023. It's actually the Blue Angel
22:12
flight team. And you will see them doing
22:13
exactly the same thing at the extreme levels.
22:16
And you think these guys are are perfect and fly The Jets best in
22:19
the world. And they do.
22:20
But it's not because it came natural.
22:22
It comes with a lot, a lot, a lot of reps Everything we do in
22:26
life is another Rep. There's never a bad repetition.
22:29
Everything's a learning moment. Definitely I did.
22:32
I did a recording with a gentleman that was formerly on
22:36
Secret Service, and one thing he said was that they have a very,
22:39
very high turnover rate because it's a lot of drilling and not a
22:42
lot happens because people actually get burned out because
22:45
you know you're drilling for all these potential scenarios and
22:48
then when you're actually. And he goes and, and then
22:50
another gentleman who is also in a similar world said, and
22:53
there's, there's never a pat on the back.
22:54
There's never a good job. And he goes and you really have
22:57
to be. And like what you said, you got
22:58
to do what you got to do for yourself.
22:59
You got to do what you got to do because this is what you find
23:02
valuable and important and meaningful.
23:04
And you're not looking for necessarily a think you're a pat
23:06
on the back and you're not looking necessarily to be in the
23:10
midst of action. You're looking to do the right
23:11
thing and you're, and, and, and when you're focused on that, it
23:15
allows practice to become invaluable and it allows to you
23:19
like practice becomes meaningful to you.
23:20
I I don't know what in what way my guitar playing is ever going
23:24
to manifest, but I practice every single day and I don't
23:27
feel like I've wasted a minute of my life doing it, you know?
23:30
It's it's muscle memory is what it's develops.
23:32
And so in all these situations where it becomes high stress,
23:34
when you're under high stress and your brain's being
23:36
emotionally hijacked, it's going to revert to what it already
23:39
knows what to do. That's why we trained.
23:41
That's why we get the reps in. And then going back to, since
23:43
you mentioned that servicing and going back to the second part of
23:46
the original question was, so why Marine, you know, this life
23:52
is service basically because I went for the Naval Academy,
23:54
graduate from the Naval Academy and went to the Marine Corps
23:56
instead of the Navy. It's a, it's a choice and
23:58
option. If I did additional training,
23:59
which I did when the Marine Corps, served the Marine Corps
24:02
for five years, got out of captain and came in the FBI
24:04
after that and worked for intelligence for 22 years before
24:07
I retired in 2018. So that it was all about
24:11
service, 100%. And when I was retiring from,
24:15
well, getting out of the Marine Corps and going the FBI, it
24:17
wasn't because I was rah rah FBI guy, was because it was an
24:21
opportunity to continue to service my country.
24:22
So I always see myself as a patriot first.
24:26
Government institutions, they give me a retirement check.
24:29
And so I always say that they, they allowed me to continue a
24:33
patriotic service because organizations, institutions can,
24:37
you know, ebb and flow with popularity or unpopularity and
24:40
it's becomes a mess. But yeah, the people I worked
24:44
with, mission, mission, mission. I was always extremely mission
24:47
oriented with being of service. That's really awesome.
24:50
That's really beautiful. And I mean, I think I, I, I, you
24:52
know, what do you, have you found out a lot of others that
24:57
you worked with were like that? Is that a general sentiment or
24:59
you think it's a mixed bag? Mixed bag.
25:03
Typically people come into organizations when they're
25:07
younger with a very, you know, altruistic, humanistic outlook
25:12
and and very service, selfless orientation why they do things
25:15
sometimes along the path, people become that balance.
25:20
Like for me that it was always out of balance.
25:21
My career didn't need mean as much to me as my service did and
25:26
the mission. And so I was out of balance.
25:28
You know, it's always mission, mission, mission.
25:30
And if you don't take in career, when I say career, I'm talking
25:34
about understanding and working with internal politics, both for
25:39
personal and professional gain as well As for mission.
25:42
Because in order to have the mission accomplished and get a
25:44
yes to do in operations, you actually have to have the
25:47
relationship to do that. And those same relationships
25:50
will actually serve you personally and professionally if
25:52
you want to advance. And so mine was a bit out of
25:55
balance because I was 2 mission focused for many, many years and
25:59
unaware of the the fact that many around me were shifting
26:04
into being career oriented and less mission oriented.
26:08
So I'd say everyone comes in with a very good reason and in
26:13
their own mind they're doing it for all the right reasons
26:16
throughout. It's just what what happens is
26:18
there becomes shifts in priorities with all human needs
26:21
and all jobs. I'm curious in your 22 years at
26:25
the FBI because I mean, I, I guess I'm curious about really
26:30
anyone, but does the political party that's in power at the
26:36
time change the entire environment of everything that
26:39
you're doing? Is it like every four years or
26:41
eight years is just a reset and just like, hey, we're starting
26:44
over again? Or what's, what's it like when
26:46
you go through periods of transition, especially with and
26:50
especially with relatively dramatic differences as far as
26:54
policy goes, I don't really, you know, I'm not really interested
26:57
in talking about one policy or the next more in just actual
27:00
environment within the agencies. How does that affect day-to-day
27:03
life, or how did it affect your job?
