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What are Art Fairs, and what should the Art Curious expect? · Art Curious? Art Confident!

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_00: Hi everyone, thanks for joining us.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to Art Curious, Art Confident.
• 0:04
  SPEAKER_00: I am your co-host, Desiree Asher.
• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: I'm the Fondatrice of Le Sendez Autiste, which is an art gallery, studio, and accelerator located in Cannes, France.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we are dedicated to connecting historically underrepresented and non-traditional creatives with the Art Curious and the Art Confident.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we're building a new way to art on a stage rooted in transparency, authenticity, and respect.
• 0:26
  SPEAKER_01: Hi everyone, I'm Allie Beatty.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: I'm the founder of Batty Co.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_01: Art Advisory, and I'm your co-host for Art Curious, ArtConfident with my very dear friend Desiree Asher.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: Batty Co.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_01: is all about providing different avenues into the art world, whether you're a collector, you're an institution, gallery, artist, or just someone curious about what's going on behind closed doors.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_01: Our mission is to provide an open experience for questions and answers for experimentation and discovery.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_00: All right, Allie, this is so exciting for me.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_00: I know that we have talked a lot about doing a podcast together.
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_00: And here we are.
• 1:03
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for rolling with me.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 1:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and welcome everyone that's here for the first time.
• 1:08
  SPEAKER_00: From my perspective, the impetus for doing this, and really what I want to do is just sort of kick down walls in the art industry.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you and I sort of oscillate between things we're curious about and things we're confident about.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um you're obviously the art expert in this conversation.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I'm more of the expert on the business side of things.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so we thought we could have a really compelling set of conversations um to kick down the doors and show what happens in the backrooms of the art world and um make it a little less daunting and uh a little more accessible to everyone.
• 1:42
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_00: And um, let's start with a little bit about who you are and um why you wanted to be here with me.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:51
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I think what I knew from the very beginning in meeting you is that we have a similar spirit towards knowledge and a thirst for clarity and transparency.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: And we both recognize that the art world is such a powerful cultural place, but that it often has barriers to entry.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so our friendship really began as art collectors, art curators, um, and it's blossomed into two incredible businesses that are really taking a stand for opening transparent conversations throughout the art world.
• 2:22
  SPEAKER_01: I started way, way, way back when as a little nerd eating lunch in the library, and a librarian gave me a stack of art posters that the art studio team was no longer using.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: And from there I uh dedicated my life to the study of art.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: While I may not have been accomplished with a brush or um with a pencil, I went to undergrad for art history at Wesleyan University and then got my master's thereafter at Trinity College in museum studies.
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so I spent the first few years of my career within institutions, these sort of big bastions of art collection, the greatest of the great.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: And I quickly became um disenfranchised with the whole institutional system because I want to think about it.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_00: Tell me, let's I'm gonna jump in and interrupt you because you're using some words that are very normal within the art world.
• 3:13
  SPEAKER_00: But what is an art institution?
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_00: What is a bastion of the greatest of the greats?
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_00: What the hell does that mean?
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm curious, Allie.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_00: I'm curious what you're so confident about.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
• 3:26
  SPEAKER_01: This is the best part because um when we when we exist in these spheres, we use these words repetitively and it creates a barrier to entry.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: So thank you for asking that.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so an art institution um really is anything that um like a museum is a great example, um, foundations, um, even libraries at certain points.
• 3:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um an institution, I guess, would be defined as a large collecting body governed by, I believe it has to have a board of directors of some kind, um, but it differs from your personal collection and mine.
• 3:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it also has a common mission.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it might have a mission statement, it might have a curation direction, but think of these like your Met and MoMA in New York City.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you for that.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you spent some time in that world and then you were like, this is not my vibe.
• 4:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like, let's let's figure something else out.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_01: Well, I will say, being in the um institutional world, right, um, I realized that things move really slowly and for a reason.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: There's a lot of approval processes, there's budgets and fundraising and grants.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_01: And so little old me at 22 years old was like, this is too slow.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I think you at this age it's still too slow.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Probably.
• 4:41
  SPEAKER_01: So yeah, I I went honestly from museums to um my next sort of big foray was um I was running a glass blowing gallery in Martha's Vineyard, which was truly the opposite of museums.
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I was working in a hot shop.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: I was not touching the glass, save for times where I had to um support the practice by blowing into the pipe.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_01: Um terrifying.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_01: I didn't know this.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I had no idea.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I was the manager of the the actual shop.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: I did, you know, all the curation and shipping glass art worldwide, which at like 26 was terrifying.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: I guess it's a common theme.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: I was scared of a lot of this.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_01: But yeah, and then we would have people into the studio to watch live glass blowing, and it was as energetic as it could get.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Fire and like thousands of degrees of temperature um of molten glass.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Then after that, I uh I sort of found my way to Austin, Texas, where I live now, um, after COVID, and I worked at an incredible contemporary art gallery here in Austin, where we specialized in um street art, uh pop art, everything basically post-work to contemporary.
• 5:56
  SPEAKER_01: And that was where I found the right speed for me.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: So we were buying and selling primary and secondary artworks, which means primary directly from the artists, we would represent them, and then secondary, meaning that they came from a private collection, we acquired them at auction.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the we were not the first owners of those pieces.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it really opened up the possibilities within the art world because while fast-paced, it's research driven, it's relationship driven.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_01: And um after after six years at the home there, I started my art advisory just this year in 2026 with some great encouragement from amazing friends.
• 6:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um and now I get to do a little bit of everything, quite honestly.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm really inspired by what you're doing over at Les Ende.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_01: Tell me how Les Enne got started.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_00: So, well, thank you for that.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I I love um the part of the story where I know I jump in.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_00: So just for everyone to understand, Allie and I met um because she was, you were my art dealer.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that was a complete and total fluke.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: There was a piece that I had seen at auction in a Ludden auction house, like online.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I was obsessed with it.
• 7:13
  SPEAKER_00: And it was, I wasn't signed up for the auction.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_00: I wasn't approved by the auction house, which takes a few days apparently.
• 7:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I wasn't even able to bid on it.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought, okay, well, it's probably not the best time to buy a piece right now, anyway.
• 7:25
  SPEAKER_00: And I was obsessed with that piece.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: It was um a photograph of Banksy by Chris Levine.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: And for six months, I was still obsessed with that piece.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: And so I put Google Alerts in.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_00: And six months later, one of the additions, I think it's a series of 33 um editions, popped up for sale online.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it happened to be at Allie's gallery.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I wrote in and said, uh, hey, I'm interested in this piece.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: And lo and behold, what I didn't know for years, Allie, you didn't tell me the story, is that at that time you weren't really taking inbound cold calls at that point, but you were also in the back of a moving van transporting art to a client's home.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot, bouncing around in the back, like popcorn.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, on the phone with me.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I was in New York and she was in Texas, and that was the start of um a very expensive for me and very lucrative relationship for Allie, uh, where every time her, if my phone would ding with your number, I thought, oh shit, this is gonna be a really expensive day.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: But I'll tell you, it's just um what I really liked about buying art from you is how just easy the process was and how transparent you were about everything, and how it was never like a hard sell.
• 8:42
  SPEAKER_00: It was, hey, I think this is good for your collection.
