Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Pink Clues on Board

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Body Bags with Joseph Scott Morgan: Pink Clues on Board · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:01
Speaker 1: Body bats with Joseph's gotten more. I don't know if
0:07
Speaker 1: this happens to everyone, and speaking as a man, I
0:16
Speaker 1: would like to think that maybe a couple of my
0:21
Speaker 1: male brotherren out there have had the same thought that
0:24
Speaker 1: at some point in time, when you're single in your life,
0:29
Speaker 1: you envision yourself as living, perhaps in a cabin somewhere
0:36
Speaker 1: by yourself, having to live off the land, or maybe
0:41
Speaker 1: just maybe you're traveling around the world by yourself, just
0:45
Speaker 1: drinking things in and absorbing things, or maybe something that
0:52
Speaker 1: I know that a lot of my friends have thought
0:55
Speaker 1: about doing. Living on a boat. Now on a boat,
1:00
Speaker 1: and it's certainly not a boat you could live on.
1:02
Speaker 1: It's just an old pontoon. I enjoy the piece of
1:04
Speaker 1: the water, but I've often wondered what would it be
1:08
Speaker 1: like even if the boat is moored in a harbor
1:13
Speaker 1: or maybe somewhere in a boat slip and every night
1:18
Speaker 1: you go to sleep to the sound of lapping outside
1:23
Speaker 1: of your window, or maybe the boat is gently rocking,
1:28
Speaker 1: and it might get to the point where you can't
1:31
Speaker 1: sleep anywhere else because it's almost like being cradled. You're sequestered.
1:39
Speaker 1: It's quiet, it's peaceful. Today I want to talk about
1:45
Speaker 1: a fellow who lived that life. He was in his sixties,
1:50
Speaker 1: successful attorney in the Boston area, and he lived on
1:55
Speaker 1: a boat with his dogs. But there was something or
2:02
Speaker 1: someone who visited him that, as it turned out, there
2:08
Speaker 1: were nothing but pure evil. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and
2:16
Speaker 1: this is body Backs, Dave. You've ever been in a position,
2:23
Speaker 1: I know I have where you have unexpected company that
2:28
Speaker 1: shows up at the house and you run around the
2:33
Speaker 1: house like a madman. Maybe the dogs start barking, and
2:36
Speaker 1: you look out the window and you see a car
2:38
Speaker 1: pull up in the driveway and you've got I don't know,
2:41
Speaker 1: dirty clothes laying about, You've got unwashed dishes sitting about,
2:46
Speaker 1: and you're running about and you're trying to get the
2:48
Speaker 1: place straightened up because you don't know who it is.
2:50
Speaker 1: Or maybe it's a close friend that didn't call in advance,
2:53
Speaker 1: hate the drop in visits by the way, and you're
2:57
Speaker 1: trying to pick up while they're trying to get there.
2:59
Speaker 1: Has that ever happened to you? I know it's happened
3:01
Speaker 1: to me any number of times.
3:02
Speaker 2: Every time anybody comes to my house, Yes, every time,
3:06
Speaker 2: and it's usually the dogs. It's yeah, because I'm dealing
3:09
Speaker 2: with that. I'm dealing with it. Yeah, every time it's
3:11
Speaker 2: like you say, hey, drop in. You know how I am.
3:14
Speaker 2: I am like, I'm I live a pretty uh not
3:17
Speaker 2: hermit like lifestyle because I don't live in a cave,
3:19
Speaker 2: but you know, kind of like that. I always wanted
3:21
Speaker 2: to live down a long and I mean like two
3:24
Speaker 2: or three mile long dirt road with trees on the
3:26
Speaker 2: sides that kind of created a tunnel and at the
3:29
Speaker 2: very end of it was just a wall, and I
3:31
Speaker 2: had a secret engines that went into an underground cave
3:33
Speaker 2: that let you know, that was what I wanted. So, yeah,
3:35
Speaker 2: I understand what it's like is whenever you show up
3:37
Speaker 2: at my house, you're gonna hear clattering, You're gonna hear
3:39
Speaker 2: stuff getting thrown into Bitter McGee's closet. Yeh, it's crazy.
3:43
Speaker 2: It's crazy time. And that's what I envisioned when police,
3:45
Speaker 2: you know what, twenty four year old son doesn't hear
3:48
Speaker 2: from his dad for a couple of days and he
3:50
Speaker 2: picks up the phone and calls police. Say, hey, I
3:52
Speaker 2: have a close relationship with my dad. He's a high
3:54
Speaker 2: flying attorney. Everybody knows who he is. Would you mind
3:57
Speaker 2: going and checking on Joe Donahue. It's in his house boat.
4:00
Speaker 2: It's more than the marina. Just go check on him.
4:03
Speaker 2: I can't get him on the phone. And that's what
4:05
Speaker 2: happened when police showed up. There's this twenty four year
4:08
Speaker 2: old young woman and she and Norah Nelson. She's running
4:13
Speaker 2: all over the place and police see that it is.
4:16
Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know what your background is with
4:19
Speaker 2: large boats, you know, yachts in a marina. I don't
4:22
Speaker 2: know if you're aware, but.
4:23
Speaker 1: Even I've never lived on one.
4:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, I can't imagine it's like. But they can tell
4:29
Speaker 2: what's going on inside something like that. They can hear,
4:33
Speaker 2: they can see you running back and forth because there
4:35
Speaker 2: are windows, and they saw that. They knew something was
4:39
Speaker 2: going on inside, and when sure, she won't.
4:43
Speaker 1: Let him in. Yeah, and this is the you know,
4:46
Speaker 1: the and unfortunately we've had to mention this before. This
4:50
Speaker 1: is the infamous welfare check that takes place. As you
4:56
Speaker 1: had mentioned. The victim in this case, his son, who
5:00
Speaker 1: you know, you get the impression they had pretty frequent contact,
5:08
Speaker 1: hadn't heard from his daddy, and so he wants to
5:12
Speaker 1: send the local constabulary out there to check, and when
5:17
Speaker 1: they get there, you've got this woman that's running about
5:20
Speaker 1: the boat. And you know, the thing about it is
5:22
Speaker 1: when when you're in law enforcement, it's not like you
5:27
Speaker 1: live with these people. It's not like you know these people.
5:31
Speaker 1: For all you know, she's domiciled there as well. That's
5:36
Speaker 1: the working assumption. They're not going to know whether or
5:39
Speaker 1: not this twenty this woman that's in her mid twenties
5:44
Speaker 1: is living on the boat with this gentleman that is
5:46
Speaker 1: north of sixty. Maybe they do have some kind of
5:50
Speaker 1: arrangement like that. You know, if the sun had been there,
5:56
Speaker 1: the son might have said, who is this person? Why
6:00
Speaker 1: are they there? But you know, the police are having
6:02
Speaker 1: to go from from the perspective of, well, she's supposed
6:07
Speaker 1: to be there, and to make matters worse if I'm
6:11
Speaker 1: not mistaken. As it turned out now her name is Nora.
