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Editing and Discovering Books with Janene MacIvor · WriterCon

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This week on the Writer Khn podcast, I would say writers write and writers
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read. Welcome to Writer Khan, a gathering place for writers to share their
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knowledge about writing and the writing world. Your hosts are William Bernhardt, best
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selling novelist and author of the Red Sneaker books on writing, and Renee Gutteridge,
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best selling author of over thirty novels and screenplays. Hey, they're writers.
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I'm joined today as usual by our sound engineer, Jesse Ulrich and Renee
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Gutteridge. Renee, we're in the crunch phase of preparing for writer Kahn.
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But I think you're also working on a movie project, aren't you. Well,
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you know what, I've gotten smart and I've started like like clearing out
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my schedule before on so that I have some space and time to focus on
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it. So that's my new that's the new me this year twenty twenty three.
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That's yeah, that's a smart I don't think people, you know,
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people come to the conference. Okay, now it sounds like I'm bragging a
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little bit because I am. But and they see how smoothly it runs and
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they think, oh, well I could do that and it doesn't turn out
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as well. I don't think people realize how much preparation goes into It's like
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the cliche they used to say about the violinist who so good he makes it
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look easy. I think you in particular, and I make all that pitching
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and manuscript review stuff look easy when it's well anything. But let me just
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say, folks who are listening, Bill works so hard on this year round
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and makes everything look smooth and easy, and works really hard for all of
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you. So I'm doing my part, my part and a team, but
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still, you really extraordinary working on this, So thank you for all your
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hard work. Well, I love this conference and seems to me it just
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gets big and better every year. Jesse, I understand you have a new
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member in your family is working out and more importantly, are you bringing spot
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to Wryter Khan? Listen, it'll be it'll be very hard to not bring
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him concerning how attaps we are to the little guy, but no, he's
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hill party thing. Hopefully by then him and Ahsoka will have bonded and not
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just stare at each other across hallways. So we're hoping for that, which
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was happening right before we left town and then we separated them again. So
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who knows. We'll probably start back from zero when we get back into town.
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Ahsoka is also a cat, right Asoka's also a cat. Yes,
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and they shouldn't immediately start rubbing noses or no, they did not. Aska,
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Well, so we adopted from the University of Telsa that has like a
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collection of feral cats. And she is very does not like change, so
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it's gonna take a little while. But they're both very sweet, so all
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right, well, our interview today is with Janine McIver, senior editor with
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Thomas Nelson Publishers, which in specific for HarperCollins Christian Publishing, and for fifteen
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years before that she she did freelance management. She did all kinds of editing
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and proofreading. She has five children and six grandchildren who bring her, to
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quote, her immeasurable joy, and she loves sharing the world of literature with
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them. He has so much insight writers. I'm just telling you, this
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is a perfect interview and we'll share that with you, but after the news
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segments, so Jesse take us away. Well, it's official. KKR is
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in fact buying Simon and Schuster. I actually held back on this when the
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first murmurs arose because I thought, haven't we been down this road before?
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I wanted to make sure it is actually happening. But it is. This
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private equity firm KKR that's short for Kolberg Kravis Roberts and Company is paying one
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point six two billion in cash for Simon and Schuster. It's a bargain.
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Remember Jesse were talking about how if we could just scrape together two billion,
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we could buy this, but turns out it didn't even take that much.
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Anyway, As some of you who have been listening to the podcast for a
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while, we'll remember, Simon and Schuster first went up on the for sale
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three years ago, I think, and at first it looked like Penguin Random
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House, the largest publisher in the English speaking world, was going to buy
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them for two point two billion, but that didn't happen because of the Department
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of Justice said no, and this purchase will also have to go through regulatory
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view. But given that it's being bought by KKR, and the company is
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still going to function as a stand along, standalone publisher or I've been making
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the biggest bigger, I don't see any reason why they would object to that.
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It looks like we're still going to have a Big five. It's just
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that one of the five got a completely different owner. Renee, do you
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think so we'll have a big impact on the book industry? I mean,
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I honestly have no idea. It's it's interesting, but I guess I don't
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know exactly what impact it would make. But again, when we start off
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a story with private equity firm, that's when it's already over my head.