• 8:44
  SPEAKER_00: And you really did have a good sense of the type of art collector that I was and the type of art that I was looking for.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I remember another conversation that was really funny between me and Allie is that when I um, when we first met, I was living in New York City, very active in politics.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so a lot of my art was very sort of statement driven.
• 9:06
  SPEAKER_00: And then I moved to St.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: Bart's in the Caribbean.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: I was living on an island.
• 9:10
  SPEAKER_00: I had very different life and very different needs for what I wanted to look at every day.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you kept sending me all this like really hardcore political art, Americana art.
• 9:20
  SPEAKER_00: And I finally took a video.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Remember, I took a video of my view and I was like, this is my new life.
• 9:25
  SPEAKER_00: Please stop like making me mad about what's happening in the United States right now.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: I remember being like, oh right, right, right, right, right.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: We should bring up, I think it was a voice note you're like, oh, no, honestly, remember that.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um so fast forward a couple years later, I've been a you know, a passionate art collector for 25 years, I guess.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_00: And um, but my background's in tech.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: I have, you know, uh, I have no experience on this other side of the art world.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I really started to see some things that I didn't like.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, first of all, galleries are closing, and it's very clear that the current gallery model or the historical gallery model is not working.
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and so I started to kind of look into why that was and what I thought was going on.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: I really started to go into a lot of galleries and just do research.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I found a lot of things that I wasn't really vibing with.
• 10:17
  SPEAKER_00: I thought they were a little bit exclusionary.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to talk about what things aren't, but let's talk about what I wanted to build, which was something that is very inclusive and everybody's welcome and it's more like a community center and was really for the art curious and the art confident because, you know, Allie, you'll tell, you'll tell us.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, you're what's considered an industry expert, but art is like wine.
• 10:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, nobody knows everything.
• 10:39
  SPEAKER_00: And if you if you act like you do, then you're a dick, right?
• 10:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: That's such a good analogy, too, because you can you might find a specialist in a field, much like, you know, and I don't know wine, but you might find a burgundy expert or, you know, a champagne expert.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: But even then, in the art world, part of this ethos or even mythos, this sort of illusion of being an expert in anything gives people the understanding that there is more to learn.
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_01: And in in order to participate in the art world, you have to have a certain level of education or status or number of years of experience.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_01: And that's just not true.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's not true.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen some of the best purchases or best, you know, this is my new favorite artist, 10 years before the art experts wake up and find the same result.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_01: So you're exactly right.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: There is there is no, I don't have a medal that says experienced in the art world.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: I just have conversations with people.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: Art confident.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: Well, is an attitude.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's really the reason why part of this the statement for Le Senne, um, part of our mission statement is art curious and art confident.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so when I when I opened the gallery, of course, Ali was one of my first calls when I came up with this concept of opening a really revolutionary gallery that was specifically focusing on representing historically underrepresented and non-traditional creatives and artists, um, and connecting them though with the art curious and the art confident.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_00: And I am not an art expert.
• 12:20
  SPEAKER_00: I don't pretend to be an art expert.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not gonna be able to stand in front of a piece and tell you how it's reminiscent of XYZ Master and it's of this style with very much expertise at all.
• 12:31
  SPEAKER_00: Allie can, but there's a lot of people out there that quite frankly just don't give a shit about that.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_00: They feel like they love it, they want it, they can afford it, and they want to take it home, and they're not even almost invited to do that.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the flip side of it is people who do know those things don't even know that they're allowed to walk into places and have conversations with industry experts and just share knowledge and have beautiful open conversations that ultimately results in an acquisition or not.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: And that's what I really wanted to change about Lissanne.
• 13:04
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's where Allie and I just uh it's been like the most beautiful partnership since, um, where she really brings a lot of the art confidence and I bring a lot of the art curious.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And uh here we are doing a podcast to bring you guys into our world.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 13:19
  SPEAKER_00: I'm so excited.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: And we said this before, but when you and I get going on a topic in the art world, it's it's never, you know, one of us knows more than the other necessarily, but there's so much to discuss.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: But I will say we've had more conversations about, you know, we think about discussing the art world as this sort of, you know, finite environment.
• 13:44
  SPEAKER_01: But what we really have conversations about is humanity.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about people, we're talking about representations of people who are historically underrepresent uh underrepresented.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: We're talking about people who have emotions and stories.
• 14:00
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, even when I'm visiting La Seine, um, I hear the most amazing stories of how people connect to the artwork in the south of France that I don't hear in the United States.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's what you're doing is uh creating a very, I want to say democratic, but very equal playing field for people to just share who they are and learn more about themselves through the interpretation of artwork with no expectations.
• 14:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that's to me, that's where art thrives.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a really good segue into the exact opposite of what I'm doing this week, which is I'm here in Paris for Art Basel Paris.
• 14:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I believe it's the is it the fifth year of Basel Paris?
• 14:44
  SPEAKER_00: It's either the third, fourth, or fifth, I can't remember, but it's a very new fair.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_00: So I wanted to really start this with what the hell is Basel?
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_00: What are art fairs?
• 14:54
  SPEAKER_00: Why are they important?
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: Explain to me.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_00: I feel like every other minute there's an art fair, there's all these different ones.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_00: Can you just give us sort of an overview of who, what, where, when, and why this fair thing happens?
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_01: So Art Basel as a fair started in Basel, Switzerland.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's where it comes from.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And it was founded with the premise of bringing together galleries from around the world to one central location where rather than having to fly to New York, London, Paris, Shanghai, Hong Kong, you could go to one central location and see the best of the best, almost like a um mini biennale, which Okay.
• 15:35
  SPEAKER_00: So let me introduce, let me pause you for one second there.
• 15:38
  SPEAKER_00: So historically, they would have to go to like what really big um or quote unquote expensive or um well-known galleries in these cities that you listed.
• 15:48
  SPEAKER_00: These cities, these galleries were typically in these big commerce today.
• 15:52
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and then you said biennale, and you know I was gonna stop you on that one because we definitely don't know what the hell that is.
• 15:58
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Caviat, the Venice Biennale is um an international art exhibition um or exposition where each country nominates an artist to represent that their art of their time.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_01: So it happens, I believe, bi-annually.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the Venice Biennale, um, every two years.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_01: And um, so for example, the United States will elect or select an artist to represent what's happening in American art today, and countries from around the world, around the world would do that.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so a similar thesis runs through Basel and um the Art Basel fairs.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So rather than going to Paris um to see some of you know the greatest artwork or the greatest um collections by those gallerists, then traveling to another city, like you said, it gives everyone a centralized location.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: A great way to refer to it, I think, is like the Olympics of art.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_01: It's everyone puts kind of their best foot forward to say, this is who we are as a gallery, and these are some of our greatest hits that are happening right now.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I love that analogy, and that makes a lot of sense if it was on a Biennale schedule, or if it was just Basel in Basel, Switzerland, or if it was once every few years.
• 17:20
  SPEAKER_00: But I feel like now we've got every hour we're we're heading off to the next show.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_00: So is it the best foot forward, or are we seeing a lot of this stuff over and over?
• 17:30
  SPEAKER_00: Should I go to every show?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_00: Should people go to every fair?
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: How do you navigate?
