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How One Word Shouted at His Car in Uganda Shaped Jeff Davis’s View of Himself · I Don't Know You

• 0:04
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, I'm Matt,
• 0:05
  SPEAKER_01: and welcome to my recorded conversations for I Don't Know You,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: my search in learning from leaders about their stories and applying their lessons
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: to my own journey as I seek to better understand myself.
• 0:15
  SPEAKER_01: If you enjoy what you hear or have a guest you'd like me to ask on, I'd love to hear from you.
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: You can shoot me a DM,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: subscribe wherever you listen to this,
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: share it with a friend, and follow me for more of this kind of content.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Today, I'm joined by my friend Jeff Davis.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: He's a husband, father,
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_01: and after spending two decades in corporate tech,
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_01: spent another 20 helping ministries and nonprofits with executive search.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: He and his wife, Julie,
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: have been married for 45 years,
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_01: They're high school sweethearts,
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: and they've got two daughters, both grown, both of whom he calls his best friends.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: I came into this conversation full of questions about his career and
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: the nonprofit work that he's doing, but we got almost none of them answered.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_01: Instead,
• 0:56
  SPEAKER_01: we spent most of our time talking about family,
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_01: marriage, and the blessing of raising kids.
• 1:01
  SPEAKER_01: This was a unique conversation because I didn't really see it coming.
• 1:04
  SPEAKER_01: I hope you enjoy it.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: That's such an interesting take on like ministry where because in our travels,
• 1:12
  SPEAKER_01: I've definitely seen that before.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Like there will be kind of a closed mindedness to like, oh, you're American.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not that interested in getting to know you for a plethora of reasons.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of them probably is because we're American and there's all kinds
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: of stereotypes around that.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: And then the moment that you kind of engage and you say,
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: hey, I want to learn what ham means in French.
• 1:34
  SPEAKER_00: As soon as you offer a greeting or a phrase or something like that
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_00: in their language, everybody goes, ah, wow, what did you do?
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so then when you say, well, how do I say this?
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: And then you start trying and they laugh and they laugh at you
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: because you're failing so miserably.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: But it's just such a, it just breaks down barriers.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: But there's a project to work on.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Like there's camaraderie and collaboration.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_00: Project to work on to which they are the expert.
• 2:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you've got these Americans that have this mystique of,
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: of, um, you know, wanting to get things done.
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, that's why the Africa Africans call us Mzungu.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Hmm.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_00: Um, Mazungu
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: means white man busily running around looking at his watch.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_00: That's the literal translation.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And so you drive by in the car and the kids are going, Mazungu, Mazungu, Mazungu.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it's like, well, it'd be like in a Spanish context referring to myself as gringo.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's self-deprecating and it levels the field.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_01: How did you learn about that word mzungu?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Well, just being there and hearing them refer to me as that and then asking them,
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: what does that mean?
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_00: It means white men running around looking at watch.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so it comes from the colonial times.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: It comes from the Western Europeans who came to Africa and were modernizing
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_00: and bringing the Western ways.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you just learn that.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: And there's so much left over.
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: In terms of their speech patterns and their idiomatic expressions and things like
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: that go back to the Western colonialism in these countries.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I was driving with my friend Moses in Uganda and we enter a traffic circle,
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: you know, and it takes an hour to get through it.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: It takes an hour to go.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_00: A hundred feet.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: And he's frustrated and he throws his hands up and says, we were better off under the British.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_00: My people were children,
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: and of course he doesn't mean that,
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: but it's just this exasperation of looking around and saying, this is insane.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And so he makes up, you know, an 18th century reference.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: That is hilarious and sort of mortifying at the same time where it's like,
• 5:00
  SPEAKER_01: oh, you don't know what you're saying, man.
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_01: But also, I get it.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: Like, yeah, it's so funny that you...
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: That you talk about,
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: like even the word Mzunga and the meaning of that,
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was literally thinking about this this morning and I don't know why,
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_01: but maybe for this conversation, um, that was just put in my mind.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_01: But, um, when we were traveling, like.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: I would try and greet people in their own language and then they would have
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: the expectation that I knew their language.
