Latest / The Price of Music / Steve & Stu answer listener's questions: Why do ticket prices vary so much at the same venue? Why are some songwriter credits missing on streaming platforms (and do they still get paid)?

Transcript

Steve & Stu answer listener's questions: Why do ticket prices vary so much at the same venue? Why are some songwriter credits missing on streaming platforms (and do they still get paid)? · The Price of Music

• 0:03
  Hello and welcome to The Price of Music, brought to you by
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  Music Ally, the show that's fascinated by all the fun and
• 0:08
  games and finances of the music world as explained each week by
• 0:12
  me, Steve Lamac and him, Stuart Dredge.
• 0:14
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  biz and how it all works and how the figures stack up, here we
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  are twice this week. I'll explain more later on.
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  are interesting, but we're going to hold over till next week
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  So this is the point where, well, if you have any questions
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• 0:51
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  into the post bag and try and answer some of your enquiries.
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  I think this one's for you, Stuart.
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  This first one, this is from Richard Engler who says, hey,
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  Steven Stewart, I often check the credits section on tracks.
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  A large percentage have either no or incomplete information.
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  When you look at the credits on Spotify, does this mean that the
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  credits aren't logged on Spotify system?
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  And if so, then where does the where do the royalties go?
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  I've seen it on covers numerous times.
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  So a large amount of potential revenue either stays with
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  Spotify or is distributed to the wrong people.
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  Is that what happens? Does the money go to the black
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  box like it does with some royalty distribution?
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  I think this is one of those questions where when there's
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  probably a quick answer, but there's probably a much more in
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  depth answer which has a dozen different layers to it.
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  But thank you, Richard. If the credits are missed off,
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  if they're, if they're not, the songwriters aren't listed
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  beneath the track on Spotify. What happens then, if we take it
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  point by point? If there is a large percentage
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  of songs that have no or incomplete information, does
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  this mean it's not logged on Spotify's system?
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  And in which case do people not get paid?
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  Yeah, so this is it's got to the heart of one of the big, big
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  problems for the music industry. It's bigger than Spotify, you
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  know, only one platform. It's a long time industry issue.
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  This is about metadata, which is a word.
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  If you go to music industry conferences, you'll hear this a
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  lot. We've got to sort out our
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  metadata problems. So essentially, yes, to go back
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  to start, at the beginning, when a track's uploaded to Spotify,
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  it's the person who uploads it. So that's either a label or
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  distributor who gives Spotify the credits info.
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  So it's up to them. So music publishers don't get,
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  don't upload songs to Spotify, songwriters don't.
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  So it's really up to whoever's uploaded the track.
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  And so in the case of a label, they should put the publisher in
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  and songwriters, if it's a distributor, it's down to the
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  the artist who's using a distributor to put it on.
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  And like you say, often I don't, I mean, I've seen I've seen
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  covers like the most famous Beatles and Bob Dylan tracks
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  where they haven't put the songwriter credits in.
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  If you look at the credits on spot, if they think this is
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  ridiculous, it's obviously a cover of that famous Beatles
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  song. How can Spotify not know?
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  But all it's showing us is what's been uploaded with the
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  data. So the problem here, and I will
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  get to what happens. The problem here is, is it's
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  about matching songs so that the compositions to recordings if
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  that data hasn't been provided. So they're correct.
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  The money Spotify has the money, it wants to pay the money out.
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  So there's no kind of sense of streaming services holding on to
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  the cash here. But they don't know who's paid
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  to. And they've been historically
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  been lawsuits about this kind of thing about, you know, all the
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  music on Spotify that no one knew who the publisher was.
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  So it varies. So in the in the US for example
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  is a good body cuts up called the Mechanical licensing
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  Collective, the MLC and Spotify and the other streaming services
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  transferred all there. And the phrase here is
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  historical unmatched royalties. So that is money that should
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  have gone to publishers, but they haven't been matched to the
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  right the the recordings. And it was about just under $400
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  million a few years ago. This was this historical one
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  that hadn't been paid out. And this organization started
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  trying to match them. And you can actually go to the
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  MLCS website and if you search for historical match, you can
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  see exactly how much every service is paid.
