Latest / Thick No More / When the Headteacher Becomes the SEND Parent | Kate Manning on Dyslexia, Inclusion & Fixing Education

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When the Headteacher Becomes the SEND Parent | Kate Manning on Dyslexia, Inclusion & Fixing Education · Thick No More

• 0:01
  Hey everybody, welcome back to another episode of Thick No
• 0:06
  More. This is the podcast where we
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  challenge labels, we celebrate different ways of thinking, and
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  we share stories of people who, for me, systematically refuse to
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  let others define their potential.
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  I am. I'm always excited about
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  everybody that comes on this podcast.
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  But I met this lady on LinkedIn. I don't know, she's got a better
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  memory than me. So she'll tell you a while ago
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  on LinkedIn and we've been talking and sharing stuff and
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  yeah, we just kind of really hit it off.
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  And she's got some some things going on in her life.
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  She's got some testing times at the moment.
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  And she's also doing something really exciting which I really
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  want to share with you all. But for me, I think the most
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  important thing, not only is Kate a head teacher, an
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  educational leader, massive send advocate, which I love, the most
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  important thing, she's a mum. And that's what touches me the
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  most. She's going through first hand
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  experiences and challenges of raising a child with dyslexia
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  and additional needs and what I guess is system that doesn't
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  work for every learner. Hate Manning.
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  Welcome to Thick No more. I am over the moon to have you
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  on and I can't wait for everyone to hear your story.
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  Thank you now. Listen, I've got the tissues
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  ready, OK? Because I think there's going to
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  be an emotional 1. So I'm going to put an emotional
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  warning on straight away. But it's it's amazing to have
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  you on Kate. So OK, I always ask everybody
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  this question just for today. I'm a magic man, OK?
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  And I'm going to wave my little wand from now on.
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  And actually someone told me the other week that every time they
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  open the door, they're trying to visualize this moment.
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  So don't let this, don't let this affect you.
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  But every time you open the door from now on, a theme tune is
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  going to play. What's your tune and why?
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  I think it would probably be a song.
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  The title really personifies everything that I believe in and
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  what I do. 1 as a mum and two as an educator and three as a
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  leader. And that's probably Dreams by
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  Gabrielle because I really want to instill in Ali, my daughter,
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  that dreams do come true. It doesn't matter if you've got
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  barriers to anything in life, you can absolutely achieve those
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  dreams. I think as an educator, I think
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  it's one of the songs that I teach the children and
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  previously have taught children in assembly because I think the
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  words is really powerful in teaching that anything is
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  possible. I think it was like an Olympic
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  theme tune as well, or the Commonwealth theme tune as well.
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  Yeah. So they could relate to it a
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  little bit in that sense. But I think as a SEND advocate
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  and educator as well, I think it's really important as we go
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  through quite turbulent time in education and SEND to still have
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  that belief. And that if we have our dreams,
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  that we can change it. And that we're not just going to
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  sit back and say and accept what is happening in the current
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  situation, the current climate identification and send.
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  We we do need that belief and we do need that end goal of the
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  dream is to change it and make it an absolutely purposeful
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  education system environment where everybody thrives and can
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  achieve their possible endless dreams as well.
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  So it could probably. Be that and the podcast there
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  with that statement, quite frankly, great song.
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  I love Gabrielle one one of my favorite Gabrielle one of so I
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  have a few. OK, I'm not going to use that
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  word, but I have a few things which I think I am particularly
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  one is my visual memory. So I can remember a little old
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  lady crossing the road because there was AI don't know what was
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  a flag up at the time. And she'd got her a yellow
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  walking stick. And I'll tell you the name of
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  the town, the year, the date that I was there and everything,
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  right? That's one of the things.
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  The other thing I'm really, really good at is remembering
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  songs, the names of songs, the artist, you know, And there's
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  another really, really good song by Gabrielle called Rice.
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  So that's your challenge tonight.
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  Go away and listen to that as well, because that's another one
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  where she talks about getting up from, from being on the on the
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  ground when you're when you're down and, and, and things are
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  testing you. And yeah.
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  And it's, it's I'm going to rise again.
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  It's brilliant. Really, really good songs.
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  Have a listen to that one as well.
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  But yeah, great choice, great choice.
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  OK, so we can see the sign behind you.
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  I know what you do for a living, but I want you to tell me,
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  forget about the job for a moment.
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  Tell me who caters away from the job title.
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  So I'm a mem. It's probably my proudest
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  achievement in life being a MEM. And I actually am not scared to
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  say at all that I became better educator when I was a MEM.
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  I became more relatable and approachable.
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  You I honestly, I'm one of these educators that believe that you
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  can absolutely learn and research everything, which I
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  really believe is powerful and important in education.
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  However, being a mum, I really feel is has given me that next
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  level of empathy, parental partnership and relatability as
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  well at the moment. So I've got one daughter, Annie,
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  she's 9, going to be 10, two weeks.
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  She it has some difficulties. So I'm a I'm a mem, but I'm a
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  mem with barriers myself as a send parent to be a passionate
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  educator and worker, which I'll touch on a little bit more
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  because I think that is something that is not spoken
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  about in SEND when the quality of parents is send parents to
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  access. And it's not like in everything
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  in the world is not necessarily who what you know is who you
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  know. But putting them both together
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  helps. And if you don't know send or
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  you don't know anybody, you're lost in the system.
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  But I think as well, I'm a real passionate educator and I'm
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  brave. I'm not scared to put my hand up
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  in a conference and challenge the norm.
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  I'm touching on this a bit later as well, but I'm doing that in
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  education at the moment and maybe on a smaller scale, but
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  I'm hoping it's going to be bigger.
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  I'm trying to challenge the norm of it's not a competition of
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  places, it's about providing the right opportunities for all
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  children. That's what education is for me.
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  Although I do think it's become very competitive, a competitive
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  industry in the sense because of financial and budget restraints.
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  But I'm also passionate. It's quite funny.
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  So my daughter races, she ski races.
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  So I'm passionate in that sense. And actually I was quite taken
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  back as we go on family holidays as skiers as well.
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  But it's a sense of freedom. There are many neuro diverse
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  children in the ski racing circuit and to see those moments
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  of celebration and growth when somebody goes from a really
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  quiet ski racer to the freedom of going down the slope and then
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  remembering the visual of what course they've got to do, it
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  really instills them and gives them that opportunity to
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  achieve. So I'm part of the ski
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  community, yeah, but I'm also a voice, I think as well.
