Latest / The Bold Lounge / Sabine Roduit: Bold Begins Within

Transcript

Sabine Roduit: Bold Begins Within · The Bold Lounge

• 0:07
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge Podcast.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_00: My name is Lee Burgess and I will be your host.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you're anything like me, you love hearing inspiring stories of people who have gone on bold journeys and made a positive impact in the world.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: This podcast is all about those kinds of stories.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_00: Every week we'll hear from someone who has technically or embarked on an extraordinary journey.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: In addition to hearing their stories, we'll also learn about their bold growth mindset that they use to make things happen.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_00: Whether they faced challenges or doubts along the way, they persisted and ultimately achieved their goals.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: These impactful stories will make you feel motivated and inspired to pursue your own bold journey.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: I believe everyone has a bold story waiting to be free.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: Tune in, get ready to be inspired.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Bold Lounge.
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited today to have Sabine Rudwitz.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: She is the Global Head of Business Architecture at Nestle.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much, Lee.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's a pleasure to be here with you.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought we sort of would tell me a little about your job.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_00: What does a global head of business architecture do?
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's an excellent question.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_01: So for you to know, I used to be the CIO for Nestle in North America until the 1st of April this year.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm going through a complete transition from a work perspective.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: So being the business architect for Nestle is a little bit the integration that you would have between your IT organization and your business.
• 1:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it is how do you translate the business requirement down to the architecture?
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: And how do you make sure that you can accelerate the digital transformation?
• 1:45
  SPEAKER_01: You can look at it as being the translator, yeah, when it comes from a language perspective.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: And also having that aspect of being the glue between the different components that you have in an enterprise in order to make it like a better, a better outcome.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that means you probably have a lot of patience, or even have to.
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very interesting.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_01: I do not have a lot of patience.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_01: I like when things are happening and happening pretty fast.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_01: And if you look at some of the behavior that I will have to know how to transform between being a CIO, which is all about delivering results and delivering results fast, versus starting to talk about the strategy uh aspect.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_01: So you you're less in a delivery, but more in a thinking and and more in a strategy uh space.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: I will have to relearn and and to stretch a little bit that muscle.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 2:41
  SPEAKER_00: Especially when you go from like one, you know, obviously you were in the US and now you're in Switzerland, I believe.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: I am.
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_00: So in in a sense of even just the locality of how strategy works, I bet we can get into some of that, like what's the difference.
• 2:55
  SPEAKER_00: You know, as in the US, we go from one organization to another organization, and it's a different culture, it's a different way of moving.
• 3:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's sometimes there are different speeds, sometimes literally or figuratively, it's a different language.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm excited to get into some of that and how how we do stretch our muscles and how we know when something's not working, when it worked before.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: Well, let's get into it.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: I'd love to hear your definition of bold and what it means to you.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_01: So that's very interesting.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I I did a little bit of research and I asked ChatGPT what is the difference between being bold and being courageous?
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_01: So before I did that little search, I would have said I've been bold in a lot of occasions.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that you could use interchangeably bold and courageous.
• 3:43
  SPEAKER_01: But it seems that from a definition perspective, the difference between bold and courageous is bold is it's something that's happening quite fast, and you don't do a lot of planning and potentially a lot of thinking about what could be the downfall of taking a decision versus being courageous is you you take the first step, but you do understand the planning and the consequences of the different step.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: But even though after reading that from a theory perspective, I I decided that in my life I've been bold because I went out of my comfort zone in quite a bit of occasion.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_00: So you've stepped out of the comfort zone, and I really do think courage and boldness are connected.
• 4:25
  SPEAKER_00: My definition, which I think if you've listened to the podcast, there's little tweaks and tunes on it that people do.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think there's a whole continuum.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: There's the maybe the I'm making a decision, I have a gut feel, I'm going to do it, I'm taking the leap or the jump or the step.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_00: It could be small to big.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_00: And then I think there's the part of it that you know is very thoughtful and pragmatic.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: So, like I'm a, I guess, as a boldest person or whatever they're called, as a bold person, I like very thoughtful, but I'm not gonna stew in it.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna sit around.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's the connection to that.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: And I think your your connection or you know, the relatedness of courage is it's there.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_00: I think you actually have to have the courage to take that step, to move into that unknown, to step out of that comfort zone.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's a great way to put it, because it kind of captures all three areas of how you could look at bold.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: So when you think about your life, when was the first time you remember being bold?
