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ICE Kills Renee Good: Can Minnesota Charge? + Trump’s White-Grievance Politics · The Oath and The Office

• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to another episode of The Oath and the Office
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: featuring Professor Corey Bretschneider. I am John Fugelsang. Professor Bretschneider
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: is Evil Henchman, and I am so honored to welcome
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: the star of our show. You know him and love
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: him from the poly Side apartment at Brown University. Perhaps
• 0:26
  Speaker 1: you were lucky enough to buy a copy of The
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: Oath and the Office, A Guide to the Constitution for
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Future Presidents. Professor Corey Bretschneider, it's been quite a week.
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: It's great to see you.
• 0:36
  Speaker 2: Thanks, John.
• 0:37
  Speaker 3: I mean, wow, just when you think maybe we've got
• 0:40
  Speaker 3: one story, which is the fact that the president is
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: engaging in an imperial colonial quest to take over a
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: Latin American country, that would be the story. You know,
• 0:50
  Speaker 3: things just shift so continually, and unfortunately there is a
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: theme of this self coup, the takeover by the President
• 0:57
  Speaker 3: of the other branches that both has to do the
• 1:00
  Speaker 3: war powers abroad and then also domestically the violation of
• 1:04
  Speaker 3: civil liberties.
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: So we've got a huge amount to talk about this week.
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: I think you're talking about the ancient history of America's
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: illegal invasion and subsequent occupation of Venezuela to loot them
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: for their natural resources, and oil companies are terrified of
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: having Iraq all over again, so no one wants to
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: invest after Trump bought it and broke it for the
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: rest of us. But that's eight days ago, Corey, that's
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: really old history. When we last taped an episode, we
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: had no idea that events in Minneapolis would draw the
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: attention of the world away from the attention to Venezuela.
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: And can I just say, if you're a young person
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: who feels like you missed out on some of the
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: authoritarian leaders of America's recent past. In one week, Corey,
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: we got war for oil and Kent State. Of course,
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: the murder by an ICE agent of Renee Nicole Good.
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: We know that ICE has a bigger budget than the
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: militaries of most countries on Earth, and yet, Professor, they're
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: also petrified of unarmed women sitting in their cars with
• 2:03
  Speaker 1: the windows down. Now, there's a lot to unpack about this,
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: and we'll be talking about it for a very long time,
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: and there's going to be repercussions for this story for many,
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: many years to come. But I just want to begin
• 2:14
  Speaker 1: by saying to you, Professor, the amount of lies that
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump and Christy Noan and JD. Vance have already
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: told about the shooting death of Renanicle Good before any
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: investigation happens. The amount of demonstrable falsehoods they've put forth
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: guarantees that this tragedy is going to be recorded by
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: historians as a government cover up of the murder of
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: a US citizen. And I just wanted to ask you,
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: how has your response been, Professor, for the past week
• 2:45
  Speaker 1: watching these sad events unfold.
• 2:47
  Speaker 2: Well, just terrific.
• 2:48
  Speaker 3: Of course, I've seen the video and the multiple angles
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: and what looks to me like certainly at least some
• 2:54
  Speaker 3: of the shots were fired from the side of the car.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: The response from police to asking, you know, pointing out
• 3:00
  Speaker 3: that this was in no way a skilled stop or interrogation,
• 3:04
  Speaker 3: The fact that he was in front of the car
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: at all, that's one of the first things that evidently
• 3:09
  Speaker 3: police learn is not to step in the in the
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: in the path of the vehicle. And then the fact
• 3:13
  Speaker 3: that she was you know, her last words seemed to
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: have been to say to him that, you know, words
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: of compassion, and she wasn't angry with him, and that
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: you know, clearly she was trying to drive away from
• 3:24
  Speaker 3: the situation. And there's reports, of course that she was
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: given multiple instructions, and although she was told to stop
• 3:31
  Speaker 3: and get out, she was also told to leave.
• 3:33
  Speaker 2: And so you know, in that moment, it's clear certainly
• 3:36
  Speaker 2: that she wasn't.
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: Trying, to my mind, to murder him or run him over,
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: and experts have verified this wasn't any kind of ramming.
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: But to go to your point, the fact that in
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: the midst of all this horror, and there's a lot
• 3:50
  Speaker 3: to be said about it, that the President of the
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: United States and Christine nom just attacked this protester that
• 3:58
  Speaker 3: you know, Christy Noam talking about her in the first
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: seconds as domestic terrorists without any evidence.
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: And what I'd add to that is, not only will
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: it go down in.
• 4:06
  Speaker 3: History, but one of the topics that we've talked about,
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: but I think we need to talk about more, is
• 4:12
  Speaker 3: the idea of fascism, and fascism isn't just an.
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: Ideology or a set of ideas.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: It's a set of tactics that are really against reason,
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: against truth, and all about demonizing the opposition. So when
• 4:25
  Speaker 3: you see that instinctual reaction from the president from Christy
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: Nome to attacking their enemy. That is the tactic of fascism.
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: That's part of what's going on. And why if you
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: try to view it through the lens of democracy, of
• 4:39
  Speaker 3: reasons of truth, none of it makes any sense because
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: they are just looking at politics in a complete or
• 4:46
  Speaker 3: in foreign way. And yes, it is a fascistic set
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: of techniques that they're using.
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: You know you are so right, professor. The President took
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: the truth social right away to to talk about the
• 4:56
  Speaker 1: ICE officer who was viciously run over, and he wasn't.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: He was jogging back and forth like had just finished
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: acrossfit workout. This guy was fine. The President lied and
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: said he was in the hospital. The President said that
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: the deceased was an agitator, probably a paid agitator. She
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: was not normal, and not normal means I guess you
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: deserve a bullet to the face. Christy Nome called her
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: a terrorist, domestic terrorist. Before any investigation. Of course, we
• 5:24
  Speaker 1: know that ICE would not let medical personnel on hand
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: treat this woman and she was allowed to die in
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: her vehicle. Christy Nooam declared the agent was blameless before
• 5:34
  Speaker 1: there was any investigation whatsoever. And then JD. Vance shows
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: up to run for president and pretty much implies that
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: she was funded by some shadow network and said that
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: the agent was protected by something called absolute immunity. He
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: was just doing his job. Corey, Am I right that
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: that sentence should terrify every American because if ICE agents
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: have absolute immunity, doesn't that mean they can never be
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: prosecuted for any crimes they commit on the job? Not
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: excessive force, non murder. I mean, it's state violence with
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: no consequence, is what they're talking about.
• 6:07
  Speaker 3: That's right, And you know, let me just say it
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: plain this day. Although the Vice president attended Yale Law
• 6:12
  Speaker 3: School and evidently was given a degree from them, he
• 6:15
  Speaker 3: is either completely misinformed about the state of immunity for
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: ICE agents or outright lying.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: And I tend to think he's lying.
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: And you know, again it's this tactic of I mean,
• 6:27
  Speaker 3: especially what's supernicious about this is from somebody with a
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: law degree who's claiming to, you know, from this position
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: of authority, to tell us what the law is and
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: as somebody who knows better, you know, I am telling
• 6:39
  Speaker 3: you in the most straight.
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: Up way that is simply false.
• 6:43
  Speaker 3: And so he's either lying or he's really you know,
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: negligent in the lack of ability.
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  Speaker 2: ICE officers do not have absolute.
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: Immunity, meaning let me just say what that means, because
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: it's a phrase you hear a lot, meaning that they
• 6:56
  Speaker 3: cannot be indicted for crimes.
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: So they don't have absolute criminal immunity.
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: They do have some qualified immunity in civil cases, and
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: there are some limits to the defenses and the kind
• 7:08
  Speaker 3: of prosecutions that you can bring against them, but there
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: is not there's what's sometimes called qualified or some degree
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: of immunity. But the idea that an ICE agent could
• 7:19
  Speaker 3: go out on the street and just murder somebody you know,
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: and say they're doing their that is false. And we'll
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: talk about the ways to overcome the protections, but to
• 7:29
  Speaker 3: skip to it, I certainly think local prosecutors have the ability,
• 7:33
  Speaker 3: not only can, but should bring charges here after an
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: investigation if it shows what we think it does, which
• 7:39
  Speaker 3: is that this is not just an unjustified killing, but
• 7:42
  Speaker 3: a crime.
