Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #629 Dan Pink: The Power of Regret

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#629 Dan Pink: The Power of Regret · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Families podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: answers Now.
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  Speaker 3: Hello, this is doctor Justin Colson today, a guest on
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  Speaker 3: the podcast that I'm so excited to be able to
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  Speaker 3: speak with. If I was to put together a list
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  Speaker 3: of favorite authors, favorite influencers, people who have done things
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  Speaker 3: that are talk worthy, right at the top of the
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  Speaker 3: list would be a guy by the name of Daniel Pink.
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  Speaker 3: Dan Pink is the author of five New York Times
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  Speaker 3: best sellers, including his latest book, The Power of Regret,
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  Speaker 3: How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. He also wrote a
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  Speaker 3: book that almost everyone in the entire world has read,
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  Speaker 3: I'm sure, called Drive. And he had a book just
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  Speaker 3: come out in the last year or so as well
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  Speaker 3: called When He's Prolific.
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  Speaker 1: That's all I can say.
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  Speaker 3: He's had a TV show on National Geographic that's been
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  Speaker 3: seen in like one hundred countries, writes for all of
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  Speaker 3: the big publications in the US and around the world,
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  Speaker 3: and has done a whole lot more stuff. And Dan
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  Speaker 3: joins me for a conversation about his brand new book,
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  Speaker 3: The Power of Regret, How Looking Backward Moves Us Forward. Dan,
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  Speaker 3: thanks for being on the Happy Family's podcast. This is
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  Speaker 3: an absolute delight.
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  Speaker 2: I'm glad to be with you justin thanks for having me, So.
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  Speaker 1: Dan, I'm going to show you my phone just here
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  Speaker 1: for a sec.
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  Speaker 3: It's literally gone blank as I picked it up on
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  Speaker 3: the let me find it here. On the twenty fourth
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  Speaker 3: of the fourth twenty twenty one, I wrote this little
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  Speaker 3: note to myself that I wanted to write a book
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  Speaker 3: all about the power of regret. In fact, I've come
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  Speaker 3: up with the opener. I wrote, of all the words
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  Speaker 3: of tongue and pen the saddestar, what could have been
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  Speaker 3: a little couplet. I thought, let's write a book about regrets,
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  Speaker 3: the science of regret, examples of people's regret. Should we
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  Speaker 3: avoid regret? Or is it our best teacher? I thought,
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  Speaker 3: there's something in this. I've got an idea. I reckon
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  Speaker 3: it could be a New York Times bestseller. And I
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  Speaker 3: regret taking so long to get onto it. But somehow
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  Speaker 3: I think that you did a better job than I
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  Speaker 3: would have done.
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  Speaker 2: You know, I wish you would have done. It would
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  Speaker 2: have saved me a lot of grief of writing this.
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  Speaker 3: Book, So Dan, so many people say that they don't
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  Speaker 3: have regrets. You've touched on that in the book. Why
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  Speaker 3: do you think there's saying that that I don't have
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  Speaker 3: any regrets and you actually rejected outright, Why do you
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  Speaker 3: do that?
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  Speaker 2: Well, let's talk about the baseline first, is that everybody
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  Speaker 2: has regrets. What we know from sixty years of science
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  Speaker 2: in psychology, neuroscience, cognitive science, development of psychology, is that
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  Speaker 2: regret is one of the most common emotions that human
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  Speaker 2: beings have. It's arguably the most common negative emotion that
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  Speaker 2: human beings have. If you don't have regrets, it means
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  Speaker 2: you're probably a five year old, or you have some
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  Speaker 2: brain disorder or your sociopath But everybody has regrets. So
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  Speaker 2: why would people say that right when we know that
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  Speaker 2: everybody has regrets? And I think it's a really intriguing
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  Speaker 2: question justin I think one of them is I think
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  Speaker 2: part of it is is that people think that that
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  Speaker 2: is courageous, that that's a sign of courage. I don't
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  Speaker 2: have any regrets. You know, I'm bold, I'm courageous, right.
