Latest / Beyond The Trailhead / ULAS Founder/CEO Scott Hannan| Beyond the Trailhead Podcast Ep. 52
Transcript
- speaker-0: Alright everyone, welcome back to Beyond the Trailhead. This week is and a great week. One, it's because it's our 52nd episode, so it would be one year's worth of episodes. I actually missed one week last week because kind of took it off instead of doing like a celebration episode for being here for a year. I thought we'd take the kids out on vacation for a fall break, but coming back at it hard with someone who is an awesome guest. his name is Scott Hannon. with the ultralight mindset sandals. He makes some incredible ultralight sandals, but I'm gonna let him kind of dive into it a little bit more. Scott, how are you doing and thanks for for being on the pod. speaker-1: Doing great, man. Appreciate it. I've listened to a ton of episodes, so I'm kinda stoked to be here. speaker-0: Perfect. Well we chat a little bit beforehand and you're out in North Carolina. you make some really cool ultralight sandals. I've tried a few before. and you sent me a pair just as like a hey, you're listening, and a thank you. So I was man, I appreciate it. And as I was trying them on and stuff like that, they gotta have this guy on to find out how you came up with this whole idea. so I guess we'll again we always say without further ado, just let's just roll right into you. Just let me know a little bit about your background. And about your sandals and all that good stuff. Sure. speaker-1: born in Tennessee, spent a ton of time in the mountains as a kid, mostly car camping though with my family. a lot of time in the smokies. And always been like a huge outdoorsy kind of person. I just I don't do well at a desk. I don't like being inside. You know, I just really, really like to play outside. And then I guess tail end of high school, moved to the coast. And Wrightsville Beach, North Carolina, started surfing, met my wife, really got into more of the coastal life, fishing, surfing, all of that. And then later on down the road, ended up finding backpacking, which I had never really done. You know, lots of car camping, lots of time hiking, but backpacking just grabbed a hold of me and really went down the rabbit hole, made Tons of mistakes. Got hypothermia on my first trip. You know, it was super brutal. Yeah, yeah. It was it was it was awful and amazing at the same time. But on that first trip, I was like, I I love this and I really want to I want to figure this out, you know? And that's really when I started like tinkering with gear and like lightening my pack and you know, kind of got into the ultralight rabbit hole, which eventually led into The sandals. Yeah. Yeah. speaker-0: That's cool. Yeah. Well, I I I tried them on and they were they're interesting because I'm I'm not a like I I always just wear one pair of shoes and I've tried a few times to have like a camp shoe and stuff like that. and I can't wait for my next trip to be able to actually use them outside. I just wear them around my office and then outside I like like right here where I'm filming, there's a door and then it goes right up to the trash can. So I'm like, I'm gonna wear them. to just like throw them on real quick to take the trash out too, just to kind of wear them in and stuff like that. but you know, going into getting that whole dialing in your pack and stuff like that, what was the like the aha moment that you were like, I'm gonna make a sandal? speaker-1: Honestly, I was in the same boat you were. Like I never felt like it was it was worth it for me to carry camp shoes. So for years I did the whole, you know, like trash bag bread or not trash bag, but like grocery bag, bread bag thing where, you know, I'd get to camp and, you know, maybe I had some water crossings, my shoes would be super wet. And so I just kinda unlaced them, put on some dry socks, slide my foot into a bread bag and then put it in my shoe and I'd go about my camp chores or whatever before bed. But that's not really great because a bread bag doesn't breathe. And to be honest, you end up if if you're moving at all, you're just gonna end up getting a sweaty stock. So down the road, I was thinking, you know, it would be so nice to be able to get my feet out of my shoes as soon as I get to camp and be able to walk around, let my feet breathe, but do what I need to do and not feel like I'm tiptoeing around doing it. And at the same time Something that's not super heavy. So anyway, I started tinkering around and my first pair of sandals that I made were made out of a a cut out piece of sleeping pad and like an old ridge rest. And they were actually hold hold on one second, I've got them. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Let's see. Here we go. That terrible looking thing right there was my first test subject. And you can see where I put the duct tape on there because it immediately just compressed the heel. You know, you most of your compression with any shoe is under the ball, your foot, and your heel, right? Yeah. And so they didn't last very long at all. And so I I knew that it could work if I could just find the right materials. But the problem is it's that fine balance of like. being super lightweight but also being durable so that it lasts and then also being durable enough to actually protect your feet. Because there are other camps shoes and sandals out there that are similar weight or maybe even a little bit lighter, but they just don't really function well. I mean if if you're literally just gonna put them on and say pop out of your tent for two seconds and use the bathroom or walk ten feet Away from your tent, sure, that might work. But let's say at the end of the day you wanna, you know, you're you're out of your shoes, you're in your campshoes, but there's a water source that's actually maybe a tenth of a mile away and has a little bit of a precarious climb down and some roots and whatever, you need something that's actually going to stay on your feet, right? So that's really where I ended up like trying to figure out this sandal that would actually stay on. And I are you familiar with bedrocks? speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Okay, so I love bedrocks. My wife and I have been wearing them for years and we love them and they stay on your feet really, really well. And the way that they hold your foot, I kinda took kind of took inspiration from that a little bit. And that's how I figured out the the cord loop system. But I had to do it in a way that was super ultra light. Yeah. And then the funny part is the footbed. The footbed, I I