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Can Lando Norris really win the title? Dutch GP Review · Pit Talk

0:00
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Pit Talk, a Fox Sports and
0:03
Speaker 1: Speed Cafe Formula one podcast. On today's episode, Lando Norris
0:07
Speaker 1: dominates the Dutch Grand Prix, serving Max Forstappen his first
0:11
Speaker 1: ever defeat in Zandwort. It puts McLaren in the box
0:14
Speaker 1: seat for the constructor's title, but does it make a
0:17
Speaker 1: Norris driver's championship any more likely. My name's Michael Lamonato,
0:22
Speaker 1: motorsport writer for Fox Sports Australia. It's great to have
0:24
Speaker 1: your company and the company of my co host from
0:28
Speaker 1: Speed Cafe. He told the Austrian media he'd be appearing
0:31
Speaker 1: on our podcast, but Christian Horner says it'll only be
0:34
Speaker 1: a podcast. It's Matt Cosh.
0:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, not specific as to which podcast, just any old
0:39
Speaker 2: podcast that's gone and there's plenty out there to choose from.
0:41
Speaker 2: I'll just get loaned out to one of them.
0:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm thinking of calling the race podcasting if they
0:46
Speaker 1: want you on loan for nine races, just to like
0:48
Speaker 1: just get you into the groove of twenty twenty five.
0:50
Speaker 1: You know, maybe that'll be good. Could be any podcast today?
0:53
Speaker 2: Can alleagansigent me from this?
0:55
Speaker 1: Yeah?
0:55
Speaker 2: Wow?
0:55
Speaker 1: I mean no, No, you'll be the Liam Lawson, I guess,
0:57
Speaker 1: but you'll also be the low You'll have to be
0:59
Speaker 1: voted at the same time.
1:00
Speaker 2: I'll be both sides on the same coin.
1:01
Speaker 1: Then to be uncomfortable situation. We'll have to have a
1:03
Speaker 1: talk later on about this. We'll get to Christian Horner's
1:07
Speaker 1: commentary and the unexpected twists of the Driving Mike a
1:10
Speaker 1: little bit later.
1:10
Speaker 2: I think, didn't I hate to old friends and do
1:13
Speaker 2: that one year he went from Jordan to somewhere else
1:15
Speaker 2: because he's got the sacked midway through when he swapped
1:17
Speaker 2: drive with John A. Lacy.
1:18
Speaker 1: You are the historical reference of this podcast. Just typically
1:21
Speaker 1: I wouldn't. I wouldn't have asked me that question, but
1:24
Speaker 1: not without some research first anyway. Really, it's more of
1:27
Speaker 1: a Daniel kiveat move, isn't it to be sacked and
1:29
Speaker 1: then to be replaced and sacked and then put back
1:32
Speaker 1: in your team. It's unfortunate that could still be on
1:35
Speaker 1: the cards for Logan sergeant. We'll talk about that a
1:37
Speaker 1: little bit later on. But it's been a big week
1:39
Speaker 1: in news, so let's go through in five minutes the
1:42
Speaker 1: top five headlines of the last week. But let's start
1:44
Speaker 1: with something you would already know about if you've been
1:46
Speaker 1: subscribed to the podcast, because we do a special podcast
1:48
Speaker 1: on it at the weekend on Saturday, but we'll recap
1:50
Speaker 1: it for you anyway. Oz A young gun Jack Doant
1:53
Speaker 1: will step up to Formula One with el Pane next year,
1:56
Speaker 1: partnering with Pierre Gasly, big tick for your Australian, possibly
2:01
Speaker 1: three Australians on the grid next year, and just a
2:03
Speaker 1: terrific chance for a guy who I think has been
2:06
Speaker 1: a little bit underrated during his junior career. I'm really
2:09
Speaker 1: excited to seeing how he goes.
2:10
Speaker 2: Yep, he's a race winner in Formula three and Formula two.
2:13
Speaker 2: Probably would have done better in his last year of
2:14
Speaker 2: Formula two if he didn't have a crack chassis through
2:18
Speaker 2: the first third of the season and then you know
2:20
Speaker 2: the pressure mount stotom and he made a mistake in
2:23
Speaker 2: Monaco which sort of kicked him into gear himself. So yeah, look,
2:27
Speaker 2: he's really highly thought of in Edston's done a lot
2:30
Speaker 2: of work behind the scenes there in terms of simulator
2:32
Speaker 2: lots of time in previous model cars as well tire testing,
2:37
Speaker 2: so lots of seat time along with lots of respect
2:40
Speaker 2: from that team. So and just good to see and
2:42
Speaker 2: our peen youngster get the nod.
2:45
Speaker 1: Yeah at al Pain, which is yeah, good for them
2:48
Speaker 1: staying with the driver market now and after he's big
2:51
Speaker 1: and let's be honest, quite silly. FT three crash logan
2:55
Speaker 1: sergeant may have used up his last life with Williams,
2:58
Speaker 1: where team principal James vow is seeking out alternatives to
3:02
Speaker 1: the American racer for as soon as this weekends Italian
3:05
Speaker 1: Grand Prix, with Liam Lawson rumored to be the most
3:08
Speaker 1: obvious candidate, though he's not the only one.
3:11
Speaker 2: No, he's not mix. Schumacher is in the mix there.
3:12
Speaker 2: In fact, my intel as we're recording, the problem with
3:15
Speaker 2: this story is that it's changing so quickly because the
3:18
Speaker 2: deadlines seemingly so near. You know, we're talking Thursday for
3:21
Speaker 2: a decision that has to be made by so that'll
3:25
Speaker 2: probably shake out in the next twenty four hours. So
3:27
Speaker 2: by the time we're recordings, we're probably wrong. But Mick
3:31
Speaker 2: schu Macher now looks favorite for that drive. From my
3:35
Speaker 2: understanding and the many phone calls I've had over the
3:38
Speaker 2: last twenty four hours or so, Liam Lawson is open
3:43
Speaker 2: to being loaned out Red Bull is Key for that
3:45
Speaker 2: to happen, but they also want the right to be
3:47
Speaker 2: able to call him back if they need to, and
3:50
Speaker 2: James vows Williams isn't keen on that. Of course, Logan
3:53
Speaker 2: Sargent's been under pressure for a long time, even going
3:56
Speaker 2: back to the Canadian Grand Prix. I was hearing whispers
3:58
Speaker 2: that Camiantonelli was going to go into that current. Of course,
4:01
Speaker 2: whim sought the dispensation earlier in the year for Antonelli,
4:04
Speaker 2: who is now eighteen. But yeah, the probable outcome is
4:09
Speaker 2: that will be mixed Schumacher in that car if there
4:11
Speaker 2: is a change, because time is running out.
4:13
Speaker 1: Well, sticking with the driver market and with Andrea Kimi Antonelli.
4:16
Speaker 1: Looking ahead to this weekend, this could be the most
4:18
Speaker 1: watched FP one session of the year with Lewis Hamilton's
4:22
Speaker 1: presumptive replacement. Antonelli said to take over George Russell's car
4:25
Speaker 1: for his first in weekend F one session. As you said,
4:28
Speaker 1: he turned eighteen on Sunday. Total Wolves ruled him out
4:31
Speaker 1: of that William's loan agreement, but all signs are absolutely
4:35
Speaker 1: to he'll be on the grid as soon as next season.
4:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's now qualified for a super license without needing
4:40
Speaker 2: dispensation or any of that stuff. So it's just an
4:44
Speaker 2: easy way for Mercedes to assess him like for like
4:48
Speaker 2: directly opposite George Russell and they can then have a
4:52
Speaker 2: little bit more in favor. Realistically, my understanding is the
4:55
Speaker 2: decisions we made, even her whispers at an announcement like
4:58
Speaker 2: formally confirming him in that drive, and that will be
5:00
Speaker 2: made this week. I'm not sure I'm sold on that,
5:02
Speaker 2: but at the same time, I wouldn't be surprised because
5:06
Speaker 2: who else is are out there that there's not really
5:08
Speaker 2: a better bet unless you consider mixed Schumacher for a
5:12
Speaker 2: year in caive Antonelli another one in Formula too, But
5:14
Speaker 2: I just don't see that happening.
5:15
Speaker 1: Must be confusing to be an Italian. You've got to
5:17
Speaker 1: support Lewis Hamilton next year, but then you've also got
5:20
Speaker 1: your Italian replacing Lewis Hamilton Mercedes. It's just going to
5:23
Speaker 1: be awkward to be there, I think.
5:24
Speaker 2: But the atmosphere is on you support the Britain, the
5:26
Speaker 2: Italian or the Italian in the British Germany.