27:06
During my time in I I was in from 96, roughly 96 going to 97
27:10
all the way up to 2018. I went through 4 directors.
27:13
I had Louis Free was when I was came in, then Bob Mueller then
27:17
call me and then Ray on the way out.
27:21
And it typically politics doesn't affect anything because
27:28
the FBI enforces law And so laws are laws, you know.
27:33
And so the on the criminal side, the guys that do criminal
27:38
investigations, it doesn't really impact that much at all
27:40
unless it gets into the area of white collar crime or public
27:43
corruption. Then you might see a thumb on or
27:46
a supposed thumb on a scale. But it's, it's funny the way it
27:51
works. The FBI enforces law.
27:53
It investigates, you know, the statutes that have been
27:56
violated. And you always have more things
27:59
being done, more crimes being done.
28:01
Then you have people to investigate them always.
28:03
Like when I was at, even at FBI headquarters, you know, I had
28:06
three stacks, a stack of stuff. If I didn't do it, I was going
28:09
to get fired. A stack of stuff if I didn't do,
28:11
I'd probably go to jail. And a stack of stuff that I had
28:13
to get done or someone else's life was going to suck.
28:18
And you can only get done maybe a portion of one of those stacks
28:21
a day. So every day you're coming and
28:22
reshuffling stacks. And this is everyone's job in
28:24
life, you know, but the government's no different.
28:26
There's never a day when you went home is, oh, everything I
28:28
got everything done today. Never.
28:30
And so you're reshuffling that stack or your management above
28:33
you is helping you reshuffle that stack.
28:36
That stack. Everything in that stack is
28:38
righteous. In other words, it's good
28:40
investigations, violations, all these things.
28:42
But sometimes, you know, in recent years, I'm thinking that
28:47
someone that's a political appointee will want something
28:51
more focused on than another thing.
28:53
And it's not that any of them are necessarily wrong, it's just
28:56
that someone will reshuffle that stack for you potentially,
28:59
Potentially. But so here's the thing to
29:03
realize with all government organization institutions, with
29:05
political appointees, every organization inside the
29:09
government is run by a political appointee.
29:13
They then bring in their own people that they then hire
29:15
underneath them at that higher echelon of those organizations.
29:18
And so the Bureau point directors of a 10 year
29:22
appointment unless removed or fired by the next president.
29:25
And so they should, they should be and typically are
29:28
nonpartisan. So then someone's partisanship
29:31
that comes down as subjective opinion.
29:34
Inside my time inside the Bureau, I never saw a
29:36
difference. Very cool.
29:39
That's awesome. That's awesome.
29:41
Long answer, but I I think sometimes it needs clarity by.
29:43
I think it absolutely does. I think it's absolutely worth
29:46
it. I think that it's also, I think
29:47
it's really, really important to give everyone the opportunity to
29:50
express their point of view, you know, about especially,
29:52
especially especially someone that's been, you know, inside
29:56
and one argument actually, you know, do you mind if we pause
29:58
for two seconds? You're starting to rain out
30:00
here. Yeah, sure.
30:01
OK. Sorry.
30:02
My coffee anyway. OK.
30:04
I'm sorry about that. We're back.
30:05
So I apologize for the interruption.
30:08
What were you just saying? No, we're just talking about
30:11
just the how government organizations, institutions work
30:15
with the appointees at the top. My time in I, I didn't see it.
30:19
I mean, I saw, I mean, you know, anytime you're working in a
30:23
world of counterintelligence, you're working with a lot of
30:25
other agencies. We had always coordinate with
30:27
CIA. We had to coordinate with State
30:28
Department a lot. And so the heads of those
30:30
organizations will also weigh in on what you're doing or not
30:35
doing when it comes to operations.
30:36
And those people are also political appointees.
30:38
And so it's always, it's always a blend.
30:42
But I never saw anything massively shift when during my
30:47
time in, you know, the last couple years, I couldn't tell
30:49
you, but it's been it's just been different.
30:53
But every day is different everywhere else.
30:55
Yeah, yeah, seriously, it just feels like the difference are
30:57
getting better. I feel like the events that
30:59
happen feel like they're on a bigger and bigger scale every
31:03
time something happens. You know, and that's very
31:06
interesting. I will say they're appearing
31:10
that way because they're being presented that way.
31:13
I mean, one of the things I do, if you're going to have a
31:17
beautiful interaction with a human being, the most important
31:20
thing to do is be present for that other human being.
31:22
And the way to be present into is to engage another human being
31:25
free of an agenda, especially if it's centered around you.
31:28
The only agenda should be actively curious about what it
31:30
is the other person wants to share.
31:32
Identify a critical life challenge and see what you can
31:35
do to be a resource for them in terms of that critical life
31:37
challenge while establishing trust with open, honest
31:40
communication, transparency and vulnerability.