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  So Apple paid about $148 million.
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  Spotify had $146 million. That's how much money they had
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  that they just haven't been able to pay out.
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  So that's that that in the US, that's what happens.
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  They've got this, they've tried to sort this out by setting up a
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  body. It's also a part of the work
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  that collecting societies do, trying to match recordings to
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  works to songs to get somewhere. And this is where they, you,
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  you, you mentioned the phrase black box and the question, this
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  is where you hear this phrase black box royalties, which is
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  potentially royalties. We don't know who to pay them
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  to. And in the collecting societies
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  world, sometimes those are then after a certain period of time,
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  whether it's like 2-3 years, they'll be shared out based on
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  market share often. So if publisher X has 10% of the
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  publishing market, they'll get 10% of that black box.
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  And the controversy around that is, well, if a publisher's got
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  that much of the market, it might, it probably has all this
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  data, it's more likely to be his data sorted than an independent
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  publisher or songwriter. So the argument is maybe a lot
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  more of these black box royalties are for independent
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  publishers and songwriters than the big guys, but the big guys
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  might be getting that money. So if you hear people arguing
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  about the black box, that's often what they're arguing about
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  is whether it's fair to how do you divide it up?
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  So in a sense, yeah, this this money just sits there.
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  Whether this money is sitting within Spotify or whether it's
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  within intellectual society, it sits there unable to be paid out
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  until someone either works out OK, this song relates to that
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  recording. So we can pay these many
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  royalties out to those publishers or they they just get
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  to a certain time and they pay it out based on market share,
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  for example. But this is one of the areas
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  actually we talk about AIA lot in a negative context, don't we,
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  about AI making music. But the people we had, we had a
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  Musical Eye publishing summit recently and one that there was
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  a big panel on AI and people were saying, actually AI can be
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  helpful here. AI technologies can help us scan
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  all the data we get from a streaming service and try and
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  match works to songs, to recordings.
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  So there's a bunch of companies now saying, well, maybe we can
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  use AI for this to make to kind of get to the heart of who wrote
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  what song and to pay them. So we could see an improvement.
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  We could see actually that that kind of technology helping
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  Spotify to pay out that money. Which I mean, can you, I
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  presume, can you, if you find that one of your songs has been
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  uploaded by the distributor but the credits have failed to
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  appear, can can you rectify that situation or do you have to take
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  it down and put it back up again?
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  And I think so if you're if you're the artist, you can, you
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  can. Well, it depends on how your
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  distributor works. But yeah, you would then say to
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  you that this is the correct, this is the matter that's
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  missing. Can you re upload it on
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  Spotify's website? There's actually a whole service
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  they have called Spotify for publishing.
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  So publishers can have an account with Spotify, which
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  includes the ability to send their data to the company and
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  say these are the works we represent.
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  Because that's the other thing. It's one thing knowing who a
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  song, who wrote a song, but you also need to know well what
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  publisher they signed to. And and also important is the
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  splits. So say four people have written
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  a song to pay out that money, a streaming service needs to know
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  well that songwriter has 40%, that songwriter gets 20%.
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  And that is another minefield of again, at this conference we
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  had, there was a big discussion about how that data sometimes
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  isn't there, Like people might write a song in a room together
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  and it gets released, but they haven't agreed who gets 40%, Who
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  gets 20%? There was actually a talk
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  someone wants to wait. It wasn't about, it was about
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  YouTube royalties. This guy from a company called
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  Orpheum, which collects YouTube royalties from positions.
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  He said as much as 30 to 40% of the publishing royalties can get
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  stuck in the system. So like 10s of millions of
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  dollars because the splits for a song don't add up.