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: I want to remind everyone to remember that back when
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: jd Vance was confronted with his outright racist lie about
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: Haitian immigrants eating dogs in Springfield because Jdvance is a
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: racist liar, his response was last year it's totally fine
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: to lie about something as long as it gets the
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: media talking about it. That's the philosophy, and that philosophy
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: has a body count now. But Corey, what's interesting to
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: me is when they released the agent's video footage, which
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: the agent shot with his cell phone holding it up
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: until he had a gun in the other hand, and
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: you can see that this man was humiliated by this woman,
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: a m Good's partner. And then, of course after he
• 8:21
  Speaker 1: fires three shots into the head of this unarmed woman
• 8:23
  Speaker 1: who was trying to drive away. If she wanted to
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: run him over, she would have run him over. She
• 8:29
  Speaker 1: was turning to the right to get away. Here's what's
• 8:32
  Speaker 1: fascinating to me. You hear him on tape why they
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: released this, Cory, I have no idea say effing bitch
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: about the woman he just killed, the woman whose child
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: he just made an orphan. You hear him say, after
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: he's humiliated by a woman, you can tell he's angry.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: He's not scared. He's acting out of rage and swearing
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: an epithet at women. Right, So we find out yesterday
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: the Dresses Department, Sybil Rights Office is refusing to investigate
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: this killing. And to me, it's kind of a huge
• 9:02
  Speaker 1: deal because that's the specialized unit responsible for investigating and
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: prosecuting law enforcement misconduct, including excessive force. And wouldn't saying
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: effing bitch after murdering a woman kind of make it
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: seem like it could have been a hate crime, could
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: have been a bias incident. He wasn't scared for his life.
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: He was mad at a lady, and he expressed.
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  Speaker 2: It exactly, John.
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  Speaker 3: And when you hear that, and I did hear that
• 9:26
  Speaker 3: on the video, and you contrast it also with her
• 9:29
  Speaker 3: basically telling him that, you know, she wasn't angry with him,
• 9:33
  Speaker 3: the sort of act of forgiveness in the middle of
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: protest and trying to make it clear that you know,
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: this has nothing to do with him as an individual.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: She's protesting Ice that's in the policies of the Trump
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: administration and trying to protect her neighbors. And then he
• 9:47
  Speaker 3: with this, really, you know, viciously unprofessional is an most
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: extreme understatement, with this vicious response showing his well, bigotry,
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: his misogyny, you know, that really shows you what up against.
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: And it isn't just about that one utterance. It's of
• 10:03
  Speaker 3: course about the fact that Ice are horribly untrained. That
• 10:07
  Speaker 3: in the massive build up of this organization and the
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: desperation to create a military force for Donald Trump's will,
• 10:16
  Speaker 3: you know, the idea that there's professional training, the kind
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: of restraint, crowd control, any of the things that a
• 10:21
  Speaker 3: normal police force would do, you're not getting from these people.
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: These are you know, they're not police.
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: In the sense of, you know, the highly trained individuals
• 10:30
  Speaker 3: that exist on many police forces. Now, not to say
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: that police forces don't have their own problems.
• 10:35
  Speaker 2: But not like this.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: And you know, there are reports, for instance, that ICE
• 10:39
  Speaker 3: agents have been even failing the minimal licensing or not licensing,
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: but minimal qualification tasks that were usually required because they're
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: just trying to staff up, and that's what you're seeing here.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: You know, this particular agent was on the force in
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: a longer way, but you know, it's as if and
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: I'd love to see research of documenting this, but my
• 11:01
  Speaker 3: sense is that you know, many of the people who
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: might have gravitated towards the Proud Boys, as there are
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: massive recruitments going on for ICE, that this is attractive
• 11:10
  Speaker 3: for white supremacists, for misogynists because you're seeing an act
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: of this kind of bigotry and you know, violence, and
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: who's going to be attracted to that. It's people who
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: really don't have democratic.
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: Ideas in their heart.
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: And you know that's why, to continue with my theme,
• 11:28
  Speaker 3: you know, one of the real there was a real
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: argument about whether or not Donald Trump was a fascist.
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: I believed his ideology, his statements is anti not just
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: constitutional but antipathy to the rule of law, made him
• 11:40
  Speaker 3: one from the get go. From when we met in
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: twenty sixteen, I wrote my piece Trump versus the Constitution.
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: But one of the big counter arguments to people like
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: me was, well, you know, where are the storm troopers,
• 11:51
  Speaker 3: where are the troops on the ground, you know, using
• 11:54
  Speaker 3: violence domestically. And now we have an answer to that,
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: you know, if it wasn't clear, and Trump point, oh,
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: it's clear now, and it's eyes and to something received too.
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've always thought his movement was fascist. But
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: you have to believe in something to be a fascist,
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: and he just believes in me, me, me, I want this, this, this, this,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: and this that's mine. Give it to me now, which
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: I don't think qualifies him as fascist. But he makes
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: a great hood ornament for a fascist car If you
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying, and with all these officials, with Nome,
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: with Vance, with Trump, their essential argument, Professor, since the
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: death has been it's been this, it's really tragic that
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: she's dead, but she was also a terrorist, so it's
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: really good she's dead. That is the line they're trying
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: to walk, and it's not going to work. So Minnesota
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: and Illinois have this week filed federal lawsuits challenging the
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: administration's deployment of thousands of these ICE and DHS officers.
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: They're alleging constitutional violations of state sovereignty, the Tenth Amendment,
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: unconstitutionally excessive force, and political retaliation, which is actually quite fascinating.
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Illinois asked the judge to block Customs and Border Protection
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: from conducting civil immigration enforcement on the state without congressional authorization.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: The Minnesota lawsuit asks a judge to block the FEDS
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: from implementing the unprecedented surge in Minnesota. What do you think, Corey,
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: what are the strongest constitutional foundations for these state lawsuits.
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: We're looking for people to fight back, and in this
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: case it's state attorneys general before it's judges or Democrats.
• 13:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and you know, we've been highlighting the role of
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: state's attorney's general. Since we began the podcast, and one
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: of our very early guests I urge people to go
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: back and listen to him, was Raul Torres, the new
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: Mexico Attorney General. And what you're seeing in these lawsuits
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: are exactly what you know. If I had to pick
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: one of the main ways that we can fight back,
• 13:46
  Speaker 3: it's through putting pressure on our public officials to say
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: that in our system, and this is what the lawsuits say.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: Delving into what you reference the Tenth Amendment, it's not
• 13:55
  Speaker 3: that we have one national federal government, and there's a
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: reason for that. The framers, thankfully of the Constitution realized
• 14:03
  Speaker 3: that consolidated power was dangerous, specifically to civil liberties, and
• 14:07
  Speaker 3: that if you just had all powerful federal government, and worse,
• 14:11
  Speaker 3: an all powerful president that the head of that federal government, they.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Could just squash civil liberties at will.
• 14:16
  Speaker 3: So among the protections, this is even before the Bill
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: of Rights, in the structure of the Constitution, is the
• 14:22
  Speaker 3: idea of dual sovereignty, that there are some powers granted
• 14:26
  Speaker 3: to the federal government.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: And this is what the Tenth Amendment says in plain English.
• 14:30
  Speaker 3: Those powers not given to the federal government are reserved
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: to the states and to local government. And so what's
• 14:36
  Speaker 3: going on here to break down these lawsuits is they're saying,
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: if ever there was an example of the use of
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: the federal government to violate state sovereignty, it's states that
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: are charged. One of the main powers they're charged with
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: are the police powers, which includes the obligation to provide
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: for the public safety. That's not the rule of the
• 14:54
  Speaker 3: federal government. And that is far from them.
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: By the way.
• 14:57
  Speaker 3: The excuse that somehow they're coming in and the absence
• 15:00
  Speaker 3: of public safety protections, or that they're engaged just in
• 15:03
  Speaker 3: limited immigration removal of undocumented people.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: That's false.
• 15:09
  Speaker 3: You know, they are creating chaos, they are undermining the
• 15:12
  Speaker 3: public safety. So the Tenth Amendment case here is so strong,
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: and shout out to the framers. You know, many many
• 15:18
  Speaker 3: problems with many of them, but one thing they really
• 15:21
  Speaker 3: got right was that worry about oppress of federal government
• 15:25
  Speaker 3: that would use something like a federal force to come
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: in and oppress local government.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: And the very I can't emphasize this enough.
• 15:34
  Speaker 3: It's actually the if either big one foundational structure dual
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: sovereignty is it and that's what these lawsuits are about.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: They're also about, by the way, the idea that.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: The federal government acts, it can't act in an arbitrary way,
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: and yet that's exactly what's going on here, and you know,
• 15:50
  Speaker 3: it's beyond arbitrary when the President says, you know, he
• 15:52
  Speaker 3: thought that he said this in a recent interview, that
• 15:55
  Speaker 3: the victim here was, you know, acting in a disrespectful
• 15:58
  Speaker 3: way buys.
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: Anything that's going on.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: So you know, that was a little bit of a
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: wonky law professor kind of discussion. But you know, if
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: you want to know where your rights come from, the
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: Tenth Amendment is up there, maybe more important in many
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: ways than the Bill of Rights. So these attorneys general
• 16:15
  Speaker 3: are leading the way. They're doing exactly what needs to
• 16:18
  Speaker 3: be done. By the way, it worked, at least temporarily,
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: and that's when we were talking about the military and
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: the federal use of the military. Part of the argument
• 16:26
  Speaker 3: was about state sovereignty, and you know, those arguments prevailed
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: in the end, the federal government didn't have the ability
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: to deploy troops at will, at least in the California
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: case for instance. And so you know, I think that
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: strategy is very powerful the ability of states to defend
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: themselves in this way in court is a real possibility here,
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: So there's some hope.
