Latest / Man In Your Corner with Shaun Tucker / Run the Play: The Art of Adaptation, Coaching, and Presence with UFC Legend Brian Ebersole | Ep. 120
Transcript
- Shaun: Welcome back to the reset. I am Sean Tucker, human performance scientist and authority architect. I'm here in the living lab with a UFC legend, which I'll get into his bio in just a second, documenting the struggle, the science, and that this is where I always lose my line, but it's okay, I'm gonna edit this part out. And the shift for every high performance dad and founder who's ready to bridge the gap between their presence and their ambition. Today I'm here with the legendary Brian Ebersol, who was in the UFC for a number of fights and has close to eighty professional fights in his career. He is an absolute legendary figure in the world of ⁓ mixed martial arts. He's best known for his storied career in the UFC's welterweight division. With over 70 professional fights, his nickname was Bad Boy Ebersol. He became an icon of str strategic unorthodoxy, famously immortalized by his highlight reel, cartwheel kick, knockout. Beyond the octagon, Brian is also a lifelong wrestler and high performance coach who now helps others architect their own paths to mastery. Today He joins me in the living lab to discuss the transition from combat sports to coaching and what it really truly means to change your state and choose how you show up as a dad, as a man, and just yeah, really excited to get into this conversation today. Brian, welcome to the show. Brian Ebersole: I have never heard my bio in like the form of a love letter. That was very flattering, Shaun I appreciate you. Wow. ⁓ Shaun: Now you're making me go all red Brian Ebersole: I'll have as many questions for you today as you'll have for me, don't worry. We'll have a chat. How you going? Yeah, good morning from the the great sporting fields of ⁓ Liverpool, New South Wales, by the way. Having a little bit of a spirit, didn't happen? Shaun: ⁓ I think so too. I I guess that's where I'll start it. Yeah. How long actually I'll start it there. How long have you lived in Australia? 'Cause obviously you're not you are not from Australia originally. You're from the USA. Brian Ebersole: My accent would definitely indicate I'm not from here. ⁓ I speak a bit too plainly I and I can't just forget about the letter R from the alphabet, the way you Aussie seem to do. so yeah, I was I was from a small town like south of Chicago. I would say j like the most outer ring of what you would still consider suburban. You know, like when you have the thick suburbs and then you start to see some farmland and then some small towns moving out from the city, I was in that last little bit. So we didn't have the metro train line to Chicago. Shaun: Yes. Mm-hmm. Brian Ebersole: It was like a 30-minute drive to get to that. and I came over here for the first time in 2006 to compete on an event called like October, whatever, Fright Night. So it was like a Halloween event ⁓ in Brisbane. So I was able to compete at the Broncos Leagues Club. ⁓ and I stayed and like slept in a gym for two months, competed one more time and went back home. And I moved back the very next year. So I've been here more than anywhere else since like Shaun: ⁓ wow. Wow. Brian Ebersole: ⁓ 06-07 that that holiday period of you know Christmas and all that got home for and then yeah prepared to actually move back ⁓ and take a roll here. Shaun: Yeah. So you've lived here for the last twenty years and man, you've had an impressive career in mixed martial arts, on in the ring, in the octagon, and like Brian Ebersole: We had a lot of fun through all the tough stuff. ⁓ Shaun: A lot of fun indeed. And I just love like the way the the place that I met you was obviously it was through Train Alta, ⁓ which obviously is a twenty week fighter warrior training camp, which I competed in last year, towards the end of the last year. I think it was the first season you guys ran down here in Victoria. And Brian Ebersole: was, yeah, with me, yeah. I think we'd ran in Victoria in the past. ⁓ and then gym partnerships and all that change and promotion opportunities change. So COVID with a big everything in Victoria. So yeah we've got we've got momentum going back in Victoria again and are on our second program with a a finale coming up in Geelong again. But yeah, meeting you ⁓ at the finale for the first time. I'd missed you when I came to see you guys at the gym, I recall. I saw the other boys in the afternoon Shaun: Mm. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: classes and just didn't catch ya so Shaun: Well, we met each other I think on the first first day you came down, 'cause you came down in the first couple of weeks and then ⁓ that f yeah, that like camp was ⁓ it wasn't the most ideal ⁓ structure for me because Brian Ebersole: Yeah, day one. Day one chat. It wasn't the structure at all and that's that's tough, you know. It's one of the ones where Shaun: It was it was hard. Like ⁓ we were meant to have a very structured and rigid kind of routine leading up to the the camp. I mean to the to the fight night, which didn't happen, but that's that's all well and good. But I also faced different ⁓ challenges during that camp too. Like I had a business mastermind that I went to Bali, which is why I didn't see you in the second time. I also moved house. One of the most stressful events you could go through. Brian Ebersole: Yes, as you would. You're telling me I'm I'm nearing that for the first time in a number of years. As a gray bearded man that no longer wants to grab the dryer by himself and throw it on a a truck, you know, or in the back of an SUV. So yeah yeah hiring a bunch of people to move your stuff and like getting amongst it. How long was that operation for you? Was that like slow burn for a couple of weeks and then the real hard, intense push to get in on the same day? Plus clean. Shaun: It was It was two weeks of ⁓ not training. That's what it was, ⁓ in terms of the the fight camp that I was in. But dude, it was we we upgraded our mattress to a Super King mattress. And this is just a little segue before I really get into the stuff I really want to get into with you. ⁓ we got it Brian Ebersole: Olivia. talk about like winding staircases and king sized mattresses? Is that where we're going? Uh-huh. Coach knows. Yeah. Shaun: Yeah. So it goes up and then it comes back up. And the thing was, it was a rolled you know, one of those roll up mattresses, because that's how they come these days. They come rolled up in a box. This it wasn't a koala, it was ⁓ Sleeping Duck or I can't remember which brand. Icosa, I think it was. ⁓ look, ⁓ I'm open for Ecosa to sponsor. Why not? Brian Ebersole: Like a koala mattress. Koala dot com for your most comfortable. Do we have a sponsor for this? Do we need to spruok one? Mattresses.com.au here on the reset, Sean Tucker. Shaun: I had to carry it up by myself, man, and I've got a a prolapsed L four and L five disc in my spine. Brian Ebersole: It's different. Shaun: It was rough, but I did it. I did it. And we we did it That's exactly right. Brian Ebersole: 'Cause we just do sometimes, right? And we just deal with the mobility and nerve pain consequences later. Shaun: Hundred percent. And I'd I'd love to actually speak about that for a second because I I actually watched your your debut UFC fight ⁓ last week because I was like, I really wanna just go watch some some videos of the fights that you've had and what an impressive career to to say at the least. ⁓ you were known for that cartwheel