Latest / Pop Culture Junkie® / Fetishized: A Conversation with Kaila Yu

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Fetishized: A Conversation with Kaila Yu · Pop Culture Junkie®

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♪ Entertain me, entertain me right now ♪
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- Hello and welcome to the Pop Culture Junkie podcast.
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I am joined today by a very cool, very special guest.
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Kaila Yu is an LA-based author whose book Fetishized:
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A Reckoning with Yellow Fever, Feminism and Beauty
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will be published by Penguin Random House's
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Round Publishing on August 19.
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In addition to her upcoming memoir,
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Kaila is a travel food and culture writer
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whose work has been featured in the Los Angeles Times,
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The New York Times, Rolling Stone, National Geographic
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and more.
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But there's even more.
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Kaila was the lead singer for the band Nylon Pink
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was an import model and appeared in The Fast and Furious:
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Tokyo Drift and is a certified scuba diver,
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free diver and a mermaid.
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That is the most amazing biography I've ever read.
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- Welcome to the show, Kaila.
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- It's so random, Kaila.
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- It's just like, so it's like just a encapsulation
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of the disorganization I feel like, I think.
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Nothing else, anything to do with each other.
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- I love that I'm reading it.
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I'm like, "Wait a minute, she's a mermaid too."
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(Kaila laughs)
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- Wonderful.
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Well, thank you so much for being on the show, Kaila.
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I am so excited to meet you.
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So when I first read the title of your book,
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“Fetishized: A Reckoning with Yellow Fever,
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Feminism and Beauty," I immediately said,
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"Yes, I want to have her on the show."
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I think any chance to talk about feminism intersectionality
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for myself as a white woman to understand other things,
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other cultures beyond my own
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and just teach the audience things they might not know.
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I was so excited to have you.
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So in the intro to the book, examples of encounters
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with what you called Asiaphiles.
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Can you talk a little bit about what that is
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and kind of the overarching themes of the book?
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- Yeah, Asiaphiles or like someone who has an Asian fetish
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or yellow fever is like a man who exclusively dates Asian girls
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and kind of sexualizes them or just kind of has this thing
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towards them.
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That's like kind of a general definition, but there are men
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who date Asian women and maybe more than one
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who don't fall under a fetishist category.
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That's why it's kind of murky and confusing
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and kind of sucks if you don't have an Asian fetish
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and have an Asian girlfriend, you know,
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'cause you might get lumped with these other
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more questionable men.
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- Yeah, so it says like especially white men, right?
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But it's really just men who kind of fetishize
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Asian women in general.
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- Yeah, it happens to be, well the thing is,
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I guess I've never thought about this,
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but it might only apply to white men
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because the real true idea of the fetish
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and why it doesn't work the other way
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because people always accuse Asian women
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of having a white fetish because they do white guys so much.
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But the whole part of the Asian fetish
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and what makes it toxic and sometimes
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eventually lead to violence and that's why it's bad
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is because there's a history of colonialism
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of like raping and pillaging Asian countries
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basically.
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So say black men don't have a history
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of doing that to Asian women,
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so it wouldn't really apply either.
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I would argue that Asian men,
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I don't know if you can fetishize Asian women
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if you're Asian men, but Asian men invented
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the submissive Asian woman by forcing her
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to have no rights, not now necessarily Asian,
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but in like Asian China or whatever.
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They used to bind women's feet simple.
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There's like how much more submissive can get than that.
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That's like the ultimate in making her helpless.
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Yeah, yeah, I've seen pictures of that.
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I mean, and just kind of like learned about it
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through history and such about the feet binding.
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And that's just, I can't imagine how physically painful
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that is.
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I guess before we dive too much more into your book,
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is this the first book that you've ever written?
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Have you written before this?
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I kind of wrote a book with my best friend,
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but it was self published, so I don't really count it.
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This is like my first like with a publisher book.
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Yeah.
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That's amazing.
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And what made you specifically want to talk about this topic?
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It was very much an accident.
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Like all Asian women have experienced the Asian fetish.
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And we're just like, oh, whatever.
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It's just like a thing you deal with as a Asian woman.
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But I, what happened is during the pandemic,
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and I never wanted to write a memoir.
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During the pandemic, I became a travel writer,
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and I was working and traveling and doing that.
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And the pandemic happened and canceled all my writing
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and all my trips.
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And then the right side was that I always kind of
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wanted to learn TikTok.
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So I had all the time in the world to learn TikTok,
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which is like important, even as a writer to have as a platform
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now.
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So I did that, and I did what we call throwing pizza at all.
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I tried all kinds of content and just saw what hit for me,
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cooking content, didn't work, sobriety content, whatever.
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Everything I tried didn't work.
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But when I posted about Asian American history
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or pop culture in the 2000s, that really hit--
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Interesting.
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--and I was really active during that time
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in the import scene, which was kind of the subculture
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that inspired the fast and furious franchise.
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So I started posting a lot about that.
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And I was doing that for a year and having
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a lot of fun with it.
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And then the Atlanta spa shootings happened.
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And that's when this sex-addicted man, white man,
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went to a different massage parlors and shot eight people.
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And six of them happened to be Asian women.
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And this is also in the middle of the pandemic
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when so many Asian people were experiencing Asian hate,
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like never before.
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So this happened while that was going on.
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And then the media tried to say it was not racially motivated.
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And then the Asian community really had a roar over that
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because it clearly was.
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And for me, clearly was motivated by the Asian fetish.
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So I kind of reflected back because I used
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to be a peanut model and I posed for Playboy.
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And I would pose in Chinese dresses and act Asian.
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So I was like, oh, how much did I contribute to this?
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So consciously.
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But I was courting or objectifying myself for men.
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And that kind of resulted in an article for Newsweek.
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And then that kind of got some attention.
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And then I was like, oh, somehow that sparked,
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maybe there's a book in here.
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Oh, that's amazing.
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It's so interesting to that fine line as women between,
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I'm doing this and it's empowering me.
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Or is this objectifying me?
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I in college worked as a waitress at a bar.
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And we would wear little school girl outfits and dance
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on the bar.
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And I made great tips.
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And I was putting myself through school.
