Latest / The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast / Protection vs. Control | Understanding the Enneagram Type Eight with Melanie Erickson

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Protection vs. Control | Understanding the Enneagram Type Eight with Melanie Erickson · The Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast

0:09
SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast, the Enneagram for Real Life.
0:16
SPEAKER_00: Here is where you'll find conversations where faith meets story and strategy for lasting transformation.
0:25
SPEAKER_00: I'm your host, Amy Wicks, here to help you find wisdom and wholehearted rhythms for moments that matter most.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: Whether you're learning your type or deepening your spiritual formation, these conversations will remind you that the Enneagram shines a light, but Christ is the transformation.
0:50
SPEAKER_00: Well, we are right deep into the Enneagram 8th month, and this is our third week to offer up story and insight about the Enneagram 8 and the Enneagram 8's journey.
1:06
SPEAKER_00: So whether you are just looking for insight on someone else or your own journey, I hope that you've been having fun with us today.
1:15
SPEAKER_00: Melanie is here.
1:16
SPEAKER_00: She's one of our wholehearted coaches and Enneagram 8 herself.
1:20
SPEAKER_00: Now, we can't confuse this with Melody, who came on last week and shared who also is an Enneagram 8 and a wholehearted coach now.
1:28
SPEAKER_00: But Melanie is a farmer in the territory of Alberta, Canada.
1:34
SPEAKER_00: She's a mom of four, a grandmom of almost 12, right?
1:40
SPEAKER_00: And one of the most multi-passionate women I know.
1:46
SPEAKER_00: Melanie brings a unique combination of directness, vision, and deep care for people's, for women's potential in particular.
1:54
SPEAKER_00: And she does that.
1:55
SPEAKER_00: She does not let others stay small.
1:57
SPEAKER_00: So I have a feeling that if you're listening to this and you are tempted at all to play it safe or to stay small, you will be encouraged to do very differently.
2:06
SPEAKER_00: So Melanie, thank you for being here.
2:08
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no problem.
2:09
SPEAKER_01: Thanks for having me.
2:10
SPEAKER_01: I'm looking forward to this.
2:12
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
2:13
SPEAKER_00: I've loved how each conversation, while centered around a similar topic, that personality type and spiritual direction, each conversation has been so unique and different to the person and mirrors that.
2:57
SPEAKER_00: Melanie, give us a little insight of where you see Enneagram Eights getting stuck in the victim role, where some of that wounding gets amplified, because the lens and the perspective is there from the beginning.
3:10
SPEAKER_00: Maybe some of this has been reflected in your own story or others that you've helped.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:15
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: So how I see us getting stuck or myself being in a in the victim role is just a personal hurt.
3:22
SPEAKER_01: Like it just with the gut, but I'm in, it the response is immediate.
3:27
SPEAKER_01: And I just find I don't even know what's happening.
3:31
SPEAKER_01: It's just a response.
3:32
SPEAKER_01: And so if I'm supposed to express something, I don't because I feel like I'm not supposed to.
3:37
SPEAKER_01: And so it gets repressed.
3:39
SPEAKER_01: And then over time it just festers.
3:43
SPEAKER_01: Or if it doesn't, if I don't even know what's going on, sometimes I just don't even admit it happened.
3:48
SPEAKER_01: And so it's just sort of blown off.
3:50
SPEAKER_01: But I think the victim is when you just pretend there's nothing you can do about it and you just move on, but it never moves on.
3:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
3:58
SPEAKER_00: The problem itself just doesn't go away.
4:00
SPEAKER_00: I you start right away here talking about the eights response being a little different than maybe what some people experience because you just noted almost a stepping back when feeling powerless or betrayed.
4:15
SPEAKER_00: What sometimes other people experience as a stepping in or a pushing in or a pushing forward?
4:21
SPEAKER_00: Do you see both play out?
4:23
SPEAKER_00: And has it been, depending on the relationship, the environment, or the expectation?
4:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I can do both.
4:30
SPEAKER_01: I can withdraw or I can assert myself and pursue like immediately.
4:35
SPEAKER_01: And I think it is definitely who I'm with, but also probably what the hurt is.
4:41
SPEAKER_01: So if it's one of those stabs, then I will pursue.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: If it's just a scratch, then I'll probably withdraw and not pursue it.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: It won't be worth my effort for what I think is going on.
4:53
SPEAKER_01: But for the big hurts, I'm I'm a tiger.
4:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
4:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm all a bear.
4:59
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
5:00
SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting too, because then for as you would kind of unpack it a little bit more, and I'm just pushing a little bit on here, because you use language that might feel unfamiliar to some, that kind of stepping back.
5:13
SPEAKER_00: And so for an eight, when you're hurt and you're living in that victim role, you're stepping back and not really advocating for yourself.
5:22
SPEAKER_00: Is that true?
5:23
SPEAKER_00: Is that kind of where that lies?
5:25
SPEAKER_00: The victim mentality in particular.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Yep.
5:29
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, it is.
5:30
SPEAKER_01: I'm I go into my head, like I think a lot about what's gone on, and I probably ask myself, what have I done?
5:37
SPEAKER_01: Like I'll ask, where's my role in this?
