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Lights, Camera, Design: Production and Costume Design · Design Darlings

• Fergie: why I continue to get work today is that I have an ethical practice. And that I I am always considering it through my design, what story am I telling? How am I telling it? Am I telling it in a way that is honorable and respectful? Am I including other voices in how I am doing this work? Ro Rich: Hello darling. Allie: Hello, darling. I'm Allie Miller. Ro Rich: And I'm your girl Robin Richardson. Welcome back to Design Darlings, the podcast where we obsess over what makes, breaks, or bakes a good design in the world. And this week we have a fantastic, fantabulous guest. C.S. Ferguson Vox is a maven of many things. She is a theatrical designer, historian, artivist, abolitionist, and overall extraordinaire. I'm very excited for us to chat today because we're gonna go through a range of topics. that really talk about making theater come to life through design decisions and really bomb ass craft, frankly. So hello Fergie. Fergie: Good morning. Thank you for having me. Ro Rich: my Allie: Good morning, Bergie. So excited Ro Rich: gosh, Snapster Bergie, what's up? Hello. Allie: to have you. Bergie. Fergie: Ha ha ha. Allie: Or the Gen Z finger tap. Yeah. Fergie: my god, no, I'm not cool enough. Ro Rich: Did you? Allie: Not a fan of the Gen Z clockets. Ro Rich: When did that become a thing? Fergie: I d I don't fully understand it. I Ro Rich: Okay. Fergie: I need an interpreter. Allie: the index finger is like awesome job, snaps. Fergie: Okay. Allie: The Ro Rich: okay. Allie: the middle finger in the thumb, that's clocket. So we're suspicious. is that okay, great. Okay, it's where we've appropriated from. Amazing. Okay. There we go. Yes. Fergie: Okay, but that's queer, I know that. Like that's queer. Like yeah. Usually. Ro Rich: Everything from Gen Z is like queer appropriated, I would like to Fergie: Yeah, which is oftentimes Ro Rich: say, most of their language. Fergie: A A V E appropriated. so you know, Allie: Exactly. Well for you, we are so excited to have you on today and to talk about all things, production design, costume, hair, makeup, wigs, the whole the whole shebang, so to speak. maybe first walk us through how did you get to where you are? Fergie: Right. first of all, Right Relations. I am on the unceded ancestral territory of the Halcomalam speaking peoples, which is for me the Greater Vancouver area of British Columbia. and I work as a theatrical designer. occasionally I teach. I work in arts production and programming. I'm a historian and all of those things Feed my praxis of ethical artistic production. I try to infuse my praxis always with the the concept of is this serving a community, is this consulting a community, is this the the right story for me to tell? am I inserting myself where I should be or where I am. go and I got to this place Because of William Shakespeare. Allie: gonna say you we heard earlier you were kind of it goes back to the bard, baby. Like where Fergie: Yeah, it's it's really that's that's the beginning is my mother majored in Shakespearean language long ago before she immigrated to America and sort of raised us with Shakespeare's bedtime stories as morality tales. it was her way of explaining the complexities of the world for us was oftentimes through the lens of Shakespeare's stories. I remember going to the Shakespeare Theatre Company as a kid to see shows in DC, shout out. Allie: Mm. Fergie: and just the language of the bard, the wild array of characters that felt very universal, all of those things sort of led me into being a Shakespeare nerd in high school, I joined my high school Shakespearean troupe. I used to compete in the Allie: Incredible. Fergie: English speaking union's sonologue competition. I think they still do that. Another shout out. that Ro Rich: Wow. Fergie: used to be at the Folder Shakespeare Library. I don't know if it still is. It's it's been a long time since I've I've been going to study chemistry in college and my mother sat me down and said, no, no don't do that. Go to art school. You you she was she told me you you have a gift, you need to go to to theater school. You're going to regret it if you don't do this. and being you know obedient immigrant kid, I I listened to my mother and I applied. Allie: I What a blessing that Ro Rich: But You listened, but was she right? Fergie: Yeah I sh I think she was absolutely right. Allie: for parents to encourage that. Fergie: There's a lot of but how are you going to make money and you know, Allie: Right. Fergie: etcetera, etcetera? And I Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: think because we are Trini from Trinidad and Tobago, where there's this huge culture of carnival costume, of mass, of mocojambi, of and of venerating costume constructors and and people who make these beautiful carnival costumes. Like I I knew Peter Minshal was from like small, he's probably one of the most famous costume designers from Trinidad and so it wasn't like a this is an unreasonable job. You know, it was like that's there's cultural weight and respect for it. So my my mother was really great about it actually. especially when I faltered when I'd go, Why didn't I get a normal degree? Why don't I have a normal job? Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: I'll never retire You know, I'm gonna die in a theater somewhere. And my mom would be like, You're doing what you love and you're good at it, and you know, just keep keep at it, keep at it, you know. diversify your skill set, keep going. You know, you're you're you're a good artist and you should do this. And so all props to my mother, whom I adore. Allie: Yeah. Fergie: so that's that was the beginning of the journey. So I went to theater school, then I started working as a apprentice, sort of a journeyman, have car, half sewing machine, half sketchbook, will travel kind of thing. Roused about Allie: Yeah. Fergie: lots of different theater companies along the lower mainland of the States. and then found myself here in Canada and and settled here. and continued that that journey since I've been in Canada I've worked with multiple theater companies here learning always trying to grow and in in this in this world of theater that has so many contradictions, where we're holding a l a mirror to society, we're also pushing audiences to confront hard truths, to ask hard questions, but also we act as a source of sort of tabloom and comfort. You know, everyone's got their favorite musical, everyone's got their favorite, sort of I I wanna escape. I don't I don't need to think about the hard things right now, so we're doing all of these things in theater, which got me really thinking back to Shakespeare about the morals and the the motivations of us those of us behind that stage, behind the curtain doing this work. which is ethical considerations are so important to me as a theatrical designer. And I think why I continue to get work today is that I have an ethical practice. And that I I am always considering it through my design, what story am I telling? How am I telling it? Am I telling it in a way that is honorable and respectful? Am I including other voices in how I am doing this work? Allie: I love that. When you talk about ethical design, how do you bring that through your process, whether it's, at the start of a brief through the production, where does that come into play in your in your work, in your craft? Fergie: When I was a younger designer and didn't have the discernment or to be really honest with you, the budget to be as