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Managing Remotely · Mental Health Matters

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters with me, Dr.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Audrey Tang.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_02: And me, Judith Crozier.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_02: This is the show where we take a deep dive into all things mental health and well-being with the experts and the practitioners and the people who are doing this day to day.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: Now, today's show is shaped around a question from one of our viewers and listeners.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_02: They are a manager and they are a remote manager.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_02: I'm not sure whether their team is remote, I'm not sure whether they are remote, but either way, they're not on the spot.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the things that was pointed out was no one's talked about this.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_02: And they're absolutely right.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_02: We haven't I thought about the shows.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: In two years of shows, we've never covered remote.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_02: We talk about work from home, but we don't talk about it in the context of management or that's true.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_02: So this is what we're going to be doing the show on today is the difficulties that managers might have when someone works from home or if they work from home themselves.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_02: And this is something that's crept up on us since COVID.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_02: Before COVID, we were just automatically assuming, oh, we were all working in the office.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_02: As a freelancer, I wasn't.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_02: So I've already got the work from home mindset and I know how I manage my own time, but that's me managing myself.
• 1:18
  SPEAKER_02: So what things have you noticed, perhaps, if you've gone from an office into more work from home or freelancing that that maybe now we're starting to think about it need to be talked about?
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_03: Well, I also did some work from home in the last 20 years, not very much, but I did do it.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: And then I was a teacher, so obviously I was, you know, I can't really do that remotely.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_03: Well, they did kind of in COVID do that remotely, but that's a whole other story.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_03: Um I think that there's more micromanagement now from so many people who work in the same field as me, my other job.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: Um the the the biggest uh complaint I hear from them is that their line manager is micromanaging remotely and it drives them mad.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_03: And it's it's a I suppose it's a question of trust, or I don't really know what that's about.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_03: It must be a bit about trust, it must be a bit about just not being able to physically see what that person's doing in front of them.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and this is something I hear a lot at conferences is trust, and we are going to be asking our wonderful guest about this.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_02: We have today got Dr.
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_02: Haley Lewis of Halo Psychology.
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_02: She is back on the show, she's one of our regular experts.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_02: She did her PhD in female entrepreneurs, so I think that's really important.
• 2:34
  SPEAKER_02: And we are now going to be asking her all about the hybrid workplace and management within that.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let's bring her on.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_02: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, Haley.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_02: It's always great to speak with you.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_02: It's great to be here.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you for having me, but this one's a very special one.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_02: We had a request from a listener, and then thought, well, Dr.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_02: Haley's coming on the show.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: This is the perfect person to be able to deal with this, and this is about remote working and remote managing in particular.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: So this is the request.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_02: Um this is a manager.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_02: It's it I wasn't clear whether she was on site with some of her team or whether she was having to manage off-site, but either way, she's having to manage some of her team remotely.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_02: Wow.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the issues that she's having is um that she doesn't want to check up on them.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_02: She, you know, it feels a bit icky to be of what you're doing.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_02: So to start with, what are some of the unique issues that working from home or remote managing presents for people these days?
• 3:44
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think I think there's a couple that I tend to see in my work with managers.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think the lack of regular connection.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: You know, when you're when you're sat together, perhaps in an office space together, you're there, you overhear each other, you can just have that odd chat.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_00: So there's that lack of regular connection, and and we all know, the three of us know, social connection is really important for workplace well-being.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: I think the second thing that I see, and maybe the manager has written in the question is experiencing this, is miscommunication.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you know, it's it's so easy to misinterpret or miss the the cues, the social cues, the body language that we kind of take for granted when we're in person in front of someone.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: You can't always pick that up when you're in a little box like this, and you definitely can't pick it up if if the person's out of sight, out of mind.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: And on that note, there's in psychology, there's something that we call distance or proximity bias, and that's where we are much more likely to pay attention to and place more value on things that are nearby, and so the further someone is away from us, particularly geographically, out of sight, out of mind, and then that loneliness can ensue for that person.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: The manager can be kind of wondering what's going on.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_00: So, those are the kind of the key things that I see pop up when whenever I work with managers on this.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and that really does echo some of the things that just she mentioned anecdotally was that she struggles with wanting to give enough support, but not actually knowing whether that's too much support because that instant communication, that instant being able to rectify something isn't there.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_02: You've got to kind of formally, is this what you need?
