Latest / The Chuck ToddCast / Full Episode - Major Shake Ups That Affect The 2026 Midterms + Growing Up in the Shadow of Power & The Civil Rights Movement

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Full Episode - Major Shake Ups That Affect The 2026 Midterms + Growing Up in the Shadow of Power & The Civil Rights Movement · The Chuck ToddCast

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  Speaker 1: Happy Wednesday, Welcome to another episode of the Chuck Podcast.
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  Speaker 1: I've got a bit I don't want to call it popari,
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  Speaker 1: but in my focus before we get to my interview,
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  Speaker 1: day is going to be very campaigny, if you will,
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  Speaker 1: some interesting developments on the campaign trail for twenty twenty
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  Speaker 1: six plus I want to sort of do a quick
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: little side by side comparison to what the Republicans are
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  Speaker 1: doing with the so called Save Act, their election reform
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: proposal and compare it to the failed Democratic version of this.
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  Speaker 1: It was known as HR one back during the Biden era,
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  Speaker 1: and of course it passed the House, but didn't make
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: it out of the Senate. We're going to see a
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  Speaker 1: similar situation. This bill is going to fail, and I'll explain.
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  Speaker 1: But what you have as two parties are who both
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  Speaker 1: created bills that were designed to fail, not designed to pass.
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  Speaker 1: And I want to talk about that in a few minutes.
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  Speaker 1: My guest today, John Conyers the Third. He is the
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  Speaker 1: son of the famous congressman from the Detroit era area,
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  Speaker 1: from Detroit not area, from Detroit John Conyers to the
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  Speaker 1: late John Conyers. He was elected back in the mid sixties,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: one of the essentially essentially the earliest of the Civil
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  Speaker 1: Rights era African American congressman to come in and uh
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  Speaker 1: and be a leader of that movement. What's interesting about
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  Speaker 1: John Conyers the third, his son wrote a book. He's
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  Speaker 1: unique is his father was in his sixties when he
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  Speaker 1: was born, so he is a millennial who's not two
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  Speaker 1: generations removed from a leader of the Civil Rights era,
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: but just one generation. And he writes about that. He
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: writes what it's like to sort of grow up when
• 3:36
  Speaker 1: you're handed a name that indicates that you must already
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  Speaker 1: have your future laid out for you. I will just
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: encourage you to listen to this interview. It's a very
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  Speaker 1: candid conversation. Very much. I feel like I don't I
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  Speaker 1: don't know him before. I didn't know him before this,
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  Speaker 1: But he doesn't strike me that he was BS and me,
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  Speaker 1: And that's the way I would put it. I think
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  Speaker 1: it's a fascinating conversation, and he's interested in charting his
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: own path politically, and it's let's just say, there's a
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  Speaker 1: lot to dig in. And as you know, I'm obsessed
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  Speaker 1: with all things going on in Michigan these days inside
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  Speaker 1: the Michigan Democratic Party and all the tumult there where
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  Speaker 1: you have a former Democrat run. He's an independent for
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  Speaker 1: governor that very competitive and probably going to be increasingly
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  Speaker 1: nasty Democratic primary for the Senate that is going to
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  Speaker 1: be definitional perhaps on the near term future Democratic primary
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  Speaker 1: debates going into the presidential race. So it's just a
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  Speaker 1: very rich conversation. I encourage you to have it. Also
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  Speaker 1: this episode, I have a fantastic top five list or
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  Speaker 1: maybe a depressing top five list, depending on your point
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  Speaker 1: of view, but it's a fun one, I think. Actually,
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  Speaker 1: I'll tell you so in case you really are so
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  Speaker 1: excited you want to quickly jump to it, which is
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  Speaker 1: the top five laws that used to be that you
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  Speaker 1: won't believe used to be legal when it came to politics,
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  Speaker 1: and then a top five list of things that we
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: ought to make that fifty years from now someone's going
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: to say, I can't believe you guys let this that
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: this was as legal as long as it was. So
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: we'll get to that. Do a few questions, but bottom
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  Speaker 1: line are pretty robust episodes. Let me start with sort
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  Speaker 1: of the state of politics in twenty twenty six, because
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  Speaker 1: we've had a lot of movement. Probably the most significant
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: disaster has been averted for the Republicans. And what do
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  Speaker 1: I mean? Susan Collins finally announced that she is definitely
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  Speaker 1: going to run for reelection. Had there had been certainly
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  Speaker 1: she had done, she had taken a while to confirm
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  Speaker 1: that she was running for reelection. There were starting to
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  Speaker 1: become some growing concern in some Republican circles that the
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  Speaker 1: entire national electoral atmosphere was getting to her that look,
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  Speaker 1: she want to run in what is the most uphill
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  Speaker 1: race she's ever had to run. Right, She's never been
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  Speaker 1: simultaneously unpopular with Republicans and unpopular with Democrats. She certainly
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  Speaker 1: has has made some conservatives angry in the days, but
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  Speaker 1: it's usually come the loss of that vote has come
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  Speaker 1: with the gain of votes of center or even center
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  Speaker 1: left voters in the state of Maine. But since her Cavanaugh,
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  Speaker 1: since since her Cavanaugh support, and a few other things,
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  Speaker 1: she is in some ways. You know, used to be
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  Speaker 1: Lisa Murkowski in Susan Collins, it was almost they were interchangeable.
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  Speaker 1: They're not so interchangeable anymore. I think Lisa Murkowski really
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  Speaker 1: is more of a political independent than a partisan. I
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  Speaker 1: think she almost says it herself. She coxes with Republicans
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  Speaker 1: because that's where she's caucused. You know, one of the
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  Speaker 1: more intriguing potential post election storylines I think of twenty
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  Speaker 1: twenty six is if Democrats net three seats and it's
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  Speaker 1: a fifty to fifty Senate with j Evans breaking the tie.
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  Speaker 1: I promise you before that Senate is sworn in, Chuck
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  Speaker 1: Schumer and other Democrats are going to be all over
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  Speaker 1: Lisa Murkowski to see if they can get her to
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  Speaker 1: switch parties. So, you know, there's always been a small
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  Speaker 1: part of me that thinks that Democrats actually have to
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  Speaker 1: need three sentence seats get to fifty to fifty than
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  Speaker 1: at that point they might be able to convince Lisa
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  Speaker 1: Murkowski to hand power over to the Democrats. Will that happen? Unlikely?
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  Speaker 1: Is that more probable possible than people realize? Yes, it is.
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  Speaker 1: She herself has opened that door, Lisa Murkowski.
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  Speaker 2: That is so.
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  Speaker 1: The point is with Susan Collins. Look, what's interesting about
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  Speaker 1: the Susan Collins development is the fact that Donald Trump
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  Speaker 1: will simultaneously complain about Susan Collins when she votes against
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  Speaker 1: him on certain things, but does not get so angry
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  Speaker 1: that he searches for a challenger. Right. He found a
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  Speaker 1: primary challenger to Murkowski, Right, and that's when she ended
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  Speaker 1: up running and winning as a write in. And you know,
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  Speaker 1: there was tea party movement. They've tried to get rid
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  Speaker 1: of Makowski and they have failed. He has never done
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  Speaker 1: that with Susan Collins. It's almost as if even though
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  Speaker 1: there's sort of a mini Trump in that state in
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  Speaker 1: Paula Page, the former governor who's running for the what
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  Speaker 1: is now an open second congressional district with Jared Golden
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  Speaker 1: not seeking reelection, and yet that is never that it is.
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  Speaker 1: It's fascinating that Republicans in the Senate on the campaign
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  Speaker 1: side of things, Tim Scott John Thune in particular, have
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  Speaker 1: been able to get him to be pragmatic about Susan Collins.
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  Speaker 1: But really, nowhere else does he get this pragmatic right.
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  Speaker 1: He has not been this pragmatic in Louisiana, He's not
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  Speaker 1: been this pragmatic in Texas, but he's willing to be
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  Speaker 1: this pragmatic. Wasn't willing to be this pragmatic in North Carolina,
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  Speaker 1: but he was willing to be this pragmatic in May.
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  Speaker 1: Perhaps they realized she is the only candidate that can
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  Speaker 1: remotely have a chance at winning. I'm pretty pessimistic about
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  Speaker 1: her chances because she is entering this campaign with sort
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  Speaker 1: of the She's acquiring the same problem that Mitch McConnell
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  Speaker 1: and Chuck Schumer are both experiencing in poll numbers to
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  Speaker 1: this day, and that is the base of her own
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  Speaker 1: party is not happy with her, and the base of
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  Speaker 1: the other party is very angry with her. Right, Mitch
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  Speaker 1: McConnell's numbers are extraordinarily low, or we're extraordinarily low, because
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  Speaker 1: he simultaneously had the entire Democratic Party hating him and
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: the Trump wing of the Republican Party not liking him,
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  Speaker 1: So it made his negatives look even worse. Chuck Schumer
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  Speaker 1: is starting to experience that where the base of the
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  Speaker 1: Democratic Party is no fan of Chuck Schumer these days,
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  Speaker 1: and they are more likely to rate him negatively than positively.
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  Speaker 1: And of course the entire Republican Party is pretty nenti Schumer,
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  Speaker 1: so it in some ways makes his numbers look worse.
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  Speaker 1: And that's the situation that that I wonder while she's
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  Speaker 1: I don't think Susan Collins has got the super negatives
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  Speaker 1: on the right, she does so on the left. And
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  Speaker 1: and this is the first time where I don't think
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  Speaker 1: she starts, you know, she starts easily with the lowest
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  Speaker 1: personal favorable rating that she's ever had in trying to
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  Speaker 1: seek reelection. So I think this is an uphill battle
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  Speaker 1: for her. But the fact of the matter is, had
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  Speaker 1: she not sought reelection, the seat's done.
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  Speaker 2: You know.
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  Speaker 1: If anything, it just becomes a you know, it's the
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  Speaker 1: big primary fight between Graham Platner and Janet Mills. Now
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  Speaker 1: that's not the case, and it makes you know, this
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  Speaker 1: is probably a good day for Janet Mills. H If
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: there is a if, if there's a growing belief that
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  Speaker 1: that Graham Plattner's mouth has gotten him in too much
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  Speaker 1: trouble and it provides too much baggage, and that it's
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  Speaker 1: the wrong the wrong profile to be running against Collins,
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  Speaker 1: you know that there will be the conventional wisdom crowd
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  Speaker 1: will gravitate more to Mills. Now I'm sort of torn
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  Speaker 1: on this, right, I think there is an out I
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  Speaker 1: think we're in an outsider insider phase and if you're
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  Speaker 1: the outsider, you're in a better position than if you're
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  Speaker 1: the insider. Right, And in some ways, Grant Platner could
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  Speaker 1: run the campaign he runs against Mills. It's the same
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  Speaker 1: campaign he runs against Collins. And my guess is that's
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  Speaker 1: the campaign he tries to do. As a primary voter,
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  Speaker 1: Mills has a tougher job. She's got to both defend
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: a little bit of her own incumbency and then at
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  Speaker 1: the same time, you know, does she is it just
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: purely a character campaign against Platner, which doesn't always work
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: in competitive primaries, so it's it's complicated. I think it
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  Speaker 1: certainly will help her financially, help her organizationally. That's Janet Mills.
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  Speaker 1: But if you're Platner, you do get to put the
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: campaign together. That was sort of where it's very much
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: emblematic of what Trump did in sixteen, right. He he
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: ran against both the Bushes and the Clintons all at
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: the same time, so it gave him a little extra
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: appeal from that sort of outsider. And you know, I
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: always think about the main independent as sort of the
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: In my head, I always think of the Petrick Farm guy.
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  Speaker 1: That that the cranky and this is I'm going to
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: date myself, but some of you will remember the sad
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: campaign of the cranky old man who used to sell
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: Petrick Farm cookies. That's you know that, you know, kind
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  Speaker 1: of a crank. And I always think of the New
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: England crank a little bit, and it's, you know, that's
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  Speaker 1: the that's the main swing voter. There's a little crankiness
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  Speaker 1: to him. And I do think Platner and Collins both
• 12:46
  Speaker 1: know how to appeal to that cranky, cranky person. But
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: I do think that that's so it's it's you know,
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: is this is this a left right election or is
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: this an inside outside election right? And I think if
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: it's the inside outside thing is what I think is
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: is Platiner's is Platiner's strength there. But either way, it
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: the fact is, you know, Republicans are breathing a huge
• 13:13
  Speaker 1: sigh of relief, especially given in a week where the
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: developments in Texas are just terrible for them. Right, You've
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: got Ken Paxton getting the endorsement of the Turning Point organization,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: just giving him his first sort of first sort of
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: official endorsement from more of the Trump wing of the party.
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: Trump hasn't weighed in yet, but it is it is,
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  Speaker 1: you know, I am I am surprised Turning Point wants
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: to associate themselves with Ken Paxton and his questionable character,
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: not just personal morals, professional ethics like that. I you know,
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: I thought they might stay out considering how competitive this
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: primary is in but that maybe just driven by a
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: rank and file, could be driven by donors. But either way,
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: it's a big get for Paxxton because it kind of
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: like he hasn't gotten many endorsements. He seems to me
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: like an illegitimate candidate for office, given that he was impeached,
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: although he never was not convicted, but the stuff around
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: him is really some ugly stuff.
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  Speaker 2: So I am.
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: Mildly surprised that they went with him, though I know
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: that as far as the type of the way he
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: wants to pursue conservative a little bit of that pugilistic,
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: aggressive nature of politics is something I think that appeals
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: to Turning Point the Turning Point crowd a little bit.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: But I thought maybe they wouldn't want to be associated
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: with what is Paxton's really questionable morals and ethics on
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: that one. But look, that's either way. Republicans do have
• 14:48
  Speaker 1: a mess on their hands in Texas, and the only
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: thing that they've got going from in Texas is that
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: the Democrats have a bit of a mess, and the
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: last thing they need is a racially divisive primary on
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: that side. And it's Tallerico's trying to calm the waters
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: there after he was quoted as insulting Colin already, a
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: former Senate candidate who's now running for a congressional seat.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: And look, already I think there was some hope pre
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: slight from tallar Rico that already would have supported tol Rico.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: I think ideologically he fit there. But now he's a
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: Jasmine Crockett supporter, so you do have that mess there.
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: The other interesting development over the week is Alexander Vinman,
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: the retirement retired Army lieutenant colonel, kicked off his Florida
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: Senate bid. He's, of course, was he was the whistleblower
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: that helped launch the first impeachment on Trump when it
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: came to the quid pro quote that Trump was demanding
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: from Zelenski during twenty eighteen twenty nineteen. You know, we'll
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: see I don't think of Vinman as a Floridian, but
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: you know that is not We've we've had Floridians, you know,
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: are Floridians are used to people sort of parachuting into
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: campaigns that you didn't know they were Florida natives. You're like, oh,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: I didn't know Rick Scott was a Floridian or I
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: didn't know, you know, So it is not unusual for that.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: And there's there can be a penalty in a primary
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: maybe if it's a local race, but there's less of
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: a penalty for for sort of becoming a new Floridian
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: on the on the state wide race. It's same in
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: Arizona Nevada. It's like the states where there are a
• 16:35
  Speaker 1: lot of people who aren't native who move, who choose
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: to move there. You know, politically, that's a problem if
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: you're a newcomer in a Michigan or even in a
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: South Carolina or a Mississippi or an Arkansas. It is
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: not a penalty if you're a Floridian an Arizona. I mean,
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: look at Arizona senators, most of them. You know. John
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: McCain you know, was hit with being a carpetbagger when
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: he first ran, and he said, you're right. The place
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: I've had residents the longest was in the Hanoi Hilton,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: So you know it, it sort of blew up in
• 17:05
  Speaker 1: their face when they hit den Mark. Kelly was able
• 17:09
  Speaker 1: to dodge. You know that he was a newcomer as well.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: It's sort of an accept you know, it's accepted there
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: because there's a lot of residents in those states that
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: choose to move there. But Vinman can raise some money nationally,
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: and he might be able to raise a ton of money,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: and I you know, I think this is one of
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: those on the on the watch list because you do
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: have an appointed senator situation there in Ashley Moody, and
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: that's you know, she's just not as well known yet.
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: So let's see if Vinman can raise money closer to
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: how val Demmings did against Marco Ruby. And now, look
• 17:48
  Speaker 1: DEM's don't do well against Rubio at the ballot box,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: but financially she she raised quite a bit of money.