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So I don't know. Jesse might have a better idea. Jesse any thoughts.
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I mean, listen, for maybe the second time in history, maybe
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a private equity firm buying a book related thing will actually help because you know,
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most most of the time, when a private equity firm buys a thing,
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it's not good. But the private equity firm in the Barbarns and Noble
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has been doing pretty good, right, so they were toast and look what
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happened. Yeah, so let's let's hope. I mean, it's good that's
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not merging with another publishing company, thus removing competition and whatnot. So I'll
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give them the benefit of the doubt for now. Well, that's what everybody
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was predicting. Big five becomes Big four and there are fewer places agents can
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send books and whatnot. But it doesn't seem to have happened that way.
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And the only difference I can see is that you know it reinforces why do
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we continue to call these New York publishing houses because none of them is owned
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ultimately by a New York entity. They have offices there, but I don't
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know, you're asking the wrong person. To me, It's like New York
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pizza. New York always assumes there's a but it's really not the pizen,
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I will say to argue, I would like to argue that fact. But
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like pizza and bagels are different from books and how books are published. So
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like you don't want to have mcberry come on this podcast and yelled to you,
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I've had New York pizza so and yet here there he is in Tulsa,
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Oklahoma, getting bagels from a place that's called New York Bagel. But
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isn't that's fair? That's fair? It listens the best bagel we have,
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all right, it's our only option. Okay. News story number two A
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feud, A feud over you know it was gonna come AI Artificial intelligence book
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cover And this book cover has authors basically at one another's throat. This arose
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last week with this testy online back and forth between two writers and a writer
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and a publisher, leaving one author to use her own words in a state
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of absolute devastation. This feud centered around cover art used for a book called
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The Stricken, a novel authored by Morgan Shamy. Shaman teased the book in
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a video last July showing off its cover art, which is basically a woman
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standing with her eyes clothes overlayed over a fictional city's skyline. With all respect
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to the author, I will say this is not the most original concept for
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a cover. You've all seen it many times. I think I've used it
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a couple of times and other people's books that I've published. But at any
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rate, the cover has been found to have been created largely with artificial intelligence,
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at least according to another novelist, Rebecca Kenny, and she said so
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online and called out the publisher, a company called Camcat, for being quote
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harmful to the creative community. And there's other stuff I won't get into.
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But it doesn't get nicer or better as they go back and forth with all
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this complaining and accusations, and this poor author who didn't know until somebody starts
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harassing online camcap. The publisher has said there was information. They initially insisted
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that the cover was quote created by a talented artist who worked meticulously to capture
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the essence of the story, but they later clarified there are those snicker quotes
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again. They later clarified that its authors regularly use stock images in their work
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and conceded that most covers are not original illustrations. And this is not at
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all the first sign this has happened, Jesse, I suppose this is inevitable.
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All those images are out there and there are all these image generating programs.
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Now, though I doubt that these flame wars are going to fix anything.
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Is there a way authors can prevent this from happening to them? It's
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just it's honestly, it's just vigilance. I guess you've had to keep track
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of everything associated with their name. It's just another thing and sort of the
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authors playbook of people they have to have on staff. Now is someone to
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just watch for these sort of things? I believe, correct me if I'm
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wrong. The Internet, but a Wizards of the Coast got in trouble for
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a recent D and D sourcebook that had AI images on it in it,
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and but it was the illustrator using AI stuff as a sort of starting point
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to save themselves work. And so like both the company and the artists got
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in trouble. So like you just have to you know, we have to
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build tools to monitor and check these things, and we also just have to
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always be on alert now, just like with everything else. Can I throw
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something in here because I have an opinion about the all this, Let me
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warn writers how this will affect you if you are using AI. I've heard,
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I've already heard people using AI programs to as writing prompts to start something,
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to get generate an idea, to start generating whatever in your head.