5:29
Speaker 1: It's just no good. Yeah, just Grefosco Piastre. It's easier.
5:32
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Reno now because staff there have written
5:36
Speaker 1: a letter to French management staff at the Engine Power
5:39
Speaker 1: at the Power Unit division of course just outside of Paris,
5:42
Speaker 1: imploring the business not to drop the F one engine
5:45
Speaker 1: program in favor of a Mercedes customer supply which is
5:48
Speaker 1: very much tipped to take place or be agreed by
5:51
Speaker 1: the end of the month. The staff have claimed, among
5:53
Speaker 1: other arguments, the shortcoming related to the power unit is
5:57
Speaker 1: only about twenty percent of Alpine's performance difficit under these
6:01
Speaker 1: current rules, and that it's actually the chassis department that's
6:04
Speaker 1: all to blame.
6:06
Speaker 2: Ultimately, the entire package as one is to blame. It
6:09
Speaker 2: doesn't matter how you divide that up. Really, even if
6:12
Speaker 2: it is only twenty percent, it is still twenty percent.
6:14
Speaker 2: That's a pretty significant portion of the shortcoming. And also
6:19
Speaker 2: when you've only got three other manufacturers on the grid,
6:21
Speaker 2: then you know you're the fourth of four. But also
6:24
Speaker 2: it's costing a huge amount of money. There is no
6:26
Speaker 2: business case to keep that program going, and I'm sorry
6:29
Speaker 2: to the people are very it doesn't make sense to
6:34
Speaker 2: keep it. You can get a better performing engine for
6:36
Speaker 2: less money, and in what business case does it make
6:39
Speaker 2: sense to not do that? And then you add on
6:42
Speaker 2: the extras, which is the teams more saleable in the future.
6:45
Speaker 2: And it seems as though they're shaping up to do that.
6:47
Speaker 2: Be that minority or a majority stake in the operation,
6:51
Speaker 2: so the staff can feel as agrieved as they like.
6:55
Speaker 2: French label laws will protect them quite well, but it
7:00
Speaker 2: makes more sense to deploy that knowledge, expertise and resource
7:04
Speaker 2: elk swhere within Renault group or even within some of
7:08
Speaker 2: the jvs that's got with Geely or even our Peen
7:11
Speaker 2: itself as a brand.
7:12
Speaker 1: I want to know what Ryan Rental thinks. That's a
7:13
Speaker 1: question for another day. Let's drip up now with Haas,
7:17
Speaker 1: which has avoided a potential disaster by paying off its
7:19
Speaker 1: debts with Russian former title sponsor You're Alkoli. Your Alcholi
7:23
Speaker 1: successfully petitioned the Dutch courts to effectively impound the team's
7:27
Speaker 1: gear after the Dutch Grand Prix until it paid up,
7:29
Speaker 1: having potentially put its Italian Grand Prix weekend at risk.
7:33
Speaker 1: But those trucks are rolling now.
7:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, so the transaction actually occurred on Friday, but the
7:38
Speaker 2: banking system is such that that doesn't tick over until
7:42
Speaker 2: there's a batch process that runs over, and I can
7:44
Speaker 2: say this. I used to work in a bank years ago.
7:47
Speaker 2: So there's a batch process that runs between banks overnight.
7:51
Speaker 2: It doesn't run on a Friday night, but it does
7:53
Speaker 2: run on a Monday morning, so that money wouldn't have
7:56
Speaker 2: hit the Russian account or whatever account that it's gone
8:00
Speaker 2: into until and this is part of the awkwardness as well.
8:03
Speaker 2: You know, just the ability to transfer money into Russia
8:07
Speaker 2: is not trivial anymore, nor should it be for that matter.
8:11
Speaker 2: But that process wasn't completed until Monday morning. So obviously,
8:15
Speaker 2: you know, if you're eraqally or the authorities and the
8:18
Speaker 2: Netherlands who are acting under the law that they've been
8:21
Speaker 2: instructed to until that money is cleared, which happened on
8:24
Speaker 2: Monday morning, things remain as they as they were in
8:28
Speaker 2: impound effectively. But it all came through in the trucks
8:31
Speaker 2: are on the road, so no drama has never argued it.
8:36
Speaker 2: They just claimed it was difficult because it was Russian money,
8:39
Speaker 2: to which the Russian said, but what about no, it's not.
8:42
Speaker 1: It's good to know that banks are still sticking to
8:44
Speaker 1: a nine to five Monday to Friday workship.
8:47
Speaker 2: How else do they get out to the bars the
8:50
Speaker 2: drinking culture in banks, in my experience, was very very strong.
8:53
Speaker 1: That's the real economic impact there really is in finance
8:58
Speaker 1: a top five stories of the last week. But of
9:00
Speaker 1: course over the weekend, Matt, it was a Grand Prix,
9:02
Speaker 1: the first Grand Prix back from the mid season break,
9:05
Speaker 1: the Dutch Grand Prix, and it was a fairly significant
9:09
Speaker 1: outcome in terms of the story of this season. Will
9:11
Speaker 1: of course get to some of the nitty gritty elements
9:14
Speaker 1: of this race a little later on the podcast, but
9:16
Speaker 1: I want to start with the main takeaway for me
9:19
Speaker 1: anyway from Zandvort, which is the championship picture and of
9:22
Speaker 1: course the constructors championship. Let's start there before we consider
9:24
Speaker 1: the driver's title, because that's a little bit more of
9:26
Speaker 1: a complicated picture. But McLaren has closed its gap to
9:30
Speaker 1: Red Bull Racing to just thirty points. Took twelve points
9:33
Speaker 1: off Red Bull. This despite being and this is something
9:36
Speaker 1: we can talk about a little bit later, Sergio peir
9:38
Speaker 1: is having a reasonable weekend. So even in let's say
9:41
Speaker 1: the normal envelope of performance, McLaren is still taking off
9:44
Speaker 1: enough points to take the lead of the championship. By
9:47
Speaker 1: the end of the Singapore Grand Prix trajectory we've been
9:48
Speaker 1: talking about over the last couple of weeks. But it's
9:51
Speaker 1: not just that, is it, Because this was a big
9:54
Speaker 1: performance from McLaren. Lando Norris won by the largest margin
9:58
Speaker 1: of the entire year to date, twenty two point nine
10:01
Speaker 1: seconds over Max we Staven. Max had never been defeated
10:04
Speaker 1: at this Grand Prix. I'd never even be defeated for
10:06
Speaker 1: Pole at this Grand Prix, so very much a change
10:09
Speaker 1: of circumstances for him. But it also comes to the
10:12
Speaker 1: context of McLaren having upgraded its car now, Matt. I
10:15
Speaker 1: don't think anyone's assuming that McLaren's going to be winning
10:18
Speaker 1: by record margins every week, but this was an emphatic
10:22
Speaker 1: Sunday for that team and to Lando.
10:24
Speaker 2: It's a sea change in many respects because if you
10:28
Speaker 2: think back to Lando's first win in Miami, circumstance played
10:31
Speaker 2: a pretty significant part of that. In Hungary, McLaren was strong,
10:36
Speaker 2: but it was it wasn't demonstrably better than anyone else.
10:42
Speaker 2: It was a little bit ahead, but it wasn't dominant.
10:47
Speaker 2: Even Inspire, there were arguments to be made that the
10:50
Speaker 2: Red Bull in a normal weekend where Max wasn't penalized
10:55
Speaker 2: would have been far more competitive. There were no such
10:58
Speaker 2: excuses here. We saw a head to head race, uninterrupted,
11:02
Speaker 2: unhinted even by yellow flag between Max and Lando, Red
11:10
Speaker 2: Bull and McLaren and apart from Lando getting a little
11:14
Speaker 2: bit more will spin off the line and losing the
11:17
Speaker 2: lead into Tarzan, I love saying that into tar I Love.
11:22
Speaker 2: Tracks with corner names turn one to most people. But
11:26
Speaker 2: Tarzan two colins before hugen Holts. If it weren't for that,
11:33
Speaker 2: Orlando probably would have won by more. And then you
11:36
Speaker 2: look back at Oscar Piastrian fourth. Okay, he was only
11:40
Speaker 2: fourth and a little bit further back than he should
11:41
Speaker 2: have been, but he ran the vast majority of that
11:44
Speaker 2: race in traffic, and it was only four and a
11:48
Speaker 2: half five seconds back from the Stappen. So you take
11:54
Speaker 2: some of that traffic effect out and Oscar's up the
11:58
Speaker 2: road as well. So suddenly rebels not just being beaten
12:00
Speaker 2: by Lando Red Bulls being beaten by McLaren as a whole.
