Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Episode 1, Season 1: Should I Stay or Should I Go?

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Episode 1, Season 1: Should I Stay or Should I Go? · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Welcome We Love Doc podcast. I'm your co host Raina
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Butcher here with our host, doctor Sarah Hensley. Hey, doctor Hinsley, Hey,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: what's going on? Not a lot?
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm doctor Sarah Hensley. For those of you who don't know,
• 0:21
  Speaker 2: I've been studying the science of attachment and attraction for
• 0:24
  Speaker 2: over fifteen years. I'm a specialized social psychologist who is
• 0:28
  Speaker 2: here to answer all your burning relationship questions.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: So that actually brings up the topic that we want
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: to discuss today. And just you know, from working together,
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: I know that this is something that you see a
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: lot in your practice, and that burning question is should
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: I stay or should I go?
• 0:47
  Speaker 2: For sure?
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: So for all your followers out there, let's discuss this.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: You know, what are your biggest points in terms of,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: you know, if you decide to stay or yeah, if
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: you decide to go.
• 1:01
  Speaker 2: Right, that's a really tough one. Obviously, there's a lot
• 1:04
  Speaker 2: to consider and each relationship is very unique. But generally
• 1:08
  Speaker 2: what I see is somebody comes into my practice and
• 1:11
  Speaker 2: they're like step between a rock and a hard place.
• 1:14
  Speaker 2: The rock is their spouse who is not behaving in
• 1:19
  Speaker 2: the way that is, you know, they want to behave
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: and there's lots of problems in the relationship. They've tried
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: to fix the problems, they're not getting anywhere, and they're
• 1:29
  Speaker 2: like beating their head against the wall trying to get
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: some movement in a positive direction and they can't get anywhere.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: And then the hard place is divorce land, right, which
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: is scary obviously, and they don't know what's on the
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: other side of divorce land, and they know it's going
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: to be hard, and so what do you do? And
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: a lot of obviously, these couples have kids, they have finances,
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: they're attached, they built lives together. It is not an
• 1:54
  Speaker 2: easy decision. I've been there. It's not an easy decision.
• 1:57
  Speaker 2: But there are some factors to consider. For sure. My
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: two non negotiables, like, if this is happening in your marriage,
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: you need to get the heck out of there is
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: abuse physical, verbal, mental, emotional, sexual, financial, I don't care.
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: If it's abuse, you lose, you go. You have to go,
• 2:16
  Speaker 2: because it generally does not get better.
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: Ever, and with your experience personal and within your practice,
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, what does that sometimes look like?
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: You know?
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: Because sometimes people I think have a hard time actually
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: seeing the fact that it is abuse, right, recognizing that
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: it is abuse, especially when it comes to emotional abuse,
• 2:34
  Speaker 1: because physical of course is out there absolutely, but emotional
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: and financial abuse, you know, give us some examples of
• 2:41
  Speaker 1: what that that looks like.
• 2:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, So emotional abuse can be somebody who has extreme defensiveness.
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: So you come to them with, you know, a need
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: that you have or something that's not going well in
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: the relationship and you just want to have a civilized,
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: respectful conversation about it, and they get extremely defensive. They
• 2:59
  Speaker 2: may do what's called a defend attack, reverse victim and offender,
• 3:03
  Speaker 2: so they blame shift it back onto you, saying you're
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: the problem, without taking any accountability for what you brought
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: up as the issue inside of the relationship. They may
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: do character attacks. They may get very verbally aggressive and
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: yell and curse or you know, slam doors. There may
• 3:22
  Speaker 2: be physical aggression obviously as a result of that. So
• 3:27
  Speaker 2: emotional and verbal abuse usually are tied very closely together.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: Emotional abuse often centers around control and manipulation, whether it's
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: control of the conversation and manipulation of the conversation or
• 3:40
  Speaker 2: control of larger situations within the relationship.
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: So psychologically speaking, why do you think that people still
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: choose to stay even when these circumstances are at hand.
• 3:52
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, they're trauma bonded. They're one hundred percent trauma bonded.
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: Because trauma bonding has a very prediction to bull cycle,
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: which is, you know, there's the sort of love bombing
• 4:05
  Speaker 2: phase or the phase where you get pulled in. Then
• 4:08
  Speaker 2: there's devaluation where there's all sorts of abuse, and then
• 4:12
  Speaker 2: there's usually a discard phase. And that doesn't always look
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: like you know that the partner is walking away from
• 4:18
  Speaker 2: the relationship. It could be a discard is something like
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: getting locked out of your bedroom. I had a client
• 4:22
  Speaker 2: yesterday just tell me that her husband locks her out
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: of the bedroom all the time when he's mad at her.
