Latest / Spooky Butt / 12. A Bunch of Hooey with Mimi Zug

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12. A Bunch of Hooey with Mimi Zug · Spooky Butt

• speaker-0: you you hello, I'm Claire, very fearful host. Welcome to Spooky Butt. Today in Spooky Butt Studio, I am here with Mimi Zugg. Mimi works in advertising for The Local Palette Magazine, a Southern culinary and travel magazine. She has lived all over the country and currently lives in Annapolis, Maryland with her husband, Dr. Charles Zugg, and their chocolate lab, George. Mimi Zugg, welcome to Spooky Butt. hello. speaker-1: Thank you so much for having me on here. I'm so excited that you're doing this and I'm excited that you asked me to come on. speaker-0: Of course. Yeah, thank you so much for coming today. So I'll just start this off by saying that we met like almost 10 years ago in Austin, Texas. So spoiler alert, you're listening to this, you're probably going to get sick of us talking about Austin, but that's too bad because we loved our time there. But anyway, yeah, we met in Austin and we had a bunch of like very specific kind of weird things. I don't want to say like weird, but it was like weird that we had such specific things in common. speaker-1: Yeah, absolutely. speaker-0: We've just had a lot of like, really, I was thinking about this, you know, coming into this interview, we've had a lot of really weird like synchronicities in the way that our lives kind of like weave in and out together. So yeah, today's, this is going to be a fun one. This is going to be pretty crazy. Yeah. speaker-1: I it's it's funny you mentioned the synchronicity because I was listening to your episode with Jason and you were talking about synchronicities and I hadn't really thought about it before, but then I was thinking back to our how we met and our kind of like friendship and relationship over the years, and there have been so many like coincidences and things in common with us. and then even like the way we've moved since we've left Austin and kind of been close together again. yeah, it's just I don't think you would mention to me you, you know, your proclivity to synchronicities, but thinking back on it I was like it was kind of like glass shattering like all these things that were so similar about us, which is obviously why we became friends, but it's just very interesting to think back on it in that respect. speaker-0: Yeah, my God, that's crazy. Yeah, it's weird that I never mentioned that because I love synchronicity and that's just kind of always been a big part of my life. But it's funny because as I've done this podcast, I'm learning from other friends that, for the first, friends I've known for like 10 plus years, for the first time that they grew up in a very haunted house or whatever. I'm like, now you tell me. speaker-1: But I remember the very first day we met at the Timber Creek Pool in Austin at my apartment complex pool, we talked about supernatural things and we immediately connected on spooky things. And so it's such a full full circle moment for us to like be here talking about spooky butt. speaker-0: Right. my God, look at us. Look at us now. We're just, we're two teens podcasting is what it is. So like one thing, this is kind of like a little bit, I don't want to say throw away, but like you're like the first person that I've met who has like a similar relationship to music that I do. So like very, very into music, but like We're big music nerds, but neither of us play an instrument. Like we've never learned an instrument and we've never played in a band. So it was just so cool to finally meet someone who like I could talk to at the same level and like we could go to shows and things like that and just have these like really fun conversations and share music recommendations back and forth. So that was, you're still the only person I know who's like that. It's crazy. speaker-1: That's that's interesting. I feel like so much of that I do owe to Austin. I did not know a ton about music prior to getting to Austin. I'd like been learning a little bit in my early twenties. but then coming to Austin and listening to the local radio stations there and just kind of being a part of the music scene, I it just like truly I really think it changed my life. learning about music and and kind of the the music experience, of Austin really it just affected the way I the filters through which I look at the world. And I really owe that to the music I discovered in Austin. And I, yeah, I have absolutely no talent when it comes to music. I have no talent when it comes to art. I am not I love to I'm appreciator of the arts. I love I collect art. I have a bunch of art behind me right now. and I love my records. But boy, don't ask me to sing or hold a paintbrush. speaker-0: Right, right now I feel the exact same way. I did want to ask you, I keep forgetting, have you listened to the new Kacey Musgraves album called Middle of Nowhere? speaker-1: I have heard the singles, but I haven't listened to the album. I'm not the biggest Casey Mesgrace fan. I I appreciate her. I and I've seen her live and she's great, obviously. She's great. And she makes me laugh out loud in her music. but I'm not like her biggest fan necessarily, but I will check out the album for sure. speaker-0: Yeah, it's great. Because I'm kind of the same way. I'm kind of lukewarm on her. But it's cool because it's a return to form. And it's just a very, very well done Kacey Musgraves album. And she has a song on there called I Believe in Ghosts. I'm like, fuck yeah. Hell speaker-1: Hello. speaker-0: yeah. So speaking of hobbies and all that good stuff, you had mentioned that your favorite, biggest hobby is cooking. I will say so like to people listening, if you ever have the opportunity to stay with the Zugs, do it. You and Charles are phenomenal in the kitchen. think about- Thank you. speaker-1: Thank you. speaker-0: Yes, I think about 4th of July all the time. I'm always thinking about that potato salad and then the apple pie. speaker-1: The cheddar cheese crust apple pie, I will say. That was the that's what made it so special. speaker-0: Yeah, that's the first time I've had it like that, which is weird, because I've had apple pie my whole life. But yeah, you guys are just fantastic cooks, and it's so cool that you work now for a cooking and lifestyle magazine. It's just so on brand. But you also had mentioned that you kind of see cooking as a form of witchcraft. And when you sent me that message, that literally blew my mind. I've been on this planet for 34 years and I'm just like, you kidding me? I never thought about this. I do want to read real quick this statement that you said. It is a true physical manifestation of time and energy. You have to put so much thought into gathering ingredients, following recipes, much like a spell, controlling the elements to manipulate and transform an object. Then you consume it to transfer that energy to yourself. very witchy. And I just, I don't understand why I never thought of it that way, but that's, I don't know, that's so cool. speaker-1: Well you think back to like n not to interrupt, but like you think back to like the most obvious like pop culture idea of a witch and it's a woman standing over a cauldron, right? Like that's just she's cooking. So that's I mean it's it's so entangled with with witchcraft for