Latest / A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast / Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (1/4)

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Talks to David Gillespie-Pratt about his choice of The Myth Makers (1/4) · A Hamster With a Blunt Penknife - a Doctor Who Commentary podcast

• 0:23
  None. Hamster with a blump pen knife
• 0:35
  for doing quicker. Quicker, quicker.
• 0:40
  Welcome back to our Hubster with a Blump Pen Knife, the Doctor
• 0:42
  Who commentary Podcast. Do you know, David, it's very
• 0:46
  refreshing to do this with you today because just recently I've
• 0:49
  been doing book clubs and academic discussions on Doctor
• 0:53
  Who going. Woke and all sorts, BFI set
• 0:56
  visit reports. It's quite nice to sit down and
• 0:59
  talk about an episode of Doctor Who that we can watch together.
• 1:03
  I think you're being generous by saying watch.
• 1:06
  There is a slight problem with this particular story.
• 1:09
  Is that that? Nobody really knows what it was
• 1:12
  like. The fact that we have something
• 1:15
  like 15 seconds worth of footage from it and about 8 pictures,
• 1:21
  no, there's more than eight. Someone will probably come along
• 1:23
  and say, but yeah, is this one of the most unknowable missing
• 1:29
  stories? Possibly, but I would counter
• 1:35
  that by saying that over the last week you and I have
• 1:38
  explored the myth makers in various ways.
• 1:41
  I've done the novelisation and the Recon.
• 1:44
  You've done The Black Archive. I've done bits of the Black
• 1:47
  Archive. It only turned up on Saturday
• 1:49
  and when we choose it, I've flipped through it and going
• 1:53
  through done my usual thing. I've gone through the camera
• 1:55
  scripts, bless you, because that's because that's that's
• 1:59
  apparently my thing because I've just done a posted a video on
• 2:02
  YouTube. I was telling my husband about
• 2:04
  it and he says, did you mention camera scripts at all in it?
• 2:07
  And I was like, yeah. And he's like, oh, it's like,
• 2:11
  apparently that's my thing. So effectively, you have read
• 2:15
  it. I've also read it in prose.
• 2:18
  I've watched it as a Recon, and I was quite impressed with the
• 2:21
  Recon, given the the slim pickings of material that they
• 2:24
  had, that they actually managed to make it visually interesting.
• 2:28
  I I could follow the story, you know.
• 2:31
  And and this is the if, it's the second loose cannon one compared
• 2:36
  to the first one, which somebody very generously sent me a copy
• 2:39
  of because I had it on video back when it first came loose
• 2:41
  Cannon's first go and that's before they started doing all
• 2:45
  that composites and everything. So if they didn't have a photo,
• 2:49
  it was sometimes full screen text and.
• 2:52
  I suppose they can only do what what they've got, can't they?
• 2:56
  Well, when I've got it because the first, it was like, well,
• 2:58
  they also recap or they used pictures from other stories, but
• 3:02
  of like other actors, because there's no pictures of Paris,
• 3:06
  there's no pictures of Achilles or anything, you know, apart
• 3:10
  from maybe they've got some helmets on.
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  So they just picked, I think they picked a character from the
• 3:14
  Romans for one of them. I think Altos from Keys of
• 3:17
  Mariners is playing a killer. Oh, bless.
• 3:20
  It was basically doing and, and when I got it, it was like, oh,
• 3:23
  I might share this because isn't this bit bit silly or bit daft
• 3:26
  looking back And then I was like, no, don't what?
• 3:28
  Don't be a Dick because that's somebody's somebody's made that
• 3:30
  and they've got a lot of effort into it.
• 3:32
  That's always good advice, you know.
• 3:33
  Don't be a Dick. And it's it's more kind of
• 3:36
  appreciating that at the time technology, you know you can
• 3:41
  this is what I do side, you can do all the stuff on your phone
• 3:43
  now, but back then you needed proper professional tools to do
• 3:48
  composites and and do all those sorts of fancy things that they
• 3:51
  were able to do with the second one.
• 3:53
  And so I was watching about going it still tells the story.
• 3:56
  It does it, maybe a little more economically, but it's still
• 3:59
  followed by I still watched it back in 1999, still watched it
• 4:03
  and enjoyed it. It's just there are bits where
• 4:06
  it's like you're relying very much on the text telling you
• 4:09
  what's going on rather than the visuals.
• 4:11
  Although the soundtrack is very easy to follow as well, I think
• 4:15
  it's very, very clear and we'll definitely get into that because
• 4:17
  I think the dialogue's amazing. I have realised, you know, that
• 4:20
  we haven't actually mentioned what we're going to be talking
• 4:22
  about today. We've just alluded to it.
• 4:24
  So I'd like to offer you a gift, this great giant hamster,
• 4:29
  because I hear you venerate the great hamster.
• 4:32
  So if this could just penetrate your walls.
• 4:34
  Well, we'll bring it in and then we'll just go to bed and leave
• 4:37
  it, you know? Happiness.
• 4:38
  I promise you, there's not an army inside of it.
• 4:41
  There's You know you're not going to be massacred in the
• 4:42
  night. And and just I was reminded,
• 4:47
  there's a scene in Red Dwarf. There's a joke in Red Dwarf
• 4:49
  where Lister's basically say how stupid the Trojan myth is and
• 4:52
  he's like how how dumb the Greeks were.
• 4:54
  You know anyone that stupid deserves to get cosplatted.
• 4:59
  And it's like, yeah, let's let's take this horse in.
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  Let's just ignore it. But do you know what?
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  OK, And we will talk about a plot obviously in there.
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  But I think the fact that you know that the the army is seen,
• 5:12
  you know, on the sea going away and the fact that this great
• 5:15
  thing which symbolises what they worship has appeared, I think
• 5:20
  it's so stupid, you know? Well, that's the thing with the
• 5:24
  the myth and the legend and how much of it actually happened.
• 5:28
  Well, we need to get into this because I'm absolutely
• 5:31
  convinced, you know, that Donald Cotton gives us two versions of
• 5:34
  this, the TV version where he tells you how the myth came
• 5:37
  about and then the book version, and they're very, very
• 5:40
  different. So we'll get into that too.
• 5:43
  So it is in fact the myth makers that we are talking about today.
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  If you haven't worked it out already.
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  I never, ever have given this story much consideration, David,
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  and my mind has been blown over the last week at how good this
• 5:57
  is, how funny it is, how well characterized it is, how well
• 6:01
  plotted it is, and God man, how witty that dialogue is.
• 6:06
  There is some great I was reading the bits of the Black
• 6:09
  Archive that I did. There's a lot of jokes in this,
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  and there's some jokes that I've gone over my head as well,
• 6:14
  because it was like because there's a lot of classical
• 6:17
  references or certain. Certainly when Hector and
• 6:20
  Achilles are hurling insults and I think like some of those
• 6:23
  things going, they're just the things they're saying are
• 6:26
  actually potentially quite rude insults at each other.
