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Constitutionally Incapable of Being Honest_ · Not a Doorknob

• 0:00
  Hey, welcome back to The Big Book Deep Dive here on Progress and Perfection. You can find more information on our website. You can contact us. All the links for that will be in the description below. My name is Eamon.
• 0:10
  I'm joined by my good friend, John. Here we go. How do you feel about, uh, I mean, you have a rich history with how it works. It's probably, I don't know, I would say the most familiar chunk of text. For sure.
• 0:27
  Not the whole chapter, but certainly the initial part of it, uh, in the whole book. Yeah. Uh, what do you see as your relationship with the beginning of chapter five, how it works?
• 0:40
  So with the beginning, it almost becomes... I- i- it's gonna be good to read through it in detail together and talk about it, because I've heard it so many times that it's just become like John 3:16.
• 0:53
  It's like, "What does this even mean anymore?" [laughs] Yeah, yeah. Um, but for the purposes of our discussion, this is, like, the meat and potatoes in a nutshell. Mm-hmm. Um, and it's, it's interesting
• 1:09
  that it's placed here. It's like, okay, we just get done with the first two, basically two steps, you know, over the last several chapters. We're on page 58. Right.
• 1:21
  And now we're just gonna throw everything, like, "Oh, by the way, here's where we're going with it." Mm-hmm. "This is where we're gonna land the plane, with these 12 things."
• 1:29
  I know we've talked about two so far, but this is, like, the breakdown. Right. Um, and that covers-- and that may be all we cover today. I don't know. We'll see how it goes, but that covers, like, the first three pages.
• 1:40
  Yeah. The reading that we read, that traditionally a lot of meetings will read- Right... at the beginning of, of every, every meeting. Right. And then it goes into step three, and then four. Right.
• 1:53
  And for me, like, this is ahead of today. We won't get to it. The most iconic parts of the chapter are equally as memorable to me when it starts talking about kind of the causes and conditions of, of our drinking.
• 2:09
  Mm-hmm. When it goes into, "Hey, actually, the drinking, the drugs, those are not the problem." Mm-hmm. Like, they were a problem, but they were really the symptom. Yeah. And it goes into all the selfishness stuff. Yeah.
• 2:20
  Right. Right. Um, and so I, I kinda... We probably will, I don't know what you think, kind of, I think we'll do it in three sections. Yeah. Like this first little bit, and then we'll have the step three section. Right.
• 2:33
  And then we'll hop into, like, the step four with the selfishness section. Yeah, yeah. No, I agree. Uh, I agree, and I think the, um,
• 2:42
  the placement, I was thinking about it earlier today, but, like, the placement's interesting to me simply because it, like, opens up this opportunity to begin to think about God as a higher power,
• 2:55
  um, without necessarily implementing into it the strategy or necessity of God as in the Creator or, or the Christian God. Mm-hmm. Um, you know, and I think, like, maybe there's...
• 3:11
  Well, not maybe, but there's purpose behind spending that amount of time really digesting through those first two steps, because, like, I guess the hope is,
• 3:23
  given that amount of time, given that amount of exploration and examination, when you really... I don't know. To me, the meat and potatoes really starts with step three and that st- that third step prayer.
• 3:35
  When you're praying that third step prayer, I guess the hope is, you know, when you're saying, "I offer myself to you to build with me and to do with me as you will," um, man, that's a big step, like we've talked about.
• 3:46
  Mm-hmm. Just the trust and, and confidence you have to have in what you're doing. I don't think you can pray that prayer, um, lightly. Mm-mm. Those that do don't usually start their fourth step. Yes.
• 4:04
  Correct. You know? Correct. I mean, three is kinda the end of the beginning. Mm-hmm. It's like we've got these formative and necessarily lengthy explanations of one, and especially two- Mm-hmm...
• 4:17
  which the last couple weeks drove home the point, kinda the point of that last chapter to me was, one of them at least, lack of power. Mm-hmm. That's what it said. Right. Lack of power, that's a dilemma. Yeah.
• 4:27
  And then we move into, all right, so we gotta find this, to your point, power greater than ourselves. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. And then take that action. Yeah. Right. Like, are we gonna man up and do that or, you know- Right.
• 4:40
  Right... we gonna keep, keep trying it our own way? W- w- we gonna call it a doorknob? [laughs] You know, are we gonna keep it as a doorknob? Are we gonna turn our will and our lives over to the care of the doorknob?