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And if you use any portion of that in what you write, you are
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probably going to find that elsewhere in somebody else's writing as well. You're either
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taking from something, possibly from another author who's published, or you may find
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yourself in this same situation with this cover art thing. So I'm an advocate
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for not using AI at all as a writer. I think we are creative
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enough ourselves. But you see how this illustrator got in trouble. I'm I'm
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just going to start with it and then build use my own talent, and
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this is gonna be a huge mess. And if you don't, if you
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keep yourself out of it, then you don't have to worry. And if
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you throw yourself into and start using AI to help yourself in any kind of
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writing, you're going to be embroiled in something. So anyway, that's just
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a fun cautionary note from your your favorite neighborhood writer. I think that's great
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advice. Thanks all right, Jesse, qu up the music. Let's talk
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to Janine mckailer, mean, welcome to the podcast. Thank you so much.
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Okay, traditional first question, if you could offer writers one piece of
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advice, what would it be? It might be a two pronged piece of
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ad that's cheating, go ahead. I would say writers write and writers read
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pretty dead on it, and you can't do it if you're not doing both
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like regularly. Right, Thank you again for being on this podcast. It's
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been a while since we had an editor from a major publishing a house on
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the show. How do you describe what you your work? What do you
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do well on any two given projects? My job might be different, but
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if I take a book from bringing it into the team, pitching it to
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our edboard, we get a book contracts signed. Then the next step I
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work with the author. I wait for the manuscript is what I do next.
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But when the manuscripts come in, then it goes through a substantive or
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a developmental edit, depending on what shape it's in, and if it's in
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great shape, that might not be take a month. If it's not so
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great shape, we might even hire a writer for the author. So there's
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no two books that are exactly clear alike in the editorial process. But let's
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say this book. You send a book and you're a rock star author,
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so it takes about a month to go through the developmental and the substantive to
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where we're both happy with it, and then that would be passed off to
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a copy editor, and our team hires mostly freelance. We do have a
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professional copy editor as part of our team, so sometimes if if she has
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the bandwidth, it will stay in house with the copy edit. Then from
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the copy edit we style it for type setting. The type setter produces pages
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first pass first pages, depending on what lingo is being used, those pages
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go to two or three proofers. We hire out of house freelance. We
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work through vendors. It's changed somewhat. I've been in house for thirteen years
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now, and when I first came in house the editor, the in house
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editor hired directly the freelancers, so we had a lot of relationships. Since
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then, because of some legal issues, we've moved to hiring only through vendors,
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so we have five vendors. I have an editorial coordinator who reports to
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me. She's rock star and all the technology and organizing. If she would
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only come to my home and things, I would be person but I don't
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think I could afford her. But she reaches out to the vendors hires all
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of our freelancers so that there's no legal confusion as to that these freelancers should
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be being paid as full time workers and have all the benefits. So it
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can't. It just keeps getting more and more complicated, but that's the world
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we live in. Let me follow up on something you said if I make
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because you seem to indicate that you know you're actually acquiring some books that still
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need a lot of work, and I would have thought a big house like
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yours, that's just never going to happen. But not true. Not true
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due to the fact the platform has been king for the last few years.
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And so what that means, well, that the social media it's huge numbers
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and we're talking not five thousand, we're talking fifty thousand and really looking for
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those in the sixth figure. Also, speaking engagements, what our marketing department
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and sales department need to have some assurance that they're going to be able to
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sell this book sell enough copies that they can recoup. And you know,
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we're also not talking five thousand copies. We're looking for sales of thirty thousand
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plus to be able to break even. So that's something that we I often
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when I'm talking to prospective authors or someone who would like to move to the
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book proposal and have us take a lot. Often they have a thousand followers,
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and that's great. That is a lot of people, but not enough
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to go with the I'm going to summarize what I'm hearing is, if someone's
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got a good enough platform, you're willing to work with a manuscript that may
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not be ready for prime time yet. Yes, yes, that that would
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be a very concise answer. Sorry, I'm a lot of blind guy.
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Look at it. When we receive a proposal and we receive ninety nine point
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nine percent come through agents. But if we receive a proposal and one of
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the lead editors, one of us who is out there doing some acquiring,
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and I've been there long enough, I don't that's not my main emphasis.
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But I have brought a few books in and the lead editor or the acquisition
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editor reviews the proposal and thinks there's something that our team could do with it.