6:16
Speaker 1: Now it turns out she misidentified herself. And say misidentified
6:22
Speaker 1: implies that you have made a mistake. And I hate
6:27
Speaker 1: it when people use the term, well it was a mistake.
6:31
Speaker 1: You know many people out there say I made a mistake.
6:35
Speaker 1: It's like, now, you didn't make a mistake. You intentionally
6:38
Speaker 1: did this? You lied?
6:40
Speaker 2: You.
6:40
Speaker 1: They don't know the word, They don't understand the meaning
6:42
Speaker 1: of the word mistake. Yeah, this happens in life throughout.
6:47
Speaker 2: But you know, what police know is that if you
6:49
Speaker 2: lie to them about your name, if you give them
6:52
Speaker 2: a name that is anything other than your own, chances
6:55
Speaker 2: are there's a reason for it. And in this case,
6:58
Speaker 2: Norah Nelson, she has a restaurants out for her, you know,
7:03
Speaker 2: and so they actually picked her up on another charge
7:06
Speaker 2: before they charged her with what we're going to talk
7:08
Speaker 2: about today. It's a crazy way to start things off.
7:12
Speaker 2: But when police show up to do a welfare check
7:15
Speaker 2: and there's somebody that's not letting them in the door, yeah,
7:19
Speaker 2: that's going to be just a tad of a problem.
7:21
Speaker 2: Especially you got a sixty five year old attorney, You've
7:24
Speaker 2: got a twenty four year old former ballerina greeting you
7:27
Speaker 2: at the door, and lo and behold, it looks like
7:29
Speaker 2: some of her pink fingernails are ripped out of her hand.
7:31
Speaker 2: So they've got a lot going on in a very
7:34
Speaker 2: small area, Joe. But police did get inside and they
7:39
Speaker 2: went you know, you've talked about shotgun houses and things
7:43
Speaker 2: like that, whenever that kicked. You're getting on a yacht,
7:45
Speaker 2: and I don't know because I've actually never been on
7:47
Speaker 2: a yacht. I've seen them on TV, but that's about it.
7:51
Speaker 2: But I'm going to go out and get into the
7:54
Speaker 2: galley area or a door, and I'm going to guess
7:57
Speaker 2: that you're going to be able to see from one
7:59
Speaker 2: end of the boat to the other.
8:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, most of the time you can, unless it's some
8:04
Speaker 1: one of these gigantic things that has a central hallway
8:08
Speaker 1: that has little you know, hallways that run off of it.
8:11
Speaker 1: But if that's the if that's what you're thinking about,
8:15
Speaker 1: that would be a massive, a massive, you know, a vessel.
8:20
Speaker 1: In this case, it's not a sailboat. This guy lives
8:23
Speaker 1: on and so it's not I mean, I'm sure that
8:27
Speaker 1: it's not a bad place to live. I'm sure it's
8:30
Speaker 1: quite nice, but it's not like a super yacht, you know,
8:33
Speaker 1: it's not like the thing that I think it was
8:35
Speaker 1: Bezos that if you, I don't know, if you remember
8:38
Speaker 1: the story, it blew my mind. The boat that he
8:41
Speaker 1: had commissioned, did you hear this? The boat that he
8:44
Speaker 1: had commissioned was actually so large they couldn't get it
8:48
Speaker 1: out of the mooring area that we're going to have
8:50
Speaker 1: to disassemble an ancient bridge in the in the location
8:54
Speaker 1: that the same It wasn't like that, all right. We're
8:56
Speaker 1: not talking about the q E two here.
8:58
Speaker 2: Or anything you give to the who has everything a
9:01
Speaker 2: both that has to be disassembled for delivery? Hey can
9:04
Speaker 2: Amazon deliver this? Let's find out.
9:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's like building a It's like building a submarine
9:09
Speaker 1: in a swimming pool. You know, I don't know how
9:11
Speaker 1: much good it's going to do you, but hey, you
9:13
Speaker 1: got a submarine. But yeah, and here's another thing also
9:17
Speaker 1: that again, you don't go into an environment like this
9:21
Speaker 1: as a police officer. And I like to show love
9:26
Speaker 1: to uniform police officers in particular because I teach them,
9:31
Speaker 1: and I when I teach them at the academy, those
9:37
Speaker 1: kids that are just entering into the world of law enforcement,
9:40
Speaker 1: I tell them that you might not perceive yourself as
9:43
Speaker 1: an investigator, but you truly are. As a matter of fact,
9:48
Speaker 1: you're first and foremost among all investigators because you're the
9:51
Speaker 1: initial point of contact and that information that you glean
9:56
Speaker 1: from any witnesses or potential suspects at the scene is
9:59
Speaker 1: very important to what other people are going to do,
10:02
Speaker 1: whether it's the forensics people or whether it's a homicide
10:05
Speaker 1: detective or burglary detective, whatever, because most of us don't
10:09
Speaker 1: show up, you know, sometimes for an hour after the
10:14
Speaker 1: initial event has occurred. So that bit of information that
10:17
Speaker 1: comes into them at that moment is crucial. And here's
10:22
Speaker 1: a nugget about this case, Dave, that is kind of interesting.
10:27
Speaker 1: When she Nora after she had given a false name
10:35
Speaker 1: and misidentified herself or intentionally misidentified herself. I'm stumbling over
10:44
Speaker 1: my words here. She told them when asked, you know,
10:50
Speaker 1: she's like, they're like, well, where is he? And she says, oh,
10:55
Speaker 1: he's at a strip club. Okay. Now, I say, in
10:59
Speaker 1: this sixty five your old guys don't go to strip clubs, okay.
11:02
Speaker 1: But out of all of the choices in the world,
11:05
Speaker 1: you know, he hadn't gone down the whole foods, he
11:07
Speaker 1: hadn't gone down the local coffee shop. You know, he
11:10
Speaker 1: wasn't out eating eating lunch with a buddy from work.