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: So I think originally, in the art fair's favor, I think having different basels in different locations in the world at different times in the year, in theory, allows us to kind of pick one based on our locale.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: So Paris is a little bit easier for you to get to than for me, and Miami is a little bit for me to easier for me to get to.
• 17:56
  SPEAKER_01: So I'll be going to Art Basel, Miami, in December, and you're in Art Basel Paris right now.
• 18:03
  SPEAKER_01: In theory, we should be seeing different collections, not the same artwork over and over again.
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_01: But for a gallery, just for easy math, let's say they represent five artists, they will showcase those five artists with different work in both locations so that you get an experience of what their program is or the sort of thesis behind why they represent who they represent in the same way that I will in Miami, but with different artwork.
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know that.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 18:35
  SPEAKER_00: Now, how many basels are there right now?
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: I know there's Hong Kong, there's Hong Kong, Paris, obviously.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: There's Basel, Switzerland, Miami.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: Does London have a Basel?
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, I don't think so, because London has Freeze, which just happened last week.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so now that brings us into the next thing.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's a whole second sort of quote unquote competitor to Basel, right?
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a different, say, brand of fairs, which is called Freeze.
• 19:04
  SPEAKER_00: What is Freeze and how does it differ from Basel?
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So Freeze, Freeze is, well, actually, taking a step back, looking at it from an outsider's perspective or you know, just a curious perspective, these are essentially different brands of fairs.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of the day, you generally pay to have a booth and um you make your money by selling art during the fair or doing brand partnerships, whatever it may take.
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: Freeze is at the at the very lowest level, at the best level, just simplification, is just another brand of art fair.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, everyone does it a little bit differently.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_01: Freeze has London, LA, and probably I can't remember if they have any other ones.
• 19:47
  SPEAKER_01: You can tell that I'm focusing on the ones that I can actually.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, Freeze has Seoul.
• 19:50
  SPEAKER_00: Seoul Korea just had first or second Freeze.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: So which was super exciting this year.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, okay, so it's basically like the um uh CVS versus Dwayne Reed situation here.
• 20:02
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 20:04
  SPEAKER_00: So I have heard that Freeze, and I've never been to a Freeze, I've been to a few Basels, but I've heard that it's a little bit more focused on emerging artists and more um contemporary art than say maybe some more of the classics and the blue chips, but I don't know if that's accurate.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: It's so tough to say because there isn't a requirement of either a fair of what you can and can't show.
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_01: One thing that's interesting about Freeze is, for example, the London fair just ended on Sunday.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: They have Freeze Masters and then they have Freeze London.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_01: So they do separate time periods, so you'll see a little bit more post-war contemporary, almost exclusively in just Freeze.
• 20:41
  SPEAKER_01: And Masters is going to be more of your blue chip, um, older works, impressionists, a Brougal just sold, I think, at Freeze Masters for a really you know exorbitant price.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um Freeze does separate it.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: Are these two separate fairs?
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_00: Are they just two separate geographies of the same fair happening at the same time?
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good question.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_01: I believe they're the same fair, but they're different locations.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_01: So you go to Freeze Masters, leave, and then go to Freeze London.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER_01: They're both in London, but it's different experiences.
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um different curiosity.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and I love this this conversation because Allie, you've said a couple times, I'm not sure.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I love that because even someone who's an industry expert and is extremely art confident, this is exactly what we've been talking about that not everybody knows, and it's perfectly okay.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 21:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we all started with not knowing anything, whether it was when we were in high school at the library, or I think I was about 25 when I started getting into art.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, you know, so I love that.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: I love that some of the answers are I'm not sure, but I think.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: And okay, but then there now there's other sort of other brands that are popping up, like Untitled is another one, or Armory is another one.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: So is this yet another sort of way of doing a type of battle?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_01: I will say I'm a huge nerd about the Armory Fair.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um I went to uh September, or I don't even know what time is, a few weeks ago.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um Armory actually started in, I believe, 1914.
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_01: If I'm doing my math correctly.
• 22:17
  SPEAKER_01: I know that because um we learned about it in art history and how um uh Marcel Duchamp famously displayed one of his cubist pieces, new descending the staircase, and it kind of a lot of people use that as the benchmark for the advent of modern art or the arrival of modern art in the United States.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so armory's been around for a while, I believe at least a hundred years.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_00: Um and for the art curious, Marcel Duchamp is the one who originally put a urinal on uh display and called it art and really sort of rocked the whole art world.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_00: So you see, you know more than you think you do about art because everyone knows about that piece.
• 22:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if you don't, it's okay too.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_01: Well, right.
• 22:56
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so Armory kind of has this uh historic gravitas or like level of importance.
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: So for me, I was like, I have to see the armory at least once in my life, but again, it's it's a fair, it generally feels like a convention, so a trade.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's in New York City, right?
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, and it was at Javis Center this year, yeah.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_00: So I mean that's the convention center of all convention centers.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and I mean maybe that's sort of an interesting not to go so off topic, but we've got a you know, we could we could go on for days.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_00: And don't worry, this podcast will be on for years, so we'll teach you all the things about everything.
• 23:32
  SPEAKER_00: But you know, the Basel, Miami right now is also in the convention center.
• 23:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what's really cool about the Paris one is it's in the Grand Palais, which yes, is technically a convention center, but it's much more intimate, it's much less corporate trade show feeling, and it's much more of what I would imagine the historical art fairs used to feel like.
• 23:53
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't really been to that many.
• 23:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I mean, my first Basil was in I think 2007.
• 24:02
  SPEAKER_00: And I mean, it's worlds different than it than it is now.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it's okay, so there's there's an art commentator called the Art Daddy, yeah, which I was surprised to find out wasn't actually you, because as far as I'm concerned, you're you're my art daddy.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: For sure, Ali is my art daddy.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but that said that armory has sort of become the turduccan of the art world because it's a show wrapped up in a show, wrapped up in a show owned by a brand.
• 24:29
  SPEAKER_00: And I started really thinking about is it has it all kind of become the turduccan?
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: Because right now I'm in Paris, okay, but there's all of these, all of the big fashion houses have foundations now that they've done to support up-and-coming living artists, which is incredible.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: So they've got big shows going on all over the city.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: Then there's Basil, of course, itself.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's what's called satellite shows, which are all of these different fairs that are going on.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_00: And even in Paris, where it's a much newer, much more intimate fair scene, I can't possibly do all of it.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I would have to bring 10 people to try to hit as much as I could, or you just kind of have to pick and choose and see where the schedule goes with you.
• 25:09
  SPEAKER_00: How does one take a bite of the turduccin?
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's number one rule wear comfy shoes.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: Don't try to be cute about it.
• 25:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um you will walk so much.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: But beyond that, um, quite honestly, that's why working with um an advisor or at least having a buddy system where you can plan beforehand.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: This whole show, though it is about art, is designed like window shopping.
• 25:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's everyone is trying to get your attention with something um exceptionally beautiful, exceptionally thought-provoking, um, even exceptionally disturbing or confusing.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: This is window shopping at its best.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: So having a plan beforehand, as nerdy as that sounds, will save you so much um time and help you actually come to terms with the fact that you cannot see everything.
• 26:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and that's what I do as an advisor as well.
