Latest / WriterCon / This is a Job for...Superman Writer Elliot S! Maggin

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This is a Job for...Superman Writer Elliot S! Maggin · WriterCon

• 0:03
  Speaker 1: This week on the writer Com podcast.
• 0:06
  Speaker 2: Go through your first draft and cross out all the
• 0:08
  Speaker 2: adjectives and advoluves them out.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Welcome to writer Con, a gathering place for writers to
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: share their knowledge about writing and the writing world. Do
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: you have a desire to write? Every successful writer started
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: with their first book. All it takes is determination and knowledge,
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: and writer Con can provide that knowledge. Your hosts are
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: number one national best selling writer William Bernhardt, author of
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: more than sixty books, including The Superman Wars, and Laura Bernhardt,
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  Speaker 1: award winning author of the Wantlon File series and Shadow
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: of the taj.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: W Thank you, Jesse Ulrich, Hey their writers, Thanks for
• 0:48
  Speaker 3: joining us today, Laura. Last time in the intros segment,
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: we talked about what Jesse and I have been doing lately. Bo.
• 0:58
  Speaker 3: What about you? What have you done? Lee? Oh?
• 1:01
  Speaker 4: Well, actually, I had the opportunity to go up to
• 1:04
  Speaker 4: New York City. I was on a quick weekend trip
• 1:08
  Speaker 4: with a couple of my sisters. We met up with
• 1:10
  Speaker 4: our youngest daughter, Madelin. We had a fantastic time. We
• 1:13
  Speaker 4: saw several shows and it was only mildly inhibited by
• 1:19
  Speaker 4: the fact that it also coincided with the unseasonably cold
• 1:25
  Speaker 4: arctic blast that blew through the East coast, so we
• 1:29
  Speaker 4: were very cold, but we had a great time, nonetheless.
• 1:34
  Speaker 4: And then I had the opportunity to speak to the
• 1:37
  Speaker 4: Norman Galaxy of Writers a few weeks ago, actually it
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: was on Valentine's Day, and I talked about the heart
• 1:44
  Speaker 4: of your story. Great group of people. Really had a
• 1:49
  Speaker 4: fantastic time, and.
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  Speaker 3: I thoroughly enjoyed it. They thought you were terrific, and
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: actually you were speaking on getting the heart of your story.
• 2:02
  Speaker 3: Fantastic talk. All right. I am very excited about our
• 2:07
  Speaker 3: interview today with the one and only Elliott S. Magan.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: Elliott is the author of several novels and even more
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: comic books. He was one of the premier writers for
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: my favorite hero, Superman, back in the seventies, and then
• 2:24
  Speaker 3: he wrote some Superman novels that were released in conjunction
• 2:27
  Speaker 3: with the Christopher Reeve movies. His stories were a major
• 2:31
  Speaker 3: influence on the character and have also been referenced in
• 2:35
  Speaker 3: the movies. He has also worked in the worlds of
• 2:38
  Speaker 3: gaming as a writer and made some forays into the
• 2:42
  Speaker 3: world of politics, and we will talk to him about
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  Speaker 3: all that and much more. But first, the news news
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  Speaker 3: story Number one D and F shelves are coming to Goodreads.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: And just in case you didn't know, because I had
• 3:10
  Speaker 3: to look it up, DNF means did not finish. And
• 3:14
  Speaker 3: this is on good Reads, where people often post reviews
• 3:18
  Speaker 3: of what they're reading and rank it. And you know,
• 3:22
  Speaker 3: I guess instead of just saying I liked it or
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: I didn't like it, you could admit that you just
• 3:27
  Speaker 3: didn't finish. So maybe you shouldn't be rating it since
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: you know you didn't finish it. Anyway, we've all been there, right,
• 3:37
  Speaker 3: You've bought more books than you can read. There's another
• 3:41
  Speaker 3: one coming up that looks pretty yummy, and you just
• 3:45
  Speaker 3: skip ahead and do the other one. In fact, but
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: I've noticed that, even though I have never wanted or
• 3:53
  Speaker 3: meant for this to happen, Goodreads is automatically tracking anything
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: I read on my kindle, you know, because it's all
• 4:00
  Speaker 3: the Amazon family. So I'll go to good Reads, you know,
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: for book purposes every now and see Bill is currently reading,
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: and it knows even if it's something that I opened
• 4:15
  Speaker 3: and looked at and said, nah, I'm not going to
• 4:16
  Speaker 3: read that, it looks like that's what you're writing. Reading now,
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: in least until you start something else. So apparently now
• 4:24
  Speaker 3: you can mark a book D NF, which means I
• 4:28
  Speaker 3: don't know anythink that it wasn't as good as you
• 4:31
  Speaker 3: hoped it would be, or it was kind of slow starting,
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: or something like that. It's an alternative to giving an
• 4:38
  Speaker 3: actual review or rating, Laura, does this seem like a
• 4:41
  Speaker 3: good idea to you? Seems like a.
