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What Most Businesses Get Wrong About Sales with David Lusk · Better Together

• Meesam curingbusy: Hi everyone and welcome back to the Better Together podcast. I'm Kelly Sunsvold co-hosting with my partner in business and in life, Sean Sunsvold. Today's guest is David Lusk, managing partner of Evergreen Sales Group and a sales development expert with over 30 years of experience. After a post-COVID corporate shakeup, David didn't just pivot, he built something new. In 2021, he launched Evergreen to provide small and mid-sized businesses with sales leadership without the cost of a full-time hire. His fractional model helps companies scale, improve sales conversations, and grow with less friction. David is also a strong advocate for aligning sales and marketing, knowing real growth happens when they both work together. His story is one of reinvention, resilience, and building smarter from the ground up. So thank you, David, for being here. Appreciate the time. you, Callie and Sean. Pleasure to be here. Looking forward to our discussion. For sure. I really enjoyed our intro call that we had together. So let's, let's start from the beginning. When you launched Evergreen Sales Group in 2021, it was after corporate reorganization, which feels very familiar, probably to a lot of our listeners. It feels very familiar to us as well. As we've talked about, what was going through your mind at the time and what gave you the push to start something on your own? That's a great question. So I'd been in the corporate. space for about 15 years, but I started life as an entrepreneur, did my first startup right out of college. Like every corporate executive, I think I did spend some time looking for my next role in corporate America and was always the bridesmaid. And it became clear to me after a slip up from an HR professional that I had aged out of corporate America, if you will, which was fine. But I really wanted to bring all of this experience. And all of this knowledge that I felt like I had and offer that out into the business community, but at a price point that they can afford. If you've ever done corporate training, it tends to be quite expensive. Like sales training, for example, is going to cost you $5,000 ahead. And it's good. I've seen the results of that, but I find that a lot of small business owners and mid-sized businesses really struggle with the budget in that space. So I thought, well, as an individual, if I'm not carrying all this overhead, And I've got this psychopedic knowledge of stuff going back 25 years, maybe they could use it. They could rent it from me. ⁓ It's interesting, you know, like when you, when you leave corporate America, right? And you, you've got all this experience. It, shapes you as a person, right? Because you've been through what corporate teaches you. And then you step back and you realize there are things I want to do differently. in my business, right? So how did those past experiences shape the way you approach fractional leadership and how you built your business? ⁓ well, one, I just wanted to be kind of candid and honest with people and not spend too much time posturing. have to, obviously as a business, you have to position your offering into a marketplace solution, but there's a, there's some unknown, not secrets, but unknown concepts, if you will, within my specialty that the customer is just better off knowing, I think, at the end of the day may not get you the sale, but it definitely just kind of lays the groundwork for, you know, trust. And so, you know, one of the things that is that was the trust side of it that you build with the client. Was there anything else along the way that kind of you brought along with you or wanted to change from your previous experience? Yeah. Just really investing. in my customers and wanting them to succeed. That's been my orientation, even though I was in corporate for a bit, but really taking ownership and responsibility for their outcomes and their outputs, which you don't always get to do inside an organization. You're typically, you know, building a project and moving on. I also like kind of the personal connection that you get because you're close to somebody's ⁓ source of life, if you will. competing their families. You really kind of build into what they're all about. And you're just looking for a little bit more personal accountability to their company and for yourself. So, but yeah, and I wanted to build a very welcoming and ethical company. know everybody probably says that, but a lot of times I just like to have a conversation with people and if I can help them, great. I'll tell them that if I can't, I'll work to actually find somebody that can or make the recommendations. So I really believe in going that extra mile. Jack Welch years ago said something that's always stuck with me he's like, I want you to pack as much value into every dollar as you possibly can. And so I really have kind of lived that. And I think in the small business space, one of the things that I've learned over the years is that just ridiculously busy, you know, they got so much stuff. have so much stuff coming out. We get overwhelmed. And if we could just have somebody. Just give us a hand, even if it's outside, you know, that expertise, just please give me a hand and tell me what I need to do. I was, had a conversation just a little while ago. A founder up in New York was talking about just dumped all this stuff random. I mean, just all over the place about, you know, product and money and all this kind of stuff. And she's like, what do do? She just wanted somebody to make that decision for her. She could just be relieved of that burden and move on. It can be so overwhelming. Like we've talked many, many times. I you and I talked about it. Like Sean and I have had many conversations. Like as a founder, small business owner, you wear so many hats and you have to be an expert in every area. And