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: That's an excellent question.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: So I think the first time where I've really been bold was in 2002 when my boss came and asked me if I wanted to go to Los Angeles to build a team.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: My English was very, very broken back then.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_01: So I had an English that I would say was okay from a work perspective.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: And in less than 24 hours, I said, yes, I'm I'm going to go.
• 5:51
  SPEAKER_01: And then a few months later, I took my luggage when I arrived in LAX.
• 5:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I can tell you that with my broken English, the first the first things that happened to me is the custom agent asked me to stay behind the yellow line, you know, the layer line.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, I'm I'm really sorry, I don't understand you.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: And he was yelling at me for me to go behind that line.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh my God, what did I do?
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: And I really started, I really started to think, oh, did I make the right?
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: It was really, really tough.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: It was uh, did I make the you know the right decision?
• 6:31
  SPEAKER_01: And I have to say, the first six months, the first six months of that experience was probably the hardest of my of my life.
• 6:40
  SPEAKER_01: One, because I had to learn a new language, two, I come from Switzerland.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: So until then I was working in Switzerland, in Europe, which is a little bit like a cocoon.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up in the US, in Los Angeles.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: I come from a 3,000 citizen, I can I think I can even not say city, but village.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then I ended up to a 12 million city.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, oh my God, what did I do?
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I remember thinking, if my boss is asking me to go back, I'm going to tell him that I already have my plane ticket.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm so happy that he never asked me to come back because I think it's the best experience that never happened to me.
• 7:18
  SPEAKER_01: One, I learned a lot about myself.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: And two, I enjoyed it so much in terms of the challenges that I had to overcome.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: But also having, after these three years, having the confidence that you can deal with a lot of challenges in in your life, and you're going to go, you're going to go through and you're going to be a better, a better person.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_01: So when I came back, I was a better person personally because I learned a lot about myself, also what was important for me.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_01: And then as a professional, I was a professional who understood now a different culture from a work perspective, but I was speaking a different language as well.
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I started to see that by being bold, by being impulsive sometimes, you know, when you make a decision with your guts.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_01: I think we discussed that a little bit earlier.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_01: Is I'm someone who uses more my guts than my heart, than thinking through, you know, some some of this of this decision.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's the best things that I ever done in my life.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: I had a conversation with one of my clients, I think it was even just last week, and we talked about the difference between impulsive and decisive.
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: Impulsive can have a negative connotation, right?
• 8:33
  SPEAKER_00: To it in the sense of like, oops, I just did it without thinking.
• 8:37
  SPEAKER_00: Decisive is a flavor, I think, of impulsiveness, but it's in my mind, it's with thought, it's with data, it's with information.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I think it's kind of like again, that's where bold is kind of like right in between those two things, is like you're just not gonna stew in it, you're gonna have enough data to be educated, but sometimes you don't even have all the data.
• 8:59
  SPEAKER_00: So I think that's a that's a a good thing to point out is you know, you making a move to the US from a very small place to a very, very large place, and different cities have different vibes and the way they operate.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when we make our bold moves, we take the step and they're like, Man, I I think I'd like to go backwards now.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's like, okay, now that I know like what the step feels like, I'm gonna I'd like to go back, but you can't.
• 9:24
  SPEAKER_00: You got to like like take the next step in the next step.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: So you did exactly that, and you said a couple things in there.
• 9:30
  SPEAKER_00: Obviously, you learned to deal with a lot, and you've learned a lot about yourself.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: What was the most surprising thing you learned about you in that time frame?
• 9:42
  SPEAKER_01: It's an excellent, I thought that's an excellent question.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: I think I learned I learned two fundamental things.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: The first one is the closeness that I need with my family, and I never realized that because I was close to them all the time.
• 9:59
  SPEAKER_01: But it made me it made me rethink that importance of the closeness.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and then I learned throughout my my career, because I did travel quite a bit around the world, that closeness doesn't mean all the time being in the same city or in the same village or in this, you know, in the same house.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's about how do you communicate and how do you keep in touch.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: The second one that I've learned, Lee, is you cannot you cannot escape from some of the problems that you that you have.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So a few years before I moved to LA, I lost my boyfriend in a car accident.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And a year later, I lost my dad.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_01: They both passed away.
• 10:40
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, oh, that's going to be okay.