11:14
Speaker 1: Now he had gone to a strip club. So that's
11:17
Speaker 1: your default position here. You're going to tell us that
11:19
Speaker 1: he's gone to a strip club because you know, let's
11:22
Speaker 1: think about it. If you're truly planning something out, are you,
11:26
Speaker 1: Why in the world would you send Why in the
11:28
Speaker 1: world would you put the police on the scent of
11:32
Speaker 1: sending him to a strip club that is arguably one
11:35
Speaker 1: of the most observed locations that could possibly any person
11:39
Speaker 1: could land at, because not only do you have dancers there,
11:42
Speaker 1: you got you've got waiters, waitresses. Rather, you've also you've
11:47
Speaker 1: also got the guys that are running the place, the DJs,
11:50
Speaker 1: all of those sorts of people, the managers. Oh and
11:53
Speaker 1: by the way, you got CCTV. So you're going to
11:55
Speaker 1: do so he's gone to a strip club, that's what
11:57
Speaker 1: you're telling us. And so when you combine and that
12:00
Speaker 1: bit of information that seems obviously kind of sketchy up front,
12:05
Speaker 1: when you don't give them an actual name and you're
12:11
Speaker 1: running around like a chicken with their head cut off,
12:14
Speaker 1: and oh, by the way, your pink probably acrylic nails
12:20
Speaker 1: that are not actually yours are cracked off. From the beginning,
12:26
Speaker 1: those initial point of contact investigators, they're going to know
12:32
Speaker 1: something ain't right. David got a bit of sad news.
12:50
Speaker 1: You know, we're my family are dog lovers, and just
12:54
Speaker 1: like you, we we I don't go after pure breads.
12:57
Speaker 1: I love rescues because I feel the world is full
13:00
Speaker 1: of them and they need love. That's kind of been our
13:05
Speaker 1: you know, our motto in the Morgan household for years
13:08
Speaker 1: and years, and just yesterday, as we're speaking right now,
13:13
Speaker 1: our eighteen year old eight Yeah, and I got that.
13:16
Speaker 1: That's accurate. He's eighteen years old. Kimmy, my wife is
13:20
Speaker 1: probably the best dog mama that has ever walked the
13:23
Speaker 1: face of the planet. She can keep these dogs alive forever.
13:26
Speaker 1: I've got another one that is almost nineteen at home
13:29
Speaker 1: right now, a wheaatened terrier. But anyway, our eighteen year
13:34
Speaker 1: old rat terrier mixed Chihuahua. He died of liver failure
13:41
Speaker 1: yesterday and it has just absolutely broken our hearts. And
13:47
Speaker 1: his name was Otis. My son named him when Noah
13:51
Speaker 1: was let's say, I guess Noah was seven when he
13:54
Speaker 1: named him. Seven or seven or six, I can't remember.
13:58
Speaker 1: And Noah's graduated from college in just a couple of months.
14:02
Speaker 1: So that gives you gives you an idea, Kim says,
14:05
Speaker 1: Otis has traveled more than most people have traveled because
14:09
Speaker 1: we take our dogs with us everywhere. I think retalied
14:12
Speaker 1: he'd been to like thirteen or fourteen states or something
14:14
Speaker 1: like that. Pretty amazing. But other than the fact that
14:21
Speaker 1: Otis has passed on as a result of liver failure,
14:25
Speaker 1: Otis was probably the best on alarm system that we
14:30
Speaker 1: have ever had. I mean that dog. He would set
14:34
Speaker 1: your hair on end because it was so loud and
14:37
Speaker 1: so obnoxious anytime he heard anything. And he was one
14:40
Speaker 1: of these animals that was constantly on alert. Now you know,
14:46
Speaker 1: our wheatn terrier would just lay on the just lay
14:51
Speaker 1: on his bed and he might hear something coming up
14:53
Speaker 1: the walkway or here a door slam outside. Otis seems
14:57
Speaker 1: like he would start barking in advance, you two blocks
15:00
Speaker 1: in advance the person pulling up in the driveway. And
15:05
Speaker 1: the really sad thing here, the relative to our case today,
15:12
Speaker 1: is the fact that mister Donahue he had two little
15:15
Speaker 1: dogs that lived with him and those were his constant companions.
15:20
Speaker 1: And you know, when you're an investigator and you're at
15:23
Speaker 1: a scene one of the things that you've noticed, you
15:25
Speaker 1: will look around at home and you will see you'll
15:28
Speaker 1: see evidence of a life lived. I like to say that,
15:31
Speaker 1: you know it's something that's left behind dog bowls, and
15:34
Speaker 1: that includes what they're eating, water bowls or if there's
15:39
Speaker 1: a water dispenser, maybe a food dispenser. You also look
15:42
Speaker 1: for toys, You look for beds, You might even look
15:46
Speaker 1: for disruptions in furniture, and you would certainly look if
15:50
Speaker 1: the dogs shed hair, you could you could see. I
15:53
Speaker 1: can't tell you how many times I've sat in a
15:56
Speaker 1: home with somebody just doing an interview and I get
15:59
Speaker 1: up and invariably I'd be covered with pet hair, you know,
16:03
Speaker 1: on my pants or my shirt. So it's an it's
16:08
Speaker 1: it's evidence of a life lived. And we all, you know,
16:10
Speaker 1: live a particular way in our homes. And from mister Donahue,
16:15
Speaker 1: he had these animals in his house. But Dave, am
16:19
Speaker 1: I correct in say that the dogs were not or
16:27
Speaker 1: at least one of the dogs was not present. Is
16:30
Speaker 1: that accurate? Yep, one was.
16:32
Speaker 2: We don't actually know everything there is to know because
16:37
Speaker 2: they haven't released it. But one of the dogs was missing. Uh,
16:40
Speaker 2: they did find the dog, and we didn't even tell
16:44
Speaker 2: you guys what we actually found when they looked down
16:46
Speaker 2: the hallway when police finally got into the houseboat you know,
16:51
Speaker 2: because Norah Nelson greets them at the door and we'll
16:53
Speaker 2: let him in, and they finally, you know, that's where
16:56
Speaker 2: she comes up with, Oh yeah, he's at strip club.
16:59
Speaker 2: Go check him out there. And they're not buying. They're
17:01
Speaker 2: not buying what she's selling. So they make their way
17:03
Speaker 2: in and it doesn't take belong for them to go
17:06
Speaker 2: in and find the victim, sixty five year old Joseph Donahue.
17:12
Speaker 2: They find his body. It's in between his bedroom and
17:16
Speaker 2: a patio, near a sliding glass door. There's only one dog,
17:19
Speaker 2: and they know that he has two. They've been told
17:21
Speaker 2: this because his son is the one that said he's divorced,
17:24
Speaker 2: he has three adult children. He lives there by himself
17:26
Speaker 2: with two dogs. That was the info the police had
17:29
Speaker 2: when they got there. So they're greeted at the door
17:31
Speaker 2: by a young woman, probably not the most uncommon thing
17:34
Speaker 2: to a guy in his mid sixties of wealth on
17:36
Speaker 2: a houseboat. But they only find one dog, and they
17:39
Speaker 2: find mister Donahue and he's not having dinner. He is
17:43
Speaker 2: in the what you call the soupine position, yeah, yes,
17:47
Speaker 2: and he is assumed room temperature.
17:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, face up, yeah, And you know, and the question
17:55
Speaker 1: would be I would think that if you were a
17:57
Speaker 1: police officer, it's one thing to watch in and find
18:01
Speaker 1: a sixty five year old that has passed on. There
18:06
Speaker 1: are some reasonable explanations for that. But you know, when
18:09
Speaker 1: the police began to inspect the surrounding area, inspect his person,
18:19
Speaker 1: there's been a blood letting, Dave, the likes of which
18:23
Speaker 1: that uh, it's it's hard to describe, you know, how
18:29
Speaker 1: how you know how viciously this man had been killed
18:33
Speaker 1: on this boat, you know, And I've I'm not a
18:37
Speaker 1: fan of small spaces. It's not my thing. That's why
18:41
Speaker 1: I have a pontoon boat as opposed to some kind
18:43
Speaker 1: of closed boat that's got a cuddy cabin and all
18:47
Speaker 1: that sort of thing. I like it open. I don't, uh,
18:50
Speaker 1: you know, it's just part of who I am. I'm
18:52
Speaker 1: a gorphobic. I don't. I don't like people, you know,
18:55
Speaker 1: squeezing in on me. And can you imagine having somebody
18:59
Speaker 1: that is all indications at this point is wielding a
19:04
Speaker 1: sharp instrument. Where are you going to go? You know,
19:09
Speaker 1: in that tight space like that? And she's twenty four
19:13
Speaker 1: to twenty five, she's his age less, Yeah.
19:17
Speaker 2: Even she's younger than he is.
19:19
Speaker 1: Joe forty years younger than him, and hell is unleashed
19:23
Speaker 1: on this fellow, and you know where's he going to go?
19:27
Speaker 1: If she gets you backed into a corner and she's
19:29
Speaker 1: swinging a knife at you, which we believe is what happened.
19:33
Speaker 1: There's not too many locations that you can retreat to
19:38
Speaker 1: to get yourself clear out of the situation. And I
19:43
Speaker 1: want to go into his injuries that we know of
19:46
Speaker 1: so far, But.
19:46
Speaker 2: Before you do that, Joe, they saw blood. Police saw
19:50
Speaker 2: a lot of blood, and you go back to the
19:52
Speaker 2: confined area. There's just not so many places it can go.
19:55
Speaker 2: But when police saw the blood, where did this come from?
20:00
Speaker 2: You got to explain all these things if you're going
20:02
Speaker 2: to claim to have an innocent reason for being there,
20:05
Speaker 2: and then you better have an innocent reason for all
20:07
Speaker 2: this blood that police are seeing. Do you know what
20:09
Speaker 2: Norah Nilsen told police she was on her period, other.
20:13
Speaker 1: Than the fact that her name was Casey as opposed.
20:15
Speaker 2: To yeah, I'm sorry, yes, at that point, yeah, at
20:18
Speaker 2: that point she had not She told she lied to
20:20
Speaker 2: them to start. My name is Casey and he's at
20:22
Speaker 2: a strip club and all this blood you see right here,
20:25
Speaker 2: that's from I had my period and had an accident.
20:28
Speaker 2: That's what she told them. Yeah. Now I don't know
20:33
Speaker 2: any cop that would say, oh, that explains all the blood.
20:36
Speaker 2: We don't need to look for a missing man anymore.
20:38
Speaker 2: Have a great day. We'll go to the strip club
20:40
Speaker 2: and check out that story. Casey, right right, that didn't happen.
20:45
Speaker 2: Where's the other dog by the way?
20:47
Speaker 1: Yeah, And that's you know, as horrible as it is
20:51
Speaker 1: to think about, you know, the brutality that this man
20:56
Speaker 1: endured at her hand, allegedly, you begin to think about, well,
21:02
Speaker 1: the other evidence that the Sun has presented to the police,
21:06
Speaker 1: at least verbally per the welfare check request, is that
21:10
Speaker 1: he does have these two animals, and we know that
21:14
Speaker 1: at least one is missing. And David, you know, we
21:16
Speaker 1: come to find out, of course that you know that
21:21
Speaker 1: this is actually if you're not familiar with Boston, which Boston,
21:24
Speaker 1: by the way, is one of my favorite towns in
21:25
Speaker 1: the US. I love it. It's it's the only town
21:30
Speaker 1: that is the size that it is that feels like
21:34
Speaker 1: you're in a small town. I know that sounds crazy,
21:37
Speaker 1: but it's it's like I think it's the age of
21:40
Speaker 1: it and the way they've taken care of the town,
21:43
Speaker 1: respected the history of it, that it's like a collection
21:45
Speaker 1: like little villages and neighborhoods and that sort of thing.
21:48
Speaker 1: I always enjoyed going to Boston.
21:51
Speaker 2: Now, the fact that when you're when you're looking in
21:54
Speaker 2: Boston Harbor, so all of our American history that includes
21:57
Speaker 2: a lot of Boston and the harbors that they've actually kept.
22:00
Speaker 2: I have never been to Boston, just so you know,
22:02
Speaker 2: and up until this conversation, I didn't even think about
22:06
Speaker 2: how cool it would be to see that. I always
22:08
Speaker 2: think of Fenway Park, in the Green Monster and the
22:10
Speaker 2: historgan School. But you're talking about, like you can, all
22:14
Speaker 2: of our American history that has a touch, even Ben
22:17
Speaker 2: Franklin in Boston. You know, you've got him learning, and
22:21
Speaker 2: you have all of the other things of our American history,
22:23
Speaker 2: and it's still there. I mean, they actually have kept
22:26
Speaker 2: it alive. Like Philadelphia did with Liberty Bell, They've done
22:28
Speaker 2: the same thing there in Boston with keeping everything attack.
22:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, as a matter of fact, it's even more so
22:33
Speaker 1: for me. It is at least with Boston. You know,
22:35
Speaker 1: when you you walk down the streets and you know
22:38
Speaker 1: you go to the area in particular I'm thinking about
22:42
Speaker 1: Paul Revere's home, which is actually in Little Italy really actually, yeah,
22:48
Speaker 1: I actually attended, we visited. We actually visited Paul Revere's
22:54
Speaker 1: home and then walked up the street and there is
22:56
Speaker 1: a little Italian Catholic church that we went in and
23:01
Speaker 1: went into mass and the locals were speaking Italian to
23:08
Speaker 1: one another. It has a charm to it, and a
23:11
Speaker 1: little Italy kind of evolved over that area that where
23:14
Speaker 1: Paul Revere lived, and Paul Revere's home is certainly something
23:18
Speaker 1: to see as well. But you get a taste of
23:20
Speaker 1: that everywhere you go. And how much more so if
23:23
Speaker 1: you're an attorney like this gentleman that had lived there
23:28
Speaker 1: for years and years, you know, you're kind of part
23:30
Speaker 1: of that history. You know, in there and you're working
23:33
Speaker 1: downtown maybe at a firm, and everywhere you go you
23:36
Speaker 1: just drink it in and you see it, you know.