• 4:51
  Right. Right. You know? How's that gonna work? Are we going to take that leap of faith and allow God to be who he says he is? Mm-hmm. You know, and I think that's the... I don't know.
• 5:04
  That's why the third step prayer has always been just really impactful and just this, it's drilled in my head. Like- Yeah...
• 5:11
  you know, it's just this permanent reminder of what I'm, the posture I'm supposed to be having on a daily basis. Mm-hmm. Do I have that posture every day? Oh. No. No. Progress, not perfection. Yeah.
• 5:24
  Or progress and perfection, I guess, would be the, uh... [laughs] In, in, in the terms that they speak- Yes... like, spirit, we often leave out the, uh, qualifiers. Mm-hmm. Spiritual progress- Right...
• 5:35
  not, not spiritual perfection- Yeah... is what the intent was of, was when they wrote that part of the book. Mm-hmm. And it's so true. Yeah. Like, no, we, we can't hit this all the time. Right.
• 5:46
  But we, we damn sure need to aspire to it. But we try. Right. We try. We try. Mm-hmm. You can't hit those six-minute miles all the time. [laughs] You know, but you're gonna try. You can do it a lot, though.
• 5:55
  But you're gonna try. [laughs] You do it more than you think, right? That's right. All right, open us up, brother. All right. Chapter five, how it works, page 58.
• 6:03
  "Rarely have we seen a person fail who's thoroughly followed our path." Those who don't recover are people who cannot or will not completely give themselves to this simple program.
• 6:17
  Usually men and women who are constitutionally incapable of being honest with themselves. There are such unfortunates. They are not at fault. They seem to have been born that way.
• 6:28
  They're naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty. Their chances are less than average.
• 6:38
  There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest. So what do they describe in-- Who are they describing
• 6:50
  when it says they are not at fault, they seem to have been born that way, they are naturally incapable of grasping and developing a manner of living which demands rigorous honesty? You know, that's a good question.
• 7:05
  That's a dangerous question. Uh, because this is where people can kinda skirt out of doing some of this honest work. Uh, you know, I've, I've, I've met some people, you know, in and out of AA that have just been...
• 7:23
  I mean, you know the, the type, the BS'ers. They, you know, they believe the lies that are coming out of their lips, and to me, that's the type of person that I, I kind of conceptualize when I read stuff like this. Yeah.
• 7:35
  And frankly, I don't understand that person. When, uh, you, you, you've told lies so much and, and you're, you're literally living...
• 7:45
  I'm thinking of a dude I met at Cups like years ago, one of the patio junkies just hanging out all the time, and you know, I forget his name, but the joker is just full of it. [laughs] Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm.
• 7:58
  And, um, and so, so there's, there's two points to that. It's like, one, I don't, I don't know. I'd love to hear your professional opinion 'cause I'm sure you've met some.
• 8:08
  But two, the good news is some of them do recover. Mm. Like, you do see what it talks about of people turning a corner at some point- Mm... of getting to a point of being, I guess, beaten- Mm...
• 8:20
  into a state of reasonableness. Yeah. Um, what, what do you think- Yeah... what is your take on that? So my first, my first, my first thought there is, like, it's this designation
• 8:35
  or, or maybe this proclamation that there are, in fact, there's wheat and there's chaff. There are wolves and there are sheep. Um, and of course, it's not saying it in the spiritual terms, so I'm not necessarily- Mm...
• 8:51
  implying that it's salvation by, attached to salvation by any means. But it's sort of them coming out and saying there, there are two types of people. There are people who can recover,
• 9:03
  and there are people who cannot recover. Mm. That idea, it's not their fault that they can't recover, so we're not casting blame on them per se, but they literally fundamentally cannot grasp what rigorous honesty means.
• 9:18
  Mm. Um, and I mean, like, you know, if you really get down to it, and it doesn't mean that all narcissists or sociopaths are incapable of recovery.
• 9:29
  But it's kind of like what you're talking about there, somebody that has just built their foundation upon, like, lies and deceit and manipulation and coercion- Mm... and game theory. Uh,
• 9:42
  those types of narcissists are constitutionally incapable of grasping the concept of rigorous honesty. Mm.
• 9:50
  Because to be rigorous, rigorously honest with themselves puts them at this perceived risk of vulnerability, which they can't tolerate, which they try to mask at all costs. Now, the great news here
• 10:03
  is that, like, that's maybe, like, two to 4% of the population, and so their description, I think, is, is super accurate, and I don't think that's by accident- Mm...