• 6:30
  But you can get away with it because it's done in this.
• 6:32
  Classical style? Well, there's definitely one
• 6:34
  very rude line about an orgy in there, you know?
• 6:37
  Yep. Which wouldn't have seen the
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  light of day these days, would it?
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  There were, there were more than a couple of jokes and a couple
• 6:43
  of moments the, you know, compliance would be taking a red
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  pen going, yeah, you can't, no, no orgies.
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  There's a discussion about infidelity.
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  What? About a woman who's bonking away
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  from half the Greek army. It's unbelievable.
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  This is definitely the. Period where the the the rules
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  have not yet been determined. And you've got a new producer
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  and and a relatively new script editor who want to make their
• 7:11
  mark and they want to be a bit more grown up.
• 7:14
  So what's more grown up than adultery and orgies and, you
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  know, sacking of cities and everything?
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  So it is definitely you take. Sacking of cities then, didn't
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  you? Sacking.
• 7:25
  I think that's right. Yes, OK.
• 7:28
  Oh, just because some of those, those Greek art, you know,
• 7:32
  soldiers are very pretty. Or at least they were in the
• 7:35
  Reconstruction anyway. When we come to when we come to
• 7:39
  Episode 3, they're on the script.
• 7:41
  There's one of the extras listed and it was Frank Butcher, Mike
• 7:48
  Reed. He's down as well.
• 7:50
  I'll take it back. Possibly he's one of the Greeks
• 7:53
  inside the house, but only on episode 3.
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  Was he going pat, Pat you? Listen carefully to the
• 7:59
  soundtrack. You can probably just hear him
• 8:00
  going back in the background. I'm sure you can.
• 8:03
  But what about you then? If I've, if I've, you know this
• 8:06
  has been a revelation to me. Have you just always loved this?
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  You. Chose this, remember?
• 8:13
  I chose this I think because I can't remember why I chose it.
• 8:16
  It was just pick pick A because. You're mad.
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  You chose Underworld 1st and then the Myth Makers second.
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  I clearly got the thing for myths and myths and legends, I
• 8:27
  think, because, well, when I got that first loose cannon long ago
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  and, you know, it wasn't a story people talked about, it was kind
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  of like, yeah, it's there. It's kind of good, you know, 6
• 8:38
  out of 10, seven out of 10. I can't remember what the
• 8:40
  handbooks gave it, but no one really talked about it, I think
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  because there's nothing. There's so little.
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  I think even back when they did that first reconstruction, they
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  didn't even have all the production photographs that they
• 8:50
  have now. They had a couple.
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  And so it was just this great unknown.
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  And you watch it and you go, this is funny, this is this
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  script is really funny. And then it's actually quite
• 9:01
  well structured because it's like comedy, comedy, comedy,
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  horrible tragedy, but it builds to it in such a way that
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  actually it doesn't feel jarring.
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  I think there's another Doctor Who's story that would have the
• 9:13
  nerve to lull you into a false sense of security for three
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  episodes for, you know, 3/4 of it's running time, and then
• 9:22
  murder everyone horribly in that episode, you know?
• 9:25
  It's the fact they end episode 3 and then the reprise in episode
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  4 have possibly one of the worst puns in series history.
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  Do it. Do it for me now, God.
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  Woe to the Trojans and woe to the House of crime.
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  It's too late to say woe to the horse.
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  Always terrible. There's a wonderful bit on the
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  loose Loose cannon documentary bit where Donald Cotton goes.
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  Not Donald Cotton. Sorry, Donald, Tosh, Too many
• 9:53
  Donalds goes. Oh, his puns were just terrible.
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  He goes. I was there with red ink all
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  over the scripts. And no, we're taking that one
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  out. A lot of them got.
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  In though, I think. I think there was a battle over
• 10:06
  the episode titles. I think the only one that he won
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  on was small profit, quick return.
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  I think all the others become more.
• 10:13
  How dare they not use Is there a doctor in the horse?
• 10:18
  Yeah. That's in the book, though.
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  He used that one in a well that's written in 85, so he's
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  he's had 20 years to think about it, you know, but.
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  It's unbelievable, isn't it, that you've got these fabulous
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  comic characters like Paris and people like and they're all
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  slaughtered in the last and they're not even.
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  Given a chance. To have a pun or anything like
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  that. They're just killed.
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  They'd rather kill and I think Cassandra sort of dragged off
• 10:45
  and basically they, you know, they don't necessarily say it
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  but like you know, we know what's going to happen to her.
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  She's been, I think she's been taken to Agam, Agam and Mum.
• 10:55
  So getting. There.
• 10:56
  Well done. You're doing a William Hardall
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  there. You know that that her fate is
• 11:01
  pretty brutal as well. It's like these are these have
• 11:04
  been comedy characters for three episodes.
• 11:07
  Maybe it's. A a stipulation that every time
• 11:09
  Francis the Wolf shows up, there has to be a rape, rape reference
• 11:13
  in there somewhere. Sorry, I'm not laughing about
• 11:16
  that. I'm being facetious.
• 11:18
  But yeah, it it's an incredible story and I don't think I'm
• 11:22
  smart enough, really, to get all of the classical illusions, you
• 11:26
  know, and all the references. But I gleamed.
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  Enough, you know. It's it.
• 11:31
  It's there's enough references in there that you don't come
• 11:33
  away going that I didn't get that.
• 11:35
  You know, even if you don't get to say, it's like when Achilles
• 11:39
  and Hector are insulting each other, you might not necessarily
• 11:41
  get the specifics of the reference of what they're saying
• 11:44
  to each other, but just the fact they're insulting each other is
• 11:48
  enough. I mean, I I studied Traulus and
• 11:52
  Cresta at school, and it wasn't until episode 4 that I realized
• 11:57
  that was what was occurring in the story.
• 11:59
  I was like, Oh dear, I must have been so beguiled by the funny
• 12:02
  lines, you know, I was distracted a lot.
• 12:06
  And it's a one shot director as well, isn't it?
• 12:09
  It is Michael Leeston Smith. And that's the thing, because
• 12:14
  normally with other directors, you've got other other stories
• 12:17
  or other episodes in the series that you can go, OK, got an idea
• 12:20
  of the style. But we have very little to go on
• 12:25
  in terms of we've got a little bit.
• 12:26
  And I'm going to save that for when we kind of get into the
• 12:29
  episode because there's some bits which were in the Black
• 12:31
  Archive, which I kind of already noted, and then I get the Black
• 12:34
  Archive open up going. That's the same point I was
• 12:36
  planning to make. They're all going to think I've
• 12:37
  nicked it from the book. I can't wait to see what you've
• 12:42
  gleaned from these camera scripts.