• 16:47
  Speaker 1: It does seem like the Supreme courts weighing in. What
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: about the federal supremacy claus doctrine? I mean, would that
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: complicate a state's ability to bring any kind of civil
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: charges against federal agents who are murdering people if they're
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: acting under almighty fis authority.
• 17:01
  Speaker 2: I don't think that will work.
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: They will say that, and there is an idea that
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: federal law reigns supreme over state law, but that's subject.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: To a lot of caveats.
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: We're going into my first year constitutional law class, which
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: you know, I teach it in law schools. I'm going
• 17:16
  Speaker 3: to teach it at Brown the next semester. It's a
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: good time for it. But what the supremacy clause actually
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: says when you break it down is, look, if there
• 17:24
  Speaker 3: is a specific, authorized, constitutional federal law, then that does
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: take precedence over some specific state law. But here's the
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: question with the Tenth Amendment, where at the foundational level,
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: are there laws that authorize ice to come in and
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: shut down protesters.
• 17:40
  Speaker 2: No, of course not. It's lawless action.
• 17:42
  Speaker 3: And so in the absence of any justified law like that,
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: or any justified power, which there is not a police
• 17:49
  Speaker 3: power of the federal government, the state sovereignty idea the
• 17:53
  Speaker 3: Tenth Amendment takes over.
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: And so they'll.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: Try to say that there's authorization in law, that there's
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: a supremacy clause, but I don't think that's going to work.
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: My favorite take so far comes from Congressman Wesley Hunt
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: of Texas, who you may have seen on newsmaxs sharing
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: his curiously evil opinions this Congressman Corey. He said that
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: citizens have to obey ice or risk death. I quote.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: The bottom line is this, when a federal officer gives
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: you instructions, you abide by them, and then you get
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: to keep your life. That's it freedom, he explained, authoritarianism. Right, Yeah,
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: freedom's optional. Survival's optional. But Corey, obviously, any any party
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: that thinks that survival is something the state grants you
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: has no business calling itself an American. If just obey
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: and you don't get killed were the law, we wouldn't
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: need laws or trials or courts. But here's what gets me,
• 18:46
  Speaker 1: and I want to ask you about this. This whole
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: thing as you know, happened about four blocks away from
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: where a different law enforcement officer murdered private citizen George
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: Floyd in the great City of Minneapolis, about four blosway.
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: And it's kind of the same exact playlist we saw already.
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: I mean, defaming the murdered person, you know, and telling
• 19:09
  Speaker 1: people don't believe the footage you actually saw with your
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: own eyes. And again, different agency, same arrogance, same lie,
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: smear the dead, blame the victim, daddy government knows best.
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: But this is Minnesota where we saw for the first
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: time ever a chief of police testify against one of
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: his own cops in the Derek Chovan case. Minnesota put
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: Derek Chouvan away, and you get the feeling Donald Trump
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: wouldn't mind pardoning him, but he's not allowed to. So
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: here's my question for all of this. I mean, under
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: the current Supreme Court president, let's say that Pam Bondi
• 19:44
  Speaker 1: says this guy has full immunity whatever blah blah blah.
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: Could local prosecutors or a state attorney general like Keith
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: Ellison still successfully bring charges against a federal agent like
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: an ice officer who you know, murdered people. I mean,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: what legal hurdles would exist in that case for a
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: state charge.
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: I just say in the most blunt way absolutely that
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: what follows from the sort of abstract discussion that we're
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: having about the tenth Amendment is that local government is
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: charged with enforcing laws like murder.
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: And that means that.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Even if somebody who you know is a federal officer
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: engages in murder, it's not just the power and right
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: of a local prosecutor to bring murder charges.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: They are obligated to do so.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: They are the people under the constitution that are charged
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: with protecting the public safety. Now the federal government wanted
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: to intervene here and police their own, fine, but.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: That's not what's happening.
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: And part of the idea, by the way, federal versus
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: state authorities, that there are checks and balances. The local
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: government has the ability to check in some instances, including
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: this one federal authority, and that means bringing charges. I
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: have a colleague who teaches criminal law, John Faff, somebody
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: who I know well, great colleague, and he has a
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: piece and slate that really he goes through. This is
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: a you know, true expert in this kind of area.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: I recommend that that people will put a link up
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: to it. But what he's essentially saying is, yes, there
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: are hurdles, and there are things, of course the federal
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: government and Trump and BONDI might try to do to
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: get it out of the hands of local prosecutors.
• 21:15
  Speaker 2: But in the end, it's common sense that murder, you know.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: Is a local crime that can be prosecuted by a
• 21:21
  Speaker 3: local prosecutor. And from what I understand, there is in
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: Minnesota an investigation that's ongoing that might result in a
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: criminal charge. It's so important to do it, not just
• 21:31
  Speaker 3: for the principle of giving the victim justice here, but
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: in deterring ice, which seems to believe and they're being encouraged,
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: of course by the Vice President and the President that
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: they have some sort of double O seven license to kill,
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: and they don't.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: And so now how are they going to get that message?
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: How are we going to undo from their brains the
• 21:50
  Speaker 3: idea that they are these secret agents with mass on
• 21:53
  Speaker 3: that can kill people. And certainly the people like this
• 21:57
  Speaker 3: Congressman are just stoking that what, as you said, not
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: democratic but almost like the quintessential authoritarian belief.
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: We've got to have pushback.
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: And now these lawsuits are partly doing it trying to
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: get ice added there, but it also I think even
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: if they succeed, we need to see this prosecution, assuming
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: that the investigation reveals what common sense seems to suggest
• 22:19
  Speaker 3: happened here.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: I think you're exactly right. Let me ask one more
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: question about this, and then we'll get to the FED
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: being burned down. Minnesota's complaint and this is here's my
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: dumb question, Professor. Minnesota's whole complain is about how the
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: government surge was retaliatory. How significant is it constitutionally to
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: frame it that way, To frame the federal enforcement as
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: being just politically motivated rather than pursuing some neutral law
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: enforcement objective. I mean, it seems like the right way to.
• 22:45
  Speaker 2: Package this well.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: I think that is obviously what's going on, and it
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: raises a number of issues. We haven't talked at all
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: about the First Amendment and when the Oregon protests broke
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: out during Trump's first term, then military was deployed.
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: One thing I wasn't seeing from a.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: Lot of analysts was there was a lot of discussion,
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: for instance, about if he invoked the Insurrection Act, whether
• 23:05
  Speaker 3: or not that might overcome the constitutional problems by the way,
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: you know, in the military case that we're dealing with now,
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: that also is a question whether the Insurrection Act can
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: be successfully invoked, and he hasn't done it yet, but
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: he might. But even if they invoke the Insurrection Act
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: or no matter what the argument, including the arguments here,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: we still have a First Amendment. We have a right
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: to free speech, We have a right to protest. Despite
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: what the President said that he was somehow that the
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: victim was being disrespectful, his good was being disrespectful by
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: telling this officer, you know, kind words and at the
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: same time protesting his actions. The First Amendment guarantees that
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: right to protest. And if the idea, the basis of
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: the policy is to shut down protests, it's not just
• 23:47
  Speaker 3: arbitrary and capricious, which is a limit on government action,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: cannot have that characteristic. It's a shutdown of the First
• 23:55
  Speaker 3: Amendment as well. So all these arguments, you know, work
• 23:58
  Speaker 3: together in constitutional law, the Tenth Amendment, the First Amendment,
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: because our constitution, thankfully, and this is why I'm a fan,
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: was designed to protect the individual against an authoritarian state.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: And I love that this happened. The day after January sixth,
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: while they're canonizing Ashley Babbitt. So the message we're getting
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: is if you're taking part in a violent terrorist attack
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: to overthrow our election at the US Capitol and you're
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: beating cops and a cop shoots you to protect others,
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: that's murder. But not wanting to let a mass government
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: thug into your car means you deserve to be murdered.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Now I have to ask you about what's going on.
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: With the fat I just saw something in there or
• 24:37
  Speaker 3: does I saw Christynoam ask about that on cnnah and
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: her word salad response. I guess it's no surprise you
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: got word salad. You know she had no means.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: The argument is this, those cops of January six should
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: have just opened fire on all violent protesters or protesters
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: they thought might be violent if they turn their wheels
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: the wrong way.