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_00: Well, yeah, I mean, that's I've seen your you do that, and it's like extraordinary.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_00: But for those of us that aren't maybe so disciplined or quote unquote serious, and we just kind of want to pop in and out.
• 26:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what's sort of an example of maybe a loose plan?
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then I want to segue into what do we do when the plan goes to shit, which is exactly what's happened to us.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm super excited to talk about it and for you to tell us what to go do today, because we have no idea what to expect.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: I love it.
• 26:38
  SPEAKER_01: So, loose plan, wear comfy shoes.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you can't bring food or water into any of these art fairs, so don't even try.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_01: I can't tell you how many times I've gotten a coffee right before I walk into the art fair, and I have to throw it away every time.
• 26:50
  SPEAKER_01: So save you five bucks.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, when you walk into an art fair, generally you will have a fair map.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, oftentimes they're virtual.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_01: If you have a mission to go see something, I would find it and I would go see it immediately.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 27:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um, other than that, the walking around and browsing is so, so, so fun.
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_01: I recommend starting at the back and working frontwards.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I kind of put my blinders on and I beeline to the farthest location away from the door so that as I'm moseying back, I'm going towards the exit versus psychologically, for some reason, it's harder to say, My feet hurt, I want to leave, and walk farther away from the exit.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's really good.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: That's smart.
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: If you really want to make sure you see as much as you can and maximize your day, that's a really, really good tip.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_01: Don't forget to stop for water.
• 27:47
  SPEAKER_01: There are lounges in every fair, most of them are sponsored.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: Get water, get a snack.
• 27:53
  SPEAKER_01: If your feet start hurting and your eyes are overwhelmed, which will happen, take a breather.
• 27:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, perfect.
• 28:00
  SPEAKER_00: Perfect.
• 28:01
  SPEAKER_00: So one thing that the curious might not know, and the confident certainly knows, is that these fairs open to the public, usually on a Friday, um, but they are actually open on Tuesday.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: And the Tuesday opening, from what I always heard, was for the very elite, very exclusive private jet crowd come in, drop a few million, and they jet out that same night.
• 28:26
  SPEAKER_00: And then when the on Wednesday and Thursday is for the regular VIP crowd.
• 28:32
  SPEAKER_00: So that's where you have maybe you're invited by your financial and financial institution, or you're invited by the galleries themselves because you have a history with them, et cetera.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: And then after three days of full sales being open, then the gallery will open to the public, um, usually Friday, Saturday, Sunday.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_00: With partnering with people like Ali at Beatty and Co.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: and partnering with UBS, um, the financial institution, who is the global sponsor of Basil, um I've really had enormous access to things.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: But what I can't believe happened is last night I was invited to go in actually today, which is the Tuesday VIP, that I never even dreamed about as an option, nor have I done any research on what to expect.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what do I need to know besides what you just told me?
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_00: And what should I expect to see?
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: And what do we absolutely need to report back?
• 29:25
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's so exciting that you're going on the Tuesday.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because what maybe most people don't know is every fair, all of the galleries send out um a private view or a PDF of all of the works that they're going to have on display to their existing collectors.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: So that means very likely if you've bought from the gallery before or expressed interest in artwork, you will likely at some time, probably two weeks prior to the fair, have access to a list sometimes of hundreds of artworks to see at their booth.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_01: And so from the outside, as an advisor, I received no less than I don't know, 75 PDFs of hundreds of works for Basel.
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_01: Keep in mind, freeze happened last week.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_01: So this is back-to-back thousands of artworks to look at.
• 30:22
  SPEAKER_00: Unbelievable.
• 30:24
  SPEAKER_00: Now, quickly, let me ask you, because I don't believe that hundreds of pieces are displayed in one booth out of air.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Very good question.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_01: So a lot of the times, there's there's many ways that galleries can do it.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: They will have sort of their initial hang, their highlights, again, greatest hits of what their program offers, program being their artist that they represent.
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but sometimes they only have one or two of each artist.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: As those works start to sell, they might rotate or recurate, rehang the booth.
• 30:59
  SPEAKER_01: So there is a chance by the time you see the booth during general admission on Friday, it looks very different than what it looked like on a Tuesday.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 31:09
  SPEAKER_01: The other thing is most galleries bring in meth and put it in storage, or if they have a gallery in that location.
• 31:18
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, some of the big ones like the Gosian and White Cube and um, you know, on and on and on pace, they will have actual galleries in that space, in that city, where they will leave the rest of the artwork ready for display.
• 31:33
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes they even rent, you know, tertiary spaces to have on public view for other people to see it.
• 31:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, again, if we're in this mentality of this is the art Olympics, bringing it to you in the closest city you can get to.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_01: I, as a gallery, want to show you the best of the best.
• 31:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to be limited by a booth, even if it's 10,000 square feet of a booth.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_01: I can only put what 20 pieces in max.
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_01: And that doesn't showcase the best of the best or everyone in my program.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_01: So it's and consider that is a huge expense for galleries to ship hundreds of artwork from wherever they may be in the world to an art fair for one week.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: So they might as well ship as much as they can so that you have the opportunity as a collector or as an enthusiast or a curious person to see what they're all about in person.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So I love that.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love it as a collector that I'm able to do these.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'll tell you, as a gallerist, I'm emphatically anti-fair for my gallery.
• 32:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, LeCenne is an extremely different price point.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: We are considered emerging art.
• 32:41
  SPEAKER_00: Our lowest piece is around 400, 500 euro, up to say 50,000 euro is the max of what I'll have at the gallery for the foreseeable.
• 32:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I would have to sell a lot to really cover my costs.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I'm also hearing chatter in the art world that a lot of these fairs aren't breaking even, they aren't recouping, or they aren't making money for a lot of galleries.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_00: So, can you give us a peek into like the inside scoop on what's actually going on financially at these fairs?
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 33:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because they're selling.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And we see the numbers.
• 33:13
  SPEAKER_00: There's millions and millions of acquisitions happening at fairs.
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: But are galleries actually getting ahead on the fair circuit?
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: It's a great question.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_01: And the interesting part is you'll see reports that are dramatically contradictory across the board.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_01: No one actually reports line by line what their costs are and what their sales are.
• 33:33
  SPEAKER_01: However, what it points to is the galleries that have deep, deep, deep relationships and histories with clients will more often than not sell the majority of their booth prior to even getting there.
• 33:47
  SPEAKER_01: So consider this.
• 33:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: You go see a booth today.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: I would probably estimate that at least 50% of their highest value pieces have either been on reserve or are already paid for by the time that you see it.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: So for someone who has maybe a 20-year history or a list of, I don't know, to be egregious, 100,000 names or more, they've already made what they need to to survive at the fair.
• 34:15
  SPEAKER_01: Now, the opposite of that is emerging galleries or, you know, galleries that have been around five, 10, 15 years are relying on the traffic and the eyeballs of the people who are coming for maybe those big galleries or maybe for just a fresh look at emerging talent.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_01: And they're hoping, betting, that people will still come to the fair and are looking to acquire artwork.
• 34:40
  SPEAKER_01: I would say the big caveat that's changed the market dramatically, which is which I think LaSanne is really picking up on, is more and more people these days are comfortable buying art online based on relationship, based on photos and videos.
