Latest / Trapped Souls Podcast / Sam Baltrusis

Transcript

Sam Baltrusis · Trapped Souls Podcast

0:00
SPEAKER_00: Hi, I'm Ryan.
0:01
SPEAKER_00: Um, welcome to Trap Souls.
0:02
SPEAKER_00: I'm here with Sam Baltrousis, paranormal author.
0:06
SPEAKER_00: You've probably seen him on TV.
0:07
SPEAKER_00: I think you've been on 12 or 15 different episodes.
0:10
SPEAKER_00: What I've tried to count, I lost track.
0:12
SPEAKER_00: But welcome to the show.
0:14
SPEAKER_01: Hey, thanks for having me.
0:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm real excited about the the Cleveland Paracon coming up.
0:18
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, it seems like you're jumping a lot of different paracons.
0:21
SPEAKER_00: And, you know, we talked a little earlier before we jumped on here.
0:24
SPEAKER_00: It's you know about promoting your books and all that, but it's also about meeting the people, too.
0:28
SPEAKER_00: So I mean, this is Cleveland's first paracon.
0:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm surprised.
0:33
SPEAKER_00: You know, it's Ohio's a very haunted state.
0:35
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
0:36
SPEAKER_00: And it took this long.
0:38
SPEAKER_00: Um, I think it's gonna be a great time.
0:40
SPEAKER_00: Um, we have a lot of great people going there.
0:42
SPEAKER_00: You and um you're speaking there too, aren't you?
0:46
SPEAKER_01: I am, yeah.
0:47
SPEAKER_01: Like I've I've actually, I mean, I've been to Cleveland before, but I've never been there in a paranormal capacity.
0:52
SPEAKER_01: So I'm very excited about this location.
0:55
SPEAKER_01: Uh and so so yeah, I'm gonna speak there.
0:57
SPEAKER_01: I don't, I think it's like a it's like gonna be a short talk.
0:59
SPEAKER_01: I'm not even sure what I'm gonna talk about, but probably we'll focus on.
1:03
SPEAKER_01: So I have two books coming out this season.
1:05
SPEAKER_01: So I have um my book, Haunted Castles of New England, uh, and that's coming out in August.
1:10
SPEAKER_01: And then I have um my the one that I'm that I'm just actually I was up all night working on it, uh Lizzie Borden and the Family Curse.
1:18
SPEAKER_01: So um I'm distantly related to Lizzie Borden, and uh we don't know who she is.
1:23
SPEAKER_01: She um was acquitted of murdering her father and stepmother uh in 1892.
1:28
SPEAKER_01: It was a crime of the century.
1:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh Ryan Murphy, who um does the monster series on Netflix, is is actually working on uh working on a version on Lizzie Borden.
1:39
SPEAKER_01: So um the goal is to have the book out when the the TV show comes out.
1:44
SPEAKER_01: So super excited about that.
1:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's uh Lizzie Burden.
1:49
SPEAKER_00: Uh is that the X-Murder House?
1:50
SPEAKER_00: One of X Murder House, right?
1:52
SPEAKER_01: Well, but that's that's the that's the actual crime scene.
1:55
SPEAKER_01: So the uh so and I did a show called Curse of Lizzie Borden uh with Dave Schrader and Chris Fleming.
2:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh and that's kind of what I'm what I'm known for.
2:02
SPEAKER_01: And I'm also related to her.
2:04
SPEAKER_01: So uh the book is gonna go into the idea that maybe that there is a family curse, uh, that there well there's kind of a really bizarre connection to other family members, and including myself.
2:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh like we have uh people like Eileen Warnos, uh who's distantly related to Lizzie Borden, uh, other people that are that aren't as well known, like uh Sarah Maria Cornell.
2:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh and if you watch the show Curse of Lizzie Borden, um I channeled a woman named Eliza Borden who murdered her two children.
2:35
SPEAKER_01: So it's uh looking at the idea, perhaps there's a curse, but it's also using the the concept of a of the family bloodline to uh give a voice to these women.
2:46
SPEAKER_01: Some of them are potential perpetrators, uh, and others are actually victims.
2:52
SPEAKER_01: So uh another person that that has recently come up from the bloodline that was really shocking was Marilyn Monroe.
3:00
SPEAKER_01: And she's connected to Lizzie Board and to myself as well.
3:04
SPEAKER_01: Uh, she didn't know who her biological father was, and there was DNA testing that was done about three years ago uh to confirm that she's related to us.
3:12
SPEAKER_00: Wow.
3:13
SPEAKER_00: I didn't expect that, did you?
3:15
SPEAKER_01: It was shocking.
3:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, the the thing that what's my whole life is like serendipitous.
3:20
SPEAKER_01: Like, even I'm actually not from this from New England, and I you know, I was born in Florida, my dad was in the Navy, actually lived in Chicago uh uh for most of my until I was eight years old and then moved back to Florida.
3:34
SPEAKER_01: But uh yeah, so like my uh the idea of having uh like a family lineage tied to some of the most well-known, infamous names in New England was never even like I on my radar.
3:47
SPEAKER_01: Although I did have dreams uh about the Lizzie Borden case for many years, also very drawn to the Salem Woods trials, uh as someone that went to college that focused on very history and that sort of thing.
4:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I've always been drawn to my family, uh, but I didn't realize that was related to the bad guys, yeah.
4:07
SPEAKER_00: Right.
4:08
SPEAKER_00: Um so when you do write these books, you do a lot of research, obviously.
4:13
SPEAKER_00: Do you like go out and you know you're an old school journalist?
4:17
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you talked about being a journalist.
4:18
SPEAKER_00: Do you go like interview people and get their stories?
4:22
SPEAKER_00: Do you go investigate the places, go see the places?
4:25
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, I I'm an immersion journalist, so I literally sometimes work at a location to immerse myself.
4:33
SPEAKER_01: Salem, for example, I the my most the book that I'm known for is called Ghosts of Salem.
4:38
SPEAKER_01: And I was a tour guide in Salem, Massachusetts for many years.
4:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and then I also I worked at like museums and that sort of thing.
4:46
SPEAKER_01: So I'm I immerse myself and I get stories, and yes, I'm old school.
4:50
SPEAKER_01: So I'll go out, talk to people.
4:51
SPEAKER_01: Usually people, usually it's like not like a formal interview, sometimes it is.
4:56
SPEAKER_01: Uh it's more like just sort of casual conversations.
4:59
SPEAKER_01: And I, you know, kind of getting back to the the fact that I was not originally from New England, kind of kind of my whole life was like a weird serendipitous journey.
5:08
SPEAKER_01: Uh things kind of people kind of cross my path and I don't know why, but until maybe later.
5:15
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it's all about serendipities and and I kind of let things happen organically and and but and I also immerse myself there.
5:23
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, so I interview people, um, investigate locations.
5:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, I I you know the Lizzie Borden book, for example, uh I've been investigated the murder house about probably like 20 times and before even filming the show Curse of Lizzie Borden at the house.
5:40
SPEAKER_01: So I have a lot of um a lot of history there, and there's new owners at the Lizzie Borden house too.
5:47
SPEAKER_01: So um, and also focusing on other locations, like like the place where Eliza Borden lived, but with the woman that killed her children.
5:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a church called the Abbey, which is where Lizzie Borden, that's where her church was.
5:59
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I really I I love going to these locations, and to me, the research is the funnest part.
6:04
SPEAKER_01: I love it.
6:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
6:06
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I don't write books or anything, but just going in those places, you can kind of feel that energy, and I'm sure that's helping you create not create.
6:14
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, that's the wrong word, you know, write these books.
6:17
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, create, yeah.
6:18
SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's create in the sense that like me cap capturing what's happening, like like it's nonfiction, so all the stuff that's in my books is not like made up, you know, it's just sort of like things that weird things that happen, you know, along the way.
6:32
SPEAKER_01: And if you're if you're in Salem long enough, things weird things are gonna happen, you know.
6:36
SPEAKER_01: It's just it just it that's that's just what's gonna and you know, is it like that all the time?
6:42
SPEAKER_01: No, but uh, but by immersing yourself there, you'll have those moments, right?
6:48
SPEAKER_00: Um let's you know backtracked a little bit.
6:50
SPEAKER_00: So, how did you get like into the paranormal itself and how did that become about?
6:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I was I was a journalist for about 20 years before writing my first paranormal theme book, which was Ghost to Boston.
7:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, the actual the first book was uh uh uh from an article that I wrote for a local magazine, and it was Haunted Hotspots in Boston.