sure. speaker-0: Yeah, so when did cooking, because like cooking, you grew up in a house that cooked and it was, you were taught young and all that good stuff. So like, when did this for you become like kind of a witchy spiritual practice? you know, I speaker-1: Would wanna say and this was kind of pre my discovery of of witches, if you will. I've always liked the idea of witches, but I didn't think of it as kind of a modern thing that could be a part of your own life until probably Austin. but when I graduated college and I lived in just a regular little apartment, my roommate was in night school. And so I would just be home alone in the evenings, which was new to me because in college I had 18 roommates. And so, you know, I would just put on a record and I would just start cooking and I didn't necessarily have a recipe I was following. I would usually just do some sort of a stir fry because I didn't know how to cook and that's the easiest thing to do. and it just became such a cathartic practice for me at the end of the day after you know, it was my first true eight to five office job. And so at the end of the day to just come home and put on a record, maybe have a little wine, maybe smoke a little weed. And just really lean into the cooking and like listen to the sizzling and get into the chopping of the ingredients and the smells. It just is so, it's so all-encompassing of the senses. and so for me, it became very, I think without me really realizing at the time, it became such a ritual, right? And so for me, it would just always, it was just such a a cathartic release ritual. And so I just started cooking more and more. And again, I moved to Austin and had all the roommates again, but then I had roommates to cook for. and I think you've been to a couple of my Oscar parties, maybe. Yes. and so I like to do a a dish for every best picture nominee, a a dish or a drink. and so that's just suddenly it's a way to bring people together. Or for my roommates in Austin, I would do a big spaghetti dinner, or I would make a pot pie or you know, something like that. and it's just you can put so much of your own energy and personal touch into it. And it's just such I mean, what better way is there to show love, you know, than to feed someone, in my opinion at least. And it's just so fun. And then I've I've gotten really into baking as well, which is a little bit more complicated, a little less forgiving. But I don't know, there's still give and take with baking. Like when you're making a pie crust, just add more water if it's too dry, you know? So there's it's not quite as precise as people want it to be. but Now I I find myself really, especially with baking, kind of baking intentions into it. Like you kind of speaker-0: Cool. speaker-1: Yeah, you kind of like think of a a mantra or a motto in your head and you know, you just really you really think that as you're working the dough or, you know, mixing the spices. and then before you bake it, I think that you can kind of transfer that energy into the into the bake. so I I really, I really love baking now the most, I think. speaker-0: that's so cool because like meal prep for me and like I like, you know, cooking as much as the next person and all that, but it just, one of those things where it's like for me, it's like, God, this is just another chore. But I'm like hearing this from you and I'm thinking, okay, I want to kind of work at this into my weekly routine. And it's funny, we're talking on a Sunday, cause Sunday is when I meal prep lunches and dinners for the week. So I'm going to be cooking right after we wrap here. But it's just, it's nice because it's like, instead of thinking like, God, this is another thing to knock off my to do list. It's like, hey, I can really be intentional with this and like, really like enjoy myself, listen to music or podcast or whatever and just get into it. speaker-1: And I think the intention behind it too, you know, I also I I discovered how important food is in terms of healing your body. Yes and and, you know, just being good to your body. and so that to me also like w whenever, you know, the weather starts to change and you know it's cut starts to be cold in flu season, I have this I just I call it my brew. Nice. that's what my husband and I call it. It's my brew and I and it's just it's filled with ginger and garlic and you know kale and bone broth and turmeric and pretty much anything you want to put in it. I I might do like I might chop up lion's manes, mushrooms, saute them, put it in there. And it's just it's just a true concoction of a soup. And it's just filled with all of these healing ingredients. and maybe I'll top it with some kimchi and and it's just filled with all these ingredients that truly fight off colds. And when you think back to You know, witches and witchcraft, I mean, a lot of it was just healing, right? Like they were just healers in the community. You and I took a class on witches together, you know you know it. but they were they were truly just medical healers. and a lot of that healing was done through, you know, the things that they were making in the kitchen. And so it really it's all so it's just so intertwined, you know. speaker-0: Right. pre, I guess like pre-all, the cooking hobby and all that good stuff, like, did you get into witchcraft in general, when you were in college? speaker-1: No, I always loved hocus pocus. speaker-0: Hell yeah. speaker-1: right. but no, I mean, once I got to Austin, I don't really know where it started. I think I maybe just saw a poster for the Austin Witches Circle. Nice. and I think I was I think I was just leaning more into the natural side of things, which is not how I used to be. but like I started buying. natural bar soap as silly as that sounds. and I was like, wow, this smells great and makes my skin feel great. So I just got into like more natural skincare, which I wouldn't necessarily recommend, but I was going through a phase. and so yeah, I was just kind of like leaning into making things for yourself. I had some roommates at the time who like made their own laundry detergent and I just had my, I don't know, I just my eyes were being opened to a different way of doing things and a different way of life and consumer goods. and so yeah, I I I think I just saw a posting for the Austin Witches Circle and it was at a bar that I liked to go to. and so I just discovered this community and I I wouldn't say I was necessarily a part of it as I was just a voyeur of it or you know, a light participant of it. but I I it was just really cool makers and artisans and badass women and just kind of opened my eyes to some some different things. And and you know, it's so weird again, going back to the synchronicity. I kind of so I got a got into this idea of of witches or witchcraft, if you will, or just I don't know, just the power of nature. And I found a book on my bookshelf and I don't know where it came from. It must I I mean I know I got it from like my parents' bookshelf, but I don't know when I took it or like how it I like ended it, ended up with it in my possession. But I had this book on my bookshelf and it was like it was called Earth Power, Harnessing the Powers of the Earth. speaker-0: my god. speaker-1: And it was like kind of this tarot card cover. and I was like, wait, this has just been on my bookshelf all this time, and