Latest / Founders and Funding / Ep 17 - Roger Courtney - Founder & CEO of Sunstone

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Ep 17 - Roger Courtney - Founder & CEO of Sunstone · Founders and Funding

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  Hi, welcome to the Founders and funding podcast.
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  I'm your host, Philip Smith. On the podcast, I'll be
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  interviewing founders, investors, startup advisors on
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  how to fund the journey of your startup and some tips and advice
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  they have for you along the way. This podcast is sponsored by
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  Perfectly Technologies and Laden.
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  Enjoy the episode. Hi Roger, welcome to the
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  Founders and Funding podcasts. Thank you very much for having
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  me. It's my pleasure to have you on,
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  uh, Roger, just start us off, talk to me about your company
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  and your role. Sure.
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  Uh, I'm Roger. I founded a company called
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  Sunstone, Sunstone Technologies Limited to give it its, uh, full
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  title. Uh, Sunstone is a data inference
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  company and what we've done is we have reclassified the entire
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  Irish economy by replacing something called NACE codes.
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  And this allows us to show B to B companies far larger markets
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  than they were previously able to see.
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  So we're actually just accelerating business
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  development on behalf of B to B clients by using, uh, very, very
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  strong and very detailed data. Sets Fantastic.
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  And what does an average data look like right now for you?
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  Well, I've actually, I've recently been blessed with a
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  fantastic new hire. I was actually running most of
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  my own admin back office for quite some time there, a little
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  over a year actually. And I finally just got a
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  fantastic back office person called Cassia who's joined the
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  team recently and she's actually free of a huge amount of my
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  time. So what I'm actually doing is
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  all of the stuff that I probably should have been doing over the
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  prior 12 months and then pondering what I should be doing
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  next. So that yeah, I know it's it is
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  funny that that found in journey where your your responsibilities
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  and your day-to-day changes. I think as you make new hires
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  and adding to the team. Hmm, absolutely.
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  And I think, you know, there's a sort of an idea that I was
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  introduced to recently called a minimum viable business.
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  And it goes right alongside the minimum viable product.
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  Because obviously, you know, an idea is an idea, a product, a
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  product, but something can only get as far as the structures
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  that can be built around it. So actually a minimum viable
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  business is also a very, very important way to look at what a
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  business should be focusing its efforts on.
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  You know, there's the idea, but there's the actual doing of the
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  thing itself, the business. Yeah, I really like that.
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  I think that's where a lot of syrups and businesses, they kind
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  of they, they, they focus on that kind of problem market fish
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  and and rightly so. But they don't really always
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  take a step back and look at the full business.
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  And is it actually, you know, what is it profit or is it
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  profitable enough for what does the future look like for us and
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  how can it be more viable as a business?
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  I think that's a. That's a really good point.
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  Well, I think what, what's really interesting is that I
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  suppose, again, I don't want to be jumping into, into subjects
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  that we'll get into later on, but what I really enjoy at the
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  moment is actually spending time, uh, thinking about
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  strategic before tactical. And I think a huge part of the
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  problem in, in start-ups is that there's so much tactical to be
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  done that, you know, the day-to-day can be consumed.
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  And, and, and I think the phrase that a, a former colleague of
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  mine used to use was busy fools. And the problem with being a
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  busy fool is that you think you're actually making progress,
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  but what you're really doing is just completing tasks.
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  So what I think the, the recent hire of the admin being taken
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  from me has really given me a chance to do if I'm, if I'm not
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  being flippant or glib, is actually to really think about
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  the business and our direction as we move forward.
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  And as we begin that scaling process, which, you know, now
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  that we're sort of out of the start up phase, uh, you know,
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  our, your eyes lift from your feet, they look at the horizon.
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  You realize that there's an awful lot to be done between now
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  and then, and I think getting the strategic view right before
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  because the tactical is always informed by the strategic.
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  So if you have your strategic bit right, the tactical will
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  become obvious. Yeah, I think that's a really
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  good point. Uh, I've spoken a lot of
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  founders who do get lost in kind of tasks and day to days, but,
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  but not really looking at the kind of real critical, uh, work
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  that needs to be done and to look at the funding journey a
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  bit for Sunstone, How has your company funded its journey to
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  days? Uh, very lucky to be primarily
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  funded by friends and family who then match funded, uh, an
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  Enterprise Ireland HPSU, uh, application.
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  So we were accepted into the HPSU program in November 2024 as
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  part of that intake. And that then I think one of
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  the, the things that, that gave us was a certain amount of
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  credibility. And we actually, we, we drew
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  down a sort of a tranche one, uh, of, of the full investment,
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  which was 250K match funding, so 500 total.