kick, right? And I think in that Brian Ebersole: Thank you. I did it so many fights leading up. You know what I mean? So I have the one highlight pre-UFC with it, knocking someone down in a ring and that's everywhere. but I had tried it in so many fights in the US and through and then coming over, got in trouble for it a little bit, because they thought I was showboating and like the ⁓ is that a WWE match instead of a fight? Kind of thing. And so yeah. definitely definitely known for a bit. You just Gotta have something, you know what I mean? I have a tough name to pronounce. I had to leave them something or memory me beyond. To memorize, you know, yeah. Shaun: The the a hundred percent. But The thing I loved about it was in your UFC debut you you threw it out a few times and obviously it didn't land, but I think in the interview after you s you were asked why did you do that? And I think you you said you just wanted to get it off your chest, really. You just wanted to just throw it out there. Brian Ebersole: Yeah, just do it, get it done. Yeah, 'cause you once you get known for something, you're probably gonna do it, but it can't be just like the act, like the shtick of a comedian just comes out and Alright, I'll tell the same. They know I'm gonna talk about this. Dave Chappelle, you know, famous skit. You work on it for months leading in. So you do do it a lot, but you still gotta find ways to deliver it. And you gotta make yourself still feel authentic as well. So there's always a story going into a fight. You know, sometimes there's for with me, there was things behind the songs that I chose and whatnot. It was like the moodsick, you know, of the the camp or the moment or the fight week. Sometimes, you know, you don't have to write it down until later and in the piece. You don't have to sign a contract 12 weeks out and give your fight. Shaun: ⁓ no. Brian Ebersole: song you know you get to give that later so sometimes even the songs choice and influence you know my retirement song was I've got bills I've got to pay I've got to work work work every day so UFC paychecks are kind of cool sorta not really mostly not really pretty small but they come at once it's like ⁓ I got 20 grand all at once Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: But when you wanna, you know, raise a family you gotta go work, work, work every day and have a weekly paycheck. So I knew I was on my way out, fight song indicates, go have your fun, retire, yeah. And do the thing. But yeah, even even prior. Shaun: I think that's one of the things I really admire about you as well is you're you're a switched on guy. Like you didn't I wanna say this politely. You didn't just do it for the the sake of I think loving the sport. It was that element too. You were aware of all these things that make you the provider, the protector of your family. You knew the next chapter. Brian Ebersole: Mm. There's opportunity cost to everything, yeah. No, that has to be looked at. Shaun: Understanding that. Yeah, a hundred percent. And I think so many people they get so caught up in the in the moment or the they see, this is the thing I think the intersection where you show up brilliantly is is that intersection between being your full authentic expression of who you are and being able to perform at that elite level. Because when you let go of the outcome and you're aware of what n you do what needs to be done. You show up, you give it all. Brian Ebersole: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Shaun: And I think so many people are still holding back. Brian Ebersole: Yeah, if you if you wanna win and you're in a position to go chase like that thing, a little bit of like physical discomfort that you've experienced before shouldn't stop ya. And so like you said, like I'm gonna carry that mattress up because I'm just gonna do that. Halfway through, ⁓ it bothers me a bit. But I'm three quarters of the way now. You know what I mean? It's like it's not your still not your whole stack all at once. All fail or not. Take a breath, reset, throw the shoulders back. Have a think about how to nudge that thing up without hurting your back now. And you just adjust and you go again. Right? So like technique changes that whole walk. Well your whole Shaun: Hundred percent. Brian Ebersole: Round one, round two, round three, that changes. Fight camp, you're training a certain way, getting certain feels and whatnot. ⁓ that's not good. Adjust. Or that's really good. Let's lean into that and build some strategy off of you know. working the action toward that roundabout that I'm really happy to play in. I've got three exits now. I used to only have two, but this other move, this other option has come about during camp. Alright, let's let's let's not focus on I know a new move. Let's focus on the move new move will show up when I'm doing the old ones anyway, and you just cycle back. So you would have maybe done a drill where it's like under hook, body lock, single leg, double leg, single leg, body lock, all the way back up to the original clinch position. Shaun: ⁓ Mm. Brian Ebersole: You know, and those things chain together really well. And then obviously there's the whipping finish. This way, that way, up, down, in, out, forward and back, or a mixture. So yeah, you start to how do I get things into the roundabouts I want to play? And then when life puts you in a situation like, well, take that roundabout and go that direction with it. When I'm hurt, am I gonna rest or am I gonna go see a physio that day? You have a choice. Shaun: Hmm. Yeah. And I think there's this Brian Ebersole: go on feel and be ⁓ just be a little bit clever it step by step. ⁓ You can judge yourself harshly in step, but ⁓ it's more like ⁓ save the ⁓ Act, ⁓ act again. ⁓ know, think one of questions on your ⁓ pre-podcast form was like, What's the on stuff? It's like ⁓ there's a little bit of the just do it. ⁓ Shaun: Yeah, 'cause you're trying to create Mm. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: But be a sportsman and go back with your coach and talk at halftime. Don't go to back to the locker room and only physically rah-rah rah. And don't go back there and only fluff ⁓ up, educate ⁓ or yell at It's gotta be all of it. There's all the elements. So teams have these neaten teams all the time and the best coaches do it naturally. But there's that little mix of the pie and you just shift. But no part gets left out, no ingredient. So you educate kids at halftime in a football game with X's N's. You give them a hard time on something, even if they had a great half and scores in their favor. You know what I mean? ⁓ you fluff them up a little bit on great job here and certain players and there's a team that wins, gives a game ball at the end. Shaun: Hmm. Mm. Brian Ebersole: It's all part of the ritual and routine. You know, and that still comes with some, all right guys, and on Monday we're doing this, this, this, and this. You know what I mean? So you're already setting the next step. You set expectations the whole way. So the Alta program is built like that. Well, each day, you know, four or five days a week, you're in, it's early morning, everyone's receptive. Coach is meant to hit certain checkpoints. And again, it's a lot easier to do as a team. It's hard to do with individuals coming in. Shaun: It's having that plan. Yeah, it's having that plan. Brian Ebersole: some classes and some not. So, you know, when fight camp experiences go like that. And that's what most amateurs have to deal with. We just in martial arts walk into an afternoon class and start training. And as a pro I had to do a lot of that here too, because there's not just a bunch of other pros around to just do a noon session when the gym's empty and not commercially open. Shaun: Yeah. Mm. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: So you you make do. Like a lot of amateurs go to work and have to come into those afternoon classes, you know, like you did. You know, so but they'll be there on they'll be there on Saturday and they'll go to open mat on Sunday. Sorry, go ahead. Yeah, that intersection between you saying? Shaun: Actually, that's that's That's a really interesting intersection what you're talking about. No, it's it's see what you're saying is basically it's having a plan that doesn't quite go to plan, but there's this element of you there is a path, yeah, exactly. And make sure that you follow it because you gotta deviate, you gotta change, you gotta really become present and really understand the choice that you have. Brian Ebersole: There's a path. Yeah, that's it. And the path winds a bit. Yeah, 'cause what's the mean? Success. Everyone's like, ⁓ success and success is like Big stock market graph, you know what I mean? Like Yeah. It's not so straight lined. If it was, everyone would do it and it'd be easy. But we're meant to be here and do difficult stuff. Keep ourselves humble. Shaun: snakes and ladders Hmm. Cause there's that just cool, calm approach. I remember ⁓ as I was watching the the video last week. Cause I don't like the thing about me is I don't really tend to watch a lot of UFC or MMA fights. When I saw the advertisement for it, I was just like when I saw the Fighter Warrior training camp, I'm like, I something inside me wants to do it. I don't know, I can't explain what it is. It's just I know I need to sign up and do it. Brian Ebersole: You and me both. they call like the call to the void when you're like what would it be like jumping off that Grand Canyon ledge? Like there's like a little bit of like mystique. Like don't want to do it. You know what I mean? Don't want to do it but like I wonder like how the fall would feel and all that fun stuff. So yeah they call it like the call to the void. So I think you had one of those moments, huh? Shaun: Something like that. Should we try it? I think that's just describes it perfectly 'cause there's this element I saw in ⁓ the interview, or not in the interview, during one of your fights, I think it was a UFC debut. And it was between round one and round two, your coach came over to you. You were cool as a cucumber. Literally, just cool as a cucumber, just absolutely present with what your coach was saying. And he's like, Take him down. Take him down. He's and you just said, Yeah, I'll take him down. And the amount of ⁓ shots you When to take him down and unf unsuccessful to take him down. I think you got him one one time in in one of the three rounds. It's just being receptive, right? To understand what's the next step towards that that path. I think that's such a crucial thing as a as a fighter, as a dad, and I'd love to to get into that as well. Because you have two daughters. Brian Ebersole: Yeah. Yeah, of course. I'm sitting here watching my daughter play right now, so yeah, please. But yeah, I think there's just a bit of It's very literal with sport, but I think it it it's the same with life. It's just life's a bit more loosely constructed. ⁓ but run the play. Run the play that was called. Have your huddles, have your chats, go run the play. You can't micromanage everyone on the field in a eleven man team of football. You know what I mean? You can try if you get to rehuddle up again. But in the moment chaos, man, the pros are making bad reads on plays and leaving guys open for Tom Brady to throw a potato down the field. There's no like Defensive stress. It's just, ⁓ as long as I don't really mess this up, he's catching that ball, and we're we're we're happy. You know, you miss plays all the time at basketball. Someone gets a slam dunk for no reason with a very basic pass. Stuff's hard. You know what I mean? So with every single endeavor, run the play, reassess, run the play, reassess. I don't know, I'd I'd rather play a little bit of that than just the soccer where the ball's always in motion all the time and it never stops. Like I'm happy to stop and have a think and a chat about the next best way to do it. We're already tired and working hard, you know, with wrestling. It's like so what's the easier way to do this? What's the easy way to do it? What what's the right way? How do the Olympians do it? And I wish I talked like this more when I was fifteen, you know what I mean? As opposed to forty forty five. You know, 'cause you just I'd have better posture on some of my shots and I would have, you know, certain habits that are a bit cleaner and different. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: So that's the fun part of being about being a good coach. You know, it's like putting better and better information in front of these kids and watching Yeah. Watching some guys really take to it. You still see guys that wrestle like we would have in the eighties. You know what I mean? But you see a couple that go, no, no, like coach, you you're telling me there's a difference between good guys and the best guys and I I've picked up on some of that and those habits I'll pay attention to and train it. It's like you have a higher ceiling. Shaun: Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: You just have a higher ceiling because you're receptive to that. Athleticism aside, it takes ten years of being in good health to get really, really masterful at something physical like this. I can't imagine you go rock climbing a year or two in. I'd imagine to be really elite. You'd want your seven to ten years of training and experiences. What's different? We could keep going down the list of any activity. Don't know any golfers that are that good out of the gate. Shaun: Mm. Mm. Brian Ebersole: You gotta be receptive like to the nuance, but God you gotta sit on that that practice field and hit reps after reps after reps and shut your brain off and find ways. You know? Shaun: Yeah, I mean your your brain your brain has to stay on, fully engaged and present with what's happening and and g ⁓ absolutely. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: Or but get out of the way. 'Cause you gotta put things on autopilot. So you can be nuanced. Like, all right, my footwork's in order. Now can I keep my footwork to that level while distracting myself from punches coming or punches going. Or basketball, like, ⁓ I can do this when there's no defender or it's just a dummy or a a teammate doing this, I can roll off that like Shaquille O'Neal or Hakim Olajuan or you know, Dwight Howard more recently. Shaun: And there's that the that Brian Ebersole: But then when there's real pressure, can you? Okay, well you can train that in practice. Now, are you a practice player or a game player? So there's all these like But some guys are really good in the training room and can't compete as well. Bright lights have I mean, there's stories of so many guys that couldn't play college basketball because the lights were on. And it was bright. You know, couldn't Shaun: You always fall to the level of your training, right? So maybe maybe Brian Ebersole: Couldn't do MMA, but they're the best guy in their room and they have guys in the UFC. And they beat him in sparring and they just haven't had their success. They got their shot, went 0-2, and got cut. And then maybe beat someone lackluster and