Latest / Pod Save America / Thanksgiving Mailbag: Trans Rights, Progressive Media, and Skinny Jeans

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Thanksgiving Mailbag: Trans Rights, Progressive Media, and Skinny Jeans · Pod Save America

• 0:20
  Speaker 1: Welcome to Pod Save America. I'm Jon Favreau.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: I'm Jon Lovett.
• 0:22
  Speaker 3: I'm Tommy Detour.
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: Welcome to our annual Thanksgiving mailbag. You know, it's a
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: tradition here at Pod Save America. We pulled a lot
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: of these questions from our subscriber discord this year, which
• 0:34
  Speaker 1: reminds me, we're currently offering 25% off new annual subscriptions
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: to Friends of the Pod.
• 0:38
  Speaker 3: That's a deal.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Gets you access to bonus pods, ad-free Pod Save America episodes,
• 0:42
  Speaker 1: and more. You can sign up at crooked.com slash friends. Also,
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: check out this week's Pod Save the World featuring Malala. Yeah.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: You got Malala? We got her.
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: Ben sat down with her a couple weeks ago. She's
• 0:55
  Speaker 3: an executive producer on a film. coming out about Afghanistan.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: It's supposed to be incredibly good.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: She also talks about what happened when the Taliban took
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: back Afghanistan in 2021, including her perspective on the fall
• 1:05
  Speaker 1: of Kabul and the women's protest movement that followed.
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: We just cut a joke about Malala.
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: Second one you've made this year. You made one in
• 1:16
  Speaker 1: the book.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, let's leave that one in and then keep going.
• 1:19
  Speaker 1: All right. Thanks to everyone who sent in questions. Let's
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: get into it. Subscriber Ian on our Discord asks, I'm
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: on the left end of the spectrum, but I'm a
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: Democrat because I have long believed that this party was
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: the best viable option to, quote, hitch my wagon to,
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: so to speak. After this election, why is the Democratic
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: Party still worth my time and energy? Ian. Anyone want
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: to take this one first?
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, I guess if Ian moved to the
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: UK or somewhere when there's, oh, hey, pundit, where there's
• 1:48
  Speaker 3: a bunch of parties that span the ideological spectrum, I
• 1:52
  Speaker 3: could imagine thinking about this a little differently, but in
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: the U.S., we have a two-party system, for better, for worse.
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: They haven't really figured out a viable path for an alternative.
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: And so, you know, in practice, your choices are, you know,
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: engage in the Democratic Party and make it better or don't.
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: And I choose engagement, even when I feel depressed about it.
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: There you go.
• 2:11
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, there are reforms like rank choice voting
• 2:14
  Speaker 4: that may open the door to other parties. There are
• 2:16
  Speaker 4: local races where you can fight for a candidate of
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: another party. I think our job is is to try
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: in every election to get ourselves to the best choice
• 2:27
  Speaker 4: possible and then make the choice in front of us.
• 2:30
  Speaker 4: At the national level, that's the Democratic Party. And our
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: job is to fight for a Democratic Party that can
• 2:35
  Speaker 4: do the most good. And part of what it takes
• 2:38
  Speaker 4: to do the most good is to win elections. And
• 2:40
  Speaker 4: we have to do both. And it's hard and it
• 2:43
  Speaker 4: requires nuance. It requires being receptive to all kinds of people,
• 2:47
  Speaker 4: to be open to questioning your priors and to be, um,
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: understanding of people you disagree with, but that's the job
• 2:56
  Speaker 4: we have to do now.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: I'd just say, I don't think anyone should feel that
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: they owe any political party their time and energy. I
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: do think politics is worth our time and energy because
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: whether we like it or not, politics affects us for
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: good or bad. Time's absolutely right. You can try building
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: a third party if you want. You're free to do that.
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: The structural incentives... in our political system, weigh heavily against
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: a third party succeeding.
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: Very difficult.
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: But you can try that. And I think part of
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: the work of engaging is, like, you can work to
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: change the party, support Democratic politicians who are closer to
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: your views, and most importantly, recognize that, like, political parties
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: exist to win elections, which means that they try to
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: reflect the views of a majority of voters. And if
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: you're frustrated that the Democratic Party isn't progressive enough, The
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: challenge isn't about persuading the official party so much as
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: it's about persuading a majority of voters to move closer
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: to where you are. And I think there's I mean,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: it's easy because the Democratic Party is like the official.
• 4:02
  Speaker 1: That's the party. That's the establishment. Democratic politicians represent it.
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: And look, you can always pressure politicians and parties to
• 4:09
  Speaker 1: to change. But the reason they have the position is
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: because they think, oh, this is where most people are.
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Look, the Democratic Party can't defy gravity. You know,
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: we have to hold some space. that we could be
• 4:19
  Speaker 3: wrong and that it could evolve. And I know you
• 4:21
  Speaker 3: know this, Lovick, because you've been- He's in queer media.
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: I am.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: And actually, as long as I'm at this table, so
• 4:27
  Speaker 2: are you two.
• 4:30
  Speaker 4: No, I do think also part of the challenge, and
• 4:35
  Speaker 4: we'll talk about this with other specific issues, but part
• 4:37
  Speaker 4: of the challenge is voters are not looking at a
• 4:42
  Speaker 4: Democrat as a series of positions. And actually, there are
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: ways in which I think sometimes we lose sight of
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: the fact that a politician sometimes has the space to
• 4:53
  Speaker 4: push forward and be more progressive than the electorate when
• 4:57
  Speaker 4: they have the trust of the electorate on a bunch
• 4:59
  Speaker 4: of other issues. And that really matters, right? And I
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: think right now we have lost that trust in a
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: kind of broad way and it makes it very difficult.
• 5:08
  Speaker 4: It's why we're having a bunch of kind of ultimately
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: like debates about whether it's trans issues or immigration that
• 5:14
  Speaker 4: feel like deeply unsatisfying because I think part of it
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: is that like, there's a need to kind of step
• 5:21
  Speaker 4: back and figure out, like, how do we build trust
• 5:23
  Speaker 4: with people in a broader way so that they trust
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: us when we want to talk about difficult subjects where
• 5:29
  Speaker 4: they may not agree? Right now, I don't think Democrats
• 5:31
  Speaker 4: have the space to dance through life, as it were.
• 5:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think perceptions of political parties are a
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: combination of the positions that the politicians take, what they
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: choose to talk about, and importantly, how they choose to
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: talk about it. And the how there is much more nuanced,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: and that's what is, I think, getting lost in a
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: lot of this. All right, subscriber Jessica on Discord asks,
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: I'm trans, and I'm really worried about the ability of
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: the Democratic Party to win while keeping me in mind.