now I'm suddenly very into this idea. and so next thing you know, I'm like collecting sticks by the river and like kind of maybe doing a little chant over them and throwing them back into the river. speaker-0: You speaker-1: but yeah, it's just, you know, I think so much you just have to open your eyes to. speaker-0: man, that's so cool. So like, do you consider yourself a witch or is this just something you just kind of like to take witchy things and apply them to your everyday- speaker-1: I yeah, I just I would just like I just like to take some witchy things here and there and apply them into my life. you know, I have a book behind me and it's the Good Witch's Guide. it's called The Good Witch's Guide, and it's just little little recipes for little little spells or healing herb concoctions and tinctures and that sort of thing. so no, I I I wouldn't necessarily consider myself a witch, but like what is a witch, right? I mean it's just it's just knowing how to use the elements. So, and and that's as simple as cooking. I mean, that's as simple as pressing ginger and pouring boiling water over it. because you know that's gonna make your throat feel better in the future. and so it's yeah, I just think we can, we can, there's so much at our fingertips in terms of the natural world. And I think it's just you you knowing how to use those things to your own benefit or to benefit of others. speaker-0: Right. it's, don't know, this is just so cool to hear like, okay, you can have these everyday hobbies or everyday like chores and whatnot that connect you to nature and that help you set intentions and whatnot. So that's just like such a cool way to frame it really. to just, you know, we live in a world where everybody's so addicted to their fricking phones. And so it's so hard. sometimes to just be present. this is great to just be like, hey, I can do little things throughout my day to keep me grounded and then to also like notice maybe the fantastic that's around me all the time. speaker-1: Yeah, I think that's such a good way to put it. And and you know, it's it's also a good way to recognize these sort of seasonal holidays that we have. I mean, yes, like Thanksgiving, Christmas, it's nice to cook. but like for the solar eclipse that happened two years ago, I made lemon bars because I feel like lemons and egg yolks kind of represent the sun and that those are the two speaker-0: ingredients. speaker-1: of of lemon bars and so just a a nice little way, I think, to pay homage to to the natural world and you know, there's always like a fall equinox meal or, you know, a summer solstice meal you can make. And so yeah, I just think it's it's such a nice little way to pay homage. speaker-0: That's so funny and that's, I don't know, it's so cool too because like maybe you have a family recipe that's been passed down for generations or you find like a historic cookbook and it's just like such a cool way to keep things alive. I do have a funny little story. So I recently bought an ice cream maker and this is so stupid and it's so me, but I bought it with the intention of trying to make the peach ice cream that Typhoid Mary was known for. shoot. I found out about this through Tasting History with Max Miller. So I can send you the YouTube video, but it's like, I would make the peach ice cream without the like typhoid, obviously. But I don't know, it's just it's something that's just like funny to me. And it's like, OK, this would be just like a fun experiment to do. So we'll see. I haven't haven't tried it out yet. I've made other types of ice cream, which are fantastic, but I'll, I'll get around to the peach ice cream one of these days. speaker-1: That's such a good idea, and it's such a good way to honor history as well. this I've probably told you this, but years ago, my husband and I were watching Mad Men and we watched all of Mad Men. And the night that we were gonna watch the series finale, we made like a 1950s or 1960s style dinner, and we like got dressed up. speaker-0: Nice! it's perfect! speaker-1: Just the two of us, and we got like kind of dressed up. and he made Beef Wellington and and I I can't remember. It was just all sort of like deviled eggs, like I made these little candied cigarette things and it's speaker-0: my god. speaker-1: just there's so there's such like playfulness in food, you know. speaker-0: Speaking of Mad Men, I was just thinking about this. One of my favorite scenes from that entire series, it's one of the earlier seasons, it's where Pete Campbell throws the roast chicken out the window. speaker-1: He's my baby. speaker-0: my God. That's so perfect. That's an interactive way to enjoy a TV show. Mad Men is the literal perfect show for that, for doing a dinner party, the cocktails, maybe you do. like lamb with mint jelly, know, right. speaker-1: Right. Yeah. speaker-0: God. So funny. So do you want to talk about how you've lived in kind of a short period of time? You've moved a lot all over the country. And so you had mentioned that, like, you can kind of feel the energy of places and how, like, every place has its own, like, for lack of a better term, unique vibe. So how do you kind of connect? when you move to a new place? Because you recently moved to Annapolis. So what's that like? speaker-1: for me, it's just as simple as taking walks. and and I do love to go to a a city's downtown as well. so it's just it's just walking around and and soaking it in. You know, we're lucky where we are here. I've been in Annapolis for about two weeks and we're a block away from a little from the bay, essentially. and so we've been walking down to this pier every night and just feeling, you know, the the salt air and and you know smelling the brackish water. and then, you know, going downtown there, it's the Naval Academy is here. And so it's all these, you know, families with their, you know, their kids they're sending off to the Naval Academy. It's just, I don't know, it's just really taking the time to, you know, be aware of your surroundings and open up your eyes and kind of listen to tidbits of conversations here and there. you know, we also lived in Colorado Springs, which was not for me. I'm far more of a water girl than a mountain girl. but that, you know, that was its own its own vibe. And, you know, the the mountain air was so different and the people there were, you know, it was all about, you know, the hiking, but they were very connected to the to the earth in that way. And they had such respect for Pikes Peak, which is the kind of the main mountain that you see in the skyline of Colorado Springs. And yeah, I There the the respect for nature was quite palpable there for sure. and then and then here, you know, it's just it's all about the boating. And in Austin it was all about floating the river and being on the river and near the river. And yeah, it's just I I just think it's so the the energies of the place have just all been very specific and and unique. speaker-0: Yeah, that's so cool. Because it's so neat to connect with different, I guess, topography. Exactly. speaker-1: And that's how you learn, you know, what you connect with. Like for me, I I always thought I liked the mountains from I I just didn't know. I had been to Denver once. I I hadn't had a lot of experience, but I always liked the idea of it. and then living among the mountains, I was like, I need