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  Yeah, you. Are so I really that's I would
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  say that was my other role. I never go into a room as an
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  educator, always a mum and apologize for being here.
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  I start with I am Annie's voice or I am the voice of children
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  with unique needs or barriers to learning.
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  I don't sort of say send because I'm very much against having a
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  label. Yeah, stays with you for a long
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  time, unfortunately, as you well know.
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  I've told you, you know, and what you're saying now is
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  brilliant and good on you. Absolutely.
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  Good on you. I think at the moment is
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  probably as a man, my biggest there's two biggest barriers to
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  be in appearance. And so Annie isn't officially
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  diagnosed unfortunately. When she was seven I knew that
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  she couldn't get a dyslexic assessment till she was 7.
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  That's what I was told. So being that mam first time mam
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  and wanting the best my daughter I panicked.
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  I paid something close to 1000 lbs for a private assessor.
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  She came to the house, sat with Ali, who was seven and two weeks
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  and remember like it was yesterday, for three hours,
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  giving her an American test and gave us a six page report at the
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  end, which no professional or medically trained professional
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  will even accept. It was heartbreaking because now
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  we're just starting again. To interrupt you.
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  I wonder how many other parents have done that Exactly the same.
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  Because I'm telling you now, you're not on your own.
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  Anyone that's listening, we get loads of parents listening if
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  you've been through this because this is something else.
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  I really want to make aware that there are a lot listen.
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  There are some really good reputable companies out there
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  that will do a proper assessment.
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  They they don't correct and above board and great.
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  But there are also some people advertise things.
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  I've fallen trap to it myself with my oldest son for an ADHD
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  assessment. And yeah, and I, I think it's
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  really sad and it's, it's one of the things that I was really
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  shocked, probably being a bit of a naive person and a mum at the
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  time, is that if you think, and I think this is where schools
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  can really change that. I've got a meeting this
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  afternoon with this. I am excited about the white
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  paper report and reform of my interpretation of that though
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  and what that means. And I am very much aware of
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  that's probably not everybody's interpretation of it.
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  So the idea of specialists talking and connecting really
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  excites me and that Bank of specialist sport one as a
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  parent, because if I know that I've got quality assured
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  specialists there at hand that parents or daughters and my
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  daughter can access, and I know that's right, you won't fall
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  down this trap. I think the education system, I
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  think the NHS need to be aware of more of these people out
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  there that are just praying on send parents as well.
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  And because you're in a state of panic, grief comes with it as
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  well. I was in a conference last week
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  and we spent a whole hour talking about parent
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  partnerships and dealing with confrontational parents.
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  And this is where I say I was probably became a better person
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  when I became a mum. And because it's a grief
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  process, every everybody wants some things they have in this
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  perfect child. One of the biggest barriers for
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  me is my family. He didn't understand.
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  They were like, kid, you're a head teacher.
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  How what you mean your daughter's struggling with
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  phonics. What do you what do you mean
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  Annie's struggling to read? What?
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  What do you mean she can't spell And I and.
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  It was. How did you, how did you feel,
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  Kate? When, Like when?
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  When there's a couple of things you just said there and I've put
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  them up here because I really need to come back to them
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  because it's really important. But as a mum, not as not as an
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  educator. How did how did you feel when
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  you realized she was struggling? And what was what was the moment
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  when you thought that doesn't, that's not right?
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  What's something that's not quite right there?
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  Was there a moment that you remember or do you remember your
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  emotions during that time? Yeah, I was.
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  I was gutted, selfishly, if I'm honest.
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  I'm a real passionate head teacher.
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  I love my job and it's demanding time restraints on that and it's
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  a real juggling act between being a parent and not.
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  So that produced me barriers because I couldn't give Annie
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  everything that she needed because of the restraints of my
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  job. That basically the pressures of
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  that. So it was, I suppose, guilt and
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  I felt what did I do wrong because I am somebody that gives
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  absolutely everything. And I think that's where we need
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  a mindset change with this. And it probably wasn't until
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  about 6, probably a year ago actually, where I really changed
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  my mindset and being in mind that he's 10.
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  So it's taken us a good couple of years and and I'm in the
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  profession as well that it's not about fixing Annie.
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  She can read. She just wasn't going to read at
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  the time in which the education system in England wanted her to
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  read. She would she can read the I, it
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  was more for me then and I've changed her mindset of OK, what
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  can she do? Let's celebrate that.
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  And in order for her to achieve her dreams, going back to that
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  first question or final end destination of whatever she
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  wants to achieve, what supportive tools and skills can
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  we give her that will help that? And that doesn't mean giving her
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  a label. It doesn't mean to me having 10
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  minutes extra time in a test. It doesn't mean to me her being
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  and, and I'll touch on these a little bit more and dig deeper
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  into these. An advocate for accessibility in
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  a school. She she just wants to be a
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  normal child, whatever that is, and be celebrated for her
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  uniqueness and, and why not? No, totally a question I have
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  for you then. This is one of my concerns,
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  right? And I, I, I'm going to this,
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  this is a 2 pronged question. So first of all, I worry that
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  all of these parents that are in this situation was you're in, we
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  take away the fact that you're ahead as well.
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  But I worry that they've stopped becoming parents on this journey
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  that they're on. You mentioned it's taken years,
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  the amount of parents that say to me we've stopped becoming mum
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  and dad. We're a reader, we're a scriber,
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  we're a writer. When you know Jay comes home, we
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  have to help him. So that's my first question.
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  Did you, did you have, how was the balance between work and and
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  home? That's the first question.
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  The second question you mentioned about providing her
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  any tools, accessible things to make her life, which is
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  brilliant. Another worry I have, what I see
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  a lot is we give a tool, so a tool for me to help me with my
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  dyslexia and I think and I, I'm not, I can't go back in time.
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  I think if I could go back in time and someone gave me
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  something to do it to make my life level.
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  I'm not saying easier or cheat. I'm saying level a level playing
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  field with everybody else. Would I have used that
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  equipment? I don't think I would have
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  because you know why? I'd already been told that I
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  can't do it, that I'm not good enough.