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: I would vote for them if they go quiet about
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: trans issues, but do you think that they could turn
• 6:06
  Speaker 1: against us or just stay silent as we lose our rights?
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: If so, what can I practically do, or am I
• 6:12
  Speaker 1: shit out of luck?
• 6:15
  Speaker 4: So, I'm very sorry that this person feels as though
• 6:19
  Speaker 4: that's where we're at.
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: I think that sucks. I think it sucks that we
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: just went.
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  Speaker 4: Through a huge loss in which we lost voters for
• 6:27
  Speaker 4: a lot of reasons, a broad swath of the electorate,
• 6:31
  Speaker 4: different kinds of people from different walks of life and
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: different experiences. And it's been in some debates like boiled
• 6:38
  Speaker 4: down to, oh, Democrats need to moderate on the trans
• 6:42
  Speaker 4: issue in quotes. or that trans people need to go
• 6:46
  Speaker 4: under the bus because there was a super PAC that
• 6:48
  Speaker 4: had an ad that used a statement and a position
• 6:53
  Speaker 4: that Kamala Harris took in 2020 to paint her as
• 6:56
  Speaker 4: extreme and out of touch, an issue that has basically
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: nothing to do with what the experience of day-to-day life
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: for a trans person in America is now a stand-in
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: for the trans issue. And so I think, first of all,
• 7:11
  Speaker 4: just that is a stupid way to have this conversation.
• 7:13
  Speaker 4: That is a stupid, like our Democrats going to throw
• 7:16
  Speaker 4: trans people under the bus. I, I certainly hope not.
• 7:19
  Speaker 4: I don't believe that that will happen. It should not happen.
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  Speaker 4: It is both like, obviously toxic, like, like a terrible
• 7:24
  Speaker 4: thing to do, but also just politically stupid. It's like,
• 7:27
  Speaker 4: we just like the Titanic is sinking and it's like,
• 7:29
  Speaker 4: I think we should paint it. I think we should
• 7:31
  Speaker 4: probably paint it a different color. I think that if
• 7:33
  Speaker 4: it looked like maybe if it was like, it looked
• 7:34
  Speaker 4: like an iceberg, I think that's stupid. But, but beyond that, like,
• 7:40
  Speaker 4: I think the, The truth is, sometimes, especially when people
• 7:45
  Speaker 4: want to blame identity politics for an issue, they blame
• 7:48
  Speaker 4: either activists or left Democrats who they find annoying anyway
• 7:53
  Speaker 4: for what is actually a media creation by the right.
• 7:56
  Speaker 4: You look at what just happened in the past week.
• 7:58
  Speaker 4: Why are we talking about trans bathrooms? It is not
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: because Democrats decided to have a debate about trans bathrooms.
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: It's because Nancy May saw an opportunity to raise money
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  Speaker 4: by scapegoating one member of Congress at the expense of
• 8:11
  Speaker 4: trans people everywhere and their safety. And we have to respond.
• 8:15
  Speaker 4: And so the question is, how do you respond? You
• 8:17
  Speaker 4: can't just ignore it because then you look weak and
• 8:21
  Speaker 4: also you are not standing up for people that deserve
• 8:23
  Speaker 4: a champion. You look at what AOC says and you say,
• 8:25
  Speaker 4: all right, that's a path to not only respond, but
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: also respond in a way that makes an argument that
• 8:31
  Speaker 4: will hopefully resonate with a acting as if the way
• 8:39
  Speaker 4: you win people back who you've lost is by capitulating
• 8:43
  Speaker 4: like a core moral belief about tolerance and acceptance and
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: the rights of people to live as they will. So
• 8:49
  Speaker 4: I think that is instructive about the politics.
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: I just want to like level set with what we
• 8:53
  Speaker 1: actually have heard and seen so far. A big part
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: of it, as you just mentioned, obviously in the Sarah
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: McBride situation is like right wing politicians, right wing media
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: making it a thing. Sometimes it's mainstream media, like, realizing
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: that covering the fight that's going on is a, can,
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: you know, get more attention. And then I also think
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: that there's like, there's some people who just defaulted to, Oh,
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: Democrats want to throw trans people under the bus. And
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen any Democrats say that or suggest that
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: at all.
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: There's two things that we're basically talking about since the election.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: One is Seth Moulton and a few others who have
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: raised the issue of trans people competing in certain sports
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: at certain levels. And then there's the ad, right. Which
• 9:36
  Speaker 1: was again, government-funded gender-affirming surgery for immigrants who are in
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: detention for illegally crossing the border. That's the thing, right?
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: And so people have either debated that ad or criticized
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: Seth or said, yeah, maybe he has a point. And
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: that's it. And I am not aware of any other
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Democrat who has said we should compromise on any other
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: like like gender affirming care, basic rights, protections or anything
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: like that. Maybe I'm wrong.
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: I think there's like I think that's that's true about
• 10:05
  Speaker 4: elected Democrats. I think there is like a kind of
• 10:07
  Speaker 4: I don't know, a pundit debate about how our Democrats
• 10:11
  Speaker 4: lost the mainstream on this issue. There's op eds, there's debate,
• 10:14
  Speaker 4: there's noise on social media, which obviously, yeah, we get
• 10:17
  Speaker 4: Democrats get blamed for all the time, but I think
• 10:18
  Speaker 4: I'm sure that that is what this.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Person is also seeing. Right. I'm just saying I haven't
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: seen a policy proposal from a Democrat or even a
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: Democratic pundit that's like, we should ban gender-affirming care, or
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: we should ban it for children, or protections or rights
• 10:29
  Speaker 1: or anything like that.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: No. And actually, I talked to Liz Smith about this
• 10:32
  Speaker 3: last week on the show. There's a bunch of Democrats
• 10:34
  Speaker 3: recently that actually successfully ran against Republican overreach on a
• 10:38
  Speaker 3: lot of these issues. And I think you can make
• 10:41
  Speaker 3: compelling argument that's libertarian in a lot of ways about
• 10:44
  Speaker 3: staying the fuck out of people's medical decisions and out
• 10:46
  Speaker 3: of their lives and, and, and never, uh, allowing for
• 10:50
  Speaker 3: discrimination in the workplace or in housing or in anywhere else.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: I think what people are talking, which Seth Moulton, I
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: think is trying to get at is there needs to
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: be a more honest and open conversation about fairness in sports.