harsh about what jobs I I picked. it was sort of like I can't really I can't put this into my calculus, I need to eat, But now that I'm more established I can go, I don't think that production is something that is appropriate for me. I'm not comfortable with what this is saying, or the reputation that this company has or this director, I'm not so comfortable with. So it starts with even choosing to take the job, which is a a position of real economic privilege, which I didn't always have. And I n I want to be really clear about that. That you you cannot fight in the revolution with an empty belly. Allie: Mm. Fergie: Right? Like you your pride doesn't pay your gas bill, you know, like you have to be able to survive. And so you might end up taking shows that you're like later you go, dear. But I'm I'm in a place, you know, all all praise to the universe that I I can make that call first. Once I've made that call, then it's, you know, what is the story we're telling? What is the script? It's always about script, right? is this a story being presented in a way that will educate, that will uplift, that will examine, and how do I, as a designer, play into the goals of that script? How do I Allie: Yeah. Fergie: push the characterization forward with actors? Ro Rich: curious I mean, we talked about this a little bit before, like you start with world building when you think about I have to build an entire world and you spoke at at Fergie: Yeah. Ro Rich: the beginning about how it's important to get the world right and make the world Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: respectful. And so there's an application and choices that you make as a designer. And so I'm curious how you look at one, the whole building of the world. I know you start with the script, but then you start to interpret it and apply things into that as well. So can you tell us a little bit about that? Fergie: Sure. So not all scripts are created equal in that I'm not talking about the quality of the script like how is it a pulse or whatever. I'm talking about are there's directions from the playwright in the script? or they're Ro Rich: Okay. Fergie: they're clues. They're it sometimes they're their clues will like three days later. Okay, time has passed, somebody's wearing a different outfit, something that basic, right? Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: some playwrights it's really, really like, okay, you want a floral dress, not a striped dress in this scene. That was important to you. so there could be stage directions and oftentimes it'll be in the script itself. I think one of the most famous costume directions in a script that I can think of Shakespeare again. Twelfth night. Malvolio shows up, he is in yellow hose cross gartered. You can't do a production of Twelfth Night. where Malvolio doesn't show up in an interpretation of the yellow hose cross guarded. Whatever period that Ro Rich: Mm. Fergie: show has been set in, you've gotta figure out how to get Malvolio in that outfit because it is in the dialogue. Allie: can I ask why for those of the uninitiated Shakespeareans of the world? Fergie: Yeah. Allie: Why why is that specific costume direction important? Fergie: It's it's a plot point actually. there's a there's a whole false love letter storyline that happens in which Malvolio is convinced he's sort of the major donor of the household that his mistress, the lady of the house, is secretly in love with him. And she's written him this love letter. It's fake. The other servants are messing with him. and she basically says, you know, I know that our our romance is forbidden because of our different stations. So do these things to prove that you know that I've written to you and that I I love you. And one of the things she tells me to do is wear this hideous outfit that involves yellow Ro Rich: Ha ha ha. Fergie: hose that's cross gartered. Yes. And this is a household Allie: If you love me, you're gonna dress ugly. You're gonna be ugly. Fergie: that's also in mourning. Everyone's in black. And Allie: look ugly and I want you to make people mad. Fergie: It's a really it turns out to be quite a sadistic prank actually. It it it goes way too far. that's the the the scene of much hilarity in Twelfth Night. if you've seen Twelfth Twelfth Night, most people remember that scene. It's absolutely bonkers. very, very funny. But as a costume designer, I have to have those clothes in there. That also informs something of that world of of the show of Twelfth Night. What that has told me is that there are strict rules of class and dress, however the show is being presented. If we're doing it in eighteen twelve, if we're doing it in nineteen twenty, if we're doing it today, if we're doing it in Shakespeare's time, however the director and the theater companies decided to set up the show, whatever the timeline, this is a world where there is very strict class distinctions in dress, and that is giving me a clue into how I'm building that world of costume. Ro Rich: It does. it's like sumptuary law, but you're the government. So the Renaissance sumptuary laws dictated who could wear what Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: and how and why. And as a costume Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: designer, you're like the mini system for deciding who wears what, how who outranks who, and so you're building Fergie: Yes, yes. Ro Rich: a hierarchy into the wardrobe. Shakespeare did it in a quite a brilliant way. and it sounds like Shakespeare for you is the measuring stick. Why is Shakespeare such a great measuring stick for building these worlds and for You know, not just costuming, but like every little detail. Fergie: I think it's because of the never when aspect of Shakespeare. You can set Shakespeare at any time, in any Allie: Mm. Fergie: place, and people will go with it. is it because the language is so beautiful? Is it because the stories are so universal? Is it because we all had to learn it in school? I don't know, but there Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: is this sense of Endless possibility within Shakespeare. Shakespeare is like this box of stuff. He's like a Lego set. You can build anything with a set of Legos. and I suppose within reason, Legos have corners, right? you can build anything within Shakespeare within reason, you know. and because we don't have a lot of stage directions from Shakespeare and the stage directions that we do have from Shakespeare we know were often added by the people who are printing or writing the folio or or taking notes because a lot of the scripts we have came from folks watching his shows and writing it down, right? and then eventually publishing Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: it. So we don't know that those stage directions were necessarily from Shakespeare. So, you know, Exant Chased by Bear might not have been written by Shakespeare. Right. Allie: Yeah. Fergie: and so it's becomes a a real exercise in deep script analysis because you can't rely on modern stage directions. You'll have to go into the text itself and pry it apart to find who is who, what is what, where is it happening, when is it happening? and I think that's a very important because a huge part of what I do is script analysis. and my script analysis is gonna be very different from how an actor or a director is analyzing a script. But script analysis is very important as a designer. I need to read Allie: When you're doing Fergie: the lines and in between them. Ro Rich: Mm. Allie: When you're doing script analysis, I think something that comes up again