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  I think that someone giving me something to make my life level,
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  I've stopped using it because nobody else is using it.
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  It would have also made me look different, even more than I
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  already felt I was. So how is she adapted to being
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  given these tools? So question one, what was the
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  difference between parenting? Did you find it altered you?
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  And secondly, how is she adapted to using these tools she's
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  given? Is she?
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  Is she embracing it or is she? Is there some reluctance?
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  So the first question I think for me is everybody I said,
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  including my husband, my family were like, you don't read enough
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  with her at home. You don't because I'm a head
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  teacher. I might not come home till six,
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  7:00. That's not the I I know from
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  research. That's not the right idea of
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  time. Annie uses the excuse herself.
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  She'll tell people, oh, I've done my homework because I've
• 17:29
  done too much skiing. She uses that herself.
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  And I think I took away the pressure.
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  So I took that pressure on. And no, I never signed a reading
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  diary. No, I didn't make a read at
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  home. If she didn't want to do her
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  spellings, I didn't make her do it.
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  So because what was the point? She's in that fight mode at that
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  point and it'd end up in an argument.
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  I am at most her mom. And when I closed, and I suppose
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  maybe it was easier for me because I could finish school
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  and I never wanted to be Annie's teacher.
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  It sort of bridges the second question as well.
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  We've even looked at. So at the moment, she's
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  struggling in school. She's got Sats.
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  Next year. Whether we're going to do those
• 18:18
  Sats or whether we're not, I don't know.
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  We've got a bit of a sort of bouncing back and forth with
• 18:24
  Annie because she wants to be the same of her friends and
• 18:27
  enjoy the free breakfast and have all those Sats treats.
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  Will she be able to do that if she doesn't do a Sats?
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  But she knows that. Yeah.
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  What Sats are? Park that for a minute.
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  That's. My next question.
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  So yeah, we'll catch to that one.
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  Don't worry however. So we were looking for tutors
• 18:47
  for her, particularly around spelling, punctuation and
• 18:51
  comprehension. Then I've sort of was like Kate,
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  you tell everybody about skills and providing children with
• 19:02
  skills that are actually preparing for life.
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  What does Annie need? She needs self belief.
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  Ultimately, she needs self belief.
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  Anxiety is huge for her. If she thinks she's done 100
• 19:17
  percent in a SAT reading test, then I am winning at life.
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  She's winning at life. It's all about how she feels
• 19:24
  rather than that entertainment. So we changed it.
• 19:28
  We've actually got a tutor for her, but it's a drama teacher.
• 19:32
  She's going to have 1/2 an hour session with this drama teacher.
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  Yeah, don't get me wrong. Understand that her reading will
• 19:39
  improve presentation skills, will improve her understanding,
• 19:42
  a comprehension of influence of what the actor wants to feel.
• 19:47
  But Annie doesn't feel like she's in that box of that
• 19:50
  environment where she's got to do more work, where she's got to
• 19:53
  mask more, where she's got to work double the amount of
• 19:56
  everybody else because she's trying to do maths or English or
• 20:00
  whatever it is that she finds so hard.
• 20:03
  So I suppose we've taken a different outlook of it.
• 20:06
  We're going to try, I'm not saying it's going to work, but
• 20:09
  we've, we're going to, we've approached a drama school and
• 20:13
  just said, can we have half an hour before?
• 20:15
  And he doesn't go to drama because she loves it.
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  She can't go to a drama school because that anxiety of not
• 20:22
  knowing and the self acceptance is too high for her just to go
• 20:27
  along. So we've said we've got a few 10
• 20:30
  minute sessions. So I'm taking the drama teacher
• 20:33
  out for coffee and we're just having in a place Annie's
• 20:35
  familiar with. Then we're going to build it up
• 20:38
  so she'll have 10 minutes choking with Annie.
• 20:40
  And then hopefully our end goal of that succession of that
• 20:45
  tutoring, if you want to call it, but a different way of
• 20:48
  looking at it will be Annie joins that drama club.
• 20:51
  She'll. Remember.
• 20:51
  She'll remember all of it as well.
• 20:53
  She'll remember. For the right reasons though.
• 20:55
  Correct, correct. Because there's no pressure and
• 20:58
  there's no expectants. There's no, this is the end goal
• 21:01
  that you need to achieve. I had a there's something you
• 21:04
  don't need to listen to all about.
• 21:05
  I'll try and dig the clip out for it and I'll share it with
• 21:07
  you. I did a podcast with a guy I
• 21:09
  don't know, middle of last year, a guy from Australia.
• 21:13
  He wrote a book called Neuro Spicy.
• 21:15
  Interesting title, yeah. He told me a story about there
• 21:21
  was a guy, a teacher who was teaching children with who was
• 21:25
  struggling completely different. So to teach them maths he would
• 21:29
  take them out on a surfboard, this is on Australia, and they
• 21:32
  would paddle out somewhere and paddle back and then he'd go,
• 21:36
  what have you learnt today? How many strokes did it take to
• 21:39
  get from there to there? So he was teaching them maths
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  subconsciously without them even realising because they were
• 21:46
  doing something they were enjoying and the whole aspect of
• 21:51
  being outside of that and go. Which leads me really nicely on
• 21:56
  to this question. You once said that I've read
• 21:58
  this, right? I forget why I read it.
• 21:59
  I don't know if you put it on LinkedIn or it's something
• 22:01
  you've written. The system measures compliance,
• 22:06
  not capability. Can you tell us what led you to
• 22:10
  that conclusion? I think the education system is
• 22:15
  too old. It's really outdated.
• 22:17
  It's interest in the skills, there's a skills audit, didn't
• 22:20
  they? And there's, it got released
• 22:21
  yesterday. And it's those skills that we
• 22:25
  don't teach in education, but we all say we're preparing children
• 22:29
  for the future. So what I mean by that is, and I
• 22:33
  suppose that leads us on to why. So there's two reasons why I
• 22:36
  left mainstream or your typical education system and it's gone
• 22:41
  independent. One, because I'm a mum and I
• 22:43
  needed that flexibility to be Annie's voice.
• 22:45
  So the the pressures that I have had to fight Annie's 'cause I
• 22:54
  send or have to reply to several emails a day, I have to be on
• 22:58
  tap to attend meetings. I as well as meeting Annie's
• 23:02
  needs and supporting her with her barriers.