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: So anyway, let's say got a pardon's.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Let's bring it to Putin's wet dream. Their own. Powell
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: Federal Reserve Chair, just did something unthinkable in Trump's administration.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: He told the truth. He put out this remarkable video
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: everyone needs to see where he talked about how Trump
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: has been pushing him to lower interest rates to hide
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: the effects of the tariffs because Trump is losing the
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: war on math. They've already tried to censor the Bureau
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: of Labor Statistics numbers, so we don't know you can't
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: rely on any unemployment figures until three months later now
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: when those figures get revised. They're desperately trying to hide
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: the reality of Trump's economy from the rest of US
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: and their own Powell said, I'm not gonna lower interest
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: rates because this guy's threatening me with criminal prosecution. It
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: could trigger hyperinflation, it could destroy the economy. We've talked
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: about this. Trump wants Powell gone. He doesn't seem to
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: realize it's a board that votes on all these things,
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: not just one guy. But he wants a new guy,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: and he wants the Fed to be an ATM for
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: billionaires and a slot machine for dictators. We've discussed, Professor,
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the Federal Reserve is supposed to be insulated from political pressure,
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: not explicitly in the Constitution. But why has judicial and
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: institutional independence been treated as so important to American governance.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: It seems like the sort of thing we would take
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: for granted our whole lives until it was finally threatened.
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and I should say, you know, we've been talking
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: since we launched the podcast about the fact that Trump
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: has a multifaceted goal to go after the independence of
• 26:20
  Speaker 3: the FED. And we've seen his attacks on the Federal
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: Trade Commission and its independence as sort of a precursor
• 26:27
  Speaker 3: to this. But what I don't think any of us
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: had on our bingo card when we started, you know,
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: almost a year ago, is the idea that there would
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: be a prosecution here and that they would use the
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: power to not just go after his enemies, but to
• 26:41
  Speaker 3: go after you know, somebody's just doing his job. So
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: to take a step back to answer your question, the
• 26:47
  Speaker 3: Federal Reserve is created by legislation that gives the chair
• 26:51
  Speaker 3: person of the Federal Reserve independence in a specific form.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: You can't fire that.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: Person for political reasons or for any reasons not subject
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: to four cause firing. They don't serve at the pleasure
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: of the president. They're protected unless they're doing a really
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: bad job, unless they're fired for cause.
• 27:10
  Speaker 2: So Trump, of course.
• 27:11
  Speaker 3: As an authoritarian, sees that and can't stand it. I'm
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: sure he's asking his lawyers all the time, let's just
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: fire him, that's it, and they say no, you can't
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: do that. Not just the Constitution upholds this structure, but
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: the legislation that even creates the FED.
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: The reason it exists.
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: It's embedded with an idea of institutional independence, and.
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: The reason for that is to protect our economy and
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: to protect.
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Citizens that there are toul worries. There's a dual mandate
• 27:36
  Speaker 3: of the Federal Reserve. It fights inflation on the one hand,
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: and it also fights unemployment. That's its purpose, and Jerome Powell,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: doing his job, is trying to balance those two things.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: One thing that he doesn't have on his agenda is
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: making Donald Trump rich and making decisions that are going
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: to juice the economy in a short term way. As
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: you said, that helps Trump and his billionaire friends. So
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: when he gets this pressure, he says, you know, I'm independent.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: That's the way the law protects me. So what is
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Trump going to do rather than try to win in court?
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: And by the way, the way things are cashing out
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: is although a lot of independent agencies will disappear, the
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: court has really indicated that when it comes to the
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: Federal Reserve, it's going to protect it.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: It's not going to go that far.
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: So you've got to find a way, and.
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: Here it is the prosecution said ahead.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: By the way, Wall Street and the oligarchs and probably
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: most of the Republican Senate will defend it as well.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: I mean, man, Baby's just going too far here and
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: again he keeps insulting Powell, calling him dumb. Trump hired him,
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: Trump appointed Powell, right, and so you appoint the guy
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: and now criminally investigating him. It's like firing your own
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: doctor for diagnosing you correctly. But when when federal power
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: is used like this to investigate a public official, and
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: again it's all bs. The alleged crime is the building
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: renovation for the new building for the like, like like
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: Jerome Powell is the ocean eleven of drywall, you know, like, oh,
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: it's the home depot conspiracy at the Fed. It's all
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: a lie. But when the federal power is used to
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: investigate a public official for acting on his economic judgment,
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: not any criminal behavior, that's not legally defensible, right, that's
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: a clear constitutional abuse.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: I mean it's funny, you know, when you talk about
• 29:21
  Speaker 3: the drywall, it's like it's so obvious that there's a
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: political attack and a political investigation and attempt at political
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: prosecution that the facts are like.
• 29:31
  Speaker 2: What, you know, what is it that he's going after?
• 29:33
  Speaker 3: And right, he's going after a supposed fraud of this
• 29:36
  Speaker 3: FED building. And I saw a kind of amazing exchange
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: on camera between Drum Powell and Trump where Trump was
• 29:43
  Speaker 3: trying to accuse.
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: Him of mismanagement. You know, I guess eventually.
• 29:46
  Speaker 3: Fraud and Powell had the receipts. This guy is a careful,
• 29:51
  Speaker 3: educated Berdson who is ready with.
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: That video is brilliant and everyone should watch the video.
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: That video of watching him just you know, with their
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: construction hats on like I'm watching this project there's no
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: fraud and showing the details of what Trump claimed was
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: fraud and why it wasn't now, you know, but Trump
• 30:08
  Speaker 3: doesn't care, you know, and neither, I should say, does
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: Pambondi in this horrific Justice Department. I mean, when it
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: comes down to, you know, certainly disbarment of Pambondi.
• 30:17
  Speaker 2: This is exhibit A.
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: You can't go after political opponents for no reason. Now
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: they've done that, of course in the James case, in
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: the Komi case, but you know, here it seems like
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: a different level because he's not a political opponent in
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: the way that the others, you know, might be seen
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: that way. He's just somebody doing his job, and here
• 30:35
  Speaker 3: you go, he's going to be subject to a criminal probe.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean Trump attacking Powell for being independent. It's
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: it's literally like attacking the referee for not letting you win.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: That's what we're missing here. And you got Bernanki and
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: green Span and Yellen, like the FED chair avengers are
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: uniting against this, not to.
• 30:53
  Speaker 2: Mention FED chairs around the world.
• 30:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, let's we talked about checks, you know, and we
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: haven't really talked about the market as a check because
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: Trump is trying to you know, he sees the stock
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: market as the way that he's graded, and so he's
• 31:04
  Speaker 3: always trying to juice it. But here, you know, part
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: of the point of the FED is to ensure that
• 31:10
  Speaker 3: citizens' welfare is protected in the sense of fighting unemployment
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: and inflation. But markets also look to the independence of
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: a FED and kind of trust it. And so as
• 31:20
  Speaker 3: he starts to meddle with it, the idea that Donald
• 31:23
  Speaker 3: Trump is going to be in charge of the world's
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: largest economy.
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: All right, we have to take a break. This has
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: been a very long first act. But don't worry when
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: we come back. Wow, Donald Trump says the racist part
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: out loud again. Corey, every time they take the mask off,
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: there's a hood underneath. It turns out that Civil Rights
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: Act and Voting Rights Act were really, really hard on
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: white people. Don't go anywhere. We'll be right back with
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: the Oath of the Office. I'm John Fiegelsak, Hey, Al.
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: Plan Kershner here, So friends, I hope you'll join me
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: on my audio podcast, Justice Matters.
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: You care about.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: Ethics and government, criminal justice reform, a conflict free federal judiciary.
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: I thought so.
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: On Justice Matters, we take on issues involving the need
• 32:14
  Speaker 4: to reform our government and its institutions, and we talk
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: about real, achievable reform. I hope you'll join us. Look
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: for Justice Matters wherever you usually get your podcasts.
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: Welcome back to the Oath in the Office. I'm John Fiegel,
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: sang along with Professor Corey Bretschneider and Professor This week,
• 32:36
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump said the quiet part so loud. It echoes
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: back to nineteen fifty seven. According to the reality show
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: performer Who's the President of the United States, the civil
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: rights movement that modest attempt to stop lynching and segregation
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: and legal humiliation. The civil rights movement, Corey was really
• 32:55
  Speaker 1: hard on white people. It turns out the real victims
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: of Jim Crow were the people doing Jim Crow. And
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Trump is saying that white people were very badly treated,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: which is incredible because, as you know, professor, the Civil
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Rights Act, it didn't hurt white people. It just stopped
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: them from treating other people like garbage. And to a racist,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: that feels like persecution. Right. This is white supremacy in
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: its most pathetic form. Once I couldn't discriminate anymore, I
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: was discriminated against. And we saw this with marriage equality.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: We saw where they were saying, if you let gay
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: tax bank citizens marry who they love in a free country,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: it leads to the breakdown of the family system. Like again,
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: you getting what I've got means I lose something. To Trump,
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: equality isn't justice. To Trump and people like him, equality
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: is theft because when you're used to being handed everything,
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: fairness feels like robbery. So let me ask some really
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: dumb questions we shouldn't have to ask in this century.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: But how does constitutional egal protection under the fourteenth Amendment
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: actually work in practice? They have this expression they use
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: reverse discrimination the stupidest express Does it reverse discrimination mean
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: be nice to people? I think that's what reverse discrimination means.