with your experience, you get, you know, like a company could potentially hire you for, you know, even the value of just a fractional, maybe 10 hours a week or whatever, whatever you and the company work out. that expertise that you bring along, you know, the, ⁓ you've already established yourself. You already know what that is. If you bring in a new person, you know, who is just straight out of college that doesn't have the experience that you have, you're, you're paying as a business. You're also paying for them to be learning those experiences that you already have. That's right. That's right. One of the, one of the taglines that, you know, I kind of help ⁓ frame up or help clients conceptualize it's like, why buy when you can rent? So a good well-street source is going to cost you around $200,000 a year. So again, we go back to a business that's making a couple of million dollars. You're talking about a significant line budget for somebody that's not the owner, right? So the idea is for about a sixth of the cost, you can lease me for a period every week to... provide the advice to build the process, to create the training, offer the coaching. So my business is really kind of bifurcated. So on one hand, I'm working with owners that need help building out a sales team and they want a sales leader just to run it for them. Take this team so I can focus on the manufacturing or the product spec or the software that we're developing. The other side of the house is really coaching. So working with either a leader, but more often than not the sales reps or the sales teams. to develop their selling skills so their abilities will increase, which will help grow the business. That's a labor intensive business and it's very hard if you're busy running the business to go in and help your sales team. I'm a bit of a player coach in that way, right? So I can know what I'm looking for and how to build that so I can isolate in those skills. But yeah, absolutely. Very hard. for sure. A lot of founders that we've talked to, we've heard Listen to a lot of podcasts as well. We hear a lot about kind of that identity loss that happens after corporate roles. Did you have a moment of now what? how did you, yeah, I mean, I can imagine and like the mental shift. ⁓ what, talk through that a little bit. What did, what did it go from employee to entrepreneur? Like, what was that shift you kind of had to have in your brain? Yeah, I think, well, you're dealing with the struggle a lot of times if nobody values you and what you bring to the table, what you have. So there's a lot of doubt around that. There's a lot of that feeling of just kind of, I've wasted my whole life, you know, building something, you know, that is of value only to find it unappreciated. And there's a lot of loneliness and, a lot of, think every person has this. Men in particular tend to struggle with it more as this whole identity. My work is my identity. And so... I spent a lot of time kind of digging down into what is my identity and what is this really all about? And just kind of allowed a path to unfold about the way I was going to go. I actually fell into this business in starting this business. My original intent was to buy a business, which I'm kind of back on that track again. But I was trying to figure out what to do and was going to purchase a business. And I was talking to a colleague and former client of mine, and he was explaining. what he did and I'm like, I didn't even know that existed. And so I just decided, well, that's low overhead. I'm really good at that. So I'll just go into that. Yeah. Nice. Yeah. It's, it's a big mind shift as well as an entrepreneur. Corporate business, larger businesses do not operate the same way that smaller businesses do. So the big adjustment has been around the isolation, the loneliness, the lack of resources, you know, the lack of It's great that you guys team up and help each other out because as a solo person out in the field, you're just like, it's just you. And it's hard to get into a safe environment where you can really kind of share your burden. Like, Hey, this is really, you know, I'm really struggling here. So it's a big identity thing. It's a whole mind shift. So definitely, like I said, this is my third, third company to start. So it's a different starting it at this age than when I was in my twenties and forties, but it's still a lot of fun. Yeah, yeah, for sure. So let's, let's talk about that a little bit because you you mentioned you're, know, you're not necessarily the spring chicken, right? And you said this isn't your first business, right? So what lessons from earlier businesses that you've done, did you bring along to starting this business that helped you maybe make it happen a little faster than it would have before? I've always had the philosophy of just take care of your customers and just really just focus on taking care of your customers and to build it. And I think that's a pretty common theme, you know, through most people. In terms of getting ramped up faster, I think I just kind of knew and was ready for some of the adjustments that might have thrown me off had I not been in this space before. You don't get to go into an office. It's all completely dependent upon you to get. out of bed, get off your keister and get to work. And you know, you can't avoid it. You're your own boss. You're also, you know, your boss is really wicked, you know, and demands a lot from you. So you're just constantly writing yourself and arguing with yourself. But I think understanding that, understanding that the work just has to get done no matter what, because if it's meant to be, it's up to me kind of thing. Yeah. And a lot of people help, you know, or will offer to help, but they don't really deliver on, you know, on what they say they are, particularly family. I'm just putting that out there for your audience, know, present company excluded. Yeah, yeah. I mean, I often joke, like, I mean, when we first