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_01: I had the habit to put my problem in a little in a little place in the back of my mind, and I would be strong enough to say everything is okay, everything is okay, everything is okay, everything is okay.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_01: And it was true what I thought until I arrived in LA.
• 11:02
  SPEAKER_01: And then in LA, I didn't have my my support like I used to have when I was home.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have my family, I didn't have my friends, because when I moved, I moved alone.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: So no boyfriend, no husband, no friend alone to build a team of 30 people later, three years later.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, the first six months I didn't felt it because I had to deal with the language, I had to deal with work, I had to deal with getting an apartment.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, all the all the normal things that you have, all the distraction.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: And after six months, when this distraction was over, I could start to speak English a little bit better, I was settling, I started to be sad.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: And I was like, why am I sad?
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_01: And then I was starting to get confused about is it because it's hard, or is it because my dad is not there, or is it because Raphael is not there, etc.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I started to get confused about everything.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, I I learned that you cannot put some problem in the back of you know your mind.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: In one point in time, you will have to go and deal with it.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I I did a little bit of work on myself.
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: So I read a lot about meditation, I read a lot about how do you deal with, you know, how do you deal with death, which I would never have done before.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: And when I came back from the US, I made a I made a promise to myself, which is like if I have a big problem to deal with, I'm going to go and learn how to to deal with, and not continuing to do what I've been doing very successfully all these years to kind of hide it in the back in the back of my mind.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think that would be probably the two things that I learned about myself.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_01: And maybe a third one is is that I can deal with very complex things.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's taught me as well that I I can build a resilience in order for me to deal with complex problems or to deal with complex things that would happen in your life.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_01: So that may be the three things that I've learned.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: Those are really good ones.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_00: So closest to family and then learning how to communicate and how you can still stay close, but it takes a little different effort or a route to do that.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: So like a awareness around that.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then, you know, I think we've heard the adage you can't run, you know, from your your sadness or from your problems, because they always they follow you.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And so figuring out, and it sounds like you went through a process of figuring out how to understand it, understand what it was.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_00: Cause like even when it first kind of trickled up, you're like, what is that?
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: Like, why am I is it just because I'm away, or like even getting to the root of of the sadness.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think being bold at times, I think, especially as women, like we just tuck it away.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, I'll just, you know, I'm gonna put that in a box.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, it's real, yes, it hurts, yes, it's painful, but I'm just gonna put it over here because I have stuff to do, I got stuff to get done, and I have plenty of what I call distractions of like not to focus on that.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: But at some point in your life, it's gonna get quiet.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_01: It does.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: And that box is then like the lids is gonna like tip up and you're gonna be like, okay, what is that?
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, oh yeah, I didn't deal with that.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you kind of went through that process, which is no small undertaking.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_00: And then the last thing is really just about literally understanding the complexity continuum that you can deal with from a challenge to understanding and kind of really growing your leadership muscles and your strategic muscles uh in a different way.
• 14:35
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when you go from different roles or come into different situations, you use some of the ones you've always used, but then you're like, okay, well, that one I need to definitely boost that one up or you know, learn a new one sometimes.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it's breaking learning.
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_01: Absolutely.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So with all that, how did you move through that to the next phase of your life and in your career?
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: So you have all these things happening in LA, and then you're still obviously you know progressing in your organization and learning more and learning more.
• 15:06
  SPEAKER_00: What was next for you in the in those steps?
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: So after three years, I've been invited to come back in in Switzerland, which I did, and there what I did for the first time in my life, so I guess we can we can call it bold as well, is I fully I truly fall in love, and I decided to put my personal life on before my my career.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: So I met Tim, and then what we agreed, because Tim had uh a little girl from a previous relationship, is that both of us would leave Nestle and we would go to the UK in order to be closer to his daughter.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: So same thing.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_01: I was I was convinced it was the right thing to do, so I left Nestle, where my career was definitely growing.
• 15:56
  SPEAKER_01: Then I went to the UK, I found a job, we stayed there for three years.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: So, same thing, I learned a lot about myself on how to deal with a situation where you are a recomposed uh family, yeah, because it's not simple every day.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, we still don't have kids together.
• 16:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then happened in a moment in time where our personal situation changed, and therefore we decided to quit the UK both together and to come back in in Switzerland.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_01: We stayed there for seven years, so I had different jobs throughout these seven years.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_01: And in 2017, my boss came and said, Hey, would you be interested to go back to the US with your family and take on the role of the CIO?