5:40
SPEAKER_01: And then I'll go do something to process it.
5:44
SPEAKER_01: But if if it's a real huge trigger, then I'm all over it right now and I've lost my mind.
5:49
SPEAKER_01: I've lost rational and I'm all into let's get at her.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
5:55
SPEAKER_01: Speak workout.
5:57
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, let's take care of this now.
5:59
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so true, so real.
6:01
SPEAKER_00: Okay, this is really awesome because what we're talking about here is a victim mentality, maybe pulling back or pushing in too hard.
6:09
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like for an eight to be willing to recognize those or sit in that moment if that was harm and I wasn't able to do anything at that time, but this is the healing work that I'm gonna do.
6:23
SPEAKER_01: So then what I do, or if I'm aware that I have been hurt, and it's not something that I've done to somebody that they've done it to me, not that I deserved it or whatever.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: So how I handle it is I just don't aware of what's happening and I I don't react.
6:40
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm just I'm giving it, I'm naming what's happening.
6:43
SPEAKER_01: I guess I've been more aware of I look at them knowing that hurting people hurt others.
6:49
SPEAKER_01: And so I I'm actually getting to the point of seeing others in my story as opposed to just myself and wondering what's gone down there.
6:57
SPEAKER_01: And so I think more of the empathy comes in for them, and that I don't really put more on myself, and I don't feel riled in blame.
7:05
SPEAKER_01: And so yeah, for me, it's just a matter of not taking it as personal as it is, if I think it is.
7:12
SPEAKER_01: I just don't go personal because it goes nowhere.
7:16
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
7:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's really helpful.
7:19
SPEAKER_00: I think that work, initial work of sorting through where we've been a victim and where we've been stuck in victim mentality is really critical.
7:29
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's easy to maybe brush past it.
7:33
SPEAKER_00: And I think it's easier for some personality types than others.
7:36
SPEAKER_00: So I think thank you for sharing just what that looks like for you at this juncture in your story.
7:43
SPEAKER_00: The next role that we typically talk about as we do story work is the villain.
7:49
SPEAKER_00: And how I would sum it up for an A is that one is when protection becomes control.
7:55
SPEAKER_00: Because the villain often becomes the villain because they've been the victim for so long.
7:59
SPEAKER_00: They've slipped into victim mentality.
8:01
SPEAKER_00: And instead of just trying to protect themselves, they start employing other behaviors that are wrong or cruel, or the protection turns into hurt.
8:10
SPEAKER_00: So tell us a little bit of what that could look like for an eight and when the armor has been turned into a weapon.
8:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think I'm good at this role.
8:21
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so eights typically say this, just gonna put that out there.
8:24
SPEAKER_00: You're answering verbatim of what has happened in the past.
8:29
SPEAKER_00: So that's fair.
8:30
SPEAKER_00: It's it might be easier for some personality types to see this.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, I'm the like when you say the victim lends itself to being in that for too long.
8:40
SPEAKER_01: That's exactly what happens.
8:41
SPEAKER_01: And that's when the vengeance comes out or the resentment.
8:43
SPEAKER_01: That so the villain is, no, I'm gonna get you.
8:46
SPEAKER_01: That's just how it works.
8:47
SPEAKER_01: There's that internal anger, it just resonates and percolates.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: It's it has to come out some way.
8:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and it has to be expressed.
8:55
SPEAKER_01: And if it hasn't been expressed through the person, it's not gonna be pretty because that's it is for us, it's a it's a lot of energy and it's verbal and it's physical.
9:06
SPEAKER_01: I can't just sit there and I'm not controlled at some point.
9:09
SPEAKER_01: I have to watch that when it depends on how bad it gets.
9:12
SPEAKER_01: And I'm way bitter at the response as opposed to reacting and getting a lot better at expressing, so I don't get to that point.
9:19
SPEAKER_01: But uh, it can be ugly.
9:21
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:22
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
9:22
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
9:23
SPEAKER_01: I have Corolla dishes.
9:27
SPEAKER_00: Corral dishes for the win.
9:29
SPEAKER_00: They can be throwed and not break.
9:35
SPEAKER_00: Oh my god.
9:36
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that is so honest.
9:39
SPEAKER_00: Well, Melanie, I'd love to just shine a light of celebration because I can't help myself as your coach, but to say this is something that you and I have done so much work around and you have continued as a coach as well.
9:51
SPEAKER_00: And I just celebrate the transformation by you owning that element in your story and that propensity to step into it and listen, my friend who is listening, please hear me.
10:05
SPEAKER_00: We all have the potential to be a villain, no matter a personality type.
10:09
SPEAKER_00: Melanie is just willing to be honest of what it could look like for an eight.
10:12
SPEAKER_00: And so just know this is where we are all in need of a savior, grace and mercy.
10:17
SPEAKER_00: The list goes on and on, but that is real.
10:20
SPEAKER_00: And that is what happens if we don't tend to the wounds, if we don't exercise agency and learn how to respond versus react.
10:29
SPEAKER_00: This is what happened.
10:30
SPEAKER_00: It comes out sideways.
10:31
SPEAKER_00: So I think that's important.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: It's not something that we want to do.
10:35
SPEAKER_01: Like it's nobody wants to go down that road and yeah, definitely.