• 23:05
  So yesterday, first day back at school after half term, anxiety
• 23:09
  through the roof, just couldn't cope with life needed that a
• 23:14
  dope mean of a McDonald's breakfast and that chill.
• 23:18
  And so your morning just goes to pot.
• 23:21
  So I need that flexibility. I think it's so sad that
• 23:25
  workplaces don't provide that flexibility for parents and it's
• 23:30
  a it's a barrier for parents to work can share their passion as
• 23:35
  well. As you can probably tell, I'm
• 23:37
  really passionate to educate and I love what I do.
• 23:39
  But if that flexibility was there, amazing.
• 23:42
  The compliance side of things is I was fed up of standing in
• 23:49
  parents evenings, assemblies, conferences and saying to
• 23:53
  parents stakeholders preaching from an education system that
• 23:58
  was made where industries were all sat in rows.
• 24:03
  Why are we expecting children sit on plastic chairs 6 hours a
• 24:08
  day? We wouldn't, we don't.
• 24:10
  Why are we expecting children to learn about?
• 24:14
  And I always use this one because it's a vivid memory that
• 24:18
  sticks in my mind. With Annie, my own gods in Year
• 24:22
  5, she's never going to use that at all.
• 24:26
  She does not need it. But if we taught them skills of
• 24:32
  how to present, how to interact financial management from the
• 24:37
  early years, from the early years that the early years
• 24:40
  already do, the earliest environment gets it right.
• 24:45
  It really does. Don't get me wrong, the the
• 24:47
  development matters and birth to five is still fitting children
• 24:50
  in box. It's still for your normal
• 24:54
  children and we expect children to reach that.
• 24:56
  What if we just celebrated milestones and realized that
• 25:00
  people but all individuals, they don't say doctors have to be
• 25:05
  doctors by the age of but they in our education system says
• 25:09
  that by the age of 11, they have to have done this sats in
• 25:13
  England and be a level 4. It's not it doesn't matter.
• 25:18
  Yeah, so that's where I mean compliance and yes, you have to
• 25:23
  be brave. I often my previous office I in
• 25:28
  my store cup, but I had a pair of huge pants because sometimes
• 25:32
  when you're going into meetings, you do need to put your big
• 25:34
  girls pants on. And I used to say to staff,
• 25:37
  right, have a look at those pants sitting there, because you
• 25:39
  absolutely do. If you're going to be the norm
• 25:42
  and just follow that robotic system, nothing's going to
• 25:46
  change. They was.
• 25:47
  Do you think that that do? You think there's too much
• 25:50
  pressure on on, on sort of in the education in some schools.
• 25:56
  I I'll be reserved to what I say, but do you think there's
• 25:59
  too much pressure and focus on data and outcomes?
• 26:04
  Yes, but, and that comes from the top down of Ofsted.
• 26:10
  They've now brought in attainment and data measures.
• 26:13
  I speak to fellow colleagues and professionals that are not
• 26:16
  getting those top outcomes of Ofsted because their GLD or
• 26:20
  their attainment levels aren't correct, even though their
• 26:23
  progress is rocketed and not in line with national or two like 2
• 26:31
  points, 2 percentage points beyond National rather than 5.
• 26:36
  But to me, that's where the bravery comes in as a leader
• 26:39
  that shouldn't matter. Like what is Ofsted for?
• 26:45
  I love the fact that Ofsted really are pushing that you
• 26:48
  shouldn't have banners to say we are an outstanding school.
• 26:52
  I always say to friends, colleagues that are going to see
• 26:56
  different schools, they'll say to me, how do you know which
• 26:59
  school is right for your child? And it's a real crucial part
• 27:04
  because you have your two year check as a parent, you you give
• 27:08
  birth, then have a two year check in the NHS to see whether
• 27:11
  they're developmentally on track.
• 27:14
  Again, another day to limit to when somebody's got to achieve
• 27:18
  or your child's got to achieve and then you don't hear off any
• 27:21
  big day until you're applying for school.
• 27:22
  No guidance, no support at all. Never mind whether you you're
• 27:27
  thinking to yourself, has my child got a bit of barriers
• 27:29
  here? Are they playing right?
• 27:31
  Are they interacting right? Never mind that alone.
• 27:35
  So I always say to people treat her like a wedding dress.
• 27:38
  So what? What might suit you or what
• 27:41
  might be fit you right or feel right for you on your special
• 27:46
  day should be like a school. Go and visit it, go unannounced
• 27:50
  because there's so many schools that will put on brilliant
• 27:53
  showcases. I've taught in some that'll be
• 27:57
  like right, OK, when we're showing this person around,
• 27:59
  these are the classrooms that they're going in.
• 28:02
  Same with Ofsted, particularly if you're in big school, you can
• 28:05
  gear them to the right people. However, I always say Turnip
• 28:10
  unannounced. I'm treated as a wedding dress.
• 28:14
  So your first feel with the and what's right, I will never
• 28:22
  comment on what's right or the best school because I don't
• 28:26
  believe there is a best school in the best in the inner town
• 28:30
  because we've got everybody's different and we would never
• 28:35
  expect everybody to work in the same workplace under the same
• 28:40
  conditions. So why are we expecting children
• 28:42
  to be fit into that mode? I wish I knew.
• 28:46
  And, and some of the stuff you just said there that I would say
• 28:51
  a huge core of the people that listen to this podcast, our
• 28:54
  parents, you know, so there's some great advice there.
• 28:58
  Unfortunately, they don't. A lot of them don't reach out to
• 29:01
  me. Some do, some don't.
• 29:02
  Unfortunately, I kind of get the feeling that a lot of them are
• 29:04
  already horrible way to describe this, but are too far gone.
• 29:09
  The system's already failed and we're too far down the line.
• 29:12
  But I hope that anyone that's just listened to that we're
• 29:14
  starting this journey, listens to what Kate said because, you
• 29:20
  know, I, I'll ask you this question and then I'll put my
• 29:24
  spin on it first. I think if we are not careful,
• 29:28
  that not now, not five years, probably 10 years down the line,
• 29:34
  we're going to be in a whole world of pain if we don't make
• 29:37
  some change. I, I, I recently managed to get
• 29:41
  my hands on a report and this is Ben.
• 29:44
  We're just talking about dyslexic children here, right?
