Latest / The ROAR Podcast / The ROAR Podcast:Jim Renne, AECOM
Transcript
- Caroline Valvardi: Welcome to the Roar podcast. I'm your host, Caroline Valvardi, and with me today is Jim Rennie, Senior Vice President and Managing Director of AE Coms Sports Practice. Welcome to the podcast. Brice Clinton: What does it take to design a venue that doesn't just host a game, but anchors a community? In this episode, Caroline sits down with Jim Rennie, Senior Vice President and Managing Director with ADComp Sports Practice, and one of the most influential voices in sports architecture working today. An architect by training, Jim's career launched on the first privately financed arena in NBA history. Jim Renne: Great, thanks Caroline. Happy to be here. Caroline Valvardi: Yes, I know you've been traveling a lot, very much appreciate your time and especially busy time of year too. So excited ⁓ have you and to hear all your wonderful insights. Brice Clinton: From there, he helped reimagine Arthur Ashe Stadium for the US Open, designed the first MLS-specific soccer stadium, and former affront, and led the adaptive reuse of three downtown Detroit warehouses into what became Ford Field. Today, he leads AECON's global sports practice. Caroline and Jim take us through why the industry may stubbornly risk averse, how misused districts are reshaping economics around the building itself, Caroline Valvardi: How we start a lot of these episodes is asking you to tell us a bit about your career journey and how you arrived to the role now. So we'd love to hear you just talk a bit that. ⁓ and all the things before that and how you ended up where you are now. Jim Renne: Yeah. It's certainly a long journey given my age, but I'll try to make it very condensed. think that, you know, I was really interested in architecture, obviously, so I'm an architect, right? So I'm an architect, follow through in the profession. ⁓ ⁓ point early in my career, I ended up working for a company that actually was doing some work in sports. And at that point in time, the company was ⁓ Brice Clinton: What it means in premium offerings have grown from three products to 20. They get into the convergence of technology and infrastructure, the emerging role of vertical takeoff vehicles on game day, AECOM's work as a partner of LA 28, first Olympics being staged without a single new venue being built, and how data and AI are changed the way capital decisions get made. Jim Renne: finishing up the first privately financed arena in the NBA. And until then, you know, in the history of ⁓ sports and facilities, you know, they were typically infrastructure projects taken on by public sector. But ⁓ the team we worked for, Detroit Pistons owner had decided that there's a way to do this and ⁓ have find way to pay for it. So... ⁓ Brice Clinton: close on what's really at stake. Not castles for billionaires, but assets for communities. Few people in the industry can speak to the evolution of modern sports venues, with the kind of firsthand authority Jim brings, having helped design the buildings, the experiences, and now the districts that are defined in era. I'm Bryce Clinton, and this is Aurora Podcast. Jim Renne: It was really the launch of my starting to understand how to connect architecture and sports business. to say, I was still pretty young and that led me to getting experience in working for professional tennis, the USDA. We just finished designing main stadium, Arthur Ashe in Flushing, New York, which then I got a to circle back. years later to do more work there. And then we started doing work for ⁓ MLS. And we were ⁓ doing ⁓ the MLS specific soccer stadium. And ⁓ from there we ended doing four more ⁓ MLS stadiums. would call sort Gen 1 soccer stadiums. So during this time, all of sudden I was immersed in sports. loved it. I think sports venues related to sports and activation and entertainment, it affects so many people, right? Thousands of people. was a real, it was really exciting to be able to design things that affected people. And then, one does in your career, become more sophisticated in understanding that going back to thinking about that business side, it really stuck me. the rest of my career, ⁓ understood the connection between creating places where people want to be and people want to experience the event, but connecting that with value that ⁓ people to pay to experience that event in a very unique way. So, fast forward, I ended up ⁓ a firm as a partner to start up a rep practice ⁓ at a company that really started to get into sports. And while owner representation project management was a core business, as was real estate, I was able to focus on the sports side of the business and representing professional teams, sometimes public sector, develop their sports facility. ⁓ And as an owner as you would imagine, not in my really focus on the design, frankly, I'm focused on everything, everything that has to be done in order to create satisfy kind of the vision objectives, particularly the business objectives of my clients. Excuse So that really gave me another perspective with respect the entire process one has to go through from enabling an actual vision ⁓ how you finance that, engaging public sector, understanding how to unlock real estate, understanding to create destinations beyond the sports facility. And ⁓ the has grown, so has how of sports evolved. ⁓ So no longer do have kind of just the avid fans that are focused on wanting to watch the event, whatever event that is. But you had casual fans coming in and wanting to experience the event, but also want to experience the sort of aura of being at a large event. And in my work at the US Open, you know, which is really unique in the sense that you've got to, at that time it