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Then that has to go to the associate publisher and the publisher and if
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they agree that it can be taken to the larger editorial team, well,
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we call it ed board, and it's all of the editors on my team,
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plus marketing people, our VP of marketing, and whoever is available marketing
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and publicity. We are sent the proposal, we read it. Hopefully they're
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sample writing, but not always. Then we vote on it and the three
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pieces that we're looking at and voting on from one to five our concept.
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You know that those coming ways. We'll get the same concept from eight different
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authors, and obviously we only want one or we might have we also like
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it. Have we is this something we need on our list? So we
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look at concept, we look at the writing, and we look at platform.
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It's a platform is just amazing, and our marketing is like drooling over
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it. Then if we ask for a writing sample, if there isn't one
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or the writing sample is poor, will suggest a writer and then that's part
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of the negotiations. Well, I think this lends itself to something I was
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going to comment on, which I don't think most people realize how very large
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and how diverse the Christian publishing world really is. Can you kind of describe
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for us just the range of books that you have there that Thomas Nelson publishes,
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Well, Thomas Nelson, we're under Newscore is the big umbrella Uncle Rupert,
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and then we come to Harvard Collum and then under Harpert Collins. Not
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that they're less then, but it's just the umbrella Harpert Collins Christian Publishing HCCP,
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and there are two main branches there. Zondervan Thomas Nelson used to be
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rivals. Now we're one big, happy family and against each other. We
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do. We have in house bids and those are not really fun, but
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that's just part of the game. But we have Zonder on my team.
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We don't do fiction. HCCP has a fiction arm, a strong a very
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strong fiction arm. But for non fiction we have Nelson Books my team,
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we have W. Pulvis Publishing another Nelson Books team, and then over with
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Zondervan their Sondervan Books. So we have tried and tried to be able to
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separate out what we do. It ain't happened. We all be pretty much
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the same thing, and it will come in way sometimes where the now Some
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Books is publishing celebrities, sometimes W seems to be publishing celebrities. Sometimes Sounder
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Band is publishing celebrities. So there's no hard and fast line. You know,
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if someone's written a nonfiction book and there's faith based content, we want
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to look at it well. Our regular listeners know already that I'm going to
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bring up writer Con at some point, and of course you've graciously agreed to
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appear at Writer Gone to speak and take pitches and so forth. I know
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you're traveling a long way to be here. Do you enjoy conferences when you
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get out of it? I do. I always learned something new, you
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know, and I love reading fictions, so I like to sit in and
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listen to what's going on in that world. Maybe it's because I work on
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nonfiction, but it's true for most of my fellow editors on the nonfiction team,
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they need a lot of fiction because it takes us out of our work,
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braining and just the energy to see that there are new people out there
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that have books in them and they want to contribute. And it's not hard
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for me to take pitches because if God's put a book on someone's heart,
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do it. In today's world, if we can't do it, I can't
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offer false hope that it would pass our standards. Probably not, but we
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might find the next big thing. You know, I'm not ever going to
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eliminate that possibility. But for today's writers, if God's given them a message,
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there's so many ways to publish. So I appreciate that writer kan has
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teaches gives them the options, the self publishing, the small independent publishers,
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because in our world today, because I think due to the technology, if
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you have a book, there's no reason not to publish. You just have
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to find what lane you're going to publish it, right right, I really
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appreciate that kind of encouragement for our aspiring authors. I love that. Oh
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absolutely, So what are what are publishers looking for these days? You have
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something in mind? We're always looking for a fresh, unique concept. We're
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always looking for a fresh, unique voice. You know, we'll get something
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in and we do passion projects sometimes where we'll plead with our publisher. You
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know, I believe in this book, I really want to work. Let's
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grow this person. So that does happen nice infrequently, but it does.
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And I would say, yeah, if there's it's difficult to find. There's
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nothing new under the sun, so to find a fresh concept with a fresh
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voice is no small thing. You mentioned agents a minute ago, and I
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think that most of your pitches come from can you just walk us through,
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because I think there are some people who might be interested. How do you
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pitch a book to Thomas Nelson? Get a good agent who works and there
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I can't recommend agents. That's okay, sure, but I always encourage a
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perspective author to look at people that have published with us, that they like,
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that are in their lane, that connect with them, and look on
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the copyright page. Most of the time there's an agency, there's a little
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blurb that look and then reach out to that agent that there's also lists of
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Christian agents who can go to and if someone else do the legwork, they
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can find a list of what authors does this agent work with? Does that
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sound like I would be a good fit for them, because that is another
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thing. Jump agents are very busy and a lot of the good agents aren't
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taking your people so right, but numerous good agents will be at Wryter con.