• 5:48
  SPEAKER_02: Oh no, no, this isn't what I need.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_02: It's just a bit much.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_02: And then I broadened this and spoke to other managers who have who work on the site but then have teams outside.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_02: One of the key things they said was the hard thing is getting the equipment for the teams to actually work properly at home or wherever they need to be.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: And the other thing is um checking in feels like checking up.
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's true.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's I know it's just one word difference, but it makes such a huge impact.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, what might help A practically and B emotionally when it comes to setting up work from home?
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so before I I I kind of jumped to my advice, there I mean, this is hot off the press.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: There was a new study that came out earlier this year that looked at it was a it was a it was a study based in Canada, but I think we can take some of the findings for our context.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And the researchers were really interested in um hybrid remote working and the quality of the relationship a manager has with the direct reports, and what they found is that hybrid or remote working didn't in and of itself impact um kind of the the manager relationship with staff.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: What did was the way that managers monitored and the quality of the relationship that already existed, right?
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so um there are two forms of monitoring that we see um in the workplace, and in particular in relation to remote and hybrid working.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: So there's something called observational monitoring, and that's the kind of the the really kind of sneaky observing people without them knowing, um you know, checking are they online, um and and kind of observing them without their their input, yeah, and then there's the healthier version which is called interactional monitoring, and the the kind of the clues in the in the word interaction because you're engaging in a meaningful two-way interaction, and so my advice to managers is first of all, regularly reflect on and check in on the quality of the relationships that you have with each of your team members, and if there's a relationship that you think isn't the greatest quality, well, it starts with you.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's my mantra with managers, it starts with you.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: So, what's the one thing that you could do to improve the quality of that relationship?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think um making sure that you have regular, meaningful one-to-ones um, where important things get raised, um, where you're raising important issues.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And one of my favourite questions to suggest managers ask in those kind of interactional monitoring is to ask the direct report the question, what's the one thing I can help you with?
• 8:56
  SPEAKER_02: Nice, and that's so simple.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, that's so simple.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_02: And it doesn't feel as if you're putting any pressure or anything like that, it's just a simple question, but it also puts the onus on that person to be able to say, Oh, I need this to happen, as opposed to someone trying to solve a problem that maybe didn't exist.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's really helpful, really helpful.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, very true.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_03: Um, and are there any best practices um for managers whose teams are remote?
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, great question.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks, Judith.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: I think I don't know about you, um, and there's research that backs this up.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: When when we're spending a large proportion of our time online, so if you've got a if you've got a team that's that's primarily remote or hybrid, and so you're having to meet in online spaces or have training in online spaces, we know there's an additional kind of cognitive load, it's it can be extra stressful, it we know people get tired a lot quicker.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_00: And so one of the things that I've seen, and I and I've been frustrated to see across the different sectors I work with is meeting culture coming in, even in the remote or or hybrid online space, and so people are in back-to-back meetings, but this time they're in back-to-back online meetings.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: So when we think about the role of the team manager, I think you have a great opportunity as a as a manager to really reflect on what meetings are needed to reduce the length of online meetings, get rid of unnecessary ones, um, record team meetings for people who can't be there.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a real plus when you're if you're meeting online.
• 10:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, some clients I've worked with, not everyone does this, but I really like this.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: Um, having a having an online water cooler chat area.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_00: Ah because there's a real power, you you know, when we're meeting in person and then we all have those chats as we leave the room, and some you know, that's a real form of connection, and so creating a space online where people can have that water cooler chat and they have that permission.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the other thing from an inclusivity perspective, and this is something that I've seen with some teams that I work with, is you might have a if if you've got a meeting booked in, it might just so happen that everyone else is in the office, but one of the team members is elsewhere.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, I've seen that happen.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, absolutely.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: To stop that being exclusive, my suggestion to managers is to make sure everyone is on a separate laptop.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, because it can feel really exclusive if I'm patching in and I can see everyone else is sat together, yeah, and I'm here, a big head on a screen.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Whereas if we're all patching in on our laptops, then we're together, yeah.
• 12:11
  SPEAKER_02: I really like that latter one because one of the biggest problems that people have said is that when somebody is patching in as well, it's that awkwardness of waiting for their line to talk, not knowing who's talking, and then and then there is a frustration with the people in the room not on uh online, who were all going, but we can have this conversation really quickly, so it makes it even more exclusive.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_02: So really good suggestion.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_02: I like that a lot.