was two weeks of just nonstop action, focused on what was going on. There are so many different levels of what you experience from being in the field courts to being in the stadium. And so experience of the fam was critical and it started diversifying. know, Gen 1 Arena is back to going back to the Detroit Pistons. had suites, had club seats and then you have general admission seats. Right. And at the time that the value was unlocked was the owner of the Pistons. We were able to bring the sweet product down into the lower bowl, which was never done before. Right. So Think about that in the progression of where we are today, where you might have two products of premium, maybe three products of premium in the old days 20 years ago or more to today. You might have 20 different premium products. And that's to address the preference of fans, right? Everybody now wants different kinds of experiences to the extent that we're experiences for fans, which is today's challenge. So today, I went from being the owner rep and had a really amazing opportunity to ⁓ join AECOM with a really long legacy of ⁓ sports facilities and to take on the leadership in running this practice. So that me an opportunity to now really refocus, let's say, a design practice really focused on the business objectives of ⁓ the client. But also my experience in the last seven plus years really working on mixed use destinations surrounding sports is giving us, I think, another perspective of experience, another level of understanding of what value is to not only a fan, but also to the investor, to the team, and so on. And so today, we're... continue diversify our practice from the standpoint of different types of work that we do, as well as extending our capabilities, broader capabilities the ACOMP practice to ⁓ out to ⁓ these destinations and ⁓ on the infrastructure and so on. So that's kind of been my career journey for the last over 30 years. Caroline Valvardi: Amazing. Thank you. I think you're reading my mind a bit because I was going to ask you a bit about the evolution from your time seeing stadiums and arenas and how they've evolved. And you mentioned mixed use districts, which is kind of this next evolution beyond the stadium or arena. ⁓ So know you've talked a bit about that, but ⁓ I I would phrase the question as what has surprised you most about the evolution of stadiums and arenas over your ⁓ time? Jim Renne: Yeah. Yeah, what surprised me, that continued to surprise me was how slow the sports industry is adapting to change. You know, as architects, ⁓ designers, you we're creative, right? You expect us to be creative ⁓ and we dream up all kinds of things that could be different, right? So then you put on the business hat and say, well, it's different, but it's got to be a value for that difference. Well, the reality is ⁓ The sports industry is, just like many industries, is risk averse. ⁓ I was with my partner of a previous firm, ⁓ ⁓ some what seemed like outlandish ideas, like the upper bowl, just doing with an upper bowl. The ⁓ experience is great. It costs the most to build those upper decks and translate that into a different kind of product that today's fans would potentially value more, right? But ⁓ my gosh, we've talked for years ⁓ clients that really love the idea but have been very hesitant to ⁓ the let's call it the typical bowl of a sports facility. We're not that different today than what was done over 2,000 years ago at the Coliseum, right? We're still same. Yeah, okay, so of course there's events and you got to watch the event and so on, but the reality is our culture has changed so much and how we experience and how we want to an event has changed and our preferences have changed. So that's what surprised me the most. It's just that everyone called resistance to change, but let's it, it's very incremental and risk is, we're going to be risk averse. So that risk of changing something that everybody expects. always been there. So that's what surprised me the most I would say, Caroline. Caroline Valvardi: Thank you. Yeah, that's interesting. I wasn't expecting that as an answer because we with surge is very focused on the sports mixed use piece of it and all of the ancillary around the statement arena. talk a lot about innovation and immersive experience and ⁓ evolution of technology. And ⁓ is something that moves extremely fast. So for you, how you reconcile some of that now? I guess, and how is a come grappling with some of that of ⁓ trying to stay up to date with technology and trends and what are things going to look like a year from now versus five years from now versus 10 years from now as ⁓ industry that as you're saying, they move slower. ⁓ Jim Renne: Yeah. Well, if I put on my broader AECOM hat, know, we do very large projects and we work with the public sector, you know, as a big part of our practice. And when you're thinking about putting in place infrastructure, and I'm to use that loosely because infrastructure could be anywhere from roads and bridges to technology backbones to what's called even sports ⁓ facilities. become ⁓ you know, become, they're physical, right? So those are hard, there's a huge investments that go into that. They're hard to change once you make that investment and put it in place. So that's not really gonna change. what does, what will change is really rethinking what is permanent versus what is transitional. I'm not gonna call it temporary, but let's call it transitional, right? Which it means that today, our sports clients really talk about, well, how do I future proof this? Well, the reality is really can't. But what you can do is think about flexibility, thinking about not being overly specific about the solution you're bringing to the table, whether