12:05
Speaker 2: And then you've got Sergio down in six, contributing only
12:07
Speaker 2: eight points, which clearly isn't enough. You know, sixth now
12:12
Speaker 2: isn't enough for Sergo Perrys. It needs to be fourth
12:15
Speaker 2: at worst, because any you're the worst of the top
12:17
Speaker 2: two teams. Effectively, Yeah, it's we've got a cracking little
12:22
Speaker 2: fire in our hands because this will start to set
12:24
Speaker 2: the tone into next year as well. McLaren you mentioned
12:27
Speaker 2: it probably has to be favorite for the Constructors Championship,
12:30
Speaker 2: but this for me is the point at which the
12:33
Speaker 2: pendulum is absolutely swung. We've seen it move in McLaren's
12:37
Speaker 2: favor up to this point and Hungary was a really
12:40
Speaker 2: good indicator of that so to SPA. But this is
12:43
Speaker 2: the point where, yeah, McLaren aren't just a chance of
12:48
Speaker 2: the World Championship. I think McLaren have to be favorites
12:51
Speaker 2: now for the World Championship, don't they.
12:53
Speaker 1: It's McLaren's to lose. I think this point because thirty
12:56
Speaker 1: thirty points in the Constructors Championship is so little. In
13:00
Speaker 1: a driver's championship it would be still significant but achievable,
13:03
Speaker 1: but in the Constructors title it's well within the points
13:06
Speaker 1: scored for one weekend. You know, if red Bull has
13:08
Speaker 1: a shocker like I'd have to do the mats on this.
13:11
Speaker 1: But with a repeated to Australian Grand pre weekend where
13:13
Speaker 1: one car retires and I think Perry's fifth or thereabouts
13:16
Speaker 1: in Australia, and McLaren performs like I did this weekend,
13:19
Speaker 1: it'd be over. You know, we'd already see the swing
13:21
Speaker 1: in McLaren's favor in a point set.
13:23
Speaker 2: So yeah, well, Red Bull scored ten points in Australia, so.
13:26
Speaker 1: There you go. You know, it's comfortably then within range
13:29
Speaker 1: of a one to two finish. Overhauling that performance, overhauling
13:32
Speaker 1: that score aren't there. So with nine races still to go,
13:36
Speaker 1: I think at this point it would take quite a
13:38
Speaker 1: shocking dip in form by McLaren to not win this title.
13:41
Speaker 1: Even if we say that Red Bull can win several
13:44
Speaker 1: more races this year, which I'm sure it can. There
13:45
Speaker 1: are some Red Bull circuits coming up, although Zandword was
13:48
Speaker 1: very much a Red Bull circuit based on past experience,
13:50
Speaker 1: so maybe maybe there aren't. But even if it's closer
13:53
Speaker 1: for the rest of the year, it would have to
13:55
Speaker 1: take a massive misreading by everyone on how good McLaren is.
13:58
Speaker 1: That is to say, even if they're just equal to
14:01
Speaker 1: Red Bull, it would still go this way for them
14:03
Speaker 1: not to win the Constructor's title. So there's pressure on there.
14:05
Speaker 1: I guess to get it done because they're still in
14:07
Speaker 1: the lead, but it feels like it's very much swinging
14:09
Speaker 1: in that direction. I thought it was interesting you say,
14:11
Speaker 1: the full momentum swing is now complete, and there's this
14:15
Speaker 1: great symmetry to the fact the previous largest winning margin
14:18
Speaker 1: was Bahrain, the first race of the season, and it
14:20
Speaker 1: was about twenty two seconds. I think it was twenty
14:21
Speaker 1: two point I'm not going to just.
14:23
Speaker 2: Say six two two point four.
14:25
Speaker 1: I think there you go, so only hardly anything less
14:28
Speaker 1: practically the same, and it just makes you realize, obviously,
14:32
Speaker 1: race winning margins a fact, so many factors go into them,
14:35
Speaker 1: like you say, this was a totally normal race. Yellow flags, whatever,
14:38
Speaker 1: safety cars can affect them. But there's this wonderful symmetry
14:41
Speaker 1: that actually it's almost like we've reversed the entire performance
14:44
Speaker 1: picture of the first fourteen races, and from McLaren the
14:47
Speaker 1: season starts now in a weird way and I think, actually,
14:49
Speaker 1: they'll probably still in the Constructors Championship from here. This was,
14:53
Speaker 1: in Helmut Marco's words, alarming as a result, because red
14:57
Speaker 1: Bull was just never really in it, not in the
14:59
Speaker 1: battle for pole, not in the battle for victory, Lando.
15:02
Speaker 1: Norris's advantage ended up being more than four tenths of
15:04
Speaker 1: a second per lap in the race, which was more
15:06
Speaker 1: than his pole margin over Max with Staff and so
15:08
Speaker 1: it's pretty significant. And he said specifically to Autosport that
15:13
Speaker 1: not just a constructor's championship, but the drivers' championship is
15:16
Speaker 1: now at risk. And that's a fairly big plaim because
15:18
Speaker 1: there's a seventy point gap still between Max with Staffan
15:21
Speaker 1: and Lando Norris came down eight points because Norris took
15:23
Speaker 1: the cheeky point for fastest lap on the final tour
15:25
Speaker 1: without asking the team, But that just did underline how
15:28
Speaker 1: fast that car was on forty four lap old hard tires. Matt,
15:32
Speaker 1: it would require an almost perfect rest of the season.
15:36
Speaker 1: In fact, I'm just going to call it a perfect
15:38
Speaker 1: rest of the season. It requires a win at every
15:39
Speaker 1: race in every sprint and four extra points for fastest
15:43
Speaker 1: lap for him to even just tie on points I
15:46
Speaker 1: think in Abu Dhabi, and then he'd win on count
15:48
Speaker 1: back if he won. Obviously the last line races of
15:50
Speaker 1: the season.
15:51
Speaker 2: Who doesn't love a controversial phinale.
15:55
Speaker 1: Don't say it, Matt, I don't want that. Do you
15:58
Speaker 1: put any stock in that like is the Driver's Championship?
16:02
Speaker 1: Is it too much to say it is at risk
16:05
Speaker 1: or under threat? Obviously the points gap did close this
16:08
Speaker 1: weekend and it could continue closing the rest of the seasons.
16:10
Speaker 1: We say, is Max for staff and do you think
16:14
Speaker 1: any part of him even a little bit worried?
16:16
Speaker 2: Not yet, but there is absolutely potential for that to change,
16:22
Speaker 2: just based on the points structure. Now it can change
16:24
Speaker 2: very quickly because it's twenty five points for a race win.
16:26
Speaker 2: So let's say hypothetically MAX retizes from the next three
16:29
Speaker 2: races and Lando wins. It wins those three, Max is
16:32
Speaker 2: leading the World Championship, So this can swing around in
16:35
Speaker 2: three races. Hypothetically, that's absolute worst case scenario for MAX,
16:41
Speaker 2: and it seems unlikely that it will go that far.
16:45
Speaker 2: But es potentially with seventy points, it would be the
16:49
Speaker 2: biggest turnaround in World Championship history if that were the case.