7:13
SPEAKER_01: Uh the publisher read the article and they said, Hey, you know, can you write a book and can you write it in like a month?
7:18
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, Okay, you know, so my first book, uh, I was giving tours uh haunted tours in Boston.
7:25
SPEAKER_01: So it was kind of like a it made a lot of sense at the time, although writing a book in a month wasn't didn't make sense.
7:32
SPEAKER_01: So I wrote that was in 2012.
7:35
SPEAKER_01: Um, and before that, uh, you know, I I identify as a medium.
7:39
SPEAKER_01: So I I have always, as a journalist, I always use my mediumship uh along the way, things would happen.
7:45
SPEAKER_01: I would just know things.
7:46
SPEAKER_01: Uh before like I, you know, I did a I did um a blog called Loaded Gun, and Loaded Gun was about made in Massachusetts films, and I somehow always knew where the the locations um where the films are going to be shot beforehand, and I used kind of use my gifts to kind of uh know things, you know.
8:06
SPEAKER_01: So it's called Claire Cognizant.
8:08
SPEAKER_01: And so I I just kind of knew things beforehand.
8:10
SPEAKER_01: And that also, when I I also, as a journalist, I was a true crime reporter for for a bit, uh, and got super emotional uh when I was working on the true crime articles because you know, people were murdered, and it it's uh it so the emotion to that was uh too much for me to handle.
8:28
SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah, I've always had the gift, but I was afraid of it and I didn't want to go public with it.
8:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh and as a journalist, I was worried about credibility as well.
8:36
SPEAKER_01: Uh, even writing my first book on the paranormal, my editor was like, Do you actually believe in this stuff?
8:42
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I actually do.
8:44
SPEAKER_01: But he was like, because I I was like writing it as like, well, and this person says, you know, they saw a full-bodied apparition walking through the bar.
8:52
SPEAKER_01: And my the editor was kind of expecting me to be a little snarky and kind of like make fun of the person.
8:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, no, I actually believe they they saw this this full-bodied apparition.
9:02
SPEAKER_01: And I've you know, I've seen stuff too.
9:04
SPEAKER_01: And so it was me, it was a gradual coming out of out of the crystal closet, if you will, um, uh when it comes to uh being open about my um my abilities and also like my being open about my belief in the paranormal.
9:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh the journalism, New England.
9:20
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure how it is in Cleveland, but New England was very much like uh very anti-ghost.
9:26
SPEAKER_01: Like they they all had experiences.
9:28
SPEAKER_01: They were like they they always would say, I don't believe in ghosts, but let me tell you, there was one time I was at a lighthouse and you know, I heard footsteps and this everybody had a story, but they still didn't they didn't go public that they believed in ghosts.
9:41
SPEAKER_01: In fact, when I first started with my book, Ghost of Boston, the the this is but kind of like like early days of like ghost hunters and ghost adventures, people were still kind of they weren't public that they believed in ghosts or that they were interested in the paranormal.
9:58
SPEAKER_01: And so I remember like people want like having my book and like wanting like a brown paper bag, like it was like ghost porn.
10:05
SPEAKER_01: Um, like they didn't want people to know they were reading my book, and I'm like, okay, but now it's it's different.
10:11
SPEAKER_01: Thanks to pop culture, thanks to television shows, some of them I've been on.
10:14
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I think that people have been a lot more open-minded to the paranormal than actually believe.
10:18
SPEAKER_01: But new New England's especially tight lips about their ghost stories.
10:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh, having lived in Florida and in the South, uh, they're very they've always been open, so it really depends on the part of the country, right?
10:31
SPEAKER_00: It depends on the people too.
10:33
SPEAKER_00: Like, people are just I don't know if they're scared to admit that they believe in ghosts.
10:36
SPEAKER_00: I get at work, I work with over a hundred people, and I get all the time they're like, Oh, you have a paranormal podcast.
10:41
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, do you believe in that stuff?
10:43
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've seen stuff.
10:45
SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't believe in that.
10:46
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's this one room in my grandmother's house like house, I won't go in there.
10:52
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, well, if you don't believe in it, then why won't you go in there?
10:55
SPEAKER_00: Well, there's something bad in there.
10:57
SPEAKER_00: Okay, well, then you believe in it.
10:58
SPEAKER_01: Like, that's just exactly same thing in New England.
11:03
SPEAKER_01: It's a yeah, and I think I also think that it is kind of like a like I'm I'm assuming Cleveland, it depends on the it's regional.
11:10
SPEAKER_01: Uh I know like having like southern roots, the south having believing in ghosts was kind of like a common thing.
11:17
SPEAKER_01: And I'm in Boston, Boston's very much like we have MIT, we have Harvard.
11:22
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so there's a lot of like really, really well-educated people here.
11:25
SPEAKER_01: And the idea, but the funny thing is, those people they actually are terrified of ghosts.
11:30
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, I I would give ghost tours in Boston, and all they were all like MIT students, you know, like super brainiacs who who are science people that really believed in ghosts.
11:41
SPEAKER_01: So it's it's interesting.
11:42
SPEAKER_01: People from all spectrums, they uh they believe in the paranormal.
11:46
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, you got Ohio, West Virginia, you know, Kentucky, the Bible Belt.
11:50
SPEAKER_00: So we deal with that a little bit, you know, where some towns don't want anything to do with anything.
11:56
SPEAKER_00: Like people have tried to open up locations and they get try to get shut down because you know the church gets involved or whoever gets involved, and you know, that's their beliefs, and you gotta, you know, accept that too.
12:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if they don't want to accept it, then that's fine.
12:11
SPEAKER_00: Again, like you said, full body apparition.
12:14
SPEAKER_00: You gotta believe the guy.
12:16
SPEAKER_00: We've all had that experience.
12:18
SPEAKER_00: It's not on camera.
12:19
SPEAKER_00: But we can never prove anybody wrong either that they saw that.
12:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've seen two full-body apparitions, and you just don't have to believe me or not believe me, but that's my experience, and I'm gonna keep that with me.
12:33
SPEAKER_01: So but as I progressed though, like so.
12:36
SPEAKER_01: When I first started, I did have experiences, and now I I'm I have um I would say skeptical, became a full-blown believer.
12:46
SPEAKER_01: I was almost like traumatized by some of the spirits that I encountered, especially in Salem, Massachusetts, uh giving tours.
12:53
SPEAKER_01: But then as I as I went on, I'm I'm becoming more skeptical.
12:57
SPEAKER_01: So now like, well, maybe that like that full-bodied apparition that I saw um could be explained.
13:04
SPEAKER_01: So I so I kind of gone like full circle, being like terrified and like you know, not open about my beliefs, and then kind of going to um full-blown believer, getting traumatized, getting scratched, all sorts of things happening.
13:18
SPEAKER_01: Um, and then kind of going to the point where now um some of it may be explainable, some of it, what what I don't think this stuff is, is the D word demons.
13:27
SPEAKER_01: I think that uh people automatically want to say, hey, that's a demon.
13:30
SPEAKER_01: I think some of it is maybe elementals, or maybe I'm really big in the idea of thought for manifestations and tulpas.
13:38
SPEAKER_01: I think, especially in Salem, like when you tell a story about the lady in blue over and over again, it can create a ghost, it can create a monster.
13:48
SPEAKER_01: And uh and I do feel I've seen that, I've seen it happen multiple times.
13:52
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, wait a minute, is this really a disembodied soul or a trapped soul as a name of your podcast, or is it something else?
13:59
SPEAKER_01: Is it just energy that has you know a re maybe like maybe I was feeding this this tulpa or this agregore, and that's what was happening?
14:09
SPEAKER_00: Oh, definitely possible.
14:10
SPEAKER_00: I mean, we've been talking about it lately on the podcast, like how we can create a ghost.
14:16
SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you give something enough attention, you know, it is possible.
14:21
SPEAKER_00: Like you said, a lady in blue.
14:22
SPEAKER_00: Uh my wife years ago did a ghost tour in downtown Willoughby.
14:27
SPEAKER_00: They talked about a lady in blue on a railroad tracks, and she's not into this whatsoever.
14:32
SPEAKER_00: She just went with a friend, came back and told me about this lady in blue.
14:35
SPEAKER_00: I'm like, there's a lady in blue on a railroad track like every other town, like that's just the way it is.
14:41
SPEAKER_01: There is so but not not just not to, you know, uh so in where you're located, Salem.
14:48
SPEAKER_01: The we tell the lady in blue story about 30 times a day.