31:42
So in order to do that, in order to be present for that other
31:46
human being, you have to be extremely calm with have a calm
31:50
brain, no crazy brain, grown free of emotional, you know,
31:54
baggage reactions and definitely to the best of our abilities,
31:58
free of confirmation biases. In order to do those things, you
32:03
have to have, for me, what I have to do is I have to have a
32:06
vast historical context of what is is because it keeps me calm.
32:11
When you see the world in chaos around us, remember, we see the
32:15
world in chaos because that's what's being presented to us by
32:20
whatever media outlet you want to listen to.
32:22
Whether you're getting all your things from social media through
32:24
the multiple things, or you're whether you're listening to, you
32:27
know, cable news networks, legacy news, I don't care what
32:29
you're looking to. Everything that you're consuming
32:32
has an agenda to get you to watch, to sell you ad space.
32:37
They're they're automatically targeting you for you to consume
32:42
the information that's going to validate your own self opinion
32:44
and the things you want to hear because we have liking
32:47
confirmation that things we want to hear because that will then
32:51
sell more ad space. That's exactly how it works.
32:54
And so for me, in order to maintain calm brain so I can be
32:58
present for the other person, I just have historical contacts.
33:00
And so the world's, the world is better today than it's ever been
33:03
before. You're just seeing the five
33:06
second highlight reel of chaos the world's presenting to you.
33:10
It is safer now as a human being living on this planet, your,
33:16
your risk of death by violence from another human being is at
33:19
an all time low for our species and still going down.
33:23
Believe it or not, You know, you don't have to look far back in,
33:28
in the history of our just in the last 100 years of the chaos
33:32
that has ensued. I mean, you know, if if anyone
33:35
wants some, some really good deep context, read any book from
33:38
World War 2, anything from any Holocaust survivor and you're
33:42
going to see, oh, no, we're fine.
33:45
Yeah. The chaotic.
33:46
Yes. And does the human species
33:48
evolve in in generational timeframes?
33:50
No, we're talking millennial timeframes.
33:53
So I read a lot of it. Matter of fact, right now, one
33:55
of the books I'm going through, it's called Kindred.
33:57
It's actually the history of the Neanderthals.
34:00
You want to you want to talk about a fascinating time period.
34:03
Imagine our planet in a time period that when no one had ever
34:05
recognized with the species of human beings on it that you
34:08
wouldn't even recognize either, you know, living in a very
34:11
harmonious way. One of the reasons why I think
34:14
they died off was their calorie requirement was so high.
34:17
And also they never evolved beyond really high artisan
34:20
craftsmanship of Stone Age and, and woodworking because they
34:24
didn't battle each other. The evidence they have right now
34:27
is they are actually extremely peaceful with each other, which
34:30
also means that they don't covet things, which means you're not
34:32
craving things, which means you're not battling against
34:35
others or resources like the Homo sapiens did, which also
34:38
means you're not going to innovate as much either.
34:39
So it's, it's just amazing. Again, what's this give me as I
34:42
go on my my sidelog monologue? Oh I love this.
34:46
It gives you context. Another book Noah Havari wrote,
34:48
the great book Sapiens, followed up by Homo Deus and then Nexus.
34:52
You know, these books are good. You great, amazing understanding
34:55
of context of us as a species. And then you read other
34:59
beautiful historical biographies and novel, and not novels, but
35:01
historical fiction, historical books that gives you more
35:04
context of where we are today and the great scheme of
35:07
evolution, the great scheme of human interaction, nation states
35:11
so that you can be calm to realize, OK, take a deep breath.
35:15
Let's just have a great conversation with this person
35:18
and meet them where they're at and be interested in what it is
35:22
they want to share. There you go, long answers.
35:24
That's awesome. I love that.
35:25
That's awesome. I I so I I I I.
35:29
I know you're correct. The way I know you're correct is
35:33
because I used to consume several news podcasts a day and
35:36
was like, this is going to drive me nuts.
35:39
I'm going to like it was actively it was actually
35:42
detrimental. And at a certain point I
35:43
realized that majority of what I was listening to was actually
35:46
just essentially being repeated on a daily basis and, you know,
35:50
changed the context. But the same ideas and the same
35:52
and and similar vernacular and similar urgency and similar
35:55
tone. And I was like, dude, once a
35:58
week is fine. Like once a week an update is
36:01
OK. And again, like you said, take a
36:03
step back. And the and the bigger context
36:05
is like, hey, like I went to bed last night, sure that we were
36:08
going to be at war today. I went to bed absolutely
36:10
positive of it. You know, I was like, well, I
36:12
saw in the news that Iranian airspace was cleared and that
36:16
Israel apparently was going in. I saw the, the Chinese had, had
36:20
had air, had had aircrafts in, in Iranian space.
36:24
I was like, that's it, we're going to war and I wake up and
36:26
nothing happened. I'm like, that's incredible that
36:28
I mean, you know, and credit where credit's due.
36:29
I really think, you know, because I was, I was really
36:32
concerned about the general war tendency of the of the current
36:39
administration and it really hasn't, you know, I mean, to be
36:44
fair, it hasn't really resulted in, in, I don't think any
36:46
American deaths as far American military deaths as far as I
36:51
know. And I don't think it's really
36:53
resulted in any kind of massive destruction of American
36:55
equipment or taxpayer dollars. And I mean, we'll see what
36:59
happens long term, but it looks like there's been a lot of bark
37:03
and a lot of restraint at the same time.