• 16:46
  SPEAKER_01: And we had a conversation with Tim.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: Tim definitely had to think about it because it was really he followed my career.
• 16:55
  SPEAKER_01: If there is anything that I can say, is he've been incredible in being supportive all along the way.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: And then we moved in in the US for six years, and we came back together in 2023 here in Verbe.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_01: So we've done quite a bit of move for different reasons across the world.
• 17:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So from the perspective of what we just talked about, of you being able to heal and understand where the sadness came from, and also understand how to deal with loss or change or difficult situations.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: If you wouldn't have done that, you wouldn't have gotten to that moment.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_00: So, like your previous bold move, which was addressing it, taking it head on, being able to go, okay, something's not right here, and it isn't just me, I'm feeling sad because I'm in the US.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER_00: So you you kind of work through that, you learned, you read, you you know, you did the work, which isn't easy to kind of figure out, okay, like, is that it?
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what do I do next?
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: I think getting to that point where you could meet Tim and do those things and then move, right?
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: You move to the UK, you quit what would be like a really great job and is a great job for that.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_00: So as people are looking for those indicators of like, wow, I bet people don't understand what I'm doing or why I'm doing it.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have that moment with any of your friends or family of like, wow, how could you leave Nestle and go to the UK and and do this?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Did you have any of those moments?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_01: I had I had this moment, but you know, I was so clear in my head that it was the right things to do.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: That for me, even though I had some of this crazy moment or crazy conversation, it didn't bother me because it was very deep inside, which is it is the right things to do.
• 18:38
  SPEAKER_01: I want to try, I want to make it, you know, I wanna I wanna make it work.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, you know, you you talk about doing that work.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that I realized throughout my life is more you work, more often you work on when things are kind of smaller, the less painful is the process.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: But also the more open your mind is.
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you know, without doing this, without appreciating the fact that I was convinced that love was more important than work in one point in time in my life, in order to set it up.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: And then it set up the the the tone for for our respective life as well with Steam, then I don't think I would have taken the same path.
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Because I think potentially my my mind would have been more close than what it started to be.
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that I tried to do least systematically after after like a like a big event, it can be like a change in work, even if it's very positive.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_01: I tried to um step back a little bit and do some learnings.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_01: What did I learn?
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what did I learn through that experience?
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_01: I never thought about having an experience and and felt that I failed.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_01: I all the time look at an experience and thought, it's a unique opportunity to have a different journey.
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: And then if the journey is not really what you are expecting, what what did you learn?
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_01: You know, what do you agree to double click on or to do more of versus what do you agree with yourself that you're not going to go through that path ever, ever again?
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, I've been very pleased to have to work on.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: I I've been very, very proud that I've done that work because otherwise I would not be the person that I am today.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_01: I would probably still be in my 3,000 little village.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_01: I would still do my life, and and I think I think I enjoyed more.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: I enjoyed more my life over overall because you have bigger rewards, but sometimes you have bigger, bigger learnings that you have to face.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think your point is correct.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_01: You have to do the work, you have to do the work.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you had said something very important, like start doing the work when it's smaller, like it doesn't have to be something big, right?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: It doesn't, it doesn't, it's you know when you need to do the work, usually.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh there's usually that oh a surprise.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: Like I have to like think about something or figure something out or kind of dig into that a little bit more.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people I meet just want to push it away.
• 21:13
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the people who are bold and courageous and kind of step into it are the people that are gonna do the work and want to figure it out, want to take the time, want to invest in themselves because they realize that if they don't, it can actually stop them from being who they want to be or getting the role they want to get or getting into that role.
• 21:32
  SPEAKER_00: So I think you actually just said that.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: You said, you know, like because of the path you chose and the work that you did, it led to something you never probably could have even imagined, right?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: Correct.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: And uh your experiences.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And you made a decision, yours was love over job, which I wholeheartedly believe in, that led you to the next step, the next thing, which then ultimately actually helped your career and helped you have.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: New experiences.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: And I think when we have loss in our life or we have something that doesn't go as planned, it is a growth opportunity.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's something to learn.
• 22:09
  SPEAKER_00: And maybe it's something we won't do again or or we will do again.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: You know, you learn what to do and what not to do, who to turn to for support, or who to ask, who not to ask.
