Latest / Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families / #1063 - Hurting Kids on Purpose

Transcript

#1063 - Hurting Kids on Purpose · Dr Justin Coulson's Happy Families

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  Speaker 1: It's the Happy Family's podcast.
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  Speaker 2: It's the podcast for the time poor parent who just
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  Speaker 2: once answers.
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  Speaker 1: Mew so Kylie. I read recently that forty percent, forty
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  Speaker 1: percent of the world's population uses a meta platform Facebook, Instagram,
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  Speaker 1: WhatsApp every single day, about three about three point twenty
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  Speaker 1: five billion people daily on meta I.
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  Speaker 3: Actually thought that it would have been a higher number.
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  Speaker 3: To be honest, Well who doesn't.
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  Speaker 1: Well, yeah, but we're talking globally across the entire planet,
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  Speaker 1: forty percent of the world's population three point twenty five
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  Speaker 1: billion people daily. In today's podcast, Facebook is not your friend,
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  Speaker 1: and neither is TikTok or Instagram, and it's especially not
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  Speaker 1: your kid's friend. If you or your children are collateral
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  Speaker 1: damage in their quest to dominate the world and maximize
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  Speaker 1: shareholder value by increasing their market capitalization as much as possible,
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  Speaker 1: they're fine with that. That's the story today. Today, I
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  Speaker 1: want to tell you how we know that and what
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  Speaker 1: we can do about it, and point you to my website,
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  Speaker 1: Unplugged Childhood dot org to help you to protect your kids,
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  Speaker 1: not even going to try and sell you something.
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  Speaker 3: Raviiya used to work for Facebook. He was high up
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  Speaker 3: almost at the top Meta research manager. Now he's working
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  Speaker 3: at the usc Nearly Center for Leadership and Ethical Decision Making.
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  Speaker 1: Imagine going from Facebook to a center that's about leadership
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  Speaker 1: and ethical decision I love you.
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  Speaker 3: You're saying like polar opposites. RAVI has been talking with
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  Speaker 3: Jonathan Hate a lot lately, sharing his experiences with Meta
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  Speaker 3: and what their research found. And today we're going to
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  Speaker 3: unpack the latest post at after Babel Hates Substack.
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  Speaker 1: I love this substack. I'm not huge on reading blogs anymore,
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  Speaker 1: but Jonathan Hates substack is incredible. Go there, subscribe, get
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  Speaker 1: the emails once a week or once a fortnite, or
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  Speaker 1: whenever a post lands it well, it would just bring
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  Speaker 1: you across so much of what's going on when it
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  Speaker 1: comes to your children's online safety. This was compelling. Let
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  Speaker 1: me quote him just here. He said in the four
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  Speaker 1: years I worked there, speaking of Meta, I helped produce
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  Speaker 1: dozens of internal reports on the company's news feed algorithms.
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  Speaker 1: Despite finding evidence that optimizing for engagement often increases exposure
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  Speaker 1: to harassment, misinformation, and graphic content, Facebook continued to prioritize
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  Speaker 1: engagement over content quality as part of an effort to
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  Speaker 1: beat rivals like TikTok.
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  Speaker 3: He's not the first person to speak out.
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  Speaker 1: Now, There's been a number of whistleblowers in.
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  Speaker 3: Relation to their experiences working with these platforms, and I
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  Speaker 3: just find it staggering that you can be a part
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  Speaker 3: of something and literally have the data in your face
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  Speaker 3: on a day to day basis and not do anything
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  Speaker 3: about it.
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  Speaker 1: Well, he tried to let me continue with Ravia's words.
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  Speaker 1: He says that he's working with Minnesota lawmakers too, and again,
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  Speaker 1: I direct quote here focus on limiting experiences online that
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  Speaker 1: present the most harm to children and teens. Unwanted contact,
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  Speaker 1: especially from strangers, is chief among them. Social media platforms
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  Speaker 1: make it easy for bad actors to contact people they
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  Speaker 1: don't know, at scale and without accountability. Now, I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to stop my quote there. I just I want to
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  Speaker 1: read that again and just emphasize it's so easy to
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  Speaker 1: read the words and not think about the impact of this.