• 12:43
  Do you know? Because that's something I would
• 12:45
  never do. So this is a unique reading in a
• 12:48
  hamster with blood penknife today.
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  Right. It's not line by line, but
• 12:52
  there's a there's enough in there.
• 12:54
  Hopefully that'll be mildly interesting.
• 12:57
  And I've taken some screenshots of fabulous passages from the
• 13:00
  book which I'm going to read to you as we go through as well,
• 13:03
  so. You promised this.
• 13:04
  I'm looking forward to this. It's going to by the end of
• 13:05
  this, we're going to have such a brilliant sort of overview of
• 13:08
  the myth makers. It's going to be brilliant.
• 13:11
  Oh, it's going to be great. Well, look, shall we?
• 13:14
  Shall we skip into episode one? Let's let's go and visit the
• 13:17
  Temple of Secrets. You see, that's not really a
• 13:19
  partner, is it? It doesn't really work.
• 13:22
  Was this the one that was going to be Zeus Ex Machina, I think?
• 13:26
  It was it's I think it was either this episode 4 and then.
• 13:31
  OK. It kind of works, right?
• 13:33
  But because he because he turns up and they'll think he's Zeus,
• 13:35
  it's probably more logical for for this one.
• 13:38
  It helps so because now I know how to pronounce the usual one,
• 13:41
  you know? Normally I'll get that wrong.
• 13:42
  I think everyone gets that wrong when they say it.
• 13:44
  I just kind of go with it and then till some wait till someone
• 13:47
  corrects me. Mind you, I couldn't even.
• 13:49
  No, I'm not going to say that because I still get it wrong.
• 13:51
  Let's go into episode one. You can't as it go on.
• 13:55
  OK, go ahead in 321. I've got to say, was there a bit
• 14:01
  of a wobbly soundtrack on this? Because the music, which I think
• 14:04
  is supposed to be making it sound very epic, you know, all
• 14:07
  these trumpets, It's sort of wobbling and it's sounded a bit
• 14:11
  unpleasant on my ears. Certainly during that opening
• 14:14
  fight scene because there's and it does sound a little strange
• 14:18
  and because this is one, I think this is a one shot composer as
• 14:21
  well with Humphrey, Humphrey Searle.
• 14:25
  What I did gleam is that when Donald Cotton came over he
• 14:29
  brought two people with him. One was Humphrey Searle as
• 14:31
  composer and the other was Max Adrian who.
• 14:35
  Yeah. And so that possibly one, like
• 14:38
  for his first story, we've got this composer and the thing here
• 14:43
  we are, you start on the play out on location apparently.
• 14:47
  Fringe and Pons, as Peter Purvis keeps saying.
• 14:51
  And The thing is if you were watching what in late 65,
• 14:54
  because I think this was in some of the the audience surveys like
• 14:58
  where the Daleks because we've just had a Dalek episode.
• 15:01
  Why we said I think some there's some complaints people thought
• 15:04
  they'd put the wrong one out because the the one episode
• 15:07
  teaser just through people. And then I always put people on
• 15:11
  the wrong foot for this story because it's like.
• 15:12
  Very perfect, because the the audience appreciation took a
• 15:15
  massive dive. Didn't.
• 15:16
  It this did not do well and and. I mean, I get it.
• 15:20
  I've been promised this huge takeover of the Galaxy by the
• 15:23
  Daleks, and instead I'm watching these Greek soldiers fight each
• 15:25
  other, the Greeks and Trojans. These Greeks and Trojans dancing
• 15:28
  around each other, hurling insults at each other.
• 15:31
  Whilst the brass band, brass band plays, you know.
• 15:34
  Very wobbly sounding brass band plays, but they're they're just
• 15:39
  hurling inside. Now what I did, some of the
• 15:42
  facts I gleaned is that this these fights, there was some
• 15:44
  stunt double S and everything, but it sounds like the actors
• 15:46
  kept getting injured. So if nothing, if we're talking
• 15:49
  about, you know, what did it look like is probably these
• 15:52
  fights were probably quite ferocious because I think most
• 15:56
  of the actors suffered some sort of cut or injury.
• 16:00
  So it's like they're really going for it, apparently.
• 16:03
  Except the one between Stephen and Paris, which I swear to God
• 16:06
  is must have been played for comedy, the whole thing.
• 16:10
  There's a whole bit in that that is definitely one of the best
• 16:13
  comedy moments. My God, David, it's moving.
• 16:15
  It's actually moving. That's not real footage, is it?
• 16:19
  That's not real footage, there's.
• 16:20
  Shame. When the footage, when it's the
• 16:22
  real footage, it's very wobbly. What's that from then?
• 16:27
  I imagine they've taken it from a Trojan film and just nicked
• 16:31
  it. And I think this reconstruction
• 16:33
  was before Airlock came back because like a lot of the
• 16:35
  screenshots they've got all from that little bit of Galaxy 4.
• 16:39
  So you've only got like 3 or 4 sort of angles on piece of
• 16:42
  Purvis and his cardigan? Gotcha.
• 16:45
  But there's a bit, and this is something I got from the Black
• 16:48
  Archive, and I'd never appreciated it apart from one
• 16:50
  they're going. We can't hear what they're
• 16:52
  saying, even though you can actually hear them clearly on
• 16:54
  the scanner is that they're doing what sort of Homer does in
• 16:58
  the poem, which is he's kind of they're talking to each other
• 17:01
  and he's like, they're not fighting, They're kind of
• 17:04
  talking about fighting. It's a verbal.
• 17:06
  Jew. It's a verbal Jew.
• 17:07
  He's sort of sending up kind of the Iliad a little bit there.
• 17:11
  But that was something where it's like, OK, now I get what
• 17:14
  he's doing, but you know, and then so now we're back in the
• 17:20
  studio because when I was listening to it and I think
• 17:22
  they're doing all this. You can't hear, can't you?
• 17:24
  When you. Hear the difference?
• 17:26
  Yeah, for sure. When they come, when this gets
• 17:28
  animated, if this gets animated, it's like it's all going to be
• 17:32
  looking the same, but it's like because I've listened to these
• 17:35
  things so much, we're like, but that's their own location, that
• 17:37
  though they're in studio there because I think one of the bits
• 17:41
  with the Bond of Snowmen I struggled with was like they're
• 17:44
  all standing out on the the hillside, but it sounds like
• 17:46
  they're in was it Lime Grove or whatever?
• 17:49
  Yeah, yeah. I do.
• 17:51
  I wouldn't mind if there was a soundtrack on these things, kind
• 17:53
  of saying we've sort of put some echo or some something that made
• 17:58
  it sound a little more outside so.
• 18:01
  I do think this is right for an animation.
• 18:03
  They could make this look amazing.
• 18:05
  I I. Think because this, this is 1
• 18:07
  where it would you know they could build up the scale and I
• 18:11
  think it would work and they've got a little bit of movement.