16:52
Speaker 2: But again that's a statistic that doesn't really mean anything
16:56
Speaker 2: because we've had so many different points scores through these
16:58
Speaker 2: I mean, the center of the nineteen eighty eight World
17:00
Speaker 2: Championship having scored fewer points in La Prost. To give
17:02
Speaker 2: you an idea of how bizarre. We've had point structures
17:05
Speaker 2: over the years, so it's not currently under threat, but
17:10
Speaker 2: we do still have nine races to go. You know,
17:13
Speaker 2: seventy points in nine races, that's absolutely achievable. It depends
17:18
Speaker 2: one how competitive Max is in terms of I guess
17:22
Speaker 2: playing a defensive game, and he's going to start playing defensive,
17:25
Speaker 2: doesn't he. You know, if you can take play defense
17:28
Speaker 2: and defense like you did in Austria, then perhaps all
17:31
Speaker 2: the better. But you know, he's got to start protecting
17:34
Speaker 2: that lead and taking fewer risks because if you start
17:37
Speaker 2: taking risks and collide with color Science or George Russell
17:43
Speaker 2: or Lewis Hamilton, you know, someone who's not a direct
17:45
Speaker 2: championship rval, all you're doing is costing yourself points. The
17:48
Speaker 2: flip side to that is everyone else is going to
17:50
Speaker 2: know that, so you can start taking advantage and taking
17:52
Speaker 2: more risk against Max knowing that he's going to have
17:54
Speaker 2: to jump out of the way a little bit. So yeah,
17:58
Speaker 2: it's going to be an interesting run home. I don't
18:00
Speaker 2: think Lando Norris can yet do it. It's not to
18:04
Speaker 2: say I don't think he can win a World championship ever,
18:05
Speaker 2: I just don't think the maths this year that the
18:08
Speaker 2: start of the season was too slow for McClair. If
18:11
Speaker 2: he took the first three or four races out, then yeah,
18:14
Speaker 2: Lando's absolutely a proper chance. I just think it's a
18:17
Speaker 2: little bit too far away now. However, if the situation
18:24
Speaker 2: called for it, and I was in Andreia Steller's shoes,
18:29
Speaker 2: I would now start using Oscar pstre He's forty points,
18:32
Speaker 2: forty six points back from Lando, he's out of driver
18:37
Speaker 2: championship contention's one hundred and sixteen points down, so he's
18:41
Speaker 2: out of it, So park him. In terms of driver
18:43
Speaker 2: championship ambitions, I think theyre pretty much were already focus
18:47
Speaker 2: on the constructors Championship, and if there's the odd occasion
18:49
Speaker 2: where swapping positions helps Lando, then sorry, Oscar, you got
18:54
Speaker 2: to play the team game. Let's do that as well,
18:55
Speaker 2: because with that you can do other things in terms
18:59
Speaker 2: of sponsors and all sorts of other income that because
19:01
Speaker 2: that's the prestigious one. The constructor's championships, great's where you
19:03
Speaker 2: get prize money, but the Driver's Championship is the one
19:06
Speaker 2: that gets the prestige, the headlines, everything else, and that's
19:08
Speaker 2: what you can sell to sponsors. So it's a long shot,
19:14
Speaker 2: but if McLaren plays the team game, I think they
19:17
Speaker 2: can increase their odds.
19:18
Speaker 1: The difference between them is that despite it being a
19:21
Speaker 1: long shot, for Lando Norris, it is still within his hands.
19:23
Speaker 1: He does go out and win every race and every
19:25
Speaker 1: sprint and take points with fastest lab he can win it.
19:28
Speaker 1: It doesn't need to rely on max with Staffan's results,
19:30
Speaker 1: where his oscar would. He's too far behind to do
19:32
Speaker 1: it all off his own bats. So I think that
19:34
Speaker 1: there is now Then that might have been the difference
19:37
Speaker 1: in Hungary, I'd have to go back and do the mats.
19:38
Speaker 1: But in Hungary the odds just seemed less in McLaren's
19:42
Speaker 1: favor because the performance wing seemed less clear. But now
19:45
Speaker 1: five races in a row, Red Bull hasn't been able
19:47
Speaker 1: to win a Grand Prix. McLaren has this upgrade they
19:50
Speaker 1: brought this weekend. It seems to have taken a nice
19:52
Speaker 1: step forward. They've already built it as the only performance
19:55
Speaker 1: upgrades since Miami, so all the upgrades in between have
19:58
Speaker 1: just been about fine tuning. This has actually been about
20:00
Speaker 1: out targeting a step forward and lo and behold, a
20:03
Speaker 1: team wins by a lot. Now that margin is not
20:04
Speaker 1: going to be all about the upgrade, but the upgrade
20:06
Speaker 1: will have played a part in it. And if we
20:08
Speaker 1: do get to the next races and it turns out
20:10
Speaker 1: McLaren is now just the team to beat, well, suddenly
20:12
Speaker 1: that does become possible. And I liked that Andrea Stella
20:16
Speaker 1: said after the race that it has been done before,
20:20
Speaker 1: so that should Betel closed the twenty thirteen season by
20:22
Speaker 1: winning all nine races in a row after the mid
20:24
Speaker 1: season break, which is exactly what Lando Norris needs to do. Now.
20:27
Speaker 1: Betal was already ahead of the championship, already had the
20:30
Speaker 1: fastest car. But if we do consider that McLaren may
20:32
Speaker 1: now have the fastest car, well, then suddenly doesn't seem crazy.
20:35
Speaker 1: And I do note there's a wonderful coincidence that Bettel
20:37
Speaker 1: got four fastest laps in the second half of the season,
20:40
Speaker 1: exactly got exactly the result. How many sprint wins, Yeah,
20:42
Speaker 1: unfortunately didn't get it, lost all the sprints. A really
20:45
Speaker 1: dropped the ball on the short.
20:47
Speaker 2: Races for a brilliant's career as as he had. And
20:53
Speaker 2: this is a massive grape I've got against all the grades,
20:55
Speaker 2: show fan jo Ascari Clark Stuart Center Schumacher. None of
21:00
Speaker 2: them between them have scored as many sprint winds as
21:04
Speaker 2: makes the stuff, and so it's clearly as the goat.
21:05
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean oliven Oscar has more sprint wins that
21:08
Speaker 1: Zenna lifts cos of f one do better. I think
21:15
Speaker 1: there is something interesting in that. I think as well
21:18
Speaker 1: the fact that, I mean, that's something that they are
21:19
Speaker 1: now willing to think about is kind of interesting as well,
21:23
Speaker 1: that they're allowing themselves not to target it, because obviously
21:26
Speaker 1: that would be risky psychologically, I think when the bar
21:28
Speaker 1: is so high, but to say, well, if we do
21:30
Speaker 1: get everything right, then that is possible. Then we consider
21:33
Speaker 1: the fact, like you say, it may not even need
21:35
Speaker 1: three DNFs for Max to make it more realistic. Even
21:38
Speaker 1: one would suddenly bring it down to less than two
21:40
Speaker 1: race victories, and all of a sudden it becomes a
21:43
Speaker 1: much more race by race prospect because all of a sudden,
21:45
Speaker 1: Norris can afford to finish maybe second one weekend doesn't
21:48
Speaker 1: need to be absolutely perfect, or the sprints don't need
21:51
Speaker 1: to be nailed, or the fastest laps aren't required. So
21:53
Speaker 1: that's kind of interesting. And then you consider, well, Mersages
21:55
Speaker 1: had an off weekend. I don't think anyone expects them
21:57
Speaker 1: to be as far off the pace they wear this
21:58
Speaker 1: weekend in future round. If they can get between that gap,
22:02
Speaker 1: that may be significant between McLaren and Red Bull Racing.
22:05
Speaker 1: Suddenly it's not a matter of winning every race with
22:07
Speaker 1: Max and standing second. You can gain way more ground
22:10
Speaker 1: and then Ferrari they always seem to turn up in Monzo,
22:12
Speaker 1: could make a difference there. So there are lots of
22:14
Speaker 1: elements in a season as close and as unpredictable as
22:18
Speaker 1: this that can still work in Norris's favor. Particularly, and
22:21
Speaker 1: this is the point that needs to be underscored if
22:23
Speaker 1: McLaren has a car that is now just the one
22:25
Speaker 1: to beat at every track, because that is the first
22:28
Speaker 1: step really to try and to win every race or
22:30
Speaker 1: to get enough points overhaul this seventy point gap. So
22:34
Speaker 1: it's going to be interesting to see. It is a
22:35
Speaker 1: long shot, but it is alive.
22:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, And throw into the mix a little bit of
22:41
Speaker 2: wildcard from Oscar, potentially bumping Max back a place or two,
22:46
Speaker 2: and suddenly those five or three or whatever point margins
22:51
Speaker 2: between positions get a little bit elongated and the gap
22:55
Speaker 2: comes down a little bit more quickly than it might
22:57
Speaker 2: have otherwise. So one two is from a plan right
23:00
Speaker 2: now will be very, very powerful in both championships.
23:03
Speaker 1: Let's move on now to some other stories from the
23:06
Speaker 1: Dutch Grand Prix. We've mentioned Oscar Piastre wasn't quite on
23:10
Speaker 1: Landon Norris's level this weekend, but really his race was
23:13
Speaker 1: compromised by traffic, and this sort of speaks to two things. Really, One,
23:17
Speaker 1: it is harder to pass at Zandvort than maybe we
23:19
Speaker 1: would have thought judged him by how quickly Lando Norris
23:22
Speaker 1: passed Max Withstaffan, but also speaks to the fact that
23:24
Speaker 1: Red Bull didn't really nail it's set up this weekend.
23:27
Speaker 1: The Staffan was caring a lot of drag which made
23:29
Speaker 1: him super easy to pass in a straight line, whereas
23:31
Speaker 1: George Russell was configured in a regular way which made
23:34
Speaker 1: him much more difficult to pass. But I want to
23:36
Speaker 1: start with actually the Red Bull angle on this and
23:38
Speaker 1: talk about Sergio Perez, because as we've been billing for months,
23:42
Speaker 1: he remains under question at Red Bull Racing, as does
23:45
Speaker 1: Daniel Ricardo, who will talk about in just a second.