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  Speaker 2: I think that's one reason. I think another reason is
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  Speaker 2: that people are over indexed on positivity. They think that
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  Speaker 2: the way to lead a good life is to have
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  Speaker 2: only positive emotions and no negative emotions. And I think
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  Speaker 2: another reason is that we don't know what to do
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  Speaker 2: with our regrets, so it's much easier to ignore than
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  Speaker 2: or bury them. It turns out that we have a
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  Speaker 2: half century of science saying that is a colossally bad idea.
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  Speaker 2: So what I'm trying to do in part in this
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  Speaker 2: book is normalize this emotion of regret because it's normal.
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  Speaker 3: There's a parent on page forty four of the book
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  Speaker 3: who says one of her great regrets is, and I quote,
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  Speaker 3: I yelled at my daughter when she was five on
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  Speaker 3: the way to school when she spilled some yogat on
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  Speaker 3: her uniform.
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  Speaker 1: I really lated to her, and I've regretted it ever since.
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  Speaker 1: She didn't deserve that.
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  Speaker 3: I upset her so much, and for what a bit
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  Speaker 3: of a stain on her uniform. I will never stop
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  Speaker 3: regretting that moment. I've never yielded her in that way again.
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  Speaker 3: So I learned from that mistake, but I wish I
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  Speaker 3: could take that moment back.
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  Speaker 1: Now. I read that and I thought two things.
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  Speaker 3: Number one, I relate, But number two, if that's the
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  Speaker 3: worst thing she's ever done, she must be a pretty
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  Speaker 3: good mum.
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  Speaker 2: It's an interesting thing about what people regret. Obviously this
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  Speaker 2: and I think that tells us something. Okay, so let's
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  Speaker 2: let's let's probe that just a little bit. Think about
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  Speaker 2: that mom or think about any parent, all right, Think
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  Speaker 2: about all the decisions that you make as a parent.
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  Speaker 2: Think about all the decisions you made as a parent
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  Speaker 2: yesterday or last week or last year. Think about all
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  Speaker 2: the actions you took as a parent yesterday or last
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  Speaker 2: week or last year. Most of them you me, I
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  Speaker 2: don't even remember. Okay. So if you have an action
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  Speaker 2: or a decision or somebody that happens to you and
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  Speaker 2: not only do you remember it, which itself is amazing,
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  Speaker 2: but you remember it and it makes you feel bad,
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  Speaker 2: that's a very very very very strong signal. And so
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  Speaker 2: my guess with this person, and what is it the
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  Speaker 2: signal of? It's a signal of And this is the
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  Speaker 2: thing about regret. Regret clarifies what we value and instructs
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  Speaker 2: us on how to do better. Now, it sounds I
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  Speaker 2: did not interview that person. That was an anonymous entry
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  Speaker 2: and among the regrets that I collected, But my guess
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  Speaker 2: is that that person has actually used that as instruction
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  Speaker 2: for the future. But I think the other thing about
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  Speaker 2: it is that it probably raised the question of what
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  Speaker 2: she values. And I think what she values this kindness,
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  Speaker 2: not only towards her children, but toward toward other people.
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  Speaker 2: And so in that sense, this negative feeling is actually
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  Speaker 2: incredibly helpful because in this case, it's a message to
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  Speaker 2: this parent saying, you know what, I actually value kindness
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  Speaker 2: more than I expect, and I've been falling down on that.
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  Speaker 2: I need to be kinder more broadly. Second, it's offering
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  Speaker 2: her instruction about how to deal with her kids. Now
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  Speaker 2: what she could have said, no regrets, I yell up
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  Speaker 2: my kid who cares? All Right, that's not a good idea.
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  Speaker 2: That's not a good idea because you don't learn of
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  Speaker 2: anything from that. And so now I'll tell you it's
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  Speaker 2: also a bad idea. I yellt up my kid. Oh
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  Speaker 2: my god, I am the worst parent there ever was.