10:40
SPEAKER_00: I like this moment of the story when we turn towards the hero.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: And the hero is strength choosing vulnerability, exercising agency over those brokenhearted moments.
10:53
SPEAKER_00: But oftentimes for an eight, it's just acknowledging the brokenhearted moments.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: There's that's requires vulnerability in a way that allows people in to see your tenderness and pain.
11:04
SPEAKER_00: So, what does that look like?
11:05
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like for you in stepping into the hero role or the hero energy?
11:09
SPEAKER_00: What's change has had to happen?
11:12
SPEAKER_01: Well, it wasn't anything that I had done forever and ever and ever.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: So I just sort of went back from victim to villain and back and forth and back and forth.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: This was really hard for me to do the vulnerability part, like a really part, just to name my feelings and actually know what that is and then express it.
11:32
SPEAKER_01: It was big for me to get into that.
11:34
SPEAKER_01: And but it's really good because I am way better at saying what I need to say when I need to say it, and I'm not nervous or anxious or embarrassed to do it.
11:44
SPEAKER_01: I think the only reason that I can do it is because I come from the biblical end of, you know, now that I know like my dad died, that I have a heavenly father.
11:55
SPEAKER_01: That's been huge for me.
11:57
SPEAKER_01: Because it's been 50 years fatherless.
11:59
SPEAKER_01: I haven't even acknowledged that even the word.
12:02
SPEAKER_01: So that was really big, was to get into that.
12:04
SPEAKER_01: And where grace comes in, I I didn't have anything myself.
12:08
SPEAKER_01: There was never any any of that.
12:10
SPEAKER_01: It was being an achiever and and performing for attention and kudos.
12:15
SPEAKER_01: How to excel because that's how you that's what's better.
12:18
SPEAKER_01: That's how it worked.
12:19
SPEAKER_01: And when excellence is the bar, sometimes it gets pretty critical.
12:23
SPEAKER_01: So the vulnerability part is really good because I think even from a husband, yeah.
12:29
SPEAKER_01: That's really good because we just it just hasn't hadn't happened.
12:32
SPEAKER_01: And with my kids, I'm really good with the grandkids now.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: And I really see a shift in the last year of them coming out talk and stuff like that.
12:40
SPEAKER_01: But I've never had that before.
12:42
SPEAKER_01: So it's reciprocated, it's just now a natural fall.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: And it's beautiful.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Trust.
12:47
SPEAKER_01: Trust was the big one here.
12:49
SPEAKER_01: I had to find someone I trusted to be able to start it off with.
12:52
SPEAKER_01: And not when I've been really working on it.
12:54
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of an issue.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: So if I isn't someone's gonna reject me, come back to some other one.
13:02
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
13:04
SPEAKER_00: Do you mind giving us a glimpse on what created safety for you or or when you finally felt safe to share part of your story that got you started in the right direction?
13:15
SPEAKER_01: I think it was just knowing that I could talk with someone that heard me, that would uh repeat something, acknowledge, you know, show the body language, show the attention, model my my words, my criteria words like what I'm saying literally.
13:32
SPEAKER_01: And nobody was correcting me.
13:35
SPEAKER_01: Nobody was correcting.
13:36
SPEAKER_01: That was a big one.
13:37
SPEAKER_01: That they were just listening, just literally listening, not just even without correction.
13:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
13:44
SPEAKER_01: So that was the best part to me.
13:46
SPEAKER_01: And I we worked on that and did really well.
13:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, just being able to be received and known and be accepted for what it was, and no matter how raw or awful it felt, but to know it could be safe.
14:02
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, just being heard and being heard.
14:05
SPEAKER_01: It's just a simple, just a simple process of someone just letting you know that you're there.
14:11
SPEAKER_01: You don't know you have something to say, and maybe it's not the right thing.
14:15
SPEAKER_01: Doesn't matter.
14:18
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
14:19
SPEAKER_00: I think it's important to have people understand the fragiless almost of an eight to offer the tenderness and vulnerability and to be really cognizant of how you receive them uh in that moment or what it even looks like to offer and create a trusted relationship where you can open that door to the tenderness and vulnerability.
14:45
SPEAKER_00: I think it's very important.
14:46
SPEAKER_01: Okay, the first time I did it, it's just like open heart surgery without any anesthesia.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
14:51
SPEAKER_00: Whoa.
14:52
SPEAKER_01: I went into it.
14:55
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, for sure.
14:57
SPEAKER_00: And maybe that looks like a phone call or a conversation without video or not being face to face.
15:05
SPEAKER_00: So there can be just that not even having to think through the body language of how someone's receiving, but just offer it there and talking to the eight.
15:14
SPEAKER_00: Like if you're scared to do this, you don't have to go all in.
15:17
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't have to be face to face.
15:19
SPEAKER_00: You can put some barriers in there to help buffer it a little bit and make it easier to take that step.
15:24
SPEAKER_01: That's what you're saying.
15:26
SPEAKER_01: But I here here's me, Amy.
15:28
SPEAKER_01: Like I am all in, and I thought if I'm gonna do this, I am going to do it face to face right off the bat because I am not taking the steps.
15:36
SPEAKER_01: Like it's been too long for so long that just went right into it right away.