• 4:26
  Speaker 2: That's a discard. That's saying, you know, I don't want
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: anything to do with you right now. It's a very manipulative, unhealthy,
• 4:32
  Speaker 2: abusive behavior. And there's a cycle to that, and that
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: cycle always has intermittent reinforcement where sometimes you get your
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: needs met, which is usually during the love bombing phase,
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: and then other times those needs are pulled away or
• 4:45
  Speaker 2: there's even abuse involved. And so it's that up down, up, down,
• 4:49
  Speaker 2: up down, up down cycle and your brain chemistry gets
• 4:53
  Speaker 2: addicted to pumping out stress hormones and then pumping out
• 4:57
  Speaker 2: you know, love hormones like oxytocin and so tone and
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: dopamine when they come back and they love bomb you.
• 5:03
  Speaker 2: And so just when you get the strength to leave
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: and you start to do that, they hoover you back in.
• 5:08
  Speaker 2: There's actually a term called hoovering where they suck you
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: back in like a hoover vacuum cleaner. And it's so
• 5:16
  Speaker 2: hard to leave, and I know somebody who's never been
• 5:18
  Speaker 2: in it is like, how could it be hard to leave?
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: But the brain becomes addicted, just like a drug. I mean,
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: it's like being addicted to heroin. You can become addicted
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: to a person. And so then when you try to
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: break the trauma bond, because the only thing that breaks
• 5:33
  Speaker 2: it is no contact or at least very limited contact.
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: If you have kids, you have a stage of empowerment
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: where you feel really good about it, and then you
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: go through the withdrawal. And people never see the withdrawal coming,
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: and it can be this extreme missing of the person,
• 5:49
  Speaker 2: and you know, sadness and depression and anxiety because your
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: brain is addicted and it's withdrawing. It's a chemical reaction
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: and so.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: And we've both personally experienced this, and I can speak
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: from my personal experience that the only way, the only
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: way that's it that I was able to get away
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: was no contact for sure.
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: And we shared a child, yeah, for sure, and.
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: We still couldn't there was It was the only way. Yeah,
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: And I think that that, you know, it's it's difficult
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: of course for people who have children to be able
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: to do that, and we had to.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: We had to.
• 6:31
  Speaker 1: Navigate and navigate it in a way where you know,
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: we learned how to parallel parent instead of co parenting.
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh for sure.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: And when it's you know, somewhat worked, he still hates you. Yes,
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: it's true. Verb and yours probably would too if he was,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: if he was still alive.
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's not here unfortunately. Yeah, but uh yeah, it
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: was rough. We had to parallel parent, we had no
• 6:57
  Speaker 2: contact order. Gosh, but you know, oh it's crazy. Let's
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: go back to the trauma bond. I divorced the man legally.
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: This was in my very unhealed years. Okay, so yeah,
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: come a long way, very very unhealed years. I divorced
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: the man legally and then I went back to him.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: I remember.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: So that's how strong the trauma bond is. And the
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: thing of it is is it always gets worse when
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: you go back. Every single time you go back, it
• 7:21
  Speaker 2: gets worse.
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: And that's where the brain gets really tricky because I
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: know for me, and we've talked about this before, it
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: was always like, well, if we can just get through this,
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: then it'll be better. It'll be better, right, and if
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: we just get through this next crisis, it'll be better.
• 7:35
  Speaker 2: Right, which is total and complete toxic.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Hope, so toxic, which was another thing you know that
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: comes into play that we want to talk about. That's
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: this huge indicator of feeling like you know, well I
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: can stay if things will change, and you know, if
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: I just do this, then it's going to get better.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah. If I do a special dance and twist myself
• 7:55
  Speaker 2: into the right type of pretzel, right, then my partner
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: will be better and we'll all be fine. And you're right,
• 8:02
  Speaker 2: it is like, well, let's just get through the next crisis, right,
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: this fight that we had, or this betrayal or this
• 8:08
  Speaker 2: you know, bad behavior that's happening frequently, let's just correct
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: that and then we'll all be good.
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: No.
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: These are pathologies that are deep. These are either deeply
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: rooted attachment insecurities, or you have layers of things like narcissism,
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: orderline personality disorder or other mental health pathologies, maybe even
• 8:26
  Speaker 2: addictions rolled into the mix, and you got to let
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: that stuff go. You've got to get out of there.
• 8:33
  Speaker 2: It's never going to get better. Your nervous system is
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: being completely wrecked in the process. So those are extreme cases, right.