• 12:37
  SPEAKER_03: And I've actually been that person because when in one of previous work um I could uh dial in um if say once I wasn't well on for a meeting, so I did that.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_03: So everyone else was in the room on one laptop and I dialed in from the other.
• 12:53
  SPEAKER_03: But so it was pointless in me being there because they just they can easily ignore a screen and then they just talk and you're just like oh okay.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_03: So it I really get that, and it's a ri and I have suggested that actually that that everyone dials in from their room and they're like, oh no, it's alright, we just use one.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_03: So it's a really, really good point.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_03: I really yeah, I really like that suggestion.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_03: And if um a team hasn't had a structure from the beginning, how can that be um implemented by the the manager?
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_03: How can they yeah, how can how can they do that implementation with everybody remote?
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_03: So um, you know, without it it sounding like oh today we've got this new structure, I read the book on it, you know, over the weekend kind of thing.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_00: So I've been on a training course.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, exactly.
• 13:40
  SPEAKER_02: No, we're doing it like this.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, I'm a big fan of when it comes to so so the main thing that I I work with managers on is um how to create a high performing team.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: Doesn't matter if it's remote or hybrid or all in person.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things at the heart of that is the importance of co-design and collaboration, uh, in particular, uh, working together to agree the social norms and the rules of the game, and so you could uh a manager, and and I've known managers do this really well, is you can have a 60-minute um collaboration session where you work through, you pose the question um, what do we need to have in place that enables us to work really well as a hybrid team or a remote team?
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: What are the things we need to think about?
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And so everybody's had the chance to input.
• 14:38
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if people don't input, that's their choice, they're adults, but you've given them the space and a framework and ask questions where people can contribute.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: It also means it's not just solely on your shoulders as the manager, and and what I found over the years is when things like the ways of working, the rules for how we're gonna work together, when they're co-created, people are more likely to adhere to them because it's theirs, they've not it's not been something that's been foisted upon them.
• 15:11
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, I love that.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's really helpful, and also asking that question, it doesn't feel quite so much that oh, I've got this great new idea.
• 15:20
  SPEAKER_02: But sometimes you just take ownership of that, and that's also okay because clearly to say that it hasn't been working, and if you're feeling it, your team is probably likely to feel it as well.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_02: So maybe they'll find it a relief.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_02: Amazing.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_02: We're gonna keep Dr.
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_02: Haley, and then we'll be back after a clip from the last time Dr.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_02: Haley was on the show.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: Um are some of the damaging myths about success that can lead to burnout.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think there are three that are really pervasive, and and I'm sure your your your viewers will have um or listeners will have will have come across these.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: So I think we all have the same 24 hours a day.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: Uh which we know is absolute nonsense.
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, don't don't compare me against Taylor Swift or Beyoncé because they've got a whole crew behind them, I don't.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do whatever it takes, and if you and if you don't, you really don't want it enough.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's quite a tough one.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I see that quite a lot.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um because that puts it all on you.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, of course, there's an element of the part that we play in our success, but sometimes there are things going on around us as well.
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the other one is um well, we all go through this, it's it's a rite of passage.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: This that you know, you've got to go through the hard stuff to be success as an entrepreneur or a business owner.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I went through it.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: What makes you any different?
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: So it's this notion that um I went through it, so you should.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: You're not questioning whether what you're going through is is is right or fair or not.
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: So those are the things that you're doing.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_03: Or no one deserves no one deserves to be more successful than you because you know you you've had a hard time, so why should someone else not you know you have to go through the hard time?
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, spot on 100%.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: So those are those are the three that I see pop up constantly, particularly on social media, but also in things like The Apprentice.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to Mental Health Matters, where we're having a great discussion with Dr.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_03: Haley Lewis um of Halo Psychology about remote management.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_03: It's really interesting already, this discussion.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so Haley, how can a manager who finds some who works themselves remotely uh find well-being support when they need it?
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: My caveat, first of all, is one size doesn't fit all.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I mean Audrey's the expert in this stuff.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Really, we should be asking Audrey to well-being, but um I think a couple of things that spring to mind when I think of some of the managers that I've worked with.
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I think first of all, if you work in a larger organization, because I think there's different contexts, if you work in a larger organization and you're um listening or watching to this episode, it's probably that you've got some kind of in-house support that you can access, so you can reach out to your HR or occupational health team if you have one for some advice.