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See I just did it again again. But you're right. I know
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some of the agents that you have, and absolutely some of those we work
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with. Well, maybe we can see the two of you together and the
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agents can just point to you or you can point to them. That's the
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way it would work, right. I have to be very careful there,
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but yes, but they will be sharing who they work with, right,
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The agents can so they could say we worked with her coolns So that would
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work. But I'm very excited and I'm excited to visit with the attendees who
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it's all it's always fun. I agree. Well, that was really good
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advice. I think I appreciate that. And you've been at Thomas Nelson since
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twenty eleven, is that about right? That's about right? A freelance for
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about fifteen years before that. For that, I joined a team that we're
26:25
already my friends. That the things it's a long story. I won't share
26:30
here. But when I agree to the job, I said, I would
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only do this if you promise it won't affect our friendship, because friends and
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relationships and in our business that's they're really important, and they're and personally they're
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very precious to me. So I love that. Well, what are what
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are some of the biggest changes that you've seen there since you've started working there.
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Well, I mentioned the the freelance that that's a big change because that
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puts someone right in between direct relationship. Can ask for the freelancer we really
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want on a project, which we used to the oldest select, but we
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have ways we can list, you know, in order, when we're requesting
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three three different ones, and our vendors know we want that first one if
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we can get her. I would say, for me, I feel the
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weight of the large corporation more now than I did when you know, come
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in right before Harper bought. Okay, so I've been seeing those changes and
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aligning up with New York's the way New York does things because they operate differently
27:52
than we do. So that would probably be the biggest change right now.
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As anyone who's watching the news book publishing it's hard, it's tough. COVID
28:03
did a number our paper prices, printing prices, binding prices. I'm sure
28:08
both of you are aware of that I have just skyrocketed and that we've raised
28:15
our retail prices to help with that. But it does affect how we're buying
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books. We have to be way more cautious than ever. We're also not
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buying pain as much as we did because we've got to make money. So
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absolutely, now I want I want to encourage Now, this happens when I
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first came in. I probably happen in twenty twelve, maybe thirteen. But
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Bob Goff is an author that a lot of people will be familiar with.
28:48
I think love does everybody always and he came to us through Donald Miller Blue
28:56
Light Jazz, who which had blown the sky off. And so that does
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happen. If you have a good friend who's a famous author or a successful
29:06
author, you you know, use that relationship all right, absolutely, Okay,
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So I know you've worked on a lot of books. Do you have
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any favorites or I shouldn't use favorites because I'm sure all of your authors are
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your favorites. But what are there are a few books that stand out that
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you're proudest of. I love working with Bob Golf. I love working with
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Max Lucato, this was his newest book. I love working with Lisa turk
29:34
Hurst in the Proverbs thirty one. Those are some of the highlights. I
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love all of my authors, and sometimes the ones that I love are the
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ones that were the most difficult. The ones I just mentioned. The authors
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I just mentioned are not difficult. What the exception to track Bob down,
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who is very upfront that he's ADHD. That can be a challenge working with
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and working with difficult authors. Do you think I noticed in your bio you
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mentioned you have five children six grandchildren. Do you think maybe do you often
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feel like mom when you're trying to corral people and get them to do the
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right thing for you. Absolutely, And there is some of that mothering,
30:22
the nurturing that you have to do that makes complete sense to me. Does
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your do you do you have time for family? What's your work day?
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Like you, it sounds to me like you'd be very busy, but surely
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how do you how do you balance that? Well? When I first came
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in house, I was going to the office in house every day, and
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so those were my boundaries. I was homeschooling. I homeschooled all my children
30:48
as well. That's why I freelanced for fifteen years. But when I was
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a little bit more freed up, I was able to come in house.
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I actually get detailed with the birth of my first grandson, so that was
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their pitch to me. I was living in Oklahoma City and I was there
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for the birth of Rings Wilder and an editor left and they said, could
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you come? And my team asked me to kind of fill in and just
31:12
cover us at sure, and then they said, well, throw your hat
31:17
and the rain. No promises, but you seem to be enjoying this.