• 18:12
  Again, I think they've got Hartnell coming up from
• 18:14
  Toymaker. Wait, Zeus, He's appeared.
• 18:18
  Before us. And then it's like there's the
• 18:21
  the on the cue, dramatic Thunder on cue as well, because they
• 18:24
  will. He he incites Zeus and there's a
• 18:27
  rumble of Thunder. And then he just steps out on
• 18:30
  the TARDIS on cue. And again, perfect timing.
• 18:34
  And then you've got heart being indignant.
• 18:38
  That's good. I'll tell you what, he's loving
• 18:40
  every second. I know he wasn't having a great
• 18:42
  time. Behind the scenes with John
• 18:45
  Wiles, and I know he had an issue with some of the actors
• 18:48
  involved in this and we'll probably get into all of that,
• 18:51
  but you can just hear his comic timing is superb.
• 18:55
  He's liking the wit in this, at least.
• 18:58
  I mean it's the same in time at the same in gunfighters you give
• 19:01
  heart or comedy because he Romans and Romans he had done
• 19:06
  comedy before he'd been in the army game so he he done sitcom.
• 19:09
  So he's somebody who knows how to do comic timing and if you've
• 19:13
  got the especially when he's got the right guest stars as well
• 19:16
  who can respond in the right way in time with him.
• 19:21
  He's absolutely spot on and I think from what I can tell,
• 19:23
  he's, apart from maybe a couple of words he struggles with, he's
• 19:26
  generally quite he's on for me. Yeah, absolutely.
• 19:30
  And this is what the first, this is the first episode of the
• 19:33
  third production block. So he's, you know, they've had
• 19:36
  their rest, they've had their holiday partner's, still got a
• 19:39
  job, unlike some of his Co stars.
• 19:42
  We'll talk about that as well. And.
• 19:45
  But like, it's the characterisation that he's given
• 19:48
  where he has to be wily, you know, because.
• 19:51
  One false movement is going to be murdered even though he.
• 19:53
  Is posing as a great God. And there's a sense he's always
• 19:56
  He's thinking on his feet. He's got to be a bit slippery,
• 19:58
  ain't he? It's great.
• 20:00
  And this is something possible. You know.
• 20:01
  You, you know, by not having the visuals is having his reaction
• 20:04
  to stuff. Because when you do look at
• 20:06
  Romans, you look at time medal and in the gunfighters, A lot of
• 20:10
  the comedies coming from Hartnell's reaction to it.
• 20:13
  And so how much of that's in here?
• 20:15
  I bet there's loads of it. This is one of those stories.
• 20:18
  If we even get a clip from it, it will just be a revelation.
• 20:21
  I think so, yeah, I think so. And, you know, I'm always so
• 20:25
  used to Hartnell being in control of his stories.
• 20:27
  You know, he's like such a an authority figure, but he's
• 20:30
  actually in a position here where he's surrounded by sort of
• 20:33
  movie actors, you know, big names.
• 20:37
  And for once, he's sort of on the back foot.
• 20:40
  What he means is he's almost like improvising it.
• 20:43
  And it's great. He really comes out well.
• 20:46
  He does. And it's almost like possibly
• 20:49
  because of some of the issues, because he was don't struggle
• 20:51
  with his lines and obviously his his, the guest stars had
• 20:56
  noticed. And there's there's a bit coming
• 20:59
  up at me towards the end of this episode where one of the guest
• 21:03
  stars basically made a joke at Hartnell's expense and it went
• 21:06
  down badly. We've just had apparently just
• 21:11
  had a model shop and there was actually a model they built for
• 21:15
  Troy. So it wasn't stock, it was a,
• 21:18
  one source says. It was a glass, a glass shot and
• 21:21
  there was a no, it was an actual model.
• 21:23
  And when I was reading up on this and I hadn't appreciate it,
• 21:26
  and this is we're doing the digging for this, really
• 21:29
  appreciating what they did. So it wasn't just a model they
• 21:32
  took on location and just pointed the camera at, they
• 21:35
  actually did something. I'm going to try and pronounce
• 21:37
  this. It's the shifton process, which
• 21:39
  is a film making thing that went back to the silent era and
• 21:42
  basically involves pointing. A camera is a mirror which is
• 21:47
  reflecting your model, and then you cut a hole in the mirror
• 21:49
  where you can put your actors in the distance.
• 21:51
  And somehow I'll I'll when this goes out, I'll dig out the thing
• 21:55
  that actually helped because when I read about it, I was
• 21:57
  going what, How does that work? And they did that to make the
• 22:01
  city of Troy look like there were people moving around.
• 22:04
  In it. That's a good translate.
• 22:05
  They do it with mirrors. They literally were doing with
• 22:08
  mirrors. And so you know, for what was
• 22:11
  basically what, 15 second shot, I think there may well have been
• 22:14
  a couple of other shots in later episodes.
• 22:16
  They've put in allegedly all this effort to just make it look
• 22:21
  something special, something different, something bold.
• 22:24
  So I think these are, you know what we're losing from not
• 22:28
  having anything from Michael Leeson.
• 22:29
  Smith is where he's putting in, going above and beyond doing
• 22:33
  something extra. I do think there's a lot of that
• 22:35
  in season three. A lot of being bold with visual
• 22:38
  effects and ambitious with direction.
• 22:41
  Things in the arc, things in the war machines, gunfires, Rex
• 22:45
  Tucker's direction in that they're they're pushing the show
• 22:48
  a bit. They're pushing the show and I
• 22:49
  think this is the interesting thing.
• 22:52
  John Wiles and Donald Tosh coming in, looking at the show
• 22:54
  going. So we're going to take it in a
• 22:56
  totally different direction. And as they do, the audience
• 22:59
  appreciation starts to go down. The audience starts to go down.
• 23:03
  And it just kind of got me thinking that when you've got,
• 23:06
  you know, producers come into any series and they go, I know
• 23:11
  what I'm going to do. I'm not going to look at what's
• 23:13
  worked and build on it and understand what the audience
• 23:15
  likes. I'm going to do what I want.
• 23:18
  And then clearly it's certainly in, in Doctor Who's case, the
• 23:20
  audience wasn't. We look at it now going, it's.
• 23:24
  So rich this is like this. Is inventive.
• 23:27
  The massacre. You know, the length of the
• 23:30
  Dalek's mouse. I know they didn't want to do
• 23:32
  that, but I mean, it's bold and it's ambitious.
• 23:35
  And it's quite dark as well. I mean, season three, I mean, at
• 23:40
  the end of this story, Vicki leaves, you know, the regular
• 23:42
  female companion leaves at the end of the story.
• 23:44
  OK, You, Katarina, Sarah, they're not full time.