• 8:43
  Speaker 2: My other no go is infidelity and I actually there's
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: a I'm in a local mom's group and somebody posted
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: anonymously yesterday like I've been married for fifteen years to
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: my best friend. Never in a million years would have
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: thought he would have cheated on me. I came back
• 8:56
  Speaker 2: from a work trip, he admitted while I was gone,
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: he slept with his coworker. I don't know what to do,
• 9:01
  Speaker 2: and I just put on there, Hey, you know, send
• 9:03
  Speaker 2: me a private message. I'm a relationship coach. You know
• 9:05
  Speaker 2: I'll be happy to just, you know, weigh in and
• 9:07
  Speaker 2: give you my two cents about the situation, because I
• 9:10
  Speaker 2: know you're very very hurt right now and very very confused.
• 9:12
  Speaker 2: And so I chatted with her for a little bit,
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: and you know, turns out things haven't been you know,
• 9:19
  Speaker 2: so great. He's for sure an FA based on what
• 9:24
  Speaker 2: which is fearful avoidance. And if you guys don't understand attachment,
• 9:27
  Speaker 2: you know, definitely hit my social media on that. And
• 9:32
  Speaker 2: he's sabotaging. Oh my gosh, he's sabotaging.
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: In what way?
• 9:35
  Speaker 2: I mean?
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: Is he asking her to stay or is he gaslighting.
• 9:38
  Speaker 2: Or he's now at I don't know what I want?
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Okay, right, So which adds to her rejection right exactly.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: And so now she's in total anxious attachment mode. Right.
• 9:48
  Speaker 2: I don't know what her attachment style is. I didn't
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: assess it, but her behavior right now is very anxious,
• 9:53
  Speaker 2: which you know that would bring out anxious attachment in anyone, Yeah,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: for sure, And.
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: Especially with the rejection on top of the rejection, because
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: the betrayal itself is rejection.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: It off.
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: And then when you turn around and be like, well,
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I don't really know what I want.
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: I've not been happy for a long time, which kind
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: of took her somewhat by surprise. She didn't think it
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: was as bad as he was thinking it was. But
• 10:14
  Speaker 2: here's the thing. Infidelity is so deeply rooted in attachment,
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: and it is a repetitive behavior. I am sorry, I
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: am totally pro Rachel Green wants a cheater, always a cheater.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: Okay, yeah, the whole lesson that our mom taught us,
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: our whole lives wants a shooter, always a cheater. There's
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: some psychological science behind that.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Unfortunately, we did not learn that lesson very easily. We
• 10:36
  Speaker 2: without lots of personal experience. That's true, but I want
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: somebody else to learn it. Let me tell you. Let
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: me be the one to tell you. Once a cheater,
• 10:43
  Speaker 2: always a cheater. I am sorry.
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: And what is the psychological science behind it?
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: Oh? For sure? Well, it's rooted an attachment. So there's
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: reasons that the different attachment styles cheat. So the anxious,
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: preoccupied will cheat if their needs for love, affection, attention
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: aren't being met in the relationship, because to be alone
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: is to be abandoned. To be neglected is to be abandoned,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: and that abandonment wound is so painful they'll bandit it
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: with attention from someone else. The fearful avoidance sometimes cheats
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: out of spite because they feel like they've been heard
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: or betrayed inside of their relationship and they carry that
• 11:14
  Speaker 2: big betrayal wound, so it's like, well, if you don't
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: care about me, well I don't care about you either,
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: so I'm going to go yeah. Absolutely, And the dismissive avoidant,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: of course, always cheats to simply put a block in
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: between the intimacy between them and current partner because they're
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: subconscious wounds around intimacy and being close are so high,
• 11:31
  Speaker 2: and new partner there's no wounding and fears around intimacy
• 11:35
  Speaker 2: with that partner yet because there's not been any longevity
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: to create them yet. So they all oftentimes haven't been
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: vulnerable or emotionally intimate with current partner for years and years.
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: All of a sudden, new partner comes along. It's the
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: honeymoon phase. All their subconscious fears around intimacy aren't attached
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: to that new partner, so then they can open up
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: and be vulnerable. I mean, I've had couples come in
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: and the DASA I was able to tell this new person,
• 11:58
  Speaker 2: I just met all of these really deep things and
• 12:00
  Speaker 2: I've never shared with my wife, And I'm like, do
• 12:02
  Speaker 2: you understand it's because your fears around intimacy are attached
• 12:06
  Speaker 2: to your wife and the longevity of that relationship, and
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: so you think, oh, it's the person that I'm just
• 12:12
  Speaker 2: able to open up to this new person because it's
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: that person. It's different. No, it's just that there's not
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: been longevity yet, right, And as longevity occurs, those wounds
• 12:21
  Speaker 2: will it all surface and you'll repeat the pattern. Right.