• 29:47
  So just dyslexic children. The amount of dyslexic children
• 29:51
  that failed at school and ending up as young juveniles in the
• 29:55
  juvenile system. The figures are going like that
• 30:01
  year on year and it is so it's so worrying.
• 30:06
  I, I worry that, that, that, that a lot of it is based around
• 30:13
  money and rules and regulations and, and I get, I get there has
• 30:19
  to be, but we learn differently now.
• 30:24
  We've always, we've never all fit into one box anyway.
• 30:26
  Technology is, is changing that even more.
• 30:30
  It's opening and it's making that gap even wider.
• 30:34
  And I, I really worry. So with your education cap on
• 30:40
  for 2026 going into 2027, what worries you?
• 30:46
  Equality is real. I wish I'd done a case study,
• 30:53
  and I sort of have in my head as an educator.
• 30:58
  I had two families, both new and diverse.
• 31:02
  One parent 1 mother was a solicitor and the other was
• 31:09
  unemployed and just proud to be a mum because this mum knew how
• 31:17
  to write an e-mail, knew how to contact and who to CC in emails.
• 31:22
  Her child got in special school within six months.
• 31:26
  This child here who I see so many of these children in
• 31:35
  whatever you classify as me, I hate the word mainstream school
• 31:37
  because I don't think there is a mainstream school out there and
• 31:41
  we get to find this what it what does it mean?
• 31:44
  But never mind. So that child is still sick in a
• 31:51
  system that is trying to make him conform. the IT was one of
• 31:57
  the pushes that made me change and step out of the previous
• 32:02
  role I was in a director of education said to me, oh, Kate,
• 32:08
  what? What's been done for child day?
• 32:11
  What have you done? Talk to me about what you've
• 32:12
  done. And I sat back and said, I'll
• 32:17
  just rephrase that question. I said, are you telling me I've
• 32:20
  not done enough? I said, because let me tell you,
• 32:24
  as a head teacher, I know if I put in an EHCP application in
• 32:28
  the summer holidays, which I did for that child, it's more likely
• 32:32
  to go through the timelines will be quicker because there's less
• 32:37
  pressure on those people that are making those decisions with
• 32:39
  schools closed. I said I did that.
• 32:42
  I give up my whole week. I invited the parents in.
• 32:46
  I said I sat down, I come. I have weekly meetings with this
• 32:50
  parent to help her construct emails so she puts them to the
• 32:55
  right profession. I said I've not let them down.
• 32:58
  I said this system is letting them down.
• 33:02
  It's 20, it's 20 weeks, right? It's supposed to be 20 weeks.
• 33:05
  And what is it 5053% took over a year.
• 33:10
  So and every single one, 100% that have gone legal have won.
• 33:20
  So why should somebody have to go legal if it's law in the 1st
• 33:24
  place just to get the outcome that they already need again?
• 33:29
  It's this parent, yes. So the solicitor ma'am, she knew
• 33:33
  she wasn't scared, she was brave.
• 33:36
  She said we did mediation, it got refused.
• 33:40
  Then she said right, I'll take you to tribunal as soon as she
• 33:43
  put that e-mail in straight away.
• 33:47
  Yeah, I, I there's a I've got a lady coming on in a few weeks
• 33:51
  time. He has made three pre written
• 33:56
  e-mail group of emails for parents to help them to send.
• 34:00
  So they don't even have to type it up.
• 34:02
  But it just shows you. It just shows you and it it's it
• 34:07
  almost. We've got parents becoming OK in
• 34:12
  this case, this lady already was in the possession we're in in
• 34:15
  the profession. But we've got parents now
• 34:16
  becoming having to be lawyers to fight for their children just to
• 34:20
  get what they need to, to help them in a situation which they
• 34:23
  shouldn't even be in in the 1st place.
• 34:26
  Yeah. Anyway, and in heaven going
• 34:29
  going back to that parent and a real sad story here, they'll
• 34:33
  probably hit lots of families. Is that parent?
• 34:37
  Yes, she could write a brilliant e-mail.
• 34:39
  Yes, she could be the voice of her child.
• 34:41
  But when it come to an inclusive world and a close family member
• 34:45
  died, they travelled down South to go to that funeral.
• 34:49
  There was nobody around her to look after her son.
• 34:55
  There was nobody. What world do we live in?
• 34:58
  It's not jest. Like, what does that say to that
• 35:01
  child? It's really sad these.
• 35:05
  Memories stay with you for a long, long time and I know when
• 35:09
  we've had messages on LinkedIn and this is not a lie, this is
• 35:13
  genuinely the truth. You know, he's taken me 4849
• 35:21
  years for me to be brave enough just to ask a question because
• 35:27
  I'm so scared of have I understood what I've been
• 35:32
  listening to? Have I got the right line?
• 35:35
  Is this question appropriate? Am I going to look stupid
• 35:38
  because I think I'm stupid? So when you give someone a label
• 35:43
  and you, you stick that sticker on their forehead takes a very
• 35:47
  long time to peel off, believe me.
• 35:50
  And, and we are systematically doing that to children
• 35:56
  continually over and over again. And I think what you're doing
• 36:01
  with your daughter is brilliant. And I, I listen, there are,
• 36:06
  there are loads of different things that you can do.
• 36:08
  And over these next few weeks, I hope all these stories that, you
• 36:13
  know, particularly Kate's told you and, and the podcast before
• 36:16
  the Danielle, they're giving you different ways and different
• 36:19
  ideas of, of things you can do. And they may not be appropriate
• 36:22
  for, for your son or daughter. But I think you have to think
• 36:26
  about we, we, we position it that the end goal is there's
• 36:32
  your GCS ES. How's your GCS ES in your
• 36:35
  success failure GCS ES in you're a failure.
• 36:38
  And unfortunately, that's the mindset that a kid has.
• 36:41
  And, and you put them in that box and they're not meant to be
• 36:43
  in that box. That's it.
• 36:46
  You're on a hide. Intend to think because that's
• 36:48
  the bad bit, right? That's the bad bit.
• 36:51
  So the good bit. What excites you about 2020?
• 36:55
  I think the people are scared so of what we're doing, what me and
• 37:04
  my business partner can really do in education.
• 37:07
  Oh, they are. I can.
• 37:09
  I can definitely tell you they are.