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: Whether Vinman can do that is he sort of is
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: it too old of an impeachment for people to care
• 18:01
  Speaker 1: in the blue donor world. We'll see. But that's a
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: that's an intriguing potential development. And it's sort of like
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: I said, you sort of keep an eye on it.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: You check in, you see if if it has much. Look,
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: Vinman is the profile of the type of Democrat that
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: can win in light red states. I think the fair
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: question is is Florida's still a light red state. I
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: think it still is, but we're going to we'll find
• 18:27
  Speaker 1: out this cycle how light red it is. Right. I
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: expect Republicans to win most of those state wide offices,
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: but is it with fifty two to fifty three or
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: is it with fifty seven to fifty eight? Right? And
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: that tells you light red dark red?
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: In a national environment like this, that's going to have
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: the win that the Democrats back. You know, it's if democrat.
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: If Democrats can't hold Republicans to the low fifties in
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: an environment like this in Florida, then maybe it will
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: be time to write the state off for state wide election.
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: So he is a good profile of a candidate that
• 19:01
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  Speaker 1: And then one other development sort of builds on what
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  Speaker 1: I said on Monday, and I turned it into my
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: substack newsletter lead on Tuesday is the fact that the House.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I think the House has slipped away from the Republicans.
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: I think the question now isn't whether Democrats get control
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: of the House. The question is whether it's by a
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: big margin or a small margin. And when you just look,
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: it's just more the data is screaming it right. We've
• 22:24
  Speaker 1: hit fifty one open seats, right, Thirty of them or
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Republican open seats. Twenty of them are Democratic open seats.
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: But the fact that we've crossed fifty this is only
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: a third time ever we've had this many retirements, and
• 22:35
  Speaker 1: the other two times saw massive turnover and massive gains
• 22:41
  Speaker 1: for the out party, if you will, including a flip
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: in eighteen for the Democrats and a near and then
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: essentially what happened in ninety two when you had sixty
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: five open seats, and I'm going to get to that
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: a little bit later in this broadcast, that it's still
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: led to huge churn, which of course gave Republicans the
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: moment them to end up picking flipping the House for
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the first time in forty odd years, come nineteen ninety four.
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: So and when you look there, I've put some great
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: charts in the substact you used to take a look
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: at it of just everything is pointing towards a Democratic flip.
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: The only thing preventing this at this point is something
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: changes the entire political environment right a massive And you know,
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: when you look at the two exceptions of when the
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: party in the White House in the last sort of
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: fifty years that the Party in the White House actually
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: did well in a midterm, you had two outside events
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: that totally scrambled the sort of the normal pattern of
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: American politics ninety eight and the Monica Lewinsky scandal, an
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: impeachment attempt which boomeranged on Republicans and ended up helping Democrats.
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: And then twenty oh two, the first election that we
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: held post nine to eleven, which where George W. Bush
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: was still sitting over sixty percent. Essentially, both Bill Clinton
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: and George W. Bush in those two midterms approval ratings
• 24:06
  Speaker 1: in the sixties. So then you have to ask yourself,
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: what would it take for Donald Trump's approval rating? Forget
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: the sixties, what would it take for him to get
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: to fifty or fifty one. Well, the only thing you
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: can think of is some sort of crisis where there's
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: a rally around the flag effect, and he certainly makes
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: it a little bit harder I think, for Independence to
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: rally around him, But it would have to be something
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: outside an extraordinary event. The point is all the data
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: here is showing the only thing we don't know is
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: it a small Democratic majority, is are going to be
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: a big one. And what's interesting there is Democrats are
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: starting to feel cocky. The d tripleC just on Tuesday
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: morning added five new seats to their target list, and
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: they were all seats that Trump won by double digits.
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: In these new seats that they added, including Ryan Zinke's
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: seat in Montana, which I think is an interesting one,
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: a more rural, the old Tim Wall's seat that went
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: Republican in Minnesota's first district, the open Charleston seat, the
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: Nancy May seat in South Carolina, one which was held
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: by a Democrat a couple of times this century, Joe Cunningham,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: a retired member of Congress there, but it actually had
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: been redistricted and made a bit more Republican. So the
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: fact that they think they can get that on the
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: ballot and then they throw a Virginia seat in there, which,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: of course Virginia is all getting scrambled. Is the Democrats
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: are redrawing a map that's going to make it very
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: beneficial to them. But the point is is that when
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: you look at this political environment we've seen the special elections,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: I do think any district that Donald Trump carried with
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: fifty nine percent or less is theoretically in play as
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: long as his approval ratings are sitting at forty four
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: and below. And that's the situation we're staring at, which
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: is why you see Democrats doing that. I think the
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: thing to watch on the Republican side is when do
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: they get to when do they get to the point
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: that Democrats got to in twenty twenty two, there was
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: a point where Democrats knew they were going to lose
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: the House. So then it became a mitigation, right, you
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: were just mitigating your losses. And they started messing around
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: on Republican primaries and they got some really bad nomine
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: helped get some really bad Republican nominees into general elections,
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: which allowed them to win in some places that they
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: probably wouldn't have won had literally there just been a
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: generic Republican on the ticket. I think you're going to
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: see because the only thing standing in the way of
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: Democrats having a big night versus a small knight is
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: if they have flawed nominees, and if they somehow the
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: nominees are so flawed that Republicans can make those flaws
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: part of the general election conversation. Right, the more this
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: is a referendum on Trump and the more generic the
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: messaging is on a national front, advantaged Democrats if Republicans
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: can somehow, and it may only be a race by
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: race situation, but you want to put yourself and what
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: Democrats did in twenty two by mitigating, by getting involved
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: in Republican primaries, they were able to limit their losses
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: and make both twenty four and twenty six biable campaigns
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: to try to win control of Congress. That's the situation
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: Republicans find. They just they can't afford to let this
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: slip away. They can't afford Democrats picking up twenty five
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: to forty seats, right, because that gives them padding going
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: into twenty eight, and it probably cements a House majority
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: at least for two cycles. I know, we've been very
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: tumultuous over the last over the century. In fact, if
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: the House changes hands again, this will be the fifth
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: time the House has changed hands this century. The House
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: only changed hands twice in fifty in the last fifty
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: years of the twentieth century, so we are definitely living
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: in more tumultuous times. Finally, I want to close a
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: little bit on the absurdity. It's sort of and I'm
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: going to come at this from my crankiness about about
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: politics and about congressional politics, which is, you know, do
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: you are you trying to pass a bill or are
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: you trying to raise money? And when the Democrats had there,
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: And what I want to do is I want to
• 28:22
  Speaker 1: do a little comparison here. Right, the Republicans are trying
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: to shove through this SAVE Act. It's called the Safeguard
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: American Voter Eligibility Act, and it's been boiled down to
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: just this is about voter ID. It's not about voter
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: I D if this were simply about voter ID, like
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: should you have to show voter ID at the polls
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: to get your ballot? Which I do in the state
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: of Virginia. Quite a few states already mandate this. Let's
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: say you said that at the fedigram and that and
• 28:46
  Speaker 1: that it was just a standalone bill, not you have
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: to produce a birth certificate. I'm just saying, just produce
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: your you know, a passport or driver's license or you
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: know ID before you get your ballot. You get bipartis
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: and support to that. But that is not what this
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: bill does. This bill wants to complicate the ability to
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: even register to vote. Right. Look, it's difficult to go
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: get a driver's license and you've got to prove you've
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: got to bring a birth certificate. I remember that's the
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: last I think the last time you bring a birth certificate,
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: driver's license, and potentially to get a passport. We've never
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: had it be used to try to get a voter
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: registration card. And so that that's, you know, among the
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: things it's trying to do. And the thing is is
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: that both parties took their voter bills right. The Democrats
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: essentially wanted to what they really wanted to do with
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: their first HR one right, what was the thing that
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: had the most support, But what had most support is
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: to create a minimum amount of windows for early voting
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: in all fifty states. Right, you're not mandating that it
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: has to be this way in all but a minimum
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: like fifteen days. That you've got to provide a fifteen
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: days of early voting windows. But then how you go
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: about doing it is up to you. Do you want
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: to do it in person, you want to do it,
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: whatever it is. But they threw in this other stuff, right,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: the Democrats wanted to do public funding of elections, which
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: was not very popular. They wanted to throw in other
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: things like that. And that's the thing. Both parties are
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: using these election bills to put other stuff in there.
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: They're not interested in actually passing and actually passing it. Instead,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: there's all these poison pills. I think the if Democrats
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: had simply pursued and this is where I get this
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: is where can't we have some pragmatism in any of
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: our politics, in any of our election rules. If you
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: gave a bill that did the following, Okay, you had
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: a show voter idea to go to the polls, and
• 30:55
  Speaker 1: then you did what Democrats want, which is every voter
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: in every state would have the right to vote by
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: mail for any reason, no excuse absentee voting, and fifteen
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: days of early voting. You do that and maybe you
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: agree that, Hey, and you've got to get your battled
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: in by election day. There's no there's no fudging that, right,
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: you got to put that you vote. I d there is,
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: you know, in the old days of give each side
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: gets something that they care about, but that that isn't
• 31:24
  Speaker 1: what anybody's interested in. Nobody seems to be that interested
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: in actually passing any of these reforms. And the only
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: way you're going to get reforms like this is if
• 31:33
  Speaker 1: you do one at a time and you start from
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: the middle out, and you know, and you start from
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: sort of common sense pragmatism. People want convenience voting. We're
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: very busy. They want that and they do. Hey, we
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: show our ID almost everywhere else. They don't think that
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: that's an extra burden. But again, right, this is not
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: about showing your birth certificate. And that is So the
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: point is is that there's a there's a path here
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: to pass sort of pragmatic, reasonable reforms that both create
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: more conveniences to voting. And I know some philosophically think
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: other you shouldn't make voting convenient, right, but hey, you know,
• 32:15
  Speaker 1: we live in a very very large and diverse country.
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: And I promise you if you put it, if you
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: made everybody vote on the same day, it would take
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: even longer for election days to finish, it would take
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: even longer to count our votes, and there would be
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: a lot more distrust to it. So there is a
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: path to do some common sense reforms. If Republicans really
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: cared about voter id the most as much they say it,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: they do it as a standalone vote. And if Democrats
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: cared enough just simply about allowing for more access to
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: voting so that there's more opportunity for vote by mail
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: and more opportunity for early voting, they'd have made it
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: stand alone. But they didn't make it. Neither side made
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: it stand alone. The poison pills that were involved in
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: either the Save Act or the HR one were features,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: not bucks. And yes, you can jam it through in
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: the House, because the House is always the most partisan
• 33:09
  Speaker 1: side for either party, and it is the Senate where
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: you have a harder time doing this. But if you
• 33:15
  Speaker 1: did this piecemeal, you'd have a better idea, and you
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: might have you might have a stronger leg to stand
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: on when you accuse the other side of not being
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: interested in these In these issues. All right, I'm gonna
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: put a pin in there, so I just like I said,
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: I had a pot poree of campaign stuff that I
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: thought was worthy of a bit up chewing over for
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: a few minutes with you guys. But now we'll stake
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: it a break. And my conversation with John Conyer's the
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: third on his book that is about his father, the
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: legendary congressman from Michigan of the Civil rights era, but
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: as much about the culture of growing up in a
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: political world and sort of at birth being given a
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: name that suddenly makes you think you already have your
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: career path in front of you. Like I said, it's
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: an interesting and candid conversation. I think you'll enjoy it.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: I'll see on the other side. This episode of the
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  Speaker 1: insurance is something you should really think about, especially if
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: you've got a growing family. So when you see the
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: title of this book written by my next guest here,
• 37:42
  Speaker 1: it's called My Father's House, and you see the last
• 37:45
  Speaker 1: name of Conyers, and you're a political sophisticate or junkie
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: like myself, you probably think you already know what kind
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: of book this is. Oh, it must be a political biography,
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: a celebration, a civil rights victory lab maybe even a
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: defense of some sort. This book is none of these.
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: This isn't really a book about John Conyers, the legendary
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: member of Congress from Detroit, even though he was one
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: of the most consequential figures of the modern civil rights era.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: What this is is a book about what it's like
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: to grow up inside power, to inherit a legacy. You
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: didn't choose to live in a house built by history,
• 38:19
  Speaker 1: and to discover that some rooms were never safe to
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: enter and some conversations were never allowed to happen. John
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: Conyer's third doesn't write as an apologist, and he doesn't
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: write as a provocateur either. He writes as a son
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: trying to understand how a public giant could be both
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: indispensable to a movement and deeply complicated in private. This
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: is a fascinating book, and it's and John Conyre's a third,
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: the son of the late John Conyers Junior, really opened
• 38:54
  Speaker 1: himself up in here. And John Conyer's the third author
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: of My Father's House, joins me. Now, John, good to
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: see you.
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: To see you as well, Thank you for having me.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: It's an honor to be here.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: Well, let me start with that introduction I gave your
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: book because look, I opened it assuming one thing, and
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: after going through it, you're like, Okay, I'm you wrote
• 39:14
  Speaker 1: a book that I wish Al Gore had written. You
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: wrote a book that I've always wanted to know if
• 39:21
  Speaker 1: Harold Ford Jr. Wanted to write this. I really am
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: fascinated by those who basically were raised in power. Right,
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: it wasn't a choice, Right, Your career path was destined
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: for you perhaps, or or at least the path was
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: cleared if you chose to take it. Yeah, I think
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: you offered an insider account in a way that I'd
• 39:48
  Speaker 1: never seen before. So I'll shut up now and tell me.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Tell me whether that intro did capture the book.
• 39:56
  Speaker 3: It captured it well. First, I would say that I
• 40:00
  Speaker 3: would offer and thank you for grasping that nuance. So
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: many of the conversations that I've had about the book
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: to the point you made about assuming or presuming that
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: it would be strictly about my father, the conversations have
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: been just that, only about him. And I don't know
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: whether the whether the interview or only read for that.
• 40:24
  Speaker 3: But what's tucked away in the book is like a
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: young person trying to make sense of this world and
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: make sense of this going between two worlds which I
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: touch on my mother's side of the family still being
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: somewhat in poverty, and me being trapped between these two
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: spaces and trying to make sense of.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: It all and find my place of it all. But yeah,
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, I'll start with I never intended to write a.
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: Book that was going to be And would you have
• 40:53
  Speaker 1: written this if he were alive?
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: No, I would have it would have this book would
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: have never been written by me if the things that
• 40:59
  Speaker 3: happened into seventeen don't happen. He we had we had
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: a book deal on the table with Hawshit, and it
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: was a very considerable book deal. And then literally as
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: we were finalizing and negotiating, all those things happened, and
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: so everything fundamentally changes.
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, this is when all those allegations get you know.
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: You not to lead with that, but no, and I
• 41:26
  Speaker 1: wasn't intending to do it. But it's funny you bring
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: it up. I have this. I have a small odd
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: story that goes with this, where the day that your
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: father announced that he was resigning, it was a Sunday morning. Yep.
• 41:42
  Speaker 1: I remember it quite well because I had Nancy Pelosi
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: on Meet the Press mm hm. The report had gotten out.
• 41:51
  Speaker 2: She did not know this yet, which.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: I found, or at least she claimed she didn't. I
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: don't quite know, and it really created quite the weird
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: Put it this way, she never would sit down with
• 42:03
  Speaker 1: an interview with me again over the circumstances of it,
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: because she was upset that she was supposed to be
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: on to talk about one thing. This happened, and of
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: course it's breaking news, and you know, she didn't like
• 42:18
  Speaker 1: you know, the news business can be inconvenient to politicians.
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: I get it, you know that that sort of but
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: it was, you know, it was just it's just one
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: of those She was always upset that she didn't get
• 42:31
  Speaker 1: to talk about what she wanted to talk about in
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: that moment. But boy, since we're there, take me there.
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: Did he feel pressure to resign? I always got the
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: sense he didn't want to resign.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: Oh, I guess she's not running again.
• 42:48
  Speaker 1: I'll be tackful.
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: I'll be tactful. I won't.
• 42:50
  Speaker 3: I will.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: The breaking news that you got.
• 42:57
  Speaker 3: That you confronted her with. Talk about the butterfly effect.
• 43:02
  Speaker 3: There was, and I allude to it in the book.