• 5:30
  SPEAKER_01: And so they were like, oh, let me just talk to you in German or in Italian very, very quickly.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, sorry, I don't speak.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so I basically reverted back to my American ways of
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_00: speaking.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_00: But a Swahili or a Lugandan or something like that speaker wouldn't have that expectation.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: They would say, wow, you did that.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then you say, that's all I know.
• 5:58
  SPEAKER_00: And they're like, well,
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_00: of course,
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: but a German or an Italian or a French person would be in a,
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: in a case where people are multilingual and they would,
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: you know, if you started out the greeting like that, they would expect you to know.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, that was when my father,
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_00: my father was on a college trip, uh,
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_00: in the fifties and they went to Europe in the middle East and,
• 6:24
  SPEAKER_00: and they were in Germany and,
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_00: and, And there was a housekeeper that was doing something in the room.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: And he said, ah, sehr gut.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_00: And she went in German.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: And he just kept saying, ah, ja, ja.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_00: And had no idea what she was saying and finally left the conversation.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: But as far as she knew, he was tracking.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's the beauty of listening well, as most people will continue to talk too.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: But it gave me just an interesting,
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: even the meaning of Mzunga,
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: I felt that in what you were just talking about,
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_01: where even my efficiency-minded,
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_01: maybe that's not an American thing, but that mindset...
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_01: Man looking at watch, like,
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: I felt that even in the conversation where I was like,
• 7:29
  SPEAKER_01: well, I'm not going to start the conversation in their language.
• 7:32
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to start it in English so that, like,
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_01: they have that expectation going in so that we can get
• 7:38
  SPEAKER_01: the information we need faster.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's like, oh man,
• 7:42
  SPEAKER_01: why am I not slowing down and building Kind of a bridge of collaboration and
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: a project to work on.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm the project.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: But the flip side is English is such a good tool because it
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_00: an international language of business.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a demand for it.
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we were in Cambodia a year ago and our purpose was to have an English camp.
• 8:07
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, the students came.
• 8:14
  SPEAKER_00: Not to learn English so much in terms of vocabulary, but to hear it spoken by a native speaker.
• 8:24
  SPEAKER_00: So to learn pronunciation, to hear it,
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_00: that was of great value.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so it ended up being an opportunity for evangelism to just offer that opportunity.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_00: And people came.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, that's, I mean, it is,
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: it's awesome that the world language is English for us because it's easier for us
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: in many ways.
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: And then it's like, oh man,
• 8:53
  SPEAKER_01: we'll look at,
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_01: I look at people I know in different parts of the world and they speak.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_01: Five languages fluently.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like,
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_01: we'll talk about an asset that's,
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_01: and different ways of describing yourself and thinking about it.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's like, oh, we've lost that.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_01: Where it's like, yeah, everybody just comes to us because it's the way that we talk.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: I do feel ignorant sometimes about being monolingual and, you know, like a mental midget.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: But it's good.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's good because when you come from the West,
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: Whether you're a humble person or not, you come with a sense of superiority.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes time to recognize it and then to set that aside and say,
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_00: thereby just the place I was born by sheer,
• 9:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in luck, but by sheer randomness.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 9:55
  SPEAKER_00: Um, puts me in a scenario where I have resources
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_00: and this other person doesn't have resources,
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: but they're, they probably work harder than me.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: They're probably smarter than me.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: And it takes time, I think, to recognize that just through building relationships.
• 10:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: And then it also provides a better foundation to build that relationship on
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_00: because it's no longer client patron.