a body of water. You know, this is actually not for me. I actually found actually found the mountains to be a bit claustrophobic, like looking speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: out on the horizon and not seeing the horizon. I felt it made me feel kind of boxed in. and then we moved to Missouri from Colorado and that was a little bit more comfortable for me. Again, I think I like the wide open spaces. and now that we're here by the water, I'm like, man, I need to be by the water. I mean, there's just such a comfort in it for me and and a recharging energy. and I'm a Pisces, so maybe it's the line that I just I need I need to be the water. So yeah, it's it's it's interesting and it's it's interesting to move around, even if you don't love every place you've lived. It just teaches you a lot about different lifestyles and and different communities and and how people vary from place to place. I don't it's it's been very fascinating. speaker-0: Yeah, and it's, I do have to say it's fantastic that you moved by the water in late summer because you get to have a Widows Bay experience. speaker-1: It's it's all Widows Bay. I like I cultivated our aesthetic inside very much around Widows Bay. speaker-0: my God. Perfect. That makes me so happy. It's so perfect. Yeah. Widows Bay. Check it out on Apple TV. Not me plugging Widows Bay on my podcast. Just in speaker-1: Perfect summer show. We are not sponsored. speaker-0: Yeah, we are not. Please sponsor us. So like with all the different kind of places you've lived and like the different natural surroundings, is there another place that you would love to maybe visit or like live for a short period of time just to kind of check out? the vibes and the energy. speaker-1: you know, I don't have much experience with the West Coast. and so I think that we've, you know, I I grew up going to Cape Cod. We spent my husband and I spent a year in western Massachusetts on the Vermont border. I've lived in Texas, South Carolina, the Midwest, you know, Colorado, but I really don't know much about the the the far west coast, California. My husband's from Washington State. but he's from eastern Washington and so we haven't really I've never been to Seattle. so I think I think maybe like Bay Area or, you know, Seattle area, even like San Diego I've never been to. I just that's that's a a world that's very foreign to me. So I think I would love to kind of check that out. speaker-0: Yeah, I've been on the West Coast. I haven't lived there, but I've visited plenty of times. Fantastic seafood, fantastic vibes. speaker-1: Yeah. speaker-0: I have never been, this is weird, I've never been to the Pacific Northwest. And I have friends from there and it's just like, I haven't been there yet and I'm like, hmm, does stuff need to move into place before I can visit? speaker-1: Interesting. Yeah. I I mean I never really had. I I've only been to California once. I I visited San Francisco once as a kid. I'd never been to the Pacific Northwest. And then, you know, when I first went back to meet my husband's family, we were in Walla Walla, Washington, the place so nice, they named it twice. Nice. and and Spokane, which were I mean, totally different topography, geography, the the dryness was so new to me coming from Austin and Charleston and Houston. so yeah, that was totally different. But God, it's it's gorgeous. The drive from Spokane to Walla Walla through eastern Washington. I mean, I felt like we were in Ireland or something, just these rolling green hills and where they are, Walla Walla is big wine country. So speaker-0: How can speaker-1: there's just vineyards everywhere. and we like went we went to this vineyard that was on top of a hill and on the hillside growing was fresh lavender. and there were horses and strawberry patches. And I was like, my God. I mean, the West Coast. My goodness, there's a lot going on. but Washington is so fascinating too. You know, it's the only rainforest in North America. Yeah, speaker-0: and... it's a rainforest? speaker-1: technically designated as such, yeah. So speaker-0: Wow. speaker-1: it's it's worth checking out. I actually think you would like it for sure. speaker-0: Yeah, I'll definitely have to check it out. one of my good friends is from Vancouver, so I'll make it up there at some point. It's funny that you're mentioning West Coast vineyards, because I feel like us being 90s kids, the parent trap had a very profound impact on us. Yes. speaker-1: the parent trap probably every day for at least a year. the Lindsay Lohan version, obviously. yeah, I it had a profound impact on me. speaker-0: Literally the perfect setting, like the shot of her running through the grapevines towards the house. Yeah. It's literally the perfect part of the movie. speaker-1: I hadn't even thought about that, but there are there are similarities with the Washington vineyards I've been to for s speaker-0: And then, as far as the wine goes, do you think that's good wine? Is there a specific part of the country that you think has the best wine? speaker-1: yeah, I mean now that I now that I know about think you know Columbia Valley in general I think has really good wine. so whenever you're you know trying to find something new I would look for Columbia Valley which is kind of Washington wine I think some in Oregon as well. but specifically the Walla Walla Appalachian is fantastic really fantastic and I you know I'm from Texas and Texas wines are good. There's a there's a wine called Becker Claret which is really good. And I've also lived in mid-Missouri and they claim to have a lot of wine. speaker-0: Great, but it's there. speaker-1: It's there. I it's there. Super recommended. but I would say that yeah, yeah, the Washington wines and Oregon wines are really phenomenal. speaker-0: They are. I remember living in Austin and I got really into Oregon wines. Do you remember that like canned, it was like canned Pinot Noir and it had that just like very simple, like really cool label that took up most of the can. I'm pretty sure that's an Oregon wine. That makes sense. speaker-1: That makes sense. Yeah. Yeah. For sure. And Austin is when I kind of got more into wine because I was a a liquor rep for a couple of years. Did speaker-0: That's right, yes. speaker-1: wine tastings and I I was just making shit up. I mean, I didn't even know what I was saying. but I did I did get sort of into it and I did learn a good bit. And it's funny we're talking about this because I literally just said to my husband the other day, I was like, I need to take a wine class. Like I was learning a good bit there for a minute. But I've lost it all and I just I feel like I don't know as much these days and I want a like a true refresher on on wines. And so that's funny. I w he was like, yeah, you should go to this place that has these classes and so it's funny we're talking about it now 'cause we were just having this conversation. speaker-0: That's awesome. like the East Coast, like Annapolis, like the DC region is probably fantastic for that because there's so much entertaining that goes on. yeah, for sure. You're in like the perfect place for it. Man, that's so cool. So we've gotten to the point in the show where we're going to switch gears a little bit, lot of bit. Well, not well, whatever. The whole thing has been spooky. But yeah, you have brought some