15:42
SPEAKER_01: Um at IH time is of the essence.
15:45
SPEAKER_01: What am I missing by not doing this sooner than later?
15:49
SPEAKER_01: You know, what's on the side?
15:50
SPEAKER_01: What's it costing?
15:51
SPEAKER_01: Way too much.
15:52
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
15:53
SPEAKER_00: Thanks for sharing that.
15:55
SPEAKER_00: The last few years we've made a shift in working on becoming the guide.
16:01
SPEAKER_00: And this is when you're offering as an eight, you're offering your strength as a gift for others.
16:08
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like, or how does an eight move from hero to guide?
16:12
SPEAKER_00: What has that journey been for you?
16:15
SPEAKER_00: And how do you see that with others as they're they've worked on the hero moments, but they know they're ready to invite others to their hero moments too?
16:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, for me, I think it's just been a natural transition to go to the guide.
16:28
SPEAKER_01: And the feedback I get from the ladies that come is you're our leader.
16:34
SPEAKER_01: I just find that the the guide is the long-lasting part of you are and just coming alongside people.
16:42
SPEAKER_01: And everyone has their own answers, everyone has their own story, everyone has it, it's in them.
16:49
SPEAKER_01: And that's that little nugget that's inside.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: I don't know.
16:53
SPEAKER_01: I just thought it just said just a natural transition to All Space Brothers, and I don't mind silence so I can be present and yeah, uh just ask the right questions and just be real, you know.
17:05
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm not I don't consider myself any above anybody by any means, but I just love my own intuitive if I can't.
17:16
SPEAKER_00: How does a an eight use their strength in a way that creates that space and where they're not afraid of silence?
17:24
SPEAKER_00: Because it's a little bit harder for an eight to eight and to not overpower or rush people into making a decision.
17:30
SPEAKER_00: How have you practiced that tension that would be maybe more an innate tendency as you're have you grown in your gift of being a guide?
17:41
SPEAKER_01: I mean, for me, not being still is not like strong suit.
17:48
SPEAKER_01: So I've worked on how to literally sit in that just with some of the spiritual formation things.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Specifically, I'm doing the exam and the lactodivina.
17:59
SPEAKER_01: So I'm that helps me a lot because I can just sit and think and still be a little bit.
18:05
SPEAKER_01: I think if you have a posture of humility, like if you just know that's where you're coming from, just even breath, like I know how to breathe now to relax my nervous system and give myself some space for that.
18:18
SPEAKER_01: And even somatics, I uh took some uh somatic ones when you put your hands on a certain part of your body.
18:24
SPEAKER_01: You know, I hadn't cleaned carload, I put my hand on my body just to wash, I'm telling you.
18:28
SPEAKER_01: So I had no idea it had some medicinal and medical and skills, but not life changing, right?
18:38
SPEAKER_00: Life changing.
18:39
SPEAKER_01: I think that the power under control is and all that is huge, and not just stuffing it.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: That's what I always did, was stuffing it.
18:48
SPEAKER_01: So now I am um directing it where it needs to go or if it needs to go, and I can diffuse and I am the shit uh leader.
18:58
SPEAKER_01: I'm in control of my shit.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I find I am, as opposed to instead of it happening to me or someone out there who's causing it in blame.
19:05
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's up to me how much you work it's informative, if nothing else.
19:11
SPEAKER_00: Yes, for sure.
19:13
SPEAKER_00: I I think sometimes this work is a guide, we while we're offering uh room for others to grow, there's something so life-changing for us as the guide.
19:22
SPEAKER_00: It's very deeply spiritually formative if we allow it and if we're trusting the Holy Spirit rather than our instincts or natural tendencies.
19:30
SPEAKER_00: And true.
19:32
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
19:33
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like for you as a guide and as at this chapter in your life to stay in this place of guideship or continue to work on your story in those moments that you could be a victim or villain?
19:49
SPEAKER_00: How does that work out for you?
19:50
SPEAKER_00: And and is that hard?
19:51
SPEAKER_00: Because I just want to give the moment.
19:53
SPEAKER_00: Sometimes when we've felt like we've got to a certain point in our story, we don't want to have to keep dealing with stuff that feels backwards.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Wrestle that out with us a little bit of what it looks like for you.
20:05
SPEAKER_01: I can say it's I like ping pong.
20:07
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and so that would be probably that.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: Um tennis is too slow.
20:12
SPEAKER_01: Ping pong's a lot faster, but it's good.
20:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, you know what?
20:18
SPEAKER_01: Life is life.
20:19
SPEAKER_01: We live in between the here and the now, the messy and and all of it.
20:22
SPEAKER_01: So I know that at one point I thought I was gonna arrive, really did.
20:26
SPEAKER_01: I thought I was having get there and stay there.
20:29
SPEAKER_01: No.
20:30
SPEAKER_01: So now that I'm, you know, have the realistic view of what life is and where I'm gonna go in any given day.
20:36
SPEAKER_01: I think just knowing that I have the agency and I have the power and I have the tools to move myself to where I choose to move myself.
20:45
SPEAKER_01: And I'm a sports girl and very competitive.
20:48
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I don't know what happens to me when I get so competitive.