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  Speaker 4: Better alternative than giving a poor review. I have read
• 4:49
  Speaker 4: quite a few reviews where the reviewer will say things like,
• 4:54
  Speaker 4: just couldn't finish, it wasn't good and it absolutely would
• 4:58
  Speaker 4: dissuade me from even trying a book. And that could
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: be good, could be bad. What if? What if that
• 5:05
  Speaker 4: book would have appealed to me more than that, Peter?
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  Speaker 4: Because we all like different things, So that's I think
• 5:10
  Speaker 4: it could be good. I I'm trying to think if
• 5:15
  Speaker 4: I have what if I've actually committed to a book
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  Speaker 4: and started reading it. I don't know that I ever
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: didn't finish, which seriously might be a character flaw. Sometimes
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  Speaker 4: I will.
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  Speaker 3: Don't you say that?
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  Speaker 4: Sometimes I just stick with it because I I just
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  Speaker 4: I don't know. I feel like I have to kind
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  Speaker 4: of know where it goes and usually if I'm not
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  Speaker 4: liking it halfway through, by the end, I'm still like, nah,
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  Speaker 4: it just didn't come back for me.
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  Speaker 3: So you gotta know, you gotta know how they again,
• 5:42
  Speaker 3: still gotta know.
• 5:43
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I think it would just weigh on me.
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  Speaker 3: Started the last paragraph, finish it.
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: And I think I I've told the listeners might know
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: this because I feel like I tell the story because
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: it's the only book I started and that did not finish,
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: which was the second of Stephen King's The Dark Tower Book.
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: I can't remember which one of the second one is called,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: but the beginning is just so I don't know, weird
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: and boring that I was like, you know what, Like
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: I I'm very patient with authors. I'm like, I will
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: read incredibly long books that are multiple you know. Uh again,
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: I've read The Wheel of Time more than once, and
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: that book and that book that's got that's got some,
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: there's some there's there's entire books that are just like ugh,
• 6:25
  Speaker 1: but like there are small enough parts and interesting things
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: to keep me together. And but that one Stephen King
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: book just like rubbed me the wrong way and I
• 6:32
  Speaker 1: just stopped. But I'd usually finish every other book, so
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: it would be interesting to be like on my thing,
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: being like, this is the one book he didn't finish,
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: you know, read it your own.
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  Speaker 3: Uh finish? I just thought, did you skip ahead to
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  Speaker 3: book three? No?
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: I asked a friend how it ended, and he was
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: like disappointment. And I was like, all right, I never
• 6:49
  Speaker 1: went back.
• 6:50
  Speaker 3: I'm not going to.
• 6:51
  Speaker 4: Say the title. I actually do have one that I.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: Didn't Yeah, yeah, I was I going to say.
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: The title because I don't want to. I don't want
• 6:58
  Speaker 4: to set off a bunch of people missed.
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: Nice person.
• 7:00
  Speaker 4: I read the first one, the second one I will.
• 7:04
  Speaker 4: I ran and grabbed the second one. I started reading it,
• 7:06
  Speaker 4: and I was like, what the heck?
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: No, Ken Ken Good read to add a category of
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: like won't even pick up like we all know who
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: would be on that.
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: Lets me James Patterson. Oh but this recalls to me, Laura.
• 7:22
  Speaker 3: I've shown you this on Amazon. You're remember it's for
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: my young reader's book, Equal Justice. But there's a review
• 7:30
  Speaker 3: there that says I did not mean to buy this book.
• 7:34
  Speaker 3: I bought it by accident, so I didn't read it.
• 7:36
  Speaker 3: One star. Well, we didn't even read it might have
• 7:41
  Speaker 3: been better. Okay. News story number two, a new genre
• 7:47
  Speaker 3: has appeared on the literary horizon. It's called solar punk.
• 7:53
  Speaker 3: So solar punk because maybe I'm not the only person
• 7:59
  Speaker 3: who doesn't know any these terms, but I didn't know
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: this one either. It poses a fascinating question, what would
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: a world that had seriously tackled climate change look like?
• 8:11
  Speaker 3: Writer Adam Flynn wrote, And this is a quote where
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: silar punks because the only other options are denial or despair.
• 8:19
  Speaker 3: End quote. Act artists and activists have needed to envision
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: ways to make life more wonderful for us right now,
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: he continued to say, and more importantly, for the generations
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: that follows us. Well, it turns out that there are
• 8:37
  Speaker 3: a lot of science fiction writers who are deeply concerned
• 8:40
  Speaker 3: about climate and are particularly worry We're weary of science
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: fiction tendency toward dystopian futures or post a apocalyptic yuckiness,
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  Speaker 3: nightmares and all. So they wanted to create art that
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: pointed a way forward, which I have to admit I
• 9:02
  Speaker 3: really like. So they set about creating fictional worlds that
• 9:06
  Speaker 3: present a sustainable, sustainable future. So we have books like
• 9:11
  Speaker 3: Corey doctor O's The Lost Cause and bl Blanchard's book
• 9:16
  Speaker 3: the Peacekeeper. Jesse, you are our resident science fiction expert.