• 34:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so it no longer requires that you have to go to the fair to inspect it in person, which is a huge shift from where we came from.
• 35:00
  SPEAKER_00: That is, and that is definitely a different podcast for a different day.
• 35:03
  SPEAKER_00: So let's go back to the talking about.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: So in in two hours, when I go, I will be one of the first people to step into the Grand Palais to see Basil Paris 2026.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: And you're telling me that at the large galleries, half of what I'm going to be looking at is probably already sold.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: I can tell you for a fact because I'm one of those buyers.
• 35:30
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: So Deb.
• 35:33
  SPEAKER_00: I love that.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_00: Uh one clap for Allie.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: One, two, three.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um now let's let me ask you this.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_00: If I am a gallery and I've sold a piece and I've sold my, you know,$3 million XYZ, why am I bringing it?
• 35:50
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I paying shipping?
• 35:51
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I putting it on display?
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_00: Why am I taking up valuable real estate wall space for a piece that I could put up instead that actually is for sale?
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_01: This is one of my favorite phenomena that exists in the art world.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_01: And I by that I mean if this was completely a transactional sort of warehouse model, there would be no reason, like you're saying, to take up valuable real estate uh with a sold work of art.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: What remains true, and I think is integral to the continued success of galleries at this scale, is that they will leave artwork that has sold on display to further educate and further promote and share who their artists are.
• 36:36
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not as dry and devoid of actual support of their program.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, of an artwork that maybe me and my clients purchase that's on display at Art Basel Paris, we still very much believe that this artist, of course, is super important and valuable.
• 36:56
  SPEAKER_01: And we believe in them so much that we financially invested in it, but that doesn't mean that we want it all for ourselves.
• 37:01
  SPEAKER_01: I want someone like you, someone like Titi, someone, you know, walking in off the streets in Paris to learn about who this artist is and maybe they fall in love with them as well.
• 37:10
  SPEAKER_01: It's not all about the privatization and the sort of mind hoarding aspect of the art world that one might suppose it is.
• 37:18
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so it really is almost like there's a museum concept happening at these fairs as well, even though technically it starts as a sales vehicle.
• 37:28
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and what's interesting too is, I mean, technically it's a private fair.
• 37:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they don't have to sell GA tickets.
• 37:34
  SPEAKER_01: And I guess there is a barrier to entry, of course, because you have to pay to get in.
• 37:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but again, it doesn't have to be democratic in the sense that anyone can go in and walk up to multiple millions of dollars of art.
• 37:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so there is still that underlying aspect of discovery and learning about each gallery's program.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_01: Because on the back end, if I'm a gallery and let's say I represent 10 artists, I just I don't just want my top clients to know who these artists are.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_01: I want you and me and my friends down the street, and you know, the cafe shop owner and you know, my financial advisor, I want them all to be invested in the success of this artist, particularly living artists, so that the next time we bring a new body of work, there's more and more excitement, more social, cultural value behind them than in a very small microcosm.
• 38:32
  SPEAKER_01: So there is an aspect of um, you know, all of us buying into the belief behind an artist that it matters.
• 38:40
  SPEAKER_01: At the end of the day, art is a very social, emotional um investment, whether you take it home or not.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so gathering that support from whoever enters into the fair or even sees it on Instagram is incredibly important to the success of these artists.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, okay.
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so let's see.
• 39:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, who what should I expect since I do have access to this Thursday?
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what should I see people-wise?
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_00: Am I gonna see the actual, say, for instance, like Alicia Keats and Swiz are huge art collectors?
• 39:14
  SPEAKER_00: They're actually driving some incredible momentum for black artists right now and living artists, and they are actually changing the game in such a cool way.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_00: Are they gonna be there or do they send their Ali Beatty?
• 39:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's a good question.
• 39:28
  SPEAKER_01: I, for both of our sake, I hope that you meet Elisa, Alicia and Swiz.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_01: I really do.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, I will be sure to tell her all about Ali Beatty, Beatty and Co.
• 39:41
  SPEAKER_00: and look at this altiste for sure.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: If I can't.
• 39:43
  SPEAKER_00: Alicia, if you're watching this podcast, while we're manifesting, Rihanna, I'd also like to meet her.
• 39:48
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Rihanna, we know you're a big collector.
• 39:50
  SPEAKER_00: We think you would really like us.
• 39:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um Yeah.
• 39:53
  SPEAKER_01: Well, it's a it's a good question.
• 39:54
  SPEAKER_01: So part of what I love about you know art fairs and especially what you're going to today is seeing artwork in person, regardless of whether or not you're gonna buy it, is still a very emotional inspiring thing.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I would imagine for Alicia and Swiss or you know, other major collectors, it gives you so much life.
• 40:13
  SPEAKER_01: You're gonna walk, I believe you, Desiree, are gonna walk out of this fair, A, exhausted, but you knew that, and B, you're gonna have so much food for thought.
• 40:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's emotionally and mentally exhausting.
• 40:26
  SPEAKER_01: It's like running an artistic marathon.
• 40:29
  SPEAKER_01: There's so much, it's so pithy, it's so fulfilling.
• 40:33
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that if you can make it to a fair, especially at a VIP, for example, you're gonna have you know artwork to think about for years to come.
• 40:43
  SPEAKER_01: A new artist that you want to follow, a new book that you want to read, a new exhibition coming up that you want to follow up on, you know, on social media.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_01: So regardless of your level of collecting status, I would expect that anyone who can be will be there in person.
• 40:59
  SPEAKER_01: When you went to Basel Paris last year, so what was your experience in viewing works in person?
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I had um, I went on the Wednesday and I loved that it was so intimate and so much um more manageable, just visually, physically, emotionally than some of the larger Basels.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what I really liked too is the so there's an emerging section um at this Basel in particular.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know if they do that at all of them.
• 41:27
  SPEAKER_00: Is that something they have?
• 41:28
  SPEAKER_00: They always have.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: They do.
• 41:30
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes it's emerging artists, and what I prefer, well, one of my favorite things is they do emerging galleries, new, newer galleries.
• 41:37
  SPEAKER_00: That's what's happening here.
• 41:38
  SPEAKER_00: So they have 16 emerging galleries um participating this year.
• 41:42
  SPEAKER_00: And I believe 14 of those are doing solo shows of emerging artists.
• 41:46
  SPEAKER_00: So it's like a double twofer, which I think is really exciting.
• 41:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so I love that.
• 41:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm very excited to see what happens.
• 41:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I am going on both Tuesday and Wednesday because I have tickets for both of those days.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I definitely want to see the difference, and I'll report back next week on what the differences of those were.
• 42:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I do want to transition into another opportunity that we have for tomorrow night.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so we are able to do a private tour with uh an intimate group at White Cube Gallery here in Paris, and it will be with the Tracy Emin show.
• 42:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so I know that you can speak to us very confidently on both White Cube and Tracy Emin.
• 42:27
  SPEAKER_00: Um I'm familiar on a very curious base level with both of these, the artists and the and the gallery.
• 42:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but can you walk us through like what is White Cube?
• 42:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I know that their ethos is pretty different.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 42:39
  SPEAKER_01: So White Cube is, in my opinion, a really incredible gallery, um, multinational in locations.