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: If you've got an intranet, um, in my experience, a really good company intranet will have videos and resources and signposting.
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: So um that would be a suggestion for somebody in a larger organization.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think if you're in a smaller organization, or it might be your business, so you might be self-employed with some staff.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think think about what you need.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is it the actually one of the things you're feeling is lonely, and that's impacting your well-being?
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: So, do you need to talk to someone?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: And that could be that you um reach out and and work with a coach, or it could be you reach out to another business owner that you've met for a coffee, or maybe join a community of of other um business owners.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I I think that one of the last times that I spoke to you, we talked about my research into female entrepreneurship, and one of the um top things that that help business female business owners navigate some of the gnarliness was the community, the network.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and then I think again, if you're in a smaller organization um or you work for yourself with a team, a little team around you.
• 19:58
  SPEAKER_00: There's also so many great online resources.
• 20:00
  SPEAKER_00: There's this podcast, you know, go back through some of the episodes, see if anything resonates with how you're feeling.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, people like myself, um, and Audrey and others, we we we're often writing articles.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: I've got lots of articles and downloads on well-being.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so that would be my suggestion if you're in an organization that doesn't have access to lots of resources.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think it depends on the context.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, hopefully there's some ideas for people there.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_02: No, that's that's definitely really, really good, and you're absolutely right.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_02: With the larger organizations, the funny thing is, I notice when I speak to people, they know there's an intranet, they've just not looked.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_02: It's such an odd thing, and it's only when they're forced to do it because one of their team needs it, that's when they suddenly go, Oh, I didn't realise you can get mental health support.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_03: You know, it's there if you if you look for it, I guess.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_03: Um, brilliant.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_03: And if somebody um if there's one person that's you know holding everything together and that they're the only one doing that all the time, what question should they be asking themselves about that?
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: So, this is my favourite question to uh so whenever I'm coaching leaders and managers who to who who are experiencing that, the question I ask them to reflect on is what am I prepared to let go of?
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: Good question.
• 21:25
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you're holding everything, and you know the clue is in what you said, Judith, you know, if you're holding everything, then a lot of that is it's you, and so what are you prepared to let go of?
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_02: I think that's again so simple.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_02: The answer may be not quite so simple, but it's important to start reflecting on that question because you will, you will, when you start thinking about it, recognise there are some things that it's just not serving you to hold on to, and actually some things that you're holding on to out of habit, not actually because it's serving anybody.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: a lot of the time I think with working from home now remote working and hybrid working, this has become a bit frog in boiling water.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_02: It's happened to us slowly and so we haven't necessarily had the time to do a right because we've got half the team hybrid, let's actually change the structure here.
• 22:16
  SPEAKER_02: It's just crept in.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_02: Which then brings me to the next question on we talk about work from home and the flexibility and it's great.
• 22:25
  SPEAKER_02: However, is there some scope for maybe saying well office hours do have to be adhered to to some degree because otherwise you get a situation where somebody's working from home.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_02: They are doing their eight hours.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_02: It's that's not the issue.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_02: They're just doing them between 8 and 4am kind of thing not actually doing it in work hours.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_02: Which means that if you're emailing me at midnight I'm not going to have the answer to your question.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_02: Is there some kind of well let's stick to some kind of boundaries here?
• 22:57
  unknown: Yeah.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_00: And what you've hit the nail on the head about boundaries and this goes back to my point around co-design and and agreeing some rules and boundaries and not everyone can work exactly the same hours you know somebody might have caring commitments.
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: There might be neurodivergence so for example some people that I know who have ADHD and we know ADHD can show up in different ways but um some of the clients that I've worked with who have ADHD they do their best work in this we small hours and so for me there's something about um agreeing okay how can we work in a way that that that keeps the business flourishing keeps our bit of the business flourishing and and that helps us to to flourish as well let's have a conversation about what what works but there's also something for me and this goes back to when I was a manager for me it was about quality rather than bums on seats because somebody could be diligently nine to five yeah but the quality of their work is not that great.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_00: And so you're having to maybe do some rework yeah which adds to the overload and the burnout of you as a manager.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: And so there's something about also defining what good quality work means in your context and what good quality what you're expecting in terms of good quality work from each direct report.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that's that's a nice we don't talk about that enough actually because the assumption is if the work gets done it's good and it's like no that's not always the case.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_02: If the work gets done it's right on the deadline and it's not good you are going to have to do something more in order to make it better.