• 22:21
  SPEAKER_00: So what's your biggest, you know, you don't use the word failure, but like what is your biggest learning along the way?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_00: From the professional side or personal side, like what's the failure that you cherish?
• 22:32
  SPEAKER_00: Meaning, I learned so much from just that moment, that event.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: Is there anything that comes to mind for you?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, there is.
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_01: So the biggest learning for me was not a long time ago.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: I would probably say like um five years ago.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: I had a very particular mission, and I didn't deliver the mission in full.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, I was a little bit late, the business case was not delivered on time, etc.
• 22:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought, which I learned further down the road, I thought that I was doing the right thing with having the right governance in order to discuss the conversation and the decision that I needed to take, you know, in that project.
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: I thought that the people that were in that governance would tell my story correctly when they would have to go and and discuss what's happened in North America.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: And one thing that I've learned is that you have a lot of friends as long as things go well in the work environment.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my god, you have like all these friends that you've never seen before, you kind of attract, you you you become very popular, you know, and when things are not going as well, you don't have that popularity anymore.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_01: And the people that I thought were part of the you know, part of the decision that we made, part of the journey that we were designing, well, sudden suddenly I look at myself and I was alone and I was like, really?
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: But hey Bob, you are part of that decision.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: So where is where is your accountability?
• 24:10
  SPEAKER_01: And and I started to realize that you need to you need to behave a little bit differently, even when you are successful, and when you are learning and you cannot maybe meet your your deliverables, you need to be on top of your story.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: So one big mistake that I made is I let people talking about my story with their own words, with their own perception, even though they were part of it.
• 24:40
  SPEAKER_01: And it took me a year of communication, a year of going back to my stakeholder to repair.
• 24:48
  SPEAKER_01: And that day, which by the way, that day I asked for help because I was in that negative loop on how how did I let that happen?
• 25:00
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of bringing my which I learned that, instead of bringing my mind to okay, cool, so you cannot change the outcome.
• 25:07
  SPEAKER_01: It is what it is, the perception it is what it is, you didn't deliver.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_01: But what can you do in order to action and dealing with the situation differently?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I was in that negative loop on asking myself every single morning when I was waking up to say, How did you let that happen?
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: How did you let that happen?
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: And for months, and I felt that I was paralyzed.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_01: So instead of taking the ownership of the situation, instead of being clear and being bold with you know, with my statement and my plan, I was being in that negative loop.
• 25:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I raised my hand and I said, uh, I want to coach.
• 25:45
  SPEAKER_01: So I had an external coach.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER_01: We talked about it.
• 25:49
  SPEAKER_01: That person helped me to get out of the rabbit hole that I was that that I was in.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_01: And now nobody is talking about my story.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: Independently if it's positive or if it's negative, I I want to be there to making sure that my voice is is being heard in in both ways.
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: But that has that took me a year and definitely affected a little bit my my health.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER_01: And I learned that things are happening, you need to have an acknowledgement of what is happening, but to go to that negative loop is not going to help.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_01: What you need to do is to be agree on how are you going to act and what are you going to do in order to deal with the situation.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: So that's for me was probably my my biggest learning from a from a work perspective.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: I bet in some form or fashion, a lot of the listeners can relate to that because you probably had a trusting attitude of like I would be honest and say I was part of that decision, or you know, I was on the team that voted that we should take the time to create the governance team, and but other people didn't act as you would.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I know I can relate to that.
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's actually, I'll just say the word hurtful because you get to that position of like, yeah, I know I'm responsible, I'm the lead, but we all made the decision together.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: But now I'm the only one, and I look behind me, and no one is agreeing that they agreed to it.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a it's a difficult situation, and I think it it almost feels like a strong word would be like betrayed.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like my kryptonite for things is dishonesty, betrayal, ignorance.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: Ignorance plus dishonesty is like a double whammy.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: I and I think when people are in these situations, they're just protecting themselves, most likely for whatever reason, but they protect themselves over doing the honest thing or the right thing, which is something I don't know, I just could never understand.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have to be honest about, you know, a a project that I think in there you also learned that I can't just beat myself up every day about this.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like the negative loop that happens between our ears sometimes and our own mind is one that's pretty vicious, you know.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how didn't I not see that?
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_00: What why didn't I why didn't I think about that?
• 28:06
  SPEAKER_00: What could I have done differently?