lost another one and was like, man, I just I'm not good at cage. Like just And how do you get guys like that easy fights? Imagine if Daniel Cormier, UFC champ, you know, didn't translate well to MMA. He's an Olympic wrestler, he's that good. Shaun: Hmm. Brian Ebersole: What if all the fighting, punching really got to him that bad? But then who do you give him to compete against? Because you can't not give him the best guys in the world still, 'cause he's a best guy in the world athlete as a wrestler. Which is a big part of combat sports, you know, especially the way he would compete. Shaun: Yeah. makes MMA makes it really interesting because you've got so many different disciplines coming into one ring or one octagon, right? And I think it's it's evolved a lot over the last twenty twenty odd years. I mean, probably even since you were you were in the octagon as well, yeah. Brian Ebersole: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. It's still Yeah. But you can still sometimes see like a certain animal versus a certain animal matchup that you don't see that often. You're like, ⁓ I'm watching a giraffe versus a rhino right now. You know what I mean? Like they're both big animals but they're different big and then they can run into each other but they probably can't hurt each other like with one like slash of the you know bear paw or the bite, you know. This would be interesting. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: You watch ⁓ play and wrestle and throw some overhand rights and you know, it's it's it's a different battle. But you still see some of that, but the skill set, the knowledge, yeah, people are taking it as MMA first more often than single art. I'm gonna do something for seven to ten years and get good at it, and then I'll try to mix it versus the other element. Like I'm really good at grappling. I'll let someone try to hit me before I choke them. And I'm really good at boxing, but I've never Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: done much past a few BJJ classes. Should I should I enter this way, that way? Do I do BJJ comps? Do I do an MMA match first? Do I do a combat sambo? You know, there's all these ways to attack ⁓ even that very straightforward dichomedy. Dichotomy, grappling, striking. Which art. If you're in a martial arts, sometimes it's no art. It's just grappling, striking. And they're that bare bones about it. Shaun: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: And they might still market it muay thai or boxing, but like their coaching philosophy is like you're striking or you're grappling. Shaun: It's very true. And Brian Ebersole: Big standed, we'll talk about the other. Like Muay Thai talks about takedowns, but very specific rules or things you can't do. can't like just jump on someone's back and then throw them down. Which is the meta in Yeah, like you see boxers all the time, they slip a punch and they put their ear on the guy's shoulder. Shaun: Hmm. It's very nuanced, right? Brian Ebersole: And they turn around and they kind of grab them by the waist or they push them off, but they're on their back. And they would normally grab them and want to dump them. So even Muay Thai that allows grappling doesn't allow that. You can't like pick your foot up like hook their leg and throw them down. You have to have your feet firmly planted on the ground and you have to be like able to throw, dominate, or trick someone. Shaun: So how do you get really good at this stuff? I mean, obviously it's Brian Ebersole: dance and play and reps and feedback and reps and you get really tired but it's like dancing exercise but everyone wants to come in and squeeze and not breathe and not move their feet. Shaun: Because you you can't take in information when you are like that and holding it, bracing your breath, right? And I I felt find it almost so counterintuitive ⁓ when I was warming up, like pushing the intensity up for the warm-ups pretty high. And then you go into the information part, which is learning what the drill is, which is fine. But I felt like my system was so Brian Ebersole: Yeah. Shaun: peaked that it's really hard to take in and be perceptive and receptive to the information that's being shown. Brian Ebersole: So you you you're meant to call them in and make a change like this? Or hey you've done this, so we're gonna do this now. And make another cut. And that's it. And you let them go back out. And then when you sit them down, you really sit them down. And it's a water break and it's a laugh and it's a whatever on the way. You and your teammates taking your, ⁓ we might only get one minute. You know what I mean? They think they might be right back in for work. Shaun: Yeah. Mm. Brian Ebersole: So they try to calm themselves down, have their fun, their banter, their feedback, their their jives, their jokes, you know what I mean? And all that fun stuff during their water break. And if you give them five minutes, well then you get a receptive info. But sometimes you bring ⁓ back, you don't they only get the one minute. They come back either way, and you decide what to do next. Now, if you wanna get them to listen to some info, tell them guys, grab a seat. Shaun: I think that culture It's it's Brian Ebersole: go over our next bit, dot dot dot, when they start to settle in like students at school, going from one class to the next, and they still get that washover period. It doesn't always matter what you coach these guys. We all coach the same stuff. It's how you move the people through the room. So like as much as you want to be this source of knowledge, you also have to be like a goat herder. Shaun: I was I was gonna say, how much do you think that transitions between Brian Ebersole: You know what I You gotta be the puppy that can go round everyone up and then get them into these channels. But sometimes you let ⁓ play in the open field and sometimes you keep a loose ring around them, and sometimes you park up their bums and steer them a direction. But y it's still there's a timing thing. There's yeah, the time with my kids, there's a timing thing. And I get some fun results with them, like try to make everything a project or a thing, or you you mishear them on purpose and try to make it funny and let them just answer you and Shaun: Yeah. Let's Mm, it's kinda like being a dad, right? Brian Ebersole: It reinforces all we were going this way, Dad. No, no, and they become it gives them the control. And it's interesting for moments at a time to let them feel like they have that. Because it's very hard being a kid just being talked to or talked at. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: So yeah, she'll say something funny about ⁓ you want the red shirt? No daddy the blue one with Elsa on it. Yeah, the red one's really pretty. I'll go get it. And then she'll go get and talk to me about her blue Elsa shirt. And she'll put it on herself and see Dad this is the one. And then without even knowing it, she'd put her own shirt on. Shaun: Hmm. Brian Ebersole: It's like, ⁓ big girl, put on your own shirt, you got your own socks today. And you slowly build them towards being and then daddy you put on my socks and they pick the feet up and have their cute moments. But you make them capable. And you try not to argue so much. Let them lead the way a little bit. Shaun: I I would love to know where you've been able to learn and gather this level of awareness that I don't think many people have. To be honest, like it's Brian Ebersole: Childhood. Childhood. Yeah. And filters. Like filter yourself. 