and again and again is accuracy in the final product. And especially with costume Fergie: Yes. Allie: design, that I think it's a it's an easy thing for people to see and have. Like I have a tangible thing that I can critique or pick apart or praise or have an opinion about. When it comes to doing shows that have a historical element to you. I'd love to know your perspective on when are we accurate to the text in the history? and then when do we go just completely off the rails and say, I don't care that it was set in eighteen fifty two. I'm gonna Fergie: Mm. Allie: set it whenever I want and do whatever I want with it. Fergie: Okay. starting with the sort of the last thing when does it go off the rails. I think when it goes off the rails is when it is clear that it can. Not Allie: Hmm. Fergie: every script can be shifted that way, you could tell little women in nineteen eighty Chicago You could. It would work. working class neighborhood, single mom raising her daughters. That's something an audience would go, Okay, yeah, I buy that. Right? There's an authenticity, as much as I I hate throwing that word around, but there is something that feels authentic and real. If I say we're I hear me out, we're doing little women in late nineteen eighty Chicago and you go, Wait, wait, you know what? Yeah, I see it. That's I think when you can go off the rails, is when it the story allows itself to go off the rails. when it cannot, when it has to be where it is, that's when the story hinges upon the conventions of a particular time and it won't make sense outside of the conventions of a particular time. it's why we can see a modern interpretation of Emma, but a modern interpretation of persuasion doesn't make as much sense. Allie: Mm. Fergie: the world of Emma, of the gossip of the power plays, of the childish sort of games, of the trying to understand femininity as you are getting older, you can put that somewhere else, like clueless. Persuasion where we've got, you know. some universal elements of war hero coming home, but there are also things that don't make sense outside of the Regency in persuasion that maybe I lack the imagination to sort of re reconfigure that, but things like the the most pivotal scene in the book spoiler alert, sorry guys, where Captain Allie: Ha ha Fergie: Wentworth leaves the letter. It doesn't that's not gonna hit the same if it was a text. And it's not gonna make as much sense if it's a text. It has to be that he wrote this letter in a clouded Allie: yeah, it's a D Hey D D. Fergie: room, right? And that he did it like nonchalantly, like he was just writing letters. It has to be the world where people just sit down and write private letters in rooms full of other people and that's normal. That's not a thing that fits every period, right? so it once again comes back to the authenticity of the of of what's happening. Does the story rely on the time it's set in, when it was written? Or can it be freed from its tethers into the world of never when? Ro Rich: and Fergie: Yeah. Ro Rich: I feel like you have the imagination to go Boz Lerman on some Shakespeare. Like you said, you know, is Romeo and Juliet Fergie: definitely. Ro Rich: going to be post apocalyptic robots? Fergie: Yeah. Ro Rich: Or was it going to be? And so I feel like based on that, then you start to imagine, or you mentioned that you start to imagine. The hair, the clothes, you imagine what that world is going to be based on where it's set in a time period and then you match the silhouette Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: and all those things. So I guess if the world is going to move or you're gonna interpret something, because there's obviously there's newer theater productions, and then they're the ones that are ingrained in our minds that we are familiar with and we come with an idea we come with a preconceived notion to to make it new again if you're Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: if the dra if that is in fact the vision. it takes a different twist and so you then you have to reimagine what that's going to be. And so I'm I'm curious how did you learn to do that? Like how do you say post apocalyptic Romeo and Juliet with robots, go. Fergie: I feel like this is probably a terribly geeky answer, but it's you know, it's research. Research, research, research. Always research, always. Yeah, and it's Ro Rich: Listen, honey, no one knows about that anymore. And so the design the design process itself starts and research, boys and girls. For those of you who are not designers, we Fergie: Ha ha ha. Ro Rich: start with research, we do an analysis, we do a data call, we talk to people. Allie: We talk to users. Fergie: And it's not just I Google is just Google, right? And Ro Rich: it's not? Shut up. Allie: You don't just put it into chat GPT? What? Fergie: heartbreaking, Ro Rich: Two. Fergie: but you know, this is something I'm always telling younger up and coming designers, potential designers that go listen, you can't just Google it. You the public library is your friend, archives are your friend. I have many, many I have a lot of books. with reference materials. you have to be conversant in historical styles. We call it period styles. You have understand period styling, you have to you have to understand that seventeenth century furniture is different than twentieth century furniture. You have to understand the silhouette of a woman's gown in ancient Phoenicia is going to be different than the silhouette of a woman's gown in Middle kingdom, Egypt, like these are all things that come down to research. And you don't have to keep an Encyclopedia Britannica in your head, right? But you do have to have a very thick Rolodex of references that you can clock and then go research deeper, right? Some shows I'm asked to design, I absolutely am like, yeah, I just did six shows in that period, in the last two years, whatever, that's fine. And some I'll be like, gotta refresh. Gotta refresh. Or new to me. I like a new to me. Deep dive. Ro Rich: So did you Allie: That makes me think of so baby Alley in high school. I did costume design I was a theater nerd production costume design. And yeah, like yeah, theater kids. You didn't know this? We're learning live in real time, Ro Rich: I didn't know this. Now you tell us on live to this recording. Allie: Robin. I was a major theater kid in high school. Fergie: You're you're giving the energy and I'm I'm glad to meet you know. Hello, Ken. Hello, cousin. Allie: And hello, kid. And in my senior year, the fall play we did was You Can't Take It With You. And Fergie: Hmm. Allie: it's so funny you talk about lurk researching, going back, iterating, building references. So one of the characters in You Can't Take It With You, the lore is that she comes from Russian aristocracy. And so As a high schooler like, okay, I to the library, I checked out a bunch of books on Russian history, I looked at pictures, but looking back, I was missing the gap of looking at an image and then how you actually take those references and then put them through your brain and the process to actually translate it to a costume that a person is then wearing on a stage. And I also, Fergie: Hmm. Allie: too, at the time as a high schooler What I was missing was this larger historical context of in the early nineteen hundreds, what was politically, economically happening Fergie: Yes. Allie: in Russia, why this woman would even be in New York in the nineteen twenties in the first place and have a mysterious backstory. All of that was just totally over my head. fun and it was high school theater, so no one was