• 12:24
  Speaker 2: And I saw a DA in my practice the other day.
• 12:27
  Speaker 2: He's on a second marriage which was a product of
• 12:29
  Speaker 2: an affair from his first marriage. Both of them were
• 12:32
  Speaker 2: cheating on their spouses and got together and then left
• 12:35
  Speaker 2: their spouses and got remarried. And this guy just repeated
• 12:37
  Speaker 2: his DA patterns. He was cheating on second wife and
• 12:41
  Speaker 2: it was just.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Like god, well and it just goes to show for
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: the partner that's cheated on that it really doesn't have
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: anything to do with you. No, yeah, but sometimes you
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: feel that way, right, Like that's part of the betrayal,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: that's part of the rejection, is like what have I done?
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: Of course, you know, and out of your practice and
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: out of all the attachment styles, which is the one
• 13:04
  Speaker 1: that cheats most frequently, the DA, yeah, for.
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: Sure, because they just can't be intimate. But they're human
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: and so they have a need for intimacy, but it
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: scares them to death, and so they just want to
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: bounce from new partner to new partner where it's the
• 13:19
  Speaker 2: honeymoon phase because they're scared to death of conflict, commitment,
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: meeting people's expectations. So the honeymoon phase is literally perfect
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: for them, right, So they just want to keep and
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: they have this unfortunate very what am I trying to
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: say here? They're expectations of how a relationship should go
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: or just not really accurate, right, It's like it's just
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: not really what happens in a relationship. The honeymoon stage
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: just doesn't last forever, yeah, right, and so you can't
• 13:49
  Speaker 2: expect it to. But they have this just crazy dream
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: that this honeymoon phase is going to last forever. And
• 13:56
  Speaker 2: then when it stops, because there's you get to know
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: each other better and people you know best, foot forward
• 14:02
  Speaker 2: stops getting put first, as happens when you get to
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: know somebody deeply and you're not in that honeymoon exciting anymore.
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: When you're dealing with variables that are real life.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Exactly, and conflict starts to creep in and expectations, you know,
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: get a little bit higher for their time energy and attention.
• 14:21
  Speaker 2: That stuff really turns them off and pushes them away.
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: And you know, when I work with my dismissive avoidant clients,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: DA stands for dismissive avoidant. If we didn't put that
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: in there, I really have to help them understand that
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: this isn't a true compatibility issue. This is a childhood
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: trauma issue where you were emotionally neglected in childhood and
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: you don't know how to process your own feelings or
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: deal with the feelings of others. You were pushed into
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: hyper independence too soon, and so you value your independence
• 14:51
  Speaker 2: over commitment, and you're scared to death of vulnerability and conflict.
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: So basically you are scared of all of the things
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: it takes to make a relationship right right commitment, conflict, resolution, closeness,
• 15:05
  Speaker 2: and intimacy. They're scared to death.
• 15:06
  Speaker 1: And the three really go hand in hand.
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, yeah, I mean it's just part of a relationship. Yeah,
• 15:11
  Speaker 2: And they have this program that's just like, no, it
• 15:14
  Speaker 2: should always be the honeymoon face and nobody should ask
• 15:17
  Speaker 2: anything of me. We should just always have peace and harmony.
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: Time it always if you don't if you don't like
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: me the way I am, then you can leave.
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: You want me the way I am leave? You know
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: what that's that's the mentality of five year olds.
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: Right. If you really think that you're so perfect that
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: you're just above learning how to love someone else in
• 15:36
  Speaker 2: a unique way because they're a unique person, then I
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: mean you've got serious wounding, yeah for sure, and you
• 15:43
  Speaker 2: need to work on that.
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: And I did coach for a little while, you know,
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: in your practice.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: And you were a fabulous one.
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you. It's tough. It's it's a tough gig,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: and you know the expectation of helping people with their
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: most intimate relationships is it was tough on me. But
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: needless to say, I can I can say through my
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: own experience in coaching that the das were the most complex.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: They're not the most complex of the attachment styles, but no,
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: to coachs, it was extremely difficult because they can't process right.
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: So even while you're talking to them, they would listen, yeah,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: but was it registering.
• 16:25
  Speaker 2: No, It's like you're speaking a foreign language to them sometimes.
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: That's why I think they do so well in my
• 16:29
  Speaker 2: groups because in the groups, this is why I built
• 16:32
  Speaker 2: the groups, because in the small group setting, they can
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: just sit back and listen right right, which is so
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: much better. Their nervous systems are so much more regulated
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: when they can sit back and listen versus having to
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: speak and interact, and then they can take the bite
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: sized pieces of information and then they can go sit
• 16:48
  Speaker 2: within and process it because they're extremely slow emotional processors.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: And when you put a dismissive avoidant with a fearful
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: avoidant and you have that conflict cycle, the fearful avoidant
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: they process emotions like speed of light. And then when
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: the DA sitting there going I don't know how I feel,
• 17:06
  Speaker 2: I don't know what to say, They're like, you don't
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: even care, and I'm like, no, it's a capacity issue.