• 23:48
  It's not until the end of the massacre, which is 16 episodes,
• 23:51
  the, the replacement for Vicki obsensibly comes into it.
• 23:55
  So you've actually got this huge chunk of it where actually the
• 23:58
  the status quo is really thrown up in the air.
• 24:02
  This is a very experimental they wanted to do something different
• 24:06
  and it's it's looking back and it's like stupid audience
• 24:10
  appreciation. You didn't know what you had.
• 24:13
  Unbelievably, you know, it was genuinely mooted, wasn't it?
• 24:16
  That Vicky was to potentially die in the Daleks master plan.
• 24:20
  And I think they got, I don't know how far they've gotten, but
• 24:24
  basically she was in so termination script outline.
• 24:26
  That Vicky slash girl companion got written out then because I
• 24:30
  think even in some of the drafts for this, Vicky left at the end.
• 24:35
  Oh please. She got the ending she did.
• 24:38
  I mean, if nothing else, if she had gone that way, we would have
• 24:40
  had that clip because it would have still probably turned up on
• 24:42
  Lupita, so we'd still would have Vicky's last scene.
• 24:44
  Oh Christ, no. I mean, I love Vicky.
• 24:48
  She has great moments in this. I think she's so fun.
• 24:51
  I I. What's?
• 24:52
  Baffling her is they they they separate her from Hartnell for
• 24:55
  the majority of this story. So we don't have the regular,
• 24:58
  and I know that's all part of the fun of this.
• 24:59
  You've got Vicky on the Greek side and you've got the Doctor
• 25:03
  on the Trojan side and they're basically sort of working
• 25:05
  against each other technically, but it is weird in there in her
• 25:10
  last story. And she stuck inside the TARDIS
• 25:13
  for the first episode. She doesn't leave and she's got
• 25:16
  her, she's got her sprained ankle.
• 25:17
  I mean it'd been this is one of the things of she's got a
• 25:20
  sprained ankle from end of Galaxy 4, which they wrote in so
• 25:23
  that they could explain why she stays inside the TARDIS all
• 25:26
  week. But it's like, is she limping
• 25:28
  when she comes out in, you know, or do they casually just forget
• 25:32
  about it, You know, it's like, you know, she's she's better
• 25:34
  now. Every time you know that that
• 25:38
  Recon springs into life, it's like experiencing your first
• 25:42
  orgasm all over again. It's so exciting.
• 25:45
  Yeah, I mean we've got there's the movement here, we've got
• 25:46
  Stephen putting his cloak on and you can just make out in the
• 25:49
  background. They've got some of it's not
• 25:50
  just the they've got flats photo blow up, but they've also got
• 25:54
  some of the fancy columns and stuff.
• 25:56
  So it's like, OK, they've built a slightly larger Tata set for
• 25:59
  for this. Look at what we're doing.
• 26:02
  Look at the look at the minuscule detail we're trying to
• 26:04
  pull out of these tiny exodus, that move.
• 26:07
  Well, this, this is what fans do.
• 26:09
  We've got. We've got 8 seconds.
• 26:11
  What can we glean from it? We'll never have a life, You
• 26:15
  know, it's overrated. And Francis de Wolfe turning up,
• 26:21
  doing basically the same performance he generally does in
• 26:23
  most of the things I've seen him in, which is.
• 26:25
  I think he's great in this though.
• 26:26
  He is great, I mean, I think. He's he's this here where they
• 26:32
  Because this is real, isn't it, that Helen was abducted by, is
• 26:36
  it by Paris? Oh, she ran off with Paris.
• 26:39
  I think it it it she's a serial adulterous, I think is the
• 26:43
  implication of the script. And it can all be played as like
• 26:45
  the two of them. Like, you know, we we might have
• 26:47
  been here for 10 years, the Army may have been sat over 10 years
• 26:50
  trying to get into Troy, but, you know, we hate them and all
• 26:52
  this. No.
• 26:53
  Instead is it Melanius? Is that how he's saying
• 26:56
  Menelius? Menelius is like, Oh yeah, I'm
• 27:00
  not really that bothered, really.
• 27:02
  It plays like a modern day sitcom, doesn't it?
• 27:04
  He just wants to go home. It's Francis the Wolf's
• 27:08
  character. Now you got to help me with the
• 27:10
  names. What's his name?
• 27:12
  Achilles. Me to say it because I I'm like
• 27:13
  how? Is that Akamend?
• 27:17
  Agamemnon, Cindy. Because I'm thinking about it
• 27:19
  too much. He's.
• 27:19
  The one that's determined to fight and get in and tear the
• 27:22
  walls down, isn't he? But only in the because they're
• 27:26
  kind of committed to it. It's I think Odysseus is the
• 27:28
  only one who actually really wants to be there, and that's
• 27:32
  IVA Salter, who last saw in the Space Museum, Space Museum.
• 27:36
  And the Zafra gas will take care of them.
• 27:39
  Have any of our arms been taken by individual?
• 27:42
  On hands. No, no actor can make that line
• 27:46
  work. But he's quite.
• 27:48
  And The thing is, he's quite. Stilted in that he's he's great
• 27:51
  in this. Having a ball in this one.
• 27:53
  I think everyone knows the talent that's here.
• 27:55
  They're always in their game and.
• 27:57
  I think because it's it's an historical script.
• 28:00
  It's they if they've not done it before, they've done they'll
• 28:03
  have done Shakespeare, they'll have done period pieces so they
• 28:06
  know what they're working with. I think it's like you're
• 28:09
  Odysseus, you're here to destroy Troy.
• 28:11
  OK, I can get on board with that.
• 28:13
  You're. I don't think he even has a name
• 28:15
  in the Space Museum. He's just more a commander or
• 28:18
  something the. Commander Yeah.
• 28:21
  And you just have to go around saying these bizarre, yeah, talk
• 28:24
  about Zafra gas and all of that. So this is so much more
• 28:28
  relatable. But I'm like, do you know, I
• 28:30
  don't even need the regulars to turn up in this?
• 28:32
  This is great fun, this. They're talking about Helen
• 28:35
  being a total slag, you know, going up with all these men.
• 28:39
  I'm like, am I watching Doctor Who?
• 28:41
  Really. And this is the sort of stuff
• 28:44
  that now I'll be like, no, probably because the inferences
• 28:47
  of what they're saying and everything, because it's all and
• 28:49
  Helen doesn't appear. Helen is off screen.
• 28:51
  Yeah, she does appear in the book.
• 28:53
  And she was. I think they originally planned
• 28:56
  for her to be in it in the, I think in Cotton, in Cotton's
• 28:59
  first outline, she's possibly in it.
• 29:01
  I'm now struggling to remember, but they basically write out any
• 29:04
  other female characters other than Cassandra.
• 29:07
  They said nobody could possibly ham it up more than Francis
• 29:11
  White. In this she is dare you.