• 42:46
  SPEAKER_01: And I've had a blast getting to know one of their um senior directors, Victoria, who will actually be guiding your tour in Paris.
• 42:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she's she's flown in from New York.
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_01: So very briefly, I'll just say um White Cube from a distance was intimidating for me.
• 43:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um even as a you know, art confident person.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um White Cube, even the name kind of has this sort of connotation now that it's this white cube where you must be silent and it's only for the very, very, very serious and all else aren't welcome.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_01: I've had the opposite experience.
• 43:20
  SPEAKER_01: It's terrifying.
• 43:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: It's terrifying.
• 43:22
  SPEAKER_00: It is just I would even say um at you know, atlas end that, oh, you don't have to design for the white cube because we don't have white walls, it's a different kind of feel.
• 43:31
  SPEAKER_00: But from the outside perspective, white cube seems like the gold standard of institutional expectation, where it's completely, like you said, a deathly silent box, almost the different type of institution.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 43:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and the expectations are so refined.
• 43:49
  SPEAKER_00: And you must absolutely know to me, dining with the queen and going to White Cube feel very similar.
• 43:56
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_01: You're you're not wrong.
• 43:58
  SPEAKER_01: And that's that is the impression.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_01: That's a lot of these galleries give off.
• 44:03
  SPEAKER_01: And my experience with WhiteCube, and I hope your experience as well, is I've learned more about WhiteCube's program just from casual conversation with their team.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone from their front desk staff to their senior directors and partners.
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so I think, you know, now I'm not here to say that every gallery treats people equitably and, you know, doesn't have that sort of snooty attitude that one fears in the art world.
• 44:32
  SPEAKER_01: I can't say that for a fact.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: But what I will say with this gallery that surprised me more than anything is I think I spoke to Victoria, I don't know, for an hour over the phone while I was living in Kent with you guys.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 44:46
  SPEAKER_01: Just getting to know each other.
• 44:47
  SPEAKER_01: It was it felt very akin to how you and I first started speaking.
• 44:52
  SPEAKER_01: It's all about connecting with people as humans.
• 44:55
  SPEAKER_01: And some people do that and some people don't.
• 44:58
  SPEAKER_01: But before I wax poetic more on how much I love Victoria at WhiteCube, uh is Victoria at the White Cube London or she's at White Cube Paris?
• 45:06
  SPEAKER_01: She is currently at White Cube Paris.
• 45:08
  SPEAKER_01: She is based in New York City.
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, okay, okay.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_01: That's why I was so excited.
• 45:13
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, she's gonna be there.
• 45:15
  SPEAKER_01: Great space.
• 45:17
  SPEAKER_01: What I love about the show that you're gonna see, so Dame Tracy Emman um has long been one of my favorite artists.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, her background, she started as one of the YBAs in the 90s.
• 45:29
  SPEAKER_01: Um, YBA stands for Young British Artists.
• 45:32
  SPEAKER_01: Um other artists that were in this group include Fiona Ray and probably most famously Damien Hearst.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: And so I had no idea she was British.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: I've never heard of Fiona Ray, so that's how so curious, you know, don't worry about it.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: No one knows everything.
• 45:50
  SPEAKER_01: And you don't have to to enjoy it, quite honestly.
• 45:52
  SPEAKER_01: I'm excited to see what you think.
• 45:53
  SPEAKER_01: But Tracy Emmin is known for um kind of different, different interpretations of, in a lot of ways, the experience of being a woman.
• 46:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, she wrestles a lot with gender, with emotions.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, one of her more notable controversial pieces is called My Bed, and it's an installation of her messy bed.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I believe at some point it was a performance piece where she actually just laid in it.
• 46:22
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but a lot of it's about making the intimate visible, the vulnerability visible, visible.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, I had a print of hers once of one of her neon works that just said, I love you so much.
• 46:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um but Tracy's um solo show in White Cube is going to be a really rich dive into what she's grappling with currently.
• 46:45
  SPEAKER_01: And and I would call it maybe a mini retrospective of where she's been.
• 46:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and as you I think you mentioned to me, she has some incredible sculptures on display right in front of the Eiffel Tower.
• 46:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and those are all, from what I've seen or read, those are different sort of iterations of the generation of, or rather, the life cycle of a woman.
• 47:09
  SPEAKER_00: I did some research into those as well.
• 47:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I guess it's like um uh there's four different ones, and it's posed from kneeling into standing.
• 47:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it is the from the subservience into the very confident, um, dynamic pose of a woman who's walking through the earth knowing what she has to offer and um sort of the entire cycle of what it feels like to be a woman and what the world expects from us.
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_00: We will be going to see those.
• 47:37
  SPEAKER_00: We will definitely report back on those next week, and we can show video of that on next week's podcast because that's something we uh we absolutely need to see.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_00: Um now, do you think that I will get to meet Tracy?
• 47:52
  SPEAKER_00: Will she be at this show?
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_00: I sure hope so.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I I would think so.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I think it'd be fascinating.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_00: I think I'll be very nervous to meet her.
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I'm very familiar with bed.
• 48:03
  SPEAKER_00: I remember my bed.
• 48:05
  SPEAKER_00: I remember reading about that and learning about it in art history classes that I've taken.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, that was an incredible insight into.
• 48:13
  SPEAKER_00: I think it was what she like didn't clean her room for like 90 days or something.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_00: And this was in what the 80s or 90s.
• 48:19
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, very like in a very sexual age, very there were cigarettes and Diet Coke cans and wine bottles and just filth and condoms and you know, it was really kind of an insight into the reality of probably a lot of our lives that we would never show publicly.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_01: Let alone in a museum, right?
• 48:40
  SPEAKER_01: Can you imagine having your bed on display at the tape?
• 48:45
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely cannot.
• 48:46
  SPEAKER_00: I absolutely cannot.
• 48:47
  SPEAKER_00: And I I from what I'm understanding, like either this show that I'm gonna see tomorrow or the show that she just did at the tape, she has like um, you know, paintings of like her abortion, um, paintings of a bloody vagina.
• 49:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's definitely she puts it in your face.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: She's definitely not afraid of much.
• 49:07
  SPEAKER_01: And uh, the other thing about Tracy that I I have to highlight that I think is so important is she has a the Tracy Emmond Foundation, I believe.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: And so in her studio in London, she also shares that space with several emerging artists.
• 49:24
  SPEAKER_01: And I believe annually, we'll have to fact check this, but annually she sort of awards the Tracy Emmin Prize, and that artist is then set up with sort of a media frenzy, you know, a lot of attention around the world.
• 49:38
  SPEAKER_01: So she uses her influence in a very incredible, generous way.
• 49:44
  SPEAKER_01: I was at Untitled Houston a couple weeks ago, and one of the galleries I was speaking to said, Oh, this artist studied with Tracy Emmin as part of her studio.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: And I immediately was like, Who?
• 49:56
  SPEAKER_01: So she's very generous with her influence as well.
• 50:00
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, that's cool.
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_00: That's cool.
• 50:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, it's interesting though, because I just read yesterday that she doesn't let anyone except for her, like, you know, her the guy who her ride or die, the guy who runs her her whole business, um, into her studio.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah.
• 50:13
  SPEAKER_00: So I bet she she she sponsors shared studio space, but that's not where she works.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: That's a good point.