• 17:09
  Speaker 2: Like they literally are frozen. They can't process their emotions,
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: which I think would circle back to another very common
• 17:16
  Speaker 2: situation related to should I say or should I go?
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: Which is the profound neglect that dismissive avoidance bring to relationships. Yeah,
• 17:23
  Speaker 2: and that.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: Was gonna be my next question. Yeah, specifically with that dynamic,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I know that the short period of time that I coached,
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: it seemed as if that FA, when it was the
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: FADA dynamic, the FA was so torn I like, because
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: they're like, I can't deal it. Like some of these
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: people had been in like twenty plus years of marriage,
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: of course, where they were getting nothing, nothing from their partner.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Literally they could be like, oh, the sky looks so
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: pretty today and look over to their partner and the
• 17:52
  Speaker 2: partner would just be looking away, like off in space,
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: Like no bids for connection are accepted. If there's conflict
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: at all, the DA will to ghost them for days,
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: like not talk to them because they're shut down into
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: their phrase response. The DA becomes a complete workaholic or
• 18:09
  Speaker 2: hobby aholic. They literally will google over their dog but
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: not their partner.
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 18:15
  Speaker 2: You know, I've had so many clients say they love
• 18:17
  Speaker 2: the dog more than.
• 18:18
  Speaker 1: Me, and that's so sad. So I mean sad. So
• 18:22
  Speaker 1: in your practice when you see that dynamic and you
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: know these people have been let's just say they've even
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: been married a decade, right, Like, when is the point
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: of saying no more? I can't like I've got to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: walk away because understanding and showing compassion towards your partner
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: and the fact that they do have this capacity issue
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: is one thing, But at what point do you just like,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: what's the timeline?
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I sort of have a phase of interventions, right,
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: So intervention number one is having the non DA partner
• 18:55
  Speaker 2: show up extremely attachment secure, so we really shore up
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: their attachment security, making sure they understand non critical communication,
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: how to ask for needs to be met with the
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: dismissive avoidant, you know, in ways that give them a
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: sense of evolition or autonomy or control. Really trying to
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: create peace and harmony, picking your battles with the DA,
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: and using very strict rules around conflict resolution with the DA.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: So that's that's always first, right because sometimes if the
• 19:25
  Speaker 2: insecure DA is like mild to moderately dismissive avoidant, that
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: secure behavior of the other partner will really model to
• 19:32
  Speaker 2: them good behavior as well as you know, ease their
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: nervous systems and allow them to step in a little
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: bit more and come closer. So that's that's what we
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: try first. If that doesn't work, if the partner that
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: is not DA has really stepped into security and they're
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: asking for their needs to be met in a non
• 19:51
  Speaker 2: critical way and they're picking their battles and they're giving
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: their DA some space and they're you know, learning to
• 19:56
  Speaker 2: meet some of their own needs on their own and
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: they're still no intimacy, then it's like we need a
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: boundary around getting help. That's phase two, right, So if
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: you're not willing to get some help, you're not willing
• 20:08
  Speaker 2: to participate in getting help, then I gotta go because
• 20:12
  Speaker 2: they're not going to change without help. They're not going
• 20:14
  Speaker 2: to change, and understanding their patterns alone even doesn't change them.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: They have to get the tools they have to build
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: their capacity for intimacy. And then you know, phase number
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: three is like if they do get help and they're
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: not really participating, which I see that a lot. They're
• 20:29
  Speaker 2: just not participating. It's like, okay, I'll go, and it's
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: like obligation. Yeah, it's just they're being drug right, it's
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: to therapy or to coaching or whatever it is, and
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: they're not participating, then it's like you have to call
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: it because there are people that are trying to save
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: their marriage and there are people that are just trying
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: to avoid divorce. And a lot of times the dismiss
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: of avoidant is just trying to avoid divorce. They don't
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: want to get divorced, but because they're like, my marriage
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: is fine, because they have like no needs for intimacy
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: after a while. So if there's no intimacy, there's like
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: it's it's fun. I mean, I wouldn't say don't have
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: any needs, but a lot of them.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Over time, I've seen.