23:39
Speaker 1: So it's an incredible place. And where his boat was
23:42
Speaker 1: moored is actually Charlestown and it's one of the oldest
23:47
Speaker 1: sections and it's a desirable area, you know, to be in.
23:51
Speaker 1: So when you're talking about working what seemingly for the
23:54
Speaker 1: police is a brutal homicide that is located right there
23:59
Speaker 1: in what's referred to as Charlestown Harbors. It's pretty striking
24:06
Speaker 1: when you think about what the police are thinking, because
24:09
Speaker 1: this is this is not the type of event that
24:13
Speaker 1: you expect to happen there. Okay. Now, you can go
24:16
Speaker 1: to certain areas and I'm not going to name them,
24:18
Speaker 1: but there are certain neighborhoods, you know, just like every
24:20
Speaker 1: city does, where you know you're going to expect a
24:23
Speaker 1: certain level of violent crime and maybe a certain level
24:25
Speaker 1: of brutality. But to have it at this point because
24:30
Speaker 1: first off, if you're living on a boat that's moored
24:34
Speaker 1: in Charlestown like this, financially you're in a slouch. Okay,
24:41
Speaker 1: Boston's an expensive place to live, and so you're living
24:45
Speaker 1: in this area that doesn't know crime like this, Dave.
24:48
Speaker 1: And now you've got someone that is there this present,
24:52
Speaker 1: that is obviously trying to deceive you, according to the police, allegedly,
24:59
Speaker 1: and then you you begin to try to understand the
25:02
Speaker 1: level of brutality that you're talking about here, Joe.
25:05
Speaker 2: When they get there and they see what appears to
25:08
Speaker 2: be a body and it's you know, they don't get
25:10
Speaker 2: a clear shot at the body because he's wrapped up
25:13
Speaker 2: in something. Yeah, do police on the scene when they
25:16
Speaker 2: show up and they see blood and they see what
25:19
Speaker 2: they can only assume is a victim who is rolled
25:24
Speaker 2: up in a carpet and it appears that it's been
25:27
Speaker 2: duct taped and there are some weights tied in the hands.
25:30
Speaker 2: I mean, what are they going to do? Are they
25:32
Speaker 2: going to just cut it all open right there and
25:34
Speaker 2: unroll it and.
25:34
Speaker 1: See the boy? That's that's a fantastic question. As a
25:38
Speaker 1: forensic scientist, you can imagine what our preference would be
25:44
Speaker 1: if you suspect that it's a body, uh, and it's.
25:47
Speaker 2: Wrapped, Please don't don't touch, right, yeah.
25:49
Speaker 1: Look, don't touch. But you know, conversely, the police will say, well,
25:54
Speaker 1: there's no way that we can confirm that it is
25:57
Speaker 1: body now in this case, thing that you could because
26:00
Speaker 1: because you know you're talking about the hands are obviously
26:04
Speaker 1: visible and they have been weighted and specifically with what
26:09
Speaker 1: we don't really know at this point in time. More
26:12
Speaker 1: information is going to be released, but they've been taped. Now,
26:15
Speaker 1: just imagine the effort that has to go through that. So, yeah,
26:19
Speaker 1: you would initially there are places that will in fact
26:24
Speaker 1: open up this cocooned body, open up the outer covering,
26:29
Speaker 1: and begin to inspect the body. The preference would be
26:33
Speaker 1: is that you note that the body is covered. You
26:38
Speaker 1: know that there's a lot of blood. There's no I
26:39
Speaker 1: don't care what kind of covering you put over bodies,
26:42
Speaker 1: there's going to be blood outside of that area. The
26:45
Speaker 1: fact that she would blame this on her mensies is
26:50
Speaker 1: just yeah, it's as you know, it's as crazy as him.
26:54
Speaker 1: It's crazier than him being at the strip club. That
26:56
Speaker 1: that volume of blood that you're talking about that they
26:59
Speaker 1: would have borne witness too, would have been explained that way.
27:03
Speaker 1: And listen, there's part of you as an investigator, and
27:07
Speaker 1: certainly if you want to begin to work this case
27:11
Speaker 1: in an effective manner, you want to have as much
27:13
Speaker 1: information as you can from Jump Street right then and there,
27:17
Speaker 1: so you know, outcomes a knife. Perhaps you know that
27:21
Speaker 1: you see police officers have knife that's clipped to their
27:23
Speaker 1: belt or clipped in their pocket, and they begin to
27:26
Speaker 1: slice open the bag or cut open anything that's holding
27:29
Speaker 1: the bag together, and they want to peer inside and
27:32
Speaker 1: see what they're dealing with. But my Lord Dave, when
27:38
Speaker 1: they finally got a view of what was happening inside
27:44
Speaker 1: of that bag and what someone had tried to shield
27:48
Speaker 1: them from by covering this gentleman. They didn't know what
27:53
Speaker 1: to make of it. All they knew is that this
27:56
Speaker 1: was a complete and total horror show. I may have
28:13
Speaker 1: mentioned this before, David, I have never been. I guess
28:19
Speaker 1: I just don't have the patience for it. You would
28:20
Speaker 1: think that being a forensics guy and looking at the
28:25
Speaker 1: minutia that we have to deal with, I'd be a
28:28
Speaker 1: fan of jigsaw puzzles. I never have been. It's tedious
28:33
Speaker 1: to me for some reason. You begin to, you know,
28:38
Speaker 1: think about putting together or trying to reconstruct problems at scenes.
28:47
Speaker 1: But you know, there was a bit of a puzzle
28:51
Speaker 1: that was left behind at the death scene of mister
28:56
Speaker 1: Donahue here on his boat, and here it is. It's
29:01
Speaker 1: actually the murder weapon. When an examination was conducted of
29:08
Speaker 1: this gentleman's body, Dave, and just let me let this
29:12
Speaker 1: sink in just for a second. When examination was done
29:16
Speaker 1: of his body, this gentleman had been stabbed so hard
29:23
Speaker 1: with a knife that in his skull the knife tip
29:29
Speaker 1: had broken off. It had actually fractured. This is you know,
29:35
Speaker 1: I think that People don't take me seriously when I
29:39
Speaker 1: talk about doing head to toe X rays on bodies.