• 10:17
  considering the people that, that they were influenced by. I think they were probably aware of that. That a, a vast majority of people can and, and do, can and do get sober when they apply the principles of this program.
• 10:33
  But there are this small percent of people who are literally constitutionally incapable of grasping what this book is talking about. Here's the big disclaimer, though. We don't know who those people are. Yeah, right.
• 10:48
  So we're not in the position to sit in judgment as to whether or not this person can or can't get sober.
• 10:55
  Our job is, I mean, we'll get to it, but our job is step 12, to carry this message to other alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs- Yeah... in the hope that, yes, this person grasps it. Yeah.
• 11:07
  So- We, we try to carry it, right? Correct. That doesn't mean it's gonna stick- Right... or take. Doesn't mean that we're gonna see it sticking or taking- Right... immediately. Right. Right.
• 11:15
  But yeah, it's still, regardless, it's our duty to not perceive this poor person as being constitutionally incapable. Mm-hmm. That will play out in their, their own lives, you know?
• 11:26
  So, like, our job is to give them the message regardless. But that's my, that's my hot take on that one, dude. Well, and, and you see me stumbling around it 'cause it's so hard for me to wrap my head around- Mm-hmm...
• 11:39
  anybody not being able to turn that corner. Right. Right. Like- Right... uh, there's, there's, like, this baseline level of optimism I have that's like, "Ugh." So, but how? Right. Why? Right. Why is that? Right.
• 11:52
  But I love you for it. [laughs] Right. I love you for it. Right. I mean, for real. Like, we need, we need people like you in the world. Yeah. You know, because, like,
• 12:02
  I mean, I think partly it's my profession, I just become so jaded- Sure... you know, with just failures- Mm... and just catastrophic failure after catastrophic failure. Um-
• 12:14
  But I think your attitude is very hopeful, and your attitude is very contagious. And I think your attitude and your posture allows you to see the opportunity in more people- Mm... than perhaps I can see,
• 12:31
  if we're just honest. Well, and, and what I do is I end up going back to the very first sentence, and I default to, "Rarely have we seen a person fail who's thoroughly followed our path." Mm-hmm.
• 12:41
  So hey, if you can just, Person X, Y, Z- Mm... Joe over here, if you can just thoroughly follow this path, even though you may not believe- Yeah... then- Right. Right... perhaps it works. Right. Perhaps it can work.
• 12:56
  Right. Perhaps that mind can be changed. And even despite evidence to the contrary- Mm... 'cause I've worked with people- Mm... that have perhaps fit the bill of being constitutionally incapable. Right.
• 13:07
  And I've witnessed me beating my head against the wall more than they are- Mm-hmm... um, to, to no avail, to no perceived avail. Sure. Yeah. Um- Yeah. Well, and just keep in mind, like, what we're talking about
• 13:21
  is maybe two people out of 100. Yeah. It, it really is- It's rare... a very, very rare thing. If you're thorough- Mm-hmm... it's super rare. Mm. I mean, it's two out of 100.
• 13:31
  You extrapolate that to whatever, 1,000, you're only talking about, what, 10 people? Yeah. 20 people? Yeah, not much. It's not very many. You know what I'm saying? So, like, it, it, yeah, I think the,
• 13:45
  the, the correct posture is one of, like, um, having the expectation that they can in fact grasp it. All right, two more things on this rich first paragraph. Yes, please.
• 13:57
  What about this grave emotional and mental disorder sufferer? Mm-hmm. I don't know what that is. Well, so, um- They're just covering their bases here? Let's see.
• 14:10
  In other words- "Their chances are less than aver- There are those, too, who suffer from grave emotional and mental disorders, but many of them do recover if they have the capacity to be honest."
• 14:17
  So again, I think the clarifier in there is, like, many of them do recover- Mm... if they have the capacity to be honest. And yeah, I think they're just covering their bases there. Um,
• 14:29
  because if you think about, like, what a grave, uh, mental disorder is,
• 14:37
  when this book was written, what they're talking about is more than likely, uh, somebody with, like, an IQ of, like, 40. Okay. You know, somebody that is just, i- is literally just, like, so incapacitated- Mm-hmm...