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And I thought, I'm in charge of this.
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But I was serving beer and dancing for old guys throwing money
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at me.
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That's so hard.
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Because when in the 2000s, early 2000s,
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it's like post feminism.
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So we were taught, like sexuality.
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We're empowered and sexual.
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And we could be a sexy and have as much sex as we want.
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And we called that empowerment, which is like, yes,
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you should be allowed to do those things.
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But like putting that at the forefront is also not empowerment.
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Exactly.
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Like sex positivity, yes, you don't
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be ashamed of your sexuality or try to hide it.
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But at the same time, does that have
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to be the main thing that empowers you?
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Especially if it's at the will of men who are--
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So hard, because we live in the patriarchy, right?
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And then inescapable.
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And under that umbrella, the easiest mainline to power
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is youth and beauty and sex.
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So of course, a young woman's going to maybe lean towards sex.
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It's just like, oh, that works so well.
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Absolutely.
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And I think that's a mainline through the book,
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which I am still reading.
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I haven't finished yet, but I love so much.
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I want to get a physical copy.
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Of course.
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Yes, of just how to balance the pressures you feel
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to fit in with societal beauty standards.
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And you know, you talk about like double eyelid surgery
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that's prevalent in Asian cultures and with women.
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Can you talk about that a little bit?
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Yeah, that kind of came up right now.
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So it's very timely.
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I don't know if you watch Love Island.
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I do, yes.
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Yeah.
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So I don't know if you're aware of--
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and this will be, I guess, old by then.
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That's OK.
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Love Island is always popular.
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Yes.
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So one of the contestants got kicked off the show.
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Her name's Sierra Ortega.
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And she said, an Asian slur that starts with a C
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and refers to our eyes.
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And she said it a number of times.
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And I believe her when she says she just didn't really know
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it was a slur.
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And the reason I believe her is I made a video about it.
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And a lot of people were genuinely did not know it was a slur.
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And some people were arguing vociferously
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against why it was a slur.
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And we're like, we're Asian.
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We're telling you it's a slur, so at the end.
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But there are people arguing against it.
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And I ended up writing an article for Teen Vogue about it.
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And it's horrible.
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Because when people make mistakes now, she was saying people
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called ICE on her family and people
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were giving death threats.
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It does not need to be that level of whatever.
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We're just cancelling people for--
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I don't say it's minor.
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It's not minor what she did, but it's not
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like Harvey Weinstein level.
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You know what do you mean?
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Yeah, this could have been a learning opportunity for her.
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Obviously, it was wrong.
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And she-- we've got some consequences,
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which was the correct thing to do.
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But she is so young and a woman of color herself
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that it's like calling ICE on her, don't solve racism
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with racism.
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You guys would be obviously--
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Yeah.
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--if we're trying to call her out for being a racist,
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then don't be racist after her.
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[LAUGHTER]
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--experiously absurd.
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Yeah, but that is shocking to me that so many people don't know
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that that word is a slur.
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Yeah, so it was a really good thing that I
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happened to think because it's a learning experience.
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Because people genuinely didn't know.
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And she did use it in a not good way.
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She was basically saying my eyes are too Asian looking,
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so I'm going to get some Botox to fix them.
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So that's why the Asian community found it so offensive.
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Because we--
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you know, growing up the most common insult
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is about the eyes.
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And then they had that pulling back the eyes,
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like racial slur, I guess, they made--
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Yeah.
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And Miley Cyrus did it in some pictures
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back in the day.
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I think-- yeah, yeah, there's pictures of her doing that too.
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I mean, years ago, I think when she was like a child.
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OK.
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But oh, my god, there was.
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Miley, no.
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[LAUGHTER]
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But it's like, I'm a very forgiving person.
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Like, I feel like when I was on drugs in my space,
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and the two, that I'm probably sent some shit to people,
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you know?
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So like, everybody does dumb things when they're young.
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Like, we can't hold them.
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We can call it out and then let it go if they're like genuinely
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apologetic and don't do it again.
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Exactly.
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Give people the chance to grow and to learn
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if they double down on it.
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OK, now bye.
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Now we don't need that platform anymore, girl.
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Yes.
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So you talk in the book about growing up
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and wanting a deeper connection with your father.
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And that's a lot where the mermaid stuff came in,
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kind of talking about your aerial and comparing him
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to King Triton.
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Can you talk a little bit about that for people who,
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as you can say, people who haven't read the book,
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but I don't think anyone besides me has read the book yet.
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[LAUGHTER]
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Yeah, the little mermaid was so influential on me growing up.
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It was like that cartoon.
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And we had so much less media then.
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And we had no social media.
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So we had like limited movies and TV.
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And I just watched that movie probably hundreds of times
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and acted it out.
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And I didn't-- you know, obviously none of us
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got that a lot of the Disney fairy tales at the time
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are pretty patriarchal in like what
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they're teaching women their potential is.
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It was like very little potential, actually.
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To get married and have a man is--
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Yeah, basically.
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--be extremely thin.
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[LAUGHTER]
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But yeah, so what I bring up in the chapter about my dad
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and the little mermaid.
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And I always want to preface this with like my dad
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was an amazing dad.
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Like he was kind.
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He never did anything bad to us.
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And he provided in every way.
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And he was present.
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But he was just-- he's introverted.
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He's Asian.
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They're not taught to interact with kids the way we are nowadays
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in America.
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But so he really kept himself warm.
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And I'm someone who just desperately--
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I love language, his words of affirmation.
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And I probably really needed a dad who was telling me
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like you're beautiful and you know whatever the things that
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are dads tell to girls.
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And I didn't get that.
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And my family, I think Asians don't say I love you
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to each other either.
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Or like parents.
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So I didn't get that growing up either.
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They still love in different ways.
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But I compare it to King Triton because there's
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two versions of King Triton.
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There's King Triton in the sanitize the little mermaid
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Disney version.
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And I don't know if everybody knows,
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but the original little mermaid, which I think
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is a Hans Christian.
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I forgot who was around.
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I think so.
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Yeah.
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A lot of his fairy tales were actually horror stories.
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They're horrifying.
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Yeah.
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People are blood and murder.