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's discrimination these idiots. But how does that
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: square with the notion of reverse discrimination and these recent
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: presidential remarks with the equal protection of the fourteenth.
• 34:20
  Speaker 3: I can't help but go wonky, professor in the setup
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: to this, because that's.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Why I'm asking this wonky question.
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: I will say too, you know, citing my mom as
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: I often do, there are no dumb questions, and this
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: is definitely I mean, if I had this single out,
• 34:33
  Speaker 3: one of the smartest, definitely not dumb question, it's.
• 34:36
  Speaker 2: The one that you're asking right here.
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's one that all Americans have to ask.
• 34:41
  Speaker 3: You know, the Constitution is obviously fundamentally important, and after
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: the Civil War, if I had to pick two words
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: that are the most important the whole thing, it's equal
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: protection that idea and trim in the fourteenth Amendment as
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: a way of reversing not just slavery, but the subordination
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: that came with it.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Now, you know, that wasn't enough.
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: We needed legislation in the twentieth century, and the civil
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: rights movement resulted. During the Johnson administration at the behase
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: of not just Martin Luther King Junior, but you know,
• 35:12
  Speaker 3: generations who had fought throughout the twentieth century to make
• 35:15
  Speaker 3: that equal protection clause real in the nineteen sixty four
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: Civil Rights Act. It's as important really as the Constitution itself.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: And then i'd add to the nineteen sixty five Voting
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: Rights Act. And what you have in Trump in this
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: interview is just repudiation of all of those gains and
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: the suggestion that really white supremacy is the thing that
• 35:37
  Speaker 3: audit govern America. What it does is it rips the
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: band aid off the debate that you're referencing. In polite
• 35:44
  Speaker 3: constitutional circles, there has long been a debate about the
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: meaning of equal protection and the meaning of discrimination under
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act. Is it color
• 35:53
  Speaker 3: conscious in the sense that it's fighting subordination the way
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: I view it, or as my conservative opponents often put it,
• 35:59
  Speaker 3: is it color blind? And they cite Justice Harlan's dissent
• 36:02
  Speaker 3: in the Plus versus Ferguson case from the late, very
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: late nineteenth century, which used this word colorblind. Harlan, you
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: know this is a big debate. You know, use that phrase.
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: That's not what he meant, but at least, you know,
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: that's their argument that the Constitution in the nineteen sixty
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: four Civil Rights Actor colorblind, so they banned, for instance,
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: affirmative action, and the Supreme Court has certainly been moving
• 36:24
  Speaker 3: in that direction.
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: But here's the thing about this interview.
• 36:26
  Speaker 3: You know, long conservatives have been accused you're saying colorblind,
• 36:30
  Speaker 3: but really you're hiding a kind of white supremacy.
• 36:32
  Speaker 2: Well, Trump just said, yeah, that's what I believe in.
• 36:37
  Speaker 2: I don't believe in civil rights.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: He's not trying to give you an interpretation of the
• 36:40
  Speaker 3: Equal Protection Clause.
• 36:41
  Speaker 2: I don't think he knows what that. I'm sure he
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: doesn't know what that.
• 36:43
  Speaker 3: Is, or the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Actor, which
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: maybe's vaguely aware of. He just disregards them all and says,
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: you know, really it's about white rights. That's what we
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: should be concerned with. And that's what this interview with
• 36:54
  Speaker 3: The New York Times said. I was glad CNN didn't
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: cut me off today, but I spoke to them about
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: the Supreme Court, and that's what I said, that he
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: really has come out as a white supremacist. So I'm
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: hoping mainstream media, not just our independent podcast, is covering
• 37:07
  Speaker 3: it that way, because that's the story that this debate
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: about the meaning of these clauses. It has just been
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: ended by a president who embraces white supremacy.
• 37:16
  Speaker 2: He doesn't like any of them.
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: They cut me off the other day, by the way
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: on the way, Oh yeah, oh yeah, they do that
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: as happened sometimes.
• 37:22
  Speaker 3: I've been watching it, John, There have been some great
• 37:24
  Speaker 3: performances there.
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: You know what, I didn't do cable news for so long,
• 37:28
  Speaker 1: and now I had a book and I came back
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: out of the crypt to start doing them again. And huh,
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: already you don't get to have as much time. You
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: don't get it as much time with with MAGA people
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: as I do. But Corey, what is.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: The guy you debate on CNN sometimes?
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: Scott I got Scott Scott Scott Jennings.
• 37:44
  Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, he seems to be reduced by several inches
• 37:48
  Speaker 3: after any time he encounters you.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Man, that stuff.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: I wish I could tell you. I will say that guy.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: That guy's always been very polite to me. I'm always
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: very polite to him. He's running for Mitch McConnell's Sennes seat.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Every one of his beloe leaf is geared towards will
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: he get that power? That's his whole shtick. But let
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: me bring it back to this rhetoric of Trump and
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: the racism, because yeah, I mean, it's just it's crazy.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: And we've heard idiots on the internet say this, and
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: now idiots in the White House are saying I hate
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: to ask such a dumb question. This is the dumbest
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: question I will ever ask you. But I realized I
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: said this last night on the radio with you. What
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: are the dangers constitutionally, socially, morally, What are the dangers
• 38:25
  Speaker 1: of framing civil rights laws as somehow punitive towards a
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: majority group? This is what they do. Other people get
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: a quality, and it means we've had something to take
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: it from us. Why is that dangerous legally and socially.
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: Well, again, it's a profound question, not a stupid one
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: in the sense that what you know you're putting her
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: it feels unreal, I think, is what's happening because we've
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: so long had a debate about how to interpret these laws,
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: how to interpret this fundamental constitutional part of the constitution, which,
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: by the way, the thing that really makes it democratic
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: is it's aim of explicit equality. Frederick Douglass had said, Look,
• 39:03
  Speaker 3: those ideas are in the preamble, which says we the people,
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: not we the white people. But you know, it needed
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: to be made explicit, and it was so for a
• 39:14
  Speaker 3: long time. You know, I guess i'd call it polite
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: or mainstream debate, including what I thought of as extreme right.
• 39:20
  Speaker 3: Nobody challenged the fact that we need a nineteen.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Sixty four Civil Rights Act.
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: Actually, Ran Paul did once and you never heard him
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: mention it again.
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: It was so outrageous.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, and now he could unpack that for days.
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: But yeah, but he at least backed off because the
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: norms were so strong in favor of the fact that
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: we need these laws. And I don't want to poo
• 39:41
  Speaker 3: poo them either, in the sense that even in the
• 39:43
  Speaker 3: hands of conservatives like Justice Gorsuch, they were used, for instance,
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: the nineteen sixty four Civil Rights Act to protect transgender
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: rights in hiring in the Bostock case, So they have power.
• 39:55
  Speaker 3: But the shift, the seismic shift that you're sensing, is
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: when the President of the United States comes out for
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: white supremacy. That's really the opposite of trying to interpret
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: the laws it's trying to go back to. And well,
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: I'll say where it goes from the presidents and the people.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: In my book five leaders who threatened democracy and the
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: citizens who fought to defend it. That's Woodrow Wilson, you know,
• 40:15
  Speaker 3: Woodrow Wilson's idea of a white nationalist society, not just
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: white supremacist, but white nationalists.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: That's really what Trump is in the.
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: Tradition of Well Corey. Let's shift now to the most
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: important issue that affects all of our lives more than
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: anything we've discussed, and that is transgender children playing sports. Clearly,
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: this is where the nation's future lies, and the Supreme
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: Court is going to be debating two appeals dealing with
• 40:42
  Speaker 1: state bands on trans girls playing on women's teams. Now,
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: it's a delicate balance to talk about this subject because
• 40:50
  Speaker 1: we need to protect vulnerable, marginalized minorities. I'll also point
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: out that transgender girls are the only group that take
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: drugs to be physically weaker. But we have to balance
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: the care for marginalized groups with respect for the integrity
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: of girls' sports, with the fact that this issue is
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: what fascists use to smear the entire anti fascist movement.
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: Kamala Harris never talked in her entire campaign about transgender
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: kids playing sports, and it's all they think she talked about.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: So every time we actually wade into the arena and
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: preach compassion to a marginalized group within a marginalized group,
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: we have to be very aware that this is ground
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: zero for the disinformation campaign of the right. But the
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: case is coming forward, and I think even the plaintiffs
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: understand that this particular six' to Three Supreme court with
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: the dirty Six, conservatives is not exactly warm to transgender
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: rights in a society based on, equality, liberty and.
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: Freedom one thing that's really, interesting and Why i'm not
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: going to predict what's going to happen here because it's really,
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: unclear is that when it comes to transgender, rights.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: You would think it's a sixty three. Issue but we
• 42:06
  Speaker 2: have this one.