23:49
Speaker 1: This was a more steady performance for Sergio Perez, so
23:54
Speaker 1: he didn't have any of the low lights of crashing
23:56
Speaker 1: out in Q one, for example, or really terrible race pace,
24:01
Speaker 1: but did come painfully close to being last in class,
24:05
Speaker 1: finished only ahead of the Mercedes drivers among the front runners,
24:07
Speaker 1: and that was partly gifted to him by the fact
24:10
Speaker 1: that George Russell made this strange second stop because he'd
24:12
Speaker 1: been over using his tires. I think even if he'd
24:14
Speaker 1: been over using his tires, he probably didn't need to
24:16
Speaker 1: make the second stop. But me said he says he does.
24:18
Speaker 1: And Lewis Hamilton, of course, was knocked out in Q
24:20
Speaker 1: two in a pretty unpregertable qualifying session. We're one race
24:23
Speaker 1: in and I'm always cautious about doing this absolutely race
24:26
Speaker 1: by race because it's going to be a bigger picture
24:28
Speaker 1: that decides ultimately what happens with Sergio Perez. But this
24:31
Speaker 1: first race back after everything that happened over the mid
24:33
Speaker 1: season breakover all the talk and speculation, what was your
24:36
Speaker 1: read of his weekend?
24:39
Speaker 2: It was an interesting one because there's two ways of
24:41
Speaker 2: looking at it. The first and perhaps more optimistic way
24:46
Speaker 2: is to look at it and realistically before the race.
24:49
Speaker 2: We can only look at FP two because FP one
24:51
Speaker 2: was mixed conditions. FP three was effectively canceled after Sarge
24:57
Speaker 2: and threw at the scenery, and in that session in
25:02
Speaker 2: free practice too, Sergio Perez was eight tenths off the
25:07
Speaker 2: fastest lap, six tenths slower the max of Staff, and
25:11
Speaker 2: if you translate that into the race, he was seventeen
25:13
Speaker 2: or nineteen seconds by. He was effectively a pit stop
25:16
Speaker 2: behind his teammate, and as you say, almost worst in
25:21
Speaker 2: class in that you know, the only of Mercedes, and
25:23
Speaker 2: the Mercedes were unusually poor by their own recent form
25:28
Speaker 2: in Zandvort. Conversely, Ferrari was surprisingly competitive by their own
25:33
Speaker 2: form in Zaandvort, So that's an unusual one in itself.
25:36
Speaker 2: But you know, realistically Sergio should have been fifth or
25:43
Speaker 2: realistically fourth, with Piastre perhaps third, those two ahead of
25:47
Speaker 2: the two Ferraris. So Ferrari overperformed, Mercedes underformed, and by
25:51
Speaker 2: that margin, I think you've got to say that Sergio
25:55
Speaker 2: again underperformed. You can't afford to be seventeen seconds back
26:01
Speaker 2: from your teammate when you're in this competitive championship, right,
26:07
Speaker 2: I say that well in the knowledge that Oscar Piastre
26:10
Speaker 2: was twenty seven seconds back from his teammate, and I
26:14
Speaker 2: don't think that was good enough. There were mitigating circumstances there,
26:17
Speaker 2: but ultimately he was the master of his own demise.
26:20
Speaker 2: He wasn't good enough in qualifying. That put him slightly
26:23
Speaker 2: out of position. He had a poor start that complicated that,
26:26
Speaker 2: and I've ultimately dictated his race. Sergio Perez in the
26:30
Speaker 2: same token, in the same vein Rather, he didn't qualify
26:33
Speaker 2: well enough. He was only fifth. So to qualify fifth
26:37
Speaker 2: and finish sixth's that's not good enough. Max started second
26:44
Speaker 2: to finish second, you know, that's the minimum you would expect,
26:48
Speaker 2: just a whole, steady, whole position where you work by
26:51
Speaker 2: the same token oscopiastri if you started third finish fourth,
26:54
Speaker 2: So that wasn't good enough. I do feel like I'm
26:57
Speaker 2: being harsh, But when you're talk talking about the best
27:01
Speaker 2: teams in the World Championship, we should arguably talking about
27:07
Speaker 2: probably the drivers that are within the top half dozen
27:10
Speaker 2: in the sport. I'm not going to say the top four,
27:13
Speaker 2: because you know that's a do it to service to
27:14
Speaker 2: the likes of Charlat Clair and Lewis Hamilton, those sorts
27:17
Speaker 2: of guys. But these these are the very best in
27:21
Speaker 2: their game and they're getting absolutely battered by their teammate,
27:25
Speaker 2: particularly Sergio Perez. Again, Oscar, you can put that to
27:28
Speaker 2: one side because there was MIDI game circumstances there, but
27:31
Speaker 2: that Sergio, I mean, how long it's been going on
27:35
Speaker 2: the problem is as well, who do you replace him with?
27:38
Speaker 2: Who do you put in that car and confidently say,
27:42
Speaker 2: if we had X in that car in Zandvoort, they'd
27:47
Speaker 2: have finished fifth or fourth or third behind Max. There's
27:53
Speaker 2: no one.
27:54
Speaker 1: That is the big question for it will really, isn't it?
27:56
Speaker 1: Just before I explore that, I just want to I
27:58
Speaker 1: think the big compare Usinvosko Piastre is a good and
28:01
Speaker 1: interesting one that some people will point to. I think
28:03
Speaker 1: the difference between them was that Piastre was engaged for
28:07
Speaker 1: the entire race in this battle for third with Leclaire
28:09
Speaker 1: and with Russell, and finished just behind Leclair like he
28:11
Speaker 1: lost out in that battle the gap to Lando Nicks.
28:14
Speaker 1: There are reasons why it was so large, but he
28:16
Speaker 1: was always battling forwards, whereas Sergio Perez finished behind. I
28:20
Speaker 1: think it is the damning part Carlos Science who started
28:22
Speaker 1: tenth on the grid, so five places behind him, came
28:25
Speaker 1: painfully close to finishing behind George Russell, who did start
28:27
Speaker 1: ahead of him fine, but then was only ten seconds
28:29
Speaker 1: or less than ten seconds ahead of Lewis Hamilton, who
28:31
Speaker 1: started even further back in fourteenth. And I think you
28:33
Speaker 1: can just see over the course of a race story.
28:35
Speaker 1: Of course, there are gaps to teammates and things, but
28:37
Speaker 1: there is also the movement of the driver in an
28:40
Speaker 1: overall race time sense up or down the field, and
28:43
Speaker 1: consistently we see similar to in Belgium where okay, he
28:46
Speaker 1: still finished in that top eight cars, just didn't finish
28:49
Speaker 1: way out of points or anything, but the movement of
28:51
Speaker 1: his car was just backwards through the race. And I
28:53
Speaker 1: think that is the problem because then you get races
28:56
Speaker 1: when Mercedes will turn up as they probably will this weekend,
28:59
Speaker 1: and suddenly there's no buffer. He'll just be finishing eighth
29:01
Speaker 1: and that's not going to be enough points, as you said.
29:03
Speaker 1: But to come back to that driver market question, that
29:06
Speaker 1: driver rotation question for Red Bull this weekend started with
29:09
Speaker 1: an interesting storyline being that Helmet Marco, who is not
29:14
Speaker 1: supposed to be a spokesperson for the Red Bull program,
29:16
Speaker 1: but he does like to speak for the Red Bull program.
29:19
Speaker 1: Speaking to the Austrian media, climbs a tool the Gratz newspaper.
29:22
Speaker 1: I think it is said the line that Liam Lawson
29:25
Speaker 1: will definitely be in one of our cars next year.
29:28
Speaker 1: Now that surprising. That seems like the way it's been
29:31
Speaker 1: going for most of the year. But this is the
29:34
Speaker 1: first time someone at red Bull has actually said it.
29:36
Speaker 1: Even only a couple of weeks ago, Marco only said, oh,
29:38
Speaker 1: you'll see in September. It wasn't as definitive as this.