just kept trying all these different foams that were that were in my scope of everything I was doing. But the problem is none of that works because it's not the right EVA, it's not the right blend. And so everything that I tried just was not durable enough, or it was too heavy. Like right out of the gate, I was like, I'm not gonna carry this. Like it's just not it's not gonna work. So oddly enough, I was in a a beach shop getting a breakfast sandwich and I saw a display for rainbow flip flops and they've they had all the parts broken apart. So you could see how they made their original sandal. And I was looking at that and I was like that bottom layer, that little just the outsole, that's all I need. Like how do I get that? And I was like, this is gonna be easy. I'll just, you know, I'll just real quick, I'll just shoot them an email, find out what it is, no problem. No. No, no, no. They were like, nah, sorry, that's proprietary. We're not, you know, whatever. They were no help whatsoever. And then I just literally for two years went down this rabbit hole of trying to find where I could get this material. And then I was in Walmart and I saw like a five dollar pair of flip-flops. And I was like, you know what? I'm just gonna cut the bottom of these things off. And so I I literally took my one of my fishing knives and I hacked the bottom layer of the slip flop off and then I put it on a bench grinder and I skimmed off the rest of the foam that was still attached and put my lacing system on there. And that was the first pair that I wore for probably at least three or four months, like on the regular. I was taking them in into the woods and on trails to test them out and they and it worked. And they were light. And I and I was like, okay, this is it, but how do I like how do I do this? You know? So I kept digging around and eventually I was able to find someone who could supply me with the with the right material. And so yeah, I started started making them like I started tinkering with them in twenty one. And then about two years ago, is when I figured it out, right before the summer of Two thousand twenty four. So then I started making them for some people that I know that do a lot of long distance trails. I started sending them out to folks, like, hey, take these, beat the hell out of them, tell me what you think. You know, I need feedback on these. And then I took them on my own trips. I took them over and did the tour to Mont Blanc, had them on that, speaker-0: nice. speaker-1: took them to El Salvador on some surf trips. Like everywhere I went, I would just take these things and, you know, try out. And they work great. And so then at that point I was like, okay, well, I probably should pursue this. I've been a business center for years. And I it's funny, I I I wanted to launch this business, but at the same time, the way that my life is, I have a lot of free time and flexibility and I can surf and do what I want to do. And so I was like No, if I launch this shop, it's just me. Like I'm making these sandals. So it's gonna occupy you know a good a good percentage of my time. So I actually waited for a good bit. And then my wife and a couple of my friends who are in also in cottage industries that make backpacking gear, you know, they're like, dude, just just do this. Like just do it. And largely because I do believe in the sandals, like I think I think they function really well for what they are and what they're intended to do. so I went ahead and I think I launched the shop like mm right spring maybe right before the summer. Okay. Yeah. And when I say launch, I have barely advertised. really have not put a whole lot of of advertising at all out there. I did one terrible Instagram ad. It was really bad and I and I put it out and as soon as I did I was like, my god, I gotta take this down because I was getting too many orders for me personally to make. You know, yeah, and I definitely don't wanna get in a point where I you know, I have people ordering and I can't fulfill when I say never want to get to that. So speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: yeah, so it's it's been an interesting ride, but I've gotten so much good feedback on the sandals and I love it. And I've had people locally, I I never expected the surf community to embrace these sandals. I in my mind it was all gonna be like ultralight hikers, backpackers, and people love to wear to the beach. and just a lot of people have told me they just love the like the the barefoot feel of them 'cause they're about as about as close as you can get to being barefoot without, you know, not having any protection underfoot. So speaker-0: Yeah. No, I think like you were saying, like you it's it's one of those things when you make a product and you're you're thinking, it's gonna be for one thing and it ends up working out for a whole bunch of other industries. And what you were saying earlier, how you know, you it you could just use it as a camshue. Like I've seen ones that are made of like corrugated plastic and and everything else, but they like fold over when you're trying to like cross the water and stuff. When I was just on a trip with a buddy of mine back about six months ago and we had a creek crossing and I was like, hey, we gotta go across this river. And I hurt my foot really bad on the bottom just from a rock. You know, I didn't cut it or anything, but it hurt. And I'm like, man, if I had had something on the bottom of my feet, then I wouldn't have had that pain the rest of the time. And I'm like, it it's so such a durable shoe too. Or I guess would you call it a shoe? It's it's in the shoe category. So I guess it's it's a sandal. But like it's the most durable sandal that I've seen, so speaker-1: I mean let's let's this is you know you can see how speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: thin that is. But at the same time and and this a pair obviously has been worn quite a bit. You can see how it's no longer flat. It they end up taking the shape of your foot. Which is which is even better because you were talking about for a water crossing, how the material had folded under your foot when you were wearing the the other pair, right? Yeah. But when these start to cup like this. And they take the shape of your foot, they're less likely to to bend under, you know what I mean? But I do recommend, I still recommend if you're if you're crossing anything that has swift water, I think you're always better off to cross in your trail runners. I I don't recommend that you go with a sandal just because at that point you're already risking maybe