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: And the solution to that question is not going to
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: be one size fits all. It's not going to be
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: the same policies for college kids that you have for 11-year-olds.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: And those are probably going to be sorted out in
• 11:13
  Speaker 3: local communities and by local school districts, et cetera. But
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: that we should also be very clear when we're debating
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: about this that what it would take to enforce some
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: sort of draconian widespread ban, blanket ban on transgender athletes
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: is– what, like spot genital inspections of 10-year-old kids? Is
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: that what Republicans are fighting for? So that's the way
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: you make the case against some of these policy ideas.
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: Well, and again, I think I mentioned this on one
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: of these pods, but there's a great Vox piece after
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: the election raising the question, like, well, Biden had a
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: policy that was like a compromise on sports. And basically
• 11:55
  Speaker 1: all these red states were trying to ban, do an
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: outright ban, like Tommy just mentioned, on sports. transgender athletes
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: competing in sports. And the Biden administration policy was no
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: blanket bans are allowed, prohibited. You can't do that. But
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: individual schools can make exceptions for fairness and safety. And
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: that has to depend on, a lot of that depends
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: on the age of the person, right? And so like
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: in most kids 10 or under, like that wouldn't apply, right?
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: Because there's not an issue. Or certain sports wouldn't apply, right?
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Because it doesn't, it's not a safety issue there, right?
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: Or it's not even a competition issue. And so that
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: was the Biden proposal. And then, you know, folks on
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: the left got mad about it and folks on the
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: right obviously got mad about it because they just want bans. And,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: you know, no one talked about it.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: They wanted the issue. The Republicans wanted the issue.
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: This does get back to the trust issue, too, because
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: it's like, you know, we have had trans visibility and
• 12:55
  Speaker 4: acceptance in some quarters for a very short period of time.
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 12:58
  Speaker 4: And we're in the middle of a backlash. And if
• 13:04
  Speaker 4: what you had were Democrats out there saying, everything about
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: my view on this issue is about making sure that
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: trans kids feel as though they can live as themselves
• 13:17
  Speaker 4: and that kids who are trans can play sports when
• 13:20
  Speaker 4: they're growing up and that trans teens can access the
• 13:24
  Speaker 4: care that their parents and doctors approve and trans adults
• 13:27
  Speaker 4: are treated fairly and that trans people feel safe to
• 13:29
  Speaker 4: go to the public restrooms and that trans people get
• 13:32
  Speaker 4: to live full and rich lives. And by the way,
• 13:34
  Speaker 4: not just tolerated, but celebrated for the diversity they bring
• 13:40
  Speaker 4: to our world and the good that it does. And
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: in order to get there, we are willing to entertain
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: that there are some difficult questions around competition at higher
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: levels of sports that we should reasonably sort of talk
• 13:54
  Speaker 4: about in recognition of the fact that that is a
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: distraction from making sure trans people feel safe and supported
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: and that there's growing acceptance instead of the backsliding that
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: we've seen. Like if that was where we were at,
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: I would say, okay, great. But I think that's why
• 14:07
  Speaker 4: it's like when, and I talked about this with Moulton,
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: like when someone like Seth Moulton just sort of says, well, like,
• 14:12
  Speaker 4: I don't want a trans kid running over my daughter
• 14:16
  Speaker 4: playing sports, right? It's hostile and you're targeting a tiny
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: subset of the population and basically like kind of I
• 14:26
  Speaker 4: don't know, like making this debate something like that sort
• 14:29
  Speaker 4: of like in response to this election, which was brought
• 14:32
  Speaker 4: about by so many different factors after an election in
• 14:35
  Speaker 4: which Donald Trump lost the last time and gave no
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: quarter on fucking anything.
• 14:39
  Speaker 1: Did you, I don't know if you talked to him
• 14:41
  Speaker 1: about this because I haven't heard the interview yet, but
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: did you see he did an interview with Rolling Stone
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: where he said, he's like, the New York Times called
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: me up and didn't say like what happened in the election,
• 14:51
  Speaker 1: what went wrong, what did Democrats need to do? He's like,
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: they specifically asked me about the issue with trans rights
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and asked what I thought about sports. Well, he's like,
• 14:59
  Speaker 1: and it became this thing. He's like, he's like, I've,
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: you know, I've like sponsored and voted for all this, like,
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: you know, pro trans rights legislation. And I still think the,
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: what he said, even though it was in response to
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: a question, was like just the fucking worst way to
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: say it.
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you'll hear it before this came out.
• 15:16
  Speaker 4: And what I said to him, I was like, he's like,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: we have to have the debate. And I just said, like,
• 15:19
  Speaker 4: you said it in a dickish way.
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: You did?
• 15:21
  Speaker 4: And then he's like, well, now that's the problem, right?
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: People are policing how we say things. I was like, well,
• 15:25
  Speaker 4: you're not an undecided voter. You're a member of Congress.
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: People are holding you to a higher standard. Anyway, you
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: can listen to the conversation. But like, I hear that.
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: And I'm just, that I think is why I think
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: sometimes people are like, wait a second, we just lost
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: the country. And we're talking about trans sports, like that's
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: where you went from here. It just feels like a
• 15:42
  Speaker 4: side issue.
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: Subscriber Sam asks, do you believe Biden's legacy will be
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: similar to that of LBJ's, a.k.a. he had a lot
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: of good domestic policy, but the one thing people will
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: remember him by is his foreign policy, in parentheses, Gaza failure?
• 16:07
  Speaker 3: Tough question.
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: Was that from you?
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: No, it was from Ben R. I mean, look, you
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: guys know this. I believe that Gaza is and will
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: continue to be a massive stain on Joe Biden's record.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 16:23
  Speaker 3: The LBJ comparison is not totally fair here because Joe
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: Biden ended the war in Afghanistan, which no other president
• 16:30
  Speaker 3: had the courage to do, which was the right thing
• 16:32
  Speaker 3: to do. Unequivocally, in my view, obviously, it hurt him
• 16:36
  Speaker 3: politically because of the way the withdrawal was handled. And well,
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: and also there's also, I think, a fair argument that
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: ending a 20 year war is always going to end
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: really ugly and messy no matter what. And Joe Biden
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: was just the one who did it. The harder question
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: for Biden about his legacy, though, is not just Gaza.
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: It's what happens to parts of it that Trump doesn't like.
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: Is he going to repeal the IRA? Is he going
• 17:01
  Speaker 3: to repeal the CHIPS Act? I doubt he repeals the
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: highway bill, but we'll see. Trump will almost certainly pull
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: us out of the Paris Climate Accords. That could go
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: in concert with rolling back parts of the IRA. He'll
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: almost certainly cut off additional funding to the Ukrainians. That
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: doesn't mean he can force them to take a deal
• 17:18
  Speaker 3: with Putin, but it seems like that's the path things
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: are headed.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: So I don't know. But I think that Gaza, it was.