like really paying that close of attention. Ro Rich: The critics didn't show up. Fergie: Ha ha ha Allie: Yeah. But I think now, if if Allie now had like designed that costume, I would have had such a deeper understanding of that character or her story, the reference. And I ramble all this to say, how do you how do you kind of look at your past work and do you look at it fondly? Do you look at it with a critical eye? How do you feel like those past experiences, failures, successes, how do they help bring Yeah. Fergie: as yet another neurodivergent millennial, an elder one even, it's always with a critical lens I look back at my work. And that's not to say I'm wincing. I'll look back and go, That was a solid design. Good on you. Or you could have gone a little deeper, a little harder there. that felt like you really were just skimming the surface and you might have wanted to look a little deeper in that fabric choice. You I think you could've made a different decision. and that's all to just help me going forward, you know? I don't really see the point in looking back at my design work unless it is specifically going to be illustrative. so I'm I'm not flipping it back in my portfolio a lot. unless I genuinely feel like there's something there's a reference I can revisit and a renewed conversation that can happen there. 'Cause I'm I I hate having the same conversation without new data points, that's irritating to me. And that's how I think of my design work is is is is a conversation that I'm having with the rest of the team, with the audience. I don't see the point in revisiting that conversation unless there's something new to talk about. Allie: Mm. Ro Rich: I'm curious, now that I know that both of you are theater nerds, so do you start all right, so we know that research is important and we have to go back to understand history, we have to do the we have to do the research and analysis. Then once you do that, would you go straight to sketching or do you go to draping? Like can you so because you have to move from those ideas, they become they're I don't know, what would we call an idea? Is that like in the fourth dimension? I don't know. So like they're there, then they become like a two D concept in writing, right? Also the script. And so you've got that and then you move from two D you have to get into three D, right? Eventually you you gotta build something. So then how do you move from that idea phase into either sketch or like you're gonna start to play with making something? How do you move from that space into the making? Fergie: sketch. I'll start with doodles, rough sketches, just sort of nothing pretty. Sometimes I don't even show them to the director. depends on what the process is with that director. Some directors that I've worked with are like, please show me how you're thinking. Sometimes I'll be sketching in a conversation with the director and go, you know, like that. You know, what do we think of this? that sort of texture, is that what you meant? so it's it's always a sketch for me. and you have to provide costume renderings which are illustrations of a costume Ro Rich: Okay. Fergie: to a theater company. you you provide preliminary renderings and that's sort of the the base concept of the design and you go over it with the director, with the whoever's constructing the costumes in that theater company, if it's a theater company that has a costume shop and and then you go finesse, you finesse and then you present final renderings. And Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: final renderings, that's the costume that's gonna be on stage as close to that as possible. Allie: Mm-hmm. Fergie: There could be a fabric Ro Rich: If you're thinking. Fergie: shortage or a a casting change in the interim, but the Ro Rich: Anyway. Fergie: final rendering, that's the that's the final design, right? Yes. Ro Rich: Okay, that's very fashion design of you. Is that a part of the process that you like, that you really enjoy getting to that finalization through the sketch concepts? Okay. Fergie: I mean I love sketching. it's it's fun. a friend of mine is getting married and I I have six different wedding dresses. It's ridiculous. Allie: Are you done her wedding dress? Fergie: I I I said I would happily sketch out some of her ideas and then next thing I knew I had six render I'm I'm extra. I do enz enjoy the drawing process, just free forming, you know. for me, Allie: love it. Fergie: my favorite part of the process is when we are in tech. actually. tech week Allie: Mm. Fergie: can be two three days, it can be two weeks, depending on the size and scale of the production. But technical rehearsals is when we move everything into the theater, onto the set, onto the stage. that's Ro Rich: Okay. Fergie: when we have the actors on the stage, in the set, with the props, in the costumes, under the lighting, and we're checking to make sure everything is the way we want it to look in in the process of getting ready to open the show and have an audience watch it. So Tech Week is long crazy hours, ten out of twelves. it is lots of tweaking, a lot of exhaustion, a lot of patience on everybody's part, especially the actors, because oftentimes technical rehearsals are not full runs of a show. It is Ro Rich: Mm. Fergie: all right, we're doing scene one again. We gotta check the lighting levels here, hit your mark, say some lines, okay, stop, go back. We gotta check that cue again, stop, go back. Okay, we're gonna do this quick change, we're gonna run this quick change until we've got it under 15 seconds. Let's do it again, let's do it again, let's do it again, stop, watch, let's do it again. So it's a lot of patience on actor's part. and it's cold. Ro Rich: Where does that fall in the process with between like you did sketching and like how much time does that take for you to build like for sets to be built and costumes to be built and then you're in tech week? Fergie: so that's in production. So pre production is when I would be researching and sketching. Ro Rich: Okay. Fergie: and that is some weeks before we get to the stage. Ro Rich: Okay. Fergie: but in pre production that can be mm, seven weeks, nine weeks, it can be three months, it can be eight months. It d it really depends on the show, and then I will be in what we call residence and that is when the show is being constructed. if I'm not personally overseeing construction, like doing it with my own hands, I'm in a theater company's costume shop, I am in fittings, I'm having conversations with the the drapers and the stitchers, the cobblers, habadashery, jewelry makers, all those people, depending on if it's a huge company, all those people, if it's a smaller company, you know, two or three people. making sure that the show is built to spec. and when things need to shift and change, I'm on hand to go, no, it's okay, we change this fabric. let me redesign that sleeve. You're right. Let me see if I can fix that. she actually needs more pocket. Okay, let's figure out where we can stick some more pockets. let me figure that out for you. and then once everything is built, that's when we get an attack, and then we open. And I go by. Ro Rich: okay. You don't even Allie: Yeah. So tech week should be like the final the finishing touches. Like we're about to go to print. Like let's just fix the typos. Not yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Fergie: Yes. We're perfecting. We're perfecting, but it's not there yet. And that's my favorite part is it's the last exit before you know the highway just goes on without you. Allie: Showtime baby. Fergie: so I enjoy