31:19
We love you. Let's see what might happen. And long story short,
31:26
they hired me so I had finished. My youngest was in college at the
31:32
time, so I was able to do that. Now I have eight grandchildren,
31:36
so I have to work up to eighty, but I can. I'm
31:41
fully remote, and that's for COVID. That did a good thing for me
31:45
because I'm able. I have so much flexibility. I can travel. I
31:49
can work up in Marquette, Michigan, or in Oklahoma City. Okay,
31:56
So you've been in this business a long time. You were freelance thing for
32:00
like fifteen years, You've been in the corporate world for twelve or so.
32:05
You got any survival trip tips for writers who might also like to have at
32:12
long and storied career as you have. Well, As a Christian, I
32:15
say, pray, be on your knees, pray a lot. And I
32:20
don't mean that rightly. I really mean that, especially depending on well I
32:27
think any God. My God is a creative God, so you're writers and
32:31
authors aren't right there in his line. And because of that, if you're
32:37
writing some of the material that my team deals with, there could be some
32:43
opposition and we have to encourage our authors to press through, keep going,
32:46
keep writing. And I would say for that fiction whatever, I think,
32:54
you're living in God's creativity. So I really do Prayer is huge, and
33:01
I do think I'm not an very organized person. I work and to work
33:07
more whenever the spirit moves me when, and I mean whenever, I you
33:13
know, the creativity comes. So I would say everyone needs to find their
33:19
own rhythm. But to absolutely, if you have a family and are blessed
33:24
with that, don't sacrifice that you know that has to come be put priority
33:31
and then the other will follow. I love it's my children are proud of
33:37
what I do, and that means more to me than anything. That's possibly
33:42
more than my paycheck, but I'm not sure. Very nice competition. Yeah,
33:47
a lovely answer, Janine. Thank you so much for being on the
33:52
podcast. Really enjoy to have you here. Thank you for the invitation,
33:55
Bill, and I love meeting you, Laura, and I'll see you.
34:00
I look forward to meet my person. Yes, just a few weeks away.
34:02
Yeah, well you see what I did. I got Writer Kana.
34:07
We just can't say it. It's going to be such a party though.
34:10
I'm really looking forward to it. Great, We'll see you then, thank
34:15
you, Okay, bye bye. I know I've talked about Writer Khan a
34:23
lot, so let me also mention for those of you who may be within
34:30
range of Oklahoma City that on September fourth, Monday, which is the actual
34:35
Labor Day, we're holding Reader Khan, and Reader Khan is completely free and
34:40
open to the public. You'll have a chance to hear many authors talk about
34:45
the work and autograph books, including our headliners Lisa Gardner and Tuska Lee,
34:52
plus so much fun stuff. In addition to all the author panels and autographing
34:57
and book sales. We're gonna have a book theme costume contest. You can
35:00
come as your favorite Harry Potter Jesse. I'm not even gonna guess what's her
35:07
go to cosplay costume? God, I mean Sherlock Holmes is kind of the
35:10
easiest. Yeah, I got that one and all that. I could do
35:15
the four fourth Doctor. But what's your favorite? Oh Man, that one's
35:21
hard, like literary literary cosplay one. That one's gonna take me a moment,
35:24
because all right, I think on it. There'll be a contest,
35:28
contest, costume contest, there'll be a mystery to solve, puzzles, a
35:31
spelling be jeopardy. Did I mention food trucks? I think I said that
35:37
last time, but I'm really excited about the food trucks and rescue animals Spot.
35:44
You could come home with a friend for Spot Jesse. I'm just saying
35:46
so many chances. Yeah, by books, get a monographed and meet some
35:52
of your favorite authors. And did I say this? It's free? So
35:57
come join us for reader Con. If you want more information about this,
36:00
go to our website, which is writercon dot com. Then click on the
36:05
button at the top that says reader com. The website is writercon dot com
36:09
w R I T E r c O N dot c O M. All
36:15
right until next time. Keep writing and remember it cannot fail if you're used
36:22
to quit and see you next time.