it's a real estate solution, an arena solution, a seating where we know that over time, ⁓ you put infrastructure in place. you're going to end up changing it because you're going to have to sort of find ways to make it, to keep it relevant. Plus infrastructure ages and things start breaking down once you maintain it and so on. technology on the other hand, and the intersection of technology with infrastructure is a challenge, right? So how does technology influence buildings? Let's call it, I'm going to stay with sports. Changes the two things changes the the fan experience the user experience, right? So you're you're augmenting their experience with technology and it does change the the infrastructure itself the ability to operate efficiently Operate with less cost by by utilizing systems and new technologies so But the bricks and mortar if you will probably not going to change too much maybe ⁓ arenas and stadiums are getting smaller because you don't have exactly the same, let's call it, ⁓ avid fan, well, intensity perhaps that maybe we've had in the past. But at the same time, how you experience maybe not just in an arena or stadium, it's maybe activations that occur elsewhere. The industry has always challenged with how do we compete with the living room? Right. And, you know, I don't know what the answer is to that, but I think the answer starts with how you can how you create a unique compelling experience for that person be willing to spend their time and money to go somewhere that they can't do anywhere else in their living room. Right. So I'm really answering directly your question, but I think there's this convergence that's happening and it's really how we adapt those convergences. We just had a I mean, ⁓ I spent afternoon with a team not, you know, just this week actually. And we were talking about transformation and how do we address access to a sports facility and how do we address our really high premium fans and improve that experience from, well, we used to call it street to seat. We call it from maybe living room to seat. And we're talking about vertical transportation, not like elevators and escalators. We're talking about helicopters, right? Or we're talking about VTOL vehicles. so, you know, that's our industry, you know, our company, for example, is very, very forward thinking about how to move that industry forward. So that not only is it safe, but the economics make sense. it actually is a way to transport people. So it's not just your car or public transportation, not just Uber's, know, rideshare anymore. But now you have these vertical vehicles that kind of come in, drop you off. and then move on. So that's kind of how, you know, evolution ⁓ not just a broader industry, but about how that affects the business that I'm in, which is creating these places for our clients and for their fans in unique ways. So it's still incremental, right? And I mentioned that earlier, it's still incremental. And I always feel like we're in the sports industry, we're trying to get our clients to kind of catch up. But you know, we get it. get, you know, we have to kind of inform, do incremental improvements, make sure, you know, there's a return on that investment and then you keep going. So. Caroline Valvardi: Thank you. Yeah, there's so many points. like thinking of all the next questions I want to ask you. One, though, I to touch on transportation, since you mentioned, is always a very interesting topic for folks, and particularly for the public when they think about stadiums and arenas and the traffic and how you deal with all that. And I think a lot of these projects now, as they expand to with the mixed use, the multimodal transportation, and you mentioned helicopters. I guess, can you talk a little bit about Jim Renne: Yes. Caroline Valvardi: Any evolution around that in transportation and how you think about transportation ⁓ game day and then beyond. I, cause it's always this push and pull, you know, there's requirements around how much parking is needed. And then there's certain ⁓ where it's like tailgating is like we need our parking lots. And, but at the same time, it's like, you can do so much more. And there's all these other considerations around how you use that, that land and space. So yeah, I'd love to hear you talk a little bit more. Jim Renne: Yeah. Caroline Valvardi: dig in a little deeper on transportation and how you're thinking about it today. Jim Renne: Yeah, well, you talk about these mixed use developments and entertainment districts and so on. So, you know, you're expanding the experience for the users. Now, I will say one thing, first of all, we're planning these destinations and mixed use districts around sports, entertainment venues, I mean, the reality is in real estate, it also has to work on dark days, right? It's almost like a, you know, it's a given that Yeah, your bars and restaurants will be full on game day. Yeah, your hotel rooms will be full when you have an event taking place maybe the day after or the night before. But the reality is that some of the fundamentals of real estate still have to hold is that if it's a dark day in the event, that's still going to be able to operate, right? That the restaurants are going still be used, that people are going to still go to the office that day, and so on. So you think about that ecosystem in and smaller, ⁓ call it ⁓ where there's mixed use. But I talked about what the helicopters are, I ⁓ the vertical and landing, VTOL, called vehicles, they're being now developed and then try figure out what the infrastructure is for that, even more so for these destinations because... while it's not as practical to try to land on the stadium, right? But it's definitely practical, just like you might have