37:06
And so everyone that you know, but I'm sitting there every day
37:08
freaking out and getting blasted with going to war or going to
37:11
war. This is a war.
37:11
This is a war. There's a war.
37:13
And like, we're okay, we're okay.
37:15
It's. And the other thing to round up
37:17
what you were saying as far as Homo sapiens and needing
37:21
resources, I'm reading, I, I, I did an interview with and I'm,
37:25
I'm reading the newest edition of the Confessions of an
37:28
Economic Hitman by a gentleman named John Perkins, which was,
37:31
which is an awesome book. And one of the and basically the
37:35
whole book lays out that a lot of the wars that we've been
37:38
through have been obviously judged for resources almost
37:41
since all of them everything. Everything as a species, you
37:45
know, from the time we want that, we decided we have to
37:47
leave The Cave. You know, it's food insecurities
37:50
#1 you know, we've only started really going after other
37:56
resources other than food as a species in the last like 100
38:00
years. I mean, we as a species, we
38:02
finally, you know, for everyone that always argues against
38:06
genetically modified food and all those things, I'm it's
38:09
great. You can argue against it, you
38:11
know, because a lot of people say, oh, you know, a hunter
38:12
gatherer is so much more natural.
38:14
Yeah. You know, the average age of
38:15
hunter gatherer society was around 30 to 40 tops.
38:19
And yeah, their food might have been healthier, but there was
38:20
no, no food security ever. And so what's amazing about that
38:26
is only in the last, within the last 50 to 100 years as a
38:30
species. Again, I got this from Noah
38:32
Havari's book, which is I think it was next.
38:35
A Homo Deus is the next one after that.
38:37
Did we as a species conquer famine?
38:40
There's no famines you might have.
38:42
There's food insecurity around the world, but not because
38:44
there's crops going bad because of famine or drought or
38:47
anything. We as a species have scienced
38:49
ourselves out of that. And so that's what's pretty
38:53
remarkable. And so we can feed the world.
38:56
We just choosing not to because and why because the people in
39:01
control of different parts of the world are battling for their
39:03
own resources. They want to control.
39:05
You know, I can't remember the name of the book.
39:08
I mean the movie, it was really profound.
39:10
It's really good. It was it was it was it was a it
39:13
was a horror kind of thriller, but it's all about the the
39:17
really getting to the root core religion of the world.
39:21
What was the first religion of the entire species control?
39:30
That is the religion of our species.
39:33
We want to control. We want to control our
39:35
environment. If we didn't control our
39:37
environment from from the elements, our children would
39:40
die. If we can control our food, our
39:41
children would die. So is actually.
39:44
Us as a species has been always trying to control control the
39:47
resources so that we can procreate and pass on what we
39:51
have to others. It's and so that and.
39:53
Death is so scary for that's why death is so scary, because we
39:56
have no, we, we don't know and we have no control.
39:58
Yeah, as far as we know, you know, And that that, that
40:01
really. It's easy to go down to
40:02
philosophical right but that, but again, reason for this in
40:05
the study of all these things, because you understand context
40:07
of everyone, then you understand what motivates people.
40:09
When you understand what motivates people, which is
40:11
simple. People want to feel safe.
40:13
Yeah. I always think in terms of what
40:15
can I do to inspire someone to feel safe with me, to inspire
40:18
them to feel safe to share information, inspire someone to
40:20
feel safe, to say yes to my operation.
40:22
What can I do to inspire my children and feel safe sharing
40:24
information with me from their perspective, which forces you
40:27
outside yourself into them to talk in terms of their
40:30
challenges, priorities, pain points and friction points in
40:32
life. And, and the most important
40:35
thing is any great interviewer will tell you the worst thing in
40:39
the world you can do is show someone their shame because
40:42
everyone has shame. And if you identify it, don't,
40:46
don't show it to them because it's, and even though it might
40:49
be nothing to you, it's something to them because again,
40:51
it's, it's meeting people where they're at.
40:53
Is that that's what that means. It means meet them what, how
40:57
they see the world through their optic and lens, which is that
41:00
deep, deep, active empathy, that empathy in terms of what some
41:04
people hear the words mushy, gushy stuff.
41:05
No, it's empathy, which is literally taking off your skin
41:09
and get inside theirs and see through their eyes, their
41:12
experiences, their background, their ethnicity, generation,
41:14
orientation. I don't care what the hell it
41:16
is, it's their life. And then you'll understand and
41:19
always understand this. They are acting in what they
41:22
think is their best interests. Give them the credit.
41:26
Now, granted you you think from your armchair quarterback and
41:29
that you know what their best interest should be.
41:31
Oh yeah, that's not from their optic.
41:36
And that's why we get into disagreements like this, just to
41:38
understand what's motivating them to make those choices
41:40
because they think it's in the right, right interest.
41:42
So find out what that is. Let's try to twist this because
41:46
I'm having the time of my life and I and I know that we're we,
41:49
we don't have. Long in time, sorry.