• 14:55
  um, that they can't grasp even, you know, they can't really grasp much of anything. Yeah. They're just barely there. Right. Barely hanging. Right. And so I think, like, that's a way to cover their base.
• 15:07
  But then also, like, I mean, the mental disorder can be narcissism. I mean, that's a mental disorder- Mm. Mm-hmm... you know, that could certainly limit your chances of grasping. Mm-hmm. You know?
• 15:18
  But yeah, I think it's a base cover. Okay. And what, where's the line between thoroughly following our path- [laughs] Good one. Great... and just following it- [laughs] Yeah... enough? [laughs] Yeah. Well,
• 15:35
  there's "thoroughly followed our path," and it's followed up with "completely give themselves to this simple program." Yeah, yeah. You know, so where's the line? I don't know. I guess, I don't know. Sobriety's the line?
• 15:50
  Yeah. I don't know. Yeah. You know, I don't, I don't know what that... I mean, thoroughly implies, thoroughly and completely- The whole thing... implies everything. The, and the thing being the steps to me.
• 16:05
  The, correct, the thing being the steps. Yeah. Um, and, I mean, as we're going to find out, it starts with this very poignant declaration- Hmm... of whose will is in charge,
• 16:21
  which to your point earlier, like, you ain't gonna get to step four if you balk at step three. Yeah. You know? So I think, like, when they talk about thorough, thoroughly and completely, it, it speaks to readiness. Mm.
• 16:33
  You know, are you ready? Are you ready to do this? Are you ready to give up? Are you ready to turn yourself over? You know, not to, let's be clear,
• 16:44
  not to the control of Alcoholics Anonymous, not over to the control of your sponsor. Mm-hmm. But are you, are you ready? Are you ready to completely give yourself over to the will of God? That's a big step.
• 16:59
  That's a big deal. But I don't know how you give of yourself partly and think you're gonna do well.
• 17:06
  It, it almost reminds me of, you know, the, you've heard people ask, "Well, how many meetings do I need to go to to stay sober?"
• 17:14
  And of course, the old-timer's witty response is, "Well, just keep cutting back until you get drunk, and that was too few." [laughs] Mm-hmm. Right. It's like, there's not really an answer. Right, right.
• 17:24
  But, you know, you kind of know, am I doing enough? Mm-hmm. Am I doing the whole thing? Yeah. Am I doing what's sufficient? Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I mean, I've got, I've got a couple of, like,
• 17:35
  workbooks that help people, uh, work through the steps. Mm-hmm. And, uh, I mean, most of it is like a checklist. Yeah. And it just speaks to that thorough and completeness of this text as a program- Mm-hmm...
• 17:52
  and your ability to thoroughly and completely digest it all and accomplish it all. You know, it's not, I don't know, it's not supposed to be rules. Mm. It's supposed to be suggestions.
• 18:09
  Um, but they're, like, necessary suggestions, you know? [laughs] Yeah. Like, I don't know. Yeah. It's almost, I don't know. Maybe s- I don't know. What do you think about that?
• 18:19
  Well, well, and in that sense, the, the form does not necessarily need to take precedent over the, the substance of the step. And yes, and I've got them too, and, and we'll link them.
• 18:31
  You know, we can kind of pull together some of the material and start linking that in the description for, like, practical step working tools. Mm-hmm. But there's a bunch of them. Mm-hmm. Right, right.
• 18:39
  And there's, there's time-tested ones. Most of them look very similar. Mm-hmm. The, the thrust is the same across the board. Mm-hmm. Different sponsors have different ways of doing things quickly or slowly. Mm-hmm.
• 18:51
  I've changed my ways over the years of doing quickly and slowly and, and this, that, and the other. But I think it's, it's more to the theme of what we're doing. Yeah. Are we, are we really, um...
• 19:04
  I can't getting to the point of saying, "I can't, he can. I think I'll let him." Mm-hmm. And taking some action. Mm-hmm. One, two, three, here we go. Mm-hmm.
• 19:11
  Um, or are we just dilly-dallying around in, in pomp and circumstance? Yeah. Yeah. Yep. Good. All right. [clears throat] Second paragraph. How about that?
• 19:23
  [laughs] "Our stories disclose, in a general way, what we used to be like, what happened, and what we are like now.
• 19:34
  If you have decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it, then you're ready to take certain steps. At some of these, we balked.
• 19:44
  We thought we could find an easier, softer way, but we could not. With all the earnestness at our command, we beg of you to be fearless and thorough from the very start.