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  Speaker 3: Have you read Solar Punk? Well?
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  Speaker 4: I have.
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  Speaker 1: Before it was term solar punk, but it's every Star
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: Trek novel I've ever read.
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  Speaker 3: That is a positive future.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I learn to.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: Deal with climate change in the Trek universe.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: So a lot of times they what they do is
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: you know, this is like Star Trek's model when they run.
• 9:40
  Speaker 3: Into an actual answer to this question, but yeah, please continue.
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: No, I mean like they always run into either cultures
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: that are like farther behind than humanity or whatever as
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: a metaphor for times in humanity's you know history, when
• 9:54
  Speaker 1: we did we did and continue to do something stupid.
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: So yeah, like you know, all of you know, the
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: earth of the Star Trek future is one that fixed
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: the climate right, and fixed poverty and fixed racism and
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: fixed all these things. And it's a and they still
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: find ways to tell dramatic stories in that universe.
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: I love this.
• 10:14
  Speaker 1: I don't need to read another Mad Max esque Hunger
• 10:17
  Speaker 1: Games type. I mean there are good ones, but like,
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: if you're not telling us, if you're not showing us
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: what we could do to fix it, and just showing
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: what's going to be wrong. That is after a while
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: just gets very draining. So I'm all for this is great.
• 10:31
  Speaker 1: I'm glad it's a great term. I love a good
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: marketing term.
• 10:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, anything to add.
• 10:41
  Speaker 4: It does sound appealing to me. I'm one of those
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: people weary of the dystopian post apocalyptic outcomes. I like
• 10:50
  Speaker 4: the idea of something positive and makes me think about
• 10:57
  Speaker 4: We watched Arco last night, and this would almost qualify
• 11:01
  Speaker 4: because they were showing uh, like Jesse was describing in
• 11:05
  Speaker 4: the Star Trek books, we visited a time when things
• 11:08
  Speaker 4: weren't good, but we also got a glimpse of a
• 11:11
  Speaker 4: better future. Now. They did not dive into what happened
• 11:15
  Speaker 4: to make it better, but it just sometimes you want
• 11:18
  Speaker 4: to get there uplifting and encouraging outcome and ending. I think,
• 11:26
  Speaker 4: and I do think, I'm actually intrigued. I think I'm
• 11:28
  Speaker 4: going to look some of that.
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: Ups has joined the podcast. I mean they got her
• 11:36
  Speaker 3: cut to Craft Corner except Craft Corner This time is coming.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: Manager is here? Yeah from my co host, the one
• 11:46
  Speaker 3: and only lovely Laura. You don't want to be lovely,
• 11:49
  Speaker 3: but I need alliteration, the laudable Laura or the Jesse
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: help me out here the I like, lovely, laudable Laura, Well,
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: do them all anyway our own Laura Burnhardt. You remember
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: that fantastic talk we talked about at the top of
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: this episode, Well, I asked her if she could condense
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: that to three minutes, and of course she did so.
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: Here is the shorter version of getting to the heart
• 12:20
  Speaker 3: of the story craft quorder.
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: Let's talk today about ensuring that your story engages your
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: reader's hearts. Balancing logic and emotion can be really tricky.
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: As writers, we rely on the left side of our
• 12:39
  Speaker 4: brain for the logical parts of writing, plotting, outlining, making
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: sure that our story is going to adhere to prescriptive
• 12:48
  Speaker 4: grammar rules and style guide requirements. Then we get to
• 12:53
  Speaker 4: let the creative side have fun when we're diving in
• 12:56
  Speaker 4: and developing that story. Likewise, our characters need to behave
• 13:02
  Speaker 4: in ways that are both believable meaning logically, but also emotionally.
• 13:09
  Speaker 4: And we all know what happens when our emotions get
• 13:12
  Speaker 4: the best of us and we get carried away. So
• 13:15
  Speaker 4: when you're building your character, you want to make sure
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: that they are also messy, reflecting that human ex experience.
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: Readers are going to connect to your story through your protagonist.
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: That means that the readers need to like your main
• 13:31
  Speaker 4: character and feel something for them. While we're constructing our characters,
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: we use that analytical left side of our brains. We
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: need to choose a character who will be perfect for
• 13:42
  Speaker 4: the story, not just a random idea that we had,
• 13:45
  Speaker 4: but a character who has a needed skill or who
• 13:48
  Speaker 4: needs to resolve something and will be absolutely integra integrally
• 13:53
  Speaker 4: linked with the story. But then how do we make
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: sure that they are likable? Our readers need to be
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: invested in what our characters want and want to see
• 14:05
  Speaker 4: them succeed. We want our protagonists to feel like a friend,
• 14:10
  Speaker 4: someone that you want to spend time with. How can
• 14:13
  Speaker 4: we do that? Our characters can be kind, clever, especially talented, admirable,
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: maybe committed to a cause, fighting for justice. Think about
• 14:25
  Speaker 4: what you like in a person. Maybe they inspire you
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: or make you laugh or make your life better in
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: some way. That's what we want our readers to feel
• 14:34
  Speaker 4: about our characters. Characters could also be the victim of circumstance,
• 14:39
  Speaker 4: suffering from an illness, or being mistreated or abused in
• 14:43
  Speaker 4: some way. But I need to make sure to add
• 14:46
  Speaker 4: that the character always needs to have agency. That is
• 14:49
  Speaker 4: that they're always working hard to try to improve their circumstance.