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  Speaker 1: Social media platforms make it easy for bad actors, in
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  Speaker 1: other words, pedophiles, people who want to take advantage of
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  Speaker 1: our children to contact people they don't know at scale
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  Speaker 1: and without accountability. It's frightening. It's frightening. He goes on
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  Speaker 1: to say this and again direct quote one in eight,
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  Speaker 1: and this is from internal data at Meta one in
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  Speaker 1: eight Instagram users under sixteen experiences unwanted sexual advances on
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  Speaker 1: the platform. Earlier this year, the FBI issued a public
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  Speaker 1: safety alert for at least twelve and a half thousand
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  Speaker 1: miners were the victims of sextortion on a range of
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  Speaker 1: social media sites, messaging platforms, and video games, motivated by
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  Speaker 1: sexual gratification or money, individual bad actors and organized groups.
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  Speaker 1: And this is the critical thing here. We've got organized
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  Speaker 1: crime syndicates operating on these platforms. Organized groups targeted young
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  Speaker 1: people co worse than me to creating and sharing explicit
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  Speaker 1: images and threatened to make the images public if the
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  Speaker 1: miners didn't continue producing explicit content or pay them a fee.
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  Speaker 1: And if that's not gut churning and sickening enough, let
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  Speaker 1: me just actually, why don't you read the next bok
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  Speaker 1: because I've been reading a lot.
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  Speaker 3: In a recent report I helped write, Minnesota Attorney General
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  Speaker 3: Keith Illison spotlighted harrowing testimonies received by his office. One
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  Speaker 3: miner reported that they received sexually explicit photos from men
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  Speaker 3: who added account. I did not need to add them
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  Speaker 3: back to see the image they had sent me. Another
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  Speaker 3: teen blocked people bullying him on Snapchat, yet they found
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  Speaker 3: ways to add me to group chats and continued the harassment.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, so the key thing here is it's not just
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  Speaker 1: about meta, and I've been clear about that all the way.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I think that meta they're at the bottom
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  Speaker 1: of the barrel, but there are a couple of other
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  Speaker 1: organizations with leadership who are right right alongside them, just
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  Speaker 1: sliding along the bottom of that icky, steamy, disgusting, filthy barrel.
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  Speaker 1: Last thing, last thing that ravi Aya said that I
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  Speaker 1: want to emphasize. He said this, in one leaked study,
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  Speaker 1: nearly a fifth of teens, so that's twenty percent. Nearly
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  Speaker 1: a fifth of teens saw sexually explicit content at least
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  Speaker 1: once a week on Instagram. AI recommendation systems optimized for clicks, likes,
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  Speaker 1: and time engaged rather than the quality of content. And
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  Speaker 1: as we founded Facebook, sometimes the most toxic content attracts
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  Speaker 1: the strongest responses, fueling the algorithms that show it to
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  Speaker 1: more people. So this is the thing. We've got evidence
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  Speaker 1: from whistleblowers, past employees, leaked documents that point to Mata
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  Speaker 1: and other executives at other companies as well. But I'm
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  Speaker 1: just going to pick on metaphor this one who are
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  Speaker 1: intentionally not doing what they promise us they will do
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  Speaker 1: protect our kids. It's just it's a lie when they
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  Speaker 1: say that they'll do it. It's mendacious, it's completely duplicitous.
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  Speaker 1: Facebook is not your friends. The stories that are abundant
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  Speaker 1: around this idea that they send their kids to schools
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  Speaker 1: where there's no devices and they don't use the platforms
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  Speaker 1: with their kids and in their families. But all these
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  Speaker 1: techno elites are literally responsible for devastation and misery in
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  Speaker 1: our young people. They think promises that they're going to
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  Speaker 1: do it better. They tell politicians not to legislate and
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  Speaker 1: that they'll self govern and set up systems, and it
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  Speaker 1: keeps on getting worse.