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  And the idea was that as we, we much funded that we got a trance
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  from Enterprise Ireland. We became part of the program
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  that actually gave us credibility and a certain amount
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  of kudos in the market. So that when I was speaking with
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  people, you know, there was certainly a, a small element
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  where people would be like, OK, so he, I think he's not a
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  complete idiot. That's good news.
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  So, you know, it, it came with a certain amount of credibility,
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  which allowed for the next phase to be completed.
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  If I'm being honest, I think I jumped in too high up the chain.
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  I probably should have engaged with my local enterprise office
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  1st, but my background was a little bit unusual because I was
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  actually coming from a trading business and building a spin out
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  because I'd taken over a data company in 2021 from where I
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  built Sunstone and so I was actually running a trading
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  business while pivoting to a start up.
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  So I suppose my my journey was unusual and the HPSU was the
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  entry point from my particular journey.
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  But for anyone else, I'd very much recommend to start lower
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  down the the funding chain at the local enterprise office
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  level because I never did and it would have been easier.
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  Yeah. It's just it's that kind of
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  stepping stone of of maybe getting the feasibility of
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  primary grants and working your way up to to perhaps the HOSU.
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  But it certainly is. It's a really great vote of
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  confidence. I think having Enterprise
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  Ireland back your start up and it's a really good signal to the
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  market and to companies looking to work for you.
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  So it worked. Very well, I'll have to jump
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  across you there very quickly. One of the things that I think,
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  uh, Enterprise Ireland and the HBSU program gave me that was
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  really probably the most valuable was actually the
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  defending, uh, offenders, uh, forum, which is their, their
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  sort of boot camp for, for companies that are looking to
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  scale. So that actually was sort of AI
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  suppose an MBA in a box almost, you know, select strategies of
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  the company that run off on behalf of Enterprise Ireland
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  for, for my year end this year and have been for quite some
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  time, I believe. And they, they deliver a
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  terrific program, Paul and Emer. And what you get by the time you
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  come out of it is it would be incredibly unlikely that you'd
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  be faced with the situation as a young start up or entrepreneur
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  that you wouldn't have a frame of reference or some kind of a
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  structure or system with which to address the problem.
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  And that kind of training is absolutely invaluable.
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  So it's not actually for me as much about the funding.
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  What really gave me massive value from Enterprise Ireland
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  was the Fenders foreign program. That's fantastic.
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  Yeah, it's, I think there's a lot of, there's a lot of, I
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  think MBA grudges and things like that, that, you know, and,
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  and those programs do cover great, uh, insights into
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  managing the business and certain aspects of it.
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  But I think courses or programs like the one you described, when
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  they're, uh, in the Enterprise Ireland, I think they are
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  critical to really get insights into the actual, uh, problems
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  and solutions you'll, that you'll face on a day-to-day
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  basis. Absolutely.
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  And it gives you such a tremendous network.
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  Umm, so within the intake from last year, which kind of runs
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  calendar year sort of March through to about October,
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  November, the founder of the year was actually one of my, my
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  group Mark from Nuribel, fantastic founder.
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  And what I discovered was that the small group format, which
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  included Mark and, and a few other fantastic people, it gave
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  us a wonderful network within which we had compatriots who
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  were also going through a lot of the same challenges.
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  And so one of the things that I've, you know, heard an awful
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  lot is that it's a very, very lonely journey to go and become
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  an entrepreneur. And you know, you have all these
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  YouTube kind of podcast videos talking about the lonely hour
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  and all that good stuff. But one of the things that I
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  found about the Founders Forum and my group was coached by a
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  fantastic guy called Sean Baker founded Iona Technologies.
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  And it provided such a a sort of a forgiving environment within
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  which you could be free to be kind of vulnerable, to expose
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  your mistakes and to have a a room full of very talented and
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  very intelligent people helping you all together at the same
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  time. It was a pretty special
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  experience. Yeah.
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  I think that uh, it certainly helps in in your journey and to
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  look I suppose a bit towards more of a general point of the
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  funding. What do you think is the best
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  way to fund a startups journey in your opinion?
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  I think that's a very difficult question because I think the
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  sheer variety of what types of businesses require, what types
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  of funding is, is so broad. What I'll say is that I was
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  incredibly lucky coming from a private equity background.
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  I had a bit of a network on myself and I've gotten here with
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  just Enterprise Island and friends and family.
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  So I didn't mean to bring in institutional funding.
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  And we've actually, we're, we're profitable for Q1.