41:51
But but I would like to, I'd like to turn this into counter
41:55
Intel because I'm sure that a lot of what you just said flows
41:59
into that. And those are the things that I
42:00
will say to prompt the next, I guess step is I teach in a
42:05
Jewish in high school and especially obviously post
42:10
October 7th, a lot of times my students were saying, you know,
42:13
you got to do this and they're the bad guys.
42:14
And I said, can I ask you a quick question?
42:16
I'm like, I'm not saying I'm not saying you're wrong.
42:18
I'm not saying I disagree with you.
42:18
I was like, what do you think they're saying to themselves?
42:21
Like, what do you think their defense is?
42:23
Like, do you, do you think they say we're the bad guys and we're
42:26
just trying to be the bad guys? And there's like, yeah.
42:29
And I said really? You think that I think you, you
42:31
think that I was like, you think that the kids that, you know,
42:34
that have their houses blown up or that, you know, they see
42:36
their sister getting killed, God forbid that they, you know, that
42:39
they, they just think I want to be a bad guy.
42:41
You think that they think, Oh no, they're the bad guys.
42:43
And, you know, we're just trying to survive and do our own thing.
42:46
And I was like, we're we're removing the context from the
42:50
conversation just to make it about the way you feel about
42:53
something. And and it's, I mean, I think
42:55
the term is called othering people, right?
42:57
Yeah. You know, it's us and it's them.
42:58
And then and there's a great, there's a great book by the late
43:02
Jonathan Sacks, who was a phenomenal, phenomenal,
43:05
phenomenal Jewish writer. He was a professor at NYU or
43:09
Columbia, I forgot which one. And he, he wrote a book called
43:12
Not in God's Name, which is basically the argument.
43:16
Listen, you got to set, you got a list of that of instructions.
43:20
Anything else than that, don't say it's in God's name.
43:23
Don't say that you know that we're doing this for God and
43:25
there's always an us and there's always a demon.
43:27
We're allowing and, and by doing that, we allow ourselves to do
43:31
to do to others. They're not humans.
43:33
We can do anything you want to them.
43:34
You know they're not, they're not us.
43:36
We can do anything you want. They don't feel the same way.
43:38
They don't suffer the same way. I mean, how many times you hear
43:40
they're animals? How many times you hear they're
43:42
you know that and and they're not.
43:44
And so here's here's what happens in every single one of
43:47
these situations. So what inspires people to take
43:51
any action whatsoever, that is, especially if it's going to be
43:54
violent action or some sort of action like that, is fear #1 the
44:00
only motivation of all of us to do actions like that is fear.
44:05
And so how do we feel fear? Or what happens next is the
44:09
people in control, the religion of control.
44:12
Control. What you're taking in is
44:15
information that's causing that fear.
44:19
And so now you're being told I'm fearful.
44:22
Here's what's causing that fear. Here's the actions you need to
44:25
take to overcome that fear. We directed, yeah.
44:28
And so, and here's the fear we all have, is the safety,
44:32
security and prosperity for ourselves knows we care about.
44:35
Knowing that every human being in any group and organization is
44:39
going to act in her best interest in terms of safety,
44:41
security and prosperity for ourselves knows we care about
44:44
and we're fearful of not being in control of that.
44:47
The people around us controlling our information input is telling
44:51
us what that fear is being caused by is being caused by
44:55
them the other and in order for doing that.
44:58
So that's why cults work this you know, every organization
45:02
that is going to do harm to others that for the benefit
45:04
themselves and lead led by charismatic individual that is
45:09
going to do horrendous thing. That's a cult.
45:12
You know, that's the definition of a cult.
45:15
And So what the cult then does is they isolate when the other
45:17
things that cults do is they isolate people from being able
45:20
to consume information outside of their control.
45:24
And so a lot of times that's why you get radicalization.
45:27
You're only going to, it's only, it's only legal to consume my
45:31
information. And if you don't, here's your
45:33
fear, you're going to hell. So this is how control happens.
45:37
This is how fear is used to manipulate people to take
45:40
actions that they think are in their best interest.
45:43
How did that? So can you tell me, can you give
45:45
me maybe an example or two, if you, if you can, of how this
45:48
would apply in the world of counter Intel or or you know, at
45:51
least in your career and maybe maybe highlight this point a
45:54
little? Bit well, yeah, so people, a
45:56
typical question people ask is so how do you recruit a spy?
46:00
How do you recruit an individual?
46:01
How do you recruit a an extremist?
46:04
Well, first thing first thing you have to do is you have to
46:06
identify a critical life need in their life.
46:09
It's like if I'm recruiting a spy, I have to see a critical, a
46:13
critical challenge of priority that they're facing that that
46:16
needs solving. And then at what scale and level
46:21
are they willing to do something to overcome that critical life
46:23
challenge? Say it's it's they don't want
46:25
their kids growing up under Putin's regime.
46:28
Say it's because he's a horrendous oligarch destroying
46:30
their country. That's a critical life challenge
46:32
that they are, they don't want their kids growing up in this
46:35
this kind of environment. Then you have to place yourself
46:40
in their line of sight with a solution.