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: They don't need very much. They have like a thimble
• 21:09
  Speaker 2: sized needs bucket, right, So as long as there's not
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: conflict in the relationship, they're fine. Conflict is really the
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: only thing that makes them not want to be in
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: the relationships fascinate me.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, the dismissive avoid it fascinates me. And I
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: think it's because I'm so on the other side of
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: the spectrum that I'm just.
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: Like, remember when I dated one for a year and
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: a half and I was like, and I knew he
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: was a dismissive avoidant, and I was still beating my
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: head against the wall in my unhealed day again and
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: you were.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: Calling me like what should I do? And I'm like leave.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: Know that was like it was always leave, And I
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: was even I don't leave, because you know, that was
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: a raging fa with attachment anxiety who had had intermittent
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: reinforcement in the relationship with this person. But I mean,
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I look back now compared to my marriage nice, but
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: early relationship, it was barely a friendship, Like it.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Was pathetic redcrumbs who were real in that one?
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: Oh God, and every time I was a guy. I mean,
• 22:04
  Speaker 2: he was a good hearted person. You know, I'm not
• 22:06
  Speaker 2: going to sit there and bash him, because I do
• 22:09
  Speaker 2: think that he was a moral person. I think he
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: was a good hearted person. He was really funny, but
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: unfortunately he just sucked as a boyfriend.
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: He was a total d because Dias will also use
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: comic relief as a defense mechanism.
• 22:24
  Speaker 2: For sure, anytime I tried to attempt a serious conversation,
• 22:28
  Speaker 2: he would just make a joke. He could not do it.
• 22:30
  Speaker 2: He could not do it. And he literally broke up
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: with me the night that and he was with me
• 22:38
  Speaker 2: that I got the call from the emergency room that
• 22:41
  Speaker 2: my mom had a tumor on her pancreas, that she
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: had pancreatic cancer. And then it was like, you just
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: need to focus on your mom, Like I just really
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: can't give you what you need. You just you just
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: you're just gonna need to really go focus on her.
• 22:53
  Speaker 2: And here I am, like, my mom's my best friend.
• 22:56
  Speaker 2: I just had this horrible divorce where I literally have
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: no contact with my ex. We have a domestic violence
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: no contact order that I'm navigating. My mom has pancreatic cancer.
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: Just put your dog to sleep.
• 23:08
  Speaker 2: I just got my dog to sleep. All of my
• 23:10
  Speaker 2: attachments were just gone. And then my ex diese like
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: two weeks later.
• 23:14
  Speaker 1: It was a wild time.
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: And then my nervous system snapped in half and I became.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: I was there. I was there for I was there
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: for the raw. You were there, and it was a
• 23:24
  Speaker 1: wild one.
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: It was. But I mean, look how much I transformed.
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: My gosh, you're a totally different person.
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: Totally completely different human being. And this person that I
• 23:32
  Speaker 2: am now would never put up with that. No. I
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: mean my husband. You know my husband. My husband is golden.
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: He is He is the most loving, kind, mature, responsible human.
• 23:50
  Speaker 1: There for you has your back.
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: Oh gosh, she's a right.
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: We're both blessed.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: I your husband's the same. Yeah, we've got ride or dies.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: But I think it's because, you know, we did have
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: to not to like tootor own horns, but we're going
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: to toot the too too too. I think it was
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: because we had been through so much trauma and then
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: we had to spend so much time healing and finding
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: our attachment security so that we because like attracts like
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: for sure, you know, and people want to get on
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: this issue. This brings me to the topic of compatibility,
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: like what compatibility really means, But what compatibility really means
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: is finding yourself.
• 24:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it really is because secure attracts secure every single time.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: That's why the people that are secure from childhood, good
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: for them. It wasn't me, but people that are secure,
• 24:38
  Speaker 2: you know, and they find somebody in their early twenties
• 24:40
  Speaker 2: and they stayed married, it's because they found somebody else secure.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: You know. It's like those are the high school loves
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: that they're like still going really strong, and you look
• 24:47
  Speaker 2: on social media and you're like, oh, they're so in love,
• 24:49
  Speaker 2: like that's so amazing. And they met when they were seventeen. Yeah,
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: it's like, well, because they were secure and they knew
• 24:54
  Speaker 2: how to work through their relationship issues. Right. Insecure people, sorry,
• 24:59
  Speaker 2: we end up divorced. We do because we attracted and
• 25:02
  Speaker 2: we're attracted to other insecure people. And then we were
• 25:08
  Speaker 2: say the word crap shows, yeah, okay, and it was
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: dumpster fires, right, and so but then people don't they
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: just think, oh, it was just I was just with
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: the wrong person, right. So many people make that mistake
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: thinking I was just with the wrong person and if
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: I have a new partner, it's all going to be better.
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: They fail to self reflect.