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  So we're actually we're, you know, the nose of the plane is
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  now up, which is fabulous. We got here without
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  institutional funding and I think having a backer who can
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  open doors is hugely important. I think some kind of a mentor or
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  somebody that you can kind of go to is really important.
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  In fact, my chairman early in the process, a gentleman called
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  Billy Kelly, he's actually just arranged for a Sunstone to
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  become the data partner, the official data partner for the
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  Ukraine Ireland Chamber of Commerce, which has just been
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  set up on rustic leadership of Pavlo, who hosts the
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  organization in DLA Piper's offices on Dawson St.
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  Umm. So Billy was actually kind of
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  working with me as a, as a coach and helping me to understand
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  what it was that are not necessarily what it was I, I was
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  doing, but how I should react to things and how to address
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  certain issues. And to have somebody that you
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  can go to that you trust, like with the Founders Forum program,
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  where you can be vulnerable and you can be helpful to others.
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  And actually, you know, it, it feels kind of wonderful when
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  you, you know, make some kind of contribution that helps somebody
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  else on their journey. You know, givers gain and all
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  that. But I find that if you're going
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  to go out and do something crazy like this, having somebody who
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  was a little bit seasoned a little further along the road
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  than you, who can see the pitfalls is a massively
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  important thing to have. And having that kind of support
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  and that kind of guidance is absolutely invaluable.
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  Yeah, couldn't agree more. And to look at the founding team
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  a bit, Roger, like what? What skills do you think new
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  founders should possess? My, my wife credits my primary
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  talent as grit, just inability. I don't really have a lot of
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  skills. So what, what I think, you know,
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  it's going to be harder than you think.
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  It's going to be more painful than you think.
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  And I think the, the, the thing that really came to that I came
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  to realize is that growth, uh, feels like grief.
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  It's a, it's a quite a painful process becoming what you're
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  trying to become. And I think the more openly you
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  can do it and the more you can share that journey with people,
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  the more support you're going to find.
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  In fact, uh, another fantastic guy, Andrew Casey, uh, founded a
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  brilliant marketing agency called Headcase.
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  I met him at a rugby lunch. We were former school friends,
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  haven't seen each other since school.
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  And at the point in time when the rugby lunch was on February
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  25, I was just, I was going through one of those periods of
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  time that you get as a founder when everything hurts.
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  And he just shared some really gentle, kind observations about
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  how his journey kind of related back and how looking back on
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  that, you know, made him feel kind of more resilient now that
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  he's passed it. And just even giving the
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  framework or even the sense of this is a thing that exists in a
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  continuum or timeline, just contextualizing that really
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  helps. And I think to have people
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  around you who can, you know, provide you with that shoulder
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  to lean on every now and again again, absolutely essential for
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  a founder's journey. Yeah, I I agree.
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  But it's not surprising because I think the founders journey is
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  such, it can be such a strange one.
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  It can be quite complex, a lot of different, we'll say
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  challenges involved in that and a lot of different areas you
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  have to have knowledge about from whether it's financial or
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  legal or going to market. So I think there's certainly a
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  lot of challenges involved and having someone with a bit of
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  experience there can be a huge help.
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  How can companies attract investors effectively, do you
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  think? I think we live in a marketplace
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  of ideas now, and I think the strength of the idea is the
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  thing that will determine success as an executed product.
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  Obviously, every business is an idea and an execution.
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  You can't have one without the other.
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  And one of my favorite things from back in my private equity
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  days was when people would say, oh, I've got a really good idea,
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  but I'm not going to tell you what it is the one thing.
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  But I used to love just relating to them.
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  So I literally just said mate I don't care.
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  Anyone who has enough gumption to get an idea that you think is
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  amazing off the ground, they probably have their own.
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  And even if they don't, the execution is actually a far more
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  important part. But now the idea is actually the
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  more important part because of AI, because if you look at, for
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  example, traditional career paths, another fantastic
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  founder, you know, the the Fox brothers who founded Johnson
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  Hannah, they're coming by the legal industry, shouted to Alex,
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  Actually broke my aunt on a cricket match a couple years
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  back. The funny thing is when you have
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  companies that are innovating and seeing big baggy problems
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  that can be attacked with efficiencies and those
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  efficiencies can be enabled by AI, we're going to see a period
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  of massive change in turbulence. And in a period of massive
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  change in turbulence, the idea and the value of the idea
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  inherent in itself will be the thing that determines success.
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  So for example, Sunstone, the entire idea of Sunstone is what
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  could you what if you could see the actual market and the actual
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  economy as it actually is properly?