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: I don't address it directly because that member of my
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: family and I have men defenses, so I tried very
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: hard not to do anything that will, you know, harm
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: that relationship or cause another fissure, if you will. But
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: that person was on the outside looking in, and the
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: moment they were they got a little bit of daylight,
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: and we gave them any bit of information. They ran,
• 43:28
  Speaker 3: and they was someone they went to college with was
• 43:31
  Speaker 3: a journalist at the New York Times. They tried to
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: get in front of me or my father announcing that
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: I would be running for.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: A seat, which I had not decided yet.
• 43:42
  Speaker 3: I did not know if I wanted to run for
• 43:43
  Speaker 3: office or if I was ready. Part of why I
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: had never run for office to that point was because
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: I knew who I was. I was a former songwriter.
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: My work experience started in the music business, and so
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: there's a there is a level of calming down or
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: a mellowing out that I was not fully prepared to
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: do coming from that lifestyle, which I knew was was
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: required to be in public office. And so that person says, yes,
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: my great uncle is retiring and I'm going to run
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: for his seat, which then turns into my pation that
• 44:18
  Speaker 3: you got yah, which then she confronted. She was confronted with,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: but if we are being honest, which I didn't put
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: in the book because for a myriad of reasons, my
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: father was pressured to retire.
• 44:33
  Speaker 2: Course he was, Yeah, and.
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: I think I think the frustrating thing is to the
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: point of the book, which it was never I shouldn't
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: say it was never supposed to happen, because it ultimately happened,
• 44:44
  Speaker 3: and I believe in all the things what's supposed to
• 44:47
  Speaker 3: happen happens.
• 44:48
  Speaker 2: We talked to my father about retiring.
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: Ten years prior to this, because he had a series
• 44:54
  Speaker 3: of strokes in two thousand and nine minus like small ones.
• 44:57
  Speaker 3: And so my uncle, my mother, my self and another
• 45:02
  Speaker 3: gentleman who lives in se sat down with him and
• 45:04
  Speaker 3: we were like, you know, you should retire, consider writing
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: a book. My father wouldn't hear it, primarily because I
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: think when you think about like a professional athlete, or
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: even someone like yourself or Tony Kornheiser, who, like my
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: life is wrapped up in this thing that I do,
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: it's your identity.
• 45:18
  Speaker 2: You No.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: I go back, you know, John, when I was a kid.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: I remember the first instance of something like this happening
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: for me in the memory I have is Bear Bryant.
• 45:26
  Speaker 1: Bear Bryan announces he's going to retire. The guy died
• 45:29
  Speaker 1: before the next football season. Joe Paterno resigns. He dies
• 45:35
  Speaker 1: before the start of the next football season, so there
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: had been this. You do hear this, and I buy it.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: I think when you're older, you're afraid that the minute
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: you don't have that reason to get up in the morning,
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: that it might all end. So I get it. I
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: understand why coaches hang on. I understand why journalists hang on.
• 45:54
  Speaker 1: But you know what, it never gets better. The exit
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: never gets better.
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: This is true, I think, and I think I would
• 46:01
  Speaker 3: say that, not not guilt, but I was diagnosed with
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: ADHD and being you know, also on the spectrum diagnosed
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: with that later in life.
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: So there is the neurotypical way of communicating or.
• 46:18
  Speaker 3: My ability to perceive things, or my awareness of my
• 46:24
  Speaker 3: difference in cognition coming to terms of that are being
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: able to perceive that so that I can act on
• 46:31
  Speaker 3: it and be more try to be more perceptive and
• 46:34
  Speaker 3: more present. Didn't come until one of them came prior
• 46:40
  Speaker 3: to my father's passing. The autism piece came on just
• 46:43
  Speaker 3: a year ago or two a year and a half
• 46:44
  Speaker 3: ago now, right, And so there are things that I
• 46:49
  Speaker 3: think my father was alive for maybe five years or
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: two years after his retirement. But there was a there
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: was a there was a top piece, a window that
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: I wish that I had more awareness of the kind
• 47:02
  Speaker 3: of mental things that I was grappling with to be
• 47:05
  Speaker 3: able to kind of take that mantle, because there was
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: an attempt to pass it to me and I wasn't aware.
• 47:11
  Speaker 3: I wasn't ready for it, if in no small part
• 47:14
  Speaker 3: because I couldn't perceive it for what it was in
• 47:16
  Speaker 3: the moment.
• 47:18
  Speaker 1: So talk about the decision to write this book, because
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: I'm sure, like, look, you you chose to make some
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: things public that I'm guessing not every member of your
• 47:29
  Speaker 1: family wanted public.
• 47:32
  Speaker 3: Sure, yeah, but yeah, yes, sure, I think that I
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: wouldn't have been the book that I would feel comfortable
• 47:40
  Speaker 3: with if I didn't, though, because in order to there's
• 47:48
  Speaker 3: the perception of the person, as you very well know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 3: being a public person, there is the perception of who
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: you are and what your lived experiences and what your
• 47:54
  Speaker 3: life experience is.
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: Versus what the reality of it is.
• 47:57
  Speaker 3: So when you hear John Conyers, long serving black American
• 48:00
  Speaker 3: congressmen in American history, especially within the black community and
• 48:05
  Speaker 3: then especially within Detroit, there the people automatically conflate privileged
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: with wealth and privilege with money, and that is not
• 48:13
  Speaker 3: my lived experience it's funny.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: Well that's Washington for you. Right. You should have a
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: conversation with my son, because you know he's he's in
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: college now and and he's starting to get this more
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: and he realizes this. But you know, he was called
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: you know, I grew up you know, pretty working class
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: is probably you know, grew up in apartment buildings and
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: all that stuff. And I had a good life. Okay,
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: my parents tried their best. And when my son got
• 48:44
  Speaker 1: hit for being a NEPO baby, I'm like, what right?
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: And and I'm sure and I and I always felt
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: terrible about that, like he doesn't get to be his
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: own person. And so I wonder this is clearly what
• 48:57
  Speaker 1: frustrates you is that you feel as if so many
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: people just assume they know who you are, who you
• 49:02
  Speaker 1: should be, just because of what your name is.
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: So I have coined a phrase now, or a phrase
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: that I use when people say you have big shoes,
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: if I said, legacy is not footwear. It's a direction, right,
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: good line, because so many people one the thing we
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: already talking about the perception of who you are.
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: They have this.
• 49:25
  Speaker 3: Projection onto you of like if they were you, what
• 49:28
  Speaker 3: they would have done and who they would be by now,
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: and all these things and then the other pieces of
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: the thing.
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: That you're talking about with your with your son. It's like.
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: People don't even give give you the time of day,
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: and then it's always the goal post is always moving.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: Like you know, even now when I tell people what
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: I've done, there is this there is this doubt or
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: that's not enough, that like, well I've done all these things,
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: well that's not enough, or you only did them because
• 49:52
  Speaker 3: of your dad, And it's like no.
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: Matter what you get, whatever it is, you get questioned
• 49:57
  Speaker 1: either you should have done more, or well whatever you did,
• 50:01
  Speaker 1: you started on third base.
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I think and I'm even sensitive to talk
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: about it now because of how it would be perceived.
• 50:10
  Speaker 1: And I think you just you just come to there's
• 50:12
  Speaker 1: no good answer. You can't. And you know what I
• 50:16
  Speaker 1: would tell you, don't talk about it publicly. It's not fair,
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: but not you just can't because there are people who
• 50:22
  Speaker 1: have It goes to My wife's got this saying everybody's
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: problems are problems for them, and just because somebody else's
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: problems wouldn't be problems in your life doesn't mean they're
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: not problems in their life.
• 50:33
  Speaker 2: Correct, and yet we.
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: Have a hard time. I can't tell you I'd love
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: your problems, okay, and I probably love your problems.
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: You know, right.
• 50:46
  Speaker 3: But yeah, I think the experience that I've had as
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: John Connors, that they're a part of it, is that
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: I feel a tremendous regardless of the the negative things
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: that come with it and the challenges, I think I
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: feel a profound sense of responsibility and duty as primarily
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: as a generational bridge, because my father was so much
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: older when he had me. I feel a profound, profound
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: sense of duty and responsibility to make sure that the generation,
• 51:20
  Speaker 3: my generation and those coming behind me understand that the
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: things that they were born with, the rights and opportunities
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: that they were born with, were not always that way,
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: and that we have a we have an obligation to
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: the people that came before us to not only maintain
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: but to further their work and to further the.
• 51:39
  Speaker 2: Freedoms that we have for young people that we gained
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: for young people.
• 51:43
  Speaker 1: What did you learn about your dad in this product?
• 51:45
  Speaker 1: In the problem striding this book.
• 51:47
  Speaker 2: I learned so much. I mean, primarily, I think.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: To bring to mention sports and thinking about Cornheiser, there's
• 51:56
  Speaker 3: a there's a there's a gentleman playing basketball right now
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: who's the all time leading scorer that I think is amazing.
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: Do not?
• 52:04
  Speaker 3: I think he's the greatest basketball player of all time,
• 52:07
  Speaker 3: primarily because like, if you are that person, the world
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: will tell you. You don't have to tell us, right, And
• 52:14
  Speaker 3: so I think that to make the analogy, my father
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: was someone who didn't have to tell you how great
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: he was. He would tell me stories, right, And what
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: I learned in this process is that he's exactly who
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: he thought he was.
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: Like, when I'm hearing I think it's in the book
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: the LBJ story about getting air Force one.
• 52:38
  Speaker 2: He told told me they start off the cuff, right.
• 52:40
  Speaker 3: And mind you, I'm an adult now when he's telling
• 52:43
  Speaker 3: me the story, and I've Clinton's called the house at
• 52:46
  Speaker 3: two in the morning, all the things have happened, right,
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: So I know that he's important.
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: You've lived this. Let you're aware. Yeah, my dad hangs
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: out with presidents. That's what happens.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but this point in time, remember this point in
• 52:57
  Speaker 3: time when he's talking to LBJ, it's still still right movement.
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: He's not a senior member of Congress to be able
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: to call the president and say, hey, I need Air
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: Force one. But my dad's first chief of staff campaign
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: manager for his first campaign is telling me this story
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: independent of my dad, and I'm like, oh, wait, he's not.
• 53:17
  Speaker 2: This is just like, this is an everyday thing, is
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: just what I do.
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: And to know to be privy to a person that
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: was able to move through the world like that and
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: also not be boastful about it, to me, it's like, oh, yeah,
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: this is the model. And to know to learn all
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: these things about him that, like, it was just mind blowing.
• 53:43
  Speaker 3: It's mind blowing.
• 53:44
  Speaker 1: The remarkable thing to me when I think about our
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: politics today and our polarization of today, yeah, is we
• 53:53
  Speaker 1: were really polarized in the nineteen fifties and sixties, more
• 53:56
  Speaker 1: so arguably than we are today. And yet there was
• 54:03
  Speaker 1: optimism where we struggle to find optimism today, right. There
• 54:08
  Speaker 1: was also and this is something that I think, what
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: did you learn learn about what I would call incrementalism?
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: Like there was always like, Okay, let's let's win this
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: fight and we'll come back and fight another day, when
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: others in the movement would say let's get it all now.
• 54:27
  Speaker 1: So and to me, this is something progressive. Today's progressives
• 54:32
  Speaker 1: are having to relearn a story on how to how
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: to win a long term political struggle versus and realizing
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: that you're not gonna win every short term fight, but
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: how do you make every short term fight an attempt
• 54:47
  Speaker 1: to move the needle long term?
• 54:50
  Speaker 3: So this is I mean, I can I think about
• 54:52
  Speaker 3: Actually I was just thinking about this other day, the
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: advent of Twitter and how I think that is added
• 54:56
  Speaker 3: to the polarization not just of the the electric but
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: also be elected officials. But I think incrementalism is that's
• 55:06
  Speaker 3: the way of that's everyone's way of life.
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: You don't go to the gym. You don't go to
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: the gym on the first day and.
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: Walk out with washboard abs or able to you don't
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: walk into the gym.
• 55:16
  Speaker 2: When I started, I could only I.
• 55:17
  Speaker 1: Thought, if I inject something in my stomach, Now I
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: get it within a couple of weeks.
• 55:20
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, that's true.
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: True, I mean, we are we are weird. We're still
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: going to sell that dream regardless of whether it's true.
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: I think the polarization piece, and this is also part
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: of why I'm getting so engaged in politics. The way
• 55:36
  Speaker 3: I am these days, is that I was raising a
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: time where that wasn't the case. It was becoming that way, right.
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: I remember, I remember riding in a car with my mom.
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: Was now I'm dating my even myself where they still
• 55:50
  Speaker 3: have bench seats in the front in the front front seat.
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: Nothing like sitting in that middle seat right like where
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: you had to put the arm rests back up right
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: the arms come down.
• 55:59
  Speaker 2: So I'm sitting in the middle. We're in DC, We're
• 56:03
  Speaker 2: on Constitution AB.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: I'm looking directly at the Capitol building and I see,
• 56:09
  Speaker 3: I see between my mom and my dad listen to MPR.
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: I forget what was on NPR, but it triggered my
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: father to say, it wasn't always like that. It wasn't
• 56:16
  Speaker 3: like this until new Gingers became Speaker of the House,
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: where everything became a zero sum game, where it.
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: Was my way or the highway.
• 56:22
  Speaker 3: And I say that to say to the fully address
• 56:24
  Speaker 3: her question. I think that the reason why my generation
• 56:30
  Speaker 3: and younger feel that everything has to be won all
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: at once is because number one, I think corporate involvement
• 56:37
  Speaker 3: in politics and Democrats largely failing to deliver on promises.
• 56:43
  Speaker 3: Although they do great some great things, they largely to
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: deliver on their promises. But then the second thing, to
• 56:51
  Speaker 3: the point I made about always having these rights, They've
• 56:53
  Speaker 3: always had these things, so they don't know that it
• 56:56
  Speaker 3: was one over time because they.
• 56:57
  Speaker 2: Were born with it.
• 56:59
  Speaker 3: And I think, again, this is why I feel such
• 57:03
  Speaker 3: a sense of urgency to be involved, because I'm one
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: of like I don't I can't think of another person,
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: but I'm one of the only people that I know
• 57:11
  Speaker 3: of that is the son of a civil rights leader
• 57:13
  Speaker 3: that is also a millennial that got it firsthand.
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: I didn't read about it. It wasn't a story. It wasn't
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: It wasn't.
• 57:19
  Speaker 1: Because you're most of your peers are two generations removed.
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: Yes, so I I I heard about this firsthand, one
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: to one. My dad didn't say doctor King said, Martin
• 57:31
  Speaker 3: called him. I called Jesse Jackson, Uncle Jesse. So I'm
• 57:34
  Speaker 3: getting these stories from the actual guys. So to me
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: it feels like, oh, well, this is this is what
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: we're supposed to do. It it happens over time. Whereas again,
• 57:41
  Speaker 3: not to labor the point, but my peers they that's
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: all that's what they know.
• 57:55
  Speaker 2: How is, how.
• 57:56
  Speaker 1: Would you say your relationships with your any your head,
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: how is the relationship with your father.
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: Now I got more questions than I got answered now
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: after this book. I mean, I would love to uh,
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: I would love to know more than anything, how how
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: he had the ability to forge a path and move
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: forward on issues that were so far ahead of their time.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: In the In the it was there's a there's a
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: there's a newsletter.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: You know, they have these things where they put something
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: in the congressional record, And my dad did it via
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: like a newsletter that he circulated to all the members
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: of the House. And he was talking about the connection
• 58:46
  Speaker 3: between poverty and crime, right, and that No, that wasn't
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: a thing. That wasn't a thing back in the seventies
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: that people often correlated, right, And and so I would
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: love to know and have and be able to speak
• 59:01
  Speaker 3: with them about how are you able to get out
• 59:04
  Speaker 3: in front of these issues so early and then maintain
• 59:07
  Speaker 3: the effort and the stamina to continue to fight for them,
• 59:10
  Speaker 3: whether that's Medicare for All, whether that's reparations, whether that's
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: the MLK holiday, or even you know, one of his
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: lesser known piece of legislation, the Humphrey Hawkins Full Employment Bill.
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: These are things that like I just I want to
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: know and sure we could we could distial it down.
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: Well that's what was right, and that's what you do.
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: But like that's not what everybody does, So why did
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: you do it right? So most a lot of so
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: many politicians, we know them, we've been in proximity to them.