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  Like they've been sold. Oh, so and so's got 40%, So and
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  so's got 30%. So and so's got 40%.
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  And that's 110. And in that case, if you're
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  YouTube, you go, well, I don't know who to pay here.
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  This, this is not right. So there's two, yeah, two
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  strands of discussion here. So one strand is, OK, how do we
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  how do we match songs to recordings and pay the money out
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  to the right people? And the other is actually people
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  talking to songwriters and artists from the very first
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  moment they're writing a song to think about this and to say,
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  right, think about your metadata, think about how the
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  splits are, write it down. Make sure that whenever you,
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  whatever happens with this song, that that the, the information
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  goes with it on who wrote it and who their publishers are.
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  And there's a lot of activity going on around that.
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  Because that's, that's the other kind of maybe the gap is that if
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  you're a musician, you're kind of writing a song on being
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  creative. You don't necessarily want to
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  sit down with a notepad and, and thrash out who owns what share
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  of it. But it turns out if you do do
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  that, that that that's like to stop you being in a situation
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  where you're not getting paid for it later on because someone
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  like YouTube or Spotify doesn't know who to pay.
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  Yeah, I mean, I'm surprised, having thought about it and
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  thinking about it now. Now you've explained it, that
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  there aren't any, you know, there aren't more historical
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  lawsuits going on between songwriters who, you know, have
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  gone back and said, no, actually, you know, I'm thinking
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  of somebody like the police or somebody.
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  No, no, I wrote actually, I wrote 40% of message in a bottle
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  or actually thinking about it, I wrote 90% of Can't stand losing
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  your wife or whatever it is. Do you see what I mean?
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  I mean, this is so that's a minefield.
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  I mean, there's enough, I mean, there are enough court cases
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  anyway amongst musicians on there who say, oh, actually
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  that's my song and I should get paid for this.
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  But yeah, given the complications of this now.
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  But also, I mean, if you think we talk a lot about catalogues
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  being sold, don't we? So a songwriter, so when a song
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  is uploaded or a recording is uploaded to Spotify, this, this
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  one of the songwriters may be signed to a certain publisher or
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  may have, you know, 10 years, 5-10 years later, those rights
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  may be run by a different publisher or they may have sold
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  them to an investment company or so again, it's a, it's a really,
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  it's just a logistical minefield of complexity.
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  And so in a sense the the streaming services are rarely
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  the villains here because they want to pay that money out.
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  There's really no like if they're holding onto it, it's
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  just in an account being held onto, they're not doing it.
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  They're not kind of using it. They want to pay it out, but
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  they don't want to pay it out to the wrong people.
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  And that's the other thing I think is that I saw a session
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  recently, a conference, and they were talking about one of the
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  ways people try and commit fraud in music is by saying, well,
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  those royalties are mine. There's a famous case on YouTube
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  a couple of years ago where a bunch of Latin American artists
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  think, including Bad Bunny or his songwriters, like their
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  royalties have been claimed by someone else who said, yeah, we,
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  we could. So there's a lot of scope for
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  kind of mistakes and problems. Yeah.
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  When when you see, when you. Yeah.
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  This is why you might go spot by and say who wrote, who wrote
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  this song Knocking on Heaven's Door?
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  Oh, they don't know. Well, I do, But in that case it
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  would be the person who uploaded it who didn't include that.
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  Information OK, thank you very much, Richard.
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  This is from Matt in Sudbury, just down the road from where I
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  grew up. I used to go, Matt, I used to go
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  to, not there anymore, but there used to be an outdoor swimming
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  pool in Sudbury which I used to go to in the 70s.
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  Although more importantly, I bought my copy of Identity, the
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  X-ray spec single at a record shop in Sudbury.
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  Anyway. Hi Stephen Stewart, you've
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  spoken a lot about how touring costs for artists have increased
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  and the effect this is having on ticket prices.