14:53
SPEAKER_01: So that energy on tours with because people from all over the country the world come to Salem to hear ghost stories, and so they tell the story and it's turned her into actual ghosts.
15:05
SPEAKER_01: So, like we I we have photos, we've heard screams, and the weird thing to the story with the lady in blue is that she was pregnant, and this is in the 1830s.
15:16
SPEAKER_01: Uh, she was waiting for her uh her lover who was a sailor uh in this coming from the Salem Harbor, and she was waiting there to tell him that she was pregnant, and he he she told him he flipped, killed her, and buried her in the bowels of what is modern-day Rockefellers, which is a restaurant.
15:33
SPEAKER_01: She has, like I said, she's been photographed, heard through screaming.
15:38
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's a vault, there's actually a drink dedicated to her, uh, the lady in blue.
15:43
SPEAKER_01: So this has created something.
15:44
SPEAKER_01: And the the thing is, having done all the research to find if she in fact existed, like there was a woman that was murdered by a sailor, never existed.
15:54
SPEAKER_01: Um, I mean, I'm sure there was an unsolved murderer at the time, but but there was no lady in blue or no uh no no name to be attached to this woman.
16:05
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean you're saying pretty much it got created from the story then.
16:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah.
16:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean that right.
16:12
SPEAKER_01: And so, like, why do we have photos and they're like monstrous photos?
16:15
SPEAKER_01: Why do we have here screams?
16:17
SPEAKER_01: Because the story is told on tours 30 to 40 times a day.
16:21
SPEAKER_00: It makes sense, and I believe it.
16:22
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think we can create the stories and energy can form into what it wants to and create that spirit.
16:30
SPEAKER_00: I mean, who knows?
16:31
SPEAKER_00: Where it hurt, I mean, how did the name come up then if there's nothing on it?
16:36
SPEAKER_01: Because the well, the lady in blue, so that the story's been told of you know there may have been an apparition beforehand.
16:43
SPEAKER_01: I'm not sure where the genesis of the story came from.
16:46
SPEAKER_01: It's been told on tourist for like 20 years.
16:47
SPEAKER_01: Oh, I know when the restaurant first opened, there was a photo that happened.
16:52
SPEAKER_01: Um, the woman wearing a blue dress kind of appeared in a photo, and that was like 20 years ago.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: And so on the tour, they started talking, they started telling us becoming more and more elaborate.
17:02
SPEAKER_01: Made this false narrative of the woman she was pregnant, and and there's all these stories.
17:06
SPEAKER_01: And we tell them I'm on our ghost tour, but the thing is, we didn't know the backstory, uh, and it was just created uh uh through giving tours.
17:15
SPEAKER_00: Oh, I mean, that's that's a cool story and a lot of stuff that we talked about the last couple of weeks on my podcast.
17:23
SPEAKER_00: That's what we're talking about, like creating energies and you know, giving stuff attention and you not create but call energies in.
17:32
SPEAKER_00: I'm a big believer.
17:33
SPEAKER_00: If you ask enough questions, spirits will come talk to you.
17:36
SPEAKER_00: Um so going back to your medium abilities with writing books, has it ever like directed you in the right direction?
17:46
SPEAKER_00: Like you got a name or something, and you're like, I have to go look this up.
17:50
SPEAKER_00: And it became actually into your book.
17:54
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, all the time.
17:55
SPEAKER_01: I mean, if if you if you have watched my shows, uh so I will say this I keep my books separate from my TV shows and my mediumship.
18:03
SPEAKER_01: Uh, the reason why is because I want my books to be based on facts.
18:07
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so my my big thing, even when I probably the lecture I'll give is called the Besheba effect.
18:13
SPEAKER_01: And the idea, the Besheba effect is if when you bring in especially the television mediums, you bring them on television or bring them into locations, they say, Oh, over here there was a her name is Mary, and she uh she you know she murdered 30 people, and like the the medium that kind of creates the story.
18:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and there's no historical backstory to back that up.
18:36
SPEAKER_01: It can become a story, which is you know, getting back to the genesis of the lady in the blue dress.
18:41
SPEAKER_01: It's very important to me as a medium not to do that, not to create stories.
18:45
SPEAKER_01: I want the history to be validated.
18:46
SPEAKER_01: The shows that I have done, the history ultimately was validated.
18:50
SPEAKER_01: So I'll go to like the house in between two, which is a documentary that I filmed, never been there, even didn't even know where I was going, came in, read the property.
18:59
SPEAKER_01: I went on record saying, hey, there's um Alice, there's a there, I'm seeing a man being lynched on this property.
19:06
SPEAKER_01: And um, and to me, that was I I was bawling on the show because what if I got that wrong?
19:12
SPEAKER_01: Like that's a horrible thing to say on on a pot on a TV show that or documentary that's seen by thousands of people, but I got it right.
19:22
SPEAKER_01: So to me, it's really important that in my books that I actually get history correct.
19:28
SPEAKER_01: So sometimes, yes, um, I'll I'll get information that may or may not be on historical record, like the lynching at the House in Between Two.
19:38
SPEAKER_01: But I have to be able to put it in my books.
19:41
SPEAKER_01: Um, under my name, like I I would I would say, because I I interview a lot of people.
19:46
SPEAKER_01: If they tell me stuff what they're picking up, I may include it, but it's really important for me to back it up in my books.
19:52
SPEAKER_01: On the TV shows, it's different, it's like a different uh skill set and my mediumship, I try to keep separate from my books.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: All right.
20:00
SPEAKER_00: Um, so how'd you get into TV then?
20:03
SPEAKER_00: How did that come about?
20:05
SPEAKER_01: Well, so I wrote books for um, you know, for several years, gave tours.
20:10
SPEAKER_01: I started giving, you know, I was like the Salem expert because I was a tour guide in Salem.
20:14
SPEAKER_01: So they wanted to know uh the haunted locations, the ghost stories associated with Salem.
20:20
SPEAKER_01: So a lot of my early shows were um an expert when it comes to Salem.
20:24
SPEAKER_01: Uh so um The Lady in Blue, I've told that story on most terrifying places.
20:28
SPEAKER_01: Uh I've told stories about um my personal experiences in Salem.
20:33
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I was in haunted towns on many shows related to Salem.
20:37
SPEAKER_01: Then I started doing, um I did a show called A Haunting.
20:40
SPEAKER_01: And that was uh the hundredth episode, and it was probably the most watched episode uh of A Haunting.
20:46
SPEAKER_01: And then I became a producer for the TV show A Haunting.
20:50
SPEAKER_01: And uh have did you ever watch that show?
20:53
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've seen a couple episodes, a few of them.
20:55
SPEAKER_01: It's I mean it's sort of like the grandfather of haunted TV, you know, it's so it's and it's a recreation show and it's hour long.
21:02
SPEAKER_01: Um, the first ever A Haunting was uh A Haunting in Connecticut.
21:06
SPEAKER_01: So that came on uh television.
21:09
SPEAKER_01: It was a inner it was a huge hit.
21:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh Lorraine Warren was on the show.
21:13
SPEAKER_01: It was sort of like it was really big, uh, and it turned into a franchise.
21:18
SPEAKER_01: So I was on that show, and then I then I started doing a lot more television, like House in Between Two.
21:24
SPEAKER_01: Um, I did the uh Curse of Lizzie Borden, I did um, and also the part that I'm actually the proudest of is I worked with other people on season 11 of A Haunting to tell their stories.
21:35
SPEAKER_01: So um not only am I on camera, but I've also as a producer too.
21:40
SPEAKER_00: Oh, that's that's cool.
21:42
SPEAKER_00: No, it's uh it's kind of weird, like you're an author going in and you know how life takes you.
21:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean it well, it's I I mean what's interesting.
21:53
SPEAKER_01: So I I said I was a journalist for 20 years, I was also a television producer early in my career.
21:58
SPEAKER_01: So it's almost like a full circle.
22:00
SPEAKER_01: So everything that I've done has prepared me for what I'm doing now.
22:03
SPEAKER_01: And I never like, did I ever think that I I would be doing this?
22:08
SPEAKER_01: Not in a million years.
22:09
SPEAKER_01: I I thought I would be like the you know, Truman Capote, like would write these, you know, books that were, you know, I didn't did not predict that I would be a paranormal uh you know author uh with 20 books under my belt, now going on 21 coming out.
22:25
SPEAKER_01: And so I um in doing lots of television, never thought, never wanted to be on television.
22:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh having been a producer in the past, I worked on I worked for MTV and VH1 in New York City.
22:36
SPEAKER_01: And never like there were times where like, hey, can you fill in, like do like a you know like a I'm like, I don't want to be on TV, like I don't want that.
22:44
SPEAKER_01: And it happened but I but I am I am passionate about my books.
22:48
SPEAKER_01: So by doing television, it does uh it does bring people into your what you write.
22:54
SPEAKER_01: So for me, the television uh does work as a promotional way for people to read your books.
23:00
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean it's I guess kind of market both things at the same time.
23:04
SPEAKER_00: You know, you're doing television, they see your name, it's your book.
23:08
SPEAKER_00: You're passionate about your books.
23:09
SPEAKER_00: We talked about before you came on.
23:11
SPEAKER_00: That's your yeah, I guess true love is writing books.
23:14
SPEAKER_00: So it is.
23:15
SPEAKER_01: Well, it's so is it is it always fun?
23:19
SPEAKER_01: No.
23:19
SPEAKER_01: I mean, sometimes it's painful, you know.
23:21
SPEAKER_01: It's not like writing a book is is sort of like giving birth, you know.
23:24
SPEAKER_01: It's like it's like it's just like it's really a lot of energy, a lot of time, a lot of effort, but it's worth it's so worth it.
23:32
SPEAKER_01: And uh some of them are better than others, like the the Lizzie Borden, the curse of Lizzie Borden, or sorry, the Lizzie Borden, the family curse.
23:38
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I had to write that in a few months, uh, just because that and I had another book that that I was working on at the same time.
23:45
SPEAKER_01: So it was getting that done was so hard, and but I also think it was an important, it's an important book.
23:51
SPEAKER_01: So I yes, I I love it.
23:54
SPEAKER_01: Not always I don't always love it.
23:56
SPEAKER_01: It's gonna be painful.
23:58
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's life, right?
23:59
SPEAKER_00: You know, you do a lot of stuff, and it's not fun while you're doing it, but it end result is what matters, and you love it.
24:06
SPEAKER_00: So that's your newest book coming out, right?
24:08
SPEAKER_00: The Lizzie Borden.
24:10
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, so I have uh Hotted Castles of New England coming out August 4th, and then Lizzie Borden and the Family Curse.
24:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm finishing up the edits on it, and that's coming out October 13th.
24:19
SPEAKER_01: And so, yeah, so that um so I have two books coming out in in the fall, which is not I do not recommend that.
24:26
SPEAKER_01: Like it's just too much.
24:29
SPEAKER_00: Okay, so not really paranoia.
24:31
SPEAKER_00: How do you separate writing two books at the same time, like mentally?
24:35
SPEAKER_01: It's hard.
24:36
SPEAKER_01: I mean, well, so I will say this.
24:37
SPEAKER_01: So the uh Haunted Castles of New England was uh actually written a year, like a long time ago.
24:44
SPEAKER_01: So the the my publisher, there they decided they wanted to come out in spooky season, which is I mean, August is the beginning of like Halloween season.
24:54
SPEAKER_01: So um, so they held on to that book for a year.
24:56
SPEAKER_01: So I actually I already had finished the book when I started the Lizzie Borden book.
25:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh the Lizzie Borden book star I started that earlier this year.
25:04
SPEAKER_01: Um started doing the research November of uh 20 of last year, uh like right around Halloween last year, was when I first started working on the Lizzie Borden book.
25:13
SPEAKER_01: So keeping it separate in the editing process is hard because you're like focused on true crime.
25:18
SPEAKER_01: And oh, by the way, that the Lizzie Borden book is not a paranormal book, it's actually a full-blown true crime book.
25:25
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's some supernatural elements to it, but getting the facts correct, especially to a really famous case that's studied by hundreds of people was really, really important.
25:36
SPEAKER_00: That's my kind of book right there, true crime.
25:38
SPEAKER_00: So definitely gonna check that one out.
25:40
SPEAKER_00: Um so your haunted castles.
25:44
SPEAKER_00: I mean, do you go over there and research those, or is that just mainly, you know, research here?
25:49
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, the well, the cat, well, they're they're castles in New England.
25:52
SPEAKER_01: So I live in New England.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: Oh, New England.
25:54
SPEAKER_01: I thought you meant England.
25:56
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's not I mean, I do talk about some castles in England and that some of the sections, but it's more about people, yeah, that's the thing.
26:03
SPEAKER_01: Like they're castles in America.
26:04
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, yeah, like New England has these structures that were built, usually like late 1800s, early 1900s, that mimic in like European castles.
26:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh so these like usually they're wealthy, kind of like eccentric uh people that wanted something like a castle.
26:22
SPEAKER_01: And so we have these castles in New England, uh, like Hammett Castle in Gloucester, and uh, there's a lot Wilson Castle and Proctor, Vermont.
26:30
SPEAKER_01: So there are actually castles in in uh in New England.
26:35
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
26:36
SPEAKER_00: I didn't even know there was that many there, but I'll definitely have to check those out sometime.
26:41
SPEAKER_00: Um talk about like you know, the Salem witch trials and stuff.
26:45
SPEAKER_00: I know it's big, they still do the witch stuff there, new festivals.
26:49
SPEAKER_00: Is there a lot of investigations going around in Salem?
26:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh so no, I mean, so Salem is is Halloween town.
26:58
SPEAKER_01: So Salem, so for people that don't know, uh 20 innocent men and women were accused and executed for witchcraft in 1692.
27:07
SPEAKER_01: That had left has left a psychic scar on the land.
27:10
SPEAKER_01: The idea that Salem is visited by hundreds of thousands of people every October, it's called Haunted Happenings.
27:18
SPEAKER_01: Uh, to me, some people think it's that like it's sort of like going to Auschwitz.
27:23
SPEAKER_01: It's sort of like going to a location where tragedy happened.
27:26
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but what's happened is it's sort of there's this dichotomy of people celebrating like Hocus Pocus, uh, and then also honoring the 20 innocent people that were executed for witchcraft.
27:37
SPEAKER_01: So there's sort of this weird dichotomy going on.
27:40
SPEAKER_01: But yes, I mean there's festivals there.
27:42
SPEAKER_01: What I do appreciate about Ceylon is that they do um the hit the the history is really important to the locals, and it wasn't for many years.
27:51
SPEAKER_01: It was one of those things that were so it was like a they swept it under under the, they put it in the closet, they didn't want to talk about the tragedy that happened in 1692.
27:59
SPEAKER_01: And what happens is if you don't talk about it, it repeats itself.
28:03
SPEAKER_01: And so there were, I mean, there was a huge backlash after the 20 people were executed, but it did continue.
28:11
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there were other trials, like witch trials that happened after, and there's a lot of misconceptions.
28:17
SPEAKER_01: So it kind of got popular again.
28:19
SPEAKER_01: People started wanting to know about it after the crucible was written by Arthur Miller in the 50s.
28:25
SPEAKER_01: So um it's it's then it became part of part of pop culture.
28:29
SPEAKER_01: So Hocus Pocus and uh Elvira, she did a you know, a Salem witch, and a lot of the misconceptions were perpetuated by that.
28:37
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of my passion to get the facts correct when it comes to the witch trials.
28:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and the thing is that calling them witches is like they weren't witches, they were innocent people that were accused.
28:47
SPEAKER_01: A lot of and there's no real reason.
28:50
SPEAKER_01: Some of them were um, you know, just people like why like why were they accused of witchcraft?
28:55
SPEAKER_01: And it was different for each person.
28:57
SPEAKER_01: There was just a hysteria that was happening in 1692.
29:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I was gonna ask you, like, why were they tried as witches?
29:05
SPEAKER_00: I mean, was it you know, a lot of people are saying because they you know they did like off the wall like medicine and help people out.
29:12
SPEAKER_00: Was it a religious thing too?
29:14
SPEAKER_01: Like it was different, like I just said, it was different for each person.
29:18
SPEAKER_01: So uh some of them were um, so I'm related also related to Anne Putnam.
29:24
SPEAKER_01: Ann Putnam was one of the afflicted girls.
29:26
SPEAKER_01: Um, afflicted girls were they were like between like eight and 13.
29:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they started having visions of various people in the community uh tormenting them.
29:37
SPEAKER_01: Uh so they're coming in specter form as witches.
29:40
SPEAKER_01: So these these girls kind of did theatrics, like they would uh be in the trials and say, the goody, you know, goody um uh proctor is is is you know is attacking me.
29:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh and they were they would like kind of like have spasms and bark like a dog and do all sorts of weird things.
29:56
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I mean, so that the um the the they actually the people that were accused of witchcraft um were some of them were land wealthy landowners, and if you look at it, like the Putnams especially, they they wanted may have wanted their land, you know, because so they may have gone over the after the people that had the means.
30:18
SPEAKER_01: There were also people that were the town bigger bigger woman, like Sarah Good, uh, who was pregnant when she was accused.
30:25
SPEAKER_01: She was going from door to door asking for food.
30:29
SPEAKER_01: Uh, according to uh to one of the girls that witnessed her, she was mumbling under her breath and she said that she was cursing them.
30:37
SPEAKER_01: And so she was brought in and tried.
30:40
SPEAKER_01: And what's interesting about the 20 people that were executed, all of them, except for one person, said that they were innocent.
30:47
SPEAKER_01: The ones that said that they were guilty were the ones that were spared, oddly.
30:51
SPEAKER_01: They were kept in prison, and then after the 20 innocent people were killed, uh were hanged, uh, and one person, Giles, was pressed over a two-day period.
31:01
SPEAKER_01: Uh, they they they basically um they said, you know what, this is crazy, and then they they stopped the witch trials and they let the people go.
31:10
SPEAKER_01: So, yeah, I mean it was sort of like this weird hysteria that overtook the land.
31:15
SPEAKER_01: People were being accused left and right, people that were kind of like the you would suspect that they would be accused, like Sarah Good, the town beggar woman, or uh Bridget Bishop, who uh would wear like lacy garb and kind of would dress against the puritanical uh like different colors, which was a no-no in 1692.
31:36
SPEAKER_01: And so it really a lot of it was women challenging the status quo, but men were accused and executed too.
31:44
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I mean that's interesting.
31:45
SPEAKER_00: Like you said before, though, like the history is very important because history does repeat itself, and that's what's important.
31:53
SPEAKER_00: I mean, so many places that had a bad history try to cover it up.
31:58
SPEAKER_01: And that's what happened in Salem for a long time.
32:01
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because they didn't they didn't want to they didn't want to own it, and I at least they own it now, uh, and they make a profit from it.
32:10
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I mean people are grabbing money off them and they still are.
32:15
SPEAKER_00: So I mean but I mean it it's good for small businesses and everything.
32:20
SPEAKER_01: And yeah, what I I mean what I what I do love about Salem is that they've taken something, kind of reclaimed it.
32:27
SPEAKER_01: What was a place, puritanical um village that executed people for witchcraft now embraces people from all over the world, all types of people.
32:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's really it's kind of become an enclave for for witches.
32:41
SPEAKER_01: Like it's actually a lot of the the community actually do practice witchcraft, um, which I find interesting.
32:46
SPEAKER_01: You know, the place where they were executed, where the actual actual witches go.
32:50
SPEAKER_01: And I think that's because of TV shows like Bewitched and Hocus Pocus.
32:55
SPEAKER_01: I think I've kind of kind of glamorized Salem.
32:57
SPEAKER_01: And truthfully, Salem is spooky.
32:59
SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's something about the New England aesthetic, the old houses.
33:03
SPEAKER_01: There's something about um, you know, like uh October in Salem that is so magical that you know, that which is what why I love being here.
33:11
SPEAKER_01: Uh, I don't like the winters in New England, but I love fall.
33:14
SPEAKER_01: It's like my favorite all-time season is fall in New England.
33:19
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I've heard that.
33:20
SPEAKER_00: I've never been there, but I've heard like fall time is just a beautiful place.
33:24
SPEAKER_00: It's so great.
33:25
SPEAKER_01: The the change of leaves, there's the magic in the air.
33:28
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's you know, uh you asked about investigations.
33:31
SPEAKER_01: I would say that there's not really places to investigate because it's all historical.
33:36
SPEAKER_01: It's from the 1600s.
33:37
SPEAKER_01: The place uh that was investigated on television was um the witch house, which is an actual house from the 1600s that was one of the judges in the Salem Witch trials, and that was on Ghost Adventures.
33:50
SPEAKER_01: What happened when they investigated there is a chair was broken.
33:54
SPEAKER_01: So they don't open up their the old buildings to investigators because of that, because they're like, oh, well, investigators may like they may break a chair that's from the 1600s.
34:05
SPEAKER_01: So um, because of the history, um, I just feel like that it's kind of been close to investigation, but people investigate all the time.
34:14
SPEAKER_01: Like I my one of my first tours, I would give history tours, I would give ghost tours, but I also gave a paranormal investigation tour where people would have equipment and we would go to the cemeteries, which you know, by the way, cemeteries are not a I would not recommend investigating cemeteries because it's because it's uh there's a lot of you know contamination, but it you know, it show showing them how to use like like a recorder or using dousing rods.
34:39
SPEAKER_01: Um I'm a big dousing rod person, so just kind of using that as a way to we would do like mini investigations in Salem.
34:46
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
34:47
SPEAKER_00: Um well switch gear.
34:49
SPEAKER_00: So you've done a lot of TV shows, you investigate a lot.
34:52
SPEAKER_00: What is the creepiest place you'd say you've been?
34:57
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, all I have been well, I was so I went, so I travel all over the country, um, and I went to uh the one city that I think rivals Salem as the most haunted is New Orleans.
35:09
SPEAKER_01: And I'm actually going to the New Orleans Paracon uh in in a couple of weeks, and I'm really excited about that.
35:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm doing uh I'm gonna be um doing the Patty Negri experience with Patty Negri from Ghost Adventures.
35:21
SPEAKER_01: And so she so to me, New Orleans is the creepiest place.
35:24
SPEAKER_01: And I went to a place, it was called Bloody Mary's, uh, and there was a location where a recent murder during Katrina, where a man murdered his his girlfriend, uh, and the place where it happened, um, I actually went to the museum and just the energy was there just really stuck with me.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: It was horrible.
35:44
SPEAKER_01: And he the guy he not only did he murder her, but he cut her, he just cut her in pieces and put her in the uh it was horrible, it's horrible, horrible.
35:53
SPEAKER_01: So to me, that was the creepiest place.
35:54
SPEAKER_01: It was the the bloody Mary's the house where the murder took place.
36:00
SPEAKER_00: You talk about that, like it was a Katrina murder.
36:03
SPEAKER_00: Um, how come when we go investigate a lot of these places?
36:06
SPEAKER_00: We always get older spirits.
36:08
SPEAKER_00: How come like some someone who's passed like five years?
36:12
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you being a medium, you might have a different aspect from that.
36:15
SPEAKER_00: You might hear them more, but it kind of seems like a lot of our evidence are based off you know early 1900s.
36:22
SPEAKER_00: How come we don't see anything?
36:24
SPEAKER_01: Well, we do.
36:25
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like we get we get we get recent stuff.
36:27
SPEAKER_01: I will say, as an author, we have a rule, like it's respect for the family.
36:31
SPEAKER_01: Um, if do you if you talk to a family member that passed away five years ago and you put it in a book, do you feel like that that's fair to the family members that are still living?
36:42
SPEAKER_01: I mean, so there I have a 50-year rule, like if it's from 50 years before 50 years, I would get permission from the family to include it in the book, um, especially if there's a murder victim.
36:52
SPEAKER_01: So, like the family, like I mean, I'm sure that there's family members associated with the the man.
36:57
SPEAKER_01: I forget that Addy was the woman's name, but the the murder that happened in New Orleans, I'm sure there's family members that are still existing.
37:04
SPEAKER_01: And I I wouldn't want to include that in one of my books or even a TV show because I think it's just too soon.
37:09
SPEAKER_01: Uh so I do, I mean, I do pick up stuff from recent I did there, but and that happened recently.
37:16
SPEAKER_00: Um, that's just why I have people like you on the show.
37:18
SPEAKER_00: Because I never thought about that, like the recent, like the family members, how it can affect them.
37:23
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're right.
37:25
SPEAKER_00: Like you should have a role, especially when you're putting it out to public.
37:28
SPEAKER_00: Because what if you know you are wrong about something too?
37:33
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that's like that's the part as a medium.
37:36
SPEAKER_01: I you know, I I teach ethics and mediumship.
37:39
SPEAKER_01: And that to me, it's really important that you don't, especially if like there's a missing person's case and you say, Well, I know, oh, she's dead.
37:47
SPEAKER_01: And then, like, there's a Sylvia Brown um were situation where she predicted that the woman came to her on the on one of the television shows and asked her, Hey, my my you know, my daughter's missing.