• 24:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: And and some of my if I think back to my you know I've managed lots of teams um over the over the years um some of the poorest performers were the ones who did the eight hours nine to five every day actually and some of the best performers were those who were a little bit left field in how they worked.
• 25:10
  SPEAKER_00: And for me as a manager it was important to kind of lean into both of those sets of issues and think about how to handle them.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_02: And quality is a big thing because I know there's managers who will say they're working longer than their nine to five but the quality is still not quite there.
• 25:27
  SPEAKER_02: It's not that they're not putting the hours in and they can this is on site they can see them working.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_02: So what about um what about when someone's not doing that?
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_02: So you've had the co-design meeting you've agreed it the organisation's put in a structure you've put in a structure all of that someone is still not doing because and then you have the chat and they say oh I only had to just pick up my child that day or I only had to run to the medical appointment that day but it's not just that day.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: So how do you again start bringing in a little bit more support and development work without again sounding oh I'm keeping my eye on you or maybe you do I think maybe you need to in that case yeah yeah well I I I think it doesn't matter if it's if if it's with someone in person or it's someone remote call it out early early on um have a have an a meaningful balanced evidence based conversation where you give feedback but also you're asking for their perspective because you might be missing some context some important context as to what's happened and then agree um kind of agree what's going to happen next and when a next check-in's going to happen.
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah so for example if somebody's missed a deadline on an important project and they haven't even started it explore what's happened get benefit of the doubt was there something that you're missing and then agree okay what's the first thing that you're gonna do what's the first action when are you going to do that by and we'll meet back then on that day because there's a power in that accountability and sometimes that accountability can fall by the wayside out of sight out of mind yes so that that proximity bias and so by making yourself an accountability partner you're overcoming that proximity bias you're you're bringing them nearer to you even if they're geographically further away.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes yes because you've agreed the times that you're going to meet and then they might feel some relief over that and it might be that they didn't know that they could reach out or ask questions and and so on and they're actually just suffering in silence.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_02: There can be so many different reasons so you're absolutely right to asking the questions is is absolutely key.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_02: This is a very important conversation because we have gone into a lot of hybrid now we do need to talk about this more and I know the manager wrote it spoke spoke to me actually as well because they just hadn't seen anything on this topic.
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_02: So we are keeping Dr.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_02: Haley and we'll be back uh just after a clip from the last time Haley was on the show.
• 28:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't I don't teach uh because I think it's a personal journey that people make that I can't believe I use the word journey.
• 28:25
  SPEAKER_00: It has to come up at least once of course it doesn't coach or suggest so my three suggestions all now are things that client have worked for me many of my clients have found for me and the things that I've experimented with as well.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: The first thing is label your boundaries non-negotiable compromise because I think one of the things we can look in is is is we can be there's a boundary where I'm like that's not shifting that actually there's a boundary where I can shift if I need it.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_02: That allows us more breathing space welcome back to mental health matters we are talking about management when you're in a hybrid or remote work from home or this you're either working from home as a manager or your team's working from home all of those combinations and we've got Dr.
• 29:32
  SPEAKER_02: Haley Lewis with us and she's been really giving some very very helpful tips and tools that you can use in order to make that process a lot better for yourself and for your teams.
• 29:44
  SPEAKER_02: And one of the big questions I always get asked at conferences this is this is one of the ones that's so popular is trust.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: Ah you get a lot of managers going well how do I trust them how do I know that they're working from home if I'm not monitoring them the whole time and that comes from the manager side and I always have to get if that's the way if that's the attitude you're taking what kind of relationship do you think you have with people in the first place so that's what I end up saying in conferences.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_02: But if you're in that situation about trust how do you work on that productivity and the quality we talk about when you cannot see them I mean you've answered the question Audrey because I think there are several things you need to reflect on as a manager.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Are they producing what you need them to are they producing what you need them to when you need it and are they producing what you need them to when you need it and to the quality that you need it's like the Holy Trinity if you like what what's the issue is it one of those things two of those things three of those things and then you can engage in the conversation because I think it even if just one of those things falls off that then our trust starts to drop um and again it goes back to a point I made earlier tackle this stuff as soon as possible we should be giving feedback as soon as um the thing happens if we leave it too long it loses its meaning and its impact but it's again it starts with you that is my mantra it starts with you reflecting on what's the issue here why am I not trusting and then you can engage in the conversation.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_02: Yes reflect on yourself first isn't it and and and there may be absolutely genuine reasons why you're not trusting somebody but then are you giving the feedback that's going to actually make the difference.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_02: And then another question is some people choose remote work deliberately because actually they don't want to be part of a workplace culture.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_02: And actually I get that and there is that as you mentioned neurodivergence as well there it can be really helpful for someone who really wants to work and is really good at the work but just doesn't want this whole culture thing.