• 37:11
  And I love it. And that's why whenever I see
• 37:13
  anything you put on LinkedIn, I give it a huge look.
• 37:15
  If I could make a bigger thumbs up, trust me I it'd be this big
• 37:18
  tell. US.
• 37:20
  What you're doing? Yeah, so, so basically I've set
• 37:27
  up a send specialist Independent School in Stoke on Trent.
• 37:32
  It isn't your typical classroom, so there's floor seating,
• 37:36
  there's twisty seats, there's standing desks in mirrors and
• 37:39
  environment that is needed. Yeah.
• 37:42
  No plastic, no plastic chairs. It's got circle tables that four
• 37:50
  people can sit around when like, and.
• 37:54
  And it's like people ask me why. Oh, it looks lovely, Kate, but
• 37:57
  why? I said, well, when we go into my
• 38:00
  office and we sit around the conference table, we sat around
• 38:03
  the same table. It's teaching them skills of how
• 38:05
  to interact for. It's preparing them for the
• 38:09
  future of what they're going to be.
• 38:12
  Yeah. Not just that, entertainment
• 38:15
  love. It.
• 38:19
  What else tell us about we're also.
• 38:21
  Yeah, go tell me. Oh, I wanna know.
• 38:23
  So all the children will have one to one iPad devices and
• 38:27
  that's really changed my outlook on education and really excites
• 38:31
  me. Not with so much noise around
• 38:35
  screen time and eyesights and mental health.
• 38:39
  But I think we need to be honest.
• 38:41
  AI is another one. Let's be honest.
• 38:44
  If we take all that away, children are still going to find
• 38:48
  those loopholes. They're still going to do it.
• 38:49
  They rebel. The children is what they do.
• 38:52
  But let's teach them how to use it properly.
• 38:56
  So we've devised curriculums here.
• 38:59
  Yes, they will do their maths. Yes, they will do their English.
• 39:02
  Yes, they'll do the science and they'll do digital skills,
• 39:05
  they'll do project based curriculums.
• 39:07
  So they're so they won't have to achieve a learning objective
• 39:12
  within an hour. They will have a weeks long
• 39:15
  project that will be relatable and that might be OK.
• 39:20
  After a week in PSHE, I'm going to set up a podcast with Jay and
• 39:25
  we are you're going to present and you're going to talk about
• 39:29
  safeguarding or the dangers of AI to you as make it relatable
• 39:35
  and purposeful. They will learn so much more
• 39:38
  than doing a circle time session talking about safety and online
• 39:43
  safety needs safety. So that's the approach in which
• 39:46
  we've talked. We've tapped into The other side
• 39:49
  of it is we've actually set up little areas around school and
• 39:54
  the environment where there's just two chairs and a little
• 39:57
  table, little reflection and breakout areas if you want.
• 40:02
  Because yes, all our children will have an EHCP.
• 40:05
  That's not because we want to narrow that, that's purely
• 40:08
  because of funding and being sustainable and able to run
• 40:12
  this. But we absolutely.
• 40:15
  The other side that really excites me, and particularly in
• 40:18
  Stoke on Trent at the moment, is the My Futures program that's
• 40:23
  coming into play. We're lucky enough here in the
• 40:27
  school that I'm in that we haven't got all that red tape of
• 40:31
  that schools and academies do have because we're an
• 40:33
  Independent School and it's providing a different pathway.
• 40:39
  So when I was in school, you did your GCS, ES, you stayed on a
• 40:43
  sixth form, you did you pass your A levels and then it was
• 40:46
  just talking to talking to the next stage.
• 40:48
  You went to university and then you got a job.
• 40:52
  If you didn't do that, then you were thick or you weren't the
• 40:55
  bright group or you weren't in the top sets.
• 41:00
  That needs to change, absolutely it needs to change and it really
• 41:04
  excites me that there are a group of CEOs in Stoke on Trent
• 41:07
  that are changing that pathway. Yes, they are providing that
• 41:10
  academic, traditional route, but they are also linking up with
• 41:14
  careers and businesses and industries.
• 41:16
  Yes, the NHS, yes, construction to highlight from the age of
• 41:22
  6-7. If you do art, then it can open
• 41:27
  up whole world of opportunities for you.
• 41:32
  But let's link those careers up. Let's talk about and use those
• 41:36
  vocabularies. That really excites me.
• 41:38
  If more schools did that and embraced even just that tiny,
• 41:42
  that tiny change you're talking about there, at least there's at
• 41:45
  least there's an outcome. You know something you said
• 41:48
  there I love and you mentioned about the iPads, right, and AI.
• 41:51
  OK, so let me let me touch on those two things.
• 41:54
  Earlier in the conversation, I said to you that I worry that
• 41:57
  when we give technology to children that they won't use it
• 42:02
  because they look different. The fact that you're giving
• 42:05
  everybody the same device, I love it.
• 42:08
  Amazing. I think what that enables you to
• 42:11
  do Apple education is fantastic, by the way, and and stuff
• 42:14
  they're doing at the moment is, is mind blowing, really is.
• 42:18
  But what that will do is it will give you, let's be honest, when
• 42:23
  they leave school, they're going to go into a job and use APC,
• 42:26
  right? So you're setting them straight
• 42:29
  away for that, which is great. You're not separating anybody
• 42:32
  who may want to use some separate text to speech, speech
• 42:34
  to text, whatever it may be, bigger captions, whatever it, it
• 42:37
  doesn't matter because they're all looking on the same device.
• 42:39
  No one feels any difference. That's the first thing.
• 42:41
  AIAI has changed my life. I don't, I, I, I wrote a post on
• 42:45
  LinkedIn this yesterday day before forgetting someone put a
• 42:48
  big post on about these are the changes in jobs and how it's
• 42:50
  going to affect people in this. So I put a post on this long
• 42:54
  saying I, I, I, I totally understand where you're coming
• 42:57
  from. However, have you thought about
• 43:00
  the neurodivergent community and how this has impacted us?
• 43:05
  Because finally I have a voice because now I can speaking to my
• 43:11
  phone, all these muddled thoughts in my brain and say,
• 43:15
  Hey, can you help me make sense of what I'm feeling here?
• 43:18
  And it comes bangers. Well, actually, this is a really
• 43:21
  good conversation piece here. Did you mean that That's the
• 43:24
  good I was looking for. So you're dead, right?