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  Speaker 3: But it's not just our kids, it's adults too. It's
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  Speaker 3: so hard to put your phone down, I know. And
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  Speaker 3: the challenge is that everything happens there now. The amount
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  Speaker 3: of times we've kind of suggested we're just going to
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  Speaker 3: leave our phone behind, yes, and then we get out
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  Speaker 3: and realize that we needed it for someone, or we
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  Speaker 3: get home and the kids have needed us and we
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  Speaker 3: haven't had our phones and haven't been our contact us exactly,
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  Speaker 3: you know, so it's really challenging. I feel like these
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  Speaker 3: devices have become what once was the back fence or
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  Speaker 3: the town square, the meeting place, and it's just so convenient.
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  Speaker 1: I'm so I love that you said the back fence.
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  Speaker 1: I remember as a kid, I'm talking when I was
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  Speaker 1: eight or nine, so early eighties, mid eighties, my grandma,
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  Speaker 1: my Nata Barnt, used to she'd go and hang up
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  Speaker 1: the washing on the hills hoist in the backyard on
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  Speaker 1: that quarter acre block in Auburn, and then she talked
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  Speaker 1: to Joyce over the back fence, like literally they'd stand
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  Speaker 1: there leaning against the fence and have a chin wag
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  Speaker 1: for half now. And they had the time to do
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  Speaker 1: that back then as well.
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  Speaker 3: I just yeah, I love it.
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  Speaker 1: But ultimately, what you're describing is it comes down to
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  Speaker 1: this thing called persuasive design, really insanely intensely smart design,
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  Speaker 1: and it points to the fact that there is good
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  Speaker 1: that's associated with them. Okay, you talk about this back
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  Speaker 1: fence or this meeting place or this town square or
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  Speaker 1: whatever it was that you said. It highlights that we
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  Speaker 1: can use these platforms and these devices in really pro social, optimal,
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  Speaker 1: positive ways. But our kids and we are predominantly not
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  Speaker 1: using them in those ways. Why because of the algorithm.
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  Speaker 1: And in fact, now that I say that, I want
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  Speaker 1: to share one more thing that Ravia said when he
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  Speaker 1: was talking about legislation that he's working on in Minnesota.
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  Speaker 1: He said that while age changes would probably be really helpful,
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  Speaker 1: in other words, keep kids off social media until they're older,
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  Speaker 1: and legislator around that, he says the best legislation will
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  Speaker 1: be about algorithms. I fell in love. I just love
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  Speaker 1: what he said here. He said laws must quote, we've
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  Speaker 1: got to focus on regulating the algorithmic design, not just
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  Speaker 1: moderating the content. And his why. He says strangers are
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  Speaker 1: able to contact miners online because social media companies choose
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  Speaker 1: to let them. Regulating what the stranger says is content moderation.
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  Speaker 1: Stopping that stranger from contacting a minor is a design choice.
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  Speaker 1: It's easy to stop harassment at the source rather than
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  Speaker 1: by trying to filter all the messages people exchange. Design
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  Speaker 1: approaches can also reduce free speech concerns, as they're not
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  Speaker 1: based on content itself that sentence, because social media companies
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  Speaker 1: choose to let them.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, that's devastating on every level.
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  Speaker 1: And that's why I wanted to have this conversation. That's
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  Speaker 1: why I wanted to emphasize Facebook, it's not your friend,
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  Speaker 1: neither any of the social media companies. They're interested in
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  Speaker 1: shareholder value, they're interested in market capitalization, they're interested in
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  Speaker 1: stock returns. That is it, after the break, what European
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  Speaker 1: Parliament is trying to do about this. So this podcast
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  Speaker 1: episode is called hurting Kids on Purpose the EVI it
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  Speaker 1: suggests that that's exactly what's going on. And Kylie European policymakers,
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  Speaker 1: I found this is such a great document. European policymakers
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  Speaker 1: are really concerned about how children interact with the digital world,
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  Speaker 1: and they've released the report emphasizing the importance of online safety.