• 17:27
  Speaker 3: An inexplicable policy decision six months ago. let alone the
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: just unequivocal support for Netanyahu now. I'll never understand it
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: until the day I die.
• 17:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, look, I think Joe Biden's more broadly, it's like,
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: I think we don't know. And we don't know in
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: part because we don't know how bad this next Trump
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: term will be. But the fact that Joe Biden's term
• 17:54
  Speaker 4: in which he wanted to restore the soul of the
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: country and protect democracy is sandwiched by Donald Trump and
• 18:03
  Speaker 4: that will be in part because Joe Biden did not
• 18:05
  Speaker 4: step down and waited so long to step aside, is
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: right now the central story of his presidency. And that's
• 18:15
  Speaker 4: a shame because he did a lot of really great things.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Well, and that's the other difference between him and LBJ
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: because LBJ decided not to run and step down much earlier.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Still wasn't enough for Humphrey.
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: An argument that was used to keep Joe Biden in
• 18:30
  Speaker 4: the race for a year.
• 18:31
  Speaker 2: About a year and a half.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: But yeah, that's a tough part.
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: And just to clarify one thing, I mean, like early on,
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: the days after October 7th, of course, like support for
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: Israel was the right thing. Like, I'm not saying that
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: every step along the way he's been wrong, but I mean,
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: the just utter inability to put any pressure on Netanyahu
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: to save lives is what I'm getting at. Because there's
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: people who listen to the show and, you know, send
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: me texts about how critical I am of Netanyahu and
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: the war. And there's a lot of nuance to this,
• 18:59
  Speaker 3: but I don't think nuance is really required when you
• 19:02
  Speaker 3: look at sort of the last few months and how
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: clearly devastating this has become for the people in Gaza.
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: I also found myself, especially when we were debating Joe
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: Biden's age, when Joe Biden was the candidate, that one
• 19:16
  Speaker 4: thing that I found myself saying was, well, you can't
• 19:19
  Speaker 4: point to me a place where Joe Biden's age prevented
• 19:21
  Speaker 4: him from succeeding domestically, right? Like, like, He did what
• 19:24
  Speaker 4: we asked him to do. He passed more than anyone
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: expected him to pass. He played his hand domestically as
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: well as any president could have. And that was one
• 19:31
  Speaker 4: of the reasons it was actually so hard to challenge
• 19:33
  Speaker 4: him if he refused to step aside. But over the
• 19:35
  Speaker 4: last year, the fact that he is such a terrible
• 19:37
  Speaker 4: communicator when so much of what this has been about
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: is communication has been like a really difficult part about it.
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: I don't think it's a communications issue. I think it's
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: a policy problem.
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: Well, I think it's both.
• 19:48
  Speaker 4: Obviously, it's a policy problem, but it's all like, I
• 19:52
  Speaker 4: think one of the reasons. Well, Gaza is a policy problem.
• 19:55
  Speaker 1: He's just saying writ large.
• 19:56
  Speaker 4: Writ large, he's been such an ineffective communicator. And I
• 19:59
  Speaker 4: think Kamala paid dearly for the fact that we just
• 20:01
  Speaker 4: didn't have somebody making an argument for the last year.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And that was like a terrible, a terrible cost. And
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: that's his fault.
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: All right, so I'll put you guys down for a
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: top five, top 5%. Bidco on Twitter asks, do you
• 20:14
  Speaker 1: worry that we won't see the same energy behind the
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: anti-Trump coalition as we did in 2017 going into 2025?
• 20:20
  Speaker 1: Why don't you answer a couple of these? I mean,
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: I think a lot of it depends on what Trump
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: does and it depends on what form the energy takes.
• 20:30
  Speaker 1: Like if Trump does what he promised to do during
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: the campaign and the anti-Trump coalition reacts by like tuning
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: out of politics altogether or just fighting with each other
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: the whole time, yeah, then I would worry. I also
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: think the response to Trump may be different this time
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: because we have learned what works and what doesn't. You know,
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: like we have won a midterm when he's been president.
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: We have beaten him in a presidential election. And I'd
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: love to see, you know, another huge women's march in January.
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: But if it's smaller than before. like that doesn't really
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: worry me. If Trump tries to take away our healthcare
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: again or enact a national abortion ban or order the
• 21:06
  Speaker 1: military to shoot protesters and we don't organize and then
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: like make noise and flood the streets in response to that, yeah,
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: then I would worry. So some of it's just like
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: lessons learned from having gone through this before. And I
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: could see some of those lessons just taking us in
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: a different direction. I would only worry if people just
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: tune out altogether. Yeah.
• 21:25
  Speaker 4: I mean, I think we're sort of relying on the
• 21:27
  Speaker 4: fact that like the hyper-engaged people voters that we thought
• 21:32
  Speaker 4: would deliver the presidency are, the reason we had faith
• 21:34
  Speaker 4: in them was because they showed up.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: In 2018 and 2022. We're kind of counting on that.
• 21:39
  Speaker 2: I do think in.
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: Terms of 2028, I think one lesson of this race
• 21:45
  Speaker 4: is counting on anti-Trump or anti-Republican fervor, it just will
• 21:48
  Speaker 4: not be enough. And we need to have- And we're
• 21:51
  Speaker 4: not running against him again. And we're not running against him,
• 21:54
  Speaker 4: of course, but also we need to be excited about
• 21:59
  Speaker 4: the vision of whoever we put forward and it, we
• 22:02
  Speaker 4: just can't just, it, it has to, we need to,
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: we need.
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: To, we need to look inward.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Tommy, I have a question for you from a zippy
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: by day. Okay. Zippy by day. Also subscriber asks, I'm
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: beyond sick after 2024. The only thing worse is Dem
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: still hitting me up for money. I feel like there's
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: a culture issue with the DNC, maybe politics in general,
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: but how do we become the party that doesn't come
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: off as fake?
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: So is it the money parts of the problem or
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: the fakeness of the problem? I was going to say,
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: cause both could be problems. I think both, you know,
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: The money stuff. I don't know who we take this
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: up with. You've been pitching Democrat Plus for a while
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: where you just pay a flat fee and you don't
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: get any more fundraising ads. I think that's worthy. But yeah,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: the fundraising has gotten offensive and infuriating. And it's not
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: just like a people like us thing. It's like you
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: hear this from everyone.
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: Everyone.
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: You donate to one campaign and suddenly you're Your contact
• 22:49
  Speaker 3: information is sold on a list to every other interest group.
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: And it really does feel bad in a deeper way.
• 22:55
  Speaker 3: That's a huge problem.