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  Speaker 2: I'm going to wallow in that regret. I'm going to
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  Speaker 2: rum it. That's a bad idea too. What we want
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  Speaker 2: to do is we want to use those regrets as
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  Speaker 2: a signal, as information, as data, enlist them, draw lessons
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  Speaker 2: from them, and use those lessons to move forward.
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  Speaker 3: I want to talk about that as less since in
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  Speaker 3: just to say, but first a little bit of autobiography,
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  Speaker 3: if I can. My career is built on regret. Uh
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  Speaker 3: early literally early mistakes that I made as a father.
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  Speaker 3: I couldn't be more grateful for my regrets, couldn't be
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  Speaker 3: more grateful for them. And and in the power of
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  Speaker 3: regret in your book, you talk a lot about how
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  Speaker 3: we can reframe regret. We can look at what that
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  Speaker 3: mom did and how she, instead of beating herself up,
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  Speaker 3: can say this is a learning opportunity.
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  Speaker 1: How does this reframing work?
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  Speaker 2: Well, I mean what we I mean, what we want
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  Speaker 2: to do, as I said before, is find the third
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  Speaker 2: way again, don't ignore, don't willow and confront. Now, how
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  Speaker 2: do we do that? To me? There's a there's a
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  Speaker 2: there's a there's a process that we should go through.
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  Speaker 2: It's it's relatively simple, isn't no one and it's rooted
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  Speaker 2: in science. Is that no one ever talks about it,
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  Speaker 2: no one ever, no one ever taught us how to
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  Speaker 2: do it. So the first step, if we can think
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  Speaker 2: of it as three stages inward outward forward, inward, outward forward,
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  Speaker 2: So inward is your first step is how do you
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  Speaker 2: reframe how you think of yourself and and think of
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  Speaker 2: the regret. And one of the things that we see
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  Speaker 2: is that when we screw up as parents or as
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  Speaker 2: people or people who are parents, the way we talk
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  Speaker 2: to ourselves is brutal.
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  Speaker 1: It's cruel.
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  Speaker 2: Our self talk is often lacerating. That's a bad idea.
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  Speaker 2: There's no evidence that's effective. What we should be doing
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  Speaker 2: in the face of these mistakes is treating ourselves with
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  Speaker 2: kindness rather than contempt. Recognizing that our mistakes are part
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  Speaker 2: of the human condition. That itself is really important. I've
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  Speaker 2: collected regrets from all over the world. Any regret that
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  Speaker 2: any parent out that there has, I got it in
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  Speaker 2: my database. I mean, you know, our regrets are part
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  Speaker 2: of the human condition. The other thing that I think
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  Speaker 2: is important for parents is that when you screw up,
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  Speaker 2: when you make a mistake, that's a moment in your life.
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  Speaker 2: It's not the full measure of your life. That's a
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  Speaker 2: moment in your parenting history. It's not the full definition
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  Speaker 2: of your parenting history. And so when we do that,
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  Speaker 2: that inward look frees us up to do the more
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  Speaker 2: cognitive work of making sense of our regret and drawing
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  Speaker 2: lessons from it.
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  Speaker 3: In the book you talk about at leasting, and if
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  Speaker 3: only can you maybe step through those strategies. I feel
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  Speaker 3: like they're just so immensely perfectly practical for what a
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  Speaker 3: parent can do when they blow it, when they lose
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  Speaker 3: it with their kids, or when they're impatient or completely
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  Speaker 3: fail to show up.
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  Speaker 2: So regret is driven powered by something called counterfactual thinking,
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  Speaker 2: that our brains can't imagine events that run counter to
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  Speaker 2: the actual facts. And there are two types of counterfactual thinking.
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  Speaker 2: There is what psychologists call upward counterfactuals, where you imagine
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  Speaker 2: how things could have been better. If only I had
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  Speaker 2: married Edward instead of Frank, my life would be better, right,
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  Speaker 2: so you imagine not things could be better upward counterfactual.