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: Yes, this is all about it. They feel so justified
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: in their dumpster fire behavior because it was their partner's fault, right,
• 25:36
  Speaker 2: But really, the question you have to ask yourself, which
• 25:39
  Speaker 2: is step one day one, is what was it about
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: me that was attracted to this person, that stayed with
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: this person that put up with this behavior? And step
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: number two is then to say where was I at fault?
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: Radical? Responsibil radical, saying that in my coaching sessions radical
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: and really focusing on the word radical, like you have
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: to get really really intent.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: Right, Like there is absolutely no room for saying, well,
• 26:09
  Speaker 2: I did B because my partner did a right and
• 26:12
  Speaker 2: even though B was terrible, was a terrible behavior, it
• 26:15
  Speaker 2: was super insecure, immature, or hurtful. I only did it
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: because my partner did this thing that is worse. Right,
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: It's like now we don't get to play that game anymore.
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: You are one hundred percent responsible for your behavior at
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: all times, regardless of what your partner does. If your
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: partners act in a fool, then you need to be
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: setting boundaries and get the heck out of there, right.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: You don't need to be justifying your bad behavior because
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: they did something bad well.
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: And again, like going back to when I was coaching,
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: that was the one thing that I would always stress.
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: I'm like, the thing is about once you reach secure attachment,
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: then you could take good inventory. Yes, that's that's the
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: only time you're able to really take that inventory of Okay,
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: I've done everything I can, so now I can I
• 26:56
  Speaker 1: can actually sit back and say, Okay, I've done everything
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: I can. I feel secure, I've set my boundaries, I've
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: not become reactive with in conflict and it still doesn't work.
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: So I can walk away with my pride.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: Right, And it is so much better to walk away
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: with no regrets than it is to walk away and
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: be plagued by man I didn't show up well. And
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: because that leads people to return, right, And because when
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: they finally come to that realization and then they try
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: to return and then the other partner hasn't done any work,
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: and then it's just they've wasted more of their time. Right.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: So getting to the point where you are truly attachment secure.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: You get to the point where you can walk away
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: from bad behavior because I you know, before I met
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: my husband, he's probably not gonna listen to this, But
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: before I met I did date a few people. When
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: I first started dating, just you know, there was a
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: couple other dudes, and there was one with a red
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: flag and I was like, bae, bae, Like I didn't
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: even go on a second date. I just was like, nope.
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: I mean he was good looking and he was axtremely successful,
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: and yeah, it.
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: Didn't take me as long to see the red flags
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: after like, oh no, after my ex, yeah, my main ex,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: you know. Yeah, and I dated a few men as well,
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: and it was just like.
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: You were so good about turning the red flags down.
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: I wanted to be like you. I was like, she
• 28:18
  Speaker 2: can just like be like no.
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: Bye, ye see the proof of modeled behavior.
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, right, exactly. You became secure before I became secure.
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: You did, and but you were a lot of the
• 28:29
  Speaker 2: reason that I went to down that road because I
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: was like, I know all this stuff, I know what
• 28:33
  Speaker 2: my problems are, but I don't know how to fix it.
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: Nobody ever talks about how to fix it.
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: Never ever, just the understanding of it. Here's a book or.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, understanding is the first step. It shouldn't
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: be the end result, right, And that's what a lot
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: of therapy gave me. I mean, I loved my therapist.
• 28:49
  Speaker 2: She was amazing, and I don't think I probably would
• 28:51
  Speaker 2: have made it through some of the difficulty without her.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: But I got understanding. I didn't get tools right right right,
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: and I had to do is I had to search
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: high and low for the tools and I had to
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: experiment with them and figure out what worked.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: And you know, you spend a lot of time alone.
• 29:09
  Speaker 2: I did a lot. I was dedicated to healing. I
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: was for a whole year. I said I will not
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: date anybody. And that was huge for me as a
• 29:19
  Speaker 2: more anxious I was a fearful of what he leaned anxious.
• 29:22
  Speaker 2: But to be alone was to be abandoned to me.
• 29:24
  Speaker 2: And so that was the hardest thing I ever did.
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: But he really committed to that. I didn't really commit.
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: I did, even within your friendships and you kind of
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: just disappeared for a year.
• 29:32
  Speaker 2: I did. I did, and because I needed God.
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the thing that really as we wrap up,
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: like that's the thing that people need to understand is
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: that the other side is only scary temporarily.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: It is only scary temporary.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: It's only temporary. And then once you get to that
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: place where you know, I mean, we're all still on
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: a healing journey for the rest of our lives. But
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: once you get to the other side of of divorce
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: and you know, really being able to feel good about
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: you again, it's really beautiful.