'Cause when I've let my filters go, I've said dumb stuff and like not nice and I've probably been mean. And I've probably done that even recently. So there's just that like run everything through filters and then let's go. You know, like but yeah, there's a way about I guess being playful and having a laugh, but also like I'm taken into the serious side, you build it in. Like a Disney movie. Shaun: Yeah. ⁓ Yeah. Brian Ebersole: There's playful and the serious parts of those movies. Kids like that stuff and they're very engaged. So why wouldn't you want to be just be that character? Play different characters with them. They put on different voices as kids. They're in a different headspace. Alright, we're we're being fairyland and silly. Okay, I get to be the dinosaur. I get to be the the alligator, I get to be the whatever. You know what I mean? I'm the horse. Jump on my back. Yeah, yeah. Shaun: Shifting roles, yeah. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: So most of my wrestle with the girls isn't like wrestle wrestle, it's like this act and this play that we'll end up doing. We'll shake hands, we'll do the thing. They try to pull my head down. Sometimes I say yes, sometimes I say no, but for a long time, yep, everyone, you get my back. ⁓ struggle, try to throw them off, you win, let's go again. Let's go, you go again. And they have their little appetite for it, you know what I mean? But it's not Shaun: Mm. Brian Ebersole: It's just one piece of this little puzzle to stay connected. So you have to have some ritual and they fade and they change and and all that stuff. But you keep when you can because it's healthy and helpful. Like we got Friday pizza night. You just have to do stuff like that with kids. You know what I mean? And it's routine and they look forward to it and it's known. So you make them feel stable. Yeah. Shaun: Yeah. When you get caught up in the Brian Ebersole: and wrestling and all that's trained the same way. Football's trained the same way. You run similar moves, similar plays, similar patterns. And you put those puzzle pieces together in different ways. But you make sure everyone knows what's going on through the movement. It's all right, can we do the movement well? Can we do it against another team? Sometimes yes, sometimes no, and take your results and adjust. Shaun: Yeah, that ability to coach I think is is such a lifelong skill because it requires you to show be present first and foremost, but Brian Ebersole: Yeah, you don't get to do it once and then just set a template. Even if you have a template on the stuff, there's still every day right now. For the hour, hour and a half, two hours, the weekly routine that we're together, whatever. Game day, all that. So you have to have ritual and routine and familiarity and still be flexible, yeah. Yeah, it was a cool way to grow up with American sport. And as I get older obviously be to talk about it in that manner. Shaun: No, no definitely not. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: feel it when you're there, like you know what's going on. You know, you know not every speech is meant to be like for you when you're on a team or individual sport or team sport, you know what I mean? Like, okay. Not everyone's aimed at someone either. And you learn that as you get older with some maturity. So yeah, I think it's a really neat, interesting way to grow up. So watching these guys play sport here, like do club, I find that interesting because there's so much instability in the structure. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: Like the kids will play the game the same way and then might play in the same fields, but like it's a different coach each year and it's a different club and it's a different thing and it's a different practice time. That's it. School was you get out of school, you go to practice, you play your games instead of practice sometimes. So it's the travel up, play, come back. You're home like two hours later. There's no pick your kid up from school, wait an indiscriminate amount of time before you get them to practice. Before they finish, it's like we practice right after school, all across America, you know where kids are, they're still at school, in a field, in a gym, you know, doing their thing, working their craft. ⁓ so it's a super stable way all the time. It's the same coaches, all the way through certain grade levels. You're familiar with your high school coach before you ever got to high school anyway, because you're all still part of the same system. So they come and talk to your team about hey, in two years when you're in high school, and you get info, you get motivated, you get the nervousness, you get the excitement, all that fun stuff. You know, I I find it so lacking and so sporadic here, like to have a good coach on a club or not to have a good coach. To have a stable club that's been there for ten years or one that was formed yesterday. Or one that's formed yesterday because the other one folded last year. So we're we're taking over because they folded. ⁓ Shaun: Yeah. You're making me reflect back on my ⁓ childhood and the sports that I played with basketball and tennis predominantly and Brian Ebersole: Yeah, it makes you think how it was all set up behind the scenes, right? The game's always the game. But before the scoreboard turns on, what's everything look like? Well to make that stable and just simple, but we didn't have to think about it. Here it's this puzzle that way more people are trying to put together than Shaun: Yeah. It is it is a puzzle, you're right. Brian Ebersole: They hire one person at a school that covers all the sports and give them a secretary. All the sports with all the other schools. Communication via the conference or the region or whatever it is. And you have your little pyramid of tournaments at the end where when you lose you go home. So you get a state champion each year. And it's earned. It's interesting, yeah. Shaun: Yeah. My my my good friend He said that sport here in Australia, especially if you get to a certain level, it's like you you turn into an orange, basically. They squeeze you and they squeeze you and they squeeze you until there's no more juice left to give. Brian Ebersole: Mm. Shaun: ⁓ and I think it's probably partially true. 'Cause there's that isolation factor, right? There's that lone wolfiness. Brian Ebersole: It's cause you're almost yeah, yeah, there's a bit of that with They take all these kids out of their hometowns for nine, ten months a year. Like preseason's four months long. And then a five, six month playing season, it's like, wow, let these kids rest. You're gonna wreck their bodies. It's a meat grinder. Like AFL and NRL. If they don't let these kids you know. Yeah, it's interesting. Basketball and some of them were the same way. Shaun: It sounds like the system for Yeah. It's very it sounds very different to what you were raised in, ⁓ over in obviously in the US. It's very different from what I hear. Brian Ebersole: We have our season and yeah, you get your off season, but we talk about preseason workouts and and some guys will play more than one sport, but I was lucky enough to play a season like football ran into wrestling. So then you had like the nice big break. You know, you had a real summer break, you had a real back half of the school year break. ⁓ so it wasn't horrible. Some kids will go like first and third quarter, for example, and have the breaks in the middle. But that pre-season and postseason like stuff is informed through university structured systems. You know what I mean? And Shaun: Mm. Brian Ebersole: We're not that proud over there. There's a million coaches. We don't need a million wheels. We need a couple wheels. Pick the style you like, coach, from Georgia Tech football or Duke Mike Krzevsky basketball, with you know all the success he had, but coming out after having went to West Point and graduated, knowing things about systems and structure and culture and all that. You know, he's written books and he's amazing in his own field, but it all came through basketball and was owned like by him. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: be able to put on a page through his experiences, but through one sport. Of course, tying it into things like this family and probably Christ and and all the rest in America. but yeah, I think structure and stability just allows them to play. The coach can then rest a little bit more easy, not having the admin burden and the uncertainty. It's very interesting here that I'll probably experience this more in the next year or two, but we're gonna be driving like an hour and a half to play a a one-match game with another team. Shaun: Yeah. Mm. Brian Ebersole: What's wrong with the team a suburb up? Two suburbs up on the train line. ⁓ we don't like their coach, so we don't play them. Or we don't know their coach, so we don't play them. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: I mean it's cool to go like coach against someone you know. And like have friendly rivalries, or or is it if it's is a business thing, like ⁓ we get together for this tournament each year. But like to not play in your own backyard doesn't even make economic sense. Like just economy efficiency speak. It doesn't make any sense. So our schools play the closest schools to them in like groups of eight and twelve. Because you can run tournaments off of numbers eight and twelve real easy. And yeah, you have your little seasonal playoffs, and everyone branches out to Shaun: Yeah. Yeah, it doesn't make any sense whatsoever. Yeah. Brian Ebersole: a regional tournament and then a section of the state tournament to qualify for that. So like here it's zone and school zone and region, I think are the first three I've encountered with my daughter. And I'm sure there's a state, she didn't make that one, but I'm sure there's a a next one because the top three qualified ⁓ from that from that zone. Shaun: Yeah. I think so, yeah. Brian Ebersole: So yeah, it's it's super through the schools. There's one guy called an athletic director, and he's able to make a schedule based on last season's, but also with the same group of athletic directors across every sport. And it's just truly efficient. It comes out of our taxes, you know, taxes, property, taxes, council rates, go to the schools where I'm from in large part and help run the town. So ⁓ yeah, they just have their budgets for teams and it's not that expensive to play sports and it's not ⁓ I mean there's traveling sport and I'm sure you have that here, you have local club and then you have like, let's go all-star club and let's go play the team in Perth and do this, and it's like, okay, you've got expendable income, go play. You know, like some people just that's not even a real option. Not even close to let's go have a twelve grand summer to play some soccer, netball, or baseball, basketball, you know. But yeah, through the schools it's there and seasonal and structured and yeah, in a in a nice box that works. Shaun: Yeah. W it just sounds like the Mm. So inbuilt into the ecosystem of how the the local neighborhood kind of runs and works. Makes sense. Brian Ebersole: ⁓ Yeah. because it's run through schools, there's elastic side. Like if someone's come up with ⁓ good it gets disseminated. ⁓ You it's not always groundbreaking stuff, but it's like ⁓ how run a kid through a practice room. If I've never done that. If I'm the ⁓ the coach that gets them all heated up and then brings them in for a nine minute explainer on ⁓ what of the GI to grab ⁓ and to put their foot. And I gotta show it twelve different ways ⁓ with different analogies to get the whole group to understand. ⁓ You know, versus found ways to talk to groups. Groups can help each other, like kids do help each other. I've been in the line going, how do I run this route as a wide receiver in football before? And they're like, it's seven yards, but you're probably gonna slow down at about five and hit a jab step so you fake them and then you go 45 degrees to your right. It's like alright, thank you. That's what coach said, got it. Like we just explained that stuff to each other. We go out and one of our mates is lined up on the other side and he has to defend us. We got a coach or a Shaun: Just like Yeah. Brian Ebersole: quarterback throwing the ball and you you go a hundred and then coach changes the route. Sometimes you miss it and someone has to nudge you just like they would in class. Like hey we're doing the multiply by fives timetable now not four. We've moved on. You know, and you let them build that teamwork and that whole thing and even in individual sports, like wrestling, it's the same. Now coach was saying, like, look, I'm gonna push, he's probably gonna push like this. Here's the reply. Here's the next best position for you to get to. You know, so you clean each other's like movements up as you go. Shaun: Mm. Yeah. That feedback is is crucial. Brian Ebersole: But but moving the kids through the room like cattle or playing an orchestra band, you know, it's it's that I think that's the real key. and there's days I do it well and I don't do it at all. There's days I I've probably done it badly, but you still get you know, you get through your hour. But yeah, the the idea is to try to let everything build and keep people in the onion just peeling little layers. But once you change the subject so big teach it real spread out it's hard you know when physical effort is all spread out it gets hard like well I can't show up because one's at five o'clock and one's at four a.m then on Saturdays it's this and six a.m every day seven a.m. every day you know like you carve out your your times that are non-negotiable you know you carve out your tasks that are non non-negotiable you know and you get after Shaun: Yeah. Just gets harder and harder ⁓ Yeah. That's Show up a hundred percent. Brian Ebersole: Prob probably have to do it again the next day, right? 'Cause it's on the calendar. Recurring event. Be a dad. From four to you know, whatever PM. So, Shaun: It sounds like it's really you've developed an art. ⁓ and I think you r meticulously dance with that art form. I th I mean, through your martial arts career. And even in your fatherhood journey as well. It sounds like how you coach, how you lead your and guide your daughters, it's it's really understanding the the intersection, the the path. Like the path is not always the plan. And I think maybe that's a quote that I'm gonna use for you is th Yeah. Brian Ebersole: Plans just have speed bumps that have not been encountered yet. That's all. It's just on paper. I've met a lot of people with great ideas. And they'll be like, step one and step two, and they put all this information into it. All this thought. And then they're like, step nine and ten are great because projection, blah, blah, blah. And I'm like, three, four, five, six, seven. Let's go. Yeah, but I was waiting for this to do that, and it's like three, four, five, six, seven. Like that's the hard part. And that's the murky bit. And that's the muddy bit. You're you don't even half the time write that. You just go do it. And it's like, ⁓ we got to eight. Good. Yes. Projection met. Idea validated. Effort in the middle decent enough to get us there. But it's that effort in the middle. That everyone just No, that's trudging. Like that's that's every step. It's not big blocks. I can't go big blocks a time and like not in a chat with my daughter and just zone out and her not know. Like so yeah, yeah, consequences for even autopiloting stuff. Though you do want to autopilot a lot of things. You want to. Shaun: Well yeah, how much how much of it is intentional practice, right? Is is actually being present in that practice. 