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  Speaker 2: They're also something known as a downward counterfactual, where you
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  Speaker 2: imagine how things could have turned out worse, where you say,
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  Speaker 2: I regret marrying Edward, but at least I have these
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  Speaker 2: two great kids. Okay, so you find the silver line again,
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  Speaker 2: And then here's what we know upward counterfactuals. If only
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  Speaker 2: regret is the poster child of upward counterfactor rules. If
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  Speaker 2: only make us feel worse, but help us do better
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  Speaker 2: at least, don't help us do better, but they help
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  Speaker 2: us feel better, and sometimes that's okay. And so there
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  Speaker 2: are times where you actually want to do it, at
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  Speaker 2: least with a regret, just to make yourself feel better
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  Speaker 2: and move on. So you could say something like the
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  Speaker 2: mommy you were talking about before, I regret yelling at
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  Speaker 2: my kid for spilling yogurt on her uniform. But at
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  Speaker 2: least I didn't do that a second time. At least
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  Speaker 2: I didn't escalate it. At least I apologized, And that
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  Speaker 2: can actually mitigate some of the psychological sting.
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  Speaker 3: Dan, if you would give timepol parents who feel I've
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  Speaker 3: bewhelmed any advice at all, would what would it be?
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  Speaker 3: I mean, the role of parenting is it's like Sissyphus
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  Speaker 3: and the style right. Every single day we've got to
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  Speaker 3: get up and we've got to do it again so much,
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  Speaker 3: so much.
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  Speaker 1: Of parenting is correction and direction.
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  Speaker 3: This so little time for connection, and we get it
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  Speaker 3: wrong because we're so busy intensifying our parenting efforts.
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  Speaker 1: When you think about all the things.
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  Speaker 3: That you read and you'll regret survey, when you think
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  Speaker 3: about all the things that like the real message of
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  Speaker 3: the power of regret, and you'll fly it to what
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  Speaker 3: it feels like to be a parent. I mean, you've
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  Speaker 3: got kids yourself, how do you how do you take
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  Speaker 3: that Internet into something that's really useful as parents are
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  Speaker 3: struggling with the every day of parenting.
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  Speaker 2: There are a whole bunch of things justin the people
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  Speaker 2: can do here. So let me offer a few sort
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  Speaker 2: of practical tips. One of them is that it's very
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  Speaker 2: important that we normalize as emotion of regret one of
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  Speaker 2: the things that we see, especially with adolescents. And you
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  Speaker 2: know this is especially here in the States. I think
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  Speaker 2: maybe less so, but still in Australia. Is some serious
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  Speaker 2: mental health challenges among young people and teenagers around the world,
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  Speaker 2: and I think part of that is that we haven't
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  Speaker 2: equipped them well enough to deal with negative emotions. So
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  Speaker 2: when they feel a negative emotion, because we haven't equipped them,
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  Speaker 2: they look around and say, oh my god, it's like
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  Speaker 2: I'm feeling bad right now. I'm feeling crappy right now,
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  Speaker 2: but everybody else is so perfect. Wow, there must be
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  Speaker 2: something wrong with me, and so what we should do.