• 42:07
  Speaker 3: Case and this is WHAT i was actually foreshadowing and
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: alluding to before in our previous. Discussion you have this
• 42:13
  Speaker 3: one case that really perplexed people at the. TIME i
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: was surprised by. IT i teach, it it's not what
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: you would. Think and in The bostok, Case Justice, gorsuch
• 42:23
  Speaker 3: writing for The court took a strong stand in saying
• 42:26
  Speaker 3: the nineteen sixty Four Civil Rights act in its, text
• 42:30
  Speaker 3: and For, gorsuch you, know he's always looking for.
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: WAYS i posed his.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: Nomination wrote a number of pieces when he was nominated
• 42:37
  Speaker 3: In New York times and elsewhere talking about the fact
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: that when it comes to The, constitution he's going to
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: try to strip gay rights out of the.
• 42:45
  Speaker 2: Constitution NOW i still believe.
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: That but one thing he has to do in, response
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: because he says it's not written. In but he's got
• 42:53
  Speaker 3: a show, too his devotion to the text when things
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: are written.
• 42:56
  Speaker 2: In and one of the things that's unique about the nineteen.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: Sixty Four Civil Rights, act especially titled, six which protects
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: against discrimination in employment as opposed to the Equal Protection,
• 43:06
  Speaker 3: clause is it explicitly protects against what the statue calls
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: with the law calls sex. Discrimination now here's the surprising, Thing,
• 43:14
  Speaker 3: john What gorsa says in The bostok case is what
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: is transgender? Discrimination it is literally discrimination based on. Sex
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: and so he, says, yes the nineteen sixty Four Civil
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: Rights act prohibits job based discrimination against transgender.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: People and in this, case maybe he'll say a similar.
• 43:33
  Speaker 3: Thing they did more recently in the case a few
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: months ago uphold a ban on transgender medical care for,
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: minors so that cuts the other.
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: Way but there still is this case That i'm, like, Wow,
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: gorsa you, know has.
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: This he's sort of the most unlikely hero of transgender.
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: Rights and, actually WHEN i taught that case At Fordham Law,
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: school but also WHEN i teach it At, brown a
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: lot of transgender kids, activists and they're, like, wow this
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: is not WHAT i, thought and yet they want to
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: grab on to. It and you, know he's making a
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: common sense. Point is sex based discrimination discrimination? Apply does
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: it extend to discrimination against transgender? People is the protection
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: against it also one against anti?
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Transdiscrimination and the answer is. Yeah he says it plain his. Day,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: alito of course doesn't like.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: It who is a complete, Hack but at least you
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: know he had enough integrity to see.
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: That so well they say that here.
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: Too you know what's that issue is a different Provision title,
• 44:33
  Speaker 3: nine but also the Equal protection, clause and so he
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: might he might come. Around we'll, see that's the. Question
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: i've been. Argued by the time you're hearing.
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: This this is where we should remind everyone that The
• 44:44
  Speaker 1: American Medical association and The American Psychiatric association The American
• 44:49
  Speaker 1: society Of pediatrics all support gender affirming care for transgender,
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: kids and they all acknowledge that gender, dysphoria which not
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: all transgender people, have is a real. Thing it's hard
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: to guess which way this is going to. Go The
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: idaho law that came out Under Judge david ny five
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: years ago talked about a dearth of evidence in the
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: record to show excluding trans women from women's sports supports sex,
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: equality provides opportunities for, women increases access to college. Scholarships
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: but A Donald trump judge blocked that a year, later
• 45:19
  Speaker 1: saying it's. Unconstitutional it seems that this will be The
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: Supreme court deciding, maybe if not once and for, all
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: for the time, being until a new challenge pops.
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: Up, YEAH i, mean AND i you, know in some,
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: ways even this discussion should be, encouraging because nobody on
• 45:35
  Speaker 3: The court is, Saying, hey we shouldn't have an equal protection,
• 45:38
  Speaker 3: clause or we shouldn't have a nineteen sixty Four Civil Rights,
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: act or let's disregard. It that's What trump is essentially.
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: Saying they're, Saying, look these are monumental pieces of legislation
• 45:48
  Speaker 3: and in the nineteen sixty Four act or when it
• 45:50
  Speaker 3: comes To title, nine The Equal Protection, class and they're trying,
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: to you, know engage in a debate about how to interpret.
• 45:56
  Speaker 3: It that's normal constitutional. Law what scares me is that
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: that's all taking place in the backdrop of the court
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: allowing this full on white supremacists assault on civil. Rights
• 46:06
  Speaker 3: and you have a president who in a sense proclaimed
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: himself the white nationalist leader in.
• 46:11
  Speaker 1: The, exactly all, right we need to take another. Break
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: we'll be back in just a. Moment there's much more to.
• 46:17
  Speaker 5: Cover.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Corey how do you feel about Stealing? Greenland? Huh there against,
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: boy we don't have the money for healthcare, anymore but
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: we sure can bribe every person In greenland to steal.
• 46:29
  Speaker 2: There AND i Think i'm an no one on Attacking.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: Greenland that's oh they. Think they seem to think they
• 46:34
  Speaker 1: can buy it out from under. Them we'll be back
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: in just a. Moment this is the oath in the.
• 46:38
  Speaker 6: Office here's what you've been. Missing on The Stephanie Miller
• 46:44
  Speaker 6: Happy hour, podcast he, Said iran's looking at freedom perhaps
• 46:48
  Speaker 6: like never, before THE usa stands ready.
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: To, help meaning bomb.
• 46:51
  Speaker 6: Them The White house Confirmed trump is waying whether to Bomb.
• 46:55
  Speaker 6: Iran He's Carolin levitt said he certainly doesn't want to
• 46:58
  Speaker 6: see people being killed in the streets of r streets Of. Minneapolis,
• 47:01
  Speaker 6: fine but unfortunately that's something we're seeing right. NOW i
• 47:04
  Speaker 6: mean this is all. Accensory, yeah it is. Insane he's gonna.
• 47:08
  Speaker 5: He's gonna Bomb iran because they're killing protesters. Wealth you,
• 47:15
  Speaker 5: know who do we get to bomb to stop what's
• 47:18
  Speaker 5: going on in The United states right?
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Now this is the.
• 47:21
  Speaker 5: Difference he's, terrified all. Right, uh he's terrified of The
• 47:27
  Speaker 5: United states having a color.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: REVOLUTION i have people who.
• 47:30
  Speaker 5: Come on My twitter feed and they, go you're that
• 47:32
  Speaker 5: guy who's advocating a color. Revolution, yes a people power
• 47:35
  Speaker 5: revolution where we all rise up and through our. Numbers,
• 47:40
  Speaker 5: look we got to get some some organizers From france
• 47:43
  Speaker 5: Or South korea or. Something those guys know how to
• 47:46
  Speaker 5: do it. Good, yeah they will have a million people
• 47:50
  Speaker 5: in the. Streets but you know, what now it's starting to.
• 47:53
  Speaker 5: Move but we shouldn't have to have A boston.
• 47:55
  Speaker 6: Massacre we bombed the, well a KILLED i don't know eighty,
• 48:01
  Speaker 6: civilians kidnapped their, president and now the oil executives are, like, no,
• 48:05
  Speaker 6: thanks we don't want to steal the oil because it's
• 48:07
  Speaker 6: not even it's. Uninvestable and now he's, talking he's saber,
• 48:10
  Speaker 6: rattling of course About. Greenland every. Day we've Got germany
• 48:16
  Speaker 6: for those of us that have read any history, book
• 48:18
  Speaker 6: trying to help to Protect america the rest of the
• 48:22
  Speaker 6: world Against. AMERICANS i, mean In World war, three we're
• 48:25
  Speaker 6: going to be the bad. Guys subscribe to The Stephanie
• 48:28
  Speaker 6: Miller Happy hour podcast On Apple, Podcasts Stephanie miller dot,
• 48:31
  Speaker 6: com or wherever you get your favorite.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Podcasts welcome back to The oath in The. Office I'm
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: john feugelsanglog With Professor Corey. Breschneider let's talk About, greenland
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: known for a, reindeer being cold and not wanting to
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: be invaded by The United. States, corey this is once
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: again resource. Extraction this is the doctor and of. Discovery
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: this is what our indigenous friends tell us about all the.
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: Time it's the oldest story in the. Book how did OUR,
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: X y AND z get under their? Ground? Somehow our
• 49:08
  Speaker 1: oil is Under venezuela's ground and our natural minerals is
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: under the ground In. Greenland so this has been going
• 49:16
  Speaker 1: on for over a, year and our good Friend ted
• 49:18
  Speaker 1: lu The, congressman has publicly warned that ordering any military
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: action without congressional authorization like we just saw last week
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: In venezuela would be illegal and. UNCONSTITUTIONAL i guess that's
• 49:30
  Speaker 1: Why trump's being impeached right now for In. Venezuela But,
• 49:33
  Speaker 1: corey from a constitutional, standpoint how clear are the limits
• 49:37
  Speaker 1: on presidential authority THE us military force without congressional? Authorization
• 49:41
  Speaker 1: because it seems to be get away with whatever you
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: can get away. With The democrats aren't going to chase you.