• 14:54
  Speaker 4: They're not just kind of kicked back and letting things
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: happen to them. Another way to engage your reader's hearts
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: is to be sure to include a theme, something that
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: they can connect with be suttled with it. Nobody likes
• 15:13
  Speaker 4: to be hit over the head, but theme is a
• 15:15
  Speaker 4: really good way to add some heart to your story.
• 15:20
  Speaker 4: Something else you can do is to have a representative
• 15:23
  Speaker 4: or significant object that's very important and emotionally tied to
• 15:28
  Speaker 4: your character, and then something happens with them. It can
• 15:34
  Speaker 4: even it can even relate to the theme. For example,
• 15:38
  Speaker 4: in Up, we have control versus acceptance and change versus
• 15:44
  Speaker 4: wanting things to stay the same, and that grape soda
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: pin is related to those. The main character hangs on
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: to his grape soda pin until finally, eventually at the
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: end of the story, he realizes he needs to let go,
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: and he gives it to the little boy and welcomes
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: him into his club. He's finally going to be that
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: grandfather figure that Russell so desperately needs. Things that you
• 16:15
  Speaker 4: don't want to do state the obvious or rely on cliche.
• 16:21
  Speaker 4: Definitely think about literary devices, use the rhetoric, and make
• 16:28
  Speaker 4: sure that your readers are not just reading because it's
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: an intriguing and fun story, but because they are drawn in,
• 16:39
  Speaker 4: they enjoy your characters, and they're emotionally invested in the
• 16:43
  Speaker 4: outcome of the story.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Elliot S. Magan, Welcome to the podcast.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you all right, Arius is.
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: Such a treat. I'm just delighted to have you here. Okay,
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: traditional first question, if you could offer writers one piece
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: of advice, what would it be.
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: It's always been go through your first draft and cross
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: out all the adjectives and adverbs, just cross them out.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: Death to all modifiers.
• 17:17
  Speaker 4: Yes, I don't anyone said that.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: I love it.
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: I would have added exclamation points, except in comic books
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: that doesn't work right, You gotta have them. How did
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: you get started in writing? Was that something you always
• 17:33
  Speaker 3: wanted to do? Or did it come later? Or how
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: will it happened?
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: I mean, what I always wanted to do was be president,
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: I think, but I think, I think.
• 17:43
  Speaker 3: I wish you were, but I need to I'm not eligible.
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: You know, I keep thinking about that, you know, I
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: keep thinking I missed the boat somehow, I think in
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: an alternate universe. In an alternate universe, I'm actually president somewhere.
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: Were you were you writing in college?
• 18:01
  Speaker 2: You went to Columbia, right, No, Brandis first, Yeah, Brandeis
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Brandis undergraduate and then Columbia. Yeah. I wrote a term
• 18:12
  Speaker 2: paper that for history class that included a comic book story,
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: Green Arrow story, and uh, and I got to beat
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: plus on it, and I thought it observed in a
• 18:28
  Speaker 2: I mean, be pleasant, ridiculous grade for a term paper
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: that has a comic book in it.
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: Right, it was either in you grief because it was
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: a comic book story or no.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: I mean I even cleared it with him first, and uh,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: I said, uh, you either get an A or a
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: F if you do that, you know, give me a rationality. Said, well,
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: we thought we we thought you were going to draw
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: it too, and I can't draw.
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: But that story was eventually published, right, was a major
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: turning point for Green Arrow?
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 19:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: Even one Man Do or something.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: One Man do?
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 19:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah? Mayor right, nice, yep.
• 19:09
  Speaker 3: You decide superheroing isn't enough, so he's going to run
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: for mayor. I don't remember how it worked out. Does
• 19:13
  Speaker 3: he win the election?
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: Well, he didn't in the comics on television, he did.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: I guess didn't he.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: Oh, I don't know. You're talking about the error show.
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: I haven't. I don't know. I'm sorry. Yeah.
• 19:25
  Speaker 4: Was that sparked by your interest in politics? You mentioned
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: that you feel like you missed the vote and you
• 19:30
  Speaker 4: you think you should be president now, which.
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: Well, I think I should have been president, you know,
• 19:35
  Speaker 2: twenty years ago.
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you actually ran for office a couple of times, right,
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: I didn't. And we're very involved in democratic politics.