46:44
Yes, I am a resource for you overcoming this critical life
46:47
challenge. And then the most important part
46:49
is because we often see, all right, I have a challenge,
46:52
Ephraim, you can solve it. But the biggest question, can I,
46:56
can I trust you with my life to do it?
46:59
So now we're going to be testing the other person's
47:02
trustworthiness and with when making sure they have open eyes,
47:04
communication with us, transparency, vulnerability, in
47:07
other words, owning their own behavior.
47:09
Then their actions and deeds have to be aligned with that.
47:11
They have to be, you know, thinking in terms of us, we're
47:13
looking for emotional stability. We're looking for all these
47:15
things in other human being to see if I can actually trust them
47:18
commensurate to the level the request that I'm I'm putting on
47:21
them. And so that's how so that's how
47:24
I recruited spies. You didn't you put yourself in
47:28
their line of sight knowing that they have a critical life
47:31
challenge and needs solving. I could be a person to do that
47:33
for you. And I'm going to do that by
47:35
demonstrating these behaviors of trust.
47:36
You can trust me with your family's life and your own.
47:39
And so now when you're thinking in terms of radicalization is
47:42
same thing. You're, you're you.
47:45
A lot of times you're telling someone that's in pain or
47:50
feeling disenfranchised or feeling down about something,
47:54
full of resentment towards something they don't have a
47:56
place to direct yet because they see themselves as a victim or as
47:58
a wound collector. You're now getting someone
48:01
coming in, telling them, hey, here's the cause of this
48:04
critical life challenge that you have.
48:06
You want to feel safe. You want your family to feel
48:08
safe. I'm the resource that's going to
48:11
overcome that. And here's what I'm going to do
48:13
to allow you to feel safe in my environment.
48:15
See. It's the same thing, no doubt.
48:18
No difference whatsoever. And so I imagine that that
48:23
system, so the system of incentive incentivizing and
48:27
offering security and essentially what really
48:30
everyone's looking for probably better method of recruiting and
48:35
changing minds rather than threats and and other more and
48:40
malicious I guess methods. Yeah, it absolutely does.
48:43
So anytime you're going to use coercion or manipulation in any
48:47
kind of proactive way, what's happening is you're making it a
48:51
very transactional relationship. Transactional relationships
48:54
will, they can work. You can get exactly what you're
48:57
looking for from a transaction relationship, but it's going to
48:59
be extremely short term. And typically the person that
49:03
you're getting the information or getting the action from is
49:06
going to have what I call buyer's remorse.
49:08
You know, they're going to leave that interaction with you at
49:11
some point not liking you, very distasteful.
49:15
And what that then does is it destroys your brand.
49:18
So say, say, I mean, the FSB, the Russian FSB does a beautiful
49:22
job of, of this. As you know, what they'll do is
49:24
they will abuse the local and local diplomats in Moscow,
49:29
whether it's CIA or MI 5 or or or Shin Bet or, or anyone you
49:35
know, they will abuse the local diplomats by following them too
49:39
close. They'll, I'm, I've, I've, I know
49:41
horror stories of like when CIA officers, diplomats go on leave
49:46
back home, the FSB will enter their homes, they'll destroy
49:50
homes, they'll leave, they'll leave extra men in different
49:53
parts of the house. I mean, it's, it's, it's
49:55
horrendous. They just treat them very
49:57
poorly. So what happens is they have a
49:59
negative reputation. Who wants to volunteer to that?
50:04
Who wants to cooperate with that?
50:05
So they use nothing but court. And so then if they need to
50:07
recruit someone as an intelligence source, they can
50:10
use a honey trap on them. They can use blackmail on them,
50:14
but then it becomes a very transaction relation.
50:16
Then they'd actually can't trust the information they're getting.
50:18
And so then you have to have other sources to verify that
50:21
information. I mean, just look at all the
50:22
work you're going through because you're an ass.
50:25
Meanwhile, if you if you become the person that people want to
50:29
work with, you become that lighthouse, that beacon of trust
50:33
and confidence. And so even, I mean, we did this
50:35
all the time in my organization. So say I walked up and I had
50:39
this beautiful operation over. And these are never just one
50:42
offs, never like walk up to a stranger, say, hey, here's
50:45
$1,000,000. I wanted to cooperate.
50:46
These are months, sometimes years in development where you
50:49
can create just the right environment for them to feel
50:52
safe to have an interaction and dialogue with me where we can
50:54
start maybe discussing some critical life challenges and
50:57
things I have to offer. At the end of the day, if they
51:00
say no, which is more times than not, they decline the beautiful
51:04
offer I have to solve this critical life challenger in
51:06
life. And you leave like you just did
51:08
right there with a smile on their face.
51:10
If they go back and tell their friends, their colleagues, dude,
51:13
I was just approached by the FBI and of course I said no.
51:17
But then their friends and family say, well, what was that
51:19
experience like? How they treat you now you have
51:22
a positive brand. Well, they're professional.
51:24
They did this, this and this and this.