29:43
Speaker 1: They think that it's only something that should be done
29:46
Speaker 1: in in extreme cases. I'm a big proponent of X
29:50
Speaker 1: raying every single body that comes through the morgue because
29:54
Speaker 1: you know, there's certain things that we can show you
29:57
Speaker 1: a picture of we could potentially and run the risk
30:03
Speaker 1: in court that because the gruesome nature of it is
30:08
Speaker 1: going to be it's going to be dismissed or they're
30:12
Speaker 1: going to exclude it, you know, because you have to
30:14
Speaker 1: go through all of the pictures. Did you know this.
30:17
Speaker 1: You have to go through all of the sub crimescene
30:18
Speaker 1: photos many times in pre trial motion, and they're going
30:21
Speaker 1: to decide what will be admitted and what will not
30:24
Speaker 1: be admitted. And most of the time the defense is
30:28
Speaker 1: going to argue with crime scene photos and autopsy photos.
30:31
Speaker 1: They'll say that, well, it's you know, it's prejudicial because
30:35
Speaker 1: it's so gruesome. It's going to you know, they think
30:38
Speaker 1: that the jury is going to want, you know, their
30:40
Speaker 1: pound of flesh for it.
30:41
Speaker 2: Never understood that. It seems to me like, if I've
30:43
Speaker 2: got a picture of the crime scene, then yeah, if
30:46
Speaker 2: it's too prejudicial. Maybe your guys shouldn't have done it.
30:49
Speaker 1: You know, yeah, yeah, that that's I think that a
30:53
Speaker 1: reasonable person would say that. But you know, for a
30:56
Speaker 1: defense attorney out there, they're trying everything they can to
31:00
Speaker 1: knock holes in the case of the prosecution. And you know,
31:03
Speaker 1: they'll say, well, the prosecution has this entire array of
31:08
Speaker 1: scientific experts and technology and all these things. They you know,
31:13
Speaker 1: they're going to say, well, we we want the prosecution
31:20
Speaker 1: to do this absent all of the gruesome things that
31:24
Speaker 1: obviously took place at the scene. But yet you know,
31:27
Speaker 1: the defendant who is being accused is probably responsible for it. Now,
31:30
Speaker 1: they're innocent until proven guilty. But they're going to argue that.
31:33
Speaker 1: And I've had it happen any number of times, you know,
31:37
Speaker 1: in cases I've been involved in. But you know, the
31:39
Speaker 1: one thing that they can't argue with is that radio
31:43
Speaker 1: opaque image of If you'll just if you'll just think
31:48
Speaker 1: in your mind, if anyone in the audience has ever
31:52
Speaker 1: seen this, or maybe you've seen this before, dave a
31:56
Speaker 1: kind of jagged, triangular shaped tip of a blade on
32:00
Speaker 1: an X ray. There's no blood with that. You might
32:04
Speaker 1: see a fracture line, but there's there's nothing necessarily grotesque
32:09
Speaker 1: about that, but it's indicative of a tremendous amount of
32:14
Speaker 1: force because most people understand the thickness of their skull,
32:17
Speaker 1: some more than others, and they understand what it would
32:22
Speaker 1: take to drive a steel blade into a surface and
32:28
Speaker 1: then snap it off. And I'm thinking, in leaving it behind.
32:32
Speaker 2: If you're the defense this ballerina, you really think she
32:36
Speaker 2: could stick that knife into that head and break it off.
32:39
Speaker 2: She's dainty, she's a ballerina. She could never do this,
32:43
Speaker 2: you really, I mean, cause it is going to take
32:45
Speaker 2: a lot of forest show. And granted, I'm being funny
32:47
Speaker 2: there when I say, because I have been around ballerinas,
32:50
Speaker 2: and believe me, they're not weaklings. To be a ballerina,
32:53
Speaker 2: you've got to be strong. Yeah, there's not an ounce
32:55
Speaker 2: of fat on you. It's all muscle there is.
32:58
Speaker 1: My daughter was in ballet for a long long time.
33:01
Speaker 2: Tricked everybody. I took ballet when I was in high school.
33:03
Speaker 2: I was the only actually only heterosexual guy in the class.
33:07
Speaker 1: Wow, a lot of girls of my age.
33:09
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think the right time, in the right place
33:11
Speaker 2: to be that guy. Believe me.
33:13
Speaker 1: There you go, that's the reason you glot so easily
33:15
Speaker 1: across the floor, I've seen you.
33:18
Speaker 2: But think about it when you've got that knife though,
33:21
Speaker 2: breaking off, I mean, that's going to take some course.
33:23
Speaker 2: So I'm thinking, if I've got somebody I can paint
33:26
Speaker 2: as dainty, I'm going to get the jury looking at
33:29
Speaker 2: me like, you're right, how could because my head, you're
33:32
Speaker 2: not going to be able to get it in there
33:33
Speaker 2: very easy. But if you've ever got an axe stuck
33:36
Speaker 2: into a log of wood, or a knife, if you're
33:37
Speaker 2: trying to do some camping like that and you're trying
33:39
Speaker 2: to get some you know how it is to get
33:42
Speaker 2: one of those things stuck but into a head. How
33:45
Speaker 2: difficult is it?
33:46
Speaker 1: Joe, Well, let me let me kind of lay this
33:49
Speaker 1: out to you, because this goes to this goes further
33:52
Speaker 1: to how how much trauma mister Donahue had sustained Dave.
33:59
Speaker 1: Because I think that you know that the knife to
34:05
Speaker 1: the skull was you know, the coup de gras if
34:08
Speaker 1: you will, that that's going to be the final act
34:10
Speaker 1: in this. What had happened prior to this is that
34:14
Speaker 1: police are describing the injuries that he had sharp force injuries.
34:21
Speaker 1: They are describing them in terms of dozens, so even
34:26
Speaker 1: still weakens over period of time. So if this blade
34:31
Speaker 1: is being utilized and being stuck into this gentleman's body
34:38
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, it's going to weaken.
34:44
Speaker 1: At some point in time, the structural as they say,
34:47
Speaker 1: the structural integrity of this thing is going to begin
34:49
Speaker 1: to break down. So when you finally get to a
34:53
Speaker 1: bone that is as robust as what's referred to as
34:59
Speaker 1: the external tape of the skull, if you just tap
35:02
Speaker 1: on the top of your head, that bone in that
35:06
Speaker 1: particular area, if it's the top of the head, is
35:09
Speaker 1: rather robust and thick as opposed to you know, if
35:12
Speaker 1: you think forward of your ear. Everybody talks about how
35:15
Speaker 1: dangerous and thin the temporal bone is, and it is.
35:19
Speaker 1: It's very thin. But on top that bone is very robust.
35:22
Speaker 1: So if this knife is being struck over and over
35:26
Speaker 1: and over again into his remains or into his body,
35:32
Speaker 1: when you finally drive that knife into his skull and
35:36
Speaker 1: that tip breaks off, it should not necessarily be unexpected.