29:41
Speaker 1: This was a definitive statement, which obviously puts Daniel Ricardo
29:44
Speaker 1: most on notice because he's the only driver currently without
29:46
Speaker 1: a contract in that stable. But obviously, in the context
29:48
Speaker 1: for everything we've said, Sergio Perry's is also under threat
29:51
Speaker 1: here too. He's not secure at the end of the
29:54
Speaker 1: year despite having a contract. Fast forward to the end
29:56
Speaker 1: of Friday, after FP two, Christian Horner gives an interview
29:59
Speaker 1: to Sports where he says, and I did references and
30:01
Speaker 1: start the show. No, no, no, Helmut did not say
30:04
Speaker 1: one of our teams. He said a team. It could
30:06
Speaker 1: be any team, which I did enjoy. It's very Lionel
30:09
Speaker 1: Huts move. But he gave it a good crack and
30:12
Speaker 1: I guess it. I guess it kind of worked and
30:15
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, but it does turn out, of course
30:17
Speaker 1: that Liam Lwson have already talked about could be in
30:19
Speaker 1: the frame below. To Williams, seems like maybe that's not
30:20
Speaker 1: the favorite option, but I guess that was on the
30:23
Speaker 1: cards potentially. It just underlines a couple of things for me. One,
30:27
Speaker 1: as you say, absolutely, there just seems to be a
30:31
Speaker 1: lack of clarity on what the team wants to do
30:33
Speaker 1: with all of its drivers. It's not a clear option.
30:35
Speaker 1: That's fine. I guess we have the course of a
30:36
Speaker 1: season to figure that out. It doesn't have to be
30:38
Speaker 1: decided right now. Although there is a deadline on Liam
30:41
Speaker 1: Lawson's contact in September, though arguably is he going to
30:44
Speaker 1: go if you don't meet that deadline. So there's a
30:46
Speaker 1: bit of that as well. But then there is also
30:48
Speaker 1: this added element of different parts of the Red Bull
30:52
Speaker 1: program pulling in different directions. There's obviously no doubt the
30:55
Speaker 1: Helbert Marco is backing to young drivers because that's always
30:57
Speaker 1: been his remit being the head of the Red Bull
30:59
Speaker 1: June Your team, and Lim Lawson's one of them. But
31:01
Speaker 1: then there's Christian Horner, who obviously wants his say in
31:04
Speaker 1: the overall things, being the team principal of the Red
31:06
Speaker 1: Bull Racing Team, the senior team. Are we only clearer
31:10
Speaker 1: to really knowing how any of this is going to go, Matt,
31:12
Speaker 1: because I think, as I've been saying for months, it's
31:14
Speaker 1: extremely difficult to read, and this weekend, I mean, considering
31:18
Speaker 1: everything that all the chief players said, seems to matter
31:21
Speaker 1: any more complicated.
31:22
Speaker 2: The simple answer to that question is no. Basically, it's
31:29
Speaker 2: interesting if you really stop and think about this, you
31:33
Speaker 2: look at all the players in this game, who's the
31:37
Speaker 2: one that's got the most power. I argue it's Liam
31:41
Speaker 2: Lawson because if Liam goes elsewhere, and you know, by
31:52
Speaker 2: mid September, he's potentially got the contractual ability to do that.
31:57
Speaker 2: If he goes elsewhere, what does Red Bull have. Let's
32:02
Speaker 2: spin this out beyond even next year. Let's spin this
32:06
Speaker 2: out five years. Five years time will Max for stuff
32:09
Speaker 2: and be there maybe maybe not? Probably not Realistically, If
32:16
Speaker 2: he said he's already halfway through his career, or more
32:18
Speaker 2: than halfway through his career, potentially he'll have already retired.
32:21
Speaker 2: So Jo Perry certainly won't be there. Daniel Ricardo certainly
32:23
Speaker 2: won't be their Uki Sonoda certainly won't be there. So
32:26
Speaker 2: in five years time, of the current fleet of youngsters
32:29
Speaker 2: or fleet of drivers that Red Buller's got, Liam Lawson
32:34
Speaker 2: is the most logical one to be there for any
32:36
Speaker 2: sort of period of time beyond him, Isaac Hajar or
32:40
Speaker 2: some of the real juniors. So you're not just talking
32:43
Speaker 2: about the immediate future here, you're talking longer term stability
32:48
Speaker 2: in Red Bulls program. Who is someone that you can
32:53
Speaker 2: start to build the program around because they're in this
32:56
Speaker 2: transitional phase. It does happen every now and then with
32:58
Speaker 2: Red Bulls programs the way, but this seems to be
33:03
Speaker 2: somewhat more chaotic or urgent than it's been in the past.
33:08
Speaker 2: So I argue that Liam Lawson has the most power
33:13
Speaker 2: in that because if he decides that he just doesn't
33:15
Speaker 2: want to drive, I don't know if he can and
33:17
Speaker 2: refuse a Red Bull drive in his contract. And by
33:21
Speaker 2: Red Bull Drive, I'm referring to Red Bull Racing or RB.
33:25
Speaker 2: All Red bull drivers have a contract with Red Bull
33:28
Speaker 2: Racing and then a loaned out to RB. I argue
33:31
Speaker 2: that Liam is in a really, really powerful position in
33:33
Speaker 2: this conversation. Now, Helmet Marko is the man I understand
33:40
Speaker 2: that makes the driver discussions decisions. Rather once upon a
33:48
Speaker 2: time that was a discussion with Dietrich manerships. Obviously he's
33:51
Speaker 2: no longer there, so now he deals with a couple
33:54
Speaker 2: of people in Red Bulls management. There's three streams to
33:58
Speaker 2: the business as the drinks business, in investments business, and
34:04
Speaker 2: there's another business there that I can't remember. There's effectively
34:06
Speaker 2: four people that are part of a panel that make
34:09
Speaker 2: driver decisions. Christian Horner isn't part of that. I guess
34:14
Speaker 2: Christian's job is, you know, he's got this pool of drivers,
34:17
Speaker 2: he puts them where he wants, be that Rebel Racing
34:20
Speaker 2: or RB. That's my understanding. I could be wrong, but
34:22
Speaker 2: that's my understanding from a couple of conversations I've had
34:24
Speaker 2: with people connected in and around, not specifically Christian or Helmet,
34:29
Speaker 2: but people in and around that program who have first
34:32
Speaker 2: hand experience of it and recent first hand experience of it. So, yeah,
34:40
Speaker 2: it's a fascinating scenario because Red Bull is going to
34:44
Speaker 2: lose a Constructors Championship and more the point, Sergio Perrys
34:47
Speaker 2: is going to lose a Constructors championship for Red Bull.
34:51
Speaker 2: The underlying argument there is that Rebel didn't develop a
34:53
Speaker 2: fast enough car, but at the same time it didn't
34:57
Speaker 2: employ a fast enough driver. So who do you replace
35:02
Speaker 2: him with? As I touched on before, who can you
35:04
Speaker 2: put into that car and confidently say they're going to
35:08
Speaker 2: go faster? I maintain that Daniel Ricardo. Putting him in
35:11
Speaker 2: that car there's potentially higher highs, but I think on
35:17
Speaker 2: average at the moment he's probably a little bit below
35:20
Speaker 2: where Sergio Perez is and as a result, that's a
35:23
Speaker 2: massive gamble. You're potentially going to you potentially lose a
35:27
Speaker 2: championship anyway, but you may hasten that loss and exaggerate
35:30
Speaker 2: that loss by promoting him. He's a bigger risk than
35:32
Speaker 2: staying where they are putting Lewis Liam Lawson into that seat.
35:38
Speaker 2: You're putting a kid who's got five Grand Prix to
35:41
Speaker 2: his name, and he might prove to be a Grand
35:43
Speaker 2: Prix winner and as good as maximstaf or so Jo
35:45
Speaker 2: Perez a Sebastian Vettel in time, but as we're seeing
35:50
Speaker 2: with Oscar PSD, even the brightest young stars need time.
35:56
Speaker 2: As a result, putting him into that Rebell probably not
35:59
Speaker 2: going to be as good as Sergio peis, and at
36:01
Speaker 2: the same time, you're heaping so much pressure on him,
36:04
Speaker 2: you're basically promoting him and saying, god on, win us
36:06
Speaker 2: the World Championship. If you don't, you failed, And that's
36:09
Speaker 2: a hell of an ask, even for Red Bull. That's
36:12
Speaker 2: that's more brutal than I think Red buller. So, yeah,
36:16
Speaker 2: they're kind of stuck, aren't they. Okay, we know Sergio
36:20
Speaker 2: isn't guaranteed to the end of the year, but effectively
36:23
Speaker 2: is because there's no better option out there. There really isn't.
36:28
Speaker 1: I think the best outcome for Red Bull actually is
36:31
Speaker 1: to lose control of the constructors standings in September or
36:35
Speaker 1: whenever soon, because I do feel like once that happens,
36:38
Speaker 1: the pressures off, isn't it Like if.
36:40
Speaker 2: You're already control, they've already lost control.