• 10:25
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of relationship, it's person to person.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think that's the beauty of perspective taking and traveling in general.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: And even that idea of traveling,
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: that's a privilege that a lot of people don't get the opportunity to do.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: I would love to have an opportunity to design a curriculum for Gen Z
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: in terms
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: of what would truly educate them.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: Because the things that pass for education in America today or in
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: the West is really just indoctrination.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: It's been surprising to me that in five short years racism could become so,
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: and I shouldn't even call it racism, I should just call it other-ism.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: Should become so prevalent in our culture, in a culture that was working so hard on equality.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: And then that got perverted and it became equity.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: And those things are so different.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: Equal opportunity is different from equal outcomes.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Because equal outcomes is socialism.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_00: How quickly that's taken hold.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: But the qualifier is, has it really taken hold or is it just the media amplifying the
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: extremes?
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_00: When you get together with the people that you know,
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: do they really look like the extremes that we're being
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_00: Hold or taking over?
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, yeah,
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: that's just, I mean,
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: that's its own full podcast episode in and of itself talking about media and
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_01: the role that plays and kind of the echo chambers that a lot
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: of these big tech platforms have built for us and all that kind of stuff.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: But I would be very curious to see what kind of curriculum you'd come up with,
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_01: because I feel like so much of the way that I think about the world
• 12:52
  SPEAKER_01: and my life experience,
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: as short as it's been,
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: has been shaped by travel and by meeting lots of different types of people and
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_01: the diversity of that and being open minded and asking questions.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, cross-cultural experience would be a big aspect of my curriculum.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, totally.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_01: Language learning.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And even understanding like a lot of my experience is, is like old west versus new west.
• 13:26
  SPEAKER_01: So even that, like,
• 13:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm not getting the type of experience that like going to Africa or Asia would,
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: would give me,
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to like old,
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: old Western Europe and stuff like,
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: like that's the majority of where I've spent time and stuff is a lot different there
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: than it is here.
• 13:42
  SPEAKER_01: But, um, yeah, it's still like.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: There's a spectrum and I'm like going along like it's not there's culture shock
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_01: for sure, but not in the same way as like going to Thailand or something.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_00: And yet the American culture that the rest of the world is so hungry
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_00: for is really built out of the old American West.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And not just the Gold Rush era, but the West.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, at one time,
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: the West was, you know, Western Kentucky or was Western Virginia or was Illinois.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that was the West.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And so this pioneer spirit, which the American culture is built on.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_00: And then the American songbook.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, that then influenced, influenced Africa and then Africa influenced the West.
• 14:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, it's just, so, so then my curriculum would also include a lot of history.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and a lot of literature and a lot of Bible, um,
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: but also other,
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_00: um, Other religious writings so that you would have something to compare.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I do believe that Christianity is a superior way of life, even if there were no heaven.
• 15:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: But I think that just like you were talking about traveling,
• 15:29
  SPEAKER_00: you understand where you are so much better if you if you engage
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: in something that's alien from that.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 15:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I don't know where you're at with that, but you got to make that happen, man.
• 15:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is the first time I've heard about this.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, but there are people doing it.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_00: There are people doing it, like Patrick Henry College in Virginia.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, okay.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_00: these educational institutions that have set themselves up to cater to
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: the homeschoolers.
• 16:04
  SPEAKER_00: Austin University.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: That is, you know, was founded by a bunch of substackers.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and so it's classical education.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's liberal arts.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, those are the things that the American founders were steeped in.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, in the 1770s, when
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Our founders were writing the declaration and then 10 years later,
• 16:42
  SPEAKER_00: the Bill of Rights and the Constitution,
• 16:45
  SPEAKER_00: they looked at the Federalist Papers and said, this is not workable.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: But where did they get that?
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't just dream it up.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: They'd been hearing that from the pulpit for 50 years,
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: starting in England and then migrating to America and being
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: What would you call it?
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: You know, being seasoned in that new world.
• 17:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: But when we talk about a Judeo-Christian ethic,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: that it really was these people that were hearing from their pastors
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: and their rabbis and their priests
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: a way that,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_00: something that was built on the foundation of All men are created equal in the eyes
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: of God.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_00: And
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: the Scottish Reformation is not nearly as popular and understood as
• 17:52
  SPEAKER_00: the French Enlightenment.