• 30:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, in my situation, the grass was one
• 30:10
  Speaker 2: hundred percent greener on the other side. And what I
• 30:13
  Speaker 2: try to tell people, and this is really hard for
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: me to share, but you know, I'm going to share it.
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: I didn't divorce my ex because I was afraid he
• 30:21
  Speaker 2: would drink himself to death, and he did when I left. Yeah,
• 30:26
  Speaker 2: And I had so much guilt and so much shame
• 30:30
  Speaker 2: that I should have stayed. That was part of the
• 30:32
  Speaker 2: whole downfall in the rock bottom for me. But you know,
• 30:36
  Speaker 2: God released me from that and he showed me that
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: it wasn't. I couldn't stop him from being an alcoholic.
• 30:42
  Speaker 2: I could not stop that. There was I had no
• 30:44
  Speaker 2: control over that. But I also couldn't be a shell
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: of a human being anymore in that inside of the relationship,
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: and so even knowing what happened, do I regret leaving
• 30:57
  Speaker 2: the answers, No, because my kids needed at least one
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: healthy parent, and I never would have met my second husband.
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: Who oh my gosh. Yeah, so precious.
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's precious to your children.
• 31:09
  Speaker 2: It's precious to my children. I mean, just on the
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: way here, my daughter called and was like, I have
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: a stomach ache. I want to I think I want
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: to come home. I need to come home. I call
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: my husband like, I'm going to turn around. We're not
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: gonna be able to record the podcast today. And he's like, no,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: I got it, babe, I got it. I got it.
• 31:24
  Speaker 2: I immediately didn't even think. He didn't even hesitate. He's like,
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: I'll drop what I'm doing. I got her, and I'll
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: keep you updated. You know, I'll assess her. If she
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: needs to go the doctor, I'll get her there. Like,
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: just go record the podcast. I'll keep you updated. If
• 31:36
  Speaker 2: you're really Donald, super Donald, I love you. But yeah,
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: but that's what that's what it should be. Yeah, that's
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: what it should be. If you are not happy at
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: least eighty percent of the time in your marriage, and
• 31:48
  Speaker 2: you've tried interventions and you've set boundaries and you're getting
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: no movement. Freaking leave. Yeah, just divorce. It can all
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: be navigated. The finances will be navigated. There's supports out there,
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: there's help out there, there's a million and one resources
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: out there to help you navigate divorce. And the grass
• 32:05
  Speaker 2: will be freaking greener on the other side if you
• 32:07
  Speaker 2: do the work.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Right right, And again, I want to be clear, like,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: we don't advocate for divorce.
• 32:11
  Speaker 2: Now, I try to save a marriage at all calls.
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And I mean we're both women of faith for sure.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: We definitely don't advocate for divorce. And we know that
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: God loves marriage. But God loves marriage on the terms
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: where it's a true partnership the.
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: Covenant, right, and that's why he gives. And what people
• 32:25
  Speaker 2: don't understand is the biblical side of it. Even says
• 32:28
  Speaker 2: like neglect is abuse, abuses abuse, and that's all under
• 32:32
  Speaker 2: abandonment right of the covenant, right, and as is infidelity.
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: So if you have you know, if you have severe neglect,
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: if you have an abuse, if you have infidelity, you're released.
• 32:43
  Speaker 2: You need to go. Yeah, And so no, I do
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: try to save a marriage. I mean we try everything first.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: You know, I never ever tell people to jump straight
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: to divorce unless there's serious abuse.
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: And guess she has saved marriages.
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure, I mean, I mean, that's her reviews say. So.
• 33:00
  Speaker 2: The greatest joy is knowing that, oh my gosh, like
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: somebody's childhood is forever preserved in a positive way because
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: their parents worked it out. I want nothing more than that,
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: and God has put me on this earth to try
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: to achieve that. But you can't play with other people's
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: demons either. If they refuse to let their demons go,
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: you can't play with them, you know, to where it
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: breaks you down and you can't recover from it. I mean,
• 33:27
  Speaker 2: the damage of abuse and severe neglect is it's incomprehensible
• 33:33
  Speaker 2: what it does to the nervous system.
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: And God doesn't want that, No, he doesn't. So well,
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: I think that's a beautiful place to stop.
• 33:39
  Speaker 2: I think so too.
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, you know, if you loved this podcast today,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: please go share and subscribe on iTunes, and of course
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: go follow doctor Hansley on social media at the Dating Decoder,
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: and if you are interested in any of her coaching services,
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: you can visit her website at the datingdecoder dot com.
• 34:00
  Speaker 2: I would love to help you.
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: Yes, thanks for listening. Guy, Thank you, Love, light and perspective.