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: Can we make it an issue in the DNC chair race?
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: That's a good idea.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: That's a good idea. We should do that.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it like speaks to something. It's like
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: it like it speaks to kind of the Democratic Party's
• 23:07
  Speaker 4: problem writ large, too, which is like like really good
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: at doing something, doing the best version of something that sucks.
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: Like that we're really good at that. Like, let's figure out.
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: The best version of this thing that's not working and
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: do it a hundred percent. And that's what we're doing
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: with the fundraising. And I do think it speaks to
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: like the fakeness. Like, it's like, like how, like you're
• 23:26
  Speaker 4: somebody that really cares about politics and you get a
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: thousand texts. It's like, it's Hakeem Jeffries. And if you
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: don't do this, I will, I swear to God, the
• 23:34
  Speaker 4: things I'll do.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The post-election ones are just fucking, that's just like
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: a real kick in the ass.
• 23:42
  Speaker 2: I don't even know who these people are. Let's start
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: naming names.
• 23:45
  Speaker 3: Let's not.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: All right. Another good one from subscriber Jessica. I feel
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: like we talk about supporting left media, but the thing
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: is that the biggest right-wing podcasts slash media are all, quote,
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: not political. When you look at Dave Portnoy, I knew
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: him as the guy who does pizza reviews, and I
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: knew Andrew Schultz as a decently funny comedian. How do
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: we go about getting left-aligned, non-political media?
• 24:08
  Speaker 3: I mean, there's a couple pieces of this. The first
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: is something we've talked about a lot, which is that
• 24:12
  Speaker 3: just the... Democrats should not be attacked for going on shows.
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: So if you go on a Barstool show, if you
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: go on Joe Rogan, you are not responsible for your
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: interviewers' views. Obviously, there's limits to this. We're not recommending
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: that 2028 primary candidates go on the Daily Stormer or like,
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: you know.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Or even the Daily Wire. I mean, do the Daily Wire.
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: That's actually fine. But I also think that there's another
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: part of this that's a deeper problem, which was Joe
• 24:36
  Speaker 3: Rogan and Dave Portnoy, the head of Barstool Sports, felt
• 24:40
  Speaker 3: excited enough or proud enough of supporting Trump to talk
• 24:43
  Speaker 3: about it publicly. And there were a lot of progressive
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: Democrats in places of influence in media in particular, who
• 24:50
  Speaker 3: did not feel that way. Part of that was Gaza.
• 24:53
  Speaker 3: I think part of it was Biden, but there was
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: a cultural shift where there are some hosts. I'm not
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: going to name names because I don't want to be
• 24:59
  Speaker 3: a dick to anybody, but there's like some big named,
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: very popular culture or sort of a politics adjacent shows
• 25:07
  Speaker 3: that would not take interviews with Kamala Harris. We know
• 25:10
  Speaker 3: this from talking to her team. Um, and part of
• 25:13
  Speaker 3: it was they felt like they might be penalized by
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: their audiences. They, or they just felt like it wasn't
• 25:19
  Speaker 3: fun or exciting and they just didn't want to be
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: a part of it. And that sucks.
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: I also think it's even though the way the questions
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: phrased left aligned, non-political media, that's a, it's, that's a
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: tough one. Yeah. Right. Like I think I think you're right. Like,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: like Tommy, like you want to look for funny people
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: who aren't huge Trump fans basically, but you have to
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: be open to them. When I say you, the left
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: has to be open to them, like not agreeing with
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: us on everything, having some heterodox views on politics, making
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: some jokes that we don't like, or even find offensive.
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: Like this is the, I mean, everyone's like, why Joe Rogan?
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: Where's our Joe Rogan? It's like, well, We had Joe Rogan.
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: He was our Joe Rogan. And then everyone said, fuck you, no.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: And they made a big fuss out of Bernie Sanders
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: going on his show.
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: Also, everyone loved that Stavros clip last week. I wonder
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: how many of those people know that his old show
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: was called Comptown. For a year. Probably weren't having Hillary
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: Clinton on that in 2016. You know what I mean?
• 26:17
  Speaker 4: I was getting messages for years, go on Comptown. Super
• 26:21
  Speaker 4: funny show. They're really funny. But yeah, it's the, there's
• 26:24
  Speaker 4: something about like Democrats being like, how do we appeal
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: to men? How do we reach the men? And none
• 26:29
  Speaker 4: of the people that do ever asked that question. And
• 26:33
  Speaker 4: so it's like, no, you're not going to artificially create
• 26:36
  Speaker 4: a bunch of apolitical gigantic hits that are then receptive
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: to having democratic candidates on. You have to build a
• 26:44
  Speaker 4: political movement. and a culture on the left in which
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: you're welcome in those spaces because you're not seen as
• 26:51
  Speaker 4: being an imperious and scolding sour jerk.
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: Well, just the way you made that comment to Moulton,
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: where you say, well, you said that in a dickish way. Like,
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: if Democrats could respond to people who say shit like
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: that by being like, hey, that was dickish, or like,
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: you thought that was funny? I didn't think that was funny.
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: That was stupid, right? As opposed to being like, you...
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: are bad and we never want to see you again. Yeah.
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: Or like, I'm going to like, it's, I mean, how
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: many times over the last couple of years has there
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: been like entire news cycles devoted to criticism of a
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: comedian for saying something stupid?
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: And the other question is, you know, someone like a
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: Kaisen at the biggest streamer on Twitch or one of
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: them who in the democratic party is interesting enough that
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: he would want to talk to them. I'm not totally sure.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Right.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: Interesting enough. Or, like willing to risk just getting a
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: question that's like tough.
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: Go on, goof around. I mean, you, you had, you know, listen,
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: we're not like praising Trump here, but he, he was
• 27:50
  Speaker 3: asking Theo Vaughn questions about what it was like to
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: do cocaine. That was, that was good content.
• 27:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 27:56
  Speaker 4: It's also something about, again, it goes to me to
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: like this like deeper issue of like what Democrats stand
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: for and in ways that people believe it. Cause like
• 28:03
  Speaker 4: the reason I think Bernie, Bernie Sanders can go on,
• 28:05
  Speaker 4: go to these places and succeed in these places is
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: cause you know, he has a core motivating reason he's
• 28:10
  Speaker 4: in politics that drives everything he does. So when he's
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: asked a question, he can bring it back to that.
• 28:15
  Speaker 4: People expect that. He also has the freedom to think
• 28:17
  Speaker 4: out loud, get some things wrong, make mistakes, talk about
• 28:20
  Speaker 4: things because people know where his heart is. And like,
• 28:23
  Speaker 4: people don't know where we are. Like, I don't know.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: I don't like if I.