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  Speaker 2: So here's one parenting tip, and I think it's extremely
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  Speaker 2: useful as this talk to your kids about a regret
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  Speaker 2: that you have. Tell your kids about a regret that
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  Speaker 2: you have, but don't stop there. Tell them what you
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  Speaker 2: learn from it, and tell them what you're gonna do
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  Speaker 2: about it. And I think that that will trigger, especially
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  Speaker 2: for teenagers, a very very powerful and enlightening conversation. So
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  Speaker 2: that's one thing I think that parents can do. Another
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  Speaker 2: thing that parents can do is think about as they
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  Speaker 2: anticipate their regrets. To anticipate their regrets, we know from
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  Speaker 2: I did a massive collection of regrets from around the
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  Speaker 2: world and found that around the world people seem to
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  Speaker 2: have the same four core regrets. So would you anticipate
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  Speaker 2: your regrets as a parent? I would really steer them
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  Speaker 2: around doing good enough on most things, but actually making
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  Speaker 2: sure you avoid these four core regrets was one of them. Is,
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  Speaker 2: you know, the regret about not providing stability, huge, huge
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  Speaker 2: parental regret, what I call a foundation regret. The regret
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  Speaker 2: about not taking a sensible risk, taking an adventure with
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  Speaker 2: your family, big regret that parents have. I regret about
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  Speaker 2: doing the wrong thing, as we saw with the mom
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  Speaker 2: who yet at her kid, and also regrets about reaching out.
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  Speaker 2: So if you say, you know what, my kid and
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  Speaker 2: it's not going to matter whether we bought strawberry yogurt
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  Speaker 2: today or cherry yogurt today, it's not going to matter
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  Speaker 2: what Ultimately, you know, if I have a healthy lunch,
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  Speaker 2: what my kid is eating for lunch today. Like, there's
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  Speaker 2: so many decisions parents make, and most of them you
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  Speaker 2: won't remember, but there's some incredibly significant ones that matter
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  Speaker 2: a lot. So when you try to anticipate your regrets
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  Speaker 2: as a parent, anticipate regrets you might have about not
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  Speaker 2: providing stability, regrets you might have about not providing your
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  Speaker 2: family opportunities to learn and grow, regrets you might have
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  Speaker 2: about taking the low road or not doing the right thing,
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  Speaker 2: being immoral, and then regrets that you might have about
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  Speaker 2: not reaching out to your kids, but also to everybody
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  Speaker 2: else in life.
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  Speaker 1: Dan, I love this. You've actually inspired me.
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  Speaker 3: I've been having a conversation with my wife Kylie over
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  Speaker 3: the last couple of weeks. She wants to have more holidays,
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  Speaker 3: she wants to take more vacations, more time away with
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  Speaker 3: the family. Because I'm the dad and I'm always worried
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  Speaker 3: about how much money we've got and whether we can
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  Speaker 3: afford this or we can afford that. I've been sort
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  Speaker 3: of thinking my heels are saying, let's just have a staycation.
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  Speaker 3: We'll stay home, we'll just visit the beach nearby. It'll
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  Speaker 3: be fine. I can't believe I'm sharing this with you,
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  Speaker 3: but I regret the conversation I had with my wife
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  Speaker 3: the other day, and I feel like I need to
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  Speaker 3: go to her and say I'm sorry. We actually we
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  Speaker 3: do need to put ourselves into more debt so that
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  Speaker 3: we can have that holiday, because I think the kids
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  Speaker 3: aren't going to care about the size of the credit
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  Speaker 3: card dead as much as they're going to enjoy that
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  Speaker 3: opportunity to be away with the family and have that experience.
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  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, that's a tricky one. That's a tricky
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  Speaker 2: one because it's in some ways the particular situation that
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  Speaker 2: you're describing as sort of a balance between stability and
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  Speaker 2: stability and boldness. I don't want to take that lately,
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  Speaker 2: what you do have. It's interesting. It's funny you say that.
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  Speaker 2: It's interesting to say that I just got an e
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  Speaker 2: mail from a reader. This reader is in the US
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  Speaker 2: city of Kansas City. I mean literally, like, well, no,
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  Speaker 2: not not today, but yesterday. Who said My bigger regret
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  Speaker 2: is that no joke about this My bigger regret is
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  Speaker 2: that I didn't spend enough money when I when my
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  Speaker 2: family was younger, I was too nervous that we were
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  Speaker 2: going to go into the poorhouse if we did anything.