an parking lot or a, let's call it a bus station or a transit station. You easily conceive of a ⁓ VTOL station where vehicles come and go, right? And I think ⁓ that is appropriate for these destinations where they can kind of come in. It's just a different mode of transportation. You know, for now, I think we can start thinking about in our company is thinking about, how do you actually deploy that with with investors? A ton of the kind of private equity interest in this right now and and institutional investments sort of looking at this and trying to understand what the what the future is. ⁓ We've talked a couple. Let's call it development groups in sports that are ⁓ trying to that part of the infrastructure, too. So. transit-oriented developments, we've known about that, we know they're valued, you have to be planned properly, but when you mix TODs with sports entertainment, and then you diversify TOD to include BTOL, that's actually an easy transition. There's a lot of logistics related to that, obviously, in the year and other things, but I think it just makes a ton of sense. we like that, like, you know, opportunities for people to get to these places in alternative ways. Our country has a car culture for sure. For those of us who live in large metro areas, have reasonable public transportation systems, we rely on that and that's great. But most of the country doesn't have that. So we have to be able to adapt and make it easier for fans and guests and visitors to get to these places. VTOL may not be for everybody today, but who knows what's gonna happen in 10 years. And then there are others that maybe you put on another layer where people wanna live around these. So mixed use development also includes housing of some sort, some sort of residential development. So people don't actually have to go very far to get entertained. They can walk several blocks to get to it and they're already there, right? Caroline Valvardi: Great. Yeah. Thank you for sharing that. And that brings up the next point. You've been working this space a long time and you mentioned some of the public private partnership element of it. And particularly as we talk about mixed use, it's even, you know, can have an even greater real public benefit. And when you talk about infrastructure and transportation, have you seen ⁓ mixed use development or even just generally, have you seen any changes or sentiment changes or the way that public officials when you talk about public private partnership, look at these stadium and arena projects and or now, you know, with the mixed use element, you know, has there have you seen any changes or evolution in the way that that piece of it? Jim Renne: Yeah, no, that's a question. You know, there's always been two sides to the argument of supporting sports facilities, right? There are those that claim it has significant economic impact. And then they'll say that, you know, it's really not a good deal for a public sector to divert, it's tech dollars or, know, whatever to help finance a venue. I think the argument's changing a bit, even more, swaying towards, if it also catalyzes other development, then ⁓ maybe bigger upside that ⁓ I waits towards more why public sector and the public should support. Again, every deal is different, right? So this is not a blanket statement, but I think the reality is that there is huge opportunity for upside for a community. If there is a development that's right for the community, that into account community engagement ⁓ and ⁓ needs that community, that there's benefit that comes from sports activation, entertainment activation, and then development that it catalyzes. so, ⁓ yeah, mean, we're, know, we, ⁓ people would invest expected as a return. So I think public private partnerships are essential to the growth of this economy, to be frank. smart, deal making is really important because I think it's, I think the sector misses out if you shy away from these sort of things. And again, you know, every case is going to be different. It to be scrutinized, has to be evaluated. You have to write experts in the room to help advise, you know, right? But I think there's a true benefit. And I think when we talk about mixed use destinations, I think this is a huge benefit, frankly, for the public sector. Again, it's not too hard to, I mean, there many examples, not only in the site them because they're already out there and people can do their research, but where in some cases, some... You know, some projects, these are long-term projects, by the way. Anybody in real estate development understands this, you know, and, you know, these are 10-year developments, maybe more, 20 years over time. But, you know, that's what this is about. know, things don't change overnight like that in the real estate world and creating culture, a place where, you know, people want to live, people want to work, and, you know, being a market oriented market ⁓ driven society, i.e. we're driven by what the demand is by the market. are not doing what people don't want, right? mean, generally developers are more averse and they'll only build if the demand is there. So it's a complex conversation, but in a nutshell to me, think creating how entertainment catalyzes ⁓ smart development a ⁓ I think, for communities, for in general, if done ⁓ well. Caroline Valvardi: Sure. Thank you. Yeah. That's it. Interesting because for me coming into this more from a community development background and just, you know, when you read all the different sides of things, that's why I find this industry really interesting too, because there are so many different perspectives and I find a lot on all sides. There's a lot of validity to all of them. And so like, where do you find that common ground for