20:53
SPEAKER_01: But I am journaling and working through that.
20:56
SPEAKER_01: But I'm very cognitous of what's going on.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: So like for curling, I can just go down the end of the rink and just ask myself, you know, but what's going on and process it.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, it probably takes me an end, but it's not something I can do in three seconds or less.
21:16
SPEAKER_01: But by the end of the game, I have to get it under control to figure out what's going on.
21:20
SPEAKER_01: I mean, before I'm not kidding, I'm over 40 years old and I've got to leave the building because I don't know how to handle myself.
21:27
unknown: Yeah.
21:28
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:29
SPEAKER_01: So now I can handle myself.
21:31
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes I have to go to the bathroom and get two band-aids to put to make sure that the smiley face when I come out.
21:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
21:40
SPEAKER_01: Because it's yeah, I have to do that.
21:43
SPEAKER_00: That's a great.
21:44
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
21:45
SPEAKER_00: And what you talk about is awareness, right?
21:47
SPEAKER_00: That simple act of awareness of knowing I'm competitive, I want to win the curling game.
21:53
SPEAKER_00: Matters to you deeply.
21:54
SPEAKER_00: And it's not that you need to change that, it matters to you.
21:57
SPEAKER_00: It's understanding when it's Overriding your senses, and you'll have to take it under check with the Holy Spirit, where you're coming it back into alignment of what matters here and what does the Lord have to say.
22:11
SPEAKER_00: Even in a curling match, and I think that's beautiful.
22:14
SPEAKER_00: Like this is the I thought I was gonna arrive to and um duck on it.
22:22
SPEAKER_00: Not until we're with Jesus face to face.
22:24
SPEAKER_01: No, that's okay.
22:26
SPEAKER_00: Yes.
22:27
SPEAKER_01: Darn boring if we didn't know it tomorrow brought.
22:29
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
22:29
SPEAKER_00: This is true.
22:30
SPEAKER_00: One of the steps in the wholehearted story work process is, and uh it's a step we've revisit many times typically, is naming the lies that we believe and not just going, oh, these are our misaligned thinking.
22:47
SPEAKER_00: Here's a positive thought.
22:49
SPEAKER_00: We purposely take the lie, which often is from the pit of hell, and what the enemy would want us to believe, and name them, bring them into the light, but then also speak the voice of love, which is the voice of truth, the voice of God that reminds us of our identity and whose we are and who we are in Christ.
23:10
SPEAKER_00: So I'd just be curious for you, what was a lie, one or two of them?
23:14
SPEAKER_00: And for you, what has been the voice of truth and the voice of love that you continue to remind yourself of, whether it's in a moment of the curling game and it's not going the way you want, or being a mom and a grandmom has plenty of those moments as well, and a teacher and a coach and all the other things you do.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: I think the biggest moment that I've had forever is if it's gonna be, it's up to me.
23:43
SPEAKER_01: And so I that was just a huge one for you know, whatever that, whatever my world's gonna look like, I'm gonna create it, make it, keep it, control it, work it until it works me, or we're both dead or it blows up.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: And so that's yeah, that one has been there forever.
24:03
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's from way back in childhood when my dad died, uh it was up to me.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Like it was literally up to me to maintain my brother and I to maintain the household.
24:14
SPEAKER_01: I think that just carried on.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: But I mean, I've got a lot of energy, but you can really kill yourself trying to make that work too because the world's another day, and they're still thinking three things on your list from yesterday, and dang it, like it's never gonna so that yeah, so I realized that it's not up to me yet.
24:31
SPEAKER_01: I think that's the thing that got me down to I can't do this anymore, like the bottom of the barrel.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: And so that's when I went to program and uh they had an optical, and that was that to me.
24:43
SPEAKER_01: So that was along 25 years ago, and so that's that helped me that it isn't up to me.
24:49
SPEAKER_01: Like there's someone else that can help me out.
24:52
SPEAKER_01: Releasing all of that to God was huge for me that I didn't have to carry that anymore.
24:59
SPEAKER_01: And the other one that I've used is you've got nothing to say, or don't say anything because you have nothing valuable to say.
25:07
SPEAKER_01: And I know I ruminate in that still sometimes with a gut with the feeling that I have.
25:14
SPEAKER_01: I know I want to say something, I know I want to say something, but I'm not sure if I should that that comes with probably more formal things.
25:23
SPEAKER_01: Like you I can talk and say what I want when I want to say it.
25:26
SPEAKER_01: But if I'm in a room with people I'm not sure about, then I don't do that because I'm afraid I'm gonna do too much.
25:33
SPEAKER_01: Okay, too much.
25:34
SPEAKER_01: I'm gonna say too much.
25:37
SPEAKER_01: And I'm not sure where it's gonna go.
25:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I'm still a little worried about that.
25:42
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes the opposite, uh like if I'm in a place with I know where where I want to go and I know the people and stuff, uh I will say what I need to say, what I need to say, whatever happens, happens.
25:53
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
25:55
SPEAKER_01: I'll be the last man standing.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: I know that though.
26:01
SPEAKER_00: That's great.
26:03
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so with this idea of maybe it's a toggle between being too much and yet not having enough.
26:14
SPEAKER_00: And it's not not being enough.