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Yeah, Yeah, it's apparently a hobby. I thought
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: it was going to be a vocation, but apparently not.
• 19:51
  Speaker 4: Was Green Arrow kind of sparked by that interested you?
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: Yes, definitely that happened within that. Yeah, at the point
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: of the story in my term paper was to show
• 20:01
  Speaker 2: that comic books could be used as a political tool.
• 20:05
  Speaker 2: And yeah, and they apparently liked it enough to give
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: me a B plus. But I wasn't satisfied that. Carmin Infantino,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: huh who picked it up? Julie Schwartz did, Carmine. I
• 20:22
  Speaker 2: sent it to Carmine. Carmine didn't really read anything. He
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: drew pictures, so he gave it to Julie and Julie
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: didn't have time to read it, and he said to
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Neil Adams, hey read this, tell me what it's about.
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: And Neil said, okay, I'm not going to do that.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: And Julie said, okay, take it with you. And he said, okay,
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: what am I going to do with it? He says,
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: read it and tell me about it tomorrow, and Neil said, no,
• 20:47
  Speaker 2: I'm not going to do that. And then he came
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: in the next day and said, if you if you're
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: buy this, I'll draw it. So that's how it got published.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Well, well, Julie loved the script too, right, he said, yeah,
• 20:57
  Speaker 3: he did. It was one of the greatest things he'd
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: ever seen. Is how long forty years at d C
• 21:03
  Speaker 3: or something like that.
• 21:04
  Speaker 2: He'd been there for thirty five I think at that point, yeah.
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: At that point, yeah, yeah. So then you started writing
• 21:12
  Speaker 3: for probably several comic companies, including d C.
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: Right, well, mostly d C. I mean, I Julie kept
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: me pretty busy. Every once in a while, I got
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: I got mad at him because he ran out of
• 21:25
  Speaker 2: scripts to buy. So, you know, one time I had
• 21:31
  Speaker 2: a big argument with him. I had arguments with him
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: all the time. And we were like street kids from
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: the same neighborhood, you know, although he was older than
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: my father. Yeah, And I called up stan Lee and
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I said, I want to meet with you in your office.
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: He says, okay, like a grown up like that. Just
• 21:54
  Speaker 2: like that.
• 21:54
  Speaker 3: Wow, not bad.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: So we met in the office and I said, I
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: need four books a month because Julie's mad at me.
• 22:03
  Speaker 2: And he said, you can have a spider Man story.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: So I wrote a Spider Man story.
• 22:09
  Speaker 3: Oh that's great. But of course, me being on the
• 22:15
  Speaker 3: panel and with this book coming out, you know, I'm
• 22:18
  Speaker 3: going to ask about Superman. Wrote one of the pivotal
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, you wrote a lot of Superman stories, but
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: the pivotal one I'm about to talk to, which was
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: included and the greatest Superman stories of all time, is
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: must there be a Superman?
• 22:34
  Speaker 2: That was my first Superman story.
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:37
  Speaker 2: I really wanted really it said. It explained what I
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: wanted to do with Superman, which is cool.
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: How did that come about, Julie.
• 22:48
  Speaker 2: Julie just leaned over his desk. He said, you think
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: you're ready to write a Superman story? And I said, yeah,
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: I lied. I didn't think I was, but I did.
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: Yes out.
• 22:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I was twenty. You know, you can't
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: write a Superman story when you're twenty. But it came
• 23:04
  Speaker 2: out okay, So it.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: Turned out to be one of the best ever, often
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: reprinted and referenced sort of in in Zack Snyder's Batman
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: Versus Superman. Right, can you tell that story when it
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: because you weren't.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, who's the guy he got? Who's the TV host
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: Charlie Rose? Yeah he was. He was interviewing somebody and
• 23:29
  Speaker 2: about Superman being out of town for a long time,
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: and he looks at the camera very pregnantly and he says,
• 23:39
  Speaker 2: must there be a Superman? Like he made it up?
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: You know. He really pissed me off. I mean what
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: pissed me off was not that he said it, but
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: it was it. They didn't They didn't thank me at
• 23:52
  Speaker 2: the end.
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: It was an obvious it was a name drop for fans,
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: but you didn't get a credit at the end, right,
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: I didn't.
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: I did, and I still haven't. I don't know why.
• 24:03
  Speaker 2: I mean, I looked at the last Superman movie and
• 24:07
  Speaker 2: I said, Okay, I'm not in this list, but this list,
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: you know, it's like anchors.
• 24:14
  Speaker 3: Everybody's on at the end of those credits for the
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: Yeah everybody.
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: Wow, apparently somebody took my name out. That's what it
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: looked like to me. I don't know why.
• 24:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, let's start a movement.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I say. And in addition from my work.
• 24:32
  Speaker 3: To the VIDI comic book stories, you also wrote what
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: I think were the first Superman novels in like forty years, right,
• 24:39
  Speaker 3: in conjunction with the Christopher Reeve movies. Yeah, Last Son
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: of Krypton and Miracle Monday. Right.