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  But I was wondering why ticket prices can vary so much at the
• 12:04
  same venue when costs are presumably the same?
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  Maximo Park and Suede for instance have both put put tours
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  on sale today. Both bands are playing at
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  Cambridge Corn Exchange, lovely venue next February, but a
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  standing ticket for Maximo Park is £36.50 and for Suede it's
• 12:24
  £45.50. So they're both five piece bands
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  so presumably we'll have similar costs to put the tour on, but
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  also a quick Google says that the venue has a capacity of
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  1400. So doing the maths says Matt.
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  If they sell out that means Suede will be making an extra
• 12:43
  £12,600 that night. No criticism to either band as
• 12:49
  Matt I'm a fan of both and you guaranteed a great show from
• 12:52
  both of them, but I'd love to have your thoughts on where the
• 12:55
  extra 12 grand a night is going. Thank you, Matt in Sudbury.
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  I mean, I did think of emailing Dids Dids Dids Hammond, which is
• 13:05
  a name you might remember. Dids was a member of Cooper
• 13:07
  Temple clause and then he was in dirty, dirty pretty things with
• 13:12
  Carl Barat. But he's now one of Suede's Co
• 13:15
  managers. So put a final of this.
• 13:18
  Where's where's the extra 12 K going?
• 13:20
  But might have been construed as being a bit rude anyway, I mean,
• 13:23
  to be honest. So I think it's, I mean, it's
• 13:25
  not this specific examples, although we'll get to those in a
• 13:27
  second, but I'm going to try and explain it, Matt, in slightly
• 13:32
  broader terms. And I will say this, I mean,
• 13:35
  prepare for this answer to be more complicated than you may
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  have thought because simply because there are so many
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  factors behind how ticket prices are set.
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  And they're all quite interlinked to the point where
• 13:50
  when I was drafting an answer for this, I found myself going
• 13:52
  round and round in circles. But we'll give it a go.
• 13:55
  So well, let's start with the two gigs you mentioned.
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  So think about all the variables for a start.
• 14:01
  Amongst them, how much will these are the questions that
• 14:05
  people are asking themselves. That goes in the process of
• 14:08
  where do we, where do we set the ticket price?
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  How much will an audience pay to see the bands, which I mean,
• 14:15
  which is to say, what are they? What are they worth?
• 14:17
  What's the market right for them?
• 14:19
  So think about that. That's one question.
• 14:22
  What where's the what's the biting points?
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  Where, where your ticket price makes as much money as you can,
• 14:29
  while at the same time you're still confident that you will
• 14:33
  sell out the gig. That's, that's the balancing act
• 14:36
  that you have to get rights, which I mean, will also take
• 14:40
  into account, you know, how much money the bands are looking to
• 14:43
  make themselves and what the, what do they think they're
• 14:47
  worth? As well as a band might think,
• 14:49
  well, we must be, if they're worth £30, surely we're better
• 14:52
  than them. We should be paying, we should
• 14:55
  be charging 40 lbs. But yes, think about, think
• 14:59
  about where the, where the price point, the perfect price point
• 15:03
  is that's in the conversation. And what's the paycheck for the
• 15:07
  band going to be at the end of a tour.
• 15:11
  So they will then have a conversation.
• 15:14
  And when I say they, there'll be a conversation between the
• 15:17
  manager of the band and the agent and the promoter who will
• 15:21
  all have, you know, views on what the ticket price should be.
• 15:25
  While obviously the same time the manager will be saying, you
• 15:27
  know, well, it's it's going to cost us this much to do the gig.
• 15:32
  And that's where you start taking a whole nother raft of
• 15:35
  variables because just different bands will have different size
• 15:41
  cruise, for a start. Maximo Park might be, you know,
• 15:45
  going around with three people. Suede might have 5.
• 15:48
  They'll be spending different amounts of money on the
• 15:51
  production of the show. I mean, you know, I'm not saying
• 15:53
  Suede or Maximo Park will have confetti cannons or pyros, but,
• 15:57
  you know, which obviously would add to the bill.