26:16
SPEAKER_00: You know you're enough, but it's not having enough and enough information.
26:20
SPEAKER_00: Uh will I be able to have enough self-control, even to not bulldoze?
26:29
SPEAKER_00: How has the Lord been speaking to that thought?
26:32
SPEAKER_00: Because again, I want to go, we're not coming to this conversation as conquered people, as people have figured it out.
26:38
SPEAKER_00: Like we're still figuring it out.
26:40
SPEAKER_00: And I know on our one-on-one conversations, we process this.
26:44
SPEAKER_00: And what's something that has become more true to you that has helped bring about more responding than reacting in those moments when you're not sure?
26:54
SPEAKER_00: Am I gonna be too much?
26:56
SPEAKER_00: Or will I have enough to have what it takes to get this through on the other side in a way I want it to?
27:03
SPEAKER_01: Well, in the moment I'm asking myself, wait, why am I not speaking?
27:08
SPEAKER_01: Like, what is it?
27:09
SPEAKER_01: And all I know is if I don't say what I need to say when I need to say, it's only gonna get worse.
27:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, I have to decide, is it something of value that I need to bring up, then bring it up?
27:19
SPEAKER_01: Otherwise, I have to load over, like I have to ditch that and and move through it properly so that it doesn't bring a reaction.
27:28
SPEAKER_01: So I'm not there anymore of just blowing my head off or just saying something to say that's with no thought whatsoever, even though it looks like fire aim ready.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
27:38
SPEAKER_01: But that's just that's just for my nerf guns, but that's not for people.
27:41
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:41
SPEAKER_00: Yes, that's good.
27:43
SPEAKER_00: We'll keep it to the nerf guns.
27:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, man.
27:46
SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that default instant stuff is that still rocks me sometimes.
27:50
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: Especially if it's anything to do with my kids, anything to do with my family, or anything to do with something that I think is so unjust.
28:00
SPEAKER_01: Like I have a hard time with that.
28:02
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
28:03
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
28:05
SPEAKER_01: I think injustice is power under control with moral excellence.
28:10
SPEAKER_01: That's that's the excellence with the power, otherwise, it's total injustice.
28:16
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:17
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
28:18
SPEAKER_00: Beautifully said.
28:19
SPEAKER_00: Melanie, you and I, again, as we talk about whether it's coaching other women or thought leaders conversations, you and I both come back to it's all about identity.
28:30
SPEAKER_00: Tell me what you've learned about identity rooted in Christ or as God's beloved for you that has helped shift some of the story journey and helps you live into the guide role or in your hero moments.
28:44
SPEAKER_01: That's been a total paradigm for me, coming from doing to work up a ladder, then starting at the top with abundance and just coming down, knowing that I don't have to do a deadly squat.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:00
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
29:01
SPEAKER_01: Identity is yeah, who I am in crisis has really put me in a different level of keeping me grounded, keeping me grounded and where I am on any given day.
29:11
SPEAKER_01: And well, if I'm not, if there's tension, if there's anxiety, if there's something going on, what is it?
29:17
SPEAKER_01: Because it's not about what I have to do.
29:20
SPEAKER_01: It's already what he's done.
29:22
SPEAKER_01: And I just have to accept it, take it, and and it's all finished.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Oh, they're waiting for me.
29:28
SPEAKER_01: I have everything I need, so it's just appropriating it and moving with it.
29:32
SPEAKER_01: That's something I'm just fading into and working on and getting through.
29:36
SPEAKER_01: But the more I understand it, that's how it works for me.
29:39
SPEAKER_01: The more I can rationalize and reason what's gone on and understand all of the processes and how it all works for me.
29:46
SPEAKER_01: But I then get to the feeling part.
29:50
SPEAKER_01: And I find the more church services that go with the music, it's just I just get downloads and Holy Spirit.
29:59
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and that's not something I'm used to.
30:02
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, yeah.
30:05
SPEAKER_00: I love that.
30:06
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for giving that insight, just your experience and your journey.
30:10
SPEAKER_00: I wanna do give a little bit of time.
30:13
SPEAKER_00: We've shared a lot about the victim villain hero guide of what it looks like for an eight, and specifically to Melanie's journey.
30:20
SPEAKER_00: And and thank you for your vulnerability because I imagine so many of these stories are going to resonate.
30:25
SPEAKER_00: I wanna give some time to some community questions and just hear your answers and your take on it.
30:33
SPEAKER_00: What for those who are still going through the Enneagram journey in the sense of figuring out their type, and you and I both know it can take a minute.
30:43
SPEAKER_00: And for you, even as you've gone through the journey, we've tried on different types and you've also realized there's different layers.
30:50
SPEAKER_00: The five is very apparent in your life.
30:53
SPEAKER_00: It's an overlay, it's a it's not only a line of stress for you as an eight, but it's also part of your tri-type, if you will, or part of your paradigm.
31:04
SPEAKER_00: But what would you say to someone who's wondering, are they actually an eight or are they just a confident, direct person?
31:10
SPEAKER_00: What are some of the things that you see in an eight's motivations or their core desires that for you, you would say, pay attention to this because it's an indicator that you are an eight.
31:23
SPEAKER_00: And if this isn't true, then keep trying some of the other types on.