• 29:14
  Jeez, as with just having such a good time and I think I can't
• 29:19
  remember his name, the guy playing Achilles as well, who's
• 29:21
  doing it so earnestly and it's like it also is incredibly posh.
• 29:26
  It really is. It sounds like he's just stepped
• 29:28
  out of Eaton. I did think though.
• 29:30
  I see. I did enjoy episode one.
• 29:32
  I thought it was a great thing. Set out and it thrust the
• 29:34
  Doctor. Into a really tricky.
• 29:36
  Situation very fast. I preferred Episode 2 when we
• 29:40
  went over to the Greek camp because that whole family drama
• 29:43
  that plays out there is just glorious.
• 29:46
  And all the characters and all the actors, everyone's sort of
• 29:50
  at their comic high there. And you, they're all playing
• 29:54
  different types as well, but they're all working out with
• 29:57
  each other as opposed to against each other.
• 29:59
  And only the Trojans have found the TARDIS on what's going to
• 30:04
  happen. I think there was some cut
• 30:06
  scenes where they were going to have Vicki inside and there was
• 30:09
  going to she's going to fall on the console and how she deemed
• 30:11
  me to. They were going to make a bit
• 30:12
  more of a thing of it. And I was like, actually, it's
• 30:13
  probably better. They didn't.
• 30:15
  The only downside is it meant that Maureen O'Brien I think is
• 30:17
  done for the week. They did some great things for
• 30:20
  the TARDIS and this, don't they? The the whole bit of the Doctor
• 30:23
  going, Oh yes, you know, let me and I'll take this boy to the to
• 30:27
  the my temple and then you'll see a magic trick and then
• 30:30
  obviously it's gone. And again, he's thinking on his
• 30:32
  feet. That's that's the great thing
• 30:33
  about it. It's like, OK, I'm in this
• 30:36
  situation. I need to get away from
• 30:38
  Achilles. Oh, no, OK, I've been taking
• 30:39
  biodies. I need to get away from it.
• 30:42
  And that's his constant thing of like, how basic can I bugger
• 30:44
  off? Because he know, he knows where
• 30:46
  he is, he knows what's going on and it's like it's time to go.
• 30:49
  If he's having any trouble at all working with these actors,
• 30:52
  then I can't tell because all these lines risk and you know
• 30:55
  how you treat your gods is very shoddy, you know, it's great.
• 30:59
  And we're now at the scene, which I think according to
• 31:03
  legend couldn't. I think piece of Purpose tells
• 31:04
  the story is that I think the line is do sit down and have a
• 31:09
  ham bone. But the first is line.
• 31:12
  So Francis to Wolf says do sit down ham, and have a bone.
• 31:19
  Oh, bless him. And I believe that meant that
• 31:22
  forced to retake. And I mean that takes, that
• 31:27
  takes some balls. Basically, he's the star of the
• 31:29
  show. It's his show.
• 31:30
  You're the guest in his show and you're taking the piss.
• 31:33
  Yeah, and you know, and he's lost William Russell, Jackie
• 31:37
  Hill, Caroline Ford, Verity Lambert.
• 31:39
  He's not surrounded by allies anymore, so he's already on age.
• 31:43
  And he and I think he's starting, this is when he's
• 31:46
  starting to you know be more and well he's struggling a bit more
• 31:49
  with his line or you know trying to remember his lines.
• 31:52
  So for you, not only for one of your guest stars basically to
• 31:55
  send you up in front of the crew, but also pick on something
• 31:59
  that you're probably quite self-conscious about, which is,
• 32:02
  I cannot remember my my dialogue, which is for an actor,
• 32:05
  is. That's.
• 32:08
  His job. And so the fact that you can't,
• 32:13
  you can't pick up on that. Again, maybe in the visuals you
• 32:16
  might be able to see, you know, kind of the rage behind his
• 32:18
  eyes, but that would then would probably work for this scene
• 32:21
  because he's thinking, honestly, he's trying to get out of this
• 32:24
  situation. So how much of it would be?
• 32:26
  Oh no, it's just acting. It's like, no, he's in a foul
• 32:28
  mood. I think he just got whacked by a
• 32:30
  camera at one point. As well, Yeah, that, Yeah, they
• 32:32
  said that happened here as well. Do you know what?
• 32:34
  I think Hartnell was a troubling character.
• 32:37
  I think he had some problematic opinions and things, but
• 32:43
  regardless of all of that, yeah, he delivers.
• 32:46
  He always delivers, even when he's not at his best like I've.
• 32:50
  There are other stories where he's fluffing all the time.
• 32:52
  Space Museum. I just think he's hilarious.
• 32:55
  I can't keep my eyes off him. I think the one, the, the
• 32:58
  performance that really surprised me recently is when
• 33:02
  did you look at Ted's planet because he's basically what he's
• 33:05
  come back basically to get written out and he's barely in
• 33:09
  it or certainly with huge chunks, he's barely in it and
• 33:11
  then he's off I'll for a week and it's like actually he's
• 33:14
  pretty word perfect on the script.
• 33:17
  And actually this is because we're missing episode four.
• 33:19
  I think he gives for the scenes he is in his final episode, He
• 33:23
  actually gives some really strong moments.
• 33:26
  So I think this thing of like, oh, the smugglers is the last
• 33:29
  time he shines. It's like.
• 33:31
  No. I don't.
• 33:33
  I don't agree, I think. Emotion.
• 33:35
  Love. Hate.
• 33:36
  Fear. Have you no emotions, Sir?
• 33:39
  Absolutely spot on with that. Thank you.
• 33:41
  I'm sorry. If you know about me then.
• 33:46
  But yeah, he he, he tries. I think that's where he got
• 33:48
  irascible because he was trying. He was always trying to give a
• 33:50
  good performance and sometimes the dialogue and sometimes there
• 33:55
  is dialogue in some of these shows.
• 33:56
  I love these shows, but there is dialogue that no actor can can
• 34:00
  make work. I think this period that it's
• 34:03
  not as bad as it gets sometimes in the 70s and 80s.
• 34:06
  Oh, for sure. Yeah.
• 34:08
  And this is quite this is a very intelligent script.
• 34:11
  I think we're going to probably keep saying how this is, this
• 34:14
  something for all the actors to get their teeth into literally,
• 34:17
  because certainly for Odysseus. Is.
• 34:24
  True in the scenery when we get to the cliffhanger.
• 34:27
  Let's not forget how tough this sort of is, that the situation
• 34:31
  that Donald Cotton's put himself in is to take hold of this myth
• 34:36
  and beat it into a four part Doctor Who story with moments of
• 34:40
  tension and comedy and things like that.
• 34:43
  And give all the regulars something to do and write one of
• 34:46
  them out at the end. Like it's a really.