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  Because right now nobody can. The only people who have done it
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  is Sunstone. So we've, you know, reordered
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  the entire Irish economy. So if anyone goes to an any
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  other data company and says, show me all the engineering
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  firms, they won't be able to because they won't capture the
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  firms that are miscal or mis aligned within the economy.
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  But I think what's really interesting is that the idea
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  itself is just what if we could get to the truth of something?
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  What if we get the actual answer?
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  How many companies are actually trading in the Irish economy
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  right now? And so if the idea is something
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  as profound as a lot of legal is baggy and wasteful and rinse and
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  repeat and pot boiler stuff, and you know, the Fox brothers come
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  along and take a great big bite out of it with Johnson and
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  Hannah, that's a natural progression of AI.
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  It's a second order effect. And the second order effects are
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  going to be determined by the quality of ideas because
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  execution will become easier with the enhancements enabled by
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  AI. Yeah, I think that's a very
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  insightful way to look at it because I've, I've seen the,
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  the, the number of start-ups now that have been created with AI,
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  it's, you know, at a ridiculous speed For me now, the easiest
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  way to be successful is actually to have the best idea and the
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  best business model that you can take advantage of it because,
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  umm, the competition now is, uh, is just increasing at an
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  exponential rate. If you had one key piece of
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  advice to share on fun in a startup, what would it be?
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  Roger? Well, I'm going to share a
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  slightly adjacent piece of feedback, actually, that
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  occurred to me. Umm, before just that I wanted
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  to say from earlier was actually.
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  Please do. When you think your product is
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  ready, your product is nowhere near ready.
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  I've learned this very much to my detriment over the last sort
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  of 1215 months where, you know, I, I thought we were marketing a
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  product that was at MVP that was really genuinely kind of doing
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  the things. But of course it, it had the
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  stuff under the hood, it had the power, but it wasn't ready.
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  And I think when you think you're ready, you're not ready.
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  When you really think you're ready, you're not ready.
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  When you're absolutely, positively surely sure that
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  you're ready, probably still not ready.
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  So keep going. And I think longevity is
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  probably the key. If you can show those fantastic
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  little moments along the way, your first commercial sale,
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  you're pushing the bubble of the contract value of your company
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  up for, you know, into uncharted territory for the first or
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  second or third time. When you have 1/4 of growth,
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  when you have, you know, a profitable month, these are all
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  fantastic little waypoints to indicate the progress towards
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  potential investors. I think we're only gets a bit of
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  a bad rap in terms of Angel investors and the the lack
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  thereof in this country. But I think if you were to pop
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  on to LinkedIn and fax another shout out to Claire of ISIS
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  Technologies, another one of my founders, foreign group actually
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  has an Angel investor network in Northern Ireland focusing on
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  female founders. And if you simply gone to
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  LinkedIn, you'll find people who are motivated, who are
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  interested, who are looking to help and support and invest.
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  And I just think that if you can keep track and tally and express
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  and explain the trajectory and it's being very much in an
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  upward direction using that grab bag odd basket of factors and
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  show people your progress. People want to come along the
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  journey. People want to support, people
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  want to help. And I think actually Angel
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  investors love seeing this and it makes them feel invested.
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  We've just done something quite incredible, which is that having
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  reordered the entire Irish economy, we've actually built a
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  model of the economy based on Monsell's color wheel.
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  And that idea was given to me by one of my Angel investors who
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  was a professional artist. And she's an absolutely
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  fantastic. She's actually an old
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  shareholder because I have very good strategic discussions with
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  her and the stuff that we discuss somehow permeates and
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  feeds into what I do professionally.
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  So I think having having the ability to tell the story to
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  show where you are along that journey will bring funders with
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  you, you and they will help and push you to the next level.
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  Also be very aware of, you know, microfinance lending, always
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  very useful, grid finance, linked finance, that kind of
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  stuff. You know, there are ways of, of,
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  of attaining short term solutions.
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  If you run into one of those scary months that you're trying
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  to figure out what it is that you need to do to get to the
• 17:22
  31st without, you know, falling over, you know, there are plenty
• 17:26
  of options out there now. And the market is proliferating
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  as well, which is great news. Yeah, I think certainly it's
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  it's getting better in Ireland for startups and the supports
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  there for them. Roger, thanks so much for
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  calling the podcast. It was really interesting to
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  learn about Sunstone and your founder's journey.
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  Well, it was an absolute pleasure speaking with you and
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  thank you very much for the time.
• 17:49
  Thanks, Roger. Hi.
• 17:54
  Thanks for listening to this week's episode of the Founders
• 17:57
  and Funding Podcast. If you like to be a guest, to
• 17:59
  have a guest suggestion, please get in touch.
• 18:02
  Thank you.