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: Down, well you, know that's what we talked about in
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: depth last, week And i'll urge people if you want
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: to deep dive into all of this to listen to
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: our episode from last week on war. Powers but the
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: bottom line is, that, Yes congress is given the power
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: to initiate, war and the president as commander in chief
• 50:02
  Speaker 3: is or declare, war and the president's commander in chief
• 50:04
  Speaker 3: has the ability.
• 50:05
  Speaker 2: To carry it.
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: Out but the, reality as we talked about last, week
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: is If congress stays, quiet that authority is going to.
• 50:12
  Speaker 3: Disappear courts aren't going to, Intervene they're not going to
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: stop a presidential attack On. Greenland so really what has
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: to happen is That congress needs to step. Up it
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: has to assert and clear its throat and reclaim that.
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: Power one way to do it is to say there
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: is no authority to Attack. Greenland And Congressman lou who's
• 50:30
  Speaker 3: been on this. Podcast if you didn't hear, it go
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: back and listen to our discussion with him about this
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: issue about the war, powers about his bill to ban
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: a first strike use of nuclear, weapons which with this unhinged,
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: president is a very real, WORRY i. Think but you,
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: know what he's saying, is first of, all there is no.
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: Authority he's among the group In congress pushing and they
• 50:52
  Speaker 3: did have a procedural victory in The senate to get
• 50:54
  Speaker 3: a vote on war.
• 50:55
  Speaker 2: Powers and The PRESIDENT.
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: Jd vance are of course lying and to be saying,
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: that you, Know article two solves all of, this meaning
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: the president has complete authority as commander in, chief the
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: opposite of, what as we explained last, week The constitution.
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: Says so this is a, movement you, know in doing
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: what we were calling. For and you, KNOW i feel
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: great that somebody we've had an extensive. Conversation we'll Have
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: Congressman Lou back is taking a leadership. Role the other
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: thing That congressman lou said that was so important was
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: if you engage in planning an attack that's illegal On,
• 51:25
  Speaker 3: greenland you are violating the law because this isn't a
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: legal use of.
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: POWER i thought that was an amazing thing to be.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: Saying you, Know ia saw some wacky video that said
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: troops are allowed to decline illegal. Orders scoring everything comes
• 51:40
  Speaker 1: back To Mark, kelly AND i think.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: They attack that point.
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: Exactly but let me ask you, this in one situations
• 51:48
  Speaker 1: in history of courts Or congress reined in this kind
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: of an authorized military, action and how could that apply
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: to hypothetical actions like Stealing?
• 51:57
  Speaker 3: Greenland, well you, know on the. Court, unfortunately the answer
• 52:01
  Speaker 3: is almost. Never they really don't want to intervene in this.
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: Area they have this doctrine they called the political question.
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: Doctrine when it's come up with a couple of exceptions
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: Wondering vietnam and one actually that a friend of mine
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: who's a professor constitutional law professor was able to for
• 52:17
  Speaker 3: about twenty four, hours stopped The First Gulf war in
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: The kuway.
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: Case so presidents don't want to go To.
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: Congress but at least in the, past what they've, done
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: AND i think that that case actually helped Pressure. Congress
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: at least what they've done in the past is that
• 52:33
  Speaker 3: they've had, votes and even if they've authorized, war they've
• 52:36
  Speaker 3: taken it upon themselves to. Engage so even in The
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: Spanish American, war for, instance which was a colonial war
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: of an explicit, kind although it was horrific that, history
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: there was a recognition that the responsibility rested With congress
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: to have that. Debate SO i don't think here that
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: any debate is going to result in an authorization of
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: the use of force For. Greenland and unlike any of
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: these cases where, yes there was a debate but force was,
• 53:03
  Speaker 3: AUTHORIZED i think what would happen is the. Opposite and you,
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: know then at least the constitutional lines are.
• 53:08
  Speaker 2: Clear, no he has no ability to move.
• 53:10
  Speaker 1: Forward is it even worth talking about how restrictions on
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: military action And american law intersect with international law obligations
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: and treaties or as international law just woke at this, point, Professor.
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: You, KNOW i would hope so that they would both,
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: matter and we talked about both the last. Time The
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: nuremberg trials set the precedent and one of the things
• 53:31
  Speaker 3: that came out and you see, it especially in the
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: cross examination Of. GOURING i recommend the film that's Out
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: nuremberg where you see this re enacted with RUSS i
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: really want to see it in the role Of. Goring
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: but you, know they were prosecuted for not just crimes
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: against humanity related to The holocaust and the horrors of
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: the evil of the, horrorcaust but for the violation and
• 53:54
  Speaker 3: the setting of precedent that one nation cannot unprovoked attack.
• 53:58
  Speaker 3: Another you, know, unfortunately that norm is just, disappearing and
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: the idea that we have the moral authority to criticize
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: putin About ukraine and still engage in This venezuela adventure
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: and in the possible attack On greenland that that's even being.
• 54:15
  Speaker 3: Discussed it's really just so cut into the idea of international.
• 54:18
  Speaker 2: LAW i do think it still. MATTERS i think it's
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: important to talk.
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: About but when we're talking about what we often are,
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: like where's the hope, Come that's not really Where i'm
• 54:26
  Speaker 3: finding the hope right. Now i'm finding it more in
• 54:29
  Speaker 3: THE Us, congress in the constitutional limits on the president's war.
• 54:33
  Speaker 1: Power, BOY i do hope that's the. Case that's What
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: i'm hoping for that as. Well BUT i, mean, look
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: we've discussed. THIS i think That Donald trump And Pete
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: hegseth have a. Plot my belief is that they HATE.
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: Jd van so much they want to See Mark kelly
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: humiliate him for the presidency in twenty twenty, eight BECAUSE
• 54:50
  Speaker 1: i swear that's the ONLY i, mean they are trying
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: so hard to Make Mark kelly look presidential and to
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: Make Mark kelly look like a real leader. Here And
• 54:58
  Speaker 1: god bless Ted loop getting on board with. THIS i,
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: mean we have to keep on saying it is accurate
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: that service members are legally obligated to disobey orders they
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: believe to be. UNCONSTITUTIONAL i mean pundits, aside how do
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: legal standards evaluate such a, Choice, COREY i, mean the
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: law is clear on.
• 55:16
  Speaker 3: This, YEAH i mean to remind listeners who maybe weren't following,
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: It But Senator Mark kelly said something that Is it's a.
• 55:23
  Speaker 2: Truism it's so obviously. True it's not SOMETHING i need to.
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: Prove it's just a basic of military, law and it's
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: in all the. Manuals it's what you learn in officer training.
• 55:35
  Speaker 3: School or In West, point which is that there is
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: an obligation to not follow an illegal.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Order and if you.
• 55:43
  Speaker 3: Want an illustration of, that to go back to the
• 55:45
  Speaker 3: Film nuremberg and The nuremberg. Trials that is exactly what
• 55:49
  Speaker 3: The nazis on trial tried to, say that they were
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: just following. Orders and you see that In eikman case as,
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: well and what all the precedents in international law suggest was,
• 56:00
  Speaker 3: no that that is no way an. Excuse if it's
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: an illegal, order you have an obligation not to follow. It,
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: now you know that's something that's so embedded IN us
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: law and The Military, code in the norms That Mark
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: kelly must have. Thought you, know it's not going out
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: on a limb by just saying this truism that you're
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: not supposed to follow an illegal. Order And hegsath WHO
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: i THINK i have it at eighty percent THAT i
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: was his teaching.
• 56:24
  Speaker 2: Assistant what was the class at of all? Liberties, yeah
• 56:29
  Speaker 2: you don't need to brag.
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: Failure you don't need to spread that, Around. Corey you
• 56:32
  Speaker 1: really don't need to SPREAD i don't know what your
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: tenure situation, is but you don't need to be advertising.
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: That corey just let.
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: You, Know, OKAY i Think i'm all.
• 56:39
  Speaker 5: Right.
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: SITUATION i, mean it kind of you keep. Talking it
• 56:42
  Speaker 1: kind of seems, like, oh you have the evil powder
• 56:44
  Speaker 1: one who fell to the dark. Side but keep on
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: pushing the, story if you.
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: On if you, KNOW i think he did pretty well
• 56:50
  Speaker 2: in that. Class you, know but.
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: In the long, run there's some failure of teaching THAT
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: i must have engaged, in you, know going After Mark
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: kelly for saying something that is so obviously.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: True what is?