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  Speaker 2: And now I am. I can't remember his age, but
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  Speaker 2: he was, you know, in his sixties, and he actually
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  Speaker 2: tragically lost to one of his kids. Now I would
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  Speaker 2: do anything to go back in time and do something
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  Speaker 2: because I realized that now I have the money, but
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  Speaker 2: I don't have any memory. I don't have these memories.
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  Speaker 1: Just go to text her to dance.
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  Speaker 3: I can renovate the house, or I can go on
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  Speaker 3: a holiday, and I think that the kids's gonna.
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  Speaker 1: Be gonna be much more.
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  Speaker 2: I'm gonna tell you which one. Yeah, that's a tough
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  Speaker 2: one because you're directly pairing those two things against each other.
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  Speaker 2: That said, one of the things that you see, it's funny.
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  Speaker 2: Let's leave the world of science for a second and
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  Speaker 2: just I can talk about my own experience. I remember
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  Speaker 2: when I have three kids. They're now between the ages
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  Speaker 2: of nineteen and twenty five, twenty six.
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  Speaker 1: Now it keeps changing. Why do they do that?
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  Speaker 2: I know, it's amazing. Every year it seems like it's
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  Speaker 2: a different number. One of the things that an old
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  Speaker 2: boss of mine told me when I first had kids
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  Speaker 2: was pay attention. It's going to go really fast. And
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: I'm like, all right, old man, And then I realized, like, god, dang,
• 15:34
  Speaker 2: he was right. I mean, and so is it going
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: to matter all that much if you pay off your mortgage,
• 15:39
  Speaker 2: you know, this year or two years from now, But
• 15:41
  Speaker 2: your kids are only going to be nine and eleven once.
• 15:46
  Speaker 2: So again, I don't want to be I don't want
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: to take this. I don't want to take those kinds
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: of situations that parents have lightly at all. But these
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: are worthy things to think about. And I think more
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: broadly is that if you make these kinds of decisions
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: and it's a mistake, talk to your kids about it.
• 16:01
  Speaker 2: Here's the thing. I mean, you know this from your
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: research and from your own lived experience. I think one
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: thing that parents don't realize is that their kids listen
• 16:08
  Speaker 2: to them way less than they think, and they watched
• 16:11
  Speaker 2: them way more than that they think. All right, That
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: to me is like a central fact of parenthood. And
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: so if you demonstrate these behaviors of normalizing regret, if
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: you show, hey, I'd made this mistake when I was younger,
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: it hurt. I didn't enjoy it, but I learned this
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: lesson and now I'm doing this instead your kids and
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: you show them what you're doing, your kids are going
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: to pay attention to that. Your kids are going to
• 16:36
  Speaker 2: pay attention to that far more than if you wag
• 16:38
  Speaker 2: your finger at them.
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this has been the best part of the interview.
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: I'm so grateful for what you just sh it. I
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: feel like we just had a little therapy session, Dan.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: That was beautiful.
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: And I know that we barely know each other and
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: we're talking in a public sphere here with a podcast.
• 16:52
  Speaker 3: But when you reflect on your life, and I'm sure
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: you've been asked this question many times because of the
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: book you've written, Dan, but what stands out to you
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: is seeing dificant regret. Is there anything that sort of
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: that that you're comfortable is closing where you just think, ah, gee,
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: I shouldn't have I shouldn't have said, Yes, I shouldn't
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: have done that thing.
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: What do you do?
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of regrets. I have a lot
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: of regrets. I have many many regrets. Now you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I have learned over the years and through this research
• 17:18
  Speaker 2: not to let them debilitate me, and and they don't.
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: But but I still have regrets. I'll give you one example.