36:42
Speaker 1: Well they have, But when the number actually ticks over, right,
36:45
Speaker 1: Like when the number actually ticks over and Red Bull
36:48
Speaker 1: is no longer for the first time since twenty twenty
36:50
Speaker 1: two whatever it was, no longer at the top of
36:52
Speaker 1: the Constructors Championship, then the pressure is off because whether
36:56
Speaker 1: or not you keep surge paiers doesn't matter. If the
36:57
Speaker 1: constructor champion is over, you know you've lost control of
36:59
Speaker 1: those points. You may as well put in Daniel Ricardo.
37:03
Speaker 1: Therefore you can put in Liam Lawson at RB, and therefore,
37:06
Speaker 1: if Ricardo doesn't impress, Lawson has another half season of
37:09
Speaker 1: experience to put into Red Bull Racing, then you can
37:11
Speaker 1: put Hadjar into RB and suddenly that logjam you talk to,
37:15
Speaker 1: or that potential blockage is just alleviated, and suddenly the
37:18
Speaker 1: Red Bull program is flowing again. But this paralysis, this inaction,
37:23
Speaker 1: just means that potentially the team loses everything by the
37:26
Speaker 1: end of the year. It loses control of its drivers
37:27
Speaker 1: as well as the championship, maybe even the driver's championship.
37:29
Speaker 1: Who knows, bax of Staffan could walk in another year.
37:32
Speaker 1: It all goes wrong. Sometimes it's better to just make
37:36
Speaker 1: a decision than to let the whole thing languish and
37:39
Speaker 1: let it fall out of control, fall it out of
37:41
Speaker 1: your grasp. So I do wonder whether that's something that's
37:43
Speaker 1: being talked about for me. This race didn't seem massively
37:46
Speaker 1: different to the ones before the mid season break. Daniel
37:48
Speaker 1: Carter didn't have a great qualifying, had a pretty good race,
37:50
Speaker 1: Yukisonoda had a bad strategy, maybe you would have finished ahead.
37:53
Speaker 1: But Ricardo's pace was pretty good anyway and was in
37:56
Speaker 1: contingent for a point at the very end, and the
37:57
Speaker 1: weekend at RB wasn't really a top ten car, So
38:01
Speaker 1: the picture for me days pretty much the same. Nothing
38:03
Speaker 1: much changed at the Dutch Grand Prix, so it'll be
38:06
Speaker 1: interesting to see this evolve. But as we say, the
38:08
Speaker 1: deadline feels like it's a four race kind of thing,
38:10
Speaker 1: so it'll be certainly something to revisit as we head
38:12
Speaker 1: towards Singapore. Matt, before we wrap this up, it is time,
38:16
Speaker 1: of course, the alternative Championship. We haven't been doing during
38:19
Speaker 1: Jack doing special obviously because he'd have got all the
38:22
Speaker 1: points for us. But it is evolving week by week.
38:25
Speaker 2: It've lost all the points, let's be we tend to
38:27
Speaker 2: take them away more than we give them.
38:28
Speaker 1: That's true. This is a very negative championship, but it
38:31
Speaker 1: could change over time. You know, it's up to the people,
38:33
Speaker 1: not to us. It's up to the people in the
38:35
Speaker 1: championship to do positive things if they want more points. Matt,
38:38
Speaker 1: I'll let you start this week. Who's leading the way
38:42
Speaker 1: for you on the Championship scale.
38:44
Speaker 2: Well, given that we're just talking about positivity, I'm glad
38:47
Speaker 2: you brought that up because I'm going to start with
38:48
Speaker 2: a negative, and it is a negative. But I think
38:55
Speaker 2: I've been very soft, however you want to describe it.
39:02
Speaker 2: I was very inclined to take three million points off
39:10
Speaker 2: because that's roughly the amount of damage dollar value that
39:14
Speaker 2: Logan Sergeant has done for Williams this year. So I
39:17
Speaker 2: was tempted to dop Logan Sergeant three million points, especially racing. Well, yeah,
39:25
Speaker 2: I mean, I mean he's got to Wednesday to call
39:28
Speaker 2: it that mad look in the ends. I didn't go
39:32
Speaker 2: to that extreme because I thought that was a bit
39:34
Speaker 2: that was a bit ridiculous. I have docked him thirty
39:37
Speaker 2: seven points because that's his tenure in Formula one. I
39:40
Speaker 2: don't think he's lived up to expectations. So yeah, I've
39:44
Speaker 2: given Logan Sergeant minus thirty seven points, mostly for his
39:48
Speaker 2: crash in in pre practicery because that's okay. I get
39:53
Speaker 2: the conditions are tricky, but you're racing in Formula one. Mate,
39:56
Speaker 2: you drove over some wet grass. Of course you're going
39:58
Speaker 2: to get speared at the wall on the other side.
40:00
Speaker 2: But that was just an inexcusable driver error in a
40:04
Speaker 2: session where you shouldn't have been taking risk.
40:06
Speaker 1: Especially FP three, knowing that puts pressure on qualifying as
40:09
Speaker 1: it did, and he didn't enter it, not to mention
40:11
Speaker 1: it was carrying a car fully upgraded after the mid
40:14
Speaker 1: season break, so you can understand where.
40:15
Speaker 2: Were illegally upgraded as well. So maybe he's saved some
40:18
Speaker 2: more blushes.
40:19
Speaker 1: Well, he has it turned out, so maybe for the best.
40:20
Speaker 1: Otherwise it would have been a double disqualification, would even
40:23
Speaker 1: even more embarrassed. I don't know, equally embarrassed. But I'm also.
40:27
Speaker 2: The points in that one.
40:28
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm also taking points off fifty points off Christian
40:32
Speaker 1: Horner for his defensive combative interview with Sky Supports in
40:36
Speaker 1: F one. So that's one in which he attempted to
40:39
Speaker 1: rephrase Helmet Marco's own words, which were written down in print.
40:43
Speaker 1: I guess that either means he's casting doubt on the
40:45
Speaker 1: newspaper to whom Helmer Marco talks regularly, so I think
40:48
Speaker 1: it's unlikely that they've taken out of context, or of course,
40:51
Speaker 1: is just trying to rewrite the narrative he had to go.
40:54
Speaker 1: I didn't like his performance in that interview. Generally, I
40:56
Speaker 1: thought he didn't respond that well to some pretty good questions,
40:59
Speaker 1: in particular for Bernie Collins, who essentially asked, what's happened
41:02
Speaker 1: to your team, Christian, and he didn't really like that.
41:06
Speaker 1: I just didn't think at a time the team is
41:09
Speaker 1: under some pressure, regardless of whether it's all the off
41:12
Speaker 1: track stuff that he doesn't want to talk about or
41:13
Speaker 1: even just the on track stuff. Didn't think he responded
41:16
Speaker 1: that well. I guess the helmet mark was a different
41:18
Speaker 1: part of it, but I just thought the way he
41:20
Speaker 1: tried to walk that one back was worthy of some
41:22
Speaker 1: points off.
41:23
Speaker 2: I wish I'd thought of that because I would have
41:24
Speaker 2: actually given some points to Sky there, because that's one
41:27
Speaker 2: of the most awkward nieces of television I've seen this year.
41:31
Speaker 2: If you can go and find that interview, it was
41:34
Speaker 2: after two go to KO.
41:36
Speaker 1: I can absolutely recommend to open your KO Sports. Yeah,
41:40
Speaker 1: it was after it.
41:41
Speaker 2: It was cringe worthy and it went on much longer
41:45
Speaker 2: than it felt like. It was great. It was great.
41:50
Speaker 2: I genuinely enjoyed that. Yeah, it's sort of a little
41:53
Speaker 2: bit faulty towers about it, wasn't it? You watch it
41:55
Speaker 2: because it's cringe worthy, I think as well.
41:57
Speaker 1: Anytime someone being grilled just tries to ask the question
42:00
Speaker 1: back to the interviewer, they've lost the interview. Yes, like
42:03
Speaker 1: you're out of answers.
42:04
Speaker 2: So yeah, absolutely, And I'd also just like to point
42:08
Speaker 2: out that their their comps manager wasn't in Zaandvort.
42:11
Speaker 1: Oh there you go.
42:12
Speaker 2: Maybe it wasn't briefed.
42:13
Speaker 1: Well, clearly he needs his concept.
42:16
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, some stories there, all right. Next, I'm going
42:24
Speaker 2: to I'm going to take some more points off because
42:26
Speaker 2: that's just the way we roll. I'm going to take
42:29
Speaker 2: twenty four points off, hass because that's the number of
42:31
Speaker 2: hours they were late leaving leaving Zandvort. I don't think
42:37
Speaker 2: we need to take the full nine million off them.