• 43:28
  AI is here to stay, like it or not.
• 43:31
  And what you're going to find by doing that I fail is you're
• 43:35
  going to get a load of kids which move on from your school
• 43:38
  and potentially are tech engineers, programmers, make
• 43:42
  their own company because that's what a lot of neuro divergent go
• 43:46
  on to do, become CEOs, CTOS, you know, So I think that's
• 43:52
  fantastic. One more question, do you accept
• 43:55
  old adults aged 54 to rejoin the school to start again?
• 44:00
  Honest to God, it brings me back a bit to this red tape that's
• 44:05
  in. So we currently sat in a
• 44:07
  building that's beautiful and ready.
• 44:09
  I could have 50 children and families waiting at that dough
• 44:13
  every day. However, it's a six minimum,
• 44:17
  well, six months process for the DfE to process this.
• 44:22
  And I'm like, but it's ready. The all the local authorities
• 44:27
  that are going to use us are absolutely singing our praises.
• 44:31
  They cannot wait. But you just put in this barrier
• 44:34
  and communication is so poor. I'm like, oh, it's another
• 44:39
  frustration. However, going on to, I think
• 44:43
  one of the things that as a send parent, it touches a bit on that
• 44:47
  AI. So I used AI with Annie.
• 44:51
  I think it's a game changer for her as a mum.
• 44:55
  She hates writing stories, hates English.
• 44:58
  However, I said to her, use AI, type in what you want to say.
• 45:04
  She's very creative. She typed in what she wanted to
• 45:08
  say. I had no punctuation in it.
• 45:10
  The spelling was not great. Then I said to, I said, and then
• 45:14
  just put at the end, rewrite this into a four page chapter
• 45:19
  book and let me read it to her. When she was like, yeah, that's
• 45:22
  why it was in my brain, man. And I said you can be an author
• 45:27
  where she's been told so many times that she can't do this,
• 45:31
  she can't do that. It's like you can do it isn't
• 45:35
  it's enabled that those little things.
• 45:38
  You know my, my, my wife loves AI and I'll tell you why.
• 45:41
  Because before AII used to send a text message.
• 45:44
  So if I was writing you a text message about the recording of
• 45:47
  the podcast, there would have been no, I'd about to say gem.
• 45:51
  How how do you spell timing? Or and she go so she I don't, I
• 45:56
  don't. My wife loves it.
• 45:57
  I've given my wife load to time back AI.
• 45:59
  She's she loves AI, you know? Yeah.
• 46:02
  But but this is true and you know, I always say to people
• 46:06
  that I have the most amazing pictures up here.
• 46:09
  Van Goghs Rembrandt Soon as they come out of here or my fingers
• 46:14
  are typing it, it either comes across really aggressive or or
• 46:18
  angry. Frustrated because I can't, I
• 46:21
  can't get out what I'm trying to, to, to get across to people,
• 46:26
  but I, I literally, I, I, I use speech to text on, on my phone.
• 46:31
  I talk into it and I go, listen. This is what I'm thinking.
• 46:34
  This is what, what I'm thinking about today emotionally.
• 46:36
  When I, when I put stuff on on, on posts on LinkedIn and
• 46:39
  Instagram, they're they're from, they're from here and they're
• 46:41
  from here. But I, I can't, I can't get it
• 46:44
  out. So I just blurb it all out and
• 46:46
  it and it, it makes this beautiful.
• 46:48
  Did you mean this? Yeah, that's what I meant.
• 46:50
  That's what I, that's what I was trying to say.
• 46:52
  So. And imagine you had those two
• 46:55
  wheels, Jay, in school, and everybody had them.
• 46:59
  I think my life would have been a lot different.
• 47:01
  I, I, you know, my son. I, you have spoken about my son,
• 47:04
  but he, he has an incredible, it's true.
• 47:08
  It's off the chart and he is systematically getting failed at
• 47:12
  school because they give him the ability to use tools in in his
• 47:18
  day-to-day learning. But he's got to the exams, GCS,
• 47:21
  ES and oh we can't provide you text to speech in the exam
• 47:25
  because we don't have the provision to do it.
• 47:26
  So here's 2 choices. He can fly back to the UK, go to
• 47:31
  a classroom and have someone sit with him.
• 47:35
  Which was why we took him out of the classroom in the 1st place
• 47:38
  because he wasn't, it just can't function in the classroom.
• 47:41
  Option two, we could find somewhere over here that could
• 47:44
  maybe accommodate him. Well, neither of those are going
• 47:47
  to work for him. You know, I think AI is, I think
• 47:52
  AI in education is going, it definitely needs to be
• 47:55
  controlled. There's no two ways about it.
• 47:57
  And there are some, some worries for me around data and this that
• 48:01
  near that. However, my, if that's my worry
• 48:04
  about data, this is my excitement and capability of
• 48:08
  what is going to happen. I think it's going to play a
• 48:10
  massive part, you know, and it's going to change the children in
• 48:14
  your school's lives because the fact you're embracing it and
• 48:17
  Apple embrace it. I'm so excited to see.
• 48:21
  I'd love, you know, I'm a Staffordshire lad, you know
• 48:24
  that. So I'd love next time we're back
• 48:26
  when you're up and running, I'd love to come and have a wander
• 48:29
  around and have a look around because I'm.
• 48:31
  And one question I ask everyone that comes on there here, are
• 48:36
  you OK with parents reaching out to you?
• 48:38
  Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, I think going back to AIJ,
• 48:43
  one of my fellow colleagues, George Barlow, and who's an
• 48:46
  incredible advocate for accessibility, inclusion and
• 48:50
  technology, he said to me, Kate, the biggest issue and concern
• 48:54
  that we've got is that education just puts their blinkers onto AI
• 48:59
  and they pretend it's, they know what's happening and do nothing
• 49:01
  about it. And that to me was like, yes,
• 49:05
  you're still right. Imagine if we did that to
• 49:06
  safeguard him. We wouldn't.
• 49:08
  And absolutely we've got to do the same and embrace it like we
• 49:11
  do with AI. And I just think as parents we
• 49:14
  need to do the same. Yeah, it's it's.