51:25
I mean, they craft this entire operation, thousands of dollars
51:30
worth of time, effort, and resources just around me to make
51:34
it perfect for me, free from manipulation, free from
51:38
subterfuge. They just made the most
51:40
beautiful moment they possibly could because they knew what was
51:43
wrong with my life. And they're there for me with a
51:46
solution without it, without, without reciprocity, without
51:51
expectations of, of, of coercion.
51:54
That's a beautiful moment. Who, who wouldn't want to have a
51:56
conversation with me? That's why we do it the way I do
51:58
it. So can I ask and I really, I
52:02
mean, I'm really just wondering and you can either correct me,
52:05
disagree or agree or neither, whatever.
52:08
But you know, one of the things that I've been reading about and
52:11
one of the reasons why globally China has become such a huge
52:15
business presence and economic presence was because from my
52:19
understanding again, and this is purely based on my
52:22
understanding, maybe you can correct me that America for
52:26
America's economic exchanges, right?
52:31
We could call them very loosely, I guess, which would be in South
52:36
or Central America or the Middle East or throughout the world
52:39
really was that we'd give you would give them a loan.
52:42
And then we would demand that if the loan wasn't paid back that
52:45
we would extract either, you know, resources or military
52:50
bases or you or votes or, you know, come along with us on our
52:53
agenda. And a lot of countries felt like
52:56
we were being too transactional and China would come in and say,
52:59
hey, we're not going to be as pushy.
53:01
We don't build military bases, you know, in other countries and
53:05
that could and that ostensibly, at least for the last 2025 years
53:09
has led to a global shift in perspective and, and and and
53:13
attitude towards America versus China.
53:15
Now China's having its own problems as far as quality and
53:18
as far as they do eventually start to show, you know, the
53:22
true colors behind their that behind their loans, of course,
53:25
But what do you think? I think that I think that what
53:31
you're saying is beautiful and accurate, and I think that it's
53:33
true, and I think that it's a whole nother fight to actually
53:36
get a country to act in that way on a, you know, on a on a even
53:41
on a semi regular basis. But my concern is that or you
53:45
know, just as a guy growing up, just a 30 year old data too, is
53:48
that while you're saying all these things that are true, a
53:51
lot of times we see and maybe it's just the stories we hear.
53:54
And maybe it's just that it's the bad news that gets
53:56
publicized and pushed to the front.
53:58
But it doesn't, it doesn't feel like we act as that as often as
54:01
you probably should. And the proof would be in the
54:04
pudding in the sense that a lot of sentiment around the world is
54:06
that, hey, we don't want to deal with deals with America.
54:08
And if it comes down to dealing with America or China or dealing
54:11
with America in another country, then maybe maybe it's worth
54:14
taking a shot with another country.
54:16
Do you have any thoughts on that?
54:17
It's a really interesting observation about the
54:20
transactional viewpoint versus long term.
54:22
So dealing with China first, the they are very good at what they
54:26
do because they do play a very long game.
54:29
Yeah, them have looked into every four years.
54:31
Out of every nation state in the world, I think China is probably
54:34
the most patient. And they're also, they
54:35
understand the philosophy of they.
54:37
They will steal an entire beach 1 grain of sand at a time.
54:41
They grind like that, very slow, very methodical, very patient,
54:45
very practiced. They everyone's and I'll, I'll
54:51
say everyone in this most people's capacity to do what I
54:54
just described about how to have it one of these conversations
54:57
and how to have an an actual alliance and create, you know, a
55:01
recruitment op opportunity is very few, very few people have
55:05
the ability to do it because why?
55:06
Because nation states are battling for resources, you
55:09
know, so I mean, think about it. If a nation state could actually
55:12
act like we just had discussion of the Putin's of the world
55:16
would come in and roll over them.
55:18
And so in order to it's an interesting dichotomy in order
55:22
to counter the, the the supreme, you know, Machiavellian, you
55:30
know, horrendous individuals, nation states in the world, you
55:36
have to face them with resistance because otherwise the
55:40
warlord, because they'd be are typically as as a species are
55:42
warlords. The warlords will come and roll
55:44
over you because they want your resources.
55:46
Yeah. They don't want to feel a threat
55:48
from you in any way. But the only way to do that is
55:51
to get people inside their organization to undermine them.
55:55
And how do you get people inside their own organization,
55:57
undermine them? Like we were talking about, you
56:00
know, it's it's it's a fascinating.
56:02
That's why I was saying, you know, as we're on our break
56:04
before, you know, it's, well, actually not on break, But when
56:06
I was talking about Neanderthals, you know, it's
56:09
interesting studying us as not just nation states, but as a
56:12
species, what we tend to do because that helps us predict
56:15
behavior much better. And because one thing you can
56:18
do, you can really fall down the trap of hope sometimes.
56:22
So, like, I hope Putin will be different next time.
56:24
No, he won't. This guy's got, you know, when I
56:27
was an FBI in New York in 199697, you know who the
56:30
president was, just came in Putin, He's been around a long
56:33
time. He's got reps and being this
56:35
way, he's extremely predictable. Russians have been doing things
56:38
like this for an extremely long time.