42:38
Speaker 1: Like to take the nine million points if you convert
42:41
Speaker 1: them to Australian points even.
42:43
Speaker 2: More, well, we're gonna have to run a conversion on
42:49
Speaker 2: this championship. Yeah. Ultimately they got caught out a little bit.
42:55
Speaker 2: It was a little bit embarrassing. I don't feel too
42:58
Speaker 2: bad for you. Actually, I'm going to be definitely honest
43:00
Speaker 2: with you. But yeah, anytime you have bailiffs turning up
43:05
Speaker 2: in Formula one, a great story. It happens in Melbourne
43:10
Speaker 2: one year with sober if memories.
43:12
Speaker 1: It was I think it was. It was during the
43:14
Speaker 1: Guido Vanderguard Mounicia Carldenborn era. Yes, but it was I
43:18
Speaker 1: think it was bailiffs that wanted to make sure no
43:21
Speaker 1: one else drove the car because it was a petitioned
43:23
Speaker 1: by Guido Vanderguard saying he had a contractive memory serve.
43:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, and as a result that car sat out or
43:30
Speaker 2: maybe all of the today. Yeah, but yeah, I mean
43:35
Speaker 2: that's a few years ago now and that team is yep,
43:39
Speaker 2: come on, since.
43:40
Speaker 1: Then, and the rare honor of making the Victorian Supreme
43:43
Speaker 1: Courts hit on a weekend, no public holiday even I
43:46
Speaker 1: think you know memory.
43:49
Speaker 2: So yeah, twenty four points off for has for a
43:51
Speaker 2: little bit of egg on face.
43:53
Speaker 1: That's fair. I think that's fair. I'm taking twenty points
43:56
Speaker 1: off relatively arbitrary number, but I've wanted to take these
43:59
Speaker 1: points off for a while. Off Toto Wolf for constantly
44:02
Speaker 1: for the last eighteen months claiming the teams would be
44:05
Speaker 1: silly to pass up the opportunity to sign Mick Schumacher,
44:08
Speaker 1: despite having at his own team a seat open and
44:13
Speaker 1: not signing Mick Schumacher, who's already the team's reserve driver.
44:17
Speaker 1: I think he's warranted these points off for a while.
44:19
Speaker 1: Mick Schumacher may get this bonus opportunity to race Williams
44:22
Speaker 1: for nine rounds, but unfortunately Williams already has all its
44:25
Speaker 1: drivers for next year, so it's not going to be
44:27
Speaker 1: a full time drive. He's over in Wek with Elpine.
44:30
Speaker 1: But it just at some point it just strikes you
44:32
Speaker 1: as disingenuous, doesn't it.
44:34
Speaker 2: Well, Mick Schumacher, a driver so highly thought of the Alpine,
44:38
Speaker 2: opted from Jack Doing, and when given a chance for
44:40
Speaker 2: a substitute, Williams wanted Liam Lawson first. Yeah, I'm sorry.
44:44
Speaker 2: That tells you everything you need to know. I think
44:47
Speaker 2: about Mick Schumacher, colin driver in World Endurance Championship, far
44:50
Speaker 2: better driver than I'll ever be. But it's just not
44:53
Speaker 2: up to scratch in formulae. I think it's kind of
44:55
Speaker 2: that simple.
44:56
Speaker 1: I've always been just I mean, I want I always
44:58
Speaker 1: want to say this every time we talk. I do
45:00
Speaker 1: think he deserved a better shot at F one he
45:02
Speaker 1: had he shot, and I'm willing to Like you know,
45:04
Speaker 1: it's not easy to stay informed on That's part of
45:06
Speaker 1: the game. I think everything that we know about HASS,
45:08
Speaker 1: particularly since Iyokamatso has come to power at that team,
45:11
Speaker 1: and it does feel like it's a little bit more cohesive.
45:14
Speaker 1: I think racing at HASS, particularly in the ear he
45:16
Speaker 1: did the Nikkida Masaben era, the no money era, I
45:20
Speaker 1: don't think he had his best opportunity to show what
45:22
Speaker 1: he was capable of. But by that same token, I
45:25
Speaker 1: don't think there's any reason to think he necessarily deserves
45:27
Speaker 1: the seed over anyone else.
45:29
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, you've got to earn it on merit, and
45:31
Speaker 2: there are others who are more more deserving. I think
45:36
Speaker 2: quite negative, really haven't. Let's my last pick. I'm actually
45:40
Speaker 2: going to go a positive. I'm going to give fifteen
45:43
Speaker 2: points to to charl Leclair because I think he had
45:45
Speaker 2: a cracking race in in xample. He drove well, arguably
45:50
Speaker 2: outperformed the car, did well to keep the much faster
45:54
Speaker 2: McLaren behind him, and at no point was under sort
45:57
Speaker 2: of significant pressure. So just a good, calm composed drive
46:04
Speaker 2: somewhat unexpectedly so, Yeah, fifteen points for Charlotte Clay, which
46:08
Speaker 2: places him surprisingly high on the championship table.
46:12
Speaker 1: It really speaks to not how we're handing out the points,
46:15
Speaker 1: doesn't it Now I'm struggling with the number for this
46:19
Speaker 1: last one, but I'm going to go with ten just
46:21
Speaker 1: because it's a nice round number and it's also a
46:23
Speaker 1: positive one. I'm going to give ten points to valtrie Botass,
46:27
Speaker 1: not for any particular action, just because he drives for Sauber,
46:31
Speaker 1: which is no good had its worst weekend of the year.
46:36
Speaker 1: Qualified two and a half seconds off the pace in
46:40
Speaker 1: qualifying and Baltrie Botas. I have to go back and
46:43
Speaker 1: check the numbers. But at one point in the race,
46:45
Speaker 1: late in the race, I looked at timing charts, he
46:47
Speaker 1: was sixteen seconds off the back of the pack. I
46:50
Speaker 1: think Joe Brannu was thirty seconds behind him. And that's
46:54
Speaker 1: no judgment on these drivers. This is the state of
46:57
Speaker 1: the future Audi car three Botasters is better than that.
47:01
Speaker 1: He's a multiple race win, a multiple pole and podium ghetto.
47:04
Speaker 1: He wasn't a SADES driver as well, contributed to the
47:06
Speaker 1: championships there. I thought he was onto a good thing
47:08
Speaker 1: when he switched to Alpha Romeo that first season the
47:10
Speaker 1: new rules. Look back, things were going up. Now he's
47:13
Speaker 1: only hope of staying in form of the one is
47:14
Speaker 1: to commit to this team for another year of finishing last.
47:18
Speaker 1: I think ten points he deserves. It will move him
47:20
Speaker 1: up in the actual championship only a few places. But
47:22
Speaker 1: I just felt bad for him this weekend because I
47:25
Speaker 1: just found myself thinking he's better than this.
47:28
Speaker 2: I mean that the hair cut alone is worth ten
47:30
Speaker 2: points on a quiet week. I think I'm going to
47:34
Speaker 2: give him ten points for a heck, so if you
47:37
Speaker 2: if I ever give Voutrie Botas ten points just for
47:39
Speaker 2: some random you know, I've scraped the bottom of the barrel,
47:42
Speaker 2: as we do so often with this alternative champions Yeah,
47:44
Speaker 2: I like that. I like that's that's a that's fair.
47:49
Speaker 2: He's third in the championship. Now he finished second. Did
47:52
Speaker 2: you see that? Did you see he finished second on
47:53
Speaker 2: the week?
47:54
Speaker 1: Yes?
47:54
Speaker 2: I did so.
47:55
Speaker 1: We've already taken points off the graphics department at F one,
47:57
Speaker 1: I think, so don't need any wrong points off now
48:00
Speaker 1: be somewhere in probably in the middle.
48:02
Speaker 2: They're just outside the top ten.
48:04
Speaker 1: There you go. All right, Well, on that note, that's
48:06
Speaker 1: all the time we have for Pittalk this week, but
48:08
Speaker 1: we will be back next week. Trap up all the
48:10
Speaker 1: action from the Italian Grand Prix. You can subscribe to
48:12
Speaker 1: pittalk wherever you get your favorite podcasts, and leave us
48:14
Speaker 1: a rating and review as well. While you're there, you
48:16
Speaker 1: can also keep up to date with the latest one
48:18
Speaker 1: news throughout the week and the round at Foxsports dot
48:21
Speaker 1: com dot Au and Speedcafe dot Com. From Matt Castion
48:24
Speaker 1: me Michael Lamonado. Thanks very much for your company. We'll
48:27
Speaker 1: catch you next week.