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: They sell out, So why didn't you? That's what I
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: would like to know.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: My dad died when I was sixteen, and the list
• 59:45
  Speaker 1: of questions I have for him. I'm fifty three now,
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: like kids just like you know, and you know, I'm
• 59:52
  Speaker 1: now flying blind for the first time, meaning my son
• 59:54
  Speaker 1: is now older than I was, So suddenly I have
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: a eye of a relationship with him that I can't emulate,
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 1: meaning I can't look back on how did my father night?
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: And we were fine up until and it's always been
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: in the amount of questions in it. And it's that's
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 1: why I asked that question when I asked about what
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: your relationship with him grateful? It is like I'm still
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 1: you know, I miss him. That's my relationship with him.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 1: I miss them, you know.
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: So I would add I would say that I and
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: what you said about you and your son triggered this
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: in my mind, is that I would say that I'm grateful.
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: I think that.
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: I had having an older father was truly a blessing
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 3: because I had him. He was young enough, like sixty
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 3: one is not young, but he was young enough to.
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: He was young enough to by the time I turned,
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: you know, five and six, he was still able to
• 1:00:52
  Speaker 3: throw a ball, throw football with me.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: I played baseball with him.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: You have those memories.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but my younger brother doesn't happen because my dad
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 3: was too old by that time.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 2: Brother's five years or anything.
• 1:01:03
  Speaker 3: Right, I would say that above all things he taught
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 3: me through what he emulated is that it's okay to
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 3: admit it wrong, it's okay to forgive people.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 2: It's like you and so you don't have to be
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: you have.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: I think in life you get a lot of wisdom.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: The older you get no matter what, So you got,
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the upside of having an older father said,
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: he lived more life.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 1:01:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the advice is passing down. Hey, he's he's
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: been around the block, not just once or twice, you know, right,
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: but it's sort of like, look, just trust me, yeah right,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 1: we're all this way with our kids when they go
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: off to college. You know, the longer they go to college.
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: The more they're the more they discover how right their
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: parents were right. And it's but it you know, you
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: have to make experience these things yourself many times. But
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: you really did have a luxury and an older father
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: in that sense.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I think the just the lessons that the
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 2: lessons that he taught me stick with me.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: And it's also kind of I'm grateful also to the
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: group of friends that I've had that I have, because
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: sometimes I would feel displaced because there's a level of
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 3: emotional maturity you get by being raised by an older person.
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 1: That I feel like you were always treated more like
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 1: an adult, get a bit more adult settings.
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: I always had yees, so I was correct.
• 1:02:21
  Speaker 3: So I think that like when I once I found
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: finally found my footing, especially in college, and I was
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: like I would say that I was a social butterfly
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: for sure, but finding a group that truly fit everything,
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: I didn't have to explain myself or I didn't have
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 3: to say less to fit in that was that was amazing.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: And it was because of the things that I learned
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 3: from him to be able to find the intellectually intellectual
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: friendships that match where I was, what.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 1: Kind of politician. Do you want people to see you
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 1: as and do you do you want folks to compare
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 1: you to your father?
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 3: So I was a philast major in college and Machiavelli
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: talks about not following in the footsteps of a great man.
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: Not to contradict my earliest statement.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: But I think I don't know that I would compare
• 1:03:15
  Speaker 3: me to my father because we're operating and two extremely
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: different times, although a lot of the similar issues.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 1: If directly, I know, sometimes we're so far away from
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 1: the movement, it feels very familiar.
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 3: It's directionally the same, right, But I think that the
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: mechanism by which we organize and we bring people together
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 3: maybe a little different.
• 1:03:41
  Speaker 1: But we are arguing about who's an American and what's America?
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: You know, what? How are we? You know?
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 3: I would say that in that regard, then you sure
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 3: you could compare me to my father, and in so
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 3: far as I would like for all of Americans to
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 3: understand uh and beyond and having honest conversation about who
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 3: and what built this country? Right, I think that, like
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 3: it's a controversial thing on Instagram right now about the
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 3: artistship who you're saying that immigants built this country, and
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 3: that's just not true.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 2: Black American slaves built this country.
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 3: Now, immigrants have contributed largely immeasurably to the fabric of
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 3: this nation. We can't whether it's the Irish immigrants, Italian immigrants, right,
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 3: we can't, We cannot, you know, African American African immigrants.
• 1:04:26
  Speaker 2: We can't deny that.
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: But the foundations, the foundational building out of this country.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: This country would not have had the economic advantage it
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 3: has had without that of slavery.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 2: And so I would say that there are.
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 3: Ways in which you can compare me to my father,
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 3: but I would prefer folks not to although I know
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: that that is inevitable. The type of politician I want
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: to be, I don't know this last thing I'll say.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 2: I don't mean to be long winded. The type of
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 2: politician I want to be.
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: We're doing a podcast, brother is why is.
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 3: One that brings people together? Where I learned from my
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 3: father's we build coalitions. We bring a large group of
• 1:04:59
  Speaker 3: people who have shared interests, similar interests. Right, we start
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: with where we where, where we agree. We don't focus
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 3: on where we disagreement, because where we find agreement is
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: how we build power collectively. And once we find that
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 3: we can work together on the things we agree about,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: then we can come together and hash out strategically how
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: we work through our disagreements. And that's the type of
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 3: politician I want to be. I think that's what's missing
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 3: from our government across all levels around the country.
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: One more personal question then I want to talk a
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 1: little politics of Michigan Detroit, be more forward looking, talk
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 1: about more and that is are you glad you share
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 1: your father's name or do you wish you didn't?
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 2: Oh my god, I'm so glad I share my father because.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 1: I think it's like I just think this is I've
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 1: always wondered. You know, it's both a It's both great
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 1: and a burden at the same time. I got a
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: no listen.
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 3: Any whether you're whatever, your privileges are, right, I know
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 3: about it.
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: You have a responsibility to utilize them.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 3: I think this is my personal feeling, like you have
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: a responsibility to leverage them and utilize them for good.
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 3: If my name were Michael Conyers, the doors that have
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: opened for me would not be the same full stop.
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 3: I would not have been able to introduce or help
• 1:06:19
  Speaker 3: the folks that I've been able to help. An aid
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: and support. If I don't think and maybe it would
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 3: be different. My life will look fundamentally different if my
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: name is Michael, if we're Michael Conyers, but as John Conyers,
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 3: that they'd when people automatically say, wait, with John Conyers,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: your father or your grandfather, the ability to make connections,
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 3: the ability to introduce folks and help people.
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 1: So you see it all as asset.
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: It's an asset, whatever the downside is. I'm okay with
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 3: it because the upside I can't, I literally.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 2: Cannot quantify it. So I'm gonna do with it and
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: God will fourth.
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah. No, That's what I just have always, and I've
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: always wondered, is there a like, you know, had this
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 1: convert like I said, al Gore sharing his name with
• 1:07:01
  Speaker 1: his right he was al Gorth junior, right, and there
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 1: was an expectation Mlka the third right. And I've always
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: you know, is is it a It's both a privilege
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 1: and a burden role wrapped up in won perhaps right,
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 1: depending on who you're dealing with. And that's what I've Yeah, well,
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 1: there's no reason you ever had a conversation with any
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 1: of the other namesakes.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: Uh No, I'm not one that was substantive or substantial
• 1:07:33
  Speaker 3: about like that issue.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, not about that issue. No, I don't. I don't
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: know that. I also, oh, you know what.
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: I talked to harro Ford Junior about it, and I've
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 3: talked to Dennis Archer Jr. Dennis Archer Jr. Speaking of
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: local politics, right, the former mayor. I've talked to him
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: about it, and we both see it as a positive.
• 1:07:51
  Speaker 3: I think that he's I mean not. I think he
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 3: has focused strictly on solely on business right, and he's
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 3: you know, he's commended me on me on stepping into
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 3: the political scene as a political operative with my name
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: being what it is.
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about Detroit. You called Detroit, you position
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: an unfinished business.
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: Tell me, you know, I've lived a bunch of I've
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: lived in five different places. I've lived in DC, I've
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 3: lived in Atlanta, I've lived in obviously Michigan, in New
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 3: York as well as Los Angeles, California. But Michigan, I
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: think is at an inflection point. Detroit specifically, we have
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: new leadership in our city. We are going to have
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 3: new leadership in the governor's mansion, and right now it
• 1:08:47
  Speaker 3: is critical for folks that have stayed in Michigan and Detroit,
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 3: Southeastern Michigan specifically, who have a wealth of resources, some
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 3: of which have already kind of beenake.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 2: It over to some extent.
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 3: It is important that we have people that are going
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: to fight on behalf of those folks and make sure
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 3: they have a place in a city that they helped
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: propped up when folks did not want to be here
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 3: or didn't see it as a wise investment.
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 2: And I think that's the unfinished business.
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting. I saw it comparative of Detroit
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: and Saint Louis and how Detroit's turning a corner and
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 1: Saint Louis is stuck, and it's it's that's good news, right.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, you know, fifteen years ago, it was we
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 1: were still in the what's it going to take to
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: turn Detroit around? What's it going to take to turn
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: de Traite around? Do you credit dug In with this?
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 2: I can't. You can't discredit dug In at all. Now.
• 1:09:44
  Speaker 3: The fact of the matter, some of the framework, and
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 3: no one likes to talk about this, and I don't
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 3: mean to put him in this conversation, but some of
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 3: the framework that Dugan was able to work off of
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: was laid by Kwame Kkatrick. Some of the money, some
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 3: of the money that was used a federal funding that
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 3: was used was from, you know, stuff that his mother
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 3: was able to bring back. But overall, I mean the
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: jumping off point and the right it's one thing to
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 3: get in the door, it's another thing to stay there. Right,
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: So you cannot you cannot discredit dug In for the
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 3: longevity and the long term success that he's had and
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 3: steering the direction of the city of Detroit, which has
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 3: it's the growth has been tremendous.
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: What's been you know, watching it sort of Detroit sort
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 1: of turn around? Is it one thing or is it
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 1: just a reminder It sometimes just takes a series of
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: little things in time. Well, what would you say the
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 1: recipe turned out to be?
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 3: So my father has a saying again address it in
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: the book, Little by little, day by day, Right, it's
• 1:10:54
  Speaker 3: how you achieved success, and everything's connected. I would say
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 3: that in the case of Detroit, we didn't have any
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 3: other option accept patients.
• 1:11:02
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 3: It wasn't going to happen over now, primarily because folks
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: weren't interested in investing here. So it took someone like
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 3: a Dan Gilbert, someone you know, a family like the
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 3: Illages making consider considerable investment, a strategic investment, and you know,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 3: folks being patient with the mayor. The mayor again, Mike
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: Duggan is a junior, So Mike Duggan leveraging his name
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 3: and his relationships of his father to be able to
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 3: attract people and businesses to come do business here.
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: So we didn't have a choice.
• 1:11:36
  Speaker 3: And I think we're still as someone who's lived in
• 1:11:39
  Speaker 3: a number of major cities, we still have a ways
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: to go, and I think we can get to the
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: place to get back to the top of you know,
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: American cities, but we have a long way to go,
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 3: and the work, the foundation has been laid and the
• 1:11:54
  Speaker 3: work continues.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 1: You know, you brought up a couple of them. You
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 1: noted Dan Gilbert in the Illages, and it is every
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 1: community turnaround story is usually you know, a piece of
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 1: it is basically the local rich people finally decided to invest.
• 1:12:11
  Speaker 1: And I say this no disrespect, you know whatever. The
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 1: people that had, you know, made their money in that
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: city or made their money in businesses in that city,
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 1: and the cities that are struggling usually don't have people
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: willing to invest. You know, what does it take to
• 1:12:27
  Speaker 1: get to get folks like the Dan Gilberts and the
• 1:12:31
  Speaker 1: villages to invest?
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: What?
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 1: Why did they do it? And what is it scalable?
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: Is there lessons here for those in Saint Louis that
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 1: want to see want to try to create a Detroit
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 1: like story.
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: Well, I think with Dan and in the Illage family,
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 3: they're they're from here, right, Dan's Damn, Dan's from here.
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 2: He's so that matters. Yeah, I think I think that matters.
• 1:12:58
  Speaker 2: I think it also takes vision.
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: Coming to the earlier conversation, I think some folks don't
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: have a vision beyond the money they make. They have
• 1:13:09
  Speaker 3: a vision to be wealthy and outside of that, like,
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: that's not their problem.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 2: Everything else is not their problem. And I think I don't.
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: Think I can speak to Dan specifically and his vision
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: for Bedrock and his vision for the city of Detroit.
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: He believes in it.
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 3: He believes in what it can be in the same
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 3: way that I've always believed in what it can be.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: When when I went to school at Morehouse, I was
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: always perplexed, not by its success, but more so why
• 1:13:38
  Speaker 3: this little city or this big city and this landlocked
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: city on top of that, right has all of these resources,
• 1:13:45
  Speaker 3: but Detroit is an international city and we don't.
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 2: We're not able to maximize and leverage it. Now.
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: Of course, as I've grown and I'm matured, I understand
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: the machinations of why it is and and the forces,
• 1:13:56
  Speaker 3: the outward forces, external forces working against its success. But
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 3: I do I think you have to have a vision
• 1:14:03
  Speaker 3: for what a thing can be, what a place can be,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: before you make that investment. And there are a lot
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: of places I think that don't have wealthy people that
• 1:14:13
  Speaker 3: have a vision for what a place can be and
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: or even want to be a part of that.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's interesting. I Detroit was Silicon Valley
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: before Silicon Valley. I always like to tell people that
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: Detroit in the forties and fifties and sixties was a
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 1: magnet for young people who wanted to be in the
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 1: auto industry or wanted to be in the cutting edge
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 1: of technology. All the cool stuff was happening in Detroit.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 1: And then for a variety of reasons, everything atrophied, and
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 1: that in the auto business and you know, we all
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: know the story. Suddenly the American carmakers were no longer king,
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: and you know there's a there's a lot of ways
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 1: that this went down. But I look at it and
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: I think, boy, is there a what are the red
• 1:14:57
  Speaker 1: flags that happened with the auto industry in Detroit that
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 1: could happen to San Francisco and Silicon Valley in California
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 1: if they're not careful?
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 3: I can I mean, I think it's the American story
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 3: which we're seeing with the current administration.
• 1:15:11
  Speaker 2: And that is and it's I wouldn't say it's human story.
• 1:15:15
  Speaker 3: I think it is uniquely American and that we we
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 3: don't have to be proactive because of our because of
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 3: our power and our enormous wealth, we don't have to
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: be proactive.
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: We can be we have we can afford to be reactive.
• 1:15:29
  Speaker 1: We can buy our way in if we miss out
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 1: on a technology.
• 1:15:32
  Speaker 3: And that's not and that is not the you're seeing
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 3: it with the big three automakers.
• 1:15:37
  Speaker 2: That's not the case, right.
• 1:15:39
  Speaker 3: You're seeing that like China is eating our lunch with
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: not only the AI race.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 1: The I just saw Ford may do a deal with
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 1: China's largest EV maker. You're like, okay, and so that
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 1: coming and I.
• 1:15:54
  Speaker 3: Talk about and I talk about this part of what
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 3: part of what I discussed politically, is.
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: I think climate j I don't know what any one
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: of those things.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: I believe the climate change is real because I've never
• 1:16:05
  Speaker 3: This is the first real winter we're having a Michigan,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: and god knows how long I say that. I say
• 1:16:10
  Speaker 3: that to say that when the car became, when it became,
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 3: and the infrastructure was built. The infrastructure was built because
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 3: the United States government subsidized largely the building of roads.
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 3: If the infrastructure to make roads, I mean to make
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 3: all the automobile.
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 1: We don't sell as many cars if the country doesn't
• 1:16:31
  Speaker 1: build highways.
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 3: Right subsequently, if we were, If we're going to create
• 1:16:37
  Speaker 3: tax incentives, what good is the tax incentive if we're
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 3: not subsidizing people to be able to the infrastructure to
• 1:16:45
  Speaker 3: or you should get a tax credit on putting an
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 3: EV charger in your home, should get a subsidizing for
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 3: converting your your gas station to an EV gas station,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 3: all those things. What good is that tax credit to
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 3: buy the car if there's no incentive.
• 1:16:56
  Speaker 2: For any industry to convert to that.