• 15:59
  But certainly, as I say, Suede might have a bigger crew.
• 16:03
  Suede might want to travel in a nicer, more expensive tour bus,
• 16:08
  or one of the bands might be in a Premier Inn, one of them's in
• 16:12
  the Malmaison. You kind of don't know.
• 16:14
  But it's also it's all that sort sort of stuff that will affect
• 16:18
  the cost to the band of going on tour.
• 16:21
  And so when it comes to crew, are you going to take a guitar
• 16:23
  tech and a drum tech? Are you going to have a sound
• 16:27
  man and a lighting person or just the sound man?
• 16:30
  Are you, are you happy to let the in house lighting guy or
• 16:34
  person do do the lights for you and shave a little bit off your
• 16:38
  budget? How many people are on that tour
• 16:40
  and if and if you know, certainly the bottom level, if
• 16:43
  your tour manager can drive and also double up as guitar tech,
• 16:46
  you can save some money because that's one less person who's,
• 16:51
  you know, who's part of the the bill that you've got to pay.
• 16:55
  So when you hear stories, particularly as bands starting
• 16:59
  out of managers going out on tour with their bands, it's not
• 17:02
  just to make sure that they're behaving themselves.
• 17:04
  It's probably because the manager of the band is doing
• 17:06
  some of the driving so they don't have to pay a driver.
• 17:09
  So that's sort of cost. How how am I doing so far?
• 17:12
  You're with me so far, Stuart. I was with you until I got
• 17:15
  distracted by thinking of sueding the Premier Inn.
• 17:17
  But yes, that all makes sense so far, yeah.
• 17:21
  So, so these are all the variables.
• 17:23
  So there's so many different costs variables when it comes to
• 17:27
  totting up how much it's going to cost a band to go on tour,
• 17:31
  right. So as mentioned conversation
• 17:33
  then so the, the, the manager and the agents, you know, will
• 17:38
  have, they'll have an idea of what the costs are going to be,
• 17:41
  what the ambition for the tour is, I guess.
• 17:45
  And then they sort of get discussed at a meeting of the
• 17:49
  main players, the promoter, the agent and the band manager
• 17:53
  possibly for this, I contacted our secret agents, who, I mean,
• 17:59
  for the uninitiated, our, our secret agent is a very
• 18:03
  experienced live agent who has worked with a lot of bands, big
• 18:06
  and small. So he's well placed to, to give
• 18:09
  us information on this. But they said when it comes to
• 18:13
  selling the ticket price and I'll, I'll, I'll quote them.
• 18:16
  There are many ways to do this but mainly it's decided between
• 18:20
  all parties. Band, agent, promoter.
• 18:22
  When discussing the offer, obviously you will have an idea
• 18:26
  as an agent what is needed to pay for the band to go on tour
• 18:30
  with all their associated costs. So crew, transport,
• 18:34
  accommodation etc. But it's obviously not just the
• 18:37
  band and their costs that needs to be covered by the ticket
• 18:41
  income, it will be all the aspects of the show.
• 18:45
  So to add to what you have to pay the band out of the ticket
• 18:49
  price to cover their costs. You also have to take into
• 18:52
  account, particularly if you're an outside promoter, then you
• 18:56
  hire Pam, lights, brackets, engineers, relevant staff,
• 19:02
  insurance, you've got to pay for the insurance.
• 19:05
  There'll be the dressing room, riders, catering and the
• 19:09
  marketing of the gigs. So think about all that as a
• 19:13
  till roll, as I say. I mean if you're an in house
• 19:16
  promoter, you don't have to pay some of those costs.
• 19:18
  But if you're an outside promoter, if you're Live Nation
• 19:20
  or Kilimanjaro, AEG or whoever it is, then you obviously you'll
• 19:23
  need to rent the venue as a starting point.