really, really fantastic spooky tales for us. So what I would like to start with is your origin story in San Antonio. speaker-1: Yeah, so I said this to Clara the other day. I feel as though I've been quite ghost adjacent my whole life. it's ghost stories have always been a big part of my life. and that really started because the first house I lived in as a baby, I don't I don't recall it, obviously. but my hair my parents bought an old house in San Antonio in the King William district of San Antonio. and it was on the official Texas Register of Historic Buildings. And it was home to Senator Theodore Hertzberg, who was a big businessman, statesman in the late 1800s, I want to say, mid to late 1800s. and I think he did a lot of business deals out of the house. it's this, you know, very, I think, impressive looking kind of old house. And they very much bought it as a fixer upper, which is I think how they want Able to afford it early in their in their marriage with two babies essentially. and as soon as they moved in, they truly started having experiences in this house. my I think my mom's first experience that she had was she was they were working on the house. Like I mentioned, it was a fixer-upper, and she was kind of up on a ladder and she needed help, and she was calling for My dad thinking that she was seeing him walking around in the house and thinking that he was like wearing a backwards baseball cap, which isn't really his style. But she was like, Well, that's him, so let me let me call him over. And he wasn't responding. And she was like, Why isn't he responding? She got down off the ladder and she goes and finds him and he's in the backyard. And she was like, Why don't you come? Like you were you were like standing right in there. You didn't come when I was calling for you. And he was like, No, no, no, I've been out in the backyard this whole time. and then that's when my mom kind of started doing research on the house. And I don't know if it was Senator Hertzberg himself, but it might have been was was Jewish and she realized that what she was maybe seeing was a man in a yarmulka. speaker-0: Wow. Yeah. speaker-1: and so I think that was kind of the first, the first time. lots of bangs in the night. one time my dad was out of town, and my mom was trying to put my sister to bed as a baby. and she was almost there. It had been a big struggle, and my sister was finally starting to drift off, and they hear the front door open and close and footsteps. And so then my sister shoots up in bed and she's like, Daddy's home. And my mom was like, Okay, I'll go get daddy, and he'll Say goodnight, but then you have to go to bed. and my dad was not home. There was no car in the front driveway or anything. speaker-0: my god. speaker-1: And then, you know, another, you know, family lore story my mom always tells is my grandmother was in town visiting, and they were all sitting around the dining room table, and they left their plates on the table. They were like, let's just move into the living room. Let's get more comfortable. We'll just go come and do the dishes later. And they're sitting on the couch in the living room, and my grandmother says, Well, I don't believe in all this ghost stuff. I think that's a bunch of hooey. And with that, they hear a pop from the dining room. And the plate that had been at my grandmother's place had broken clean in half. Crazy, crazy. I think my grandmother just gave a little like, okay, I hear you. I understand. speaker-0: Point taken. speaker-1: Yeah, and a similar thing. I had a we had they had a one of my aunts in town, and she was using the restroom and people kept knocking on the door, and she was like, I'm in here. I'm not like, I'm in here, come back later. She goes downstairs where everyone was. And she was like, Who kept knocking on the door? Like you all knew I was going to the bathroom. And they were like, No one was knocking on the door. No one went up there. so the stories like that just kind of go on and on. my mom says that my sister, when she was a toddler, or maybe a little bit earlier than that, she says it was a little soon for her to be talking. and my sister would kind of pull herself up. In her crib and say, Who's that? What's that? Just pointing at nothing. That's speaker-0: my god speaker-1: that's enough. I think I probably so just yeah, it's the stories go on and on. And so I just my whole life I just was always hearing these family lore stories about this house in San Antonio. there was another time that a guy came and knocked on the door, and my mom said. You know, can I help you? And he said, I was just reading this plaque, because it again it was on kind of the n the Texas Historic Register. So there was a plaque out front. And the guy said, I was just reading this plaque. I'm actually, you know, Theodore Hertzberg's great great grandson, and I just wanted to come see the house. speaker-0: wow. speaker-1: And with that, there was a huge clatter from within the from inside the house. and the guy was like, my gosh, do you need to go check on that? And my mom was like, No, I I know what that was. You know? 'cause they believe that, you know, Senator Hertzberg was was the ghost and so speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: saying hi to his great great grandson with a with a clatter. speaker-0: What's that clatter like? Did something break? wow. speaker-1: No obvious source of that noise when she went back in. speaker-0: Wow, so how long did your parents live in that house? speaker-1: I think just a few years. I I wanna say probably three years, maybe four years. speaker-0: Wow. So like, did they ultimately move? get, well, it was a fixer upper. So did they ultimately move like because of the activity or was it just like, 10 minutes? No, my dad. speaker-1: got a job in Connecticut, so they moved from Texas to Connecticut. speaker-0: okay. I didn't know you lived in Connecticut. speaker-1: A baby, you know, I think I was a toddler. I think I was there from ages, you know, three to six ish, probably. so so maybe they were in that San Antonio house for closer to probably probably four to five years, but yeah, so I just I grew up hearing these stories, and so it was just always that I, you know, would hear repeated my whole life, and then I would repeat them and tell them just to friends, and so it just very much was a part of my life, and then I go to Charleston, South Carolina for college, and the ghost just kept coming. I wasn't necessarily seeking it out, but if I was looking for a summer job, and a friend of mine worked at a tour company in downtown Charleston called Bulldog Tours, the best tour company in Charleston, and it was a history and ghost tour company. and so I thought that I was gonna be basically working the front desk, which I did eventually. but for the first year or two of the job, I my main job was to work down at the old city jail in Charleston, which was the main jail for the city of Charleston from the years 1802 to 1939. and I wasn't a tour guide, but I kind of I would go and I would open it up and make sure the bathrooms were clean and take tickets and monitor the guests as the tours were coming and going. and that You know, that sp spawned a lot of stories. speaker-0: Yeah, so with the old Charleston jail, okay, so like you're working for this tour company, the Charleston jail wasn't