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Yeah, there may be meant to be cautionary tales.
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But basically, this little mermaid falls in love
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with the princess the same.
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And then she goes to the witch in the witch
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like cuts off her tongue and takes away her voice.
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And then makes her into a person.
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But it's extremely painful.
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And every time she walks, it feels like knives
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are stabbing her feet and her feet bleed.
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Oh, my gosh.
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That's something that didn't happen in the Disney version.
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So she's willing to endure this bleeding from her feet
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pain for this guy she met on a beach.
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In the end, he doesn't fall in love with her.
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He marries a witch.
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And then she commits suicide.
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Oh my god.
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Why does the dark part of me kind of wish they would have
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made that?
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I would have made that.
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But she Disney takes this, was probably
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supposed to be some kind of like learning cautionary tales.
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You not do that.
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And makes it into like, oh, she wins the prince
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and happily ever after you should change yourself
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and alter your body for a man.
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Yay.
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Absolutely.
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I feel like that was so prevalent.
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I mean, I'm in my mid 30s and growing up,
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and I saw lots of stuff like that in cartoons and such too.
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And yeah, she wins the man in the end without even speaking
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to her.
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Without even speaking to her.
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It makes no sense.
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It reminds me of in love actually, that movie,
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he falls in love and doesn't even speak the same language
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as one of the women and just falls in love with the way she looks.
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Right.
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And then there's in that same movie,
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the quote unquote fat girl who, oh, she
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found a man even though she's so grotesquely large,
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and she's like a size four.
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You know?
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But those things were, yeah, so fed to us,
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I feel like.
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And we didn't even realize it at the time.
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Yeah, it's like good.
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That we're looking back at the 2000s
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and questioning a lot of everything.
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Absolutely.
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I totally agree.
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You mentioned in the book too that Kyla,
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you is not your given name and that it's a name that you
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chose for yourself.
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Can you talk about that a little bit?
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Yeah.
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So I wanted to get into pinup modeling.
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And certainly my very strict Asian parents
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were not going to be OK with that.
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So that was a big reason for changing my name.
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And also my legal name is Elaine Yang.
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And it just doesn't sound like a very sexy pinup name to me.
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So yeah.
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There was no question that I was going to change my name,
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really.
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Well, I like your name.
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I like both of your names.
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I love that.
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I would be remiss without mentioning this again,
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because we talked about it in your elaborate introduction.
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But you were in the Fast and the Furious Tokyo drift.
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That's amazing.
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It's like something that comes up a lot with Asian Americans.
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And I bring up in the book that it's actually kind of sad.
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OK.
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I loved being in the movie.
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It was so much fun.
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And I was in two scenes where you start the races.
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They're the memorable scenes.
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But if you count my actual screen time,
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it's maybe 10 seconds.
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And I say the same word twice in two different scenes.
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But Asian Americans sometimes come up
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and they're like, oh my god, that scene was so iconic.
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Blah, blah, blah.
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But a white person would never say that about a white girl
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in a scene.
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It's just like because there was no representation.
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So any little thing was celebrated.
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It's like, oh my god, this is so great.
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Like 10 seconds on the screen.
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Oh, wow, that's interesting.
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Yeah.
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Yeah, just-- I mean, it's at the same time,
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like cool thanks.
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That's memorable and that's great.
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But just kind of speaks to how much more representation
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there clearly needs to be in one sentence.
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Yeah, there's been so much since then.
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But yeah, there can always be more.
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Yeah, absolutely.
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I've also been listening to some nylon pink
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the last couple days.
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Yes.
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Oh my gosh, so good.
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And all of your solo work too, incredible.
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Let's talk a little bit about-- yeah, your music career.
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And you said that you didn't really enjoy performing live.
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Can you talk a little bit about the band
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and just your experience being an artist in that way?
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Yeah, I think I was a pinup model.
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And so in the Asian community, I had a following from that.
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But I also got a lot of hate for it,
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because it wasn't like something respectable to do.
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So I think I got into music.
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I'd love to sing.
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But I think I got into music because I was like,
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I got to prove that I have a talent.
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And then I had a platform in my space.
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So I had a bunch of followers.
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And it just seemed kind of logical.
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I think I always had a dream of being a singer when I was a kid.
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But as an Asian, you don't think that's possible,
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because there's like, who's doing it?
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Like, no one.
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There was literally not a single person I could look up to.
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So when I had that platform, my space
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was finally able to just launch music myself.
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And then I got into that.
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And then eventually I started a band.
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What I really loved about it was being with a bunch of my best friends,
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touring the world.
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But once we started touring, I just really hated performing.
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Toring is stressful.
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Yeah, I can imagine.
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And I grew up watching the MTV movie awards.
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So I wanted to come out and do one song,
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one huge blowout song, and then leave.
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But at home I do like 10 songs.
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That's amazing.
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That's amazing.
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No, that's totally understandable.
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I absolutely agree.
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Imagine doing those 10 songs, then driving to a city
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and the next day and doing those 10 songs and driving to a city.
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It's not fun.
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Yep.
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And wearing a lot of the same costumes.
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And I'm sure you're kind of using the same jokes
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and one-liners every night.
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Yeah, I mean, somebody will love it.
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But it's not naturally my love.
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Yeah.
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Do you see yourself releasing any more music in the future?
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Or is it, you know, you never know?
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Or totally no?
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Never again.
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Yeah, actually.
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I will say my best friend, Kiki, I will shout her out,
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has joined the smashing pumpkins.
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And I'm so proud of her.
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So it's amazing.
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Yeah, she's been touring with them for a year.
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So some of my bandmates have gone on
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to continue their music careers.
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Good for--
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See, and you--
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like the launching pad there and there.
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Like the fly Kiki.
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Go fly via smashing pumpkin.
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Oh, I love that.
21:27
No, that's so cool that you, you know,
21:28
you tried so many things.
21:29
You want to see what works best for you.
21:31
And what do you feel like you feel
21:33
most comfortable doing?
21:34
Like what's your passion?
21:36
I'm an introvert.
21:38
So I actually, I think I really love writing,
21:40
because I just can sit in--
21:42
like when the pandemic happened, I was like, oh my god,
21:45
this is great.