• 28:07
  SPEAKER_00: And if you stay in that loop, you actually just almost like a tire in the mud.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: It just like keeps spinning and spinning.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_00: So again, you did another bold thing there is to say, I need help, I need a coach, I need something different, you know, I need to like get get out of this rut.
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_00: And uh that actually took you to the next level.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: So I think one of the things that's bold is admitting when you need something different, when you need whether it's a change of scenery or you need someone to help talk through things.
• 28:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it's and I've said this before, it's okay to have, it's okay to not be okay.
• 28:40
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have to figure stuff out along the way.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: Being bold doesn't mean like every day is butterflies and rainfalls, and it means that you're doing the work on and off throughout that passage.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you think about one of the things you said is your health, it took effect on your health.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_00: When did you know like it was doing that?
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: And then what did you do to get out of that cycle?
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_01: So it's very interesting, though.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: I I started, so I'm doing quite a bit of uh like a running and and walking, and and physically suddenly I started to have a problem with my knee.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, okay, so I have no idea why.
• 29:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it took me like a few months before going to a chiropractor, and then the chiropractor, so she she looked at me and she said, but the problem is not your knee.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: Your problem is the full back and your neck and your shoulder and your arm.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_01: And then we started and then we started to work on it.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_01: But it took me a year physically to get through that, and that was exactly at the same time that I started with the coach.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing that the coach told me is she was saying, It's so incredible, Sabine, because your brain is saying something and your body is completely disconnected from your brain.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_01: And by having these two ladies helping me one physically, the other one, you know, with with the brain, 12 months later, I I was like new.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_01: So I didn't have any problem anymore.
• 30:13
  SPEAKER_01: But one thing that I did decide is that I would go systematically every three weeks to a chiropractor, which I'm still doing it now, in order to prevent.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_01: And the other things for me that I learned is asking for help, you know, as soon as I see the sign, because you we we all have a certain set of sign, yeah, when we start to be stressed, when we start to be uncomfortable with some of the situation, etc.
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_01: So I learned to read this sign.
• 30:40
  SPEAKER_01: And now when I start to see them, you know, starting to popping up, because your point is correct, it's not it's not pitchy all the time.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: It's not because I went through that that I'm not stressed anymore, but now I I can see the sign popping up and and I know what what to do or reapplying some of the learnings that I had in order to in order to calm down the situation, either physically or or or mentally.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: But these two ladies have been critical to my to my recovery.
• 31:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, definitely.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_00: Mine would be like acupuncture, which I think has helped me a tremendous amount just in kind of recovering from burnout, which is what I had in 2020 when I left my role.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, the other thing is like getting healthy again, getting moving, eating the right thing.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: And then I believe in coaches wholeheartedly.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_00: So, and I think you need different types of coaches at different points in life.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so, like, I think there's you know, special people that kind of you know fill that role for you as you get older in your life and the coaches.
• 31:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I love the combination of the mindset, the mind, you know, and and coaching and and kind of also understanding yourself and then the physicality of you know, whether it's a chiropractor, acupuncturist, or you know, a trainer or whatever maybe, or all of the above.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, some people have a lot of people.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_00: I do think like it's it's the mind and body, and you know, I I think the the body does like keep the score when you're doing things that you know are mentally taxing or stressful.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it's hard for it not to like be shown.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, one thing that it made me realize as well, because it it is not just you.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_01: That was not fun at home.
• 32:15
  SPEAKER_01: So one thing that I realized uh as well is that me being stressed to a certain level also impacted, you know, what's happening at home.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I realized something who helped me tremendously.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_01: It's it helped me to realize that we have one health, one family, but we can have 10 jobs, thousand problems at work.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_01: And therefore, when there is any doubt, I've learned that maybe I should go where there is the least number of opportunity.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, which is like caring about the health and caring about the the family, because that became clear to me that again the priorities were completely wrong.
• 32:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 32:56
  SPEAKER_00: I think certainly a lot of talk of it since 2020 about burnout and people realizing and understanding the signs of it.
• 33:03
  SPEAKER_00: And I probably have had moments throughout my entire career.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've worked in some really incredible organizations that push hard, and I like that about it, but also there's a side of it that can what I call get you out of alignment.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: I think like being aligned with what you want to do, what you're good at, your family life, your personal life, your relationships, having that alignment.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that you said is just now, because of what you went through, you know when it's like getting out of alignment, right?