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: What today's capitalists don't realize is that this is the
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 1: federal government work hand in hand with industry, whether it
• 1:17:15
  Speaker 1: was to build railroad tracks in the late nineteenth century,
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: or the freeway or the interstate highway system. I know
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: what I thought. This was the great failure of the
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 1: Biden Infrastructure Bill. All it did was shovel cash out
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 1: the door. It didn't take the EV stations. It appropriated
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 1: all this money to build EV essentially powering stations, but
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 1: it was waiting for some private entity to take the
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: tax credit and do it rather than just going and
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 1: doing it and building the infrastructure it is. You know,
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: this is like think explains why there's this whole movement
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: in the Democratic Party of Hey, maybe the Democrats that
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 1: learn how to build stuff again.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: I mean, we have banned West Virginia, but that's a
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 3: whole other conversation for another time. But I mean I
• 1:18:13
  Speaker 3: agree with you, and I just think that now I
• 1:18:18
  Speaker 3: don't agree with the government subsidizing corporations are propping them up, right,
• 1:18:23
  Speaker 3: no one should be too big to fail. But when
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 3: you talk about national security, the interest of America still
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: being a world leader in all things, then I listen.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: Do I do I want.
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: Bp to or or Exonic Petroleum to have a competitive advantage,
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 3: not particularly, but if it means that they're going to
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 3: drill less oil and prioritize investing in evy, in solar
• 1:18:49
  Speaker 3: technology and energy efficient technology. Then we got to subsidize them, guys,
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 3: we can, we can, we can. We can subsidize them
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: and then bring them in front of the Senate and
• 1:18:59
  Speaker 3: regulation can bedies and banking committees to break up the
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 3: anti trust piece later, but first, let's just get let's
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 3: get the thing done right and so looking like a pragmatist.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 1: There's not enough of pragmatism in American politics today.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 3: I listen I as a guy who used to work
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 3: in finance, and you gotta hit singles and doubles. Everything
• 1:19:18
  Speaker 3: can't be a home run incremental intal steps.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 1: Let me wrap up the political side a minute. So
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 1: are you running for something this year or not?
• 1:19:36
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: I'm running for a state Senate in Michigan's third district.
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 3: It's an open seat, got it? State Legislator Stephanie Chang,
• 1:19:43
  Speaker 3: State Center Stephanie Chang is formerly there. Part of why
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 3: I'm running, I think, well, I shouldn't say.
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 2: Part of why this is? This is? This is added
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 2: to why.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: I'm running is I was at a I was at
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: one of her community meetings and there was an issue
• 1:19:56
  Speaker 3: of corruption in a particular.
• 1:19:59
  Speaker 2: City that's within her district, and.
• 1:20:04
  Speaker 3: She said that she doesn't have the power to do
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: anything about her what was happening.
• 1:20:10
  Speaker 2: And to me, this is my issue with.
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 3: Politics in general currently, is that not enough people understand
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: the totality and full weight of the role in what
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 3: they can or cannot do. Like the federal government, someone
• 1:20:25
  Speaker 3: that's on the judiciary committee in the state legislature has
• 1:20:27
  Speaker 3: has a subpoena power to investigate.
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 2: And it's not just about the bully poolpit.
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 3: My challenge in my issue with politics today is that
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: everyone everyone wants to be an activist as a politician.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: Politicians politics and legislating, passing laws is not about activism.
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 2: It's not about it.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: You can be it, you can have you may have
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: been an activist. But this is this is why diplomacy matters.
• 1:20:50
  Speaker 1: This is why this sounds like wisdom from your father.
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 3: Well, yes, yes, right, coming to DC and hearing you know,
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 3: Bob Goodlot, or even someone like a Jim Jordan stop
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 3: me and the elevator with my father's there and say hey,
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know, or Jim Sinson Brenner.
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 2: Name a name that people haven't heard in a while.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 3: Having them stop me and my father and say, hey,
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 3: I don't always agree with your dad, but I need
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 3: you to know.
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: I want to let you know your dad's a great man.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 3: Whenever the Democrats are in the majority, we don't agree,
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 3: but he lets me say my piece and we're respectful
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 3: to one another and vice versa. So I make sure
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 3: that when we were in the majority. I may not
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 3: do it for everyone, but your father, for sure, he's
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 3: someone that I want to hear out because I know
• 1:21:32
  Speaker 3: is coming from an earnest place.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 2: That's what we need back in politics. But every every
• 1:21:36
  Speaker 2: every and everyone.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 3: Says that, but their behavior is not indicative of that
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 3: wanting them, you.
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 1: Know, I mean the rewards. You know, this goes to
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 1: the whole political theatrics. And you know, my biggest concern
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 1: with Congress. And I'm curious. You could have jumped into
• 1:21:52
  Speaker 1: a Congressional seat and you chose not to. You chose
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 1: the state House. Why?
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 3: Oh, because there's Congress is in the place to make
• 1:21:59
  Speaker 3: the fix right now. I would have run if I
• 1:22:01
  Speaker 3: thought it was a place to make the fix. But so,
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 3: for example, one of the things that I am keenly
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 3: focused on is that Michigan, the university, and I'm a
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 3: policy walk. I get it honest from my dad reading
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: and reading about what's going on, and I'll be brief.
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 3: The University of Michigan put out a white paper on
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 3: the economic growth Outlook for twenty twenty seven for the
• 1:22:23
  Speaker 3: State of Michigan, and they also put out one for
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 3: the City of Detroit. Because of the retirement of boomers,
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: we're going to loud the last few years of boomers,
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: We're going to lose folks in the workforce, so we're
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 3: going to have the tax revenue is going to decline
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 3: on down the line from a state stamp.
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: From a state, from.
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 3: The state's ability or a standpoint of what our state
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 3: can do with the Department of Education, declassifying because we
• 1:22:48
  Speaker 3: need to attract talent. Declassifying architecture, occupation of therapy, nursing
• 1:22:54
  Speaker 3: as professional degrees. One thing that we can do to
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 3: attract and retain talent, because that's the one of the
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: challenge is that our current governor was able never able
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 3: to overcome. Instead of issuing bonds that fixed roads and
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 3: build bridges and fixed infrastructure, let's issue bonds to offset
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 3: that twenty nine, five hundred dollars at all. We know
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 3: students are going to lose and attract talent. Right, you
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 3: can't do that on the federal level. I can do
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 3: that on the state level. I can work with because
• 1:23:18
  Speaker 3: that's an issue that is an issue that both Republicans
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: and Democrats on the state level can get on board
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 3: with to attract and retain talent.
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: And it's not an expenditure.
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 3: We're not spending, We're not we're gonna gain tax revenue.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: I remember an early interview I did with Dugan back
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 1: when he was mayor and him going, I need people
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 1: to move to Detroit, and it sounds like what you're saying,
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: with the support, you're gonna have boomers retiring. And there's
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 1: basically there is not a population gain. And I know that.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: You know Detroit raised detaid first for refugees, right, raise
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 1: detail first, because these northern cities are just losing a
• 1:23:54
  Speaker 1: lot of a lot of people to the south. Right,
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 1: we know this.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So I mean and and so to what I
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: just said.
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 3: That is why I look at the state level as
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: the best place to make an impact. I think that again,
• 1:24:08
  Speaker 3: legacy isn't footwear is direction. My father worked on the
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 3: federal level. Great as he may be, he never did
• 1:24:15
  Speaker 3: anything on the state level, and so I can make
• 1:24:17
  Speaker 3: an impact and chart a unique course on the state level.
• 1:24:21
  Speaker 3: That's not to say I'll never make it to the
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 3: federal level or never look that way, but I think
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: right now to make an outsize impact and to really
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 3: leave an imprint on how this state grows, I think
• 1:24:31
  Speaker 3: the best place to do it is, you know, in Lansing.
• 1:24:35
  Speaker 1: This is about us. I tell anybody, I said, if
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: you're running a political you're putting a national news organization,
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 1: and you want to cover campaign twenty twenty six, I'd
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: send a full time person to the state of Michigan.
• 1:24:45
  Speaker 1: Between that Democratic Senate primary, the three way governor's race,
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 1: that sort of all the national issues are right there
• 1:24:54
  Speaker 1: in the state of Michigan. You can cover every issue
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 1: under the sun. Democratic can fight it, Republican in fighting, swing,
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 1: voter polarization, it's all here.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 3: I thought it was bad on our side of the aisle,
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 3: but listen, I've been hearing from folks the Republicans in
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 3: the state of Michigan are a disarray.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and completely other disarray.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 1: So look, obviously you're running as a Democrat, right, so
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 1: the governor's race. I mean, is Doug and a spoiler.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: For the Democrats?
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 3: Listen, folks don't I don't know. You may know, but
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 3: most people don't know. Like it's alluring and he can
• 1:25:31
  Speaker 3: raise the money, I'm sure, but we have straight ticket voting.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 2: There's the reason why he's able to go.
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: I had this conversation with him. This is a huge issue.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: I think I don't.
• 1:25:41
  Speaker 3: I will say, I will say the one if there's
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 3: one person that can do it, based on what he
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: did in twenty what twenty eleven or is it twenty thirteen?
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: Right, the one person that.
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 1: Can do Yeah, you want to write it, yeah, no
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 1: much respect.
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but if there's one person that can get folks
• 1:25:58
  Speaker 3: to change their voting habits, the last person I'm going
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 3: to doubt is Michael Duggant Junior is the last person
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 3: I'm going to die. But I think that I know
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 3: that my mom votes straight ticket. I don't vote straight
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 3: ticket in the general never, I never have, but in
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 3: the primary, because that is what the habit is. I
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: am curious to see what happens in this primary and
• 1:26:22
  Speaker 3: whether you can get people to change their voting habits.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 1: I look at this race and look you know, without
• 1:26:28
  Speaker 1: getting into positions, these are three very qualified people on paper.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 1: Whatever you think of them, do you agree with.
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: That, who's the who's the republic who's the Republican?
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 1: Your Well, I mean I say that. Look what I
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 1: say is he's got the resume that fits John James.
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 1: Meaning like like the average voter would say, oh, okay,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 1: he served in Congress, she served as secretary of State,
• 1:26:50
  Speaker 1: he served as mayor. You would say, sure, that's what
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 1: I mean. So let me then let me get specific.
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: Do you think you could work with James's governor?
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 3: I mean our families go our families go way back,
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 3: and so John and I have a relationship. Yeah, I
• 1:27:11
  Speaker 3: have no I have no doubt that I could work
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: with John or anyone else, you know, as as a
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 3: state legislator.
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: But I assume I assume you support Benson as as
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 1: a Democrat or should I not make an assumption?
• 1:27:24
  Speaker 3: You know, I support I support Jocelyn Johnson. Jocelyn and
• 1:27:26
  Speaker 3: I have had conversations. I support her. I think I
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 3: think she could do a great job.
• 1:27:34
  Speaker 1: But it sounds like you you know all three of
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: these candidates pretty well.
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 3: I have thought I have thoughts about Mike choosing to
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 3: run independent. Although I understand it, I.
• 1:27:48
  Speaker 1: Also you wish he were running as a Democrat.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: Okay, primarily because like historically independent spoiler for Democrats, not
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 3: the other way around, right right, And so I just.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 1: Think especially his base is I mean, you see the numbers.
• 1:28:01
  Speaker 1: It's just you know, I know what he says of
• 1:28:04
  Speaker 1: the trail. Oh, I'm getting, you know, equal from both sides.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: You're like, every vote you get out of Detroit is
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: a to vote gain for the Republicans.
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it's it's concerning, but we'll see what happens.
• 1:28:20
  Speaker 3: I think again, this is why my policies. You know,
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: my father's legacy as a politician, one of the things
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 3: that he never got to cover, and he's not thought
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 3: of for this, although it was very much a part
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 3: of his mission was economic justice.
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 2: My issues and my concerns are related to economic justice.
• 1:28:41
  Speaker 3: And so if I as a Democrat who has a
• 1:28:45
  Speaker 3: primary focus on the ability of economic freedom and mobility
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 3: to create opportunities for black folks, other peoples of color,
• 1:28:57
  Speaker 3: and poor disenfranchised folks, if I can work, I know
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 3: that those things are things that Republicans care about, and
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 3: so that I know that I'll be able to talk
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 3: to them and communicate to them about things of that nature.
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 3: So I'm not I'm not worried about a Republican being
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 3: in the governor's mansion. I'm more concerned about Republicans taking
• 1:29:20
  Speaker 3: over the state House or maintaining their lead in the
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: State House, and they're maintaining their lead in the in
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 3: the state Senate.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 1: You have a strong opinion about the Democratic Center primary,
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 1: the US Center primary, or is this since you're running
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: your own primary, you're staying out of it.
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I don't have a strong opinion about it. I think, yeah,
• 1:29:40
  Speaker 3: I don't. I don't have a strong opinion about it.
• 1:29:43
  Speaker 3: May the best person win, I think that. I will
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 3: tell you this.
• 1:29:46
  Speaker 2: Mallary mc morrow is someone I consider a friend.
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 3: Although I've talked to her about this since it came out.
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 3: She gets the Medicare for All issue wrong. But other
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 3: than that, I think, you know, she get wrong about it.
• 1:30:02
  Speaker 3: So she she says that Medicare for All isn't a
• 1:30:05
  Speaker 3: single payer insurance thing, and it absolutely is, and she
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 3: and so that that's it. I just want to clarify
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 3: that with her because obviously, you know, having a front
• 1:30:16
  Speaker 3: row seat to the Medicare for all and being introduced.
• 1:30:19
  Speaker 3: I understand understand what it's about, and I just you know,
• 1:30:22
  Speaker 3: she and I had a conversation and I talk with
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 3: the chief of staff or a campaign manager about what
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 3: it is, and so yeah, that's that's really it. But
• 1:30:29
  Speaker 3: I mean, Mallory, Mallory has been a champion for the
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 3: issues for a very long time.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 1: She she strikes me as literally goldilocks here. Right. It's
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 1: like some people are going to think once to establishment.
• 1:30:45
  Speaker 1: Somebody's gonna think once too progressive. Here she is sitting
• 1:30:48
  Speaker 1: somewhere in between those two. So I don't know whether
• 1:30:50
  Speaker 1: that's good or bad in this case. This is what
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 1: where the electorate is gonna tell us.
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: I think I think the correct the elector is going
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 3: to and I think it's going to it's going to
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: come down to people make a decisions based on that
• 1:31:08
  Speaker 3: is one two establishment is one two progressive.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so we'll see. I mean, Mallord is a great person.
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: Let me get you out of here. On your previous
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 1: life the music business. How much is AI going to
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 1: change the music business and is it going to be
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: even recognizable when it's all done.
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: I don't know that. I don't know that.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: AI can capture the human condition or the human experience.
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 1: I would expecy to hear you say that. I always
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 1: say I have faith in our species, that we're not
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 1: going to allow ourselves to be replaced. Whatever that means, you.
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 3: Know, but I think it takes Here's the thing you
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 3: asked me a question, or you made a statement earlier
• 1:31:58
  Speaker 3: about incrementalism. Part of incrementalism, and part of it of
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 3: folks engaging with that is understanding that part of life
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 3: is doing I realized to curse on here.
• 1:32:10
  Speaker 1: No, you don't curse, go for it.
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 2: It's work.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 3: It's doing the fucking work right, being actually invested in
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 3: the processes. There are processes that are in place within
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 3: this country that like you can't get around. I understand
• 1:32:28
  Speaker 3: that they're frustrating, and I'm not saying that they shouldn't
• 1:32:31
  Speaker 3: be different, but if you want them to be different,
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 3: you have to participate. And so what I would say
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 3: is to answer your question more fully, more holistically, is that,
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 3: whether it's AI or whether it's politics, if you don't
• 1:32:43
  Speaker 3: want things to be the way they are, then you
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 3: have to participate and fight for the thing until it
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 3: is the way you would like it to be.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: I don't think that AI.
• 1:32:53
  Speaker 3: Can capture the anguish of what it's like to answer
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 3: the phone and find out one of your best friends
• 1:33:00
  Speaker 3: is died by suicide. I don't think AI can capture
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 3: the anguish of being the eldest son of John Conyers
• 1:33:09
  Speaker 3: and going to discover his body and having to call
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: his wife and his brother and his son.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: Right, I don't think AI can capture that.
• 1:33:16
  Speaker 3: I may may, AI may be able to, may be
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 3: able to write a love song that is nice and catchy,
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 3: But I don't think it can capture the inner workings
• 1:33:31
  Speaker 3: of what you feel, the complexity of what you feel,
• 1:33:34
  Speaker 3: the anguish of loving someone and wanting to be with
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 3: someone but knowing that this is not the right person
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: for you.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 2: I don't think it can.