• 32:08
  SPEAKER_02: So how's the manager can you balance that get involved and here's our culture and we all love each other and the person who's going I really no no that I'll do my work I will do it to the quality I don't want to go out with you thank you yeah yeah there there has to be a there has to be a purpose for people coming together I mean what's really interesting is I'm seeing more and more research about the impact the the potential downside of people always being at home and never having that connection so that loneliness epidemic epidemic we hear that phrase um a lot more now um I think again there was a a study another study that came out this year and they were really interested in this concept called the activity based office so an ABO I think there's been a bit of a backlash we've we've um there's been all sorts of media reports about um Chief XX demanding that people come back to the office um and there was another study from Winchester University that where um participants talked about feeling betrayed um when they were being forced to go back to the office.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway this other study they talk about you can create an activity based office and an ABO is about intentionally having a space which fosters collaboration and innovation so you're not having your bog standard team meetings you're not getting everybody in person for a bog standard team meeting where everyone's like yes these KPIs and um but it might be maybe once a quarter you bring everyone together in person um in an activity based um office format where you're doing a workshop maybe you're developing a new service or product or maybe you're coming up with ideas um to to kind of grow the business or improve the service if you're public sector um so there's a there's that kind of more creative and innovative purpose of bringing people together as well as the additional benefit of people connecting in person.
• 34:28
  SPEAKER_00: The one thing I would caution though is cost because if you've hired for remote so I see that on LinkedIn all the time with job um with jobs that are promoted on on LinkedIn where it says you know 100% remote if you've hired for remote you might have a member of the team who's in a completely different part of the country or in another country and so there's the cost of travel and accommodation as well so I think if that's not an issue for you then think about that activity based office approach where you bring the whole team together but there is a very clear purpose it has a creative and innovative and improvement aspect it's not just your bog standard team meetings.
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_02: Yes I like that idea and also for people who are just happy working from home remotely by themselves not wanting to see anybody actually it doesn't hurt for them to get out sometimes 100%.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_02: Or they will develop themselves a little bit when they get there because I think it's so easy to not do something and then then you get scared of doing it and then suddenly you get scared of doing other things as well.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_02: And that's where the problems start.
• 35:42
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah and I see that in people I know that work from home I've I've seen that and they become hermits really.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah the thought of going outside the front door is really scary it is a wellbeing aspect.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_03: Yes and if it's work they kind of have to go so it's a good way of getting them getting them there I suppose yeah um so how do you decide then if something needs to be addressed on Teams or Zoom or face to face or on WhatsApp or an email how how are there specific things that have to be addressed face to face for example?
• 36:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think if it's a sensitive topic where certain emotions might pop up the the person might get upset you might get upset I I think that's better in person.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: Because also again as I got as I said at the start of today's conversation you can pick up on cues that you you might otherwise miss.
• 36:38
  SPEAKER_00: They can pick up on cues too they can they can see that you're really listening.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: As a thought you know in a in my dim and distant and murky past I was ahead of communications and some of my team were ex-journalists and one of the things that I we used to talk about is ask yourself would I be comfortable someone coming across this conversation yeah um yeah and so if I've if if if I've had this conversation with someone on WhatsApp or email and it starts to get a little bit argy bargy which can happen because we can misunderstand and misinterpret each other I mean in some context that's open to a freedom of information request.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah that's just what I was thinking would I be happy I we used to call it the um uh in my team uh and as I say that lots of them were ex-journalists we used to call it the Daily Mail test would I be happy being on the front page of the Daily Mail and so that's a good question to ask yourself would I be happy for this conversation to be out in the world um and so yeah my advice is always if it's if it's likely to be sensitive um where stuff could potentially be misinterpreted face to face is always best or a phone call is next best.