21:46
I don't have to see anyone or talk to anyone
21:48
or go to any meetings.
21:50
And I enjoyed myself.
21:52
Like I was not lonely at all.
21:55
I will say what I love most is travel writing
21:58
in particular, just because I love to travel.
22:01
Yeah.
22:02
But that's probably my happy place.
22:05
Awesome.
22:05
So let's take a quick break.
22:07
And then speaking of writing, we're
22:08
going to dive even more into fetishized.
22:11
So fetishized is more than just the story of your career.
22:19
You talk at length about your own internalized racism
22:23
and sexism.
22:24
Your complex feelings about being an import model.
22:27
And as you mentioned, kind of participating
22:29
in the culture that fetishizes and dehumanizes Asian women,
22:34
can we talk a bit more about kind of just how you balance
22:37
like those feelings of being complicit
22:41
and acting in the thing that you're speaking out against?
22:44
Well, the thing is I didn't think that at the time
22:48
as a 20-year-old.
22:50
Or I guess I was like 19 when I got started.
22:53
I was just like, I'm like getting to travel the world
22:57
and post for magazines.
22:58
Like, this is so amazing.
23:00
You look at literally what I thought then.
23:02
And I was in the culture where it was sexy is celebrated.
23:07
Playboy was like a gold standard.
23:11
Playboy was on TV.
23:13
Every guy wanted to be Hugh Hefner, little kids,
23:17
wore Playboy logos.
23:19
It was very, very mainstream.
23:22
And FHM and stuff, they're not big anymore,
23:25
but they were huge back then.
23:26
So I don't think any of us during that time
23:29
requesting anything is only decades later now
23:32
that I look back and I'm like, oh, you know?
23:35
Yeah.
23:37
Yeah, no.
23:38
We kind of talked about that pressure
23:42
and the feeling that you have to be beautiful
23:44
and participate in culture and things like that in order
23:46
to be accepted.
23:48
What would you say to women and specifically Asian women
23:52
who are thinking about joining modeling and kind
23:54
of going that route as well?
23:56
Do you feel like it's always going to be dehumanizing
24:00
and something that people can fetish,
24:03
or is there a way that people can do it?
24:06
So I want to stress that I'm not putting judgment
24:10
on any other woman who poses for Playboy and does these things.
24:13
For me personally, it wasn't authentic.
24:16
And like to who I truly am.
24:18
To someone else, it might be very authentic to who they are.
24:22
So it's really discovering, I was seeking validation.
24:26
I had a very low self-esteem, so I was like trying
24:29
to fill that validation with male attention.
24:32
And it felt a lot like validation.
24:35
And it felt like it filled that hole.
24:37
Maybe you're here as a super healthy, high self-esteem woman
24:42
and you want to do that.
24:43
And that's not why you're pursuing this.
24:47
I'd say go ahead and like, no judgment whatsoever.
24:53
But if you're a girl with low self-esteem,
24:55
I would maybe I could have at that time
24:59
invested more on working in other ways
25:02
to heal that part of me.
25:04
I don't know if I would have had the ability.
25:06
I was on doing a lot of drugs and alcohol at the time.
25:08
So I probably therapy or whatever could have helped me
25:13
wouldn't have been that helpful.
25:15
But it's just a more--
25:18
my advice would be maybe just question things.
25:21
Like question your motivations.
25:23
Like really soul search and see if this is like,
25:27
what are your authentic reasons for pursuing this?
25:30
I think that's great advice.
25:32
Talking about my own time when I was doing some modeling
25:36
and dancing on bar tops and such.
25:37
It was definitely a low self-esteem thing for me too.
25:40
It was like getting over a breakup.
25:42
But I'm like, oh god, he made me feel yucky.
25:44
I'm going to go do this and prove them wrong.
25:46
So it's-- yeah, that soul searching
25:48
and like, what are my motivations behind this?
25:51
And is this actually going to increase my self-esteem
25:54
or is this going to make me feel like an object?
25:57
Yeah.
25:58
It's very temporary that good feeling.
26:02
Yeah, absolutely.
26:03
So you've mentioned a couple times,
26:05
your drug and alcohol use and that you're sober now.
26:08
Congratulations.
26:10
Can you talk a little bit about your sobriety journey
26:12
and kind of what brought you there?
26:14
Yeah, I'm 11 years sober now.
26:16
Awesome.
26:17
I didn't have a very dramatic--
26:19
oh my god, I woke up and got sober.
26:22
I think I was just getting older.
26:23
And I was like, this is sad.
26:25
My life is not working.
26:26
And it's not cute to be doing coke on the weekends or like,
26:30
weekdays anymore.
26:31
And I've got to like, figure this out.
26:34
Because my life was very chaotic.
26:38
And all these--
26:39
you know, when you're in that lifestyle,
26:41
there's just like scummy people that are around you.
26:45
And you're wondering why you're always
26:47
getting screwed with or lied to.
26:49
You're probably doing the same thing to other people.
26:52
So yeah, it was kind of just obvious.
26:57
You're getting older, you need to stop.
26:59
Now you need to settle down now.
27:01
Let's just do this.
27:01
Kind of the natural just--
27:02
Yeah.
27:03
Well, 11 years is amazing.
27:05
Congratulations.
27:06
Yeah.
27:07
That's wonderful.
27:08
Thank you.
27:08
I do kind of wish that I had the ability.
27:12
Because I do have friends who are like, oh,
27:14
we're going to like go to whatever.
27:17
And do some coke once a year.
27:19
And they can do that.
27:20
Yeah.
27:21
But I can't.
27:22
If I did it once, it would maybe turn into all year.
27:25
Yeah.
27:25
Yes.
27:26
We just sounds great, but it's going to--
27:28
Yes.
27:29
--is spiral into something.
27:30
No, that's-- see?
27:31
And that's also great, like self-intubition and knowing.
27:34
No.
27:35
I don't think I can do that.
27:37
Yeah.
27:38
[LAUGHTER]
27:40
Oh, gosh.
27:40
Well, that's amazing.
27:41
Congratulations again.
27:43
I know we talked about this a little bit in the top.