potentially getting your gear wet. And I think it's better to just go through and then at the end of the night you get your get your shoes off, get into the trail, you know, into these sandals, let your stuff dry out, let your feet air out. But I think just to be cautious in swift water, it's always better to to cross in your trail runners. These I mean these if you were to turn them just right in swift water, they could still pull under a little bit, you know. speaker-0: Yeah. But I think they're attached really, really well, like in the front where it's like the thong style as opposed to I think the ones I tried before just went over the front of my foot. Yeah. And so they were literally just flopping down. So I was like, okay. but no, I I never carry I never carried campshoes because like I would see people, you know, with crocs sitting on the back of their bag flopping around and everything else. And whether you're an ultralight person or just an I'm a normal person who's car camping or whatever, just having something that's light, easy to just stow, that's another great thing about is you could just literally throw it in the back of your bag and they're just sitting right there. They don't take up literally any space at all. They're such a flat packable item and stuff like that. And you customize them really, really well too. I love the fact that you have like some of the cordage that you you use, it has like the reflective style on it too, 'cause I just leave my shoes. I'm the kind of guy that leave my shoes everywhere. And I'm always in my headlamp, I'm like, where are they? Yeah. Or if it's just my red light and I can just kind of all of a sudden see it reflecting to grab them real quick and throw them on. So that's why I went with like the reflective cordage option because I like, okay, I know that I'm gonna leave these sitting somewhere. I'm never gonna be able to find them. So so yeah. So so going back to I guess when you you started launch and stuff like that, w When you launched out, what was the expectation? Were you expecting I know you were like, I know it's gonna be something that's going to take on its a life of its own, it's gonna take up some of your time, but was the launch s slow and then as you had that ad come out that you were like, slow it down or or was it like full gung ho as soon as you launched? speaker-1: it's I would say it's been pretty steady. It's been right at the cusp of like I wouldn't want to make more myself. speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: I I I like I said, I very much prioritize quality of life. Time and flexibility is to me is success. speaker-0: Yeah. So I speaker-1: I want to be able to play a lot. You know, and speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I'm in the position where I can do that. And I I do want to grow this brand and I want to obviously I wanna you know, I wanna get more sandals out there because I believe in them, but at the same time I I'm not willing to do that at the detriment of my quality of life. I've speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: been there, done that. I've owned several businesses, I have a hundred percent gone in the other direction and just yeah. buried myself in work when I was younger and it was it wasn't worth it, you know? Yeah. And it took me a long time to realize that that that really wasn't what I wanted personally. I mean, I know there's a lot of people who they love that. You know, I mean I have tons of friends who brag about being in the weeds and just I'm so I'm so buried and they you know, but at red up you know, two seconds later they're complaining about it. Yeah. So yeah. That was a hard lesson to learn, but over the years I've I've figured out that yeah, time and flexibility is is what I want. speaker-0: That's a good I think I think for most people and I always go back to just my health concerns that I had when I was so busy at one point working multiple jobs and transitioning to running my own business. And I was just I I look back at it now and I'm like, man, I was always like you say, like some of your friends are like, they're so like, look how much I've got going on. And then later on you're like, man, I wish I had time. I just got before we got on, I just got off the phone with a client of mine who we've been trying to get a phone call going, but he's always super, super busy. And he was like, Man, I'm just so busy. And fall break happened and he wasn't able to spend too much time with his kids because he has to work so much. And I was like, Man, that was the number one thing. And you have kids too. So you know, like when you have kids, you know, whether you have kids or not, but you know, when you have kids, you kind of are like, I wanna spend time with them because I don't want the TV, the video games, the whatever, whether you can spend time with them outdoors or not. It's you want to spend as much time and like the older I get, right, the older we get, we're like, man, I quality of life seems more important than having a whole bunch of money to just do whatever. Like I me and my wife cannot wait to sell our house when the kids are out and move to a place where it's just a tiny home. Yeah. And I can just sit and drink my coffee, go for a mountain biking or hiking or something like that. So I mean that that's that's a great little tidbit I think for people to understand is when they're running their own company, you're gonna have those grinds, but you're also gonna have that like, man, I wanna get to a point where I can relax and whether that's hiring people or or or that kind of thing. So I guess with talking about hiring people too, as you grow, are you thinking of And since you've run businesses before, are you thinking of I may have to hire somebody or are you just like, Hey, I'm just fine with where it's at? Or you I'm sure that entrepreneur inside of you is kinda going, I could see where it could go, right? So speaker-1: That is probably the biggest question that I'm wrestling with right now. there's a part of me that wants to say, okay, let's let's set up a a shop, let's get employees, let's start making everything in-house. but at the same time, I know how that goes. And I do know that that will still still cut into my time of flexibility a hundred percent. so I've been looking into having a tech pack made. To see if I can get some, you know, some estimates and some ideas of what it would cost to at least have like an all black version made in Vietnam. this is all very new to me. But something that's very important to me. And I I don't know if I'm