where the offices were, right? speaker-1: No. So they Bulldog Tours has at the time and I and I think they're still the only tour company that gives tours of the of the jail, but now it has other uses as well. but at the time they were given the rights to host ghost tours in and out of the out of the jail. And and they it's always history tours, but there are ghosts wrapped up in the history of the location. and so no, the the office itself was way down by You know, the water and the market. So this was kind of tucked away back in the neighborhoods of Charleston, actually not far from my college house where I lived for three years. so it was sort of convenient because I could it was a quick walk home for me. but yeah, a lot of the job was opening it up before anyone was there. Sometimes I'd have to close it when there wasn't a a tour kind of in the distance, but I'd have to kind of close up this one area of it. and yeah, so I was I was there alone a good bit. they say they always said at the at the tour company that the jail, the building chose who could work there. my my friend who who got me the job, she refused to work at the jail. They tried to have her go down and kind of be this ticket taker role. and she did it a few times and she said, I'm not doing that anymore. And someone else, a couple other people in the office had the same experience. And I don't think it's you can kind of pin it to any one thing. but they were just like, I'm not, I'm not working at that building. Like, I can't go there. Whereas I always felt a strange connection to it. speaker-0: god. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean, I definitely respected it and I respected its history. and I I don't know, I feel like it the building let me work there. and so I I I did. I I worked for the company for about five years and I wasn't at the jail as much throughout that time, but I always was there, at least, you know. speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: a good bit of the percentage that I was working there. and same with the tour guides. Only a few tour guides would would give tours there. A lot of the tour guides would refuse. so yeah, it was it's it has deep, deep history. I can kind of give you a a little overview. speaker-0: Well, I do have a question. So the jail chooses who can work there. that just specific to that building on the tour or were there other buildings where it's like the inn only chooses who can work there? Was it just like the jail that has like this crazy like energy? speaker-1: It was it was mostly the jail in my experience. I didn't really hear people talk about other locations like that. And I think a lot of that's because a lot of the other locations where these tours would take place were used for other things. You know, it would be, you know, an old church in town or the provost building dungeon, where there was businesses operating out of every day. Whereas the jail and the things have changed now, but at that time the jail was only used for these tour companies and well just the one tour company and then during the day it was a an architecture school very small very small because not architecture is not the right word it was people who were learning to do kind of like metalwork and speaker-0: Interesting. speaker-1: in the style of of you know early Charleston so that they could restore these historic buildings essentially with speaker-0: Awesome. speaker-1: methods, but a very small, very small school, not a ton of people. and I think they all had their own their own stories as well. speaker-0: I wonder if that's the students there, if some of them were driven away. It would be hard to run a business out of there if it's like, sign up for this class. And yeah, you'll work in the old Charleston jail to learn blacksmithing techniques. And then it's like, some of these students who probably paid all this money, maybe there was a ghost clause or something in the paperwork. my god. speaker-1: I think was always definitely a topic of conversation. And now it's been now it's been renovated and it's used as event space. I think there is kind of an office space there. And that's really, really wild to me. There's a a reality show actually that had a scene of the show based in Charleston. It had a scene of the show where they were throwing a big party in the jail and watching it, I like sort of had a bit of a physical reaction because I was like, this just feels so wrong that they're like having this big you know, raucous party with white linens in in this room because I know about the atrocities that happen there. and I just I just I don't know. I just have a lot of respect for the building. and I guess it's good that it's finding new use and a second life, if you will, but it couldn't be me. speaker-0: I wonder if like for that reality show, I wonder if they ran into just nightmare technical issues, you know, trying to get that done. speaker-1: Technically it's a good question. I mean, cell phones, when I in my experience, they would sometimes randomly lose charge there at the building. Wow. Yeah. I think I think that happened to a friend of mine where I think she did a tour and the her phone was like dead, even though it wasn't close to dead at the start of the tour. so yeah, I I don't know how they do it, but apparently they're doing it. speaker-0: Wow, that's crazy. So yeah, I guess do, I mean, there's so much history there, but yeah, if you could give like a brief historical overview. speaker-1: Yeah. so they started building it in seventeen eighty-seven. It opened two in eighteen two and then, you know, was the only jail in Charleston until nineteen thirty-nine, which is kind of a long time. I mean, that's a lot of modernity for that to still be the only building. and I encourage anyone listening to this to go and Google the old city jail in Charleston and you'll see it. And it is it's quite a formidable building. Like it it looks haunted, just to look at it. so yeah, it was the only jail in use during that time. It was built to hold about a hundred and forty prisoners, and I think they would have upwards of a thousand in speaker-0: my god. speaker-1: it was and there weren't cells in a traditional sense, the way you think of a jail. It was kind of just big open rooms with that had heavy locked doors. and this is this is gross, but it was basically a giant hamster cage. It was just horrible, horrible living conditions. from the time that it was used from 1802 to 1939, over 13,000 people died on the property, mostly speaker-0: my god. speaker-1: due to the living conditions within the jail. I mean, it was just it was just, you know, harbored infection and disease. And sure, I'm I'm sure people were were murdered in there as well and and people were hanged out back. but a lot of that, most of that death is just infection and disease and poor. Quality of living for sure. I would say the most famous story of the jail that most people know about, or not most, but I I think if you know anything about it and you're taking the tour, is that it housed Lavinia Fisher, who is known as America's first female serial killer. speaker-0: boss. speaker-1: The the story goes, she and her husband owned the six mile house outside of Charleston, six miles outside of Charleston, and speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: people were disappearing. some