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: Tell like, what, what is like the, what is the
• 28:29
  Speaker 4: central cause of like the, the consensus democratic party right now?
• 28:32
  Speaker 1: I don't know.
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: I don't know. That's a huge problem.
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, it's also always evolving and it's based on
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: what everyone will, you know, will abide. Yeah. Subscriber Jay Walker,
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: what is the best way for us to influence who
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: gets named the next DNC chair? Who to call slash email?
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: There's about 450 DNC members.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: So you write your note, you put it around a brick.
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: You know, I read this one, my gut reaction was like,
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: maybe there is none, but then I don't know. I mean,
• 29:10
  Speaker 3: it's about 450 voting DNC members. Your win number is
• 29:13
  Speaker 3: 225 people. It's not a policymaking job. It's fundraising and
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: grassroots and And so you could imagine a scenario where
• 29:22
  Speaker 3: there's some kind of groundswell of like online support or
• 29:25
  Speaker 3: grassroots support. People start organizing in states on behalf of
• 29:28
  Speaker 3: a candidate. And all of a sudden people are like,
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: let's say, think that there's a huge Martin O'Malley fan
• 29:34
  Speaker 3: base out there and they think that he might be
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: able to raise small dollar money from a new crop
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: of people like that could influence. opinions.
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, I mean, the 450 members are like almost
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: by definition, political insiders, and they're probably on social media
• 29:48
  Speaker 1: and very engaged in politics. So this is actually one
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: place where, you know, people, average people can make some,
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: some noise and probably the people who are going to
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: vote on this will hear you. I was looking online
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: for like a list of all the Democratic National Committee members.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: They published a list from like 2020 when they did
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: the elections. But I assume that as we get into
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: the actual contest at some point, they'll publicize the list
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: of members for 2024. But, you know, it's every state
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: party chair. It's every, you know, elected gets a vote.
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: Like there's just a lot of people that we know
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: are DNC members. But then there's some at-large ones. Subscriber Catherine.
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: What's the best way to get people interested in running
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: for local office? Something like VSA, but for hyper-local districts
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: to start ensuring they don't fall to the radical right.
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: What's the best way to get people invested and interested?
• 30:37
  Speaker 3: Easiest one all day. Run for something.
• 30:38
  Speaker 1: I know.
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: Great organization.
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they do local races. They do younger candidates.
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: What's their website? Runforsomething.org, I assume? Runforsomething.net.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: Runforsomething.net? A rare.
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: Net. It's not a criticism of that question specifically. We
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: get a lot of questions that are about like, how
• 30:53
  Speaker 4: do I make other people feel something? And I think
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: sometimes it's like, I think the only question you have
• 30:58
  Speaker 4: to answer is, are you going to run for something?
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: Right? Dear caller. Like, do you want to run for
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: school board? But seriously, it's like, how do I get
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: other people to do something? Why don't you, what do you,
• 31:08
  Speaker 2: why don't you do it?
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: You're going to really yell at the questioner.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Sometimes.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: I don't know. No disrespect. No disrespect. Just a thought.
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: Just a thought.
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: Why not you? Why not now?
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: All right. Some lighter questions. This is from subscriber Defiant Emily.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Can I keep wearing skinny jeans in 2025?
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Was this from my wife? When do we stop being allowed?
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: Can someone give me some backstory?
• 31:31
  Speaker 4: So skinny jeans had their moment. Now the pants have
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: gotten gigantic, at least for Gen Z.
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: I noticed that in my own household. They're gigantic and
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: things are happening.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: I can't say I love it.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Trends are trends.
• 31:44
  Speaker 4: I do think that like, I sometimes don't understand what
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: we mean by skinny jeans because sometimes I think it means, oh,
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: do you mean like super skin tight, spandexy, see the
• 31:54
  Speaker 4: whole leg jeans? which I've never personally been a fan of,
• 31:57
  Speaker 4: but I wear skinnier jeans. And sometimes I feel like,
• 32:00
  Speaker 4: is the mockery about me? Is everyone talking about me?
• 32:03
  Speaker 4: Are my jeans part of the problem and I can't
• 32:05
  Speaker 4: see it? I have jeans blindness. Because you know, because
• 32:07
  Speaker 4: you get to a point in your life where your
• 32:10
  Speaker 4: style freezes. And you then, like, for example, we all
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: wear no-show socks, right? That you're a first wave millennials.
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: And I will continue to.
• 32:18
  Speaker 4: Well, I start, I was like, you know what? I'm
• 32:21
  Speaker 4: going to try to wear some crew socks. I'm going
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: to evolve on the sock front.
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: Not currently.
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: Okay. Just gave you a quick look.
• 32:27
  Speaker 2: Eyes up here, buddy. But I was like, you know what?
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: I'm going to try it.
• 32:32
  Speaker 4: And I felt super uncomfortable because it wasn't my style.
• 32:35
  Speaker 4: I felt like I was trying to seem like something
• 32:36
  Speaker 4: I'm not. But then I started, I kept at it
• 32:38
  Speaker 4: and I was like, you know what? I kind of
• 32:39
  Speaker 4: like these crew socks now, but I'm not giving up
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: on the skinnier jeans.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: I'm not. I think wear whatever socks you want, but
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: I did see an article once about how cringe no-show
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: socks were, and I wanted to find that person and
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: tell them how lame they were. Because if you care
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: about someone else's socks, you are the problem. But the
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: jeans thing, yeah, I know what you're saying. There was
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: like a jeggings phase.
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 33:00
  Speaker 3: But now I feel like everyone's a carpenter.
• 33:03
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of very wide leg, a lot
• 33:05
  Speaker 4: of loops for hammers from people who have never done
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: a job that didn't involve email.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: Are you painting today?
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: A lot of foremen running around. Yeah, a lot of...
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: Poor people.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: A lot of jeans my mom could have worn when
• 33:17
  Speaker 3: dropping me off at soccer practice in 1996 around Los Angeles.
• 33:20
  Speaker 3: That's been a thing.
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know what? Wear whatever jeans you like.
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: You do you, Defiant Emily.
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Defiant Emily.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Selka on Twitter asks, in a nod to the popularity
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: and influence of the Bro podcast in the 2024 election.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: What are the guys' fitness routines?
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: I'm in a tweener phase. I used to be going
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: to this one gym. Not really going there anymore. I
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: had to figure out a new thing. I'm bored. I
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: had like a couple of lingering injuries that have been annoying.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: You guys got any advice?
• 33:50
  Speaker 2: I do have some advice.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: Tell me.
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: Pilates.