'Cause you make it autopilot, which makes you more efficient and effective, but if you're not bringing consciousness to it and being present with what's happening in that practice, it's useless. Brian Ebersole: Yep, I can talk to you in the car, I can drive safe, and I can miss my exit with the blue line and Siri talking to me at the same time. You know? Like it it k bit of inattention and missed the exit. Here we go. All right. Shaun: There's a lot going on. Brian Ebersole: thing. You know, I can follow directions really well when I'm gonna talk on the phone. So yeah, you find You find like interesting bits of human potential and like we have bandwidth and we have moods and we have attitudes and yeah, we gotta mix that in in public, in private, with people close to us, with strangers, like it's interesting challenges, man. Yeah, and it's again, life in school, structured and lovely, and you can be friends with everyone at school and everyone have you know, you can put ⁓ in their place and you're living in that little smaller community and then everything gets globalized as soon as you get out. adult nothing makes sense there's no task to how to pay your rent it's not well if I show up for these hours of school I get my grade now it's good luck how many hours of work do you need all I gotta do algebra on my job decision to figure out if I can then figure out the algebra on the other side of the equation which is my living expenses and life situation you know It's definitely one of those big hits. So trying to bring back the lessons of that into the adult world's unique. Shaun: So yeah, how do you how do you stay Brian Ebersole: try to bring that that structure and that base and remember what it's like being a kid. Like they're so socially pliable. And then we get adults rigid and shy to talk to people and shy to like stand out in a crowd and you know. I think a lot of people being cheeky here could just start in public more often and take a deep not a deep breath of it. Maybe take a deep breath before, but then just be in the moment and see what happens and not already have the you know Shaun: Yeah, yeah, yeah. stop taking it so seriously. Brian Ebersole: If you're shy, do it on an escalator. Do it on an escalator. So you really remove yourself from the situation, but you know everyone gets a bit of your vibe in the moment. And be okay with that. Shaun: Yeah. There's one last question I'd love to ask. ⁓ it for the for the guy who's about to start his MMA or get into combat sports or whatever age they're at they're at, probably young adult, ⁓ probably have a lot of inner rage. They got a lot of stuff that's happened and they don't know how to how to deal with it. I mean, I'm relating to myself now, right? Back in those days. So Brian Ebersole: Yeah, go ahead. Yeah. Some I've yeah, met the spectrum. Mate, sometimes hitting a bag is amazing as a twenty six year old. An amazing way to just Shaun: Yeah, what what kind of advice would you have for someone who's just like they want to become the world's best at whatever they're doing? ⁓ Brian Ebersole: That's a different one. I'm gonna go ahead and stop you just quickly and let you finish to follow up, but we'll piggytail it, put them together in the sense that y you cannot walk into a gym and go, I wanna be the world's best. That's not there was not a single athlete at whatever age that started their sport, I don't care what age they were, that walked in that said that day one and had like a good journey. Like just a good journey, not even got there. Shaun: I agree. Brian Ebersole: There might be one or two that said that at 19 and 20 and got there. But it might have still been built on, but I wrestled in a in the talk smallness for a long time. You know what I mean? Like, I'm like one of the I have one of the world's strongest cultures of Sambo behind me. Like, okay, well when you walked in to get good at Sambo, what were you saying? Hi! All my friends are here! ⁓ hi coach! Shh shh. Shaun: Yeah. Yes. Brian Ebersole: And you sit down and you listen and you play and you do your thing and then later on you're like, ⁓ I've won a couple. I don't like losing. I think I can keep myself from losing if I try more and pay attention more and try more. get good at this, I'm gonna beat that kid. He's better than me now, but I'm gonna beat him by the end of the year. And if you don't do it that year, it's still your goal the next season. You'll see the same kids because remember we played the schools closest to us. So we see the same people. You get to like Yeah. You win some, you lose some different years even. Yeah guys that wrestle each other three times in one year and trade wins and losses. Scores can even be wildly like, hey we had a shootout 10-8 another time it was two to one. like super low scoring. Shaun: Mm. Yeah. There's a huge difference between I I think in the question that I ask, it's like one is coming from that deep place of insecurity, right? It's I I trying to prove myself in some way, shape or form, but the other one's really coming from that place of deep trust and it's community and its culture and it's building character. Brian Ebersole: Yeah, I think you gotta walk in with the attitude of I wanna do this. Just I wanna do this. Yeah, I wanna be here doing this. Yeah, yeah. You're meant to lean on each other and listen. So remember we talked about earlier being static? How you can't take on coaching while you're like that? You can't even take on the data you're meant to be taking on through the interaction because you're so like I say lean on someone and then listen and feel. Listen to where they're trying to go, what they're trying to do. Listen to their effort and you try to ride it. Stay on top of the surf cord. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: just minimum that's a simple wrestling one you know as opposed to BJJ which wants certain moves I just say we'll just be on top and it doesn't matter like what happens if you get like in your goal still to stay on top slip some of those little things out of the way that can flip you and turn you get rid of the complication and be on top if they want to roll over let them let them don't get tied in and rolled with them Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: You know what I mean? And stay on top. And so that that resonates really well and you gotta play little games and and fun stuff there. But just back to guys that wanna squeeze and play, they can't take on any information about the the game, the pathway, the ways out. They're not learning the roadmap. You know, it's they've blacked out their windows and they're just holding the wheel driving, hoping to win the race. And I'm like, that's wild. Yeah. Shaun: I love that ⁓ visual metaphor. Brian Ebersole: Yeah, so you gotta do the weird martial arts stuff. You gotta do some of the soft weird stuff. To even realize, ⁓ god, I can't even Yeah, like Okay, I'm mad that I'm losing this simple game over and