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: You know when it's something's off and you know you have to do something different.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it may be making a difficult choice, or maybe like choosing one thing over another or taking time away, or whatever it may be, is like being bold enough to say, I've got to do something different.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can't just keep doing the same thing.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so, what would be your advice to someone who has like has that indicator, that light comes on, caution, and instead of just like hitting the reset button so the light goes off, what what would be your advice for someone to like understand and see why the light came on?
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_01: So I guess we're all different, yeah.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_01: So some of the things that would work with with you, or I could not work with with someone else.
• 34:10
  SPEAKER_01: But the first things that I would say is don't get stuck alone in your head.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_01: Because this little voice sometimes is making things worse than what they're really what they really are.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_01: I think you said it as well, is you know, doing the same thing and expecting a different result, it's called insanity.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: Therefore, how do you break that?
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: How do you break that that silo?
• 34:38
  SPEAKER_01: How do you ask for the help that you need?
• 34:42
  SPEAKER_01: It can be, I don't know, it can be a friend, it can be a family member, it can be a doctor, it can be a psyche, it can be someone who is helping you physically, but don't stay alone, ask for the help that that you need.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_01: Because your point about alignment, it's a constant, it's a constant struggle.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, you called it alignment.
• 35:05
  SPEAKER_01: I uh I called it uh harmony because I I don't think there is any I don't think there is any balance.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not about balance, it's about what makes you happy in one point in time.
• 35:16
  SPEAKER_01: And if we take the analogy of the waves, you know, sometimes you are on the waves of the family, and then sometimes you're on the waves of work, and it and it and it's okay because this is what brings a harmony to you.
• 35:28
  SPEAKER_01: But for me, what worked is to ask for help and getting the help that that I that I needed, yeah.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: So to just noticing it, intentionally noticing it and not pushing it away and not putting it to the back corner or in a box.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so and that's bold.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think dealing with things as they come up and realizing I can't push it away and I have to do something different, and it not only helps you, but it helps basically everyone you come in contact with, your family, friends, your relationships, your job.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: And so quote Nike, just do it.
• 36:05
  SPEAKER_00: You know, just do it.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: Take the time, take the day, take the month, take the year.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: That's the other thing, it's like it may not happen overnight, and I think as driven in our roles and in our life and wanting to do the best, and you know, knowing life is short, like we just don't have time to waste.
• 36:23
  SPEAKER_00: But sometimes things do take time.
• 36:25
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the other thing I think I would mention.
• 36:27
  SPEAKER_00: Would you agree?
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like it's not instantaneous.
• 36:30
  SPEAKER_01: No, it is like I was reflecting that if I never had that learnings in LA 21 years ago, I would be probably one of these people who even don't know how to recognize the sign and don't know how to tackle to do that work that we've been talking about for the last 20 minutes.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_01: And for me, this is a journey.
• 36:53
  SPEAKER_01: And it's like more you notice things, more you're going to notice things, more you deal with your your challenge, more you're going to do it, and easier it it's going to be as well.
• 37:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I I agree with you.
• 37:09
  SPEAKER_01: It doesn't come instantly and it's a journey.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_01: But it's if I may, I think it's also up to us to start to start the journey.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, no one's coming to save us, Sabine.
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_01: Oh no, I sometimes I wish, but no.
• 37:24
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 37:25
  SPEAKER_00: But I just think that's really important there for people to realize like they own it.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_00: And that's like of the framework, like the ownership.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: I think at times we own, we own a lot.
• 37:35
  SPEAKER_00: And again, I think as women, sometimes we own too much.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_00: We own the things that maybe aren't even ours to own.
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_00: But I think there's times that we don't actually own whether we're in charge of the next step.
• 37:48
  SPEAKER_00: You know, someone can't do that for you.
• 37:50
  SPEAKER_00: Someone can't come in and help you understand or take that time for yourself.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: You have to own that.
• 37:55
  SPEAKER_00: And so I think that's really important for people to hear too.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for being on the bold lounge.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, talk for another hour for sure.
• 38:04
  SPEAKER_00: And all the information about Sabine, her role, and everything that she's about is in the episode.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you so much for being on the bold lounge.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: Thank you very much.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for listening to the bold lounge podcast.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: The continuous bold story, vulnerability and only will be more extraordinary people like in a lot of different brothers.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_00: They're unique and important code.
• 38:28
  SPEAKER_00: By highlighting the story to connect fire rather than the charity of the telephone.