started this business, it was all me until year three, until Sean started, and I always joke, I'm like, you're my best hire. You know, so kind of, so we're, I've been marketing in my profession, Sean's been primarily sales and operations. So we kind of have. both ends of this sales and marketing kind of, I don't know, banter, you know? Like there's this whole, yeah, you know, there's this whole like sales and wife is in marketing. Yes, okay, so another couple always have this conversation, which is more important. Exactly, and like what we find too is that there's a really, there's a misalignment a lot with companies, especially in the small, medium business side of things where marketing, people think it means sales. And then sales, you know, when they think about sales, they're, actually talking about marketing. There's an educational piece that we have to do to really kind of protect our business, but also align the client to make sure they're getting what they're expecting as well. What's a misconception that you see kind like out in your field and how do you coach clients through it? I would really love to learn. Yeah. So I actually had a robust discussion with a. person on Facebook around this whole thing and talking about AI and the interjection. And I said, you know, look, sales and marketing for me, ⁓ and the way I understand it, it's not two separate functions. It's a continuum. It's an emphasis, however, on different aspects. So where you might see marketing as more of a mass or general in the sales is more individualistic, you know, making, making the connection with the individual buyer. That's the reason the KPIs are different. And that's the reason why the function is oftentimes separated because each has its own gifts and talents that are required to create a good flow. So I am very, very good at sales. I am very, very weak in marketing, you know, and so I would like to outsource a lot of that kind of work ⁓ because it's just, there's there's a specialty around creating tight messaging and understanding. the marketplace, understanding where your customers are kind of hanging out, understanding how advertising is supposed to create a connection point, you know, with the business and all of this kind of stuff. I know as a salesperson, I'm like, just, put me in front of a client and I'll sell them. But marketing's done a lot of hard work, you know, to bring that person in. And a salesperson is doing a lot of work to build relationships out there in the marketplace. So my wife and I have this conversation all the time. She's got this great big marketing brain, you know, does big marketing work and I'm like, but you got a sales problem, you know? And she's like, no, we don't, we have a marketing problem. And I'm like, no, you really just have a sales problem. You need to fire yourself people and get new ones in there. she's like, yeah. It's kind of like there's a subtle handoff that happens there, almost like maybe marketing will start the conversation, kind of get them a little bit warmed up and then a handoff to sales. And that's where the close happened. really like, it's a passing of baton. that they really compliment each other really well if you have a good team that's working together and a business that understands the different functions of each department. But yeah, it's a good, yeah, it's a good pass. Well, I'm not going to let you, so the conversation piece and all of that yourself, people need to be able to have that kind of conversation. So actually, it's the whole Bud Light commercial, which is more valuable, the offense or the defense, which is smarter. So I typically say it's the salesperson because they've got to kind of pick up that general reserve difficult customer. don't really, you know, you know, they want something, but you got to figure out what it is. You've got to do it so you don't take them off, you know, and all of that. It's a, to me, it's, kind of just a fluid. And I think what people get really bothered by is when people drop out of. that funnel or drop out of that process, however you want to kind of tend to describe it, which I say it's not really necessarily a bad thing. That's marketing is doing its job because the role of the marketing is to bring qualified buyers into the organization to have a discussion with. The job of that salesperson is to take all the capabilities of that business and align them perfectly to the outcome that the customer is looking for. So you're having to do a lot of mental gymnastics and identify and nuance and romance the stone a little bit to get it lined up so the customer can understand what you can do for them. But to me, it's all just one process, right? One of the questions I have a lot of times with clients around the marketing piece, I think you asked earlier, was do you know how much it's costing you to get a qualified lead to talk to your salesperson? Because a lot of times my conversations with clients will start like, Hey, we need leads. And I'm like, okay, well, you know, we can definitely do that, but you know, only four to 6 % of your total marketplace is in market in any one time. know, so, and you've got 10 competitors that are all looking for them. So we want to have conversations with those people, not the other 95 % that are out there just, you know, they need you, but just not yet. So I think people. miss that, that idea a little bit. think, you know, they need to get people in and talking to salespeople and salespeople get frustrated because they're just talking to people that aren't ready. They don't have the money. don't, I'm just doing investigation for my boss, you blah, blah, blah. We're thinking about this. I'm putting it, and it becomes frustrating for sales and they blame marketing for, you know, not bringing it in. Marketing a lot of times is they're spending the money, but they don't actually know, nor does the chief revenue officer actually know. how much that is costing per qualified