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Hannah's really into Pilates.
• 33:54
  Speaker 1: Pilates.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: Pilates all day. I'm becoming a Pilates person. I'm doing
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: it all the time. It's awesome. I'm on The Reformer.
• 34:01
  Speaker 4: You know it's a tough class because it's you and
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: 10 of the most like kind of strong, sharp, pointy
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: women you'll ever see in your whole life. Just points
• 34:14
  Speaker 4: you didn't know people could have.
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: New points.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: Just so pointy. Where are the points? Elbows. Just abs points.
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: Abs to a point. I mean, they're just so strong.
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: They're so strong.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: And you think, well, I've been going to these, you know,
• 34:27
  Speaker 4: bro-y fitness classes and doing my squats with my big
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: heavy weights, haven't been doing the stabilizing muscles, haven't been
• 34:33
  Speaker 4: doing the isometrics. Those are the muscles that are going
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: to keep you alive, keep you from falling out of tubs.
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: Would we say those are bro-y?
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: I think.
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: Barry's Bootcamp?
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: West Hollywood Barry's. I mean, I mean, I don't know.
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of bro. I'm just going to throw it
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: out there.
• 34:46
  Speaker 2: A lot of towel snapping in the locker room.
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I was telling these guys when we started recording,
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: I had to wear a tux this weekend that I
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: hadn't worn in years and I was holding space in the...
• 34:57
  Speaker 3: In the middle.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: In the middle. I, yeah, so I did berries for
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: a couple of years and then I was like, I
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: got so tired of that. And now I just, I've
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: stopped running basically because I'm getting old and it's like
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: too much on my knees. I need to find a
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: new like cardio thing. I guess I could just take
• 35:13
  Speaker 1: a walk. Well, but I feel like.
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: George W. Bush switched to bikes.
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Bikes is interesting. I could do bikes. Um, but I
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: trust you on a bike. No, I don't either. No.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: Well, I'm checking his phone right into the canyon.
• 35:25
  Speaker 1: I got to, I got to teach two boys to
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: ride a bike soon. That's going to be.
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: Well, that part.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Me.
• 35:31
  Speaker 3: You need some training. You got training wheels too.
• 35:33
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 35:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: Maybe training wheels for all of us. Um, but now
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: I just, I work out like four or five days
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: a week. Okay. Lifting kind of stuff, light lifting, but
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: also half of it now is like fixing my shoulder
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: from when it broke. Four years ago. And I'm still
• 35:49
  Speaker 1: trying to do physical therapy on that while also lifting.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: I'm still doing Barry's a lot and I'm doing Pilates
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: a lot. And that combination is great.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: And I love it. I'm so into the reformer.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: Let's go, people. Let's go. Leah Cahan on Instagram asks,
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: favorite holiday movie? National Lampoon's Christmas Vacation for me.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: Great one. I think probably number one. What else did
• 36:10
  Speaker 3: we put up there?
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: Die Hard.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: It's always up there. There's the Die Hard discourse.
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: Oof.
• 36:16
  Speaker 3: Um, one that doesn't get a lot of shine, but
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: I feel like is quite clearly what a holiday movie
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: is the nightmare before Christmas to people like that. Yes.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: That's a great choice. That's a great choice. And I
• 36:25
  Speaker 4: do think that's a holiday classic.
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: I haven't seen that in a long time.
• 36:28
  Speaker 2: That's a great choice.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: Christmas story. Can I tell.
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: You, it's the one that's always on and I'll always
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: watch it. And I'm always like, meh.
• 36:36
  Speaker 1: I know it's, it's more of the, um, it's the nostalgia.
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: About like remembering stuff from my youth. Because when you,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: when you're old enough to really watch it again, you're
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: just like, what is this story? It's not really cohesive. No.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: It's a series of vignettes, which is why it's okay
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: for it to always be.
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: Oh, yeah. Yeah, it is a series of vignettes.
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of leg lamp stuff.
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a lot of leg lamp stuff. But I love Vacation.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: I think that's right.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: Christmas Vacation. It is awesome.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: So good.
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: So funny.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Polar Express.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: That's kind of mid.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: What else is on the list?
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: I'm Googling here.
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: Let's see.
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Elf is great.
• 37:08
  Speaker 2: Spirited.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: I don't know if anyone saw that. It's kind of
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: a new one. What's the name?
• 37:13
  Speaker 1: Top.
• 37:14
  Speaker 2: Is there any good Hanukkah movies?
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: No.
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: What about Home Alone? Oh, yeah.
• 37:17
  Speaker 2: Home Alone is great. Yes, of course it's a Christmas movie.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: Although, as I've often said, that is a movie about
• 37:24
  Speaker 4: a child defending his home from his parents having to
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: pay their insurance deductible.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: And I don't think that gets enough discussion.
• 37:30
  Speaker 4: Because those parents look like they have a great umbrella policy.
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: All right. Last question from Maha on our Discord. What
• 37:38
  Speaker 1: do you have to look forward to in 2025? Movie premieres? Albums? Games?
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: So, and or season two? Cannot wait. Cannot wait for
• 37:49
  Speaker 4: Andor Season 2. Severance Season 2.
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: Me too.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: Severance Season 2. Holy shit. I cannot believe we get
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: more Severance.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: Oh, it was a great cliffhanger ending too. It's incredible.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: It's incredible. Also, guys, White Lotus Season 3.
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: White Lotus Season 3?
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: Yep. And Last of Us Season 2.
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: Oh, wow. That's a great year of television.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Good year.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: You know, they always say it's over. It's never over.
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: They're also throwing in a new Game of Thrones prequel.
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: I know. It's going to be out there. Something about
• 38:18
  Speaker 1: Night of the Seven Kingdoms or something.
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: I'll watch it for sure.
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: For sure.
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: I'm very excited to watch Say Nothing, Patrick Radden Keefe's
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: book that's been adapted. I think it's on Hulu right now.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: I'm very excited to see Gladiator 2. You think you
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: guys have seen it, right?
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: I haven't seen it.
• 38:33
  Speaker 3: I haven't seen it. I cannot wait to see that.
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: You should hold space for Gladiator 2.
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: I'm going to see Gladiator 2. The only question is
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: do I see Gladiator 2 before I see Wicked a
• 38:38
  Speaker 4: second time? But I'll probably see Gladiator 2 first.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: I'm going to go see Wicked.
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: The funny thing about anticipating albums is that's just not
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: how it works anymore.
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: All of a sudden it's just a Friday.
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I have no idea. Poor Drake is doing a
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: Twitch stream with some Canadian nerd and all of a
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: sudden Kendrick just bodies him for like the 13th time.