• 1:33:39
  Speaker 1: The metaphor you're making me think of it sort of
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 1: like you can buy a frozen dinner and you'll leave. Yeah,
• 1:33:45
  Speaker 1: But boy, when mom or dad makes a home cooked meal,
• 1:33:48
  Speaker 1: there's something about it that's a hell of a lot better,
• 1:33:54
  Speaker 1: you know whatever. That The extra ingredient is humanity, right,
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: the species can How hard is it to make a
• 1:34:03
  Speaker 1: living as a middle class musician these days? Harder than ever?
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 3: Well, I'm not in it anymore, but I can tell
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 3: you when I wasn't, it was very difficult.
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 2: It's difficult to get into sessions.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: Because all people see are the stars, right, and you know,
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: there's I just saw this movie about Sung Sung Blue.
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: It's about Neil Diamond. But it's not about Neil Diamond, right,
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: It's about people that populate every city in America, which
• 1:34:27
  Speaker 1: is these people that will sing at bars, that do
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 1: live music that you know, it's a full time job
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 1: for them, but they're not making millions. But that's why
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: I land the bills, you know.
• 1:34:37
  Speaker 2: That's why that's why I left.
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 3: That's actually why my dad left the music business is because,
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 3: like he quickly realized, I did not. I wish I
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 3: realized it as quickly as him, but he quickly realized
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 3: what it would take to just get by. And I
• 1:34:50
  Speaker 3: not thrive, but just to get by. And I think
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 3: not enough people tough life. It's a very tough life,
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 3: and it's and it's one of those things where people
• 1:34:57
  Speaker 3: try to take advantage of you for what you don't know,
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 3: even though you're contributing and making them millions.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: It's a tough life. I wish more people respected it.
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 3: The again the emotions and the pain that come with
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 3: being a songwriter to be able to give you a hit.
• 1:35:14
  Speaker 1: Do you feel like Detroit can be this hub of
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 1: the music industry again.
• 1:35:19
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't.
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 3: I don't know that it can be that because the
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 3: infrastructure is not here. I think what Detroit can be
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 3: is is the hub of something new Detroit.
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 2: And I tell people this, Detroit is not an importer
• 1:35:32
  Speaker 2: of culture. We have never imported culture. We export. Oh,
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: you've created culture. Detroit creates culture.
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 3: And so I think whatever, whatever the next thing is
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 3: going to be, it'll it'll come from Detroit.
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 2: And you know, we shall see with that, with that ultimately.
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: Become Well, when the Pistons are in the NBA Finals,
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 1: maybe we'll get some new bad boys.
• 1:35:52
  Speaker 2: Closed and we're first in the East.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: I have to say, I think it's a year too soon.
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 4: But hey, you know, no joannest no Ynes and I
• 1:36:04
  Speaker 4: love Giannis, I think, but too distracting, Huh. I think
• 1:36:08
  Speaker 4: you're building something.
• 1:36:09
  Speaker 3: He fundamentally changes the way the what we do. Yeah,
• 1:36:13
  Speaker 3: I don't know that, Jannis does. I come from the
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 3: era of the bull I watched the Bulls, I watched
• 1:36:18
  Speaker 3: the Lakers, both both Kobe iterations.
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: I don't like personally.
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 3: I can appreciate greatness, but I don't like players that
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 3: don't do one thing well.
• 1:36:29
  Speaker 2: Giannis doesn't do one thing well.
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 3: Joannis requires you play a certain type of play, a
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 3: certain type of game.
• 1:36:36
  Speaker 2: Right, if the game slows down, if the game slows down,
• 1:36:38
  Speaker 2: what can I rely on Yiannis to do? I don't,
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: I don't. I don't like that.
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't want to shooting free throws, and you
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: probably don't want him shooting threes. He can, he can.
• 1:36:48
  Speaker 3: He doesn't have a back to the basket game though,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 3: really right, so like what is he going to do?
• 1:36:53
  Speaker 2: So I personally don't want him on my team, although
• 1:36:56
  Speaker 2: I hope that he lands where he would like to land.
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 1: All I say is I got you know, I get
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 1: a cousin grip in Monroe. So I've always had to
• 1:37:02
  Speaker 1: follow Detroit sports a little bit. This is about the
• 1:37:06
  Speaker 1: best run that you guys have had in a while, Like,
• 1:37:09
  Speaker 1: so everybody's competitive.
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: Maybe you know, I'm surprised, listen, I was. I was with.
• 1:37:15
  Speaker 3: I was with the vice chairman of the business not
• 1:37:17
  Speaker 3: too long ago, and that we were talking about that
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 3: and he.
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 1: Was him at mcna Island. He's that ownership group of
• 1:37:22
  Speaker 1: the Pistons. Yeah that's amazing. Yeah he's amazing.
• 1:37:26
  Speaker 2: But ye, he was even he's surprised. He didn't think
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: it would be this year.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 1: So right, it's quick, but you know, hey, the East
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 1: is open. It is wide open.
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 3: How about the Celtics, By the way, I didn't think.
• 1:37:39
  Speaker 3: I mean, listen, I'm a JB. I should people watch
• 1:37:42
  Speaker 3: your podcast. I listen to your podcast. I shouldn't say this, but.
• 1:37:44
  Speaker 2: I personally preferred JB's style of play over Tatum.
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 1: Yes, I like, I know, I I know what you
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 1: mean by Tatum, but yeah, I mean poor Jason Tatum.
• 1:37:54
  Speaker 1: There's a part of it feel sorry like he's I
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 1: don't think he gets the do he does hers?
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: Why is that? Why do you think that? Why do
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 2: you feel that way?
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: Because look, I think he's because in a weird way,
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 1: it's like when he's great, it's like, well, yeah he
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 1: was supposed to be great. That's all I mean. It's
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 1: there's something. Look, I think Lebron deals with this a
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: little bit. I think we all hold Lebron as this
• 1:38:18
  Speaker 1: absurd standard. I look back and I think it's amazing
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 1: how well Lebron has handled all of it. I mean,
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 1: you're told at fifteen you're the king, and you kind
• 1:38:27
  Speaker 1: of live up to expectations that were put on you
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 1: as a fifteen year old. Okay, we can debate, well,
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 1: he's got four titles. Come on, like the guy was
• 1:38:37
  Speaker 1: you know, I remember a guy named Todd Marinovitch given
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 1: the same treatment on Sports Illustrated Football player. That's great.
• 1:38:45
  Speaker 1: You know, his father raised him to be this perfect
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 1: quarterback and he completely imploded. You know, so you know
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 1: because the expect arguably because he couldn't handle the pressure, right,
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 1: And here's a fifteen year old kid who got the
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 1: same any and he handled it. And I'm sorry whatever.
• 1:39:02
  Speaker 1: You know what Lebron scandal is there? Right? The Lebron
• 1:39:07
  Speaker 1: scandals are, Oh nobody likes his take on this political
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: thing or that political thing. You know, there's no scandal
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 1: scandal with him.
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 2: Absolutely not. Absolutely.
• 1:39:18
  Speaker 3: We could argue that Michael Jordan has more scandal than
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 3: Lebron James.
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: So I know I'm with you there.
• 1:39:24
  Speaker 3: My my critiques of Lebron James are only related to basketball.
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 3: They are not related to him as a person. I
• 1:39:30
  Speaker 3: just don't I don't think he's the greatest. I would
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 3: put him at number two, number three.
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: But I just think, you.
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 1: Know, I'm not planning to run for the mayor to
• 1:39:42
  Speaker 1: become mayor v Slansing. But I think after I said
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 1: my statement, I'd at least get at least a few votes.
• 1:39:49
  Speaker 1: I think Magic gets underrated in this conversation. I mean
• 1:39:56
  Speaker 1: his career gets cut short, and Jordan and Magic only
• 1:39:59
  Speaker 1: f off once if he doesn't get HIV. I promise
• 1:40:03
  Speaker 1: you they face off a couple more times. Would golds
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: Lakers becomes a thing in the early nineties and he
• 1:40:10
  Speaker 1: gets all he has to do is get one? And
• 1:40:13
  Speaker 1: who's got six? Magic won his first year. You know what,
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 1: Michael Jordan didn't do that. You know what Lebron didn't
• 1:40:21
  Speaker 1: do that. You know what Kareem didn't do that. Yeah,
• 1:40:24
  Speaker 1: I can go all day on my Magic.
• 1:40:26
  Speaker 2: Listen, we got it one day. You're in DC, right,
• 1:40:29
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 1:40:30
  Speaker 3: I When I when I come to town next, which will
• 1:40:32
  Speaker 3: be very soon because I'm fundraising, I will definitely, you know, I'll.
• 1:40:35
  Speaker 2: Look you up. I would love to talk sports with you.
• 1:40:37
  Speaker 3: I had the privilege of me. I had the privilege
• 1:40:39
  Speaker 3: of me. Willbon I've never met Corneiser.
• 1:40:41
  Speaker 2: I would love to. I would love to pick a
• 1:40:42
  Speaker 2: grant on sports as well, but yeah.
• 1:40:44
  Speaker 1: You would. He would have a blast for that. Hey, John,
• 1:40:47
  Speaker 1: this has been great. Appreciate the time. Congrats on the book.
• 1:40:50
  Speaker 1: Like I said, I it is not your It is
• 1:40:54
  Speaker 1: not what people expect, but it's I learned a lot,
• 1:40:57
  Speaker 1: both about your father but about you know. It's it's
• 1:41:02
  Speaker 1: just it's tough to live in some you know, it's
• 1:41:07
  Speaker 1: both a privilege but it's also taugh and I think
• 1:41:10
  Speaker 1: you captured it pretty well the without without coming across
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 1: like some elitis complaining about their lifestyle.
• 1:41:18
  Speaker 3: It was definitely a difficult needle to thread, but I
• 1:41:20
  Speaker 3: feel like I think I knew I did the best
• 1:41:23
  Speaker 3: I could.
• 1:41:24
  Speaker 1: Well be safe on the trail and definitely look me up.
• 1:41:27
  Speaker 2: Thank you for having me.
• 1:41:38
  Speaker 1: All right. I hope you enjoyed my conversation with John Conyers.
• 1:41:43
  Speaker 1: The third I know I'll be watching his state Senate race.
• 1:41:45
  Speaker 1: I like the fact that he says, yes, he's going
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: into the family business, but he wants to chart his
• 1:41:50
  Speaker 1: own course. His dad never worked in the legislature, and
• 1:41:54
  Speaker 1: he actually see the issues that he cares about. And
• 1:41:56
  Speaker 1: by the way, it's A. It's good advice for anybody
• 1:41:58
  Speaker 1: wanting to run for office. Don't just say to yourself, man,
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 1: I'm really upset about what's going on. I'm just going
• 1:42:04
  Speaker 1: to run for any I'm going to run for Congress
• 1:42:05
  Speaker 1: and see if I can do something well. Not every
• 1:42:08
  Speaker 1: reform that you're fighting for is best implemented on the
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 1: congressional level. Sometimes you can have more impact running city council,
• 1:42:18
  Speaker 1: state legislature. And I think that that's that's the path
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: that John Conyer's the third seas for himself. So let's
• 1:42:26
  Speaker 1: let me move to my top five list. And it's
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: inspired by you know, when I was going through all
• 1:42:31
  Speaker 1: of my research on how often, you know, the largest
• 1:42:36
  Speaker 1: retirement classes we've had in midterm elections, and I was
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 1: reminded that as large the fact that we'd cross fifty
• 1:42:44
  Speaker 1: retirements and it was only the third time we'd ever
• 1:42:46
  Speaker 1: done it. The two times in midterms right twenty eighteen
• 1:42:50
  Speaker 1: we had fifty five. We're at fifty one encounting now
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 1: for twenty twenty six. But the high water mark was
• 1:42:57
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two, that was a presidential year, and it
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 1: was sixty five. And if you recall, I said, you know,
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 1: There were sort of three things that were driving so
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: many retirements that cycle. One, it was a redistricting year,
• 1:43:13
  Speaker 1: and it was no ordinary redistricting here. It was the
• 1:43:15
  Speaker 1: first cycle where the Justice Department prioritized majority minority reapportionment.
• 1:43:25
  Speaker 1: So in the South they guaranteed a lot more African
• 1:43:29
  Speaker 1: American representation and in the Southwest Latino representation. And the
• 1:43:34
  Speaker 1: Justice Department was approving or disapproving these maps based on that. Well,
• 1:43:38
  Speaker 1: that really shook up. It shook up a lot of
• 1:43:40
  Speaker 1: different maps, drove a lot of retirements. The second thing
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 1: that drove a bunch of incumbents into retirement was scandal,
• 1:43:47
  Speaker 1: and that there was a couple of unique They were
• 1:43:50
  Speaker 1: basically members of Congress were able to write checks without
• 1:43:54
  Speaker 1: having to prove they had the cash to do it,
• 1:43:56
  Speaker 1: like this special House bank, and members were bouncing checks
• 1:43:59
  Speaker 1: or some guys bounced over seven hundred checks, and it
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 1: was just crazy. There was also a House post office
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 1: scandal where people were getting free postage. Members of Congress
• 1:44:08
  Speaker 1: freet postage and then somehow like parlaying it into cash elsewhere.
• 1:44:13
  Speaker 1: It's what was the downfall of one Dan Rostenkowski, the
• 1:44:17
  Speaker 1: one time powerful chairman the Ways and Mes Committee, an
• 1:44:20
  Speaker 1: old Chicago Democrat. But there was a third reason that
• 1:44:27
  Speaker 1: drove a bunch of incumbents into retirement, and that was
• 1:44:31
  Speaker 1: nineteen ninety two was going to be the last year
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 1: a sitting member of Congress, House or Senate could retire
• 1:44:40
  Speaker 1: and take whatever leftover camp campaign money they had and
• 1:44:44
  Speaker 1: convert it to personal finances. They could just take whatever
• 1:44:48
  Speaker 1: campaign money was left and it was theirs. They didn't
• 1:44:51
  Speaker 1: have to give it back to donors. They didn't have
• 1:44:53
  Speaker 1: to give it to the party, give it to a
• 1:44:56
  Speaker 1: pack or open up their own pack and create a
• 1:44:59
  Speaker 1: political commit They could simply just convert it to there
• 1:45:03
  Speaker 1: and so quite a few members had. You know, at
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 1: the time, having a million dollars in your account was
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 1: a huge deal back then, thought hey, I got this
• 1:45:12
  Speaker 1: brand new retirement account, you know, in addition to their
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 1: congressional pension. I remember South Florida lost three I think
• 1:45:21
  Speaker 1: long time or at least two long time members of Congress,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 1: and I can't help but wonder how much that contributed
• 1:45:27
  Speaker 1: to it. Bill Layman and Dante Facel were two of
• 1:45:31
  Speaker 1: the guys that took off in ninety two. Claude Pepper
• 1:45:33
  Speaker 1: kept going. He could have probably walked away with money,
• 1:45:38
  Speaker 1: but he was actually he had already passed away. I
• 1:45:40
  Speaker 1: admit claud Pepper by my bad on that. Claude Pepper
• 1:45:42
  Speaker 1: was eight. He passed away in eighty nine. But you
• 1:45:45
  Speaker 1: had I think two other members who chose not to
• 1:45:48
  Speaker 1: seek reelection in one of the perks of that. So
• 1:45:50
  Speaker 1: it made me think, you know, what would be good
• 1:45:53
  Speaker 1: a top five list of you won't believe this used
• 1:45:56
  Speaker 1: to be legal in American politics, And it's just a
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: good reminder that reform is always reactive in American politics.
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 1: We don't outlaw abuses in advance. We don't think about
• 1:46:11
  Speaker 1: what could be abused. We wait for the abuse to happen.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 1: Then we pass the law regulation to try to prevent
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 1: it in the future. So with that in mind, there's
• 1:46:20
  Speaker 1: my top five list of things that were once completely legal,
• 1:46:24
  Speaker 1: followed by a second list that may someday make future
• 1:46:27
  Speaker 1: Americans say, wait, they allowed that. So top five things
• 1:46:31
  Speaker 1: that used to be legal but no longer are Top.
• 1:46:37
  Speaker 2: Five top.
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 1: It'll shock you that this was so. Number five, corporations
• 1:46:46
  Speaker 1: could give directly to candidates. This was legal until nineteen
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 1: oh seven and the passage of the then the Tilman Act.