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_00: The Scottish Enlightenment is where we get the ideas of equality that this nation is built on.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: And yet it evolves out of this horrible,
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: horrible 400-year period of feudalism and racism and injustice,
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: but evolves into
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: this declaration that said all men are created equal and endowed
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: by their creator with certain inalienable rights.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_01: I should know the answer to this, but I don't.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: Have you taught before?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: Have I taught?
• 18:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: A little.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: A little.
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've taught Bible in church.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_00: I've taught business as mission as a guest lecturer in college courses
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_00: at Christian universities.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: I've never had a teaching job.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: Is that something that sounds interesting to you?
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: I mean,
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_01: it's just...
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: That sounds interesting.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: Your depth of understanding and knowledge is just like crazy.
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm just a reader.
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_00: Just a reader.
• 19:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'm reading...
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, right now I'm reading how the...
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: How the Scots Created the Modern World.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: And that's a really good book.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_00: Interesting.
• 19:36
  SPEAKER_01: What's that called?
• 19:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's the title.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: How the Scots Created the Modern World.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Nice.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_00: We learn a lot about Hume and Tindale and guys like that.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: But the nice thing about it is it starts 300 years before that
• 19:54
  SPEAKER_00: and you just realize how awful Things are and yet what what arises from that?
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_01: People.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_01: What are we going to say?
• 20:07
  SPEAKER_00: Well, the progressives that are trying to erase and rewrite American history and say
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_00: that America was founded on the industry of slavery,
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: you know, that is that is so ignorant.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: Of what history really was, because slavery has just been part of the human world forever.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: And the biggest slave-producing
• 20:37
  SPEAKER_00: industries have been in Africa and Middle East,
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_00: and even Irish being enslaved as indentured servants as the first immigrants.
• 20:50
  SPEAKER_00: Coming to the American colonies.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so to say that it was built on that industry.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: No, in fact,
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: it was the American colonies and the American experiment was full of people
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: who were trying to abolish slavery and eventually were successful.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so the trajectory was an abolitionist trajectory, not a...
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_00: Not a foundation upon which a slave state was built.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: You know, that was just the world.
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_00: In those days.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, it's like Jesus.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, no,
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_00: it's like the Apostle Paul saying to slaves,
• 21:36
  SPEAKER_00: slaves, serve your masters as unto the Lord.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: He's not.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: He's not affirming slavery.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: He's just talking about something that is and presenting a radical idea to people as
• 21:47
  SPEAKER_00: though they had a choice.
• 21:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, even just like the Egyptian culture,
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: like the Egyptians built their entire civilization off of,
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: and there's probably a lot more nuance and complexity that I'm not aware of in
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: the history, but like, yeah, that was a slave culture too.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I think just being able to discern through that and understand,
• 22:12
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, like how How history plays such a big role in how we're living in the present.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: And how if we like have revisionist history,
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_01: like that shapes us in some pretty remarkable ways that are
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: critical for us
• 22:28
  SPEAKER_01: to understand and think through.
• 22:31
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_00: The past helps us to understand the present.
• 22:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, and hopefully not to repeat in the future.
• 22:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and the Cincinnatus just said,
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_00: you know, those that ignore history are doomed to repeat it.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: Totally, yeah.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: I'm reading through this trilogy of novels right now.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: It's called Silo.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: That's the umbrella, but each one has a different name.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: And it's now like an Apple TV show.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: But it's kind of an interesting study in a lot of that,
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: like revisionist history and how people...
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_01: Over time,
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: can be shaped by propaganda and how they basically can be beaten to submission
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: in really subtle,
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: nuanced ways over a long time if their history is changed for them.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but even,
• 23:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know who said this,
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: it might also be Cincinnati says history is written by the winners.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: So it really does boil down to the cycles of conquest and migration and
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: things like
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_00: that in terms of what survives and what doesn't.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: There was a book that I read as a high schooler and it just didn't feel right
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: because I was in high school just right after the civil rights movement.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: A decade, a decade and a half.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, you've got a book called The Light and the Glory written by Peter Marshall.