all the different stakeholders? And I do think with mixed use, there's this whole other element that a stadium or arena obviously on its own is not providing. It is a big opportunity with the mix to be like, yes, we're going to redo some of these roads and some of the transportation. It's an opportunity to make it more livable and ⁓ Jim Renne: Yeah, that's right. Well, let me, yeah, sorry to interrupt Caroline, but let's think about this. mean, think about the old stadiums especially now. You know, I totally understand the tailgating mentality of football, for example, having done it and lived it myself so many years, right? But you're dedicating so much surface parking lot in order to accomplish that, which is not really a long-term sustainable solution, not just from a, you know, not just from a real estate. perspective, but the reality is acres of parking lot in asphalt is not environmentally friendly. It doesn't provide an opportunity to create more value for a community when you have empty parking lots, when you don't have games. So it's a conversation that's been going on. so again, there's that tension. It's a creative tension of benefits versus risk and in loss, but I think in the wave and the movement is positive. And I health debate is critical ⁓ so that all trying to get it right. I'm participating, we're a member of the Green Sports Alliance ⁓ and there's summit coming up again this year, next week in And AECOM is a member and we're participating in the conversation of how to... you know, how to be focused on sustainable facilities. you know, this is not about being registered or certified. This is about thinking about long-term sustainability from an energy perspective, from an environment perspective, from an infrastructure perspective, from communities and people's experience perspective. That conversation is really critical. you know, we feel it's important to participate in that conversation since... not just our sports practice, but our entire organization is focused on making that better future and development. Caroline Valvardi: Thank you. Now, I know you are also working globally. And so I want to transition a bit to how ⁓ some of the similarities differences in both the evolution of stadiums and arenas and also the mixed use development when you talk about, you know, the US versus Europe or or the Middle East. We'd love to hear some of your insights and maybe some of the places that AECOM is working or in your other past experience, I know, that's a big question ⁓ because so different across all these different markets. But yeah, there's just any insights on differences you see or ⁓ trends you're seeing now in some versus others. Jim Renne: Yeah, right. Yeah. Well, you know, I'm probably not the same thing new that for those who work globally, but, you know, I've been working globally in various ways for 20 years and, you know, my previous firm as a partner, I was opening up offices in China, for example, so that, you know, go back to the between 2012 and 2018, I was traveling to Asia and a lot of my personal experience and work for the company was working in Asia. So between China, Japan, Korea, and some of the other countries, including Singapore, just Hong Kong. The cultural differences not only are important to understand, but it's really the frankly business practices, And then how does country governments and ⁓ what's relationship with business? So, in China, my experience there was the basically was the 100 pound gorilla. And all that means is that they owned all the facilities, they controlled investment. And so the sector ⁓ and frankly, even sports, ⁓ and I'll stick sports for a second, while there was a of interest in understanding how to capitalize on sports, on sports infrastructure, I'll call it, having seen what's happening in the West, and particularly in the US, how do they create venues that actually aren't so capital intensive, so have to be subsidized so much by the government, but in fact, to be turned over to the private sector to actually run at a profit, right? So ton of conversation, but like any government, it was very hard to transition that mindset. And despite tons and tons of conversations I've had with government. sector staff employees and advisors, know, the interest was there. It was always difficult to make that, you know, let's call it that, that commitment to go on that path. Now let's take, you know, let's take the Mideast, example. Now ACOM, for example, very heavily participating in the Middle East ⁓ of our, the nature of the work that we're doing. And, know, we're doing, we're doing a lot of advisory work there. I mean just think about that, right? Think about government slash investment and just completely different perspective. The motivation for investing is very different, let's say, than ⁓ is in Europe. Now, I'm gonna jump to Europe for a second. And in Europe, ⁓ ⁓ just having a conversation about just earlier before this call actually about a particular country that has different laws governing... public sector investment, development. So if you're a professional, like I am in ⁓ company, providing professional services, liability, these things come into play when you're actually trying to practice ⁓ in country. In that particular country, ACOM is, do a lot of government or public sector work, and we're also very interested in making sure that we mitigate our right? So there's a lot of challenges. operating ⁓ these countries. And that particular country is going to be a challenge for us to work on. So I don't know if we'll be able to work in that country. ⁓ ⁓ then you take South America, ⁓ a whole nother ball of wax. Right. And there are some countries that are from call. Not even for me. And that's not my