27:46
But you know, you cover in your book
27:48
the really serious and scary topic about violence
27:52
against Asian-American specific islander
27:55
is Asian women, including the horrible murder--
27:58
mass murder set that you mentioned.
28:00
And that was somebody who was addicted to porn,
28:03
specifically Asian women, right?
28:06
I don't know if he was--
28:08
we don't know what porn he watched.
28:09
But we know he frequented those massage parlors.
28:11
So we know he was into that, partially.
28:15
Yeah.
28:15
Absolutely.
28:17
You also say that porn is often the truest representation
28:20
of societal beliefs at a given moment.
28:23
Can you expand a little bit on what you mean by that?
28:26
It's funny, because porn's always
28:28
like at the height of technological advances.
28:31
Because it's like part of the reason,
28:34
I think, video started streaming was because porn
28:37
on geography was trying to figure out
28:39
how to provide porn to the masses.
28:44
But I also think it's like a place
28:48
where free speech is rampant and not really regulated.
28:53
Yeah.
28:53
So you do get maybe the lower truest representation
28:57
of what society may be thinking at a time.
29:01
That makes sense.
29:01
And I think a lot of young men are shaped
29:06
by what they see in porn and kind of their expectations
29:08
of what it's like to have sex, and what it's
29:11
like to have sex with a woman and what they expect a woman to do.
29:16
Yeah.
29:16
It's like choking is just expected.
29:18
Now, I'm nothing wrong with it, but that was not expected
29:23
in when I was growing up.
29:25
Yeah.
29:26
That was--
29:27
It's so interesting now.
29:28
And it's, you know, guys, you lose your virginity
29:31
and they expect you to just be screaming and be a squirter.
29:35
Like, because they grew up, we could be
29:37
watch that in porn.
29:39
And it's like, that's just not the reality of what a woman--
29:44
all the time is going to be like.
29:46
Yeah, I read this study that said there
29:49
is like some men who grew up on porn
29:54
and just can't have sex with a real woman,
29:57
because it's just not--
29:59
if they don't look like that in real life,
30:02
and they don't prefer like that in real life.
30:04
So yeah.
30:06
So it's very damaging, I think.
30:09
I absolutely agree.
30:10
And again, we're not shame anybody who is a porn actor
30:14
who watches porn.
30:15
I think it's again just like, what are your intentions here?
30:18
What are you getting into for?
30:20
And I know there's porn from the female perspective,
30:23
and there's ones that are trying to be more empowering.
30:26
So--
30:28
Yeah, I mean, the porn that I grew up with just seems so tame now,
30:33
like the Jenna James and the fancy sets where they would be
30:39
on a ship or something.
30:41
They were just like in a band-in, mansion.
30:45
Yeah.
30:46
But now it's just like some guy in a room.
30:49
You know, there's barely any plotliners
30:52
to where you're anything.
30:53
I need a plot, damn.
30:54
I want to know why they're doing this.
30:56
Or maybe it's funny that they thought
31:02
and needed a plot before.
31:03
Maybe that's why you're part.
31:06
We're just younger people are like,
31:09
I'm sorry, you want them to be doing what?
31:11
No, they're just going to have sex.
31:13
I want to know why.
31:15
I don't think me.
31:16
I don't think me.
31:19
Oh my gosh.
31:20
I want to take one more quick break and then dive a little bit
31:23
into a topic that I find very interesting, which
31:26
is anime culture.
31:28
[MUSIC PLAYING]
31:31
So as we mentioned before the break,
31:35
I am interested in talking to you a little bit about anime
31:40
and how that kind of plays into the fetishization
31:43
of Asian women.
31:45
So I am a big anime fan.
31:48
I made Olivia watch some anime with me for one of our episodes.
31:52
Did you never watch it?
31:54
No, she's definitely not an anime person.
31:57
I mean, I think she's maybe watched Sailor Moon or whatever,
32:00
but I made her watch a tag on Titan and all these ones
32:03
that I really like.
32:05
And she liked them.
32:06
But I do see a lot in anime is that there's something
32:10
called fan service.
32:12
And a lot of it is the girl falls over.
32:15
And her skirt flies up.
32:17
And her boobs are out.
32:18
And her panties are showing.
32:19
Or her clothes rip off entirely.
32:22
And a lot of these are underage characters.
32:24
Yes.
32:25
Can you talk a little bit about why you think that's prevalent
32:29
in anime and general or why?
32:31
I mean, that's problematic when it comes
32:34
to the fetishization of Asian women?
32:36
Well, I love Japan.
32:38
And I love so many things about it.
32:40
Me too.
32:41
But I wouldn't want to be a woman there.
32:44
You know the age of consent only changed from 13 to 16
32:52
within the past 10 years or something.
32:54
Like something very recent.
32:56
So--
32:56
16 now?
32:57
Yeah.
32:58
I know.
32:58
16, I think.
32:59
That's not much better.
33:00
Yeah.
33:01
So that just kind of shows you where things are on that alone.
33:06
And like the sexual, I guess, fetishes
33:09
and weird things get really weird.
33:11
Like there's tentacle port.
33:12
Like there's just weird stuff there
33:14
that you may have never heard of here.
33:16
But also there's like this culture that came up.
33:22
It used to be called--
33:25
I don't know what the Japanese term is-- but now it's called J.K.
33:29
And I forgot that stands for--
33:32
but it's basically--
33:34
so school girls became fetishized at some point.
33:38
Yeah.
33:38
All the girls at school were school uniforms.
33:41
Yeah, yeah.
33:41
So middle-aged men started to be really into this.
33:45
Yeah.
33:46
These girls would then like sell the uniform,
33:50
used uniforms, and used underwear.
33:52
I mean, so much that there were some bending machines
33:55
with used underwear in that.
33:57
Yeah.
33:57
So very much the school girl was a fetish in Japan.
34:02
And then that crossed over to here.
34:04
But I think, yeah, there's just--
34:08
I don't want to say it's acceptable,
34:10
but it's not uncommon for middle-aged men to be--
34:16
I mean, I guess it's not entirely uncommon either.
34:20
Well, yeah.
34:21
Maybe a little more visible there,
34:23
because it's not-- it wasn't illegal before, you know?