37:59
SPEAKER_01: Um, and she's oh honey, she's dead.
38:01
SPEAKER_01: And the thing is, she wasn't dead.
38:03
SPEAKER_01: And so mediums get things wrong all the time.
38:06
SPEAKER_01: And I and I, you know, does it make her fake?
38:08
SPEAKER_01: No, she probably there may have been a reason why she went.
38:11
SPEAKER_01: I just I want to be to go public, I want it to be correct.
38:14
SPEAKER_01: You know, I don't want it to be something there.
38:18
SPEAKER_01: As a medium, you get mixed messes, it's not always clear, it's like a cryptic thing that you get.
38:23
SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I that's why I was so emotional when I was on the house in between two, because if I got that wrong, that was big.
38:31
SPEAKER_01: And I would have, you know, that it's just to me like a lynching on a property.
38:36
SPEAKER_01: Um, and it turns out there was actually that was a plantation that uh so my what I picked up actually validated something that wasn't on the history books, and they were able to validate that later.
38:48
SPEAKER_00: So, I mean, you actually said it on the show.
38:51
SPEAKER_00: I mean, and you like you always say you want proof.
38:54
SPEAKER_00: I mean, you can always edit that out if you had to, but you know, why did you decide that to say that?
39:01
SPEAKER_00: Was it that strong of a feeling?
39:03
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was I mean, a hundred percent of what I was picking up because they're like they were like, What are you what are you getting?
39:09
SPEAKER_01: Another thing too, so the house in between two, especially.
39:12
SPEAKER_01: So people, it's in Mississippi, um, didn't even know where I was going.
39:16
SPEAKER_01: Um, I was because I I started you know doing uh it's called psychic sweeps.
39:22
SPEAKER_01: You kind of brought into a location, you read it.
39:25
SPEAKER_01: What I usually do when I go on a psychic sweep, I'm a really big believer in douses rods.
39:29
SPEAKER_01: And so when they were filming the documentary, which Steve from Ghost Hunters, um wonderful, wonderful man, uh, he was the executive producer.
39:36
SPEAKER_01: He's like, Sam, by the way, you can't use your douses rods on camera.
39:40
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, what?
39:41
SPEAKER_01: Are you kidding?
39:42
SPEAKER_01: And also, too, they were really big about uh keeping there.
39:45
SPEAKER_01: Were two mediums, so there was one that was uh that did the first documentary, and then I was brought on almost to validate and also to pick up different things.
39:55
SPEAKER_01: So I was put into like an igloo and the back to keep separate.
39:58
SPEAKER_01: So they were really big about ethics and not me not knowing where I was going.
40:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh so anyway, I was put on the property without dousing rods.
40:06
SPEAKER_01: I clearly got a vision.
40:08
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, they're like, you know, what are you getting?
40:09
SPEAKER_01: And I'm like, I'm getting that there was a lynching.
40:12
SPEAKER_01: And I started, I actually got emotional when it was later on validated.
40:17
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I and I'm like, because I didn't want to say it.
40:20
SPEAKER_01: I I was terrified of saying it because I was on camera.
40:22
SPEAKER_01: And you're right, they could edit it out if it wasn't correct.
40:25
SPEAKER_01: But the fact that I did, I you never know what television they may turn it into something, which has happened before too.
40:32
SPEAKER_01: Having done uh multiple television shows, um, it was really important for me to whatever I said to really believe in what I was saying.
40:41
SPEAKER_00: Besides a haunting, what else, what other shows have you been on that kind of stuck out with you?
40:47
SPEAKER_01: Well, I mean, I was like to me, the the the big ones are uh I mean, I there's like 20 shows, but it uh but I think it was like the um a haunting, which because I was a producer on the show, that was a that's a big one.
40:59
SPEAKER_01: Uh Lizzie Borden the family curse.
41:00
SPEAKER_01: I'm sorry, that's the book.
41:02
SPEAKER_01: Uh um uh Curse of Lizzie Borden, and that was with Jay Schrader and Chris Fleming.
41:06
SPEAKER_01: That was shot during COVID, and that was uh that was a documentary.
41:11
SPEAKER_01: So that was like a uh it was called a shock doc on the travel channel, and that was done over um like a week-long investigation at the house, and that to me was the one that I'm known for uh because that that was a full-blown investigation.
41:26
SPEAKER_01: It was the most terrifying investigation of my life.
41:28
SPEAKER_01: It was literally, if you watch it, there was a seance at the ends, Dave Schrader was taken over.
41:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh, it was just it, it was uh it was the most terrifying experience.
41:39
SPEAKER_01: And it was shot in the winter uh during COVID.
41:42
SPEAKER_01: It was just not a just very scary time.
41:46
SPEAKER_01: But we what we accomplished in that, it won a gold telly, which is the highest award you can win in television.
41:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh well, sorry, that's gonna get that back.
41:54
SPEAKER_01: Uh in the telly awards, the gold telly is the highest you can win.
41:57
SPEAKER_01: Uh, so that that was a it was a wonderful program.
42:01
SPEAKER_01: I'm really proud of the finished product.
42:04
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
42:05
SPEAKER_00: Um sorry, I was trying to look up to some of your shows.
42:08
SPEAKER_00: Did you investigate with Jack Osborne?
42:10
SPEAKER_01: I was on a show called Fright Club uh one and two.
42:13
SPEAKER_01: So I was brought in as an as an expert, so I did investigate with Jack Osborne.
42:17
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I also did so a lot of the shows that I did that like I were um expert people that were brought on for Salem history uh or Salem Ghost Lore.
42:26
SPEAKER_01: So by and you know how I started getting a television was because of that, because I because when you write a book, you specialize in the location, so they'll ask you questions about the history and and the facts.
42:37
SPEAKER_01: So I was on Fright Club as an expert, but actually an expert on shadow people.
42:42
SPEAKER_01: So I would talk to Jack Osborne and the Ghost Brothers, uh, and they would so yeah, it was with Jack Osbourne and the Ghost Brothers Brothers, and it was called Fright Club.
42:51
SPEAKER_00: That's like two of my favorite investigators.
42:55
SPEAKER_00: I really like Jack Osbourne.
42:57
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I would I really I really liked working with them.
43:00
SPEAKER_01: Like it was probably the most fun, um, you know, like it was not very easy.
43:05
SPEAKER_01: Gig.
43:06
SPEAKER_01: It was like you're brought on.
43:07
SPEAKER_01: You're I was brought on to help consult other people, uh, because they they have these clips of of seeing uh shadow people, and I would say, well, this is what I think it is.
43:17
SPEAKER_01: So it's kind of like almost like caught on camera.
43:19
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but then Jack, uh Jack Osborne and the Ghost Brothers would look at the various clips and choose the most terrifying one.
43:27
SPEAKER_01: Um, and that and so it was kind of like a battle of like the scariest clip.
43:31
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but yeah, it was it was a consulting job, and it it was I loved it.
43:35
SPEAKER_01: I loved working with them.
43:36
SPEAKER_00: Uh so shadow people, what are they?
43:40
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, it really so kind of getting back to the thought form agregores.
43:44
SPEAKER_01: Um, I'm a big I think that there's different it really depends.
43:47
SPEAKER_01: It's so it's not every shadow person is the same entity.
43:51
SPEAKER_01: Um, I do think that some cases that they are interdimensional.
43:55
SPEAKER_01: Um, and I do think that some of the times they're it's just trapped energy.
43:58
SPEAKER_01: Uh I do think.
44:00
SPEAKER_01: Like so people are like, are they negative?
44:02
SPEAKER_01: I don't think they're always negative.
44:03
SPEAKER_01: I think they they could be good or neither.
44:05
SPEAKER_01: We're not sure.
44:06
SPEAKER_01: It depends on the on the energy, but I do think it's like a kind of taking a not enough energy for if it is a trapped soul to take a the form of a shadow person.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, there's another theory that the um that it's actually a disembodied soul that's sort of like in front of the light.
44:22
SPEAKER_01: So it is they just kind of take that form because they don't have enough energy to manifest as a full-bodied apparition.
44:27
SPEAKER_01: I'm not in that school, I'm kind of more in the interdimensional, um, not always human, like maybe like um, you know, maybe tulpa stop form manifestations.
44:37
SPEAKER_01: Um, so yeah, it just really depends.
44:39
SPEAKER_01: Uh, other people are like they're aliens, and that could be the case too.
44:43
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's that's come up the last couple of weeks that you know all the spirits we see are aliens, but not really spirits.