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: That's what happened this past week.
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: I imagine we'll get Reputation Taylor's version at some point
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: in 2025.
• 38:59
  Speaker 3: There's the Villiers album. Does she have to steal that
• 39:01
  Speaker 3: one back from him? Which one?
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Keep going.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Dude. Does she have to do that one back from
• 39:07
  Speaker 3: Scooter Braun? Wasn't that the whole point of what you're doing?
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: That's the last one.
• 39:10
  Speaker 1: The last one, yeah.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: I'm reading it.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: It just came out, but Neil Stevenson has a new
• 39:15
  Speaker 4: book called Polostan, which I'm very excited to read.
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: Polostan.
• 39:18
  Speaker 4: Neil Stevenson is a great science fiction writer. He wrote
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: this book, Termination Shock, which was, there were two books
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: about climate change at around the same time, Ministry of
• 39:27
  Speaker 4: the Future and uh termination shock termination shock was the
• 39:31
  Speaker 4: the action version and the other one was boring so
• 39:36
  Speaker 4: so i really like neil stevenson i'm.
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: Excited about that um do you know the guy who
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: did parasite has kind of like a follow-up movie coming out.
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: It's called diarrhea once they're left to happen well it's.
• 39:46
  Speaker 3: It's um it's it's a It's his next film.
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: Speaking of Korean cinema, we get season two of Squid Game.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: I believe. Check the facts, but I think that's right.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: I think that's right.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: Can someone fact check Mr. Lovett, please?
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: Can we check the facts?
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Can we get Daniel Dale in here?
• 40:10
  Speaker 3: This year. Wow.
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: Even sooner. Even better. That's so exciting.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: I think that's it for 2025. I don't think I'm
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: looking forward to anything else.
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: That's what I got. That's what I'm looking forward to.
• 40:23
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to think. That's about right.
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: I'm also going to read Taffy Brodesser-Ackman's new book.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Oh, that looks good.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: I'm going to read that because it's called like the
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: Long Island Challenge.
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: Long Island Problem. The Long Island Issue. Long Island Compromise.
• 40:38
  Speaker 3: Apparently Wicked Part 2 comes out in November 2025. I
• 40:41
  Speaker 3: feel like all of a sudden we're doing a New
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: Year's episode when really this is like a Thanksgiving meal.
• 40:45
  Speaker 1: I thought about that too.
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: I wonder what they're going to do with that Wicked part, too,
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: because the famous challenge of Wicked is that the first
• 40:52
  Speaker 4: act is incredible, and the second act, you're.
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: Like, what are we doing here?
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: Oh, really? What are we doing here?
• 40:57
  Speaker 4: But I think that we'll get a new Ariana song.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: That's my prediction.
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Hold space for that.
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: And I will.
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: Hold space for everything. Happy Thanksgiving. That's our episode, and
• 41:06
  Speaker 1: we'll talk to you guys next week. If you want
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: to listen to Pod Save America ad-free or get access
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: to our subscriber Discord and exclusive podcasts, consider joining our
• 41:15
  Speaker 1: Friends of the Pod community at crooked.com slash friends or
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: subscribe on Apple Podcasts directly from the Pod Save America feed. Also,
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: be sure to follow Pod Save America on TikTok, Instagram, Twitter,
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: and YouTube for full episodes, bonus content, and more. And
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: before you hit that next button, you can help boost
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: this episode by leaving us a review and by sharing
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: it with friends and family. Pod Save America is a
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: Crooked Media production. Our producers are David Toledo and Saul Rubin.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Our associate producer is Farrah Safari. Reid Cherlin is our
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: executive editor and Adrian Hill is our executive producer. The
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: show is mixed and edited by Andrew Chadwick. Jordan Cantor
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: is our sound engineer with audio support from Kyle Seglin
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: and Charlotte Landis. Writing support by Hallie Kiefer. Madeline Herringer
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: is our head of news and programming. Matt DeGroat is
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: our head of production. Andy Taft is our executive assistant.
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: Thanks to our digital team, Elijah Cohn, Haley Jones, Phoebe Bradford,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Joseph Dutra, Ben Hefcote, Mia Kelman, Molly Lobel, Kirill Pelleviv,
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: and David Toles.
• 42:21
  Speaker 2: The funny thing about the holding space thing is that
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: it's actually.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I watched the video like half a dozen more times
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: this weekend.
• 42:28
  Speaker 4: Well, I think what makes it so funny is like
• 42:30
  Speaker 4: the reporter... says people are really holding space for the
• 42:34
  Speaker 4: lyrics to Defying Garrity, which in and of itself is
• 42:36
  Speaker 4: obviously slightly annoying and silly, but not that big a deal.
• 42:40
  Speaker 4: It's that Cynthia Erivo says, I didn't know that was happening.
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: Not just like, I didn't know.
• 42:45
  Speaker 3: She reacts like she got an Oscar.
• 42:48
  Speaker 4: She finds out, hey, this is being used to secret
• 42:51
  Speaker 4: prisoners out.
• 42:52
  Speaker 1: Of North Korea.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: We're using Abu Ghraib to fucking torture people.
• 42:55
  Speaker 1: That's what it sounds like. She's like, is that happening?
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: And then she goes, Yeah, there's a few posts.
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: Well, it's also like I'm in queer media. I'm in
• 43:05
  Speaker 4: queer media, so I'm an expert on people holding space.
• 43:09
  Speaker 4: It's such a subjective and ephemeral description. It's like people
• 43:13
  Speaker 4: are holding space for the lyrics. I actually believe if
• 43:15
  Speaker 4: you take away the jargon, I think one of the
• 43:18
  Speaker 4: reasons people are loving Wicked so much is it is
• 43:20
  Speaker 4: about a fascistic state and it's rising and the people
• 43:25
  Speaker 4: deciding that this person was evil, but they're all wrong.
• 43:27
  Speaker 4: And the wrong is like, fully.
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: Accepted i don't have no idea what the story is
• 43:31
  Speaker 1: it's the prequel it's i know that i know that
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: part that's all i know.
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: Um and it's beautiful and it's incredibly well made.
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah but if you just said yeah a lot of
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: people are listening to the blah blah song because it
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: means a lot to them in this weird political moment.
• 43:44
  Speaker 4: And then right and the idea that you'd be like
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: i didn't know that was happening is such a funny
• 43:47
  Speaker 4: thing to be like have you like.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: What honestly just like holding the nail holding the one
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: fingers
• 43:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah ariana grande having no fucking idea what's going on
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: like i i I want this to be in a
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: time capsule about like this period in politics in the
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: United States because it's perfect.