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah okay brilliant I really love that the Daily Mail list and it's so true because we've seen it we've seen it bring down how many prime ministers now absolutely you know so yeah we know it happens yeah good uh it's a good um a good a good test you're right um this has been so brilliant um where can we where can we learn more about you and and thank you very much oh you're welcome um I mean I'm on LinkedIn a lot uh so dr hayley lewis on linkedin I share lots of resources there uh my website has lots of resources uh and over 200 articles for managers so that's um halopsychology.com I'm sure it'll be in the show notes and I'm on Instagram so at Haypsych so H A Y Psych and I share lots of stuff there as well and you've got your own podcast as well I do yeah thanks Audrey yes uh yeah so my my podcast in comparison to yours is is but a baby um it's called Manage with confidence we're about to finish season one it's a podcast purely for people managers or people who develop people managers so we cover all sorts of the the issues the ups and downs and all arounds that people managers um face and I've had some brilliant guests perfect amazing thank you so much Dr Haley and we'll head over to test the trend for test the trend and you can try this along with us on set at the moment.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_02: I'd like you to think of one of the people that you work with.
• 39:42
  SPEAKER_02: So it might be a team member it might be a manager whoever it is some person one person that you work with so I'd like you to have a think about one person you work with and I'd like you to write down or in Judith's case it's going to be list um the things that you know about them because you can see them.
• 40:00
  SPEAKER_03: So what things might you say about that person because you can see them a bit scatty uh very well meaning um running late yeah I'm not talking about myself by the way I could be but I'm not I just realised some this person's reflecting me but anyway um yeah works as hard as she possibly can but quite distracted by stuff going on yeah okay so that's because you can see them and that's how they're putting them that's how they're presenting themselves.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_03: Yes exactly so now I'd like you to just think about what might be going on beneath the surface so can you have a thing and maybe give some reasons for that sort of behaviour um yes they have a lot going on in their lives they have teenagers um family members that need looking after um older and younger so yeah there's a a lot going on for them okay this is the killer question to ask yourself especially if you are a manager which one of those two lists are you managing that's so good it's a killer question isn't it and it is going to be the former it is going to be you're gonna say of course we're managing the scattiness the lateness and we're managing that by reprimanding or development or and actually if we were to say do you need some help with childcare on the intranet we've got all of these things you might find the problem solved yeah or even just let me know if there's something going on and you can't make it or you're gonna be late or you can't do what I've asked you to do.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_02: Because then you can manage the thing that's the root of the issue.
• 41:45
  SPEAKER_02: So those are the questions what are you looking at because you can see them what's going on beneath the surface which one of those two are you managing that's your test the trend challenge this week I'm so glad we had this discussion today because Dr.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_02: Haley's brought up so many things which I haven't really thought about because when I first started even giving sessions on working from home and talking to managers or talking to teams who are working remotely it was all about have you got the tools to do it the practical aspect are you able to wire in are you able to contact each other we don't actually think about what you're contacting somebody about no that's right or the the or the kind of the wider implications of all of it you know whatever the contact is yeah yeah um it was so interesting to to listen to her and also it just kind of reframed everything a little bit in my head because um so I've got family members and I work from home and you know my husband works from home and what what I hear from as I said before is their managers want to know what they're doing at any given time.
• 42:56
  SPEAKER_03: And one of my family members every time he logs on to his work system you know it times so they can see exactly to the second how long they're on that for.
• 43:05
  SPEAKER_03: But you know what Haley was saying was that if you get the work done to a really good standard and on time kind of what else is there?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_03: Really?
• 43:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah that's the conversation hasn't it's been all about trusting are they going to do their work whereas Haley's turned it around completely and talks about the quality of what's going on the quality of the relationship with everybody and that all really helps especially when you might be as a manager going oh I've just kind of fallen into this remote working hybrid.
• 43:38
  SPEAKER_02: Let's dial it back a little and maybe set up a structure that suits everybody and that's where the co-designing comes in.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah absolutely right and and I love the the exactly the the sort of the co bringing everyone together and saying how shall we do it rather than the manager going like you said you know or like you you were saying about this we're going to do this today.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_03: So making everyone feel part of it is and actually on that there is no book on it yet.
• 44:07
  SPEAKER_02: So so you can say I watch the podcast and this is what we're going to do and that is to have that conversation about co-designing how you're going to go forward working from home or working remotely.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_02: From all of us here at Mental Health Matters have a healthy weekend