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  Speaker 1: Obviously in digital literacy, we know this already for young people,
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  Speaker 1: but in the report they stress the need to protect
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  Speaker 1: children from online exploitation and manipulation like targeted advertising and
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  Speaker 1: data misuse. And they've made they've caught it a motion
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  Speaker 1: for a European Parliament Resolution on Addictive Design of Online Services.
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  Speaker 1: So what they're basically saying is, yes, this is about
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  Speaker 1: consumer protection, and yes this is about targeted advertising and
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  Speaker 1: data misuse. But fundamentally, what they want to do is
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  Speaker 1: they want to shut down the harmful elements of persuasive design.
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  Speaker 1: Familiar with persuasive design? Do you another term? No at all.
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  Speaker 3: I think I'm like most parents. I've never heard those
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  Speaker 3: words put together. I can make an assumption as to
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  Speaker 3: what you're talking about, but I've never heard so.
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  Speaker 1: Persuasive design is literally what RAVII is talking about, where
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  Speaker 1: he says the social media companies have designed their technology
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  Speaker 1: in such a way that certain things happen. So the
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  Speaker 1: persuasive element is how do we keep people's attention longer? Yep,
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  Speaker 1: everything that they've done is designed that way. I'm going
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  Speaker 1: to mention a handful of persuasive design items, and I'm
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  Speaker 1: going to see if you can explain them to me
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  Speaker 1: if you can. So, here are some persuasive design features
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  Speaker 1: for maximizing user attention. Number one auto play.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, so it just keeps playing. Yeah, Like as you scroll,
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  Speaker 3: it's playing.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, And that is set up so that as you
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  Speaker 1: scroll and it's already playing, it hooks you immediately. You
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  Speaker 1: don't have to make an intentional choice of press play
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  Speaker 1: that keeps you focused on the screen. That's what TikTok,
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  Speaker 1: and that's what Instagram, that's what they'll do. Even things
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  Speaker 1: like YouTube and Netflix or infinite scroll.
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  Speaker 3: Well, just keep scrolling.
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  Speaker 2: Stop.
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  Speaker 3: I do remember once upon a time you kind of
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  Speaker 3: got to the end of your feed.
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  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, about fifteen years ago, you could say I'm
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  Speaker 1: up to date. I actually know what everybody's doing in
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  Speaker 1: their lives. And now I can switch it off because
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  Speaker 1: there's nothing new that's happening.
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  Speaker 2: No.
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  Speaker 3: And what's interesting is if I've looked at something earlier
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  Speaker 3: and I want to find it, I just can't find
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  Speaker 3: it again. Like the scroll process just takes way too long.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, you know what these ones are? Push notifications and badgers.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah, you've just got these little notifications that come up
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  Speaker 3: and you push you a little button and say yes
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  Speaker 3: or no or whatever.
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  Speaker 1: Did you know in the early days, Facebook made them blue,
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  Speaker 1: nobody clicked on them. They made them red. Everyone thinks, oh,
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  Speaker 1: this must be important. We associate the color red with importance,
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  Speaker 1: and it promotes that sense of urgency and the fear
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  Speaker 1: of missing out, which means that people are going to
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  Speaker 1: check the app because they've been triggered to look at it,
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  Speaker 1: because they're concerned they're going to miss out well, and often.
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  Speaker 3: They're flashing too. They're kind of grabbing your attention and
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  Speaker 3: you just want them to stop.
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  Speaker 1: Here's another one, and again, this one kind of speaks
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  Speaker 1: for itself. Personalized recommendations and content feeds.
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  Speaker 3: Yes, I love that little thing at the end that says,
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  Speaker 3: do you want to see more of this?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah?
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  Speaker 1: Like, tell us how we can addict you even more,
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  Speaker 1: tell us how we can keep you here longer. The
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  Speaker 1: algorithms literally create content that's tailored to your preferences, which
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  Speaker 1: makes the content feel so deeply and profoundly relevant, and
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  Speaker 1: it keeps you engaged. Streaks. Can we just talk about
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  Speaker 1: streaks for a second. This is one of your favorites, now,
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  Speaker 1: isn't it.