right in this to think this way, but when I think of like making something in China or Vietnam, it scares the hell out of me because I'm afraid. that I might make pr a product that would have a negative impact on whoever's making that product. I wanna make if I'm gonna do that, I I'm gonna have to go visit the factory, the area that these things are being made because I wanna make sure that we're doing it ethically, things are sourced properly and that we're not taking advantage of someone just because I want to make some ultralice handles. You know? Yeah I I'm not willing to to have a negative impact on people's lives just because I want to make a product. So that is all very new to me. Just starting to research that. Fortunately, like I said, I have friends who are kind of in that space and other deer companies and they've they've kind of given me some I you know some ideas and some thoughts on that. So that's that's kind of where I'm at getting the tech getting the tech back made and then I can go down that rabbit hole. But I I think that's I think that's what I'd like to do. The only issue with that is that like you mentioned, you know, you like the fact that you can customize the colors and and things like that. And it would be much more difficult for me, at least initially, to have all these sizes, all these colors, you know, and and all of that creates a lot of variance. So I would probably have to go with just black reflective. which oddly enough is what most people order. speaker-0: Yeah. I speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: that. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, people love black. It's always the I think the top seller for clothes, backpacks, like everything. People just gravitate toward that simple, easy color. So speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. No, I like the fact that you're trying to do it ethically. And the great thing is you have those contacts, so they're saying like, hey, use this place or this place 'cause yeah, I a couple of times I had gone to a few countries in I was in Ethiopia one time and I went by a a place where they were I was working shooting for a nonprofit that was basically taking kids out of slave labor and child sex trafficking and bringing them into actual ethical factories helping them work a job and then save up for school. And it was neat going undercover and going to these places that were very un I mean, these kids are just like literally what you see on TV where it's just, you know, a 10-year-old kid who's not going to school, who's just making a silk screening something. And we're trying to like figure out where this kid lives and then move this kid who has no family. out and it was it was crazy but I'm it's it's neat to see people who really do care about the the people that are making the gear you know as opposed to just I got a cheap piece of gear we actually complete side note but we were doing a a collab with for our social media for a big well-known website that sells really really cheap stuff and and we decided to Cancel that contract because we just heard so many bad things. We're like, we don't want to promote this website because they literally just use up a lot of cheap products and cheap labor and and and everything else. We're like, you know what? Let's not go that route. So I mean that's great. I think that's why your business continues to grow and flourish, is because you have a heart for the product, for the people and everything else. when When you were creating this whole thing, I know you kinda alluded to a little bit of a crap kind of a moment, but are there any kind of crap moments as you've been going, that you're like, Man, I'm never gonna do that again? speaker-1: Never gonna do that again. Hmm. I don't know. I mean this problem speaker-0: Just like a like a weird thing that's maybe happened since speaker-1: Yeah, this product is so s like streamlined and simple. There's not a lot to there's really not a lot to screw up. Yeah. speaker-0: That that's a good thing, right? As opposed to having a huge product with nine thousand different pieces or all kinds of weird stuff. speaker-1: Yeah, but I will say probably the biggest hurdle that I've had was building a Shopify store because I've never I've never worked in e commerce. All my businesses have, you know, been service industry businesses. And okay. I've never done this before. So and oddly enough, when I started working on the Shopify store, you know, it was like going back and forth with in a chat and you know, it would take like a while for them to get back to me and it was just it was so difficult. And then my son Jackson was able to help me a lot because he's actually worked in some e-commerce stuff. And then sometime maybe right before summer, right right around the time that I ended up launching the store, Shopify integrated what they call Sidekick. And it is it is an AI assistant, and it I mean you ask it anything. that you want to do in your store and it literally just is like go here, here's the links, here's how to I mean, you can you can edit code, you it makes everything incredibly easy and intuitive. Yeah, it's it's scary. speaker-0: Yeah. No, I think some speaker-1: yeah. speaker-0: of the hardest part of it, right, is making that's a good point. I I I should have tried to have somebody from that's like a web developer on for easy kind of just not so much like complicated web development, but yeah, you know, because I think you have a product and now you're like, Well, I have to sell it and it's whether you use Shopify or whatever you use, it's never an easy process. speaker-1: And and there were moments where I definitely was banging my head against the wall and I was like, Man, do I really want to do this? Like this is this is pretty complicated. And then luckily I had Jackson to help me. And then shortly after that, they they brought on this or added this AI assistant. And then that just made it incredibly easy. Not not that Shopify is super difficult anyway, but you know, I'm just other than building some websites on, you know. website building platforms in the past, like Wix and things like that, where it's pretty easy. I have no experience with that. So speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. No, they need they need courses. It's kind of like when you start a business and you're like, I need a business license, my tax ID, all these different things. Let's do it. There's n it's no one-stop shop. It's like they need a one-stop shop for everybody to just be able to go, Hey, you got this product. This is