that that final tweaking process very much. but there's a lots of moments within the design process that make me happy. I love the first fitting. I love the design presentation when I see what the other designers are doing, what the the lighting is gonna look like, what the sound design is. I I love that. Allie: That's Ro Rich: Do you Fergie: ha. Ro Rich: all not collaborate beforehand? So like as lighting is figuring things out and you're doing costuming, do you all not collaborate to have those conversations or it's just you like it when it comes to life and you actually see it set on stage? Fergie: I l I love the conversations, and I think that's why I love seeing it come to life because it's the fruition of a lot of conversations, and a a lot of moving parts and details that have been shifted and tweaked and reconsidered. and I love all of that coming together. And that feeling of, hey, it's gelling, it's gelling, it's gelling, it's gelling. Okay, we might be on to something here. I think we made a cohesive piece of art, guys. Like that's really I enjoy that. Ro Rich: It's alive. Allie: you mentioned our and there's always a sort of interesting dialogue and conversation and art and design of like design is about design is for another audience, right? Design is for someone else, art is in some ways for the artist to express their intention and where does that come into your process? Where are you making things that you feel like are a reflection of your ideas and your creativity and your art? When is your work production? When is it you're in service of another person's vision? Fergie: I think I think I'm always sort of walking both. I think that's I'm wearing both of those hats always. there is no part of any of my designs that don't have me all over it, if you know me, you're you're gonna look at that design and it will make sense to you that it is a thing that came from my brain, but the service to the production Is the purpose of the art? artist. Art has an audience, that's kinda how it works. Even if the the art is to the gods and you're painting in a cave, Allie: Yeah. Fergie: right? if it's to the future, you know, but there's an audience and the the audience is always in the back of my mind when I'm when I'm doing this work is always in the back of my mind is you know how is this gonna land with the audience because costuming hair and makeup set design all lighting all of these things that we perceive are different languages aesthetic languages that we all universally understand and every culture has different tweaks but they're things that we all sort of understand to to be a certain way in our cultures. A businessman wears a suit a flamboyant person wears a cape in twenty twenty six. flambo Ro Rich: We'd like to see businessmen in capes. Can you bring that can you make that happen for us? Like Allie: More cake. Ro Rich: my gosh. Fergie: About a flamboyant person in fifteen sixty-two Venice, not necessarily just capes are just the domain of a flamboyant person then. Capes are just happening. So if I want to say that Ro Rich: Capes were just happening. Capes were like effective design. Fergie: this person is flamboyant, I gotta go harder than they wore cape. Ro Rich: yeah, that was still true. So like what makes a good design? So as you're thinking about this, like in when you see shows and like different things and you're you're putting your own signature on things, what makes a good design and what makes it effective? Fergie: Does it make sense? Really it's it's that simple. Allie: Yeah. Fergie: Yeah, does it make sense? Like, in the context of what I'm watching on the stage, did that make sense? If it is supposed to be a snowy day and somebody comes out in flip-flops and hoochie shorts. Ro Rich: That's comedic effect. Fergie: Yeah, what's happening? What's happening? Did that make sense? If it does not make sense, you know, if if there's a scene and everyone's talking about, I gotta get my coat from the vestibule, but they never get a coat. That's not a very effective design in that scene to me. that failed the very first hurdle. it did not even clear that, which is Take everything that the script says and make sure that's part of the costume design. Right? That's like the Ro Rich: that it translates. Well, I think you talked to us about an exercise you do with your students. I feel like you should do it here around interpretation and semiotics. So like what the audience expects and aligns to it's a snowy day, Fergie: Sure. Ro Rich: if somebody comes out in Hoochie shorts and flip flops, that's either a comedic effect or like they is some they have been robbed and they they have nothing else to wear. So like when you're Fergie: Yeah. Ro Rich: getting people aligned to interpret an expectation Which is what you're hoping to meet, you know, some level of on audience expectation, or you're taking them on a wild ride. How do you do that? How do you teach the novices to do that? Fergie: Okay, so so I'll do it just the way I do when I'm working with like the young young ones. So close Ro Rich: The youths. Fergie: your eyes. I'm going to Allie: Eyes are closed. Fergie: I'm going to tell you about a woman, and I want you to tell me who this woman is, how she's dressed. Everybody ready? Victoria was the sort of woman who loved to wear pearls. What does Victoria look like? What is she wearing? Go. Allie: I immediately think of pearls, I think like nineteen fifties. I think college student class Fergie: Mm. Allie: university wearing you know, I'm carrying my books and I'm walking on campus and my A-line skirt and my my little short sleeve, wool cardigan with my little buttons, Fergie: Mm-hmm. Allie: maybe a little, you know, chignon, a little bun. And you know, she's just gallivanting Fergie: Okay. Allie: across campus with her books and her pearls. Yeah. Yeah. Fergie: she sounds fun. Okay. Ro what what does Victoria look like to you? Ro Rich: Yeah, she's progressive being in college in the fifties. I love that for her. my God. Allie: I was thinking I went to an all women's college, so I'm like, she's like clearly on campus at an all women's college, you know, Mount Holyoke, Wellesley. She's just walking and going to class, you know? Her pearls. Okay. Fergie: I love it, I love it, I love it. Yes, okay. Ro Rich: my gosh. You know what's funny is actually the first image I got was from Cruel Intentions, if you all remember that nineties redo Fergie: Yeah, yeah. Ro Rich: of you know, the girls being at prep school, but the idea that like those pearls, yes, they're a wealth signal, but they hide something more that's underneath. Because the surface of that woman is that, she's in pearls, she belongs to a certain echelon of society. However, that doesn't tell you the whole story. So in my mind she has secrets. So sure, she might be wearing pearls. They might be really long. she's in glasses, she is moving through the world because also the world allows her a certain passage looking that way. So she can get into certain rooms that others can't, but what else has she got going on? So I see her as more of a a slippery character, which I don't know why I just I had that cruel intentions reference of like, mm, there's meanness there. Fergie: So if we break down what you've both told me, Victoria is of a certain class to both of you. Allie: Mm-hmm. Yep. Fergie: Victoria is an intellectual. Victoria cares a great deal about fashion. Right? Allie: Mm-hmm. Fergie: there's a certain energy to Victoria that both of you have have sort of alluded to, of femininity that is powerful. So we can start building a character from