34:27
Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
34:29
I visited Japan a couple years ago and went into one
34:32
of the sex shops.
34:34
And it's pretty standard in the first couple levels,
34:38
vibrators and such, and cute costumes.
34:41
But at the very top level of the store,
34:43
they let my husband go up and they wouldn't let me.
34:46
Oh, really?
34:47
Yeah.
34:47
And of course, I was like, you have to report back what you saw.
34:51
You need to tell me exactly what was that thing.
34:53
And he said that it was small, hairless torsos
34:59
that you could be intimate with.
35:02
We want to--
35:03
Like, sex dolls that you-- but a lot of them,
35:06
he said looked like young women or underage girls.
35:11
Oh, wow.
35:13
Yeah.
35:13
And so I was just kind of shocked that that was something
35:16
that was so just clearly there that he was--
35:18
I got shocked that any man could go into.
35:21
Exactly.
35:22
Yep.
35:23
But the women--
35:24
Nope.
35:24
We weren't allowed to go up to that final level.
35:26
OK.
35:27
And I could be wrong, but I think it might
35:29
be legal to get blow jobs, like pay for them there.
35:33
It's real nice.
35:34
Yeah.
35:35
Don't quote me on that.
35:35
I think so.
35:37
Yeah.
35:38
Do you think that there is some kind of overlap between culture
35:41
there, like women are kind of seen as, you know,
35:44
like, demure, like that, you know, Asian stereotype
35:48
of their more--
35:50
what's the word I'm looking for?
35:51
I guess--
35:52
submissive.
35:53
Exactly.
35:54
And then at the same time, it's that hypersexualization.
35:58
And I guess that's kind of like that Asian trope
35:59
in general, right?
36:00
Of she's submissive in demure.
36:03
So we need to conquer her and change her, right?
36:08
Yeah.
36:09
And you see that's a lot in anime.
36:10
Like, when I picture anime, it's always
36:12
some girl with really big boobs like down
36:15
around in her short skirt.
36:16
Like, that is just your stereotypical anime girl, right?
36:20
Yeah.
36:21
So I think that kind of mainstreams that--
36:23
because anime has crossed over and become really huge
36:26
outside of Japan and just made that image even more mainstreamed.
36:31
Yeah.
36:32
Yeah.
36:33
When it comes to the over-sexualization
36:35
and like fetishization of Asian women in general,
36:37
do you think that there's strides that have been made in,
36:41
you know, recent years, or do you see it getting worse?
36:44
And what do you think society could do in general to move
36:48
in the right direction?
36:49
I think we're definitely making progress.
36:51
I think a lot of its representation.
36:54
So growing up, all I saw was like Asian school girls on TV
36:58
or like some sexy kung fu lady.
37:02
Yeah.
37:03
Yeah.
37:04
But like, now you see all kinds of representations,
37:08
like, you know, in Squid Game, there's like--
37:11
women being multifaceted characters,
37:14
and they are not sexy at all, you know?
37:17
Yeah, I think the way to combat it against it
37:20
is just to show Asian women is complicated, you know,
37:25
women with emotions, not just sexual women who will obey
37:32
your every need.
37:33
You know what I mean?
37:33
Yeah, just an object.
37:34
Yeah, exactly.
37:36
You know, you mentioned the book, too, that it's a goal
37:38
for a lot of men.
37:39
And they wrap about it in some songs of acquiring,
37:42
like, an Asian woman.
37:43
Like, she's a trophy, right?
37:46
I'm sure you've experienced this so much throughout your life,
37:48
especially when you were a model, right?
37:51
Is there anything that specifically, like,
37:52
stands out in your mind?
37:53
I know that story you tell in the first chapter.
37:56
If you want to tease that a little bit.
37:59
Yeah.
38:00
Basically, there's a guy friend that I had who
38:03
said, if you line up 100 Asian women and 100 white women,
38:09
the 100 Asian women will be more attractive.
38:12
Send something to that effect.
38:13
And he said it in real quick, people just like--
38:16
Just a mixed company.
38:17
[LAUGHTER]
38:19
Bulldoin.
38:20
And then everyone's like, yeah, because he
38:22
was like kind of powerful.
38:23
So everyone was like, nobody was going to question.
38:26
But just like, I feel like the audacity that the statements
38:30
are made sometimes is kind of like many of my Asian girlfriends.
38:36
This is a common thing, like, oh, usually white guy.
38:40
Well, like, come up and say, like, I've never
38:41
been with Asian women before.
38:43
Oh, god.
38:44
I really like is that your pick-up line?
38:46
Yeah.
38:47
Oh, I'm so-- I really want to be the one that--
38:49
Yeah.
38:50
[LAUGHTER]
38:52
Or like, I love Asian women.
38:54
And then you're like, oh, well, I don't want to--
38:56
that doesn't make me feel special either.
38:58
You know?
38:59
Yeah, that's a good point, too.
39:01
Just-- oh, I have a thing for people--
39:03
like, Asian-- like, this homogeneous group of people,
39:06
or like, I have a thing for, I don't know, any type of person.
39:09
Just like, well, what makes me specifically special
39:12
that you want to be with, then my personality, anything at all?
39:16
No, just because I am an Asian woman.
39:18
And what I think makes the fetish so damaging--
39:21
because yeah, at some level, it maybe feels like--
39:25
in a way, it felt like a compliment to me when I was younger,
39:28
because I was so nerdy growing up.
39:30
So it's like, oh, there are guys that like me, you know?
39:33
So it was like something when I had nothing.
39:36
But the point of it is that you're interchangeable.
39:39
You're object.
39:40
You're disposable.
39:41
Like, Nicholas Cage, you know, just a new younger Asian
39:46
wife next time, or like post-malone right now.
39:50
He had an Asian fiance.
39:52
I feel like she was like 30, and they had a baby together.
39:56
And now he's like just all around town with this like,
39:59
20-year-old college student Asian, just like--
40:02
God.
40:03
Buying her gifts and just like, parading her around.
40:06
And I'm like, wow, her--
40:07
his poor ex-fiancise, like really disrespectful.
40:10
Yeah, absolutely.
40:11
Just that-- yeah, you're just interchangeable.