lead. Yeah. Yeah. All that data is super important, whether it's lead acquisition cost, whether you know what the actual customer acquisition costs, because to go from a lead to a customer, there's some extra steps in there, an extra time that's necessary, right? And in the small business world, it's very often that the business owner, right, or founder is the one wearing the marketing hat. They're also wearing the sales hat. They're wearing the finance hat. They're wearing the sales manager hat. Right. They're wearing all these different hats, right? They're having to learn how to manage themselves and manage their processes. So how is it that when you come into a business, how do you get business owners, founders, leaders to kind of take off that sales management hat and how do you shift their mindset to show them and lead them towards growth? ⁓ that's a great question. In fact, I just had this discussion this morning in a group. So the, for one, you should always seek a third. knowledgeable third party periodically, either weekly, monthly, whatever, that can step back and look at your business for a whole, as a whole and say, okay, this is what's happening and start inquiring about that business. Because, you know, people rarely sit down like this young lady did and define their process. This is my business model. This is my process. This is how our customer is going to come into this. This is the conversation. This is how I'm going to distribute to fulfill that need. You know, so Business owners typically don't get to work on their business. They're working in the business all of the time. And so they're missing these things. So systems, processes, technology stacks get very crowded because they're quick band-aiding solutions. And the next thing you know, 14 months down the road, you've got this cluster of stuff that doesn't really make sense. So some of the questions that I like to ask is, you know, what are you really good at? You know, What is your value contribution to the business? What is your plan for growing the business? I hate to use the word scale all the time, but that's, know, how are you going to grow this business? Because if it's completely dependent upon you, you're going to max out real quick, which is this lady had done. know? So you need to start thinking about how do you decompress or lighten the load of your own stuff and delegate, which is the big issue that business owners have because they're making that personal commitment to you that I'm going to fulfill your need and they can't trust other people. They've been burned before, and this is just a fact of life. Not everybody is good at everything. Not everybody's you. ⁓ Getting them to step back and ⁓ inquire into what's going on inside them, what's in your heart right now. You're just working yourself to death. Is this really what you signed up for? getting them to think about the business and the lifestyle that they want. Cause that's a lot of times why, you know, owners are in this thing because they enjoy what they do, but also, you know, they want to have a certain lifestyle. for sure. I'm curious, you kind of mentioned talking to, you know, obviously this is what you do for a living. You talk to a lot of different people besides the delegation aspect of it. You know, what are some of the other big sales mistakes that you see small businesses making today? And how can they fix them? God, there's a couple of them that come to mind. So one is as you build out your business, you will typically make a couple of mistakes on you'll take your best producer and make them your sales manager. So let's say you got like three or four salespeople. take your best producer and you say, okay, I want you to teach all everybody else on the team how to do it. Well, that's stupid because you know, management is a completely different skillset than sales producers. every outstanding salesperson that I've worked out. mean, the guy that goes in there and blows it 150 out is rarely, rarely a good manager. In fact, they're actually pretty pathetic because it's like, just do what I do, or I don't know what I do, I just go and do it, you know? And you can't duplicate, which is why the systems that we teach are behavioral based for that exact reason. If you do these behaviors, these are the outcomes you're going to get. The other thing they do with salespeople Besides taking that, they'll hire an outstanding producer. So say you've got three salespeople and they're all kind of doing okay. You're trying to get to the next level. So as an owner, you say, I'm going to go out and I'm going to hire Sean because Sean is going to kick on this thing and he's going to get me to the next level. So Sean comes in, he does that. He does exactly that. He goes out and sells a million dollars worth of stuff. Not only does he clog up your operations because you haven't really worked your process out very well, but Sean has created this tremendous amount of ⁓ top heaviness that is you're now dependent on Sean, you know, to fulfill this. So Sean goes away, you know, your business is going to crash because you're going to go from, you know, a $2.5 million organization down to, 1.2 and you, you've built out resources and stuff to handle that. So you're too dependent on a single contributor. Yeah. Yeah, for sure. I love that you mentioned the idea of like, you know, take, just take your top producer and make them a manager. Right. Like, and you mentioned that the skillset is completely different, right? Like usually salespeople, for lack of a better word, sometimes we, we, like to kill what we eat. Right. Like we're very excited about the fact that we closed a deal. We get the money, we get to go do something. Right. A sales manager has to look at things completely differently, right? They have to look at how do I cultivate a team culture? How do I improve everybody across the board, not just my top performer? How do I take what my top performer is doing and the way