• 19:55
  Some of us have tried to hold on to our old ideas, and the result was nil until we let go absolutely." So how do we... Let's talk about this- Mm-hmm... fearless and thoroughness from the very start. Mm-hmm.
• 20:07
  You know, we've touched on thoroughness. Mm-hmm. What, what about the... H- how do we get to a- Yeah... sufficient state of fearlessness? Yeah. Do you see that as a requirement here? What is that all about? Uh, well,
• 20:21
  it's this idea, like, I talk about this a lot with people, but I think it's this recognition of maybe the, the snakes that are inside of you and coming to the realization that you're just full of them.
• 20:38
  And I think the only way to work through them is to recognize and to admit that they're there, and that can be a scary proposition. Mm-hmm. You know, because you've become used to them.
• 20:48
  You know, you can use them to your advantage, especially in the midst of your addiction. Um, you know, but I think, like, the fearless piece is almost a working out. You, you have to know what you're afraid of- Yeah...
• 21:02
  to become fearless. And so I think that's where step four can really help out in beginning to identify the character defects,
• 21:12
  the fears, you know, that have been sort of behind the, the facade of strength or power or invincibility. Um, and I think, I, I think once you begin to recognize what those fears are, you can finally deal with them.
• 21:28
  But until you, but until you see them, you can't. Mm. And they're gonna continue to inhibit your ability to get sober and to get clean. If I can't acknowledge that I'm insecure,
• 21:41
  I'm never gonna get clean and sober, you know?
• 21:45
  But I've got to be able to recognize what that fear is within me and how that fear manifests itself, that snake that's inside of me, and be willing to address it and, like, pull it out and then look at it and deal with it, but that takes guts.
• 21:58
  And in, in that, I think you see the honesty being the real legwork. 100%. You know, 'cause you, like what you're saying, you gotta be, you gotta figure out how to be honest about this to bring it into the light.
• 22:11
  That's right. And that is, that's, that's to me the fearless part of like, okay. For sure. Well, it's scary, but by golly. [laughs] Gotta do it. Here we go. I've gotta deal with this. Yeah, yeah. I've known it's there.
• 22:22
  Yeah. I haven't been able to name it for so long. I've been toying around with it and playing around with it. Mm-hmm. And I'm, you know, been bitten by it for freaking every day for however many years now. Mm-hmm.
• 22:33
  But I'm finally ready to recognize it and call it what it is- Yeah... and deal with it. Yeah. You know? But, I mean, like, snakes are scary, bro. They are. That's a built-in reflex we have. Mm-hmm.
• 22:45
  It's one of the few that we've got, but like- Mm-hmm... that sucker's drilled into our brain for good reason. Anything else on that little section for you? Um,
• 22:57
  I mean, you know, I think it's worth, like, reiterating there, "Some of us have tried to hold onto our old ideas." Hmm. "The result was nil." I mean, how many times have you seen people come in
• 23:08
  to the rooms and, and they're gonna cling to this idea of like, and don't hear me wrong, but like, "Faith is gonna get me through." Mm-hmm.
• 23:17
  You know, or, "Prayer is gonna get me through," this old idea of what the solution is. Uh- The half me- half measures- Yeah... in some ways. Good half measure. Yeah, yeah. Good half measure. And all good stuff.
• 23:28
  Prayer's good. Yep. Love prayer. Yep. Need to pray. Um, but is that gonna do it? Yeah. It hasn't done it so far. Yeah. So at some point you've got to let go of that. And I think that goes back to our thoroughness piece.
• 23:41
  Yeah. It's like, okay, well, let's just go ahead and make sure. Right. Better to overstep that- That-... than to, uh, risk coming up short. That's right. That's right. All right. "Remember that we deal with alcohol.
• 23:56
  Cunning, baffling, powerful. Without help, it is too much for us. But there is one who has all power. That one is God. May you find Him now. Half measures availed us nothing. We stood at the turning point.
• 24:12
  We asked His protection and care with complete abandon. And here are the steps we took, which are suggested," they are suggestions, "as a program of recovery." One.
• 24:25
  "We admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable." Two. "Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." Three
• 24:38
  Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him. Four Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
• 24:50
  Five Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs. Six Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character. Seven Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
• 25:07
  Eight Made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all. Nine Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
• 25:20
  10 Continued to take personal inventory and when we were wrong promptly admitted it.
• 25:26
  11 Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
• 25:38
  12 Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs. Many of us ex- exclaimed, "What an order."