• 19:27
  But those, those are, those are the costs.
• 19:30
  In fact, our inside source went on to say the bigger the shows,
• 19:35
  the bigger the production costs, hence the higher ticket prices.
• 19:38
  Still with us? You're now you've now got this
• 19:44
  glazed look of oh crikey, how much of this is there?
• 19:49
  Yeah, it's detailed, but it's all very logical.
• 19:51
  Yeah, I mean, it's that makes sense to.
• 19:54
  Me carry on bigger gigs, obviously more money to be made
• 19:56
  but also more risk to be taken by the promoter.
• 20:01
  You have to take that into account and again, This is why
• 20:03
  it's so important to get the ticket price right.
• 20:07
  It's got to cover all the costs. But you know, one wrong move,
• 20:11
  particularly on a big arena gig and you are in so much trouble
• 20:16
  because you know, if an artist gets over ambitious or
• 20:19
  overconfident and attempts to play a venue that's too big for
• 20:21
  them, well, the venue is the right size but the ticket price
• 20:24
  is too high for the fans. Then you don't sell out.
• 20:27
  And of course then the promoters in a world of pain.
• 20:29
  But anyway, coming back, Matt, to your example back at the Corn
• 20:33
  Exchange in Cambridge. And in answer to the question,
• 20:36
  so it might not be that Suede have walked away with 12 grand
• 20:40
  more. It might be that their tour
• 20:43
  costs are 12 grand more or that after, you know, or that their
• 20:48
  fee after costs is possibly more than Maximo Park will be
• 20:52
  guessing, particularly given Suede's current resurgence.
• 20:55
  They're probably worth a fair few Bob now, I guess in a in a
• 20:58
  fee. I know.
• 21:00
  But the the one thing I did go and have a look, although it's
• 21:04
  obviously a a higher priced ticket, the suede geeks already
• 21:08
  sold out while I think there are still tickets left for Maximo
• 21:11
  Park. So yeah, a lot of variable costs
• 21:14
  to be taken into account. And I mean, as much as I'd like
• 21:18
  to to go into other direct comparisons between ticket
• 21:21
  prices, every tour is different. I think that's the thing, like
• 21:25
  away from this man, every tour is different, will cost a
• 21:28
  different amount of money to put on.
• 21:31
  Having said that, you know, you do get to a point where it's the
• 21:35
  certain bands I think playing similar size venues, ticket
• 21:40
  prices sort of roughly start to match.
• 21:43
  So if you look at Maximo Park, their ticket price in London is,
• 21:47
  is £41.00. I think in London they're doing
• 21:50
  Brixton and our secret agent said 41 lbs.
• 21:54
  That's a, that's pretty much a standard ticket price for
• 21:57
  Brixton Academy. For comparison, I think Black
• 22:02
  Star standing tickets, 54 everything, everything is also
• 22:06
  41 lbs. A pendulum in the seats, that's
• 22:10
  49. Newton Faulkner standing
• 22:13
  slightly cheaper, 38 lbs. So it's, it's a complicated kind
• 22:18
  of equation this, but you will find tickets sort of finding a
• 22:22
  finding a level, which I guess is partly down to audience
• 22:26
  expectation really, because you kind of look around and go,
• 22:29
  yeah, that's probably a £40 ticket.
• 22:31
  Because the other time I went to Brixton, that was a £40 ticket.
• 22:35
  And you're only going to you're going to set up notice if your
• 22:38
  favorite band is suddenly charging somebody 5 lbs when
• 22:41
  everyone else is charging £40. But that's this is the equation.
• 22:45
  How much can we charge minus how much we need to spend plus how
• 22:51
  much do we want to earn equals ticket price.
• 22:56
  There you have it. Any live music touring
• 22:58
  professionals who would who who have anything you'd like to add
• 23:02
  to this. Or indeed a much better way of
• 23:04
  explaining this than I possibly have just done.