men went to check it out, and they discovered that Lavinia and her husband were part of this gang, and she would they would take in travelers because that was the point of the house. You know, six miles you would stop before your, you know, end of your trip on the way to Charleston the next day. and she would serve them tea. And would poison them and then kill them and rob them. And a guy went to, you know, had heard the rumors and went to kind of investigate and stayed the night, was sent up some tea, didn't drink the tea, and in the night Lavinia came in and pulled a lever and his bed fell into a dungeon and speaker-0: my god. speaker-1: you know, with the intention of of robbing him and and he gets away. And goes and tells the police, and the police come out and and arrest Lavinia and John Fisher for killing all these people, all these travelers who had disappeared. And they, you know, they claimed they were innocent, but you know, that I think they were not believed. they were held in the jail for at least a year, I think a little bit longer. Ultimately they were found guilty. And in this time, rumors had, you know, swept the area. And she she basically had a John was hanged out back of the of the jail, and she had a very public hanging in the town square that hundreds of people showed up for. And she insisted on being hanged in her wedding dress speaker-0: my god. speaker-1: before as she was like being read her last rites. sh the the guy said, you know, I the minister, whoever it was, said, Do you have any last words for God? And she said, No, but if you have any words for the devil, tell me and I'll carry them to him. speaker-0: my god speaker-1: Left off the gallows to her death. that's kind of the big sensationalized story, and people claim that she's one of the main ghosts that you see there at the jail. of course, very little of that is actually true. I think there probably was some highway robbery gang. I don't think she was probably involved in it. I just think that was a good place to find travelers. and it was happening on their property. And so someone had to be held r accountable for that. and I think that they were both arrested because murders were happening in and around their property. I don't think she had a chamber in the dungeon where speaker-0: Okay. speaker-1: I think their story just got very sensationalized and she was kind of wrong place, wrong time. or maybe just if anything, turned a blind blind eye to highway robbers. but you know, I think she probably suffered immensely at her time in the jail because she was most likely the only woman in a jail full of male criminals. and so I think I think she she really truly suffered in her time there. And I think she was just sensationalized because she was an a a f you know, thought to be a female criminal and legends, you know, history becomes legend, legend becomes myth. and I I think she was probably fairly innocent and then had to experience a lot of really bad stuff. So that's story. speaker-0: I'm surprised because I get that human rights are kind of a recent thing and rights for prisoners, but it does surprise me that they wouldn't have them, men and women, That's crazy. So she was in the hamster cage. God. speaker-1: Yeah, yeah. so yeah, it's it's it's dark for sure. and there the jail itself was also built on top of a potter's field. speaker-0: my god speaker-1: It's just yeah, it's a tough, tough situation. so yeah, I mean all those shows like Ghost Hunters and Ghost Adventures went out there. Ghost Hunters actually said that they would not come back. they would not film there again because one of their producers got pretty scratched up. speaker-0: my god speaker-1: Yeah. And you know, I I experienced a few things. There was this one spot on the tour where people, I think women especially would get kind of lightheaded, were not feel well. And one time a woman on a tour got sick in that spot on the tour. And so I had the lovely job of having to go and clean it up in between tours. speaker-0: my god speaker-1: in this and there's no there's no electricity or anything and so I was just in this dark room on the second level of this jail by myself like cleaning up vomit holding my phone as a light and I I'm pretty sure I heard a whisper. I'm not sure. I mean it could have been you know it could have been sound carrying from the tours happening within the building. and I was also just spooked out to be in that speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: in to begin with in the dark. but it was definitely creepy. you know, one time I was doing an overnight investigation, they called it. You're you just are in the jail for about four hours overnight. and I we were walking into a room and I was like, wow, the AC is really blowing in here. And of course, there's no electricity. There's speaker-0: my god speaker-1: just like this crazy cold air that I was feeling. Yeah, I mean it's lots of strange photos would come out of there. Someone took a a tourist took a photo and I was in the photo and there was this, you know, wild light next to me. And I've definitely seen some photos with some face looking images in there. one time I saw a woman get really act very strange and kind of collapse and have a bit of a seizure. on the grounds of the jail and so much so that she had to be taken away in an ambulance. And from what I saw, she was just on a tour and started looking up at a window of the jail and started walking towards it. And then she started walking in a circle and then she like grabbed her neck and seized up and fell to the ground and then and then had what looked to be like a seizure. So you know, I I called nine one one. I think other tourists were calling nine one one. And then she woke up and she and and I don't believe she was faking it. Like her her dress was kind of like pulled up over, was just pulled up too high to where a a woman wouldn't like let herself not speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: be that situation. And she woke up and she started or came to and she started talking about a birthday party and her aunt and her boyfriend who was with her was like she doesn't have an aunt. It just very, very strange, very strange. I got very freaked out that that night. speaker-0: That's crazy. Yeah speaker-1: Really crazy, really crazy. some folks went in and they paid for a overnight investigation. This I wasn't there at the time. and they insisted on bringing a Ouija board. And and the tour guide was like, I don't think you should do that. speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: And they did. And it after that night, some violent stuff started happening, like bricks being thrown. and I think it was after that night that the ghost hunter ghost hunters group came out and someone got pretty scratched. so yeah, it's it's no joke. I had a dog as well. I was helping a friend take care of a dog one summer, and the dog did not like being out there at all. And so yeah, it's I think there's some real energy. there and I and I think that's what it is. I think I think if if ghosts are real, I think what it is is energy that is exerted perhaps at the end of a life. I think it just it gets quantum entanglement essentially. I think it gets tangled up with the energy that's already in existence at a location. and I think that's what if anything causes