• 25:54
  "What an order." "I can't go through with it." "Can't go through with it." Don't be discouraged. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence to these principles. We're not saints.
• 26:07
  The point is that we're willing to grow along spiritual lines. The principles we have set down are guides to progress. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection. Uh, w- w- which, which...
• 26:23
  Uh, I'll follow up there with the- [clears throat]... the paragraph after the steps. Just briefly, which step caused you the biggest problem? What was the hardest one for you to get through? I, I started balking at four.
• 26:38
  Uh, you know, the, the two common areas where people start putting the brakes on, four and nine. It's like, we gotta actually do something, or five and nine if you wanna put it that way.
• 26:49
  Um, but I, I really didn't stand still too long because I was, uh... I, I think I was just afraid of disappointing my sponsor, too, at the same time.
• 27:00
  And he gave me, he gave me, like, a couple weeks and I, you know, screwed around, didn't do any writing. And I'd say, "Well, I, I need another week." He said, "No, we're gonna do it on Saturday, so get it done."
• 27:13
  [laughs] Yeah. Yeah. And man, I just got it done. Um, but the prospect of this moral inventory, I mean, that's a scary prospect. Yeah. It sounds scary, and hairy, and big, and yucky and, and it is. Yeah.
• 27:29
  Uh, but it's also, like, not as big as, as, as our mind can make it either. Right. Right. And I found that to be true once I actually just did it.
• 27:39
  Like, the anticipation was worse than the participation- Yeah, for sure... by far. For sure. Um, you mentioned nine. Why'd you mention nine? Well, we gotta actually go and make amends. Um,
• 27:51
  m- I don't like saying I'm sorry. I don't like dragging up the past. Um, I'm real grateful I got sober young- Yeah... 'cause I didn't have a lot.
• 28:00
  I didn't have a lot of life, period, for a fourth and fifth step, and I didn't have a lot of amends relative to others- Yeah... for a ninth step. Yeah. Um, but it was still a Band-Aid I didn't wanna pull off. Yeah, yeah.
• 28:12
  Just had to get done. Yeah. Yeah, I can remember the first time I did a fourth step. Yeah, I just didn't take it seriously. I was putting down things like McDonald's
• 28:23
  and Taco Bell because, like, they used, like, fake meat. Oh, yes. You know, I was just being- I remember writing stuff like that down. Yeah, I was just being dumb. [laughs] You know?
• 28:33
  Like, I did not grasp the seriousness of it. The library. Right. [laughs] You know, because, like, oh, what about institutions at the end? Yeah. So then it was, like, the freaking library, yeah, the principal.
• 28:44
  You know, just being, not taking it seriously. Yeah. Uh, and then I can remember doing it with, um, who I would say my sponsor was, uh, and it had a whole different flavor to it. Mm.
• 28:58
  You know, it was sort of this, um, realization that, no, man, if I wanna get through this thing in one piece, I need to take this process a little bit more seriously. Mm-hmm.
• 29:09
  And to your point, coming to grips with, like... I mean, for me, it was hard to make a moral inventory because it was like, I'd rather talk about McDonald's- Mm-hmm... than some of the people I fucked over. Um- Yeah...
• 29:20
  you know, and having to remember all that stuff was just like, "Oh my God." Mm. You know? "This was awful." So honestly, like, I was, I was jazzed to do my fifth step- Mm... 'cause I was sick of sitting in it.
• 29:34
  Get past it. Yeah. Yeah. I was like, "Bro, I need somebody to help carry this stuff with me." Mm. You know? And I was so fortunate to have a sponsor who was willing to do that. Mm-hmm.
• 29:44
  Somebody that I really trusted and, and, you know, didn't balk at the prospects of some of the things that I was telling him. Mm-hmm. Um, but yeah, I mean, I'm with you even at, at step nine.
• 29:55
  I mean, it's, it's one thing to deal with the shame, uh, with our sponsor. It's another to, [laughs] to have this sort of like, to bring that shame out into the public. Yeah. Um, but I don't know.
• 30:10
  We'll get to it later on. More times than not, though, when I would make amends with people, one, I was either met with, "Huh?" Mm-hmm. [laughs] "I don't even remember that," you know? Mm.