• 34:48
  And educate people on the myth as well and sort of be playful
• 34:52
  and mischievous with it. I mean I think Donald Cotton
• 34:56
  does 2 scripts and I I'm I'm one of those people who likes the
• 34:58
  gunfighters I I think. Love the.
• 35:01
  Gunfighters he he writes comedy so well and he writes in the
• 35:05
  Doctor Who setting well, and then this is his first story.
• 35:08
  He was, I think he was more of a radio writer and I hate this
• 35:12
  kind of sometimes that comes across when people are talking
• 35:14
  about stuff rather than action being on screen, but that's
• 35:17
  sometimes also the limitation of your your budget.
• 35:19
  Well, I think if you're a radio writer, you're aware of the
• 35:22
  power of dialogue as well. So he does make the Lions count.
• 35:27
  I think every single bit of dialogue counts it.
• 35:30
  It's moving the story on and then you've got Stevens now
• 35:34
  captured and and now oh he's one of the one he's one of the other
• 35:40
  gods and obviously it's oh. Diomedy.
• 35:44
  Oh, that's the name. That's the name he I think he is
• 35:46
  he Apollo. And he says, oh look, it's the
• 35:48
  it's the God Apollo, because he's again forcing the doctor to
• 35:52
  think on his feet. Pervis Pervis is very pretty,
• 35:55
  but I don't know if he's Apollo, you know?
• 35:58
  You might think he is. You've seen Apollo in the
• 36:00
  reimagined battle star Galactica, yes?
• 36:03
  Oh, he's gorgeous. Sorry.
• 36:05
  Moving on. It's better than Apollo in Star
• 36:08
  Trek. Wearing his loincloth.
• 36:09
  Oh no. Yeah, hideous.
• 36:14
  And so and there's a lot of long scenes as well in in in Next and
• 36:18
  it's all very dialogue heavy and normally that's the sort of
• 36:22
  thing that you know we would yeah people criticize Billy not
• 36:25
  to who for it's long drawn out scenes.
• 36:27
  It's lots of people in rooms talking.
• 36:29
  But when you've got comic timing and you've got this rich, you
• 36:34
  know back and forth as well, it just works.
• 36:38
  And 25 minutes flies. Past I love the language.
• 36:42
  I've got such a hard on for the English language and when it is
• 36:45
  utilized as exquisitely as it is here, I don't care about how
• 36:50
  long the scenes are. It's I feel the same way about
• 36:52
  midnight. There's a 20 minute scene in
• 36:54
  Midnight and the dialogue is just so on the money and the
• 36:59
  characterization and the accent. I don't care.
• 37:02
  I like. I'm just like, yeah, I can be as
• 37:05
  thrilled watching this as any high budget Marvel movie.
• 37:09
  I would probably sit and watch a reconstruction over the Marvel
• 37:12
  TV. It's certainly the Marvel TV
• 37:13
  shows. I find them quite interminally
• 37:15
  dull. It's like, because you've got
• 37:17
  all the effects. I still sound, I'm sounding like
• 37:21
  I'm old man, they've got all the effects, but they haven't got.
• 37:24
  I mean I watched Mandalorian Matter of Star Wars and I'm
• 37:27
  like, I don't care because there's no interesting dialogue
• 37:31
  in this. There's no, it's in the one
• 37:33
  episode I watched. I know there's probably more,
• 37:35
  but it's like you haven't hooked me.
• 37:37
  You haven't hooked me at all. Because this character, the mask
• 37:40
  on, and it's all very functional dialogue and you need something
• 37:44
  a bit of life, a bit of characterization, a bit of drama
• 37:47
  to it. But you know, I just watched the
• 37:51
  star based Wobbly, Yonder and The Giggle.
• 37:53
  I loved all of them. Yeah, absolutely adored them.
• 37:56
  And so I'm a big fan of modern television.
• 37:58
  I like it fast. I like it.
• 37:59
  It's stylish and expensive. I thought, oh God, now I've got
• 38:02
  to go and watch a Recon of The Myth Makers and I was more
• 38:06
  gripped watching these still pictures with this fabulous
• 38:10
  script more gripped than any of those specials.
• 38:14
  And and that's just because I, I it was such a rich piece.
• 38:19
  It was. It was so the the the myth
• 38:21
  they're exploring was so interesting and I was just like,
• 38:24
  and it's just really, really fucking funny.
• 38:27
  It is genuinely and comedy in Doctor Who is hard because.
• 38:31
  It goes one of two ways, doesn't it?
• 38:34
  It works or it doesn't? Go on then give me an example of
• 38:38
  it working that's not this. There's a lot in There's the
• 38:43
  Romans. I think it lands really well.
• 38:45
  I mean, don't listen to behind the sofa on the Blu-ray.
• 38:48
  Who would just say, oh comet, it didn't work going well.
• 38:50
  You clearly watched a different story than I did because I
• 38:52
  thought the Romans comedy landed well.
• 38:55
  I think it works well in gun fighters.
• 38:58
  Oh, me too. Me too.
• 38:59
  I. Think the ballad, which
• 39:00
  everybody hates, actually is parodying the story at times,
• 39:05
  and it's sending it up. And there's lines in the ballad
• 39:09
  tying in with what's going on to it or sending up and I thought.
• 39:11
  It. This is really well thought
• 39:13
  through and it and and Hartnell has some great bits in.
• 39:19
  There's a whole bit in is it Holiday for the Doctor where
• 39:21
  they keep Doc Holiday gives them the gun and they tried to get in
• 39:25
  the gun back and he keeps getting pushed back and forth
• 39:27
  between Kate and Doc Holiday and it's like the timing of that.
• 39:30
  It's critical. Joe, what?
• 39:32
  Hartle says. How do we proceed?
• 39:34
  He's got the gun on them. It's hilarious.
• 39:38
  It is hilarious. And I think this is the thing.
• 39:41
  When people talk about Hartnall, the 1st Doctor, it's always, oh,
• 39:43
  he's crotchety and he's grumpy and it's like he is but you
• 39:47
  missed, you missed the humour and I think that's like when I
• 39:51
  don't, for me didn't work him twice upon a time and everything
• 39:54
  like that. I don't think you got the
• 39:55
  twinkle and and and the comic timing.
• 39:59
  Even in the five doctors they, you know, I think Hoda did a
• 40:03
  great job but. He's working with a script that
• 40:06
  essentially makes him a bossy old man.
• 40:08
  And that's the Terence Dicks effect, because I think Terence
• 40:12
  Dicks always kind of wrote First Doctor as slightly grumpy and
• 40:16
  irascible when I, you know, listen to, you know, listen to
• 40:19
  some of the target books and stuff like that.
• 40:21
  I'm always amazed, especially with when it's first Dr. Ian and
• 40:24
  Barbara, of how much they're characterized, that they
• 40:26
  genuinely don't seem to like each other.