40:13
Let me just move on to the next one.
40:15
That's just horrifying.
40:17
And just so wrapped in misogynia, like--
40:19
Yeah.
40:20
You did mention, you know, you think that things are kind
40:22
of getting better.
40:24
Is there any representation that you see out there?
40:28
You mentioned squid games that you think is kind of important
40:31
for people, especially white people, to watch, to kind of like
40:34
see guys.
40:35
Like, you know, let's--
40:37
I don't know.
40:37
Like, what's your favorite Asian representation, I guess,
40:40
in TV right now?
40:41
I think I really enjoyed beef.
40:43
That's a little bit older.
40:44
I love beef.
40:45
Yeah.
40:46
I mean, that was just really unexpected characters,
40:48
and they weren't perfect.
40:50
You know, they were very flawed.
40:52
But it just showed Asians in such a different way
40:55
for both men and women.
40:57
Black pink, I love so much.
40:59
I think so.
41:00
They're still sexy and stuff, but every pop star
41:02
is, in my opinion.
41:04
But they are not--
41:06
because I had a argument with somebody, not a argument.
41:09
But they were saying, like, I think
41:10
they're still playing into the fetish a little bit.
41:13
And I'm like, well, if you compare them
41:15
to any other pop star, they are so tame.
41:18
You know, they're-- yeah.
41:20
I absolutely agree.
41:21
And I do think there is that we don't want to say
41:24
that Asian women aren't allowed to be sexy.
41:26
Exactly.
41:27
Exactly.
41:28
They're sexuality in the minute that they do.
41:30
You're like, oh, you're just trying to play
41:31
a subfetch.
41:32
It's like, no.
41:34
I'm owning my body and my sexuality.
41:36
And I think there's power in that too,
41:39
right, taking back the reins on it and being like,
41:41
this is mine.
41:42
And I can show what I want and not show what I don't want, right?
41:45
Yeah, I don't think they're really courting the male gaze.
41:48
Most of their fans are women.
41:50
And like, Sabrina Carpenter does that pin up thing,
41:53
but most of her fans are women.
41:55
So there's a balance.
41:58
Absolutely.
41:59
I do love that feminist, girly pop culture that we're all--
42:04
I don't know-- girly pop summers for the last couple
42:07
of years, where we're all just loving each other.
42:09
And we need that right now, especially across the world,
42:13
but in the United States, just women
42:16
loving each other a little bit.
42:18
We can be a lot more people loving people, period.
42:21
Absolutely.
42:22
Yeah.
42:23
So this has been just such a fascinating conversation.
42:26
I could go on and on.
42:27
But I do want to talk to you about free diving
42:31
as a form of therapy for you.
42:33
And I guess that ties into you being a mermaid
42:35
a little bit, right?
42:36
Yeah.
42:37
And why is a free diving so healing for you?
42:41
And what is free diving for people who don't know?
42:43
Yeah, it's crazy because I used to call myself a city girl,
42:47
and it just wasn't that into nature.
42:49
And I don't think I was able to until I got sober
42:52
to really appreciate nature.
42:54
And I just somehow fell in love with the ocean.
42:57
But I went scuba diving on a work trip,
43:00
and I fell in love with just being underwater.
43:04
And then my girlfriend was like, oh, you should try free diving.
43:07
And I was like, why do I want to do that?
43:09
I could go underwater for an hour and breathe with scuba diving.
43:14
And you're telling me you want me to hold my breath
43:17
for a couple of minutes underwater.
43:18
That sounds very fun.
43:19
It sounds scary.
43:20
Yeah.
43:21
But I read this book called Deep by James Nestor,
43:26
and it just changed my life.
43:28
Basically, I love animals, but I especially love marine creatures.
43:34
And if you want to interact with dolphins and whales and stuff
43:38
like that, it's best to free dive,
43:39
because the scuba equipment's intimidating and loud for them.
43:44
But also, scuba diving is very meditative also,
43:48
but free diving is also meditative.
43:53
It's actually, I think, proven to be a meditative.
43:56
And what was fascinating to me is that they
44:00
have a theory that humans may be originated
44:03
from being watered, beings like billions of years ago,
44:06
or what I'm trying to say.
44:07
Yeah.
44:07
Because spouting legs will be the end of the ocean.
44:11
Because when you get to a certain depth,
44:13
your body naturally shunts all the blood
44:16
to a center part of your body to preserve all that energy.
44:21
So the scientists are wondering why
44:23
would the body know how to naturally do these things
44:25
at a certain depth unless we were once somehow water beings?
44:31
I'm not a scientist.
44:32
I'm not going to dig into that too much,
44:34
but I found that really fascinating.
44:35
More than I know about it, that's fascinating.
44:38
But yeah, there's just something so magical about just
44:45
falling deep into the water and just like--
44:48
I don't know.
44:49
I do not explain it.
44:51
What is the longest that you've held your breath
44:53
under water in one session?
44:55
Well, I've only done this with a coach or whatever.
44:59
Nice.
45:00
Or during a free diving class.
45:01
So you're not just going into the middle of the ocean
45:03
and holding your breath and just--
45:04
No.
45:05
I don't think you could actually hold your breath
45:07
as long as if you're moving.
45:10
Because it uses so much energy and breath.
45:13
But what I'm talking about is a static hold.
45:16
So you just sit there in the pool and you're just
45:18
trying to get your time.
45:20
And I did three minute 45 seconds once in my life.
45:24
I don't think I could replicate that again.
45:26
But I think when I first started freediving,
45:30
I really wanted to compete.
45:32
So I was in that mindset.
45:34
But I'm physically challenged with it.
45:37
Because when I get to a certain depth,
45:39
I can't equalize my ears.
45:42
So I've never really learned how to do this.
45:43
So I can now only do it for fun.
45:46
Oh my gosh.
45:46
No, that is incredible.
45:48
I think I'd be 30 seconds.
45:49
I'm like, nope, not about--
45:51
No, no, yeah.
45:52
It's all mental.
45:53
I think the author said everybody can hold their breath five
45:57
minutes.
45:57
Or something.
45:58
I forgot the number.