everything that you need. I know there's coaches out there and stuff, but it's even harder to find them, find find that kind of thing. It is. All right. So my next question would be kind of what's one thing running an outdoor business that maybe nobody warned you about that you've come to figure out? speaker-1: An outdoor business. Like a an outdoor brand. speaker-0: Yeah, like versus the service thing. Now you're doing a product. What's what's the biggest difference that you found between the two? speaker-1: Probably the I'm definitely the e-commerce side of it. Just trying to sell something online has been completely different. I mean, I'm I'm more accustomed to dealing with people locally, in in my other businesses. And then suddenly I'm trying to pull people in from the internet and advertising advertising is completely different. speaker-0: Mm-hmm. speaker-1: so it's it's a completely new world for me. But I love the fact that it's that it is the outdoor community because like that's really what I'm interested in and that's that's what I've been tinkering with for years. my buddy Chris that makes light AF backpacks is always busting me up because he says I just tinker with everything. Like I can't leave anything alone, you know. He'll he'll make something and send it to me, you know, to to test and to mess with and you know, and I just immediately am like well I'll pull this off and I'll take this loop out and you know I'm just always messing with things. I just can't help it. But yeah. So I think I really love the outdoor community. have you ever been to trail days or anything like that? speaker-0: F this year was the first time I went to Trail Days. Okay. So yeah, A T trail days, it was awesome. speaker-1: Yeah. I I just love the hiking community. Like I I can't really I can't think of one time that I've met a hiker where I was like, man, that guy is such a jerk. Like everyone's just everyone's so friendly and so willing to like help out and you know, you all kind of have a common goal and even like when we were in you know, we're in France or Italy or wherever, when we were on the Tour de Mont Blanc, You know, you're hanging out with all these people from around the world and you're having these communal dinners and chatting it up and everyone is just so friendly and yeah awesome to be around. And I just I love that. And that and that's part of the reason that I'm willing to like launch this brand is because I love the hiking community. You know, I just enjoy being around them. So yeah. speaker-0: That's awesome. How was the Tour de Mont Blanc, by the way? Because that's one that's like on my bucket list and I really my wife and I really want to do it. speaker-1: Dude, it is just go do it. Beautiful. speaker-0: Yeah. It's usually it. speaker-1: Well, have you ever done like a hut to hut trip? You know, like speaker-0: I've never done. speaker-1: and you don't have to do it in a way, but you know, you know, you can stay in a hut every night. And my wife and I typically in the States when we're backpacking, you know, we're carrying all our gear, we're sleeping in a tent, cooking all our meals, whatever, unless we're going through a town to resupply or whatnot. And on the tour to Mont Blanc, we We did it hut style. So every night we were staying at a hut. You get a bed, you usually you'll get a shower, and then you have a communal dinner and breakfast, and then you can opt for a lun a packed lunch the next day. So you I mean you're carrying virtually nothing, you know, a couple of layers and you know you do have to carry a like a they call it a a meat sack in Europe, but it's it's a sleeping bag liner. you do have to have that. but it's it is absolutely stunning. Like the trail itself is beautiful. it's pretty challenging. It's not anything that's gonna kill you by any means, but there's some good climbs. my wife's terrified of heights. There's some ladders that are really exposed. You have to climb up and she she's so stubborn, she did it anyway. She's super speaker-0: She's speaker-1: tough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's amazing. Yeah, I would highly recommend it. We're tr we're trying to do the the A V one in the Dolomites this coming summer. We're about to start trying to book our huts. That's that is a major pain in the ass. It really is. speaker-0: Ice tough. I saw w we were in Italy this past year, we met somebody who had done it and or the Ultra Via one. And they were like, You have to do it and I f I found a travel agency because I was like, I could do it myself, but I found someone who could also who's local that helped me book it and it wasn't too crazy expensive that I was like, Well, you know what, instead of that headache, I'll I'll work on it. But I my wife was wanted to do it but I she wants to do it very bougie, so it's like, okay, we'll do it the nice way and then maybe one year we'll do it where I just go with a buddy and we just do it as sketch as possible. I know y you can't camp everywhere 'cause some some countries they don't allow wild camping and s and stuff like that, but speaker-1: Right. Right. Yeah. And are you you're a runner, yeah? speaker-0: Yeah, yeah. So I just watched U T and B that was over there too, so speaker-1: So that's the other thing about that trail is that, you know, there's a lot of people hiking. There's a lot of people day hiking, but there's ton of people trail running the whole thing. And they're doing the same thing. They're crashing in a hut at night, but they're just running with the best. And then you also have people mountain biking the trail. so it's just this crazy diverse mix of people doing the same thing and it's it is amazing. But I would love to go back and and run it. I think that would be super fun. Obviously not speaker-0: That would be speaker-1: I wouldn't do it in, you know, one go like the U T and B, but to run, you know, maybe I don't know, fifty fifty kilometers a day or something like that and then just crash. Yeah. That be super fun, I think. speaker-0: That'd be awesome. You have to do like a like a challenge. You need to do the whole the whole thing with your sandals on. speaker-1: my god. speaker-0: for like that'll go viral, just do it. Do it in speaker-1: Yeah, that would speaker-0: your sandals. speaker-1: that would be a good test. That would be a good test. Yeah, yeah. my gosh. speaker-0: all right. So I do have a question for you that is kind of in the back of my mind a little bit. And I know I had kind of talked about some other types of sandals I had tried before. So how do you deal with because I know a lot of