• 24:17
  SPEAKER_00: And it was really well known, well accepted in Christian circles.
• 24:25
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_00: it basically says that America was founded on a manifest destiny and
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: a westward movement.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know,
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_00: when we conquered These indigenous nations,
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_00: we were doing them a favor by conquering and obliterating their pagan culture.
• 24:51
  SPEAKER_00: And we've, you know, our, I think our worldview has evolved since then.
• 24:59
  SPEAKER_00: I don't believe in,
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: doing land acknowledgements and things like that,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 25:05
  SPEAKER_00: that the The history is the history, the past is the past, and now here we are.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_00: But that was a
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: very prejudiced, probably racist worldview that he had.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_00: And since then, we have other ways of looking at that more in terms of equality.
• 25:33
  SPEAKER_00: It would be, I mean...
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Let's say that we went to the moon and we found a culture there.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_00: Would we do anything differently or would we just conquer it?
• 25:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm sure that if the church led that,
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_00: and I don't want the church to have the power of the state because really,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: really bad things happen when that's the case.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if Christians or if we went to another planet with another
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: What are we talking about?
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: Another... Civilization.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_00: Civilization, yeah.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_00: With a Christian worldview, what would we do differently?
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: That's fascinating.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: See, that's a term paper in your class that you got to write.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Have you read Ender's Game?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: I have, yeah.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_00: It's been a while.
• 26:28
  SPEAKER_00: Have you read Speaker for the Dead?
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's really interesting.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_01: Is that the other same guy?
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:34
  SPEAKER_00: As a matter of fact, he was working on that book and couldn't finish it.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so he had to write Ender's Game in order to set the stage for Speaker for the Dead.
• 26:47
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 26:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so it just really broadens your mind in terms of looking at others.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, that's the power of story, I think.
• 27:02
  SPEAKER_01: Those are both novels,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_01: but I think there's some pretty persuasive ideas in them that are subtle and
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: that we just take because it's a novel and it's interesting and fascinating.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
• 27:15
  SPEAKER_01: Wow, this is a very different turn than I thought this conversation would take, and I love it.
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: Do you want to, you know, what direction you want to go?
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_01: Well, first of all,
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm extremely grateful just for your friendship through,
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's been years now that we've known each other, which is awesome.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_01: And just the wisdom that you bring to any conversation that we have
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_01: and your generosity and being willing to hop on a Zoom link and have a conversation.
• 27:50
  SPEAKER_00: I think what I kind of- Well, it's just me and Meshack here today, so- I love it.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I'm glad that this is the first canine guest that I've had on.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm grateful for that too.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: And with such an epic name, like no other dog is going to come close to having a name like that.
• 28:10
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, kind of to set the stage, I'm...
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: There's so many facets as we just talked about for almost half an hour that we could go into.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: But I think what I'm super curious to get your thoughts on and kind of work
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: through your own personal history of this is like touching on your career,
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_01: touching on family and marriage.
• 28:31
  SPEAKER_01: Because a lot of our good conversations have been about that and especially as I am
• 28:37
  SPEAKER_01: a girl dad and I've looked up to you and some of the answers
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_01: that you've given around like how to be a good girl dad and stuff like that.
• 28:45
  SPEAKER_01: I'm curious to get your thoughts on that.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then talking about like the nonprofit world and the ministry side
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: of what you've done with a lot of the skills and talents that you've grown.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_01: In your career.
• 28:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so, like, we'll see what we're doing on time and stuff.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I want to be respectful of that.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_01: But I kind of wanted to set the stage with the marriage and family conversation and
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: then jump into kind of the two different careers that you've experienced.
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: You've worked through,
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_01: because you've had your career in business and for-profit work,
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: and then kind of the ministry side of,
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: and that happened throughout your career and stuff,
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: but at least my understanding that's a lot of the time.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: That you're in now and dedicating to.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I'd love to kind of jump into the family side of that.