opinion. But, you know, from a capital perspective, capital is willing to invest in other countries. They're not. So it's such a case by case basis, clearly, Caroline, but, you know, different regions. Provide different kinds of opportunities, but they're also looking for solutions that fit their region in their market and like like even in the US in different states different countries have different social agendas and You know you have to obviously respect that ⁓ it's what influences what kind of investment goes into sports entertainment facilities ⁓ then you know are they seen as cultural I mean we all know football European football is it's ⁓ like a religion, right? And that's so much is here in the US, but then, you know, that can change. know, World Cup's going to come this year and things are going to change and the whole new motivation to, you know, to rethink about how we think about football here in the States. Anyway, I just feel like everybody has to understand the culture, the... legal aspects of investing and actually doing work. Looking at how, you know, what is, what is the social, I say social, I'm talking about social agenda of that, of that country, of the people in that country. And then how, how is private investment looked at in relation to public investment in public sector. So obviously a topic. ⁓ One thing looking days, if not months, talking about it. ⁓ Caroline Valvardi: Yes. Jim Renne: But it's interesting, having had a chance to practice in lot of different countries and at least do work as we do here in ECON, ⁓ it's interesting challenge. ⁓ Sometimes, oftentimes frustrating, but no less motivated. And ⁓ I frankly it. ⁓ Caroline Valvardi: can you tell us what markets you're most bullish on if you have any moments? Jim Renne: Well, Europe, I'll just say again, sports perspective, Europe for sure. I used to say 10 ⁓ years ago, when you look at broad regions, US always still number one from a sports perspective. Sports investment, I'll call it sports properties. mean, that's quite global being the team, team venues, and then now mixed use development, right? ⁓ but also includes other things like sports technology and numerous other things. we're by far the leader in investing in sports, but it's also a business. Europe has been kind of second in my mind. 10 years ago, used to think it was US, Europe. I didn't even say Middle East. Middle East was always off and on to me. Just ⁓ didn't know, because was always kind of a motivation for investment. ⁓ But let's just, I'm gonna go back to China and the Asian countries where I thought that was third in terms of lagging in private investment in sports business, including stadiums, arenas and the like, right? So today the European business is certainly matured significantly and different countries more so than others for various reasons. you also see... a lot of the American sports team owners and investors now more globally owning teams. again, everybody knows that. And I think the business mentality moved into Europe for sure, not that it wasn't there before. think government, you know, regulations, ability to own stadiums arenas, for example, in ⁓ Italy, you right? And so a lot of that's evolved. And now you're seeing that market that is a region really, ⁓ really growing. ⁓ so we've been focused a lot on that. ⁓ you probably know, we've got a ⁓ of presence in Europe and we're our understanding of the market in different countries, the investment in those countries and how to work with the public sector in those countries. We're leveraging that ⁓ to help private... team owners to navigate how to develop and how to create what they think, what they're trying to achieve for their teams and their team fans in those countries. And then again, the Middle East, it's, again, I don't have to say anything new here, it's just other than, it's again motivated by big world events and they don't like World Cup or the Olympics and the AECOM is... has really a legacy in working Olympics. Today we're working with LA 28. We're a partner of LA 28. We're navigating the infrastructure for LA 28, which will be the first Olympics without a new building being built for it, which has its own challenges. So we're navigating that both on our design side as well as our construction partners. And we've been involved in Rio, we've been involved in London. ⁓ So, know, world events like that drive a lot of attention to a country, needless to say, and a lot of investment goes there. So that's what tends to drive development in Middle East. And so there it's going to be, what's the opportunity that we can serve our clients in a way and advise our clients in a way that achieves what they're trying to achieve. again, based on their... their agenda, the country's agenda, the country's social agenda, we're supporting that. So from the standpoint of infrastructure, we don't get involved in politics, just to be clear. That's not what it's about, but it's really just about, how can we help you achieve a development agenda since we design and build these things and we're focused on that. So, and we continue to watch Latin America. lot of great things happening in Latin America. Some countries are really, really interesting to be paying attention to. we're paying attention to that as well. But I think I successfully skirted particular spot for you. ⁓ But ⁓ we're looking at all of it. Yeah. Caroline Valvardi: Great. Cool for you. Great. So that's kind of a transition into next question about you've mentioned some really cool, interesting projects. So can you share what may be one of your most favorite projects that you're currently working on or from the past and why? Jim Renne: Well, let me cite two projects. as you know, I you know how this is, anything we're working on is always confidential. And unless it's obviously already out in the public, we don't talk about this stuff, right? But needless to say, one of the things that, and I go back to a project I was involved in 20 years ago. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, so if I don't get that out of Jim Renne: I talk about this because the experience I had designing Ford Field for the Detroit Lions was kind of a seminal moment for me in my career, sort of mid-career, maybe 25 years ago now. The reason I want to bring it up is because at that point in time when Bill Ford wanted to move the team from the suburbs to the traditional suburban stadium, acres and acres of parking lot, not activated at all in between games, home games that is, right? And we're talking back then maybe nine, 10 home games. And to move to downtown Detroit was a big move. And the question was, do you put a football stadium in downtown Detroit? Now, despite what you think about Detroit, even in past, it was still a challenge to do anything in Detroit. or rather at least to find land that would make sense for people to come down to. Long story, ⁓ we out with designing a standalone football stadium like you would expect probably anybody to do. The short story of that is that because of budget reasons, the Fords asked us to revisit an old concept we had that was discarded, which was, how do we, that existing infrastructure, i.e. in this case, were warehouses that were not being utilized as a ⁓ part of the building because, you know, to us it made sense because look, adaptive reuse of a building is not being used, also an opportunity to ⁓ with history, ⁓ know, ⁓ Detroit. ⁓ so to me, it was an well, ⁓ though was rejected, we came back to it because we actually could save, you know, probably 25, I think about 25 % of the overall development cost by adapting, you know, three warehouse buildings as a part of the stadium. 25 years ago. you think you look at Camden Yards, for example, that's that was sort of inspiration for that. And that was sort of that era a little bit before that when Camden Yards opened. But became a way of thinking about investing in the inner city again. Right. And it also became a way of thinking about, hey, stadiums don't always have to be these big, bright, shiny objects that are iconic as standalone objects, but they can become iconic from the integration into urban, in the urban fabric. So to me, to this day, I don't, I, you know, I want to say that I just can't think yet of another stadium, certainly an NFL stadium that has done that. The model maybe, European soccer, right? Or let's call it football. In Europe, that's how it happened. know, stadiums were in neighborhoods and they grew and they grew and they grew. So that's, you know, historically, we've seen that in Europe. They've lived that in Europe. In the U.S., everything's new. mean, you know, how we are. So anyway, I think that's seminal and continue to be relevant in the industry. You've done, you know, gone through a major renovation program leading that on behalf of the Detroit Lions not too long ago. And, you know, is there so. you can still invest ⁓ the ⁓ of ⁓ professional venue and without feeling like have to create this sort of other thing. Now, the other thing I wanted to talk about was really thinking about, well, thinking soccer. So were involved, ⁓ again, as a partner, as former firm, we were involved in the first soccer specific stadium. to me, that was the MLS, frankly, in late 90s were looking to maybe potentially fold and a few investors and benefactors of that league stepped up and ⁓ to try to launch that the next, you know, the new generation ⁓ work, know, besides Columbus. being really the first, we were involved in LA the LA Galaxy and at the time Phil Anshut's own that franchise. And not only it just a soccer scene, but he created a destination for sports, multi-sports destination that became Olympic training grounds, one of the Olympic training grounds. Eventually different sports showed up, not just tennis, not just soccer. But VeloGerm was built. So to me, that was sort of a, I think about that as sort of another seminal project where sports can create an ecosystem. In this case, it was about sports. And in a way, is what drove other sort of things to get there. And you got organizations that participated, you had partnerships that were created. And to me, I that comes to mind as another. really amazing project. think while back then, at the MLS called it the Cathedral of Soccer, for the US anyways, for MLS. Yeah, it's been superseded by a lot of others, but it's still relevant. And ⁓ ACOM is studying and some renovations there. And we continue to do that with some other MLS teams that we've been involved in. And ⁓ so, ⁓ I love to see... a sport like soccer just grow and grow and grow. And then we're creating these venues that really support the soccer culture in the U.S. I think what's cool about that is that we're ⁓ creating our own culture of ⁓ that is not, you know, maybe came from kind of seeing the passionate soccer fans globally to maybe what is that for the U.S. So it's cool to see a sport like that grow. But again, I feel like the the stadium for the LA Galaxy was a really start of that next investment professional soccer. Caroline Valvardi: Yeah, yes, very exciting and all the conversations around, how will the World Cup kind of put soccer kind of on more of a stage will be very interesting to see how all that plays out. So, right, I need to get in one question about ⁓ this is the rural podcast and that is surges data analytics platform. And this may be, maybe the question we end up closing on ⁓ unless any other topics that we didn't know that you would like to, but. ⁓ But