• 24:46
  Speaker 2: How did that come about? I think I mentioned offhand
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: to Jeanette at some point that what I really wanted
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: to do is write novels. She says, oh, let's think
• 24:58
  Speaker 2: about that. And I wrote a treatment for a Superman
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: movie in seventy four. I think it was Wow. I said,
• 25:07
  Speaker 2: it's time to do a Superman movie. So I took
• 25:12
  Speaker 2: the treatment upstairs two stories upstairs was Warner Books, and
• 25:18
  Speaker 2: I said, let me, can we do this? And Kathy Malley,
• 25:22
  Speaker 2: my editor, she looked at her. She okay, and she
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: gave me this two thousand dollars advance to do a
• 25:29
  Speaker 2: novel and forgot about it. And then I showed up
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: three months later. With a novel.
• 25:36
  Speaker 4: Wow, three months.
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: I pretty much starved during that three months because, yeah.
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: That was cool. I remember at the time though, because
• 25:46
  Speaker 3: I don't think they did an official novelization of the movie. So, yeah,
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: here were your two novels, which were fantastic.
• 25:52
  Speaker 2: Well, the idea was they were going to bring out
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: the last time kurked on between the first two movies,
• 25:59
  Speaker 2: and Ariopusa had the right the rights to do the
• 26:02
  Speaker 2: novelization of the movie.
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: I see, and he.
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: Got everybody gets pissed at everybody, you know, doesn't make sense,
• 26:11
  Speaker 2: but he he wanted his son Jeane to do the novel,
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: and and then he had a falling out with the
• 26:21
  Speaker 2: Salkans and and nobody did a novel, but he get
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: the rights to do it. So they brought my book
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: out before they were going.
• 26:29
  Speaker 3: To I bet that was especially since they didn't use
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: your treatment. I mean, why have a movie written by
• 26:35
  Speaker 3: somebody who knows Superman inside out. Let's get the guy
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: guy to do it.
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: I asked him. I asked him, I said, how do
• 26:44
  Speaker 2: you get to be a big, hot screenwriter in Hollywood?
• 26:48
  Speaker 2: He says, write a bestseller and have them call you. Yeah,
• 26:51
  Speaker 2: you really can't do it through the front door.
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and that's what happened to him.
• 26:56
  Speaker 4: Man.
• 26:56
  Speaker 3: Okay, here's what I remember best.
• 26:59
  Speaker 4: Huh not also not an easy option though, No, not,
• 27:03
  Speaker 4: it's not.
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: I don't. I mean, the two Superman novels were best
• 27:07
  Speaker 2: sellers because they're movie tians, I assume because they're movie tians.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: And.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: I don't have to do I've been trying to do
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: that trick ever since I've been writing books and trying
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: to you know, trying to make.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Them sell another best seller. Yeah, yeah, Okay, here's what
• 27:25
  Speaker 3: I remember best about your Superman novels. You managed to
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: work Albert Einstein into the Superman origin story, which I
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: thought was brilliant. I mean, it makes sense. Is a
• 27:39
  Speaker 3: great scientist is just going to shoot his kit off
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: in space randomly. No, He's going to send him to
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: somebody smart.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, from a from a planet that was ruled
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: by scientists, essentially, So Geryl's assumption was going to be
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: the best person to raise my son is the greatest
• 27:58
  Speaker 2: scientist in the world, you know. I mean, Krypton is
• 28:03
  Speaker 2: probably to fifty light years from Earth, so he would
• 28:09
  Speaker 2: have to have programmed it somehow into the works of
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: the navigation system. But I didn't go into that kind
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: of detail. I did say. I did say that Superman
• 28:21
  Speaker 2: was orbiting ant Terry's, which is a red giant start
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: two hundred and twenty eight light years from Earth, and
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: they changed that somehow. I apparently somebody decided that, no,
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: we don't want it to be an Terry's. We wanted
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: to be this obscure planet, this obscure stars somewhere closer by.
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: But and Terry's was a good choice, I thought.
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: Makes sense to me, and somehow, just to make everybody feel,
• 28:48
  Speaker 3: you know, secure, the young child does go from Einstein
• 28:53
  Speaker 3: to the Kents at some point.
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, Einstein, in his wisdom realizes that it the
• 29:00
  Speaker 2: age of sixty eight at the time, he couldn't raise
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: an alien child, so he found a nice couple.
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, very good. One of the other things beyond your
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: amazing writing the people recall is that your name always
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: appeared Elliot S. Magan, except instead of a period, the
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: s had an exclamation point, as it should for a
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: comics writer. How did that come about?