companies, you know, we talk about how the outdoor community is really, really nice, but you also have people that also make competing products and stuff like that. So how do you work with people maybe saying to you, you've copied this person, or just even working with with or against competitors and stuff like that. Like how wha how's your personal feelings on that? And how does that work for you? speaker-1: I no one's told me that I've copied anything. I don't Yeah, I don't yeah. Yeah, I don't I mean I don't think that my sandals are similar enough to anyone really. I at least that I'm aware of. I'm sure somebody will eventually copy them and throw them on Amazon for five dollars. That seems to be the way things go with ultralight gear these days. Yeah. But yeah, there's nothing there's really nothing out there that I'm aware of that is the same right in that same weight and durability balance. but there are some other great camps shoes. I mean, if you you know, if you're not looking for something that has that thong fit like you were saying, that it's gonna go between your toes, you know, some people really want to wear something that they can just slide their foot into. I speaker-0: You know what? speaker-1: think a lot of people also make make the assumption that you can't wear socks with the sandals that I make, and you certainly can. I mean, obviously the best way to do it is to either wear toe socks or to get like the split toed, like ninja socks, you know that I like to call them. That's super comfortable. And that's what I hike with as my sleep sock and my camp sock. So if it's chilly enough, then I'll throw those on and they work great with the sandals. Ginji makes or bedrock and in Ginji make a great split toe sock. And then you can also just pull out like an inch or so of fabric beyond your toes of your regular stock and then just kind of push your finger between your big toe and next toe. And just it that works fine too. I've done that hundreds of times. Yeah. but that's I'd say that's the biggest difference. And some people have requested that, but for me to do that, it kind of takes away from that intention that I have of these sandals really staying on your foot. Even when you do have a little bit of a precarious situation, I I want I want that thing to stay on my foot really well. And I have run in these sandals. I've run them. I have like in the Shenandoah's, I like to go fly fishing up there quite a bit. And I've worn them for like four days straight. So like a you know, a five mile hike down to the river, fishing in them the entire time, in and out of the river, and then hiking back up. Skyline drive, you know, another five miles out and totally fine. so I think it's just really as far as competition goes, like I think it's I think it's people need to know what they're looking for. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: So if they're looking for something that's gonna protect your foot, stay on your foot, super lightweight and packable, then the sandals I'm making work great. Like you want to slide your foot in something and Or you don't like that thong feel then you know, you're gonna have to go elsewhere. Get yourself some crocs. You know, I mean speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Nothing wrong with that. There really isn't. you know, everyone's different and your choices are different for everyone. And this is just what I happen to want and make, you know. speaker-0: I think that's good because you like some people get really scared when someone mentions another company other than theirs. Yeah. And I think if you're confident, like like you sound completely a hundred percent bought into this is because I when you when I meet somebody who really believes in their product, I'm like, they're gonna crush it all the time. Yeah. And when you meet someone who's not confident in their product, they they constantly mention The competitors instead of mentioning their product, when you're comment when you're talking about them, they're like, yeah, did you hear so-and-so is making this now or this? And I'm like, you just have to worry about yourself. And I I I've been wanting to kind of have a couple of similar products on at one point where it's like a conversation between two or three different brands who make something similar just to kind of talk about hey, how can we help each other grow? together instead of just competing with each other, right? I'm sure, I'm sure Lowe's and Home Depot have those conversations all the time. Yeah. Sure. but I it's just great to see people who are confident their pro their products. And man, I just really I'm thinking of like I always think of these things that I want to do. And I'm like, man, I want now go hiking in your sandals like for a hundred I want to do a hundred miles. in those sandals just to kind of I wish I was a YouTuber sometimes because I know there's some YouTubers that are out there they're like, I crossed the country in Crocs or I, you know, did this thing right in these kind of shoes. And I'm like, man, I want to totally do something wild and and record it. But as I don't have the audience for it to follow to be that that crazy. But but that's really, really cool. So I guess my next question before we kind of go into the lightning round is can you tell me a moment where a customer story or a customer review really hits you hard in a good way or a bad way? speaker-1: Mm. Customer review. yeah, yeah, yeah. fortunately, I haven't really had any negative reviews, you know. but like I was saying before, I've I was surprised at how like the local community and the surf community have embraced the sandals. And this local guy, Willie, just recently did a sprint triathlon and he ran barefoot. He swam barefoot and then he wore my sandals for the bike section of the triathlon, which I thought was really, really cool, you know? Yeah. And then he has just embraced these sandals like it's the only thing he wears. He doesn't like he he just wears them all the time. And he just he just went to Florida for two weeks and was telling me how he was he was wearing them on that whole trip and then he actually had him like out on the dance floor at a club and And everything and so he's getting he's moving to Puerto Rico and he's he wanted to make sure he got a second pair before he took off. I was like, Absolutely man. Are you kidding me? Yeah, of course. speaker-0: That's so cool. That's speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: so random. I love st I love good stories like that just make me go, man. Like I'm sure when you