• 30:20
  Which was like, "Okay, well, that's good." Or, "Brother, I forgave you for that, you know, 10 years ago." Mm, mm-hmm. You know? So, but I'm with you on that. Uh, okay, so what about this idea of progress here?
• 30:35
  You know, we kind of hinted at it earlier. No one among us has been able to maintain anything like perfect adherence. We claim spiritual progress rather than spiritual perfection. Why is that so important?
• 30:47
  Well, i- if, if, if we thought we had to do it perfect, it would be a lot easier to drop out at the first sign of, "Well, I screwed up." Mm. "I failed this test. Here's another failure."
• 31:00
  Uh, you know, "I guess this isn't for me." So it's both extremely important to me to, to reiterate this- Mm... that these are spiritual steps that we're doing.
• 31:11
  Like, this is a spiritual pro- process that we're going through, and we are trying to turn our life and our will over to the care of God- Mm... the maker of everything. Right.
• 31:25
  And turn back to Him, for many of us, and then go through this healing and reparation process so that we can live one day at a time- Mm... according to His will, not according to ours.
• 31:38
  So it's like a, this is kind of a big deal, right? Yeah. Yeah. And, and it needs to be propped up on a pedestal to, uh, to, to a high degree so that we know this is serious. Right. Right. However,
• 31:52
  we should be reminded and comforted by the fact that it is an ideal. Mm-hmm. And, and each step, you know, we can't do these perfectly. Right.
• 32:01
  The fourth step and the fifth step I did, you know, 21 years ago, you know, I left stuff out. I, I can't remember everything. I, I still don't remember everything. Mm-hmm.
• 32:12
  Even with that, like I said, I was young when I got sober, even for that small period. Yeah. There's no such thing as perfection. Right. And so we should allow ourselves some of the grace that is freely given- Mm-hmm...
• 32:26
  provided- Yeah... we're, we're taking the steps and, and honestly, again, honestly, uh, trying to do it as- Right... thoroughly as we can. Right. Yeah. And I, and I think, like, uh, I think that's 100% percent right.
• 32:39
  The other thing that it also, [sighs] i- I guess, like, encourages us not to do is to fake it. Mm-hmm.
• 32:47
  Because if the goal is, like, perfection, how many of us would be in this ballpark where we're just gonna fake perfection just to get through the next thing? That's a good point. You know? Yeah.
• 32:58
  Um, and so it's almost like freedom on both ends of it, where we- Yeah... get to, like, be, um... [tsks] I don't know. We don't have to be afraid to fail. Back to the fearless piece. Mm.
• 33:11
  Like, we don't have to be afraid to fail at it, because it is about, like you said, this, this, this process that's full of grace. Um,
• 33:20
  and it's not something that, like, I don't know how you feel about this, but, like, you don't go through the steps one time. You know, we're working the steps on, like, a daily basis- Mm... in one form or another. Yeah.
• 33:31
  So we're always having this opportunity to continue to grow. Um, you know, if it was a, if it was a perfection thing, it'd be a one-and-done thing, and like, "Well, I did it perfectly, so I don't need anything else."
• 33:41
  Mm-hmm. You know? So. No, I, and I agree with that. You know, it's, it's a progressive thing that we, you know, we're done when we die, right? Right. And hopefully it's up and to the right, that progress over time. And
• 33:56
  you zoom in and there's gonna be peaks and valleys, but- Yeah... um, yeah. All right, uh, last little bit here.
• 34:03
  "Our description of the alcoholic, the chapter to the agnostic, and our personal adventures before and after make clear three pertinent ideas." A "That we were alcoholic and could not manage our own lives."
• 34:19
  B "Probably no human power could have relieved our alcoholism." C "That God could and would if He were sought." If He were sought.
• 34:28
  And so it closes, and I maybe should have read that earlier, that's kind of the close of that reading portion that we have in most meetings. Yeah. It closes with kind of a one, two, three shot again. Yep. Yep.
• 34:41
  Like, hey, this, to, to just drill it home, this is really the core of it. You know, we, we are screwed here. We're, we're alcoholic. We've crossed that line, and we can't manage things ourselves.
• 34:53
  Probably no human power could have relieved this, and so we're left back at that proposition of lack of power was our dilemma. Yep. Period. Yep. Period. Yep. If it wasn't, we wouldn't be in this predicament. Mm.