• 29:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it's specifically around like you owning your own business and managing that
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_01: and working through that.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'm in a season of Trying to figure that out and work through that and in
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_01: the middle of that very real tension of building something,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_01: but then also trying to build great family and spend lots of time with the kids and
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_01: with my wife and have a great marriage and stuff.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: I'm super curious to Understand how you kind of felt that tension when you were in
• 30:14
  SPEAKER_01: the process of building your own thing.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: Was there attention most within kind of like the time aspect of things or the money
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_01: or emotional or availability?
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I can go back to adolescence and then kind of work fast.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_00: To today, and then maybe provide some insight in hindsight.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, the idiom hindsight is 20-20.
• 30:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's very clear what happened in hindsight.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_00: When that was future, not so clear.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, totally.
• 31:00
  SPEAKER_00: But raised in a Christian home,
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_00: mom and dad, Were committed believers, Christ followers, active in the church.
• 31:13
  SPEAKER_00: Raised me in that environment where I knew what the Bible said by just absorption.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: I knew that Jesus was my Savior by absorption.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, started...
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: Getting older,
• 31:36
  SPEAKER_00: got into my adolescence,
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_00: took all those things for granted,
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_00: was very fascinated or titillated by the world
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: and didn't make any life-altering mistakes.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a testimony that God saved me from
• 32:02
  SPEAKER_00: Substance abuse or, you know, criminal activity or anything like that.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_00: And even though I used to envy people that had these dramatic testimonies,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_00: at my age now, I understand that the dramatic testimony comes at a great cost.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I never had to pay that cost.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_00: And I have been closer to the Lord through the years.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: I have drifted.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: Into materialism and workism and achievement and success.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_00: Julie and I are high school sweethearts.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_00: We met in high school.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: We met in the youth group.
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_00: We got married very young.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: I went into a business career when the desktop computer, personal computer was a new thing.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: And had some really interesting experiences over those 20 years.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: And Julie and I began building a family of two daughters.
• 33:08
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, and those girls now are in their late 30s.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And, you know, they're my best friends.
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know,
• 33:18
  SPEAKER_00: I often see,
• 33:19
  SPEAKER_00: you probably heard me say,
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: if I didn't have them as daughters, I'd want them as friends.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And they married great men and they're my best friends and we have grandchildren.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: And so, you know, the life looking at it from this perspective has been rich and full.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: 20 years into a business career, I,
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_00: what used to really float my boat, um,
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: I've always just became disillusioned with secular business and the things that go
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_00: on there.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: I began to really admire and look at my pastor and our district superintendent,
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: certain missionaries that would come and talk.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: And I'd say, these are the people I want to emulate.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_00: And so I don't know where I read it, but I stole the line.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_00: I realized I was climbing the corporate ladder and it was leaning against the wrong wall.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I began looking for work in vocational Christian work and ministry
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_00: and ended up,
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Gail Beebe was the dean of the School of Theology at the Pacific University.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_00: And I was talking to him about what I wanted.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_00: And he says, well, I'll give you a job.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: And I shot back in a cavalier way, well, you can't afford me.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: And he didn't miss a beat.
• 34:52
  SPEAKER_00: He goes, oh, well, the money's your problem.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: You figure that out.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_00: I'll give you a job.
• 34:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I just thought, wow, that is right.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_01: He is so right.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: ended up working there,
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: ended up working at the School of Theology,
• 35:10
  SPEAKER_00: enrolled in the seminary, um,
• 35:14
  SPEAKER_00: Got a job offer to be the executive pastor in a church
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_00: that we had planted 10 years prior.
• 35:20
  SPEAKER_00: We'd been on the planting team.
• 35:23
  SPEAKER_00: So a pastoral career began to evolve.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: And then that led quickly to a regional denominational role as the CFO
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_00: for Evangelical Friendship Southwest and did that.
• 35:43
  SPEAKER_00: For a while and got a chance to travel, got a chance to go do world mission.