over. I'm gonna try to win. And then you still can't win. Or when you do, it's like you went super athletic and maybe cheated and had a head start to win. Shaun: Yeah. Beautifully said. Brian Ebersole: And you'll do that a few times out athleting someone. But then all right, they've cottoned on to your one move, which is sprint. They're slower than you, but they figured out just how to defuse ya, you know, and then let's play the game. Like there's dudes in rugby, if you give them a bit of room with no one around, they'll blow everyone away. But you still have to figure out your way around everyone if the defense does their job well. So yeah. It's good having an athlete that wants to sprint sometimes. Everyone in the room gets that one defensive lesson in the same week. But eventually you gotta like mix in and play and jog and hang out with your team and figure out how all this mixes in because there's so much education in there. I can't need the dough for you, man. Like you gotta make your own pizza base. Chat about toppings and stuff we like all day, but if you don't need your own base, I don't know what to tell ya. And if you wanna be the unneedable dough Not let someone play, well have fun. Like it'd be really, really hard. Yeah, to get good, be a world champion. So yeah, the guys that come in even saying that, it's a red flag for us. It's please, we need to reset expectations. You're coming to play club sport, ⁓ and we need to treat each other like we're in a club together. Shaun: Well said. Yeah. ⁓ Brian Ebersole: to be the guy. Man, I'll go back to America. I'll make you guys like group shower. If we need to build some bonding that way. Like 10 dudes in a shower doing the thing. If you want to make fun of people, like that's gonna have consequences for years because you're gonna be on the same team. You know what I mean? You want to tease someone about a mole on their bum or whip someone with a towel on their bare bum and break skin like all that horse play and horse hockey all has to be managed. But I feel sometimes people get in their silos and like you said maybe even Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: here people get in their silo and just go I just want to be successful and it's like a lot of process and a lot of play and you this is not a sport with a structure that offers ⁓ like financial incentive reward for you trying. So it's it's definitely not ⁓ I mean gosh you could probably try John Madden football NFL on a PlayStation and and make more money as a hobby. Like I'm gonna try and practice all the time. Go do that. Like they have better tournaments where you can make, you know, a billion dollars to win the Australian National Bloody Video Game Tournament. True story, like their sponsorship and their revenue is pretty strong. You wanna go fight? Here's your $500. Three months of effort. And this is your 15th fight because you had an amateur career before you went pro. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: Better be doing this because you just want to get good at something and you like it. If you see something later on, we can talk. There's always that little crack in the clouds where you're like, I I'm actually pretty good and I'm still healthy. I'm getting good results, I'm still pretty healthy. Okay, now we can talk about any aspirations past, you know, beating most of the people in your local area and having the one or two interstate matches. Shaun: Mm. Brian Ebersole: That all has to come first. If you can't even beat the guy in your own town, I don't really want to fly you to Melbourne. But I will if it's a fair match. Like it happens a lot. But you know, once you get all right, I'm I've cleared e everyone in my state. Okay, let's get you over to Perth or Melbourne and Queensland to have a match. See if you can beat one of their better guys. You guys have you start litmus testing and you try to go international. But those international early paydays still aren't very good. Shaun: Men. Mm. Brian Ebersole: Portugal, Poland, you know, make three grand. After paying everyone, it's not it's not a wage, that's just it's paying year gym fees and stuff. So yeah, it's that makes this sport interesting, because the the true risk of like your actual health. Where if you try to go be professional on netball, you still have a job that you should. I don't think that many people are just playing netball. Shaun: Yeah. Brian Ebersole: just play you know what I mean trying to go to the Olympics just doing that. I'm certain that they're still like in some offices in Sydney, Canberra and Melbourne, like typing away and making calls and and working while they do that. Where we see a lot of these guys, I wanna go all in. Shaun: Man, thank you so much. Honestly, you you're such a man of embodied wisdom. I I'd I'd love to know who your mentors were. Probably another save it for another conversation. Brian Ebersole: Ha ha ha. Coaches were I got yeah yeah. I had some amazing coaches, you know, and when it came to even the UFC and how you present yourself, like we see all these guys that rah rah rah and they bark and this and that, like I'm cheeky and I'm playful, but when you get to that level like it turned into one of those things with talking like that, like I don't wanna go be insulting and truly embarrass the people that taught me. There's that little bit of like Connor McGregor and it's like good on you for being able to do that. I could not walk into my local grocery store after giving an interview like some of the ones he'd done. And feel good, you know what I mean? So yeah, you just gotta walk your path and do your thing. And I'm still goofy and obnoxious, and I've yelled silly stuff in public. We chatted about farting on an escalator. teaching my daughters that's the best way to do it if you're gonna do it in public. Elevators are off limits, I tell ⁓ but yeah, you still gotta be able to represent like your community and the people that it put into you as well. If you're gonna be on TV playing a sport and have people go, ⁓ that's a role model. ⁓ I wanna be on TV doing that too. Alright, well be one of the good ones. It's a little easier to be a normal dad having not been Shaun: Yeah, it's just comes back to that respect of Brian Ebersole: Now I don't have a yacht but interesting trade-off. So ⁓ yeah no worries Sean. Good to chat with y'all Shaun: Brian, I love it. Thank you so much for ⁓ for joining me today. It's an absolute ⁓ machine when it comes to knowledge, I think, and just understanding how humans operate in systems and how people can learn in the best way possible. Like I'm really, really grateful for our conversation today. So thank you. Brian Ebersole: Back at ya. Thanks for letting me espouse chat. Much obliged. Shaun: ⁓ So is it for the episode of the reset today. If you're ready to stop being a passenger and start being the architect of your legacy, make sure you head on over to my website, shauntucker.com.au And also if you would love to see what ⁓ Train Alta is all about and look and check out the 20-week fighter warrior training camp, which I did last year. ⁓ there might be a hint at me doing another camp. Let's see. ⁓ yeah, make sure you head on at Over to Train Alta their website, and I'll make sure I link it in the show notes. But remember, most people wait for their life to change. We here, we architect ⁓ the choice. So change your state, choose how you show up. Thanks for listening in. Just do it. Thanks so much, Brian. I appreciate you, man. Brian Ebersole: Sponsored by Nike, just do it. Pretty much. Cheers Shaun