31:27
SPEAKER_01: Well, I think number one is control for sure, self-protection.
31:31
SPEAKER_01: I know, like I struggled with the five and the eight at first.
31:35
SPEAKER_01: That's the head type, even though I go there and I know I do a lot of that.
31:39
SPEAKER_01: The core for me was the betrayal.
31:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, was the the self-protection and the betrayal, whereas the seven is their needs and energy or the five, and that's not me.
31:50
SPEAKER_01: So though that was huge.
31:52
SPEAKER_01: And then I am a thrift.
31:53
SPEAKER_01: There's no way that I'm not.
31:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I have a gut, I've had a gut response since I was born.
31:59
SPEAKER_01: So I know that, yeah.
32:02
SPEAKER_01: And I mean, if you if you're okay with being vulnerable, good for you.
32:05
SPEAKER_01: I never was.
32:06
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
32:08
SPEAKER_01: That's a real struck.
32:09
SPEAKER_01: I'll go around and do a lot more shoveling and a lot more cleaning before some before I tell any what I think.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: That's good.
32:14
SPEAKER_00: Those are real key indicators.
32:16
SPEAKER_00: I just want to ask for a moment because when we did our journey together in that, this was years ago, like five years ago.
32:24
SPEAKER_00: So it's been a minute.
32:26
SPEAKER_00: Would you say some of those words or some of the language used for an eight was difficult at first for you to wrap your head around or identify with?
32:36
SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes there's a dissonance there between words that are used and what the experience feels like for any type.
32:45
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, actually, so words are big for me.
32:48
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm very specific and very particular about my words and what they mean to me.
32:52
SPEAKER_01: And so I try and model that back to someone else.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: But I could not even stick with betrayal.
32:58
SPEAKER_01: Like that didn't resonate with me, but neither did the fives.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: My word was not violated almost.
33:06
SPEAKER_01: It was a violation for me that it was I'm working my way into that word because it the more I see what that means, like I'm just defining that figure for myself.
33:15
SPEAKER_01: Just little things can be betrayal for me, like just not giving me the time to even the attention to talk to me and not following the truth, your agreement, and things like that.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: Those are just small things, but that's what it was for me.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: I sort of redefine it, it doesn't have to be a big thing.
33:32
SPEAKER_01: It's still all those that are uh go against who I am and what I value.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and when other people minimize it, that's a big deal.
33:40
SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
33:40
SPEAKER_01: Um I have like strong, I'm strong, but I really didn't know I'm thinking physical strength.
33:49
SPEAKER_01: Like that's how I took strong too for because that's part of an eight.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: And it took me uh probably 20 years to realize my strengths.
33:59
SPEAKER_01: I can do all things with Christ with strength.
34:01
SPEAKER_01: And this being I realized that's where my strength was because I'm a physically strong person, but I didn't realize that I had to give back that strength.
34:11
SPEAKER_01: I had to literally lay it down, and then that is the true strength of what I have.
34:15
SPEAKER_01: So admit that way that I don't have that is like a rule my underwear.
34:22
SPEAKER_00: No, yeah, that's a hard one.
34:24
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not gonna happen.
34:25
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, not gonna happen.
34:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
34:29
SPEAKER_00: Oh, this is so good.
34:31
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for indulging me because what you've articulated here is something that I've experienced with the numerous eights again and again, where some of this language is a little bit tricky, whether it's uh female versus male, or culturally, there's some language or or connotations around the words, but I think you articulated really well.
34:54
SPEAKER_00: It's worth digging in a little bit and giving some pause and giving some story to see if that is true.
35:03
SPEAKER_01: You know, you have the stereotypical name, it's a challenger, a protective challenger or a strong warrior.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: My word is champion.
35:11
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I'm using champion instead of challenger.
35:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
35:15
SPEAKER_00: I like that.
35:16
SPEAKER_00: I think many would raise their hand.
35:19
SPEAKER_00: Before we finish, I want to make sure I give a little bit of time to this really important question because it's something many people, no matter their type, deal with, which is relationship and relational repair.
35:34
SPEAKER_00: I think for an eight, this tends to be a driving motivator in getting a guide, working with a coach, or stepping into a season of self-awareness.
35:45
SPEAKER_00: What does it look like for an eight to repair a relationship?
35:50
SPEAKER_00: How do they do this?
35:51
SPEAKER_00: Because there's apologies require vulnerability.
35:56
SPEAKER_00: There's a tenderness and a weakness associated with it.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: Help us through it.
36:01
SPEAKER_00: I think that's a really unique uh struggle for an aide that other types maybe don't understand.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: So help an eight listening.
36:10
SPEAKER_00: How do they go about repairing?
36:11
SPEAKER_00: What does that look like?
36:12
SPEAKER_00: What have you done that has been helpful?
36:14
SPEAKER_00: How's the Lord spoken to you and led you in this way that you've seen good fruit?
36:18
SPEAKER_00: Because I I can testify to it.
36:20
SPEAKER_00: I've seen the good fruit in your life, and that's for sure.
36:24
SPEAKER_01: I think basically I'm bold and I don't pussyfoot around because I know what's on the, I've been on the other side and I know what again, what it's costing me.