hear stuff like that, you're like, I the for the next like two or three days you're just making sandals going, This is exactly why I'm making them. Yeah. speaker-1: Yeah, and it just like not only the fact is it like is it a you know a positive review of the sandal, a positive, you know, outlook on the sandals, but it just I love the fact that this dude's having so much fun in the sandals. You know? I just as I love it, you know. So kinda speaker-0: That's crazy. Yeah. so for you yourself, I know that you kind of take a lot of time for yourself and everything else. So outside of surfing and stuff like that, how do you still stay connected to you know like kind of walk me through a day of you with getting orders versus having the time to stay connected to the outdoor space? Like how do you stay connected to the outdoor space when you're working or have you found yet And maybe this forget that scratch that question. Since you've started, this is actually a better one that I think would be better. Since you've been running the business, have you found yet your groove onto when orders are coming in? Or are you finding that like orders are picking up are less now because of the summer is over, or you've seen them pick up now because holidays are starting to come up, or have you found that kind of flow yet? speaker-1: no. Like I said before, it's been it's been it's been very steady. Steady when I posted the the one random Instagram ad that I had to pull down because it yeah, things just kinda like whoa. You know? So speaker-0: What what was the ad? speaker-1: it was just an ad of a couple of clips from, you know, me and the sandals and other people, some of the photos from our website. It was super simple. I mean, it was thrown together like so quickly. And yeah, and then I just threw it out there as a regular Instagram ad and and yeah, I was like, wait, wait, wait, wait. And you know, I had to take it down. So which is speaker-0: That's cool. speaker-1: good, I think, because I know even with a terrible ad, I can can pump things up if I want, you know? Yeah. So and I I do and I don't, right? Like you asked, how do I how do I stay connected? And I do have I do have a two-week lead time. That's the other thing that I've decided to do because that way if I want to go hike for a week, I can and I can come back and I can still get the orders out on time. And because I never want someone to be unhappy because I didn't get an order out on time. I just I yeah I've never I've never liked to make promises I can't keep in business throughout the years and I certainly don't want to do it with this brand. Yeah. But for that I mean speaker-0: That's good. speaker-1: sorry, go ahead. speaker-0: No, I was just gonna say that's a great way to stay connected, I think. And keeping it your customers satisfied is knowing that since you're doing it yourself, because I think some people get so like I have to have ship it tomorrow and everything. But now you and you can underpromise and over deliver, which is would be a good thing, which you agree. Typically I do, yeah. But then you all yeah, but then you have that lead time where if you have to go, if you're at you if you're on the tour de Mont Blanc and and everything else and you can't fulfill orders for ten days, at least you know you can come back and do that. I think people need to take that into account. And that way you can do that whole underpromise over deliver. speaker-1: Yeah, and I mean have you ever have you ever ordered a product where you thought it was gonna take a couple of weeks or a month to ship and then you get an email in three days that says, Hey, we ship we're shipping your product. You're like, Yeah, that's awesome. No, speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: that's that's super cool. So it allows me to kind of do both. I get the flexibility, but I also get to surprise people at the same time. And I still get to go outside and play a lot. That's the that's the goal for me. I mean, I hate to keep coming back to that, but that is that is what I want, you know. And I I I mean, I would hope that people maybe would support the brand because they also feel that way. I mean, that's what I want people to do with the sandals is go outside and enjoy them and do fun stuff. I don't want I mean, I'm okay if somebody buys a pair of sandals and they sit in their closet, you know, for months and months and they use them once a year. That's totally fine. But I I'm a firm believer in time outside and I think time and nature is kind of like it's therapy. It's so good for you. And speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: I just try and promote that in every way I can. I mean, I think the more people the more people can get out and disconnect from screens like we're on right now. And just just get out and disconnect and move your body and challenge yourself a little bit and Man, it just makes you feel so much better. It's a way to live. It really is. That's speaker-0: Yeah. That's good. That's awesome. Well, thank you. I really appreciate you kind of just letting us know about your company and about you. And just I love the heart behind your business. And I think it's really going to resonate with a lot of people who are listening. so we're gonna go into the lightning round real quick. It's just gonna be a couple of quick questions to get to know you a little bit more. Do it. you've probably heard them because you're a listener. but first thing is we always love to ask your favorite national park. speaker-1: you know, I thought about this one 'cause I have listened to a lot of episodes. Yeah. Dude, it's so hard for me to pick a favorite, but I would say probably either Denali or Zion. Probably one of those. Okay. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: Stanali sounds like those are completely opposite kind of like parks. Like totally completely different. speaker-1: Yes. Yeah, but I mean I I don't know. I loved Denali. It was beautiful. I did a I did the Zion Traverse with my my brother in Zion and that was a really special fun trip for me. So and it's a beautiful park. I mean Zion's amazing. So yeah, one of those two probably. speaker-0: Okay. Yeah. next question is tent, hammock, or cowboy camping? speaker-1: Tent. Absolutely. Yeah. speaker-0: Okay. Yeah. and then this one's gonna be interesting because you're live where you live. but mountains, desert, or coast? speaker-1: as far as which one I would want to spend the most time in? Yeah. Whew that's so hard to I'm inspired by the mountains. I live at the coast. I love the coast and I I will probably always live on the coast. but man, when I get in the mountains, it's just it it's amazing. It's beautiful and and I I just love it. Yeah. So speaker-0: Yeah. Yeah. speaker-1: I'd have to pick that, yeah. speaker-0: Okay. W we just got back from taking our kids for fall break to New York and when we finally went, after spending so much time in the city, we had a wedding that I had to shoot in New Jersey and we we got a small cabin on a lake and I was like, Man, I can't believe New York is an hour away. But we were sitting on the lake, the sun was coming up and I was like, Man, my wife goes, I love this right now. I can't believe we're going to the city, back to the city, but We're like, yeah, we want to enjoy and I and I was like, Man, she goes, This is so inspiring just to sit by the lake and my brain can think. And I guess everybody's inspired in different ways, right? I know there's people that live in the city that are like they have to be in all that noise for them to really think. But I mean when you can shut your brain down and let just your brain just soak in the stuff around you that God's made, it's just incredible. So yeah. okay. This is my favorite one. Is what's your favorite trail snack? speaker-1: Favorite trail snack. my gosh. Probably Oreos. Yeah. But not but not but not regular Oreos. The golden Oreos. Yeah, like the vanilla kind of cream. Yeah, yeah, speaker-0: Yeah, speaker-1: yeah. speaker-0: yeah, yeah, yeah. So did you see Oreo has a competition going on right now? It's i they have three flavors. One of them's chicken and waffles. I only know this because we what our some of our kids have dairy allergies and so they can have regular Oreos. And these ones have so there's that and there's two more. I can't remember what they are, but we got them And then you can vote on the new flavor or whatever. But I mean waffles. The chicken and waffles one is was is my favorite right now. I love going to the store and looking down the Oreo aisle and seeing what kind of weird one of them was a that rocket popsicle, right? It's like white and blue. Yeah. speaker-1: Like three colors. speaker-0: So it was like red, white, and blue, rocket popsicle. It tasted just like the popsicle. and then I can't remember the third one, but I think they were like fall, summertime kind of flavors. I don't know who the winner is, but now I'm probably gonna go get Oreos after this when I go to the store. speaker-1: That's kinda bizarre. I've never heard of that. speaker-0: okay, and then what's your worst trail snack you've ever tried or you stay away from? speaker-1: Ooh, worse trail snack. I don't know if this is considered a snack, but I was on a backpacking trip with my brother and and a couple other friends, and one of them brought out an MRE that belonged to his dad that was probably I don't even forty years old. It was crazy old. And we do some stupid things sometimes. And so we popped this thing open and I think it was the Maybe it was some of the cookies or s I can't I can't even remember what it was that I tried to eat. speaker-0: It was yeah. speaker-1: Absolutely one of the worst things I've ever tasted. Awful. It was so bad. Yeah. I'd I'd say that's speaker-0: Brutal. speaker-1: that's probably the worst thing that I've ever eaten on trail. Yeah. speaker-0: I'm worried about going on trail and taking a meal that because I have so many I don't know about you, but have so many meals, but then I forget to look at the date sometimes. Mm-hmm. And then I'm like, Well, it's only like six months overdue and it's still dry and all but but then part of me is like if I get dysentery on trail, then what's what's gonna happen? You know, I'm gonna be digging the biggest cat hole ever. speaker-1: Yeah. So yeah, I have I have had I don't know if it was Giardia, but probably probably was. And that is not fun, especially when you're you know out in the backcountry. It is absolutely horrible. Yeah. So that's speaker-0: Yeah. Brutal. Yeah. speaker-1: Trying to void that. speaker-0: next question. biggest splurge you've ever made for your business so far. speaker-1: for my business, for this business for the sandals, yeah. probably setting up we we moved a little outbuilding into onto our property and set it up as a little shop. That's probably the most expensive thing that I've done for the sandals. But honestly, so far it hasn't been a huge investment. I mean yeah, at least comparative to other things that I've done, you know, in the past and Been pretty low risk, low investment. and to be honest, we're hoping to turn this building into a a little tiny house in the future and rent speaker-0: cool. speaker-1: out our house and travel during the summer. And then we can just kind of bounce in here if we need if we need a place to stay. So yeah, we're hoping to do that in maybe another year or two. Yeah. speaker-0: Yeah. That'll be good. Road trips are always the best just to get out and go where you want to go. You can just put that tiny home on the beach and go surfing like right out your back door. I a place you gotta go check out is it's called Shyshy Beach, I think. It's up in northwest Washington State. And it's like you can see Canada from it and it's like something it's like you're in the movie Goonies, but then the waves and it's It's so surreal, but you can camp right down the beach. Sounds nice. And it it's pretty wild. but yeah, check that place out. but cool. you know, I forgot to ask you actually, if people are trying to wanna buy s your sandals, where can they find you? speaker-1: they just go to the shop. it's the ultralightmindset dot com. speaker-0: Okay. Yeah. speaker-1: Certainly the easiest way. if they want to follow on Instagram, same handle, the ultralight mindset. It's pretty much everything. So yeah, that's that's the easiest way to find all of it. And yeah, they're like I said, super lightweight, men's size nine is like three point seven ounces. speaker-0: Wow. That's for the pair? speaker-1: That is for the pair. speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: Yeah. Yeah, they are incredibly lightweight, but also durable speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: enough to get around quite a bit and slide right into your pack or on top of your pack or whatever, man. that's awesome. Yeah. speaker-0: Well yeah. Thanks Scott. I appreciate you being on. Everybody, thank you so much for listening to Be On the Trailhead again this week. And we're looking forward to next week. Thanks so much, Scott. Awesome. speaker-1: Thanks for having me man, I appreciate it. speaker-0: Thank you. Bye bye.