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: It it's, again all these things look so strange from
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: the standpoint of. Democracy but to continue with my, theme
• 57:08
  Speaker 3: from the standpoint of authoritarianism or, Yes i'd go so
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: far as to say. Fascism you, know that is a
• 57:14
  Speaker 3: fascistic argument just following orders obey it all like not
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: that it is The nazi argument In, nuremberg, yes and in.
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: Trial and you, know this is just what they.
• 57:26
  Speaker 3: Want and that's why from the lens of, democracy the
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: lens of the world that we're all want.
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: To, occupy it looks so.
• 57:33
  Speaker 3: Strange and yet they're trying to bring about a different
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: world when in which you do obey in illegal, order which,
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: well the PRESIDENT i think let's get to what authoritarianism
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: says if the president says, it that's the.
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: Law that's. It that's how these fascists. Work AND i
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: can't wait to see The nuremberg. MOVIE i don't think
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: it's going to make me forget judgment At, Nurenberg, cory
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: BUT i have this REAL i have this real thing
• 57:58
  Speaker 1: for a middle Aged russell row Like brando eating the,
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: scenery rolls Like Russell crowe In Pope's exorcist or in
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: Playing zeus in the Fourth thor. Movie just show it.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: UP i, mean what's he. Wearing it looks like it
• 58:11
  Speaker 1: looks Like gerring's wearing a smock in that. Movie my,
• 58:14
  Speaker 1: god he was the best Fed nazi on the front.
• 58:16
  Speaker 1: Line it appears just for. Me i'll just be there
• 58:19
  Speaker 1: to Watch Russell crowe come and over act at this, point.
• 58:22
  Speaker 2: BUT i is, good he plays.
• 58:24
  Speaker 1: IT i have no doubt he's. Great i'll watch him
• 58:27
  Speaker 1: over act in. Anything at this. Point it's to, me
• 58:29
  Speaker 1: it's that middle Aged brando period where he just shows,
• 58:31
  Speaker 1: up takes a check and overdoes. It AND i love.
• 58:34
  Speaker 1: It watch That exorcist. Movie my, god the man's. Hilarious all, Right,
• 58:38
  Speaker 1: corey we have to bring this thing. Home across these.
• 58:41
  Speaker 1: Issues we've discussed THE ice deployments and THE fed, independence
• 58:45
  Speaker 1: and the civil rights, rhetoric and the racism and the
• 58:48
  Speaker 1: unauthorized military. ACTIONS i, MEAN i ask you this On SIRIUS,
• 58:52
  Speaker 1: xm but what unifying constitutional principles are at stake or
• 58:57
  Speaker 1: is it just?
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: Everything, WELL i mean the way THAT i been summing it,
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: up and listeners have heard me talk about, This, john
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: you have BECAUSE i think it's the useful framework for
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: this period of time that we're living. In we're living
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: through a historical. Moment it is a threat to. Democracy
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: so how should we understand? It and often it's by,
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: analogy and the analogy in particular with what's happened in
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: Many Latin american countries that also follow our presidential. Systems
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: systems around the world are based usually on the parliamentary
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: system of The British parliament or of The United states
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: and its separation of, powers including its creation of an independent,
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: president Of congress and. Judiciary but what you've seen in
• 59:37
  Speaker 3: so many models in which the presidential system has been
• 59:40
  Speaker 3: used is, that in, fact there's one studies that suggests
• 59:44
  Speaker 3: in every instance it's collapsed except to The United states
• 59:47
  Speaker 3: And Costa rica is the consolidation of power within the
• 59:51
  Speaker 3: presidency that you, know the. Courts if you think about,
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: it they're often called the least dangerous branch because they
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: don't control the power of the. Purse they don't have.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: Military The congress does have the power of the. Purse
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: but as we've saw with those that can be, usurped
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: the president with the control of the, military, now with
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: the control of this frightening domestic terror force in the,
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 3: ice can collapse the other, branches and can collapse even
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: the other. Tier the power of the states to. Resist
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: if that, succeeds we no longer live in a. Democracy
• 1:00:22
  Speaker 3: we live in a. Dictatorship that's what's being attempted. Here
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: that's transparently what's, happening because you hear the presidents say
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 3: it all the, time every.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Week and that's what ties together all these.
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: Stories the attack on states' rights that we talked about
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 3: in the first, instance and the states trying to fight,
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 3: back the attack on the independence of the federal, reserve
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: the power Of congress to protect the fed. Chair and
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 3: then in this adventurism of colonialism and want to be,
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 3: imperialism and in the third, act they're all about the
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: consolidation of power within the presidency and the destruction of.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: Democracy that's the.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: Attempt but yet we've also talked about the ways in
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 3: which the states have fought back The drome power all
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: himself is fighting back members Of, congress including Some, republicans war.
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: Powers so it's not.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: Over you, know we're in a constitutional, crisis that's for.
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: Sure but that's a good thing because it means that
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 3: it's that we didn't. Lose you want a constitutional crisis
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: when there's an attempted self, coup not not a successful self.
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 2: Coup and, yeah they're not all.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: Crises some of them are just constitutional challenges as. Well
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: some of the crises some are just. Challenges they're not
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: all hair on. Fire BUT i, Mean i'm listening you
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: say all, this and you know my job is trying
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: to keep my head up and encourage. People but let
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: me just finish the show by asking one last dumb.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: QUESTION i, mean all these, controversies do these to you
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: reveal structural weaknesses in The constitution that the framers just
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: failed to plan, on or are we instead just witnessing
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 1: the existing norms being tested beyond their historical.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: Application, well you, know the founders were of two. Minds
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: they all believed in The declaration of in The pence
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 3: at the time The constitution was, written but there was
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 3: a real debate that took place between the pro constitutional,
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: forces the, federalists and the anti constitutional, forces the anti
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: federalists who said the following, Thing this is a dangerous.
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 3: Constitution it pretends to have all these checks and. Balances
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: congress checks the, president The court Checks congress and the,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: president the states check the federal. Government but in the,
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: end don't sign this. Thing don't ratify this because it's
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 3: not going to. Work the checks are so weak it's
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: going to all collapse into the. Presidency that was the
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: argument of revolutionary, heroes even Like Patrick.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 2: Henry don't ratify this.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: Thing, now those who came back, said, no we have
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: so many levers. Here we have a separation of, powers
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 3: we have the, courts we have the states and their
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 3: ability to protect civil. Liberties and Then i'd add to
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: what you saw that you see Throughout american history is
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 3: you have the ability of citizens like our, listeners like
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: this Hero good who really has become a martyr for
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 3: the cause of, democracy taking The constitution into their own
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: hands and fighting back even when all.
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: Of the branches have abandoned.
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 3: It and you, know that's the period that we're in.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: Now we've seen that before the newspaper editors who Fought
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 3: John Adams, tyranny Or Frederick douglas who Fought buchanan And
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 3: Andrew johnson And trotter And ida B, wells who fought
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 3: back against the white, supremacy which now we're seeing reflected
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: in this president Of Woodrow. Wilson so there are real
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: checks over. Time, now it's not inevitable that the checks will.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 3: Work it's not what you learned in, civics that's seventh grade,
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: civics that we have these checks and.
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 2: Balances don't worry about, it no.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: Worry but, Yeah i'm hopeful in the end that the
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: anti federalists were wrong and that we will.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 1: Prevail Professor, bretschneider you are the best at what you.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 1: Do what is the best way for our listeners to
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 1: keep up with your constitutional brilliance the other six days
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 1: of the.
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: Week, well we have so many reviews out there On.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: Spotify oh my, god the.
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 1: Reviews thank you, people thank you five.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: Stars they're you, know so enthusiastic about, dynamic about you,
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 3: know precisely what we're, doing trying to be honest about
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 3: what's happening in this, country but also about the hope
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 3: of pushing. Back that's what's resonating in our amazing, guests
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: which will, continue we'll start announcing, them so keep leaving those.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 2: Reviews tell your. Friends we have a.
• 1:04:17
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• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: week as we, talk with links to the stories that we're.
• 1:04:24
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• 1:04:25
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• 1:04:27
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• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: Both AND i just want to tell Everyone i'm On
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• 1:04:35
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  Speaker 1: subscribe To, SERIOUS i got a, substack and my book
• 1:04:43
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• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: now at Every Non evil website you buy book. Set,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 1: COREY i want to thank you as always for talking
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: me off a ledge with just, reason and that's a.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: Gift at this, POINT i want to Thank beowulf And
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: wendy and everyone who keeps this train the, tracks and,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: then most of, all thanks to all of our deeply
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 1: sexually attractive listeners here for keeping the show. Going and
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: please write to. Us corey, right we read your. Letters,
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: please we'll do a whole bunch next. Week but let
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: us know your, questions your, complaints your, thoughts your, threats
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: your terrible. Jokes send them all to us and we'll
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: share them here on the show on behalf of. Everyone
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: thank you so, much And, corey thank you for doing
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: what you.
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 2: Do thank You, John what a. Pleasure we'll see.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 1: You guys next time on the OTH m The office