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: Is it typo? Seriously? Yeah? I wrote, I wrote an
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: exclamation mark in the in the credits. At some point
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: in some story, in like seventy two or seventy three
• 29:42
  Speaker 2: something early, and Julie liked it, and he got all excited,
• 29:47
  Speaker 2: and he went to the production room and he said,
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: from now on, Elliott's name will be punctuated with an
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: exclamation mark, not not a periods. After a while, I
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: kind of put it, you know, I adopted it into
• 29:59
  Speaker 2: my wife. I open checking accounts with an exclamation mark.
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: Credit cards. Yeah, nobody cared.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: The best things come about by accidents sometimes.
• 30:12
  Speaker 3: Okay, we've done a lot of rags here, but I
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: think this might be your crowning achievement or crowning recognition
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: or something. I can see your puzzled expression. You're wondering
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: what I'm going to come up with. You are actually
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: a character in the DC universe, right like you're there,
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: I'm there that you were in two issues of Justice League?
• 30:36
  Speaker 3: Am I right? Why does that happen?
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Well remember Night of the Reaper Batman story, really
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: good Batman story, yes, Halloween story, and all my friends
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: got in the story. And I started in the indust
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: in the business right after Denny had written it, so
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: I wasn't in it, and I was kind of jealous.
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: I went up to Rutland the following year, with everybody
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: but nobody wrote a story about it. The mcguffin was
• 31:11
  Speaker 2: was al Weiss's Star of David if you remember the story,
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: Not as well. But those Rutland, I mean they're just
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: in a parade. You were like an actual character in
• 31:24
  Speaker 3: the story. Yeah, yeah, much.
• 31:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah. You know, people were putting their names into stories,
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: and people are putting their friends into stories. And Carry
• 31:32
  Speaker 2: and I were talking about Harry Bates and I were
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: talking about it one day and we decided, I don't
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: like that, it's too much. We should go way over
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: the top. Make ourselves major characters. One of us should
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: be the hero, one of us should be the villain,
• 31:46
  Speaker 2: and and nobody will ever do it again. And we
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: hadn't heard of Grant Morrison at that time, right, So
• 31:57
  Speaker 2: we put ourselves in stories. We flipped the coin. I
• 32:00
  Speaker 2: got to be the villain with the costume, and I
• 32:04
  Speaker 2: was I was the guy who rescued the Justice League.
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: And we thought the reason we did it was because
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: it was stupid, you know, and fun. Yeah, yeah, it
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: was fun. But you know, we wrote. You know, when
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: Carry and I wrote together, he wrote scene descriptions and
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: I wrote dialogue and it went really fast. It always
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: went really fast because that was our particular facility. So
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: I think the second story, the one in Justice League
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: wheen twenty four. We wrote that in like an hour
• 32:41
  Speaker 2: and a half.
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: Wow.
• 32:45
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it was a record grossive. It was like between
• 32:47
  Speaker 2: nine and ten thirty one morning, and then we handed
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: it in at noon. So we thought the whole both
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: stories together, we thought they were stupid. We meant for
• 32:57
  Speaker 2: them to be stupid. And we got more fan mail
• 33:01
  Speaker 2: on those two stories than either of us had ever
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: gotten on anything. I mean, I gotta, I gotta, I
• 33:06
  Speaker 2: got a stalker girlfriend New Orleans started. It was weird.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, I shouldn't laugh.
• 33:14
  Speaker 2: It was all right.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: I mean, he sounds out there.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: My wife threw out all her correspondence, didn't want me
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: to even see it.
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: That's weird.
• 33:25
  Speaker 4: I start watching the mail a little bit more clearly. Well, yeah,
• 33:28
  Speaker 4: you're you're a DC character. Yeah you don't need to
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: be President's.
• 33:35
  Speaker 2: I need to be president.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: Can you talk about your work in gaming?
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: In in gaming, yeah, huge industry.
• 33:44
  Speaker 2: Now, yeah, nothing ever got out the door. I worked
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: for Atari for maybe three years, came up with a
• 33:55
  Speaker 2: concept called Timegate, which was a The idea was we
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: were gonna We're going to come up with a story
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: among a Justice League story, and the conceit was that
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: the kid playing the game on a modem would would
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: would be one of three people that the Justice League
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: satellite got in touch with when there was a terrible
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: emergency that that had to be coordinated from Earth. And
• 34:34
  Speaker 2: you know, one thing after somebody would steal all the
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: artwork in the world, the Statue of Liberty, the Mona Lisa.
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: The.
• 34:42
  Speaker 2: Mount Rushmore or whatever. And that was one story, and
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: they bought it. They went for it, and they were
• 34:49
  Speaker 2: gonna they were gonna do it, and they kept changing
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: marketing directors and finally the company went out of business.
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: But it was fun pretty much. We we invented interactive fiction.
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: I don't I don't think anybody had done it before.
• 35:06
  Speaker 2: But the problem was there wasn't an installed base of modems.
• 35:12
  Speaker 2: It was sufficient, so you were just ahead of your time.