• 49:17
  It's don't be scared. No, you can't be the, the thing
• 49:22
  that frustrates me the most about this whole, you know,
• 49:26
  there's stuff going on at the moment about just pulling money
• 49:29
  out of the system for the disability student allowance
• 49:32
  scheme and things like that and the changes to send and all
• 49:35
  this. Let's just look at it from
• 49:39
  another way, right? Imagine if we give those kids
• 49:44
  the opportunity, we give those kids the technology and we give
• 49:48
  them the freedom to express themselves.
• 49:51
  Instead of me saying to you earlier, I really worry about
• 49:54
  the next 10 years. Imagine what those kids would go
• 49:58
  on to achieve in 10 years time. The UK would probably have a lot
• 50:03
  more millionaires, a lot more revenue, more successful
• 50:07
  businesses, more geniuses because they wouldn't have to
• 50:11
  muddle their way through the next 20-30 years of life trying
• 50:14
  to find what they are actually good at because the school would
• 50:17
  have already identified it. That's what I would like to see
• 50:19
  happen. I would like to see more of what
• 50:21
  you're doing at Edgewood and what's the what's what's, what's
• 50:26
  the future. So let's let you can be the
• 50:29
  magic man now. Wave the magic wand.
• 50:31
  Edgewood flies. What's what's what's what are
• 50:34
  your ideas going forward? I'd love and I'm going to go big
• 50:39
  an education system and the Department of Education to stop
• 50:43
  trying to fix and label children and students, but celebrate and
• 50:49
  enhance their capabilities. That for me is and I think, but
• 50:54
  that is so simple in in a phase like why have we got to fight
• 50:59
  for a private assessment, a label, a diagnosis.
• 51:02
  We know the barriers are there. Why have we got to arrive 500
• 51:05
  emails and a 10500 meetings. Let's just it's just delaying it
• 51:11
  like let's just support these students to be the best we can.
• 51:15
  Is I suppose to go back to those more days, Britain is best and
• 51:19
  things like Britain is so far behind.
• 51:22
  All those entrepreneurs that you talk about that are probably
• 51:25
  neurodiverse, that are British are moving away.
• 51:30
  Keep them here and there's a reason why.
• 51:33
  We would be will beat us because, OK, I would say there
• 51:37
  is an exception here. Australia, Australia really,
• 51:40
  really starting to tap into this.
• 51:42
  They've got some fantastic stuff going on over there.
• 51:46
  But we would be world beaters. We're a small country.
• 51:49
  We would we would have children and young adults coming out of
• 51:54
  school, college, university with these absolute crazy ideas about
• 51:59
  creating a business to, I don't know, make tables that could
• 52:03
  walk or whatever. But it would just you're dead
• 52:06
  right. The barriers and the blockers
• 52:09
  are the problem. And that's, that's what
• 52:11
  frustrates me and that's why I keep shouting and listen, I am
• 52:15
  your biggest, biggest champion. Thanks, Jay.
• 52:19
  And I will keep continuing to like and share everything you
• 52:22
  do. I wish you guys every success.
• 52:25
  I've got one more question and it's a personal one for me.
• 52:30
  And it's why the podcast is called what it is.
• 52:33
  But when I say to you, the sentence thick, no more what?
• 52:38
  What does that mean to you? I think we don't use the word
• 52:48
  thick in education, but if we just replaced it, so have we
• 52:55
  replaced it with a label and a title that sounds a bit nicer
• 53:00
  than thick because we're still treating these children the
• 53:04
  same. So I think thick no more is
• 53:09
  probably and he used this word this week.
• 53:15
  She just she said I feel invisible.
• 53:20
  So if we're still, we're still there still stands thick no
• 53:24
  more. It is still people are still
• 53:27
  treated in that way. And I'm sorry to finish on a sad
• 53:33
  note, but it's almost we're still invisible.
• 53:36
  I think is is probably could be another title to your podcast
• 53:42
  because unfortunately problem is still there and we need to stop
• 53:47
  saying to these children what is wrong with this child rather
• 53:52
  than how can we fix them. We need to start challenging and
• 53:57
  being brave into OK, as an educator and facilitator, what
• 54:02
  can I provide in order for this to help them succeed?
• 54:07
  We shouldn't try to fix them into a system that is so
• 54:13
  outdated. It doesn't.
• 54:15
  Why does it have to be something wrong?
• 54:18
  I filled out so many NHS questionnaires and tell me why
• 54:21
  does it have to be something that's so wrong?
• 54:23
  Why? Like why is it always wrong?
• 54:25
  Why can't it be like what can they do?
• 54:28
  But yeah, I think thick no more, I think is probably we are still
• 54:34
  yeah. I think you might be right,
• 54:36
  unfortunately. I'll give you I'll give you
• 54:37
  something to say to to Annie. And ironically, it's the same
• 54:42
  guy. And maybe you should listen to
• 54:44
  that podcast or it's the same guy, John O'Shea from Australia.
• 54:48
  He told me that he doesn't worry.
• 54:52
  He hates the word superpower because he said you can spend
• 54:54
  your entire life trying to find what it is.
• 54:57
  He said the battle is managing the kryptonite and then it's the
• 55:03
  kryptonite and you're, you're a game changer.
• 55:07
  And that's if, if I could tell any child right now who feels
• 55:10
  invisible, that will be my message.
• 55:13
  Don't worry about about all the rubbish.
• 55:15
  Don't worry about all the all the stuff that people put in
• 55:18
  front of you. You just concentrate on, on what
• 55:20
  you know and what you can do. And that's, that's what's
• 55:24
  important. Well, listen, I hope, I hope in
• 55:27
  10 years time, you and I are having a different conversation.
• 55:29
  I really do. And I'd love to have you back.
• 55:32
  On we can have those dreams, Jay.
• 55:35
  Wow. Hey, listen, you never know.
• 55:37
  You never know dreams, Gabriel. So let's, let's let's put some
• 55:40
  time back in when you're up and running and maybe we can tell
• 55:44
  some success stories and we can put a happier note for this.
• 55:48
  But listen, Kate, honestly, thank you.
• 55:50
  I know your time is so precious. You're an amazing person, a
• 55:54
  wonderful mum, an amazing head teacher and may your school go
• 55:58
  on to do amazing things. I am fully behind you.
• 56:01
  Thank you so much for joining me on the podcast today.
• 56:03
  Thank you.