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  Speaker 3: Well, it's hilarious obviously. I signed up to Snapchat a
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  Speaker 3: handful of months.
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  Speaker 1: Ago, and on the Happy Families podcast you did comment
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  Speaker 1: that you think that Snapchat is perhaps your favorite app
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  Speaker 1: of all time.
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  Speaker 3: I think I said that.
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  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure you were. I don't think I said that,
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  Speaker 1: but you said you loved it.
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  Speaker 3: I did have lots of fun with the kids.
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  Speaker 2: They downloaded it for me. They showed me all the
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  Speaker 2: filters and can I tell you, I have just had
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  Speaker 2: an absolute ball and the girls and I have gone
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  Speaker 2: back and forth with these crazy messages that just make
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  Speaker 2: me laugh.
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  Speaker 1: Well, welcome to the twenty first century.
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  Speaker 3: So in the beginning, I actually did really enjoy it.
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  Speaker 3: I loved playing with the filters, and it's heaps of
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  Speaker 3: fun to kind of just have that to and fro
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  Speaker 3: and the voice changing and all of that kind of stuff.
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  Speaker 3: But there are plenty of things that really frustrated me
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  Speaker 3: about the platform, and specifically those disappearing messages. I can
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  Speaker 3: see how in the wrong hands these could be devastating.
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  Speaker 1: This is the persuasive design element though. It keeps you connected,
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  Speaker 1: it keeps you engaging with the app in these ongoing ways.
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  Speaker 1: You've got rewards in games, you've got social validation with
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  Speaker 1: likes and comments and shares and follow accounts. These engagement
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  Speaker 1: features are persuasively designed variable rewards. I mean it really
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  Speaker 1: is about dope. Mean it is about the next hit.
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  Speaker 1: There's a couple of other things as well, the time
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  Speaker 1: sensitive content. If you don't look at it now, if
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  Speaker 1: you don't take advantage of it now, you've got disappearing messages,
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  Speaker 1: and the scarcity in the urgency and just the sound
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  Speaker 1: effects and the visuals. There are so many other things
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  Speaker 1: of the frictionalist design, the way that you just you're
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  Speaker 1: in and you're using it. They've made it so so easy.
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  Speaker 1: And the whole purpose of this podcast really is for
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  Speaker 1: me to say one clear thing, they're doing it on purpose.
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  Speaker 1: They're doing it on purpose, and they're not thinking about you.
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  Speaker 1: If you've got young kids, and when I say young kids,
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  Speaker 1: I mean kids under about twelve to fourteen, we really
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: do recommend you keep them away completely delay their access
• 15:24
  Speaker 1: as long as you can. Visit Unplugged childhood dot org
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: for more and sign the pledge. You could have listened
• 15:29
  Speaker 1: to our podcast interview last Wednesday with Danny Alachi from
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: the Head's Up Alliance learn more about keeping phones out
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: of our kids' hands. Just sign the pledge. Let's keep
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: our kids away from having a screen based childhood and
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: let them have a play based childhood instead.
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  Speaker 3: And as they get older, it's really about making sure
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  Speaker 3: that they've got things happening in their lives that are
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  Speaker 3: incompatible with their phone use. Right, if they're out busy
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  Speaker 3: doing things and using their bodies being active, they can't
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  Speaker 3: hold a phone don't.
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: Try try play the drums, play the guitar, play the piano,
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: go for a bike ride anything. We're going to link
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: to resources in the show notes if you'd like more information.
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: We really hope that it's useful in helping you in
• 16:12
  Speaker 1: your awareness of the issues and your conversations with kids.
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  Speaker 1: Bit of a heavy one today, but I think it's
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  Speaker 1: one that we've just we've got to keep on raising
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: awareness about it and talking about it. The Happy Families
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: podcast is produced by Justin Rowland from Bridge Media, and
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: if you'd like to know more about how your family
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: can be happier, especially with stories like that one, sign
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: up to our free, super helpful newsletter at happy families
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: dot com dot au.