45:58
But if you are able to--
46:01
like physically, you're able to.
46:03
If you could--
46:03
It's just the mental feeling.
46:05
The feeling is very uncomfortable.
46:07
And sure I stay.
46:08
That's fascinating.
46:09
Maybe I'll give it a try.
46:10
I got a pool.
46:12
See if my husband can help me.
46:15
If you guys don't see me again on the show, that is why.
46:19
Because I failed it.
46:22
So when you're not writing and free diving,
46:25
what do you like to do with your life and your spare time?
46:28
You're based in LA, you said?
46:30
Yeah.
46:31
I mean, I love to travel.
46:32
But when I'm in LA, I just love to eat.
46:35
There's so much amazing food here.
46:38
And I love to cook.
46:39
I just think foods like my other passion.
46:42
So--
46:43
Could you ever see yourself writing a cookbook?
46:46
I'm probably not that good.
46:48
Yeah.
46:49
[LAUGHTER]
46:49
So probably not.
46:51
I mean, that would be amazing and awesome.
46:53
But I don't know if I'm so good at inventing recipes.
46:57
I love making things.
46:58
But I think I am usually following recipe.
47:01
Me too.
47:01
Me too.
47:02
I'm really good at reading recipes and doing steps.
47:05
But I can never be inventing things.
47:08
Yeah.
47:08
Like on Chopped, where they just give you a pile of ingredients.
47:11
Like make something.
47:12
I don't know.
47:12
[LAUGHTER]
47:15
So when fetishized comes out, if there was one key takeaway
47:19
that you hope people get from reading this book,
47:22
what would you say it would be?
47:23
I know that's pretty broad.
47:25
Well, it's just that so many men are always like, oh,
47:29
it's a compliment.
47:30
It's totally harmless.
47:32
And yeah, maybe a lot of the times it is harmless.
47:36
But I think my book proves just through historical facts.
47:41
Like the roots of it are very damaging.
47:44
And it does sometimes lead to violence.
47:47
So we shouldn't normalize it in any way.
47:51
Absolutely.
47:51
I think it's a beautiful book from what I've read so far.
47:54
And I can't wait to finish it.
47:56
And it's serious and it's introspective.
48:00
But it's still kind of like-hearted in spots.
48:03
And you do touch on sexual violence and the killings
48:08
of Asian women that's kind of brought on by this fetishization.
48:12
So I think it is so culturally important.
48:15
And just something that I would encourage men and women
48:19
of all races to read.
48:21
So wonderful.
48:23
Give us a little breakdown.
48:24
When does your book come out and when can people get it?
48:28
So it comes out on August 19th.
48:30
And it's available at all bookstores and also an audiobook.
48:35
So yeah, you could find it Amazon Barnes and Nobles.
48:39
And for me, you could find me just by my name, so on social,
48:43
or my website.
48:45
Awesome.
48:46
So are you still on TikTok?
48:47
You mentioned TikTok.
48:48
I am.
48:49
And I think TikTok's closing down, right?
48:52
I am still on TikTok.
48:53
But I think they're actually turning into a different platform.
48:57
They've announced it.
48:59
I did hear that actually.
49:00
I think they're doing like a spin off, like a United States one.
49:04
I don't know.
49:04
I haven't been on TikTok since they closed for a second,
49:09
and then magically came back.
49:12
It's so sad because it was like a really cool place at one point.
49:16
But yeah, all that controversy really destroyed it.
49:20
I agree.
49:20
It was such a good place for creators.
49:22
And just, I don't know.
49:24
It was fun.
49:25
It was fun.
49:25
It was a place for people to scroll and kind of distract themselves.
49:29
I literally wouldn't have a book without it.
49:30
So I'm so grateful to it.
49:32
Yeah.
49:33
Yeah, that's wonderful.
49:34
Yeah, it's definitely kind of given people
49:36
like creative juices.
49:38
And you mentioned MySpace too back in the day.
49:40
But I help launching the music career.
49:43
I love that.
49:44
I met my husband on MySpace.
49:46
So great.
49:46
We both love MySpace.
49:48
Yeah.
49:49
Soft spot in my heart.
49:50
Wonderful.
49:52
So I think that is just about going to wrap up
49:54
this episode of Pop Culture Junkie.
49:56
Kaila, thank you so much for joining us today.
49:59
Your book comes out August 19th.
50:02
Again, the title is “Fetishized: A Reckoning with Yellow Fever, Feminism, and Beauty."
50:09
So everybody, please make sure to check that out.
50:13
I would suggest going to a nice independent bookstore to buy it, right?
50:16
Yes.
50:17
Yes.
50:18
Not that I don't buy books on Amazon.
50:19
I don't buy books.
50:21
Always got the independent bookstores.
50:23
Yes.
50:24
And one more time where can people find you on social media, Kaila?
50:27
So my name is Kaila Yu, and it's spelled K-A-I-L-A.
50:31
And you could find my website and social from that.
50:35
Awesome.
50:36
And my name is Shauna.
50:37
You can find me on Instagram and threads @shaunatrinidad.
50:41
S-H-A-U-N-A-T-R-I-N-I-D-A-D.
50:45
Pop Culture Junkie is easy to find.
50:47
You can just go to our website, popculturejunkie.com
50:51
And from there, you can find our podcast on all platforms.
50:53
As well as our social media links, blog posts, and more.
50:57
You can contact us to join our Patreon, join the pop culture junkie support group on Facebook,
51:03
follow, subscribe, rate, review, all of that jazz.
51:08
Please, as I mentioned, join the Patreon.
51:10
Every subscription helps us bring you more great episodes like this one.
51:14
Find us at patreon.com/popculturejunkie.com.
51:19
Once again, thank you, Kaila.
51:22
And I don't know, come back anytime.
51:24
You're welcome.
51:25
This was a great conversation.
51:26
Thank you.
51:27
It was a lot of fun.
51:28
Yeah.
51:29
And everybody else, come back next time for another hit of pop culture.
51:33
The Pop Culture Junkie podcast is produced by Jeff Markin and Cheryl Lightfoot for the
51:41
Pop Culture Entertainment Network.
51:42
Entertain me, entertain me right now.
51:55
[Music]