this, do you see? because Allie: Yeah. think Fergie: there's a universal Allie: Yeah. Fergie: understanding that we've tapped into of what pearls mean in our culture when a woman is wearing Allie: I also think about for me when you when you said that prompt, the dialogue and the language had a huge part to play in my perception. So like 'cause Fergie: Hmm. Allie: you said she was the sort of woman y even your delivery Fergie: Yes. Allie: impacted how I interpreted the vision. If you had said Victoria rocked a pearl, I might Fergie: Mm. Allie: like a punk rocker in the nineteen eighties in some underground club in London. You know what I mean? Or if you didn't Fergie: That's true. That's true. Allie: name the gender and you said they were the sort of person who wore pearls, I might think it's like somebody who's Gen Z today, a guy wearing a pearl necklace. So I think Yeah. Fergie: They do love their pearls, yeah. Ro Rich: Victor Victoria. Allie: the language and how you physically delivered it is also for me really interesting. How do you interpret the character? It's not just the Fergie: Yes. Allie: the pearls, it's the whole visual language. Fergie: You're the first person to ever clock that trap that I put into that exercise. because how worded does Ro Rich: I did notice I liked it. Fergie: matter. Allie: Yeah. Fergie: it does matter. You can drive it a little bit. And the reason Allie: Yeah. Fergie: that is important, and the reason I do that is back to script analysis. Because the language of a script is very important, right? Again, just as you said, if I'd said Vicky Rock Pearls, that's a totally different person than Victoria was the sort of woman who liked to wear pearls, right? So the language of how we're describing clothing matters as much as the language of the clothing itself, right? And these are both things that you must be aware of as a costume designer and that you have to manipulate as a costume designer. So that's why Ro Rich: Yes, he can. Fergie: it's that first exercise that I do. Ro Rich: It's really it's it's great because we talked about this a little before, about the idea of like design semantics and semiotics that we as a culture already come with a lot of notions of things that we have consumed in culture. And so Fergie: Mm. Ro Rich: we are applying that assumption to to what we're seeing, to what we're about to experience. So I might assume this person comes out wearing pearls and she's in a tweed sh suit and we're like, she's old money, this or that and then she opens her mouth and she's got like this crazy, you know, her dialogue is very different. It doesn't match the visual picture that you've given us. So I think that I was gonna Allie: You got a southy Boston accent and you're like, Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: say that, Allie. I was gonna say she's got like this wicked crazy bastard accent. Like, well Fergie: no. Where Allie: Pearls. Fergie: they they say ka pak and bubla that that god. Ro Rich: There's a video right now of a lady there my neighbors told me about it. We went to dinner. This guy says to his daughter, who's like two, we're gonna go on the boat this weekend. Where are we gonna go? And little girl goes, To the Haba, and he goes, No, the harbor. And you hear the mother yell from the other room, she's saying it correctly. It's Haba. She's not saying Allie: It's hot. Ro Rich: it wrong. It's Haba. So she's like yelling not to correct the daughter. I die. Fergie: dear, dear. That's that is that's beautiful and terrifying. Ro Rich: Isn't that hilarious? That's funny, the idea of like matching dialogue with a visual with a like time and place. Allie: Very cool. Fergie: This matters. All of this matters because again, we're world building. And there's a million Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Yes. Fergie: details that you are processing every day about the culture, the world that you're living in, that you don't notice that you're processing, but you will notice if they are gone. Ro Rich: It feels incomplete. Fergie: notice that they moved your Ro Rich: Well, we talked about that. Allie: I wonder Ro Rich: You'd said that, what breaks a an effective design would be repetition and saturation where you're like, I've seen this a million times, it's it's almost old, but then also we're looking for a level of authenticity. So we respond Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: to that on a like deep visceral level and we can tell where something feels we clock it. Fergie: It's allowed us to survive as a species. Ro Rich: Absolutely, yes. Fergie: Right. We have suspicious minds. That's just the nature of being people. and so we absolutely sense when something is disturbing the force, right? Ro Rich: Mm-hmm. Fergie: I I've seen film I don't like to like shout out other costumes designers and say I saw this movie and I hated your costumes. But I've certainly just like any other designer seen films and looked at the costumes and gone, Was that studio interference? Did the director fundamentally misunderstand the period they were asking you to design in? Or were you just not there? You know? Allie: Yeah. Right. Ro Rich: Just own it in. Fergie: You know, like I mean get your get your cloony loony coins, but like what? You know. I'm sure Allie: Yeah. Fergie: that some people have seen shows that might have like whee you know, for which, you know, sorry. there are lots of factors that go into how authentic what your vision is, how true your vision is. and how true your vision originally was, let alone how true it is by the time it gets to the stage. but I do think that there's an a knee-jerk reaction when something is off. Review I ever got. A critic said that my costumes weren't just costumes, they were fashion. And I went, good, Allie: Yeah. Fergie: you got what I was I was trying to do. it was a screwball comedy set in the n late nineteen twenties, early thirties, and I wanted it very much to feel like the fashion of the elites of that period, right? So that was really exciting that I had authentically pulled that off. Ro Rich: you know who would love that? Is our friend Jinx Monsoon. Fergie: Cause 'cause fashion I'm and the truth is I tried very hard to always make you think you are just looking at somebody dressed. I don't like a costume that looks like and feels like a costume because there's an implication that that is farce. That that isn't that isn't truth. and if a costume needs to look like a costume in a show, that's one thing, because we're being authentic to the requirements of the show. But I I'm in un uninterested in caricature. so it has to be character driven to get to that point of, yeah, I believe that. I didn't even realize I was looking at a costume. I didn't even I didn't think about it. Ro Rich: Well, Edith Head, her philosophy was the audience should notice the actors, not the clothes. but that was film. And film has different lighting constraints and the camera's farther away. well in some cases actually quite close. But then with theater, like your vantage point is pretty far removed. And so we speaking of Shakespeare We'd talked about before you were telling me that like King Lear's costume needs to telegraph that sort of tension before anyone speaks. And so is stage Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: costume a little bit the opposite of screen costume? Like, what's the invisible design element that applies to your medium, do you think? Fergie: The audience I think is the invisible element. Ro Rich: Okay. Fergie: because the the biggest to me difference between designing theater and film