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: I have a lot of regrets about kindness from when
• 17:27
  Speaker 2: I was younger. And what's interesting is that in all
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: these regrets that I've collected for this book, there are
• 17:32
  Speaker 2: a lot of regrets about bullying, Okay, from younger. I
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: was amazed at how many regrets all over the world
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: where people regret having bullied somebody. They didn't, they don't
• 17:41
  Speaker 2: regret being on the receiving end of the bullying, the
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: people regretting being the bully. Now, fortunately for my psychological health,
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: I was never a bully. But when I was younger,
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: as a teenager, as a university student, even as a
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: young professional, there were instances where I saw people not
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: being treated by well, people being excluded, people not being
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: treated fairly. I saw it, I knew it was wrong,
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: and I didn't say a word. And that has bugged
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: me for decades now, same kind of thing, it's the
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: same kind of thing. What that's a very normal experience
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: that what's the key here is what do I do
• 18:24
  Speaker 2: with that emotion? What do I do with that stomach
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: churning feeling that I'm describing I can't ignore it. I
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: can say no regrets. I'm positive all the time. I
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: never look backward. What's past. This past bad idea. I
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: can also say, oh my god, I am the worst,
• 18:43
  Speaker 2: most wretched, vicious human being that has ever walked the
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: face of earth. I am terrible. That's a bad idea too.
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: What I should be doing is saying, wow, I feel crappy.
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: This makes me feel bad. That's a signal. What's it
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: telling me? And in the in similar to the case
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: with the yogurt mom, what it's telling me and it
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: has helped me is like I actually value kindness more
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: than I might consciously realize. And it also instructs me
• 19:11
  Speaker 2: to to be more inclusive, to stand up when someone's
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: being mistreated, to bring people, to bring people in. And
• 19:18
  Speaker 2: I've really tried that. Now. Had I not reckon with that,
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: I don't know if I would have done that, I
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: you know, I either would have felt really I would
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: have increasingly felt worse, or I would have not learned
• 19:27
  Speaker 2: that lesson. But by dealing with their regrets, we can
• 19:31
  Speaker 2: we can learn things and you and enlist them to
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: be better parents, better employees, better human beings. You know
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: it reminds me a little bit of your first question,
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: which is that when people profess that they have no regrets,
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: I think that part of it is that it is
• 19:48
  Speaker 2: a form of performed courage. They think this is what
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: it means to be a courageous person. But that's that courage.
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Courage is looking your regrets in the eye and doing
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: something about them. And so you know, and I think
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: that parents who demonstrate courage are good parents. Parents who
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: damonst read courage are teaching their kids valuable, valuable lessons.
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: Dan, this has been just it's been a highlight.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: What a great conversation. Thank you so much for your
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: generosity in sharing what you have.
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: The book is called The Power of Regret.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: For people who want more information about Dan Pink and
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: everything that you.
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Do, where can they go? What can they do?
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: Good to Danpink dot com, d A N p I
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: MK dot com. We've got a free newsletter, all kinds
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: of videos and all kinds.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: Of great stuff.
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I love it. I received the newsletter as regularly
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: as it comes out. I don't know how often it
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: pops up in my inbox, but I love receiving it. Dan,
• 20:34
  Speaker 3: thanks so much for being on a Happy Family's Podcast.
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: It's been a real delight to be with.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: You, a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Justin.
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: That was Daniel Pink.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: You can find out all about Dan Pink by going
• 20:43
  Speaker 3: to his website, and we'll also link to that and
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: his books in the show notes. Ah Man, I've got
• 20:49
  Speaker 3: to say just before we wrap up the podcast. I've
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: interviewed a whole lot of people for this podcast in
• 20:53
  Speaker 3: a whole range of different ways, but talking to Dan
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: Pink is one of the highlights of my life and
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: of the podcast. What an absolute on an absolute superstar.
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: So glad that he was able to join me on
• 21:04
  Speaker 3: the podcast a real thrill. I hope you enjoyed that
• 21:07
  Speaker 3: as much as I did. All the details are in
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: the show notes. As I've mentioned already, I'm sort of gushing,
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: ared I. The Happy Family's Podcast is produced by Justin
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: Ruland from Bridge Media. Craig Bruce is our executive producer.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: If you'd like more information about making your family Happy It,
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: please visit us at Happy families dot com.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Do you