• 23:07
  I think that was perfect. Great, get in touch.
• 23:09
  Does it make sense? Does that make sense to you?
• 23:11
  It does. And I think like you say, it's a
• 23:13
  because we've talked something about bands struggling and it
• 23:15
  comes down to some of those costs you can't control.
• 23:18
  Like you can control how much pyro you have or don't have, but
• 23:21
  you can't control the cost of petrol or Jones and that.
• 23:23
  So it makes sense then, because then if your costs only shoot
• 23:27
  up, but you've already set the ticket price, you're, you're in
• 23:30
  trouble, aren't you? Even if you have sold out a
• 23:32
  venue, suddenly your costs can increase.
• 23:34
  Well, yeah, well, if you've if you've organised your your yeah,
• 23:37
  because you all have agreed a fee, won't you?
• 23:40
  As the as the band, the agent will have gone and negotiated on
• 23:43
  your behalf, your fee. And that's your fee.
• 23:46
  But your fee, yes, will have to cover costs of yeah, imagine
• 23:50
  arriving in town where there's a big event and you haven't
• 23:52
  realised that your gig is the same weekend as an international
• 23:55
  football match and you can't buy a hotel room for less than 100
• 23:59
  lbs when it should have cost you 50.
• 24:01
  Yeah, that's, that's one of the problems.
• 24:03
  But you will, you'll have your fee.
• 24:05
  There'll be all the cost to, you know, obviously everyone else
• 24:08
  who's, you know, putting the gig on right down to, as our agent
• 24:12
  said, you know, marketing and everything.
• 24:14
  So all this has to come out of a ticket price.
• 24:16
  It's amazing how much, how many different places your ticket
• 24:21
  money that you have paid, the money you have spent on that
• 24:24
  ticket, how many different places that money will will end
• 24:27
  up eventually. I think that's, that's the
• 24:29
  point. But it's, yeah, it's it's a,
• 24:34
  it's slightly more complicated than I thought it was going to
• 24:37
  be when I saw that question originally.
• 24:39
  mattbutthankyouverymuchpriceofmusicpodcast@gmail.com is the e-mail address for your
• 24:50
  own questions because I've banged on quite a long time with
• 24:54
  that one. I don't think we're going to get
• 24:55
  through another one in this episode, but we will hold onto
• 24:59
  the enquiries we've had so far and we'll do another one of
• 25:02
  these sooner rather than later. So do keep your questions
• 25:06
  coming. As I say, it's the price of
• 25:08
  music. podcasts@gmail.com. And can I just mention here that
• 25:13
  we have a bonus episode arriving for you later in the week, which
• 25:19
  will be my interview with Lord Kevin Brennan, who is leading
• 25:25
  the fan LED review into live and electronic music, collecting the
• 25:31
  thoughts of music fans in a survey, the results of which
• 25:35
  will then be presented to government.
• 25:38
  It's an amazing opportunity for for us all to participate and
• 25:44
  try to shape the discussions around music at government
• 25:49
  level. We'll talk more about that on I
• 25:53
  think it will be available on Friday.
• 25:54
  That episode, although Patreon superfans, you can hear it right
• 25:59
  now wherever you listen to our extra bit of the show.
• 26:03
  So where the locking would usually be.
• 26:05
  You can listen to that Kevin Brennan interview already,
• 26:08
  right? Thank you very much for
• 26:10
  listening this week. We're here every Wednesday.
• 26:13
  As I always say, if you like what we're trying to do, please
• 26:16
  tell your friends or colleagues, leave us a review online or pick
• 26:19
  us up on your socials. Alternatively, to become a super
• 26:23
  fan and support the show with a few Bob, you'll find details of
• 26:27
  how you can sign up at patreon.com/the Price of Music.
• 26:31
  Thank you once again for your time.
• 26:33
  Nice to see you Stuart. See you next week.
• 26:35
  Look after yourselves everyone. Bye for now.