is that I have a living breathing human interacting with a living breathing human. So I disagree with Head in that the audience absolutely needs to notice the costume. The costume Ro Rich: I agree. Fergie: has to be something that the audience clocks and accepts. and embraces. as much as they accept and embrace the living body in those costumes, speaking to them and for them. so the invisible element is is the audience's energy. Ro Rich: That's true. There's no cutting, there's no editing, there's no like we're gonna run this later through whatever watch that we want to. And so, what's maybe a costume choice you've made for a practical reason? Because also actors have to change costumes sometimes. So like there's constraints Fergie: Yes, yes. Ro Rich: there, that affect the whole show. Like, have tell me about maybe a time where you have to think about that a lot, or do you are you setting people in costumes and they're not doing a lot of changes, or it depends on the show? Fergie: Feel like construction is really where where that comes into play. So we're not using closures from antiquity, you know. We're gonna be using Ro Rich: True. Fergie: zippers, we're Allie: Felcro. Fergie: gonna be snaps. actually I really try to avoid using velcro whenever possible. unless Allie: 'cause of the noise? Fergie: the noise, unless I want that velcro sound and have discussed it with the sound designer, there is nothing more horrifying to me than the sound of velcro ripping in the weed. No, thank you. No, no, absolutely not. I don't care if the Vulcans invented it. I am not a huge Velcro fan. Ro Rich: That's the movie. Fergie: for for professional work. Velcro shoes, hell yeah. I I love my Reebok freestyles, but like not not on stage, not you Allie: In a theater. Fergie: no, I'll use a nice discreet quiet snap. or or magnets or something. Or a zip. so we're using modern construction methods so that actors can get into things in and out of them quickly. I'm not draping a stola or a toga. That's not there's a scene. Allie: Right. Yeah. Fergie: So that would be where we we have that sort of that trick is how we're constructing costumes to get things happening faster and easier, you know. We're not tying ties, they are pre tied or maybe they snap on, you know? That kind of thing. the the pants might be tear away. The the vest might not actually have a back underneath that jacket, you know, things like that. Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: If the audience cannot see it, it doesn't need to be there for construction purposes, Allie: Yeah. Fergie: except to hold it onto a body, you know. So there's certain fussy, detailed fashion finangling that you would see in clothing construction that you're not gonna see in costume construction. in terms of the design, I'm I'm gonna design you a Victorian ball gown, right? That's what it's gonna look like. The way Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: it's constructed, it should zip up like a really comfortable prom dress that you got for fourteen ninety nine at Marshall's, okay? If you know you Ro Rich: Yes. do you wanna talk about trends in production design and how the internet has created design literacy around Fergie: Hmm. Ro Rich: makeup and costuming. as audiences are becoming more design literate? Fergie: I think it means you gotta step up your game, right? there are so many wonderful content creators who are talking about constructing costumes, about how to apply makeup, how to to study color theory, to understand undertones, to understand silhouette and texture. and these are all words that used to just be in, you know, ateliers and costume shops and and are now in, you know, the average person's mouth, you know, I'm at the drugstore the other day and I'm heard to this woman she was talking to a sales associate and she's going, I'm you I've got I've got kind of red undertone so this makeup when it dries down and oxidizes makes me look a little grey and I I'm listening to this and going, you know, fifteen years ago that's that's the language I would have been speaking to other makeup. designers, right? so there is definitely a a new literacy coming in, which I love. I love. Learn your undertones if that's something you want to do. Yes. Allie: Mm-hmm. Fergie: If you want to put on makeup, learn to do it in a way that makes you look and feel good. Absolutely. Learn undertones. So what that means for me as a designer is people are gonna be coming to see shows with maybe a deeper appreciation for what I do. Which is nice, but it definitely means I have to step up my game. If you know, they're watching. Quick. Look professional. You know, that kind of thing. I don't see there are things about this internet age I think that are very damning and frustrating. But the best brightest dream of the internet was always that it was the commons and it was a place to share information and grow. And so people logging in to learn about how roughs were constructed for the Tudor Court. Learn about that, please. I geek out with me. Ruffs are fascinating. Ro Rich: Mm. Fergie: you know. so I think it makes for a more appreciative and respectful audience, is what I think. it also can make for some what is it, the the Monday morning quarterbacks? Is that is that the Ro Rich: Yes, Monday morning quarterbacks. Yes. God. Fergie: Yeah. It can make for that as well, right? where somebody who has blessed them, spent, you know, sixty hours watching things on the internet, now thinks that they could do the job better than somebody who has, you know, degrees and thirty years experience and it's like, you know, like fifteen Tonies. But yeah, yeah, you absolutely you Ro Rich: Yeah, go off pop off. Fergie: You you got that bud, you know it better than that designer. So there there is that aspect. But I feel like those people are loud, but they are not legion. Ro Rich: Hm. Fergie: Which is I think a a general commentary I have about internet culture and social media culture in general is it. The annoying people are loud, but they are not legion. They're more reasonable people. We just don't make as much noise. Ro Rich: No. not Fergie: But you know, if you're deep diving into design videos to keep the loneliness at bay, you know, how you medicate is how you medicate, okay? I'm not I'm not here to judge you. Your process is your process, you know. Ro Rich: You wanna learn. Fergie: you know, yeah. I feel like that's a a better use of your time. It's learning something. but I think it also raises a a discernment in terms of this war we are of fighting as artists against AI. Allie: No. Fergie: 'Cause I think a more discerning audience immediately clocks slop. Ro Rich: Mm. Fergie: And immediately resents slot. They they'll resent it on behalf of artists they've never met. You know, like Allie: Mean goes back to your your statement of effective versus ineffective. We're we're designed as humans. We recognize what's authentic, what's inauthentic, what's appropriate, inappropriate. Yeah. Fergie: A chat bot cannot. The best of a chatbot is the worst of its programmers' prejudices. Allie: Mm. Fergie: And it cannot recognize authenticity. It cannot recognize groundedness. a a AI design, an AI concept, I hate using the term AI art, but it is an oxymoron, cannot be rooted in anything. It is ones and zeros. It does not root, right? Ro Rich: Yes. Allie: Yeah. Fergie: it does not understand root. It doesn't understand the dirt where s an audience is sitting. It does not understand the dirt in which the playwright was sitting. It does not do you see what I mean? It doesn't understand the light that was hitting that part of the planet on that day and that year. It doesn't understand context. Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: so I think a more discerning audience immediately they are in tune. There's an a a clear link to them with context. They they are tapping into their understanding of the context all the time, as they're consuming art, as they're moving through their lives. And so they immediately are recognizing something that does not have context as inauthentic and creepy and weird. Ro Rich: Or maybe they want it to be inauthentic and creepy and weird, and that is another topic entirely. We will not get into it today. Fergie: That's a horse of a different color. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Allie: Yeah. All right. Well with that, let's bring it to our closing segment. First off, Argie, this is fantastic. thank you for sharing all of your wisdom and your insight. we like to close out our episodes with just a fun little sign-off, which we call our design darling of the week. So this is when it comes to costume, wig, makeup, hair, production design, what is an iconic symbol, object, interaction? What do you tell people? You want to know about this topic culturally, this is your cultural touchstone. if you have an idea, you're welcome to start, or Robin and I, we can give ours first as inspiration. lovely. Okay. So Fergie: I think I wanna hear how this goes Ro Rich: Allie go. Allie: my design darling of the week. When we were talking offline, you were speaking about Sajreed and Gene Kelly in See in the Rain. After that conversation, Fergie: Mm. Yes. Allie: I just went into like a deep dive Wikipedia rabbit hole and I just stumbled upon one of my favorites, which is Busby Berkeley and Zigfield Foley production design. So though Fergie: Yes, yes. Allie: My design darling of the week is just the extravagant musical numbers of the 30s and 40s that we see in the gold diggers for Bugsby Berkeley, in Zigfield Girl with Zigfield Foleys, specifically like Hetty Lamar when she comes down in just that like stunning Fergie: Yeah. Allie: white ethereal gown with the crown Fergie: Yes, the Allie: of stars around her and just the jet. Black hair and the bosser Fergie: Yeah. Allie: skin and I'm like, mm, huh, chef's kiss and those big musical numbers, people walking down weird shapes and hundreds of extras, and people kicking their legs in the air and water spurting from this crowd. Fergie: Ha ha. Allie: It's excess, it's extravagance, it's glamour, grace, beauty. I love it. There we go. Ro Rich: Alright, mine is not nearly not nearly Allie: It has an aesthetic for me now. Ro Rich: as like ethereal as that. Mine is the ghost light. And so I would like also for you to confirm Allie: The ghost lights. Ro Rich: or deny for me about this, Fergie Ferg. So the ghost light is the single bare bulb on the stand, supposed to be left glowing, center stage, and an empty dark theater once everyone's gone home. Ten like Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: technically it's like an OSHA thing that someone could fall into an orchestra pit or Off the apron in a pitch black theater. It's boring, it's sensible, it is insurance adjacent. And so Fergie: Yes. Ro Rich: but nobody talks about it this way. The stage hands are like, Allie: Insurance. Ro Rich: It's here to w ward off ghosts or give their the ghosts their turn to perform once the humans are gone. Or it's to keep the theater from ever fully going dark because a theater that goes all the way dark might never turn back on. So it's like it's it's like Fergie: Yes. We didn't get into the superstition and the spiritualiz world of of theatre. But it there's Ro Rich: Yes. Fergie: it's a world of deep spiritual superstitions and and beliefs. And yes, the ghost light is is a powerful totem. Yes. Ro Rich: Okay. So that is in every Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: theater, if you're a real legit theater, you do have a ghost light. Fergie: You have a ghost light, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Allie: Yeah. yeah. that's great, Robin. That's a great one. Fergie: That's beautiful. Ro Rich: Yeah. Fergie: That's beautiful. design darling. I'm just gonna go off of something that I've been doing this week. I I have rather severe insomnia and I stumbled across a YouTube channel that has the complete series of a show I loved as a kid called The Storyteller. It was by from Jim Henson. and it was Lert John Hurt. I I wanted to say the war doctor. Such a nerd. but John Hurt is the storyteller who tells folklore, to the audience and to his very, very cynical dog. And and as I was nodding off, the credits were rolling on an episode and it said that the the creature consul consultant was Ron Muick. and I sat up because Ron Muick is my favorite sculptor of all time when I was studying sculpture in school, he was my my idol. I do not sculpt in any way like Ronick, but I would s go to see his work. I would stare for hours. I would sit on the floor of the Hirschhorn in DC and and stare at his sculpture and just breathe with it. I swear to God I was waiting for it to blink. And and I saw his his name and I I was delighted because I watched this sho show as a s a small child and I realized he had been influencing my understanding of art and aesthetic before I'd ever stepped into a sculpture studio, before I'd ever started studying art, and it made me really, really happy. So my design darling is Ron Muick whose work I have carried in my heart since I was very small. and who has been a huge influence on my work. So shout out to you, sir. Thank you for what you do. Ro Rich: Amazing. I thought it was gonna be your Bob Mackey dress that you have framed on the wall. Fergie: I do have him on the wall and anyone who knows me knows I am mildly obsessed with Bob Mackey, but yeah, I was just watching the Storyteller the other night, so that's that's what came to mind. Ro Rich: Love it. Fergie: And absolutely check it out. It's a great show. It it's held up really well. It's on YouTube. You can just type in the storyteller Ro Rich: Where's it streaming? Where is what's it on? It's on YouTube. Okay. Allie: So Fergie: and yeah. It's it's darling is what it is, to be honest with you. Ro Rich: excellent. Allie: Also frame Bob Mackie. I need a photo afterwards. There you go. I need to know what dress this is. And did Cher wear it? Like Fergie: it is hanging on my on my childhood bedroom in my mother's house. I will see if I've got a photo of it. But But yeah, that's the gown I would rescue from the house in the fire. I'd be like, Ma, you're good, right? And I would be like You're fine. Ro Rich: Well ha ha. Allie: I'm taking the Mackey. Coming with me. Fergie: Thank you both for this. This was really, really fun. Allie: thank Ro Rich: Yeah, thank you so Allie: And yeah. Ro Rich: much, yeah, for being a guest and pontificating with us and doing Fergie: Ha ha. Ro Rich: all the waxing poetic. I mean, that's what we do all the time, so or at least we try. So appreciate you joining us in this little in this little ride. It was a good time. Fergie: Any time. This was really good fun. Allie: and Fergie: Goodbye, darlings. Ro Rich: what's your Canadian sign off? Fergie: have a nice day. Every Ro Rich: hey, okay. Allie: Hey Fergie: Canadian in the like a fifty mile radius is flinching and they don't know why. we just say bye. Ro Rich: Okay. I don't know how French it might get. Fergie: We we just say bye and then eat some ketchup chips. Okay. Ro Rich: Wow. Right Allie: Yeah. Ro Rich: on. Allie: Bye guys. Ro Rich: Right. Right. Fergie: Thanks again. Bye.