that they're saying something? How do I then disseminate that to my team to help them be able to learn and do some of the same behaviors that's not native or that may not be native to them? There's so many more things that they have to think about. And they've got to be incredibly patient because if you've ever managed salespeople, it's literally hurt. hurting cats or it's a kindergarten class. You you just wouldn't believe the kind of issues that come in, you know, in these private conversations. You get into, you know, the divorces and the kid can't get into school, you know, and you're just like, as a sales producer, you're like, I don't have time for this. You know, this is, this is draining my energy. I just want to go out. We need to go talk, be talking to customers, not, but as a manager, you're listening to that and you're incorporating that because your objective is to lift the bar for lift the tide for the whole team. know, and so this is an inhibitor to you producing that I'm going to help you because I know if you're engaged in what we're doing, if you're engaged with the team, you're going to produce more. One of the things I'm, I, that there's a lot of people that go back and forth, right? On when is, when you're a small business, when is the right time to hire a sales manager, you know, and go from having just the senior leader, the owner, founder of the company. you know, managing your sales team or managing the sales team, right? To hiring somebody to then manage the sales team and give the owner that chance to take that sales management hat off and focus more on the business. Is there a magic number of where it makes sense with the number of sales representatives you have? Yeah, of course there is. Typically it kind of depends. So a rule of thumb or a guideline, if you're an owner producer, I say when you're starting to produce about 70 to 80 % of the total revenue. of the organization. you might have some other people that are out consultants or salespeople, but you're the primary producer. When you hit that level, now you want to think about ⁓ bringing in ⁓ somebody to help you build that out so that you can be free. Typically, if you've got probably more than three salespeople, so you're a manager that's producing and you've got three... ⁓ additional resources out there, it might be time for you to start thinking about, particularly, and this is where the fractional model comes in, obviously, you know, getting somebody part-time that's specialized that can help each one of those individual salespeople grows because what you're paying for is the leadership quotient of that. it understands how to do that and build more complex organizations. You know, you're not just kind of winging it all the time. So as an owner, you can still go out and sell, but that leader can kind of build the capabilities up of that team, which will replace the income that you've been bringing in and it'll lighten your load. So I usually say around three to five, you know, depending on how you're set, because a lot of eat what you kill models, like in consulting, you know, that becomes very self-evident very quickly because you'll have these, you know, big spikes. You'll sell a big deal, deliver it over three, four months, you know, and be chopped up, eat up that way. So that's typically what I. And just kind of think about, again, what are you really good at? I had a client, he was actually good at selling. He just didn't like it. He was a whiz at technology. know, he was a systems implementation guy and that's really where he added value. So he really needed the sales person. I had an advertising agent, a client a while back, and we just built that. It was just him and he had some people producing content, but we just built a sales team for him, a commission only sales team. You know, just kind of depends on your business model and what you're good at. Some people love to sell, you know, they eat myth, right? They go out and they're just great at this and they just. Yeah, it's, know, finding your lane that brings you both joy, allows you to provide for your family, yourself, whatever your situation can be. It's like the optimal thing. If you can do what you love and make money at it. And so one of the things kind of shifting a little bit, one of the things we have in common. is kind of start up kind of in this COVID, post-COVID landscape. What's one piece of advice you'd give someone who's starting over or launching something new kind of in this time period? Kind of post-COVID, post-remote work, and kind of, you know, all of that. So what's one piece of advice about starting a business now? Yeah. So here's the deal. ⁓ Most, 60 % of my clients, one of the biggest problems that they struggle with is they don't know what they're selling. or they don't know who they're selling it to. Ooh, yeah. can see that. you know, I'll take, you know, my, one of my technology guys, you know, great product, great service. He was selling features. What he needed to be selling was an outcome of business productivity and profit and that sort of thing. So it was, he was mispositioning his, his message out in the marketplace. So he was trying to talk about, do all of this kind of stuff. The who you sell to, this is kind of interesting. So it's this whole marketing notion, the ICP and all these beautiful three-letter acronyms that describe the same thing, which is who wants to buy your stuff? And ⁓ the problem with that is people have different opinions about that. And so you're going to spend some time as you're starting a business, really trying to lock in to who is buying your customers. For example, I'm the CRO of a startup organization and her plan was I'm going to go out, I'm going to get this money and bring it in and then we're just going to go sell it. I'm like, yeah, but what are you selling and who are you selling it to? So she didn't know. So we had to do all this experimentation around these different markets. And