• 35:48
  SPEAKER_00: And for me,
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's where I really thrived and enjoyed,
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_00: you know, all the cross-cultural things that we were talking about earlier.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_00: And so now being, you know, I'll be 67 in a couple of weeks.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I,
• 36:13
  SPEAKER_00: Been married to my high school sweetheart for 45 years.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: And that has been the
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: most thrilling and challenging thing I've ever done is
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_00: to maintain a harmonious marriage.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: Raising kids was easy.
• 36:35
  SPEAKER_00: It's been ordering my life in such a way
• 36:43
  SPEAKER_00: That I'm not just,
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: using my wife to fulfill my needs and desires and, you know, strategic plan.
• 36:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I, you know, I have to admit that there's been a lot of that.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: There's been a lot of how do I,
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_00: you know, how do I satisfy my goals and appetites and all of that.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_00: And Fortunately or unfortunately, I mean,
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: it's been the bane of my existence,
• 37:17
  SPEAKER_00: but God knew that I needed a five foot four that could stand toe to toe with me
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: and slug it out any day of the week, you know?
• 37:26
  SPEAKER_00: And, uh, and so he, he provided an opportunity for me to be broken, uh, on her.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: And, um,
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: you and I have both heard it preached that, um,
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: We need to experience brokenness in order to really develop a faith and a dependency
• 37:45
  SPEAKER_00: on God.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: Because when I've got everything together, I don't need God.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: But when I'm broken and saying, okay, Lord,
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: I need you,
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: and you feel that in your gut like an ache, then the Lord says, well, good, good.
• 38:03
  SPEAKER_00: I think we can work on some things.
• 38:07
  SPEAKER_00: Now we can do business.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_00: I've learned that.
• 38:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 38:13
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thank you for the broad strokes of your entire life.
• 38:17
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's not the first time that you've given that sales pitch.
• 38:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's a well-oiled machine, which is great.
• 38:27
  SPEAKER_01: I think so much of the time when you're in the transition phase
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_01: of figuring things out,
• 38:34
  SPEAKER_01: so much of it is like,
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_01: how do I get things under control rather than like No, no, no.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_01: How do you seek God first and have that relationship and conversation?
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_01: And the other dimension to that is like you're also in that relationship
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: with your spouse or your significant other
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: and you're making those decisions together.
• 38:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's so cool to see how God works even in those conversations with God.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: With our spouses where it is like, Hey, like we're, we're a team.
• 39:04
  SPEAKER_01: We have to figure this out together.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_01: There's going to be compromise.
• 39:06
  SPEAKER_01: There's going to be challenge,
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: but, uh, yeah, like who are, who are we letting lead this venture?
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and, it is an adventure.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I was just talking with a buddy of mine, uh, Josh,
• 39:18
  SPEAKER_01: who was on this,
• 39:20
  SPEAKER_01: the last conversation that we recorded and he has such an infectious joy
• 39:25
  SPEAKER_01: about How life is an adventure.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: And, uh,
• 39:29
  SPEAKER_01: that might be because he's an Aussie, but it,
• 39:31
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's also because,
• 39:33
  SPEAKER_01: uh, he's a, just a, he's in such deep relationship with Jesus too.
• 39:38
  SPEAKER_01: And, and, um,
• 39:39
  SPEAKER_01: it's so infectious to see like someone that's completely surrendered to,
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_01: yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 39:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like this is the,
• 39:47
  SPEAKER_01: this is the icing on top and, uh,
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_01: the pot at the,
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_01: the end of the rainbow,
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: so to speak, like the, the, Journey is the adventure part that is the point.
• 39:59
  SPEAKER_01: It's how do we get our dependence on God and prioritize our lives in such a way
• 40:06
  SPEAKER_01: that he is in the middle of that rather than like,
• 40:09
  SPEAKER_01: well, I got to get to the goal of whatever this opportunity is.
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_01: That opportunity might just be the adventure that is the point of it.
• 40:18
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think it's always important for me to hear that.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: I could continue to talk to you for many,
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_01: many, many hours and I'm excited to continue doing that when the timing's right.
• 40:31
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm just so grateful for your friendship and your generosity with your time
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_01: and hearing your heart and experience.