44:51
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, uh, I don't know if I can throw that out there, but I'm like I don't I mean I don't think so based on I hope not because I'm terrified of aliens.
45:00
SPEAKER_01: So I like let's just put it that way.
45:04
SPEAKER_00: No, I mean you mentioned interdimension, you're all you know, and like everybody else, your machine thought process goes everywhere.
45:12
SPEAKER_00: You know, are you know spirits interdimensional?
45:15
SPEAKER_00: Are they trapped?
45:17
SPEAKER_00: Um, are they stuck here?
45:19
SPEAKER_00: They can't move on.
45:21
SPEAKER_00: You know, those are all questions that everybody has.
45:24
SPEAKER_01: I really think that it's case by case, and I I think if the anything from this is not all shadow people are bad, not all souls are trapped souls.
45:34
SPEAKER_01: Uh like I think that like it really depends case by case, which is gives me it work a lot of work to do because I can go and look at the situation.
45:42
SPEAKER_01: Um, yeah, I mean there are things that that are almost like archetypes that kind of repeat over and over again, uh like the lady in blue.
45:49
SPEAKER_01: But that is that actually a spirit that I think they just use the the blue color or the lady in white because she's wearing a white dress, you know, like or like so I I I think people uh I just think case by case, um, I think sometimes they are trapped souls uh and they are stuck here.
46:07
SPEAKER_01: And you know, I've crossed over spirits before too as a medium.
46:10
SPEAKER_01: And that I did that at Cursolysy Board, and that was a very beautiful experience, especially with kids that are trapped.
46:16
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like to me, if I come across a child spirit that doesn't know how know how to cross over, which you do see as a medium sometimes, and sometimes they're being held back by darker energies because they're being almost like the darker energies are feeding off the the children's spirits.
46:32
SPEAKER_01: Like I'm gonna cross those kids over.
46:34
SPEAKER_01: I am.
46:35
SPEAKER_01: I'm I'm gonna do whatever I can to protect those kids.
46:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean that got brought up to have Facebook, you know, crossing people over.
46:42
SPEAKER_00: Um, then my question is why haven't they crossed on their own?
46:46
SPEAKER_00: But like you said, children, a darker entity probably holding them back makes sense.
46:50
SPEAKER_01: Or they don't know how to, yeah.
46:52
SPEAKER_01: Like I mean, I mean, I I think that's that's a situation.
46:55
SPEAKER_01: There's also you'll see adult spirits that are trapped, and again, not very common.
47:01
SPEAKER_01: I don't think that we have like a lot of trapped souls, but they see they they were uh intoxicated, they died, and they you'll see sometimes they're called left behinds, they didn't really know that they they actually died, and so I've seen that a uh not a lot, but I've seen it, uh, where the spirits they they were you know uh in a car accident and it was so quick that they didn't even know what happened, and they were able to figure out uh you know, as a spirit what happened, and then they're able to cross.
47:29
SPEAKER_01: So I guess it just really depends.
47:31
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I was you know, picture a kid, maybe they're just you know scared to cross over because they don't know.
47:38
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and that I've seen that before.
47:41
SPEAKER_01: I've seen I you know I've I've seen children spirits like like, but it's not a child, it's something else pretending to be a child.
47:50
SPEAKER_01: Like I've seen that too.
47:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh and I've seen you know, I I'm definitely not a big believer, like everyone's like that's a demon, that's a demon.
47:57
SPEAKER_01: I'm very much like I don't think things are miscategorized.
48:01
SPEAKER_01: So that's another passion for me, too.
48:03
SPEAKER_01: Like, not everything's a demon, but having been raised Catholic, I was taught that every that it is, you know.
48:09
SPEAKER_01: So it really depends on um the the your your belief system.
48:14
SPEAKER_01: Uh and I I have gotten a lot more when I came in, I was scared a lot and uh and I was getting scratched.
48:21
SPEAKER_01: And once I started going into a paranormal investigation without that extreme emotion, I started, I I would, I wasn't affected as much.
48:30
SPEAKER_01: Uh I wasn't getting scratched, I wasn't getting pushed.
48:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and I'm like, oh, so this is the approach.
48:35
SPEAKER_01: So I was I was feeding this this thing, whatever it is, are these things.
48:40
SPEAKER_01: And so like I and I wrote a book called Fueled by Fear.
48:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, my fear was feeding these these negative entities.
48:47
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and that's a huge topic too.
48:49
SPEAKER_00: And now people's energy going into these places too.
48:52
SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm a big believer in positive energy.
48:55
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's my belief, you know, me too.
48:58
SPEAKER_00: Protection and you know, religion-wise, too.
49:02
SPEAKER_00: But I believe you have to have positive energy.
49:03
SPEAKER_00: If you go there with negative energy, you can get nothing, or it can turn really bad for you.
49:08
SPEAKER_00: I mean, it depends what the spirit wants.
49:10
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so negative is sort of subjective for me.
49:14
SPEAKER_01: Like, I I'm passionate about the history, so like I'm going in like I'm super excited, like, yo, this is awesome.
49:20
SPEAKER_01: But the fear, I mean, it depends on is fear negative?
49:24
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
49:24
SPEAKER_01: I mean, like, look fear actually it's protects you too, you know.
49:27
SPEAKER_01: So it's not always bad, but negative as in like if you automatically think, if you provoke the spirits, or um, if you go in with negative intentions to make money from their stories, or you know, I I go in with a pure heart.
49:41
SPEAKER_01: I always say a ghost is history demanding to be remembered.
49:44
SPEAKER_01: So my goal really is to uh tell the history, and the ghosts, the ghosts are um part of that, but the ghosts are kind of telling their story.
49:54
SPEAKER_01: So I'm using that uh, especially in my books, the ghost lore to lure people into my books and gives my my book structure.
50:01
SPEAKER_01: So the paranormal aspect of it is kind of almost secondary to what my true passion is, which is history.
50:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay, that makes sense.
50:10
SPEAKER_00: Um, or 50 minutes on this, we'll wrap it up here shortly because you gotta fly out tomorrow, I believe, right?
50:16
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, yeah, I'm flying.
50:17
SPEAKER_01: So I'm flying, I'm actually taking a vacation, but I'm doing research.
50:21
SPEAKER_01: So the book that I finished uh was Lizzie Board and the Family Curse.
50:25
SPEAKER_01: There's a lineage that I mentioned at the very beginning of this podcast that is shocking.
50:29
SPEAKER_01: So there's other people.
50:31
SPEAKER_01: So I'm doing a follow-up to that book.
50:32
SPEAKER_01: Uh and the Eileen Warnos, who was a serial killer in Florida, uh, she actually, you know, she lived in Florida and was executed in Florida.
50:40
SPEAKER_01: So I'm actually going to Florida tomorrow.
50:42
SPEAKER_00: Okay.
50:43
SPEAKER_00: Um, you talked about kids real quick, and this is just my theory.
50:47
SPEAKER_00: Um, a lot of people say, you know, kids are all demons, you know.
50:52
SPEAKER_00: You know, they're just demons portraying themselves as kids.
50:55
SPEAKER_00: So you put your guard down, blah blah blah.
50:57
SPEAKER_00: I I mean, I really think that you know, as a human being, as a dad, that they're just convincing themselves of that because they do not want a kid to be trapped here.
51:09
SPEAKER_00: That's more sad.
51:10
SPEAKER_00: I think that's where we kind of go with it, too.
51:14
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, if you if you watched Curse of Lizzie Borden um and at the very end, so the Eliza Borden, who I channeled on the show, on the documentary, um, she was worried about her children.
51:26
SPEAKER_01: She's the one that in postpartum depression, uh, she murdered her two children and threw them down a well at the house next door to the murder house.
51:35
SPEAKER_01: And so I um the children were so important to her, uh, and they were still sticking around because of her.
51:43
SPEAKER_01: Um, and the thing is they like if you talked about the murders, like they would get upset.
51:47
SPEAKER_01: It was like super, I believe wholeheartedly that they were actually children and not um and not they were sticking around for their mother.
51:56
SPEAKER_01: The mother had unfinished business.
51:58
SPEAKER_01: So um, I actually, for a period after filming that show, I ghost babysat Holder, who was one of the ghost children.
52:06
SPEAKER_01: For whatever reason, he followed, he followed me.
52:08
SPEAKER_01: And people were like, like, I would be giving lectures, and they were like, There's a little boy like right behind you, kind of peeking around.