• 35:06
  It'd be a different predicament, but- Right. Right... um. Well, and what a glorious promise that C is. Yeah. Could and would. Yeah, He can and He will. And, uh- If He were sought...
• 35:21
  and, and, you know, we'll talk about three, step three next time, but just to, to preview it, I'll read the step, "Made a decision- Mm... to turn our will and lives over to the care of God as we understood Him."
• 35:34
  And three things to point out there. Our will and our lives was explained to me, uh, at one point as our thoughts and our actions, so, like, everything. This is what I'm doing, what I'm thinking. Mm.
• 35:47
  I'm turning and committing both of those things. Yeah. I do have control over what I think. Maybe not every fleeting thought, but- Mm-hmm... I'm turning that over. Yeah.
• 35:56
  And then the other point is the fact that He cares. Mm. You know, to the care of God. Mm. Right. And that this is not- Mm... to our previous couple discussions, this is not a, um, an inert being that's just- Right...
• 36:09
  out there, like... It's not a doorknob. It's not a doorknob. [laughs] He cares. [laughs] He really does. Yeah. Um, and thank God he does. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, I think that's great.
• 36:21
  Yeah, I think that's a, that's a beautiful... That always stuck with me, I mean, maybe 'cause it was the last thing we always say at meetings. Mm-hmm. But, like, that idea that God can and will- Mm-hmm... if we seek Him.
• 36:34
  Yeah. And kind of goes back to the question I posed earlier. Okay, what's, how much is thoroughly? Mm. How much seeking is enough? Mm-hmm.
• 36:46
  Like, what do we have to do to have sought Him sufficiently- To have been provided with this way out. Mm-hmm. And I, and I think that's not... I think it's another unanswerable, but you kinda know when you're doing it.
• 36:58
  Yeah. You know? Right, right, right. Well, like, to, to stack on to the idea of perfection, I mean, isn't that seeking something that we have to do on a daily basis? Mm-hmm.
• 37:10
  You know, isn't that why we have quiet times, and we read the Word, and we have devotionals? 'Cause we are constantly seeking, uh, for His will- Yeah... to be present in our lives, you know?
• 37:21
  So, like, I, I think that's a, an important point, and we'll, I guess we'll drill down on it next time with step three, but that it's a, it's a constant process. It's not a one and done- Mm-hmm...
• 37:34
  seeking, "Oh, look, I found Him." [laughs] You know, "Where's Waldo?" Check. There he is. Check. Bing, next page. Next page. Right? Nah, it's this constant seeking, uh, and longing after the Lord that I think He does...
• 37:47
  I mean, it's a mystery, but, like, He produces that in our hearts- Mm-hmm... and creates that longing. Um, I don't know. I think that's part of the mystery to it.
• 37:59
  But yeah, the seeking after I think is something that doesn't stop. Well, and, and we try to plant that in people in recovery, in AA, with, we call it the basics of AA, and we've talked about that before.
• 38:11
  Like, getting ingrained in, into us these little spiritual habits- Right... these little nuggets that were nonexistent. And okay, I'm gonna start praying, even if it's five-second prayer, prayer every morning and night.
• 38:25
  Right. Reading spiritual literature- Right... seeking the Lord. Um, you know, these are age-old, time-tested. It's, you know, in, in Christianity, it's just the spiritual disciplines. Right.
• 38:36
  You know, throw fasting in there. We never do that, talk about that in AA, but it's, it's the same type of spiritual disciplines- Right... that we never arrive at a result of them.
• 38:47
  Rather, our lives hopefully begin to reflect the product of them. Mm. Um, and, and it changes over time. Right. And we grow with it over time. Yeah. I know I have- Yeah... in, in different seasons- Yeah...
• 38:59
  doing different things. Yeah. No, I mean, I learned to pray, I learned to play in, uh, pray in treatment. Yeah. Just hit my knees every single day- [laughs]... and just got that habit. Yep.
• 39:09
  And repeating the third step prayer to myself every day. Yeah, yeah.
• 39:12
  And just got into that habit, you know, and it speaks to what you're saying, those, those disciplines, those spiritual disciplines that I think do overlap, um, with the spiritual principles- Mm... that this book applies.
• 39:25
  Step three, buddy. Step three- All right... coming hot next time. Always a pleasure. Enjoyed it, my friend. Good to see you. Likewise. [upbeat music] Hey, thanks for listening.
• 39:34
  You can find more info at progressinperfection.com, and we'll talk to you tomorrow.