• 50:20
  SPEAKER_01: Probably not.
• 50:21
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was kind of interesting that she no one, regardless, period, is allowed into her studio.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_00: I thought, except for this one guy who's just they've been together 18 years.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 50:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, working together.
• 50:32
  SPEAKER_00: And she says that uh, you know, nobody nobody gets to her.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_00: And he, because he runs her business so effectively, she's able to do what she does brilliantly.
• 50:41
  SPEAKER_00: So I thought that was kind of cool.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: Well, yeah, and I mean that speaks to the level of trust to be a creative.
• 50:47
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, the amount of pressure and eyeballs that you see, I mean, especially in a digital age, there's so much readily available criticism and praise and all of that.
• 50:56
  SPEAKER_01: I think, you know, on some level, I'd love to talk to more artists about this too.
• 51:00
  SPEAKER_01: What does what does privacy or intimacy in your studio or in your creative setting look like in in an incredibly connected and wide open visibility age?
• 51:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think you should definitely put that on the list for podcast ideas because that sounds like an excellent episode.
• 51:14
  SPEAKER_00: But speaking of digital, it's the perfect um transition into the the one thing I sort of want to end on with this is that one of the satellite fairs is called um off-screen.
• 51:24
  SPEAKER_00: And that was supposed to happen today, but because we got this incredible opportunity to go to the the um avant-premier at um at Basel, uh everything's kind of shifted around, our schedule's a little shifted.
• 51:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but digital art is just an up-and-coming bracket.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_00: I believe that Gen Z is now spending 10% of their art collecting dollars on digital art.
• 51:48
  SPEAKER_00: Now, my entire understanding of digital art lives and dies with the NFT disaster of days gone by.
• 51:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, and I'm from tech, right?
• 51:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't understand what the hell makes digital art right today.
• 52:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm glad that NFTs are for the most part gone.
• 52:06
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but what is what is digital art?
• 52:09
  SPEAKER_00: What is what does it mean?
• 52:10
  SPEAKER_00: How do we collect it?
• 52:11
  SPEAKER_00: Um, you know, I have one of our artists, Emmanuel Signorino, who's a brilliant French artist, and I love him.
• 52:17
  SPEAKER_00: He does beautiful canvases, but he also does beautiful digital art that he does on his iPad.
• 52:22
  SPEAKER_00: And we had an event at the gallery where we actually connected his iPad up to a really large television screen and he live created for us.
• 52:30
  SPEAKER_00: And it was such a fun event.
• 52:32
  SPEAKER_00: It was so much fun, and it was such a hit.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_00: It was one of our Sunday salon programs.
• 52:36
  SPEAKER_00: But I don't know how to sell that.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_00: Like I don't know how to sell from his iPad into a collector's home.
• 52:43
  SPEAKER_00: I guess prints or something, but then at that point, is it no longer digital?
• 52:47
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I want to make sure that no matter what we go to off-screen while we're here in Paris.
• 52:52
  SPEAKER_00: But I wanted to talk to you first so I could have some idea of what I'm gonna expect.
• 52:58
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what is digital art in today's day and age?
• 53:01
  SPEAKER_01: I wish I knew, but that's kind of the fun part about digital art.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: If I can get nerdy for one minute.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you think about it theoretically, every art movement has had this sort of tidal wave effect of with a certain amount of pressure and emo and um intention or purpose, it changes the tide of thought, whether whether critical or public reception.
• 53:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so, you know, think Impressionism in the 1900s, the turn of the century.
• 53:29
  SPEAKER_01: Everyone hated it.
• 53:30
  SPEAKER_01: They were like, what is this garbage?
• 53:32
  SPEAKER_01: And then lo and behold, impressionists' works are some of the highly, most highly sought-after artworks in the world.
• 53:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I always try to keep that mindset when something's new.
• 53:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, even with NFTs, um, I dove right in and said, not financially, but said, I gotta understand this.
• 53:50
  SPEAKER_01: What's happening here?
• 53:52
  SPEAKER_01: You know, who are the voices?
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: What are people responding to?
• 53:55
  SPEAKER_01: And so with digital art, what I believe is happening, we saw the impact of NFTs, not just in the sense that it brought artwork kind of home, especially during a very intense period of quarantining or, you know, work from home where the intimate space that you inhabited became really important to curate with things that you believed in or you felt were beautiful.
• 54:19
  SPEAKER_01: Where I think digital art picked up the torch, so to speak, from the innovation of NFTs is that um it's no longer about the collectability, it's not as tokenized, but more or less imagining a work of art that takes just as long as an oil on canvas painting might.
• 54:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's just using digital tools.
• 54:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I I feel like today at least that digital art is an important movement in contemporary art, ultra-contemporary art, because it's using tools that we all have at our fingertips that we interact with every day.
• 54:58
  SPEAKER_01: And artists, as I always have been, are using this medium that we're all familiar with that it that isn't too foreign to us to create beautiful um images, scenes, um, worlds that we can understand because we're so digitally native at this point.
• 55:15
  SPEAKER_01: To answer your question about, you know, how do you collect it?
• 55:20
  SPEAKER_01: I've seen prints of digital artwork.
• 55:23
  SPEAKER_01: In fact, actually, uh last week, a David Hockney iPad drawing.
• 55:29
  SPEAKER_01: So David Hockney, who recently passed, um, very sadly, um in the in the latter phases of his life was making iPad drawings.
• 55:37
  SPEAKER_01: And okay, nobody questioned that these were valuable.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: I I can't remember the exact sum that it went for, but it was not$10.
• 55:46
  SPEAKER_01: It was it was investment level, David Hockney.
• 55:49
  SPEAKER_01: It was 12 pieces of paper of his iPad drawing, and it went at the Sotheby's evening sale.
• 55:57
  SPEAKER_01: That's fascinating.
• 55:58
  SPEAKER_01: I believe the reason people accepted it as fine art is because David Hockney, towards the end of his life, couldn't really hold a paintbrush and couldn't really grapple with drawing time and the physicality of painting.
• 56:09
  SPEAKER_01: And yet we all believe in this incredible artist who made some of the most iconic pieces of you know his generation and of the 21st and 20th century.
• 56:22
  SPEAKER_01: And so, why not let an artist use a medium that is more um accessible to him to still create his artwork?
• 56:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's so and so looking at a level like David Hockney, who I would say is is one of the top, um, and then applying that model to everyone else, it actually creates more room for accessibility.
• 56:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it also creates room for affordability.
• 56:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so I'm very excited about where digital art is taking us.
• 56:51
  SPEAKER_01: We'll see how the market responds.
• 56:54
  SPEAKER_01: But I think, you know, even the fact that there's a fair like off-screen, it goes to show that people see the value in this medium or genre of art, whether or not the buying market will support it is still to be determined.
• 57:09
  SPEAKER_00: So, you know, an interesting topic of discussion would be once the art escapes the digital and gets printed onto paper, is it still digital art?
• 57:21
  SPEAKER_00: Do I consider a physical paper print with physical materials of something that started as a digital piece?
• 57:28
  SPEAKER_00: Do I still consider that to be digital art?
• 57:30
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I do.
• 57:32
  SPEAKER_01: It's a great point.