yeah, how are you thinking about data and using data as, just so much more capability obviously with AI and how are you using data for the decision making ⁓ and how you plan your projects and implement your project. Jim Renne: Yeah. Great question and data is critical. Look, I mean, we all rely on data anymore and there's good reasons for that. And I'll just take one little example where without sort of sharing too much proprietary information, we create a tool for doing renovations. What is that tool? What that tool does is it helps to take data from other sources on cost, on revenue, on value propositions, on different improvements within an arena. And then through the analytics of this particular tool, are able to then kind of bring a little bit more scientific perspective on how you prioritize projects. you have a lot of venues have been around a while ⁓ and There's always a debate about how much investment you keep putting into a venue before it makes more sense to build new. there's always that threshold where ⁓ happens and we all in sports know about But what we do do ⁓ is to at data from various sources. So I talked just simple things like costs, revenue, income ⁓ related to maybe improvements. We've baked in analytics and building systems, right? So we understand building, we're also engineers in our company and we can sort of analyze, know, the, ⁓ I'm an engineer, so I'm not using the right words here, but really the ⁓ long-term cycle of building systems, including technology, and then how that can facilitate and ⁓ evolve over What I'm talking about here is a tool that we've created that's consolidating all this data and then through criteria that we've baked in criteria for prioritizing projects and also to ⁓ link related projects. what we talk about, for example, is know aging facilities have infrastructure, potential infrastructure issues, and you have a life cycle there, and some things have to be replaced. or maybe maintained properly, it can last a lot longer. But then you have, you we talk about evolution of premium experience for fans. We're be looking at that and saying, you know, but for your marketing, for this particular venue and your sport, you know, we need to transform an existing non-performing premium asset to something that's different or take something that's underutilized and transform. create something that's utilized in a very robust way. All those things have implications from a cost standpoint, from a revenue standpoint, sponsorship standpoint, and then you mix that with infrastructure upgrades that have to happen. Then you get this complex decision matrix that you have to vet through. Well, this tool analyzes all that, helps us based on ⁓ criteria that we've established. We fine tune that with the criteria that the team and their owner and their operator brings, or all of them, bring to the table. It allows us then to create results that think, because of the data and the analytics that go through of consolidating and integrating that, gives us information that, like that, identifies for us what needs to be accomplished. It identifies all the risks associated with it. It identifies all the interdependencies. And then if you change one interdependency, what happens? Real time, you get to see what happens, right? So this is not yet AI. I'm going to call it AI yet. But it's a tool that we're today that's been super helpful with our clients and ⁓ us, frankly, help advise our clients on prioritizing work, what's the capital investment. from that perspective, they can understand what's the cash flow look like and what's the investment look like on an annual basis, what's the cost savings, the operational savings, energy savings. We can talk to energy companies start negotiate ⁓ rebates a number of other things. it's amazing what data can do, honestly. And ⁓ when think about that and think about ⁓ applying ⁓ true with keeping an eye on it, you know. We all know we have to be careful about AI, but it's made a huge difference. And this is only going to accelerate, right? And I think unless you really take advantage of it, unless you find a way to leverage it, you're to be challenged to stay relevant, to be frank. Caroline Valvardi: Well, thank you. feel like we've covered quite a bit of topics. So unless there's anything else that you wanted to share, I can let you go. I know you're going to take your time out. Jim Renne: Yeah, I guess the only thing I would just add in closing is that, you know, we're, this is a really interesting time. It's always been an interesting time. guess everybody says that, but, you know, we're all challenged with all kinds of things and us in the sports industry and in particular, in my case, as an advisor, as a consulting ⁓ designer, of not just venues, but developments, you know, just, we just know that there's a lot of opportunity with creating, not just on the economic and business side, but frankly, when we're focused on creating communities and what's best for communities, I think we're still interested, very interested in how do we improve that too, right? So sports isn't about just billionaires spending money and building castles. It's about really creating community assets and we're... super focused on that mindset as well. Caroline Valvardi: Well, thank you. love that. And that is my personal reason of why I got into the work because there is just such opportunity to bring more local community benefit, particularly when we talk about the mixed use surrounding development and all that. So thank you. Thanks for sharing that. Yes. Thank you so much for being on the podcast. All right. Take care. Jim Renne: That's right. Well, thanks for the opportunity, Caroline. Appreciate that. My pleasure. Take care of your day.