• 1:46:54
  Speaker 1: But back then there were no packs. Corporations didn't need
• 1:46:57
  Speaker 1: packs or shell entities to get money to candidates. They
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 1: simply wrote checks directly from corporate treasuries to candidates. In fact,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 1: Mark Hannah, who was sort of the political guru of
• 1:47:09
  Speaker 1: Bill McWilliam McKinley in the turn of the century. In
• 1:47:13
  Speaker 1: the eighteen ninety six and nineteen hundred elections, Mark Hannah
• 1:47:15
  Speaker 1: while running the McKinley campaigns, he didn't ask corporations for donations.
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 1: He assigned them quotas railroads, banks, manufacturers. They were told
• 1:47:26
  Speaker 1: what they owed based on what he's thought was the
• 1:47:30
  Speaker 1: stake in prosperity. Hey, this is you have to give
• 1:47:34
  Speaker 1: this much money to our campaign. And then it sort
• 1:47:38
  Speaker 1: of blew up when Standard Oil it was at the
• 1:47:41
  Speaker 1: time it was exposed that they secretly funded Teddy Roosevelt's
• 1:47:46
  Speaker 1: nineteen oh four campaign. And when that came out, Teddy
• 1:47:50
  Speaker 1: was so embarrassed, not because it was illegal, but because
• 1:47:53
  Speaker 1: it looked bad that he actually got behind the reform
• 1:47:57
  Speaker 1: that became the Tilman Act that did this. Now, of
• 1:48:00
  Speaker 1: course we have dark money. You've got people that can
• 1:48:03
  Speaker 1: make their donations anonymous, and there's certainly plenty of shell
• 1:48:06
  Speaker 1: companies now that can be used in shell five oh one,
• 1:48:10
  Speaker 1: see threes and fours and stuff like that. But believe
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 1: it or not, back in the day, it was not
• 1:48:15
  Speaker 1: just legal. You had campaigns that essentially invoiced. That's what
• 1:48:21
  Speaker 1: Mark Hannah Diddy invoiced railroad companies and oil companies for
• 1:48:26
  Speaker 1: those eighteen ninety six and nineteen hundred campaigns. Number four
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 1: on the list, party machines openly bought votes. This was
• 1:48:37
  Speaker 1: legal for much of the nineteenth century. Vote buying wasn't hidden.
• 1:48:40
  Speaker 1: It was simply transactional, so you'd have tammany hall operatives.
• 1:48:44
  Speaker 1: They would just be handing out cash, coal, turkeys, whiskey
• 1:48:48
  Speaker 1: right outside of polling places. This was in New York City.
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 1: Ballots back then were public, so party bosses could actually
• 1:48:57
  Speaker 1: know how someone voted. If you took the money and
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 1: voted the wrong way, you didn't get paid the laxt time.
• 1:49:04
  Speaker 1: So basically that's how we ended up with a secret ballot.
• 1:49:09
  Speaker 1: And it's a reminder secret ballots they don't make politics moral,
• 1:49:12
  Speaker 1: It just makes it made the corruption unenforceable. On that front.
• 1:49:19
  Speaker 1: The number three, you won't believe this was legal federal
• 1:49:23
  Speaker 1: jobs being used as campaign currency. This was legal until
• 1:49:26
  Speaker 1: eighteen eighty three, so before we had Civil service reform,
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: and frankly, it's something that Donald Trump's trying to undo today.
• 1:49:34
  Speaker 1: But federal employment up until eighteen eighty three was basically
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 1: a spoils system. Presidents would fire entire post office staffs
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 1: after election, and the postal Service back then was seen
• 1:49:46
  Speaker 1: as part of the political arm of presidents and political parties.
• 1:49:50
  Speaker 1: That frankly, that was all the way through until Leftdr FDR's,
• 1:49:55
  Speaker 1: you know, chief political strategist was the Postmaster General. That
• 1:49:58
  Speaker 1: wasn't an accident because post offic offices were all over
• 1:50:00
  Speaker 1: the country. They were essentially little organizing hubs, at least
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 1: that's how they saw them until they finally sort of
• 1:50:06
  Speaker 1: separated out and took the politics out of the postal service.
• 1:50:09
  Speaker 1: But before eighteen eighty three, you'd see just entire post
• 1:50:12
  Speaker 1: offices would just we would turn over if the political
• 1:50:17
  Speaker 1: party of the president changed and they were all replaced
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 1: with loyalist federal employees would actually be subjected to political assessments,
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 1: something Donald Trump's trying to do right now with civil servants,
• 1:50:28
  Speaker 1: right and they would be mandatory kickbacks were expected, and
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 1: if you didn't pay, you lost your job. And it
• 1:50:36
  Speaker 1: took the assassination of James Garfield for a former party
• 1:50:41
  Speaker 1: boss or party operative in Chester Arthur to see the light,
• 1:50:44
  Speaker 1: and he helped, as president, lead to this civil service
• 1:50:48
  Speaker 1: reform that's actually served the country quite well until Doge
• 1:50:52
  Speaker 1: and until what Trump's trying to do now where they're
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 1: trying to repoliticize the federal government. I promise you, you know,
• 1:50:58
  Speaker 1: the corruption of the nineteen century, which was huge in government,
• 1:51:04
  Speaker 1: would come right back if we got rid of these
• 1:51:06
  Speaker 1: civil service reforms. Number two on that list, as candidates
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 1: could accept unlimited, anonymous cash. This was legal until essentially Watergate,
• 1:51:17
  Speaker 1: so before we ever had any modern campaign finance, so
• 1:51:19
  Speaker 1: there was no disclosure requirements and no limits, so wealthy
• 1:51:22
  Speaker 1: donors literally could give bags of cash to presidential campaigns
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 1: with no public reporting. Campaigns literally kept cash safes okay,
• 1:51:35
  Speaker 1: envelopes stuffed with money, moved through hotel rooms, private offices,
• 1:51:39
  Speaker 1: and voters none of us had any right to know
• 1:51:41
  Speaker 1: who was funding the campaigns or asking for their vote. Essentially,
• 1:51:44
  Speaker 1: democracy functioned as a blind trust, and that blind trust
• 1:51:49
  Speaker 1: failed miserably. It took Watergate and Nixon for it to happen.
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 1: But look, it was bags of cash. Nobody knows how
• 1:51:56
  Speaker 1: much money John Kennedy's dad spent. Jill don't know how
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: much he spent. We have no idea how many people,
• 1:52:02
  Speaker 1: how much money was spent on behalf of Eisenhower, how
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 1: much money FDR spent on his own campaigns, all of
• 1:52:07
  Speaker 1: those things. At least now we have the laws to
• 1:52:10
  Speaker 1: do that. And then, of course number one, I can't
• 1:52:12
  Speaker 1: believe it was legal, is what I was telling you
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: about that retiring members of Congress could simply pocket their
• 1:52:17
  Speaker 1: leftover campaign money for decades. When members retired, they just
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 1: all campaign contributions were seen as personal property. Retirement lawmakers
• 1:52:26
  Speaker 1: retirement simply converted the campaign accounts into personal income or
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 1: retirement money. There was no requirement to donate it, refunded,
• 1:52:33
  Speaker 1: or justify it. And there's no doubt in ninety two,
• 1:52:36
  Speaker 1: which is why we had the record breaking amount of
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 1: retirements still the record because that was the last time
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 1: they could take their leftover campaign balances and do that.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 1: So which leads me into essentially a second top five list,
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: and this is my top five list of things that
• 1:52:55
  Speaker 1: are legal today that perhaps a future version of me,
• 1:53:01
  Speaker 1: you know, the AI version of me fifty years and
• 1:53:03
  Speaker 1: from now. We'll do this top five list of believe
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: it or not, this stuff was legal, and frankly, if
• 1:53:09
  Speaker 1: some of this becomes illegal sooner rather than later, we
• 1:53:11
  Speaker 1: may have Donald Trump to think. So top five things
• 1:53:16
  Speaker 1: that are still legal that I think are not going
• 1:53:19
  Speaker 1: to age well. Number five members of Congress trading stocks. Right,
• 1:53:22
  Speaker 1: We've been seeing this back and forth about the stock
• 1:53:24
  Speaker 1: trading ban. The amount of insider info average member of
• 1:53:29
  Speaker 1: Congress can get and can make decisions. We saw this
• 1:53:32
  Speaker 1: during the pandemic. They get some COVID briefings and all
• 1:53:35
  Speaker 1: of a sudden you had members of Congress shorting some places,
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: buying other places. You know, members of Congress because they
• 1:53:43
  Speaker 1: you know, will sometimes get access to funded but it's
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: all parts of the federal government, people in the Defense Department,
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 1: government contractors. So this is clearly a potential loophole. And
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 1: I don't see you know, I know that the argument says, well,
• 1:54:03
  Speaker 1: and the problem is right, Congress is sitting there going
• 1:54:05
  Speaker 1: why do we have to play by one set of
• 1:54:08
  Speaker 1: rules while Donald Trump's going to play by no rules?
• 1:54:10
  Speaker 1: And I and how you apply this across government, I
• 1:54:14
  Speaker 1: think is quite difficult. Ultimately, we probably need a constitutional
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 1: minute when it comes to and probably just saying that.
• 1:54:22
  Speaker 1: You know, when you're in an office of public trust,
• 1:54:24
  Speaker 1: federal office, you know you can't you know you you know,
• 1:54:29
  Speaker 1: you got to put an upline trust, You got to
• 1:54:31
  Speaker 1: do maybe monthly reports. You know. I'm not saying people
• 1:54:33
  Speaker 1: are still going to find ways. Perhaps you know, a
• 1:54:36
  Speaker 1: crook's going to crook. But if you create more friction
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 1: in that process, create more accountability windows in that process,
• 1:54:43
  Speaker 1: you're at least going to minimize and at that point,
• 1:54:46
  Speaker 1: you know, perhaps shame and sunshine will will remind voters.
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: But the fact that voted right now, and especially you know,
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: you could have said forty years ago there weren't that
• 1:54:58
  Speaker 1: many people trading in the stock market. That's not the
• 1:55:00
  Speaker 1: case anymore. And it does feel you know, it's look,
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 1: we already know there are plenty of members of Congress
• 1:55:07
  Speaker 1: who suddenly end up purchasing land that they get to
• 1:55:12
  Speaker 1: decide what becomes an exit on a federal interstate, and
• 1:55:16
  Speaker 1: then suddenly that land is worth more money. That stuff's
• 1:55:19
  Speaker 1: been happening a long time. That's a little bit harder
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 1: to police. You know, stock trading is a little simpler
• 1:55:31
  Speaker 1: to do, And it seems like I do think this
• 1:55:35
  Speaker 1: is going to get some momentum, especially as there are
• 1:55:37
  Speaker 1: more and more. This feels like it's one of those
• 1:55:40
  Speaker 1: that left and the right are gonna that's one of
• 1:55:43
  Speaker 1: those that you're going to see a convergence on that one.
• 1:55:46
  Speaker 1: Number four Leadership packs right now, Leadership packs are essentially
• 1:55:51
  Speaker 1: little lifestyle slush funds for members of Congress. Leadership packs
• 1:55:55
  Speaker 1: they can pay for luxury travel, high end restaurants, expensive hotels,
• 1:56:00
  Speaker 1: you can create a family payroll, and it all can
• 1:56:02
  Speaker 1: be labeled as political activity. You know, hey, I've got to,
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 1: you know, go do this fundraiser in Puerto Rico. I
• 1:56:10
  Speaker 1: have my leadership pack pay for this nice resort and
• 1:56:13
  Speaker 1: we'll have some great dinners. And it basically became the loophole.
• 1:56:20
  Speaker 1: Since you couldn't use tearing your campaign accounting into personal funds,
• 1:56:24
  Speaker 1: these leadership packs became sort of the loophole for that.
• 1:56:28
  Speaker 1: They're ripe for abuse, and it's pretty clear that there
• 1:56:31
  Speaker 1: needs to be more accountability to them, not less lobbyists.
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 1: Bundling the fact that a single lobbyist right now can
• 1:56:37
  Speaker 1: gather twenty or thirty maxed out checks from clients and
• 1:56:40
  Speaker 1: then deliver them in one fell swoop, signaling influence within
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: that industry right without breaking contribution limits. So a pack
• 1:56:50
  Speaker 1: can help get you a million dollars in contributions, even
• 1:56:54
  Speaker 1: if it's twenty five hundred dollars at a time, and
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 1: creating the fact that that is And again, I think
• 1:57:05
  Speaker 1: bundling is hard to police. I'm not going to tell
• 1:57:09
  Speaker 1: you I have an easy way to come up with
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 1: a regulation that could minimum that could do this, but
• 1:57:15
  Speaker 1: just I think a lot of this stuff could probably
• 1:57:19
  Speaker 1: be solved with obsessive transparency at least where people you
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 1: forced sort of the Nascar effect. You force people to
• 1:57:31
  Speaker 1: have to show what they're doing, who's giving, and how
• 1:57:36
  Speaker 1: much they're giving at any one time. This is a
• 1:57:39
  Speaker 1: This is one that flies under the radar that sitting
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: members of Congress can negotiate private sector jobs while still
• 1:57:46
  Speaker 1: voting on legislation that might have an impact on their
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: future private sector employment. So, for instance, and we've seen this, right,
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: we saw Mark Green who was a member of Congress
• 1:57:56
  Speaker 1: and Tennessee. He seemed to be doing when negotiating figuring
• 1:58:01
  Speaker 1: out his private sector future he ends up eventually resigning,
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: but he was clearly in the middle of doing it,
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 1: then got exposed that he was doing it, and then
• 1:58:11
  Speaker 1: finally decided to quit quickly. The fact that it's legal
• 1:58:15
  Speaker 1: to negotiate future jobs with industries that are affected by
• 1:58:19
  Speaker 1: legislation they're currently voting on right now. They've put in
• 1:58:22
  Speaker 1: a cooling off period, but it only starts after you
• 1:58:25
  Speaker 1: leave office. There probably ought to be just a uh,
• 1:58:28
  Speaker 1: you know, I don't. It's it's sort of like you
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 1: get expelled, you lose your pension, like you know, some
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: penalty if you get caught negotiating for a job while
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: you're a sitting member of Congress and voting on that industry,
• 1:58:45
  Speaker 1: right that you've got to have some sort of disclosure
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 1: I'm doing this. Maybe you don't have to make a
• 1:58:49
  Speaker 1: public but maybe to the House Ethics Office or something.
• 1:58:54
  Speaker 1: Because most of the time the conflict that that you
• 1:58:56
  Speaker 1: know right now, it's the cooling. We've worried about former
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: lawmakers going right into lobbying, and there's cooling off periods
• 1:59:02
  Speaker 1: for that, but it's the negotiating why you're voting where
• 1:59:06
  Speaker 1: you have where it becomes potentially corruptible and of course,
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 1: the number one thing that is legal in this country
• 1:59:14
  Speaker 1: that frankly is a mistake that from the creation of
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 1: this great republic, and that is the presidential pardon power.
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 1: The fact that presidents can pardon political allies, donors, family members,
• 1:59:29
  Speaker 1: potential witnesses, even preemptively, with no transparency, no review, no limits.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 1: You know, I think it's out I think it was
• 1:59:37
  Speaker 1: outrageous that Joe Biden issued those those sort of pardons
• 1:59:43
  Speaker 1: before anything was happening. And it's even more outrageous that
• 1:59:47
  Speaker 1: every week Donald Trump seems to essentially sell pardons and
• 1:59:54
  Speaker 1: give pardons out to people who are either political allies
• 1:59:58
  Speaker 1: or financial of factors. But it is clearly a huge
• 2:00:07
  Speaker 1: gap in our system. It's going to take a constitutional
• 2:00:10
  Speaker 1: amendment to get rid of the presidential pardon now. You know,
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 1: I think that there's a way to reform it. You
• 2:00:18
  Speaker 1: create a pardon board. Maybe it you know, there's two
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 1: members of Congression leadership to Supreme Court justice, maybe the
• 2:00:25
  Speaker 1: two most senior Supreme Court justices, plus maybe the attorney general,
• 2:00:29
  Speaker 1: president and vice president. Something like that. You can create
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 1: a pardon board where you still have some but it's
• 2:00:35
  Speaker 1: got to go through a vetting process. And some sort
• 2:00:38
  Speaker 1: of process there it is, because right now I think
• 2:00:42
  Speaker 1: we've seen it's the greatest loophole that sits in the
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 1: Constitution for a president to abuse, and we probably have
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 1: a president right now that is abusing the pardon power
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 1: at a rate that no other president has even come
• 2:00:56
  Speaker 1: close to. So there you go, my top five lists
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 1: of things you wouldn't believe used to be legal, and
• 2:01:03
  Speaker 1: my top five list of things I can't believe are
• 2:01:06
  Speaker 1: still legal. Right a little ass, Chuck, Ask Chuck. First
• 2:01:23
  Speaker 1: question comes from Nick Denver, Colorado. Hey, Chuck, thanks for
• 2:01:26
  Speaker 1: the great content. What happened with the Supreme Court Tariff's case?