56:41
Life arcs, I call him. When we can establish a pattern
56:44
behavior with someone, the likelihood of them deviating is
56:48
almost zero unless a new factor comes in and spikes it.
56:52
And if they do change of behavior, then you have to then
56:55
zero in on what caused that change of behavior because
56:57
unless there's something major, they're not going to change it.
57:00
Putin's always going to do what he's going to do.
57:02
And so they you can keep trying these different things, but his
57:04
actions are going to remain exactly the same.
57:06
And so it's a fascinating thing as a species to understand what
57:12
a lot of horrendous people will do.
57:14
They're going to want to come in and take your resources to make
57:16
themselves feel safe because they have a distorted view of
57:20
what that safety can look like. Definitely, definitely.
57:23
OK. And then I guess, and I guess
57:25
the hope lies in the individuals like yourself and myself that
57:29
are trying to, that are trying to have this organic, you'd call
57:36
it a grassroots type of positive influence and, and really trying
57:40
to encourage the kind of behaviour that we were just
57:44
talking about that, you know, and I think it all comes down
57:46
to, you know, the way I like to put these kind of things is junk
57:50
food or health food. You know, a lot of this stuff
57:51
can be done, can be consumed quickly, easily, like a bag of
57:54
chips and hey, you know, I'm hungry.
57:56
Grab a bag of chips off the off the shelf.
57:58
I'm good to go. Or you could take a little bit
58:00
of time and you could, you know, cut it, you know, you know, dice
58:03
an onion and cut up some celery and make some tuna fish and, and
58:05
have, and get a, get a good protein meal.
58:07
And it might take a little longer and it might require a
58:09
little bit more patience and it may take a little cleaning up,
58:12
but you're going about things in a healthy way and organic way
58:15
that people could really feel that is, is really beneficial
58:17
to, to hopefully really everyone involved.
58:20
And I don't think there's a problem with benefiting with
58:23
other people. I really don't.
58:24
I think that if you bring something to the table that
58:26
other people benefit from, then, you know, hats off to you and
58:29
you deserve a little bit too, for sure.
58:31
I think that, I think that we just have to, I think we, I
58:34
think that we can't get too complacent with institutions
58:38
because institutions are almost inherently sociopathic and
58:43
individuals are much more feeling.
58:45
And so I think we need to focus on individuals rather than
58:48
institution. A good balance of everything,
58:51
you know, everything's a balance to me, you know, and so, and the
58:54
balance maintained is the balance that you need to have.
58:56
So you don't have resentment towards organizations,
58:58
institutions or individuals because of resentment is what
59:02
starts us down the path of the dark triad, you know, of
59:04
machiavelliism, narcissism and psychopathy when violence starts
59:09
ensuing. So it's just keeping a good
59:11
healthy balance being of service and but also the I don't get
59:19
wrapped up in, in I hope things will get better or things like
59:23
that, because the world's going to do what the world's going to
59:26
do. I'm more focused on what
59:28
behaviors can I model for the people around me and, and just
59:32
be that much. I mean, really the only thing we
59:36
are individually doing of consequence on this planet, each
59:40
one of us individually is modeling the behavior for those
59:44
around of us, of those that are impacted by us of how to have
59:47
healthy relationships in their lives.
59:49
And if we can model the behavior of how to have a healthy, strong
59:51
relationship with them and they touch six more people and they
59:54
touch six more, you know, generationally that's how you do
59:57
it. But anything else in life, it's
1:00:00
it's it's. It's, it's nothing.
1:00:02
It's literally the only that's why I'm always just focused on
1:00:05
what behaviors can I model to my kids, which are amazing human
1:00:08
beings that they can then model and watch my kids do things and
1:00:12
have the types of relationships that I have modeled for them.
1:00:16
It's a win. I'm good, you know, that's and
1:00:19
so it's just modeling those behaviors for others because if
1:00:22
we focus too far out on what we hope things will be, you lose
1:00:26
track of what you need to be today.
1:00:28
You know, Eckhart Tolle, another beautiful author.
1:00:30
I love the power of now. You.
1:00:33
Know time is a construct that we created because we're all
1:00:36
literally living only now, can't control what's happened
1:00:41
yesterday and we certainly can only hopefully influence what's
1:00:45
going to go on tomorrow. But the only thing we are
1:00:46
actually in control of is that our own personal actions right
1:00:50
now, right? Yes, I think that's I think it's
1:00:53
a beautiful place to leave it. Robin, thank you so much for
1:00:57
your time. I hope we can do this again
1:00:58
because I could probably because I could talk to you for a very
1:01:01
long time about a lot more, I'm sure of your experiences and
1:01:04
thoughts. But I think that this is this is
1:01:06
really awesome and I really appreciate your time.
1:01:08
And I'm so happy that we found that we're able to make this
1:01:11
work and keep following up and and make it happen.
1:01:14
And I hope we can do this again sometime.
1:01:16
Thanks Ephraim, you too. Great conversation, can't wait
1:01:18
for the next one. A lot of fun, thank you.