36:34
SPEAKER_01: So nine times out of ten, I approach it in a realm of let's get down and let's do this.
36:40
SPEAKER_01: And so I know with my kids, and you know, just one-on-one working with them, just talking.
36:46
SPEAKER_01: And I just thought it's easy.
36:47
SPEAKER_01: By no means is it easy.
36:48
SPEAKER_01: I find it still very hard to bring out the feline words.
36:51
SPEAKER_01: I think sometimes when you've holding on that long, when they do come out, it's overwhelming.
36:55
SPEAKER_01: And so I'm sure the kids even they see they're not used to me like that.
37:00
SPEAKER_01: And so I don't want to right off the bat, it's not something's wrong.
37:03
SPEAKER_01: It's just that it's there.
37:05
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, yeah.
37:06
SPEAKER_01: I think we just deal with however it comes out.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: But the thing that we're both that we're again, all of us are willing to address whatever that looks like, and nobody gets embarrassed.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: We need to do it.
37:18
SPEAKER_01: And and I know I'm probably the one that will activate and not that I want to, yes, and not that I don't want to.
37:27
SPEAKER_01: It's it's just it is definitely hard to go through that process.
37:31
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
37:32
SPEAKER_01: That's that's humble.
37:33
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm literally not running around naked now, you know, all gone.
37:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
37:39
SPEAKER_00: Nothing to hide behind.
37:41
SPEAKER_01: No, I'm exposed.
37:42
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
37:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
37:44
SPEAKER_00: That is very vulnerable to just own that.
37:47
SPEAKER_00: It doesn't necessarily, maybe while it gets easier, it's not ever easy.
37:52
SPEAKER_00: And so what it's going to require is that moment, what you even alluded to in the scripture of his strength is made perfect in our weakness, and that moment of weakness where it's really difficult and challenging to own the mistakes, to leave room for emotion to be expressed and to be more emotive than you feel comfortable with.
38:13
SPEAKER_00: Even if, you know, even if it is family, it's it brings about discomfort.
38:18
SPEAKER_00: And so in that moment, God gets to be made greater and his power gets to be shown and demonstrated, his love through that moment of being willing to say, I'm gonna step into humility, I'm gonna own it, I'm gonna work on it, I'm gonna offer my emotion to you, even if this is uncomfortable, with the hopes of knowing that our relationship is more important than me feeling comfortable and staying in control.
38:47
SPEAKER_01: Because now that like I have I have a Holy Spirit, like I have that inkling, and I can sit here and go, okay, I can pretend all I want.
38:56
SPEAKER_01: But so that's the good news is yeah, I have that.
39:00
SPEAKER_01: You know, I know that to squash that is so silly and that's just wrong.
39:04
SPEAKER_01: So just do what I need to do when I need to do it.
39:07
SPEAKER_01: And sometimes that's you know, I can cite that, but what's the point?
39:11
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, wait.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: So yeah.
39:13
SPEAKER_00: Thank you, Melanie.
39:14
SPEAKER_00: I am not surprised that you have brought this beautiful wisdom to the table here, and it truly comes from someone who has walked it and lived it and who continues to own it.
39:27
SPEAKER_00: So thank you.
39:28
SPEAKER_00: Thank you for being a part of this.
39:29
SPEAKER_00: I pray that if you're listening and you know an eight, that you have revelation, greater revelation about this person you love and know in that is deeper and wider than those memes or what a word tries to capture.
39:47
SPEAKER_00: So thank you for listening.
39:48
SPEAKER_00: And I hope that if you are an eight, that you've heard that no matter where you are in your journey, whether you're still carrying around old wounds and there's fear about identifying, or your tendency is to push people away with intensity, that there is a brave step to take towards vulnerability.
40:08
SPEAKER_00: And when you do that, your strength becomes a gift to others.
40:12
SPEAKER_00: So you don't have to have it all figured out.
40:14
SPEAKER_00: Just take the next right step, maybe with a guide, a friend that you can trust in a safe place with a safe person, and ultimately with God who's incredibly trustworthy.
40:25
SPEAKER_00: So thank you again, Melanie, for coming and sharing your story.
40:28
SPEAKER_00: And I'm looking forward to people connecting with you.
40:32
SPEAKER_00: We'll put all the ways to do that in the show notes where they can continue to learn from you and your weekly emails that are thoughtful and profound.
40:40
SPEAKER_00: And words are chosen very carefully.
40:42
SPEAKER_00: There's no fluff in Melanie's correspondence at all.
40:45
SPEAKER_01: No, I don't do fluff.
40:47
SPEAKER_00: Nope, nope.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: That's right.
40:50
SPEAKER_00: I love it.
40:51
SPEAKER_00: Well, thanks again for sharing today.
40:52
SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Amy.
40:53
SPEAKER_01: This does really, really important.
40:59
SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much for joining me for the Wholehearted Enneagram Podcast.
41:04
SPEAKER_00: If this conversation spoke to you, please share it with a friend.
41:09
SPEAKER_00: You can also visit simply wholehearted.com to take the free Enneagram quiz and also get your personalized podcast playlist specific for your Enneagram type.
41:22
SPEAKER_00: And remember, friend, your starting point doesn't have to be your step point.