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 35:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 35:18
  Speaker 2: In the Luther book, though, Luther created Timegate and and
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: it was at the same period of time. But he
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: marketed himself and that was how he made his first money.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: He he managed to, uh, you know, I keep telling
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: people I can send you an email if you answer
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: it or if you open it, I can I can
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: get into your hard drive. I know how to do that.
• 35:46
  Speaker 2: So don't don't answer email from me.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: Noted.
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's all right. I don't use my powers
• 35:56
  Speaker 2: for evil flext dous so he he would. You know
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: that there was a small number of modems installed, and
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: at that time CEOs and very rich people were using
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: their kids computers, the same computers as their kids, because
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: there wasn't any problem with you remember war Games the movie, Yeah,
• 36:20
  Speaker 2: the movie. Yeah, Matthew Broderick. It was Matthew Broderick, wasn't it. Yes, yes, okay,
• 36:26
  Speaker 2: he he got into a defense department computer because they
• 36:31
  Speaker 2: had a motem. Yeah, it's easy. So so Lex did that,
• 36:40
  Speaker 2: and he was he was doing a lot of insider
• 36:42
  Speaker 2: trading at the beginning of his career. He thought that
• 36:45
  Speaker 2: wasn't interesting enough, so he branched out to become a menace.
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: That's the story and that luthor a novel you're talking about,
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: that's Lex Corp, right, yeah, which is available now. If
• 36:57
  Speaker 3: anybody wants to check that.
• 36:59
  Speaker 2: Out, I think they should.
• 37:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah me, never mind, something else you got to mention
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: because for my next book, I've been taking a deep
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: dive into Bill Finger. But you actually received the coveted
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: Bill Finger Award, which gives is given for a substantial
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: body of work in the comics world. Right, that must
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: have been a treat. It was.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: It was fun and I got to give a.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: Speech and people had to listen, right.
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: And people had to listen because they were eating its
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: like Denistador. But yeah, yeah, it was fun. That's a
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: that's a that was a good award. It still is.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: They give it to somebody who's alive and somebody who's dead.
• 37:45
  Speaker 3: Right, Well, that was Jerry Robinson's idea, right, because he
• 37:49
  Speaker 3: knew Finger never got the attention he deserves and they
• 37:53
  Speaker 3: were buddies. Yeah.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Jerry Robinson was a good.
• 37:56
  Speaker 3: Guy, agreed. I got to meet him briefly once too,
• 38:00
  Speaker 3: and it was a treat. Yeah. Working on anything now,
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: anything you want to talk about or brack about or anything.
• 38:08
  Speaker 2: My daughter wants me to do an autobiography, so I'm about.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: To me too. So now you got two copies sold, Okay,
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: I think that would be fascinating. You've got all those
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: DC stories you knew Siegel and Schuster personally, and I
• 38:24
  Speaker 3: did was part of the pr contingent to get them
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: a pension in nineteen seventy five and have a terrific
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: body of stories well which I could go about, go
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: on about for a long time, but we probably better
• 38:40
  Speaker 3: wrap this up. Elliott, this has been a real treat.
• 38:44
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much for being on the podcast.
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: Good to see you. Yeah, I would say good to
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: meet you, but apparently I've done that before, right, you
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: know that? All right, all right, be good, stay in touched.
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: Let me know when this is gonna happen.
• 39:08
  Speaker 3: Just a few parting words, because I think the fee
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: Line project manager is telling us we've been recording long enough.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: But at the end of that interview, you heard Elliott
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: Megan refer to seeing someone and forgetting about her or
• 39:26
  Speaker 3: something like that. Let me explain the story. When I
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: talked to him on the phone a couple of weeks
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: ago setting this interview up, I said, Hey, I met
• 39:34
  Speaker 3: you at the San Diego Comic count and you autographed
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: a book for me, and I was really touched. And
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: he said, ah, that wouldn't have been me. I wasn't there,
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: but I have the receipts. So before we did the interview.
• 39:47
  Speaker 3: I showed him the book because I've still got it,
• 39:50
  Speaker 3: the autographed back in nineteen ninety one. Get this, about
• 39:54
  Speaker 3: five months before my own first book would be published. Anyway,
• 39:58
  Speaker 3: That's what he referring to. The writer Con of retreat
• 40:04
  Speaker 3: is coming up. Small group work with Laura and I
• 40:07
  Speaker 3: and three other people. That'll lead July fifteenth to the nineteenth.
• 40:12
  Speaker 3: And of course the writer Con conference every year is
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: Labor Day weekend, which this year is September fourth through seven.
• 40:19
  Speaker 3: We're gonna have more than one hundred sessions, more than
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: thirty speakers, did I say thirty? More than sixty speakers,
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: and more agents than we've ever had before, contests and
• 40:31
  Speaker 3: so much fun. Put it on your calendar, and let's
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: see if we can't take your writing up to the
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: next level. All right, to learn more about it, go
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: to writer con dot com. All right, until next time,
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: keep writing, and remember you cannot fail.
• 40:50
  Speaker 5: If you refuse to quit. See you next time, he polls.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: She to her pom