35:42
Speaker 1: And then perhaps and I have no way of knowing this,
35:45
Speaker 1: she stopped at that point in time. Allegedly, she there's
35:49
Speaker 1: no way of knowing sequencing. However, you could go back.
35:54
Speaker 1: This is kind of an interesting point. You can go
35:58
Speaker 1: back and you take a look at the totality of
36:02
Speaker 1: all of these injuries, and each one of them would
36:04
Speaker 1: have to be closely examined. And I hope that they
36:07
Speaker 1: did that in this case, and I suspect that they
36:09
Speaker 1: probably did. The Boston and Me is really good. Did
36:13
Speaker 1: you know that the nature of those injuries being generated
36:21
Speaker 1: by this blade, their appearance will actually change if in fact,
36:28
Speaker 1: that knife tip has broken off, has been left behind
36:30
Speaker 1: in the skull, and then she continues to rage with
36:34
Speaker 1: this blade on his body, the external appearance of the
36:40
Speaker 1: injuries can change. And that would be a real puzzle
36:44
Speaker 1: as well, because you begin to look at them, and
36:47
Speaker 1: because you've got a jagged leading edge where that blade
36:50
Speaker 1: has broken off, you can actually see the injury itself
36:55
Speaker 1: as looking irregular. Now, I always describe to my students
37:00
Speaker 1: that with a single we're not talking about a dagger,
37:03
Speaker 1: we're talking about a single edge weapon. It almost looks
37:07
Speaker 1: like a winking eye. So if you think about the
37:10
Speaker 1: back or the you know, the that the robust, unsharpened
37:16
Speaker 1: side of the blade, that's kind of like the inner
37:20
Speaker 1: corner of an eye. Okay, when you're looking at it
37:24
Speaker 1: from above the outer edge of the injury, it's going
37:28
Speaker 1: to look like the outer side of your eye. It
37:32
Speaker 1: comes to a finer point, and so I often describe
37:35
Speaker 1: to my students that it looks like a winking eye.
37:38
Speaker 1: You know, the nature of that can change slightly. You
37:40
Speaker 1: can have a little abraided area if the blade is
37:43
Speaker 1: kind of jagged and broken off at that point in time.
37:47
Speaker 1: So that would be very interesting. And I got to
37:49
Speaker 1: tell you when this case finally does come to trial,
37:53
Speaker 1: that's going to be one of the questions that the
37:57
Speaker 1: medical examiner is going to be asked while they're on
37:59
Speaker 1: the stand.
38:01
Speaker 2: You know, you mentioned the knife and being broken off
38:04
Speaker 2: and trying to determine, you know, was that the last
38:06
Speaker 2: knife wound. Well, they found you know, we mentioned how
38:10
Speaker 2: he had two dogs. Yes, one dog was missing. They
38:13
Speaker 2: did find that dog in the harbor, dead, floating, and
38:17
Speaker 2: they did find the rest of the knife that they
38:20
Speaker 2: believe they believe. You know, Now, it was interesting when
38:23
Speaker 2: they said they believe they found the rest of the
38:26
Speaker 2: murder weapons, because well, they have a knife they found
38:29
Speaker 2: in the harbor, and then they have a piece of
38:31
Speaker 2: the knife stuck in the guy's head and they can
38:34
Speaker 2: match the two of them up. So it's not a
38:35
Speaker 2: big leap to say this is not the Gensu knife
38:39
Speaker 2: that was used in a TV commercial and then discarded,
38:41
Speaker 2: you know, And I'm thinking, did they look at those
38:46
Speaker 2: because you're talking dozens of injuries to the chest, neck ahead,
38:51
Speaker 2: did they do all that they're on the boat. Did
38:53
Speaker 2: they start looking at those injuries there or was it
38:56
Speaker 2: after because they had to get him out from that
38:58
Speaker 2: cocoon of duct tape and waits on his hand, you know,
39:02
Speaker 2: being a sad weights affixed to his body because the
39:06
Speaker 2: person who did this murder was trying to roll the
39:08
Speaker 2: body up, tape it up, put weights on it, and
39:10
Speaker 2: sticking in the harbor with the dog, and that's all
39:12
Speaker 2: you can think of. And didn't get that far.
39:15
Speaker 1: Right now, if the question you're asking me, did they
39:18
Speaker 1: ask begin to look at the skull and they said,
39:23
Speaker 1: oh my god, you know there's a blade or something
39:27
Speaker 1: stick it out you You might could appreciate that. I'll
39:33
Speaker 1: tell you this very quickly. I've actually cut my hand
39:36
Speaker 1: while examining while examining human remains, I've nicked my hand
39:43
Speaker 1: on a broken blade before, but more frequently I have
39:48
Speaker 1: cut my hand on human bone. If there are horrible
39:52
Speaker 1: fractures to the skull, So as you're pal painting the
39:57
Speaker 1: external table, and that's what it's referred to as a
39:59
Speaker 1: fancy turn and for saying you're you're examining with your hands,
40:03
Speaker 1: you're examining the surface of the skull. You're trying to
40:06
Speaker 1: appreciate if there are any fractures and if there are
40:10
Speaker 1: if there are any defects, which we've talked about before
40:13
Speaker 1: on body bags, which are generally holes. It's a fancy
40:16
Speaker 1: term for hole. We use it with knife defects, and
40:18
Speaker 1: we use it with gunshot wounds as well, and there
40:23
Speaker 1: are other things puncture wounds, that sort of thing will
40:26
Speaker 1: call defects. But you're going to run your hand over
40:29
Speaker 1: that area and there's a chance that you can find
40:32
Speaker 1: this fractured area and you could feel it. Now, would
40:37
Speaker 1: they have attempted to match us up. No, not at
40:40
Speaker 1: the scene. As a matter of fact, they're going to
40:42
Speaker 1: feverishly be looking for that knife. Now they will have
40:45
Speaker 1: you know, no pun intended here, but nautical term here.
40:50
Speaker 1: They will search that boat from stem to stern and
40:53
Speaker 1: if they can't find the knife there. What's your next choice, Well,
40:58
Speaker 1: you can call the dive team and God bless us guys,
41:02
Speaker 1: because it's not a job I would want, particularly there
41:05
Speaker 1: in that particular harbor. You're not talking about it's not
41:08
Speaker 1: like you're in Saint Croix. You're talking about a muddy,
41:12
Speaker 1: silty bottom. You can't see, you can't see your hand
41:18
Speaker 1: in front of your face. So a lot of you
41:21
Speaker 1: know a lot of what is done by these divers,
41:25
Speaker 1: which you know there is an entire specialty within forensic
41:28
Speaker 1: science that is called underwater crime scene processing. You do
41:33
Speaker 1: with your hands. You literally kind of crawl along the
41:36
Speaker 1: silty bottom and you're feeling all along to see what
41:40
Speaker 1: you can feel. Now, here's the other thing. The assumption
41:46
Speaker 1: is is that moored in the same harbor area the marina,
41:51
Speaker 1: if you will, there are other people living there, right, okay,
41:55
Speaker 1: And we all know what human beings generate as they're
41:58
Speaker 1: living in a particular area. It's garbage and it's nothing
42:02
Speaker 1: to have somebody to take something and just throw it over.