• 2:01:29
  Speaker 1: It seemed like a ruling was coming weeks ago, but
• 2:01:32
  Speaker 1: now there's silence. Are they delaying it to make the
• 2:01:34
  Speaker 1: policy harder to reverse and easier for Trump to get
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 1: what he wants? Also, is Trump unique in being an
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 1: unpopular populist? It is sort of a you know, if
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 1: you're put it this way, if you're an unpopular populist,
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: then you're no longer a populist, right because in theory,
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 1: a populist is supposed to always be the ultimate finger
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 1: in the wind politician. So yes, I think he is
• 2:02:01
  Speaker 1: a unicorn. I think what it's a reminder of that
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 1: populism isn't really an ideology or an agenda. And I think, frankly,
• 2:02:09
  Speaker 1: we're I think it's a lazy descriptive word. I've used
• 2:02:12
  Speaker 1: it way too often. You know. When I hear the
• 2:02:15
  Speaker 1: word populism, I can just tell you as I now,
• 2:02:20
  Speaker 1: I can tell you, as a Jewish American, I duck
• 2:02:23
  Speaker 1: and I assume, well, then what comes next is the
• 2:02:25
  Speaker 1: anti semitism, and as a matter if it comes from
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 1: the left or the right, But what this really is
• 2:02:30
  Speaker 1: is nationalism, right, It's economic nationalism, it's cultural nationalism. And
• 2:02:37
  Speaker 1: that's what Trump is. He's a nationalist, and that's not popular.
• 2:02:42
  Speaker 1: And ultimately, you know, right, we there are specific ideas
• 2:02:46
  Speaker 1: that get attributed to nationalists that are popular, but the
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 1: idea of being a nationalist is not popular. And I
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 1: think more and more people the reason he's unpopular, Nick,
• 2:02:55
  Speaker 1: is that I don't think he's viewed as a populist.
• 2:02:57
  Speaker 1: I think he's viewed more as an America first or
• 2:02:59
  Speaker 1: nation unless he's done a good job branding himself that way.
• 2:03:02
  Speaker 1: And I don't think that's just the popular position to be.
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 1: You know, yes, we're sort of we Americans are kind
• 2:03:08
  Speaker 1: of a tad more isolationist than Europeans. But emphasis on
• 2:03:14
  Speaker 1: the word tad on that one. All right, back to
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: your first question. Yeah, well, I mean this is the
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: you know, the lack of transparency of the Supreme Court
• 2:03:24
  Speaker 1: decision making process is one of those you know, only
• 2:03:29
  Speaker 1: only the Vatican is more opaque than the Supreme Court.
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 1: The longer this goes, the harder it is to turn.
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 1: I can tell you that, you know, it's clear that
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 1: Trump already has a plan to re implement the tariffs
• 2:03:50
  Speaker 1: in another way and essentially create another lawsuits. So I
• 2:03:54
  Speaker 1: do think this is going to let's say the ruling
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 1: comes out against them, then it becomes whack a mole.
• 2:04:00
  Speaker 1: The question is why is it taking so long? Could
• 2:04:02
  Speaker 1: it be that there are going to be multiple opinions.
• 2:04:05
  Speaker 1: Could it be that Roberts is looking for that Roberts
• 2:04:10
  Speaker 1: is looking for this goldilocks, you know, an opinion that
• 2:04:14
  Speaker 1: only applies to this specific case. Right. It seemed pretty
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 1: open and shut to a lot of legal analysts and
• 2:04:19
  Speaker 1: a lot of economic terr eff experts. But the longer
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: it takes, it's fair. I mean, my guess is more
• 2:04:25
  Speaker 1: people want to write opinions. That's usually what explains delays
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: is that you'll have you know, are we going to
• 2:04:32
  Speaker 1: have multiple sense? Are we going to have multiple concurrences?
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 1: That would be My guess is what's taking so long?
• 2:04:38
  Speaker 1: But I do think the White House has spent time
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: they've got in this case. They're obsessed with keeping this
• 2:04:46
  Speaker 1: tariff regime implemented in some form or another, because the
• 2:04:49
  Speaker 1: President likes the unilateral control it gives him in negotiating
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 1: with countries individually. They're going to find other ways to
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 1: challenge this. But you're right, it's been weird to wait
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 1: this long. Next question comes from Larry Kay. He goes,
• 2:05:04
  Speaker 1: not a question, but did you notice I live in
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 1: Overland Park, Kansas, and noticed that Congresswoman Cherise Davis recently
• 2:05:10
  Speaker 1: toured areas well outside her district, which don Dodge City, Colby,
• 2:05:13
  Speaker 1: which suggests she may be eyeing a run for Roger
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 1: Marshall Senate see. Trump's effort to redistrict her out of
• 2:05:18
  Speaker 1: the House may have pushed her in that direction, especially
• 2:05:20
  Speaker 1: as Marshall's more extreme pro magastances are alienating some voters
• 2:05:24
  Speaker 1: in eastern Kansas. With Kansas history of electing trailblazing senators.
• 2:05:28
  Speaker 1: It's an intriguing possibility. Larry, I am. I think Charise
• 2:05:32
  Speaker 1: Davis is an interesting politician. She's not easy to categorize
• 2:05:38
  Speaker 1: I have. I think she is one of the better
• 2:05:42
  Speaker 1: you know, a phrase I like to use political athlete,
• 2:05:44
  Speaker 1: and I think she's a really good political athlete. And
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 1: you know, if there was ever a political environment for
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 1: Democrats to get to take a shot at winning a
• 2:05:59
  Speaker 1: Senate seat and casas, by the way, they want a
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 1: Senate seat in Kansas since the early nineteen thirties, Okay,
• 2:06:04
  Speaker 1: I think it's thirty six, it was the last time
• 2:06:07
  Speaker 1: a Democrat won a Senates a US Senate seat in Kansas.
• 2:06:11
  Speaker 1: And Marshall has been more more, a little more trumpy
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 1: than I think the state of Kansas is, right, you know,
• 2:06:17
  Speaker 1: he certainly it's interesting. I would not be as bullish
• 2:06:21
  Speaker 1: on David's chances if it was if she were challenging
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 1: Jerry Moran. But Marshall has been a little more out
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 1: there on the conservative limb, which find in a primary
• 2:06:33
  Speaker 1: in Kansas these days. Like you know, I think I
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 1: think Kansas is light red, not dark red, and in
• 2:06:40
  Speaker 1: a political cycle like this one, where it looks like
• 2:06:43
  Speaker 1: the wind is blowing in the direction of the Democrats.
• 2:06:48
  Speaker 1: I think she's I can tell you this. I know
• 2:06:51
  Speaker 1: Chuck Schumer and others in the Senate are are working
• 2:06:55
  Speaker 1: hard to recruit her, So we'll say filing deadline hasn't past.
• 2:07:01
  Speaker 1: Next question comes from Mark h Alan, Texas. Hey, Chuck,
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 1: go Pats. Sorry you probably sent the question before the
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 1: Super Bowl. Sorry about that for you, he goes. I
• 2:07:12
  Speaker 1: rarely post political opinions, but after seeing how quickly the
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 1: victims in the Minnesota I shooting were demonized, they spoke
• 2:07:17
  Speaker 1: out and was immediately labeled as Satanists with TDS and
• 2:07:20
  Speaker 1: a trader the extreme content I was tagged in afterward.
• 2:07:22
  Speaker 1: Really highlights on toxic can polarize. The echo chambers have become.
• 2:07:25
  Speaker 1: How can we heal as a country with this kind
• 2:07:27
  Speaker 1: of division? Look, I think this is where you know
• 2:07:31
  Speaker 1: what's frustrating is that I do think the algorithms and
• 2:07:35
  Speaker 1: the tech companies have created an incentive structures to paint
• 2:07:41
  Speaker 1: a picture of division. You know, I constantly believe real
• 2:07:44
  Speaker 1: America is less divided than online America. Increasingly, I think
• 2:07:48
  Speaker 1: we're all worried that online America is invading real America
• 2:07:52
  Speaker 1: rather than real America bleeding into online America where we
• 2:07:55
  Speaker 1: toned things down. But this is where the tech companies
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: have a responsibility. Why are you you know, why why
• 2:08:01
  Speaker 1: are the why are you getting why are you seeing
• 2:08:04
  Speaker 1: all this extreme content? Right? The tech companies want to
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: make sure you see it, because what do they want
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 1: you to do? Make you angrier, make you respond more,
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 1: make you post more, make you sit on there more,
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 1: create more engagement. All they care about is the engagement.
• 2:08:22
  Speaker 1: Whether the engagement excites crazies or excites normies, it doesn't
• 2:08:28
  Speaker 1: matter as long as it creates engagement. And I think
• 2:08:31
  Speaker 1: you know, I hate I'm sorry this happened to you, Mark,
• 2:08:37
  Speaker 1: But in some ways more Americans need to experience how
• 2:08:40
  Speaker 1: much these algorithms. That's what I keep trying to tell people.
• 2:08:43
  Speaker 1: We're not as divided as cable TV and and and
• 2:08:47
  Speaker 1: these social media sites make it seem it really is.
• 2:08:51
  Speaker 1: It really is sort of these these warped incentive structures
• 2:08:55
  Speaker 1: for the information ecosystem that that makes it seem like
• 2:08:59
  Speaker 1: it's it's this crazy, because obviously we're not this crazy.
• 2:09:04
  Speaker 1: You just look at the polling. Right, Essentially most people
• 2:09:07
  Speaker 1: are somewhere in the middle, and they don't like how
• 2:09:09
  Speaker 1: divided we are. They don't like this divisiveness. All right,
• 2:09:15
  Speaker 1: next question, I'm going to make this the last question
• 2:09:19
  Speaker 1: for the day, but I promise, I know we've got
• 2:09:20
  Speaker 1: a lot in here, and I'm gonna I'm gonna make
• 2:09:23
  Speaker 1: sure the weekend mail bag is a little longer for
• 2:09:26
  Speaker 1: you since this, you know, twenty four hours. This is
• 2:09:29
  Speaker 1: just for the you know, the quick turnaround show. So
• 2:09:31
  Speaker 1: this question comes from also comes from Overland Park, Kansas.
• 2:09:34
  Speaker 1: Man two Overland Park, Kansas questions within within the same episode. Hey, Chuck,
• 2:09:42
  Speaker 1: was so much chaos from this administration, It's hard to
• 2:09:44
  Speaker 1: distinguish what matters most short term versus long term. I
• 2:09:46
  Speaker 1: wonder if a visual tool like a graph plotting events
• 2:09:49
  Speaker 1: by their short and long term INCAC could help news
• 2:09:52
  Speaker 1: organizations and the public better prioritize what deserves attention. For example,
• 2:09:56
  Speaker 1: Trump's self dealing might rank high short term but low
• 2:09:59
  Speaker 1: long term, while the decline of US alliances would score
• 2:10:02
  Speaker 1: high on both axes. I love podcasts. Appreciate how you
• 2:10:05
  Speaker 1: think through the issues. Helps me develop my own perspective.
• 2:10:08
  Speaker 1: That's all I'm trying to do. I am not trying
• 2:10:10
  Speaker 1: to tell you what your position should be. I'm trying
• 2:10:13
  Speaker 1: to give you as much context as I can possibly
• 2:10:15
  Speaker 1: give you so that you can make your own decision.
• 2:10:19
  Speaker 1: Then you add go big red because you're a Husker fan.
• 2:10:26
  Speaker 1: Football is better when Nebraska football is good and healthy.
• 2:10:32
  Speaker 1: I am not yet a rule truther, but I'm more
• 2:10:36
  Speaker 1: I'm still I'm still a believer in rule, but I
• 2:10:41
  Speaker 1: have a feeling this has got to be the year.
• 2:10:44
  Speaker 1: Twenty six has got to be the year where you
• 2:10:46
  Speaker 1: guys see eight or nine wins and what is it
• 2:10:51
  Speaker 1: You can't keep losing these these one score games anyway,
• 2:10:54
  Speaker 1: Sorry to rubsult in that room, Dave, that's an interesting
• 2:10:58
  Speaker 1: idea you have there, you know. I one of the
• 2:11:03
  Speaker 1: things I've tried to do is at least focus on
• 2:11:05
  Speaker 1: what Trump does, unless on what he says, right, And
• 2:11:08
  Speaker 1: I've and you've seen me, you know, every once in
• 2:11:10
  Speaker 1: a while a weigh in on something he says because
• 2:11:12
  Speaker 1: I think it is, you know, unnecessarily divisive or puts
• 2:11:16
  Speaker 1: us in a tough spot. But I kind of think
• 2:11:19
  Speaker 1: that's the real problem with the with the sort of
• 2:11:24
  Speaker 1: the legacy media, because they're still desperate for traffic deresper
• 2:11:28
  Speaker 1: for attention. So what do you do? The stuff he
• 2:11:30
  Speaker 1: says is very dramatic, and it really like you won't
• 2:11:34
  Speaker 1: believe what Trump said next, Yeah, you know, Okay, Trump
• 2:11:37
  Speaker 1: says crazy shit all the time. You know, it's when
• 2:11:40
  Speaker 1: he does stuff, you know, And I kind of think
• 2:11:43
  Speaker 1: the priority has to be on what he's doing, what
• 2:11:45
  Speaker 1: he's done, not what he says he might do. I'm
• 2:11:49
  Speaker 1: not saying you shouldn't ignore what he says he might do,
• 2:11:53
  Speaker 1: but I kind of think that that's where it sort
• 2:11:55
  Speaker 1: of learn to properly react, not overreactor, on to react.
• 2:12:00
  Speaker 1: And so my whole dividing line is what does he
• 2:12:04
  Speaker 1: do versus what he says? And then when he does
• 2:12:08
  Speaker 1: stuff based on what he has said, And I think
• 2:12:10
  Speaker 1: you've got to point that out too. But that's, you know,
• 2:12:14
  Speaker 1: that's the difficulty in both covering Donald Trump. It's the
• 2:12:19
  Speaker 1: difficulty in either being a supporter of Trump, covering Trump
• 2:12:22
  Speaker 1: or opposing Trump. He's all over the map. You know,
• 2:12:26
  Speaker 1: ask ask a Republican who's trying to defend Trump and
• 2:12:29
  Speaker 1: and say, you know, help me, help you right. One
• 2:12:33
  Speaker 1: doesn't always know where he's going to come down on
• 2:12:35
  Speaker 1: certain issues. So it is. He has made it very
• 2:12:38
  Speaker 1: difficult to be a supporter at times. He's made it
• 2:12:40
  Speaker 1: very difficult to just cover him as an observer, and
• 2:12:42
  Speaker 1: he's made it very difficult to be in opposition to
• 2:12:45
  Speaker 1: him at times because of the erratic and chaotic nature.
• 2:12:49
  Speaker 1: So ultimately I'm focusing. I try to focus more on
• 2:12:53
  Speaker 1: what he's doing and less on what he's saying. Not
• 2:12:58
  Speaker 1: ignoring it, but just trying to emphasize it. All Right,
• 2:13:02
  Speaker 1: I'm going to shut things down for all of twenty
• 2:13:05
  Speaker 1: four hours. I will be coming to you actually from
• 2:13:13
  Speaker 1: Cambridge for the next episode, or at least for pieces
• 2:13:17
  Speaker 1: of the next episode. I will have a longer mail
• 2:13:20
  Speaker 1: bag and I'll explain what I'm doing there. I'll give
• 2:13:22
  Speaker 1: you a little deep brief of a talk and a
• 2:13:25
  Speaker 1: conversation that I'll be having with folks at the Kennedy School,
• 2:13:30
  Speaker 1: and with that, I'll see you in twenty four hours.
• 2:13:33
  Speaker 1: Thanks for checking in.