• 40:29
  Some of those target books, I think there's suggestions at
• 40:32
  times that I think Ian's going to lamp the doctor a couple of
• 40:35
  times. You miss all those bits, don't
• 40:37
  you? Like where Jackie Hill brushes
• 40:38
  down his lapels and things like that, you know, and.
• 40:40
  There's that bit at the start of the Reign of Terror where
• 40:42
  they're charming him. Oh yeah, I.
• 40:46
  Suppose that he actually, I think that's when she's
• 40:47
  brushing. And he's there touches lapels
• 40:49
  going, oh, all right, you know I'll come and.
• 40:53
  I think I can't remember how that goes in the book and I
• 40:55
  think I think it's near Marta book as well.
• 40:57
  But it's like it's all more probably how it was in the
• 41:00
  script where you've because obviously at that point you
• 41:02
  probably couldn't have watched it.
• 41:03
  So they have to go just on the script and therefore it's, oh,
• 41:06
  it's a bit grumpy and a bit, see, he's grumpier than this.
• 41:10
  The Doctor is, you know, but that's part of the story.
• 41:14
  Yes, Well, he's in an impossible situation.
• 41:17
  He's facing a sword in the face. If he doesn't get this entire
• 41:20
  army across the walls, you know. He's got to go and deliver a
• 41:23
  miracle on the plains in the morning.
• 41:26
  And the ideas he comes up with, I mean, we'll get there, but
• 41:29
  they're absolutely bloody absurd, aren't they?
• 41:31
  You just mentioned the book, you know?
• 41:33
  And before we out episode one, would you mind if I regaled you
• 41:36
  with a small passage from Donald Cotton's superlative
• 41:40
  novelisation of this story? Well, if we're not going to do
• 41:43
  it here now, it'd be a bit pointless to it anywhere else.
• 41:45
  That's true, right? Go right ahead.
• 41:47
  Oh, I'll add it to the Underworld episodes as I'm
• 41:49
  bringing them out. No, I won't.
• 41:50
  I won't. So.
• 41:52
  It's it's all told from the point of view of Homer, right?
• 41:55
  So there's implication in the book is that Homer was there and
• 42:00
  he's sort of, he's got a way in and out crossing the lines.
• 42:03
  So that's how he's able to see both sides of the story.
• 42:05
  He's like, oh, I think I've seen enough of this part of the
• 42:08
  story. Now I'm going to go back over to
• 42:09
  the Trojans and see what's going on there.
• 42:11
  And so he does this quite a bit. But boy oh boy.
• 42:14
  I mean, if you think the script is bawdy and borderline adult,
• 42:21
  the book something. Else like if there are a lot of
• 42:25
  references to alcoholism and sex and it.
• 42:29
  He's just not interested in doing that script to book like
• 42:33
  Terrance Dix. You know give you what was on
• 42:37
  the TV. He wants to write an actual
• 42:40
  novel of what he did and it is the prose is superb.
• 42:44
  Or here's a good example. OK, he this is how he.
• 42:47
  Deals with the thorny subject of time travel.
• 42:50
  You ready? And this is all from Homer's
• 42:51
  point of view, he says. That's well, if he didn't dream
• 42:59
  of doing it soon, I'd never think it up at all.
• 43:02
  So he's talking about the Doctor coming up with the.
• 43:04
  Ideas. So homework could then take the
• 43:06
  ideas off him and write, write them down and they go into
• 43:10
  mythology. I could have told him that there
• 43:13
  and then. That's one of the troubles with
• 43:14
  time travel. You see, the Doctor was always
• 43:16
  so anxious not to alter the course of history by meddling
• 43:21
  that he sometimes didn't realise history couldn't happen if he
• 43:24
  didn't give it a helping hand. Every now and again one sees the
• 43:27
  dangers, of course Get it wrong and the whole of the future
• 43:29
  could be altered. And if you alter the future too
• 43:32
  much, you're very you might very likely not get a chance to exist
• 43:35
  in it yourself if you follow me. I suppose that's why in later
• 43:39
  years he always preferred to go forward rather than backwards in
• 43:42
  time, so that whatever happened, he couldn't wipe himself clean
• 43:46
  off the slate by accident. But the trick is don't play
• 43:49
  giddy goat. Just apply to the history books
• 43:52
  for instructions and then get on with it.
• 43:54
  And since, apparently I'd have written one myself before too
• 43:57
  long, all he had to do was what I told him, and I couldn't wait
• 44:01
  to hear what that was. I soon learned, however, I must
• 44:04
  say I was tempted to agree with him.
• 44:06
  The whole idea was preposterous. I just thought that was such a
• 44:10
  sublime way of just covering everything.
• 44:14
  And so different from you know the standard target.
• 44:18
  You know it's just dialogue what he said, she said and like that
• 44:23
  I read time don't ask where I read time flight a few weeks ago
• 44:26
  and that is just so just the script the the the two.
• 44:31
  You know Donald can't do three. He did the Romans as well, which
• 44:34
  isn't one of his scripts. And each of those three he finds
• 44:38
  a different way of telling the story.
• 44:42
  The gunfighters I struggle a bit with because it's the read, the
• 44:44
  reading on the audiobook. I find Shane Rimmers reading a
• 44:48
  bit difficult to listen to. Stephen Thorne doing The Myth
• 44:51
  Makers. It's been a while since I
• 44:52
  listened to it. I just remember being like he
• 44:55
  sells, being home, being the part of Homer so well, he's
• 44:59
  he's, he's not just reading, he's performing.
• 45:01
  Now I have to give that a listen.
• 45:03
  But just the nerve of him to put in that passage, Yeah.
• 45:06
  Look, Doctor, will you hurry up and have the ideas please, so I
• 45:09
  could take those ideas off you, write them down and give you the
• 45:12
  ideas like. My head's spinning, but it's
• 45:16
  very funny. Such a It's a clever script.
• 45:20
  It's a clever book. It's a very clever book.
• 45:22
  Well, look, let's skip on into episode 2 then, and go and pay a
• 45:27
  visit to the Greeks, shall we? Troy, we're going to Troy.
• 45:31
  Yes, beware of Greeks. Oh no.
• 45:35
  It's the Trojans, isn't it? Yeah.
• 45:37
  Oh, so sorry. So it shows you how much I've
• 45:39
  been paying attention. And beware of Greeks bearing
• 45:42
  gifts. Well, not until the end of
• 45:44
  episode 3. Especially that dreadful,
• 45:46
  tortured episode that was called that.
• 45:47
  Do you remember that? Oh God, is that the one with?
• 45:51
  Oh, OK, yeah. It's the one with from
• 45:52
  EastEnders, isn't it? Oh, she gets a bit lesbian,
• 45:55
  doesn't she? In that one, yeah.
• 45:57
  Anyway. Torch Torchwood does earshot
• 46:01
  from Buffy, basically, but badly.