42:05
Speaker 1: How many other knives are out there? How many other
42:07
Speaker 1: utensils are out there? Are there guns out there? I
42:10
Speaker 1: don't know, Maybe there are I wouldn't think guns as
42:14
Speaker 1: opposed to utensils. But there's all kinds of stuff you're
42:18
Speaker 1: going to be putting your hands on, you know, as
42:20
Speaker 1: you're kind of climbing along or crawling along the bottom
42:23
Speaker 1: of this murky bottom. The fact that they found this
42:27
Speaker 1: thing is amazing. But you know what's more amazing me
42:31
Speaker 1: and Dave, I don't know that in any of the
42:33
Speaker 1: cases that we've covered, I've ever heard this, and you
42:35
Speaker 1: actually brought this out to me, And thank you for
42:39
Speaker 1: telling me about this, because this is if you want friends,
42:44
Speaker 1: if you want to get an idea how violent this
42:47
Speaker 1: event was. Tell me again, Dave, what were the color
42:51
Speaker 1: of those fingernails?
42:53
Speaker 2: Pink?
42:54
Speaker 1: Long? They were penails, And you brought this out to me, Dave.
42:57
Speaker 1: Her fingernail had broken off in mister don Hugh's chest.
43:04
Speaker 1: So we're not talking about an individual that is merely
43:08
Speaker 1: striking him with a knife. We're talking about potentially a
43:14
Speaker 1: subject that is driving her finger nails into this man
43:21
Speaker 1: as he is being attacked so much to the point
43:24
Speaker 1: where the nail itself snaps off. You know, I was
43:29
Speaker 1: tempted just a moment ago when you were you know,
43:31
Speaker 1: when we were having a discussion about matching matching this up.
43:36
Speaker 1: And I would love to know how the police handle
43:38
Speaker 1: this matching the blade up, you know, with the tip
43:42
Speaker 1: the discovered, which is easily done, and that would have
43:46
Speaker 1: been done. That would go to actually the tool mark
43:49
Speaker 1: section at the at the State Crime Lab. They will
43:52
Speaker 1: take the actual knife that they recovered off the bottom
43:55
Speaker 1: and then that piece that the emmy recovered at post.
44:00
Speaker 1: They'll send those to the tool mark section at the
44:03
Speaker 1: State Crime Lab and the toolmark examiner will actually marry
44:07
Speaker 1: those things up and look at the fracture line along
44:10
Speaker 1: that and that's they spent a lot of time looking
44:12
Speaker 1: at fracture lines, believe it or not. That's that's one
44:14
Speaker 1: of the things that's a tedious job. I couldn't do it,
44:16
Speaker 1: but they're really good at it. But Dave, we're talking
44:22
Speaker 1: about a fingernail here. I wonder when they retrieve this
44:27
Speaker 1: thing at the scene or at the morgue that was
44:32
Speaker 1: embedded in his chest, if how good of photographs they
44:36
Speaker 1: would have taken of her hands. Because any police department
44:40
Speaker 1: worth their salt, one of the things that you do
44:42
Speaker 1: with suspected perpetrators, and she is a suspect. It's my
44:46
Speaker 1: understanding Dave, that she has in fact been charged with
44:50
Speaker 1: mister Don Hughes's homicide, and I think.
44:53
Speaker 2: That you had mentioned she.
44:56
Speaker 1: Okay, okay, she entered a plea of not guilty. So
45:02
Speaker 1: my question is when they got her back to headquarters,
45:06
Speaker 1: which they would have because they're going to try to
45:07
Speaker 1: get a statement from her. One of the things that
45:11
Speaker 1: is always done. You'll see this on TV and shows
45:13
Speaker 1: that kind of you know, they'll tangentially talk about it
45:16
Speaker 1: every now and then. Did they take photographs of her hands?
45:19
Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about like at a distance. I'm
45:22
Speaker 1: talking about lay your hands flat on the table. We're
45:25
Speaker 1: going to take a superior photograph of your hand. And
45:28
Speaker 1: then they would zoom in on that nail and they
45:30
Speaker 1: would put a scale with it to a little measuring
45:32
Speaker 1: device that would give you an idea of the size
45:35
Speaker 1: of her finger. And then this this bit of nail
45:39
Speaker 1: that was recovered. Because I've had broken nails before, not
45:44
Speaker 1: me personally, but I've worked cases where individuals have broken
45:48
Speaker 1: off nails, but I don't ever re recall something that's
45:52
Speaker 1: kind of over the top like this, where you've got
45:54
Speaker 1: this this pink color. She's you know, driving her her
45:59
Speaker 1: nail her fingernails into the body, allegedly, and they're snapping off,
46:04
Speaker 1: which takes some amount of force. If they're actually being
46:08
Speaker 1: fractured and snapped off at that point in time, I'm
46:11
Speaker 1: wondering what are the kind of injuries she had on her.
46:14
Speaker 1: I'm also wondering what are the kind of injuries mister
46:16
Speaker 1: Donahue had on him? Did he have defensive ones because
46:19
Speaker 1: they described us in the dozens day they described us
46:22
Speaker 1: in the dozens, So are we talking about dozens of
46:26
Speaker 1: stab wounds and cuts or sharp force injuries where he
46:30
Speaker 1: was trying to block with his arm. Does he have
46:33
Speaker 1: other scratches on his body? Did he have scratches on
46:36
Speaker 1: his face where she's trying to rake his eyes in
46:39
Speaker 1: some way to inflict as much damage as she possibly can. Forensically,
46:45
Speaker 1: this case is very, very rich. There's so much to
46:50
Speaker 1: kind of delve into, and in my opinion, in my opinion, Dave,
46:55
Speaker 1: when you combine the trauma that mister don Hue sustained,
47:01
Speaker 1: the fractured knife, the deposition of blood, the coverings that
47:06
Speaker 1: are used to try to wrap his body, these weights
47:09
Speaker 1: that were taped to his hands, and of course the
47:12
Speaker 1: remains of this little dog and how that little dog died.
47:18
Speaker 1: This is an evidence rich case and forensics is going
47:23
Speaker 1: to tell the tale. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this
47:30
Speaker 1: is body packs