that's what new business owners a lot of times fail to understand or they're not prepared for is You're going to have to shift and pivot within where you think your product or your service belongs. Cause you just don't know until you start building some critical mass where you start seeing regular purchasing behavior coming through. you know, she thought it was going to be the university. Well, universities, you know, they weren't interested. She thought it was going to be the individual consumer. Right. There's some of that there, but you're working to make any money and you're going to have margin erosion and all this kind of stuff. ⁓ before you start your business. really spend some time doing the strategic marketing that you learned about in college and really figure out what you're selling, who you're selling it to, why they're buying, and what do they get? What do they get as an outcome or a benefit from the purchase? And if you can start answering those questions, then you can start, you'll find whatever you're selling will go a lot better. Yeah, that's such good insight. Just kind of looking at and wrapping up a little bit, you know, we titled our podcast Better Together because Kelly and I figured out we could build something better together than doing things separately in our own business. Is there a ⁓ person or something that has helped you do that along your own journey? There have been tons of folks. So I've got different people. So I wouldn't say one individual necessarily has really spoken to all of that, but I do maintain lots of networks in people. I would highly recommend that, you know, a peer or an advisory board, very, you know, networked well, a referral service, you know, these kinds of organizations get involved down in niches because you really do need other people. It's a total myth that you could go out and do a business on your own and just, you don't need anybody else. You need, you know, anything from real estate investing to running a business. You need teams of people that have deep expertise. This world, business today is infinitely more complex and complicated and intricate than it was even 25 years ago. There's just a lot going on. There's a lot of regulation. There's a lot of misinformation, particularly around the AI world and what it is and what it's not and how to regulate it. So you just really need people that have that expertise that can pour into it. I do have one guy that I do, I meet with regularly and we just... do life together, we just kind of share life. Wicked smart, know, went to Duke and just a big brainiac kind of guy. So I always value his insights, you know, around that kind of thing. So, ⁓ and I can be honest and candid. So I think that that's the other thing. You need somebody outside your business that has no, that will never be a business partner, that will never be a customer. And then just can look at you and say, you're off track here, you're wrong. Because... You know, when you own your own business or running your own business, it's you. So much of you is invested in that and so much your background stuff gets poured in into that and interferes with that. I think that self-awareness piece is so huge, right? Like, and I think you mentioned it best there, your ability to be honest with somebody else besides yourself, because we, as the business owners, right, we're emotionally invested in what we're doing. And so we can get. really blinded really quickly on whatever's happening and just think it'll be fine. Right. But the reality of it is that we need that person to pull us aside and go, you know, hey David, hey Sean, like, Kelly, like this is not good. Right. We need that as, as business leaders. So thank you. And I'm, you know, I love that idea of like just having those people around you that can, that can really be honest with you and, know, and, and know that you'll, you know, your friendship, relationship, whatever will survive beyond it. Yeah. I two of my businesses, I've built a board and charged them specifically, you know, and I treat them to dinner or whatever, you know, but their objective was to pour into in a very critical, ⁓ candid way about the business and why we made certain decisions. so out of that has become, has come a lot of insight and knowledge. Like sometimes the board will tell you, you can take that money, you know, just realize that that's not the kind of money that you need to be taking. In other words, do that business. It's unprofitable. You're going to lose money, but it'll keep you afloat for six months or three months or something until you can get a more lucrative contract or something. yeah, people helping people, Yeah. For sure. We're all about that too. So how can people find you and Evergreen, your company? What's the best way? We work on a referral basis only. I know, right? Very exclusive to those people who need sales. The website is always good. So it's evergreensales.group. The name of the company is Evergreen Sales Group. So it's evergreensales.group. Love it. They can email. I love it. It's custom. Very good. Evergreensales.group. Love it. We always got to try new things. Or just email me. Frankly, it's ⁓ drlusk at evergreensales.group. So D-R-L-U-S-K. or call. I'm easy enough to find LinkedIn if you want to find out more about what we want to do. easy. Love to have conversations. I give a lot of free consulting away, much to my wife's chagrin. So it's okay. Call me. It's relationship building, I feel. There's, you know. Well, I just love helping people really is kind of, you know. I know you do. I know you do. was like, you can just really tell. But thank you so much for being on this podcast. And if you're listening and you're trouble with your sales process, retail to David. He clearly knows what he's doing and has the backing and the resume to kind of prove that. So thank you so much, David. Thank you guys. And thank you for having your podcast. I appreciate it. It's good to have a positive.