• 57:34
  SPEAKER_01: The the other argument to be made is, you know, I, for example, I have a um a hand embellished silk screen of a Michaeline Thomas in looking at it right now above my office desk.
• 57:47
  SPEAKER_01: And it's of a painting.
• 57:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it's originally a painting that she used rhinestones and um, you know, oil and acrylic paint.
• 57:54
  SPEAKER_01: There's she's a mixed media multidimensional artist, collage, you name it.
• 57:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so I have a print of it.
• 58:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's a limited edition, it's got you know, sequins on it and things that were embellished by the printer.
• 58:08
  SPEAKER_01: I know that its original form was a painting, and yet the artist was involved in the making of this print.
• 58:16
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we think about it from a digital perspective, if a digital artwork is printed, it still has the spirit and the soul, so to speak, of the digital way it was created.
• 58:28
  SPEAKER_01: You're just viewing it in a different medium.
• 58:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't know if it still qualifies as a digital work of art, but it ties you back to the original method of creation, which was digitally.
• 58:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, it's interesting too now that you brought that up because uh I had never thought about it this way.
• 58:46
  SPEAKER_00: But if you take something that's a very physical art and then you digitize it in a way to make a print, you have added a digital element in there.
• 58:53
  SPEAKER_00: So isn't that digital art?
• 58:55
  SPEAKER_00: If if if a print of a digital is digital, and is it all aren't all prints somehow digital art as well and and as part of it?
• 59:03
  SPEAKER_00: So that's it's kind of an interesting conversation.
• 59:06
  SPEAKER_01: I like that because also what you're talking about is we're all so many degrees, you know, either apart or close to technology.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_01: And we use this word digital.
• 59:15
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it digital also may just mean, you know, like you said, something has been digitized or a photo or a scan has been done of something.
• 59:23
  SPEAKER_01: There are printmaking methods that are very actually, I want to say digital, meaning like hands, like digit-oriented.
• 59:30
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 59:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um but yeah, it's such a great point because we're all so familiar with different digit digital, digitized um methods of viewing and consuming art that I think this sort of hesitancy to embrace digital art is unfounded in a lot of ways.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 59:50
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know that I'm hesitant to embrace it for me personally.
• 59:53
  SPEAKER_00: I'm just hesitant to know what the hell it is.
• 59:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so excited.
• 59:56
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the very interesting discussions that I had in uh I took a class at Sotheby's um contemporary art history, was uh there's a lot of movements where we see technology driving the new methodology with art.
• 1:00:09
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so you'll see, you know, kinetic pieces that are based on the technology of the time, sculptures that move, um paintings that move, things that video record or that that capture images and the technology, new technology is driving new ways of creating art.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: Um, one of the discussions that we had that I was able to bring up as a technologist, having spent my career in technology, was um really what was happening at the beginning of the dot-com boom, where it was the opposite effect.
• 1:00:37
  SPEAKER_00: So let's for one moment look at um video pornography and digital pornography as an art form.
• 1:00:43
  SPEAKER_00: And if we do that, we can talk about how that industry single-handedly shaped technology and the internet and home computers.
• 1:00:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, what was so interesting at the time is we were designing, you know, really, this is what have been the late 90s, early 2000s, like really innovative software and database systems and technologies.
• 1:01:02
  SPEAKER_00: And we hired a lot of people from the pornography industry because they had the most robust graphic skills, digital skills, and the ability to get information down a pipeline to an end an end consumer.
• 1:01:17
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because and they the the porn industry was the first industry to actually start doing, like, say cam girls, right?
• 1:01:24
  SPEAKER_00: Where you could actually have a conversation and tell these these ladies what you wanted them to do.
• 1:01:30
  SPEAKER_00: Um, or there probably wasn't just women, but um, so there was this sort of back and forth, and there needed to be a fast and reliable way to transmit enormous amounts of bytes and bits back and forth.
• 1:01:44
  SPEAKER_00: Um, this is also a time where very few people took their computer home from the office.
• 1:01:49
  SPEAKER_00: So then you start seeing the explosion of laptops, right?
• 1:01:53
  SPEAKER_00: Because nobody really wants to look at pornography uh at the office.
• 1:01:58
  SPEAKER_00: And we don't encourage that here at uh Art Careers, our confident.
• 1:02:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but in addition to that, we had offices that had um, you know, God, it was like dial-up modems, right?
• 1:02:11
  SPEAKER_00: And then we had the faster modems, but then they had broadband and um was called, oh god, what was it even called back then?
• 1:02:18
  SPEAKER_00: T T something, um, where you had these pipelines of digital fiber cables that were coming into offices, but nobody really had that at home.
• 1:02:27
  SPEAKER_00: So anything that to be able to download pornography or to dial up and actually stream it in a way that wasn't just extremely pixelated required better technology.
• 1:02:38
  SPEAKER_00: So then it started becoming more accessible to the home, the home user and the home computer.
• 1:02:43
  SPEAKER_00: And that's when you had faster internet dial-up at home.
• 1:02:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this was really driven by the artistic movement of the pornography industry.
• 1:02:51
  SPEAKER_00: And it was the first time ever in the history of art that I'm aware of that it wasn't the technology driving the art, it was actually the art driving the technology.
• 1:02:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I thought that that was a really, really interesting discussion.
• 1:03:02
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's so fascinating.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_00: Isn't that cool?
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just grappling with it right now.
• 1:03:10
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, if I feel like normally the provocative, you know, sexual, um like often deemed as like um socially taboo is immediately met with censorship.
• 1:03:24
  SPEAKER_01: And and here we have not only is it not met with censorship, but actually it it drives, you know, industry.
• 1:03:31
  SPEAKER_01: It drives capitalism, it drives technological development that you and I are using today.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: We're using cameras to talk to each other.
• 1:03:38
  SPEAKER_01: And now we're using it to get art back into the world to the most amount of homes.
• 1:03:42
  SPEAKER_01: That's so fascinating.
• 1:03:44
  SPEAKER_01: I I love that.
• 1:03:46
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I think that's the perfect place to end our debut episode of Art Curious and Art Confident.
• 1:03:52
  SPEAKER_00: Again, I'm Desiree Asher, the Fonditries of Le Sendez Autiste with my co-host Ali Beatty of Beatty and Co.
• 1:03:58
  SPEAKER_00: Ali, thank you so much.
• 1:03:59
  SPEAKER_00: This was fantastic.
• 1:04:00
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh, this is my absolute pleasure.
• 1:04:02
  SPEAKER_01: I can't wait to do it again.
• 1:04:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, more to come.
• 1:04:05
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, and enjoy puzzle.
• 1:04:08
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you.
• 1:04:09
  SPEAKER_00: So I will catch up with you next week with all of the behind the scenes access that I was able to get.
• 1:04:14
  SPEAKER_00: And we'll have a discussion because I'm sure I'm gonna have a million questions, probably along the lines of how come this artist is priced at 5,000 and this artist is priced at 5 million, and I don't understand.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: And then you'll attend the link to us.
• 1:04:26
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, have so much fun.
• 1:04:27
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for having me, and we'll see you next time.
• 1:04:29
  SPEAKER_00: See you later.
• 1:04:30
  SPEAKER_00: All right, bye.