52:16
SPEAKER_01: I'm like, Oh, that's just Holder, that's my distant cousin, you know.
52:19
SPEAKER_01: And so, uh, so yeah, I and then then then I actually brought him back.
52:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so, but we when we did Curse Elizabeth Borden, we actually crossed over, uh, and it was a very beautiful, beautiful, and like I get emotional talking about it because Eliza uh was holding up and uh she was holding up her baby, and that was one of the uh the children that was that we killed the infant, uh, and she was holding the baby up, almost like she sacrificed her going to the light because she still has guilt associated with the murders, and the baby uh and we heard the baby crying and everything.
52:51
SPEAKER_01: Uh so it was a very beautiful um gesture on her part, and I I feel like that um in some cases the children are staying back for the parents or they're staying back for other reasons too.
53:05
SPEAKER_01: But in that case, I do think their children are still there.
53:08
SPEAKER_00: Okay, I mean, so do I.
53:09
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I believe it could be like that, he said.
53:11
SPEAKER_00: I mean, Trans Allegheny has that girl that's there looking for it.
53:17
SPEAKER_00: Sorry, looking for her mom.
53:21
SPEAKER_00: Just lost my voice.
53:23
SPEAKER_00: So, anyways, looking for her mom.
53:26
SPEAKER_00: But I mean, yeah, I believe, you know, there are children's spirits out there, not all are demons, and like you said, the demon word it gets thrown around way too much.
53:36
SPEAKER_00: I mean, I'm sure you probably have county contact more than anybody that's been out there that's just doing like the pay to play places.
53:46
SPEAKER_00: I don't believe demons are in those places.
53:48
SPEAKER_00: I mean, that's just me.
53:50
SPEAKER_00: But again, I go with a positive attitude and they stay away from me.
53:54
SPEAKER_01: So yeah, and that's a that's a wonderful approach.
53:58
SPEAKER_01: Like if you ever go in a situation where you're terrified, um, I've been in US creepy places.
54:04
SPEAKER_01: Um, it was hard to do it at the Bloody Mary's because we were just going in.
54:08
SPEAKER_01: Actually, I wasn't going there for the the the crime scene, I was going there for the museum that was there, but the crime scene was right above it.
54:15
SPEAKER_01: Um, some situations you kind of get you get pulled into it and you don't realize, oh, wait a minute, this is a horrific crime scene.
54:22
SPEAKER_01: Or it's a very haunted location.
54:24
SPEAKER_01: A location that also creeped me out was the Hensdale House in New York.
54:27
SPEAKER_01: I did not want to go there for so many years.
54:29
SPEAKER_01: I did go there.
54:30
SPEAKER_01: And the the way that if I'm investigating a location, my I try to laugh.
54:35
SPEAKER_01: Like I to me, laughter, um, playing a board game with your friends, you know, instead of going in and investigating, like, how you know, like, like why like why were you murdered?
54:45
SPEAKER_01: Which never asked that question.
54:46
SPEAKER_01: Like, don't re-traumatize the spirits.
54:49
SPEAKER_01: Um, but going in and just like having fun and laughing, to me, you get more responses from that than you do from asking people, provoking them, you know, getting like fake possessed on television, you know, like it's I I feel like the the provocation doesn't work.
55:08
SPEAKER_01: And uh I have a kinder, gentler approach to investigating, and that does work.
55:14
SPEAKER_01: So, yes, I'm all about having fun and and but not but respecting the spirits too.
55:20
SPEAKER_01: Like if it was something where like you go in and you're like you don't want to make them feel uncomfortable, you just want to kind of like enjoy life and they will they will respond.
55:30
SPEAKER_01: You'll get the best CVPs from just laughing at a dinner table, you know, and and at a haunted location.
55:38
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean, I see the paranormal field actually moving toward that direction where people are just more having fun and realizing these spirits were human one time and like to have a good time too, and they're getting a lot more interactions.
55:51
SPEAKER_00: And I think we're moving toward that more, which I'm happy about instead of the you know, five years ago where people are going in and provoking.
55:59
SPEAKER_00: So, yeah.
56:00
SPEAKER_01: I mean, having so when I did Lizzie Borden um, that TV show, it was for the travel channel.
56:07
SPEAKER_01: So all the shows at the time were really scary and kind of like horror genre.
56:10
SPEAKER_01: And I think that if I can turn back time, I would like to do that show again, but do it in a different approach where it wasn't it wasn't scary, you know, like it was sort of like maybe go in and just like, hey, you're my family, like you know, it's sort of approach it in a different way and see what happens.
56:27
SPEAKER_00: Well, that'd be definitely interesting.
56:29
SPEAKER_00: It's interesting if you did that like this year or next year, you know, go back and different type of investigation, have fun, you know, and see what the type of responses you get compared to when you were there first.
56:43
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, like I I learned a lot from that show because it was very um, like like Dave was taken over during the seance and um his hand started shaking.
56:53
SPEAKER_01: I think it was a it was a very scary experience.
56:56
SPEAKER_01: And so taking something that terrified me and almost traumatized me, um, is taking that and like kind of having fun with it.
57:05
SPEAKER_01: Uh, because these are my these are my family members, you know, like I'm related to them.
57:09
SPEAKER_01: And like going in with that concept, like make like, hey, let's have dinner together, Lizzie, you know, as opposed to you know, like doing a seance.
57:17
SPEAKER_01: And so I I yes, I would love to try that.
57:21
SPEAKER_00: Good show.
57:21
SPEAKER_00: I appreciate you coming on.
57:22
SPEAKER_00: I know you're a busy man.
57:24
SPEAKER_00: Um, I know last week you were trying to finish that book up.
57:26
SPEAKER_00: He you messaged me.
57:28
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I'm like, hey, no problem, life happens.
57:30
SPEAKER_00: I understand that.
57:31
SPEAKER_00: Glad you can get on this week.
57:33
SPEAKER_00: Um, heading down to Florida, then you got New Orleans, Cleveland, everything else in between.
57:39
SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and I'm I'm also doing so.
57:41
SPEAKER_01: I I produce Mass Paracon.
57:43
SPEAKER_01: So I'm actually like I'm putting on a very big pair.
57:46
SPEAKER_01: It's been this is my seventh year of doing it, and it's gonna be in Taunt, and it's gonna focus on Lizzie Warden.
57:51
SPEAKER_01: So it's in the Bridgewater Triangle, uh, and it goes in different locations in Massachusetts, but uh Taunt Fall River for uh for 20, that's October 2nd through the 4th.
58:00
SPEAKER_01: Uh, go to massparacon.com to get tickets.
58:03
SPEAKER_01: So that's in October.
58:05
SPEAKER_01: It's a lot of fun.
58:06
SPEAKER_01: And the it the locate, like we have so we're actually doing speaking of positive hauntings, we're doing the church, Lizzie Borden's church, as opposed to doing the murder house, which we are gonna do as well, but uh we're gonna do the spot where she, you know, which was a very positive spot for her.
58:23
SPEAKER_01: Uh and and I would love to I my goal really, because she's my distant cousin, to exonerate her.
58:30
SPEAKER_01: And I know that's really hard to do, but I I've always wanted that.
58:34
SPEAKER_01: I felt because a lot of people think she was innocent.
58:36
SPEAKER_01: But the the public opinion uh based on the facts was that she was in fact the murderer.
58:42
SPEAKER_01: Uh, but she did get acquitted, and uh, and so I I I would love to hopefully give her some post-mortem peace.
58:49
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that'd be great.
58:51
SPEAKER_00: So you have that new books coming out.
58:55
SPEAKER_00: You can find all of his books on Amazon.
58:56
SPEAKER_00: That's where I found them.
58:58
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, um, you got a website also.
59:01
SPEAKER_00: Yeah, cmaltrouses.com.com, check it out, list everything he does and did, and will do in the future.
59:10
SPEAKER_00: So again, I appreciate you coming on.
59:12
SPEAKER_00: Can't wait to meet you in September in Cleveland.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: I'm excited.
59:15
SPEAKER_01: I hope I hope that we're investigating too.
59:17
SPEAKER_01: Like, I I think that we are, but I'm looking forward to an investigation, especially like the arcade, like that look like based on photos.
59:25
SPEAKER_01: It look, I it I'm so I can't wait to go.
59:28
SPEAKER_01: I'm very excited.
59:29
SPEAKER_00: All right.
59:30
SPEAKER_00: Well, again, thank you and safe travels and enjoy Florida.
59:33
SPEAKER_01: Thank you so much.