experiences. speaker-0: Yeah, like it's a residual haunting. It's like energy is just like maybe magnetic fields, building materials, whatever can kind of like help to just fuel it for decades and decades and decades. speaker-1: Yeah, I mean th the energy is is real, right? Right. it's like when you walk into a room after maybe there's been a fight and you can kind of feel it. Like the air is thick. I so imagine someone's like killed or dies in a really horrible way and you know, terrible energy is exerted in those last moments and and it's at a place where there is already existing energy, I just think those those two energies get tangled up and then you're stuck. speaker-0: my God. So when you were working there, like you mentioned the second floor not having electricity. like, because I'm wondering, so was built in the late 1700s, ran until the 1930s. Were there any like upgrades done to the building or did it literally look like a 1780s interior? speaker-1: No, it it literally looked. I mean, there there was one room where bathrooms were where tourists could come in and and use the restroom and then there was a little kitchen set up. So like there had been some renovations and clearly they had like hooked up electricity to be in this one room, but the majority of the jail did not have electricity. I mean, there had been some jerry rigged, you know, things here and there. and a couple updates. But for the most part, it was in that same condition that it was in eighteen two until nineteen thirty nine. speaker-0: wow. That's crazy. Yeah, I'm thinking about the event space and all that and it's like, you imagine trying to renovate that frickin' building and put in electrical lines and plumbing and just, I wonder how many construction workers just walked off the job, honestly. speaker-1: Right. And and I I have to imagine they experience things. And then it's also it's also just a really beautiful old building. You know, right before I moved away from Charleston, I kind of they the tour company sent me down there to wait for some sort of building inspector who had to come and do an annual test and report. So I was there in broad daylight by myself and and I just kind of walked around the whole building and it is beautiful. But to me, there just is a palpable energy there. But I kind of, you know, I walked around the whole building and I sort of said goodbye because I was about to move away. and so I've I've had like nice moments there too with with nothing. I mean, I was walking around the building, nothing happened to me. I didn't see anything or didn't experience anything. So it's not, you know, it's not a given that that something will happen. And in most cases, nothing does. You know, they run five to eight tours there a day. and most people don't see or feel anything. But I think You know, once you're there for a long enough time and, you know, you kinda have your your ear to the ground enough as it as it were, you you eventually will have some experiences. speaker-0: Wow. I've never been to Charleston, and this is, of course, making me want to go. I need to go. I kind of want to go with you and Alex. Alex, was on an earlier episode, and just get into all the oaky-spookies. do you think, or is this maybe part of the local lore? Is the Charleston jail probably the most haunted location in Charleston? Wow. speaker-1: Yeah. I mean they say it's like s definitely the most haunted building in Charleston. I think it's probably up there for the state and even even the country, you know. And I think you can you can claim that because any any property on which thirteen thousand people died, you know, I think you're you have a you have a reason to claim it's haunted. speaker-0: Yeah, like died miserably, you know, in like the worst way possible. speaker-1: And people do know the Lavinia Fisher story and or the sensationalized version at least and they wanna come for that and you know see a a ghost in her wedding dress, which you're not gonna see. But speaker-0: Right speaker-1: but yeah, it definitely has that reputation. speaker-0: So with Lavinia Fisher, was she, I guess, she just maybe buried in a potter's field or does she have a designated grave? speaker-1: He was buried in a Potter's field. speaker-0: Okay. Yeah, because I was like, man, maybe we pay our respects and be like, sorry. Yeah. speaker-1: Absolutely. I I feel like I did I did do that a couple times just in the jail. We know the room that she was held in primarily. speaker-0: And... speaker-1: and they call it Lavinia's room. but yeah, it's it's a terrible story. Apparently she was she was young and beautiful, of course. speaker-0: no. speaker-1: Yeah, just just awful. speaker-0: And I think, so I was doing a little bit of research. didn't want to do too much because I wanted to hear the story from you, but I think like Lavinia Fisher, that kind of happened maybe in like the 1820s. So at that time, like at that time, was it like a sardine can? Like, was it just packed to the brim with prisoners? my God. speaker-1: would have been. And I'm sure you that there were ebbs and flows and how many people were held there at a certain time. but yeah, I think for the most part it was pretty packed to the brim. speaker-0: wow. Man, this is wild and this is great PR for the city of Charleston and for Bulldog tours and all that good stuff. okay, just to, I believe you said this, so I apologize for forgetting, but there are tours that still do, like they can still go into that building, right? speaker-1: Yes, I don't think they have full access to the whole building the way the tours did when I worked there. but yeah, they do still do nightly tours. I think you're only I think they can only go to maybe the first floor and the dungeon, or the basement. I think it's just like a slightly sunken floor. But yes, they're they do still have the tours there. You can still hear the full history. the tour guides are amazing. All all the pulldog tours are are really great. They also do Ghost and Graveyard Tour, which I really recommend. It goes to In Dungeon Tour, which goes through buildings closer to downtown. so yeah, I I highly recommend it. And and the jail is creepy for sure. speaker-0: my god. So we've made it to the end of the episode. So I like to ask guests if there's anything they want to end on or any last words. And I should mention that Mimi's wearing a wedding dress. She has a noose around her neck. No, I'm kidding. So do you have any parting words you'd like to share with our listeners? speaker-1: you know, I would just say keep keep your eyes open to what's around you. That sounds so lame. but just truly be aware of your surroundings. I just think there's there's real magic in the air, if you will. and visit Charleston and visit Austin and visit Western Massachusetts and Colorado Springs and Bid Missouri. I would say just just travel, you know, there's so much to see and so much to do. And a lot of it is not in sensational places necessarily. but I think there is sensation everywhere you go. speaker-0: perfectly said. Thank you so much for joining me today. speaker-1: Thank you. speaker-0: On that note, good-bye! Thank you for listening to this episode of Spooky Butt. Music by Drew Mantia. Artwork by Lauren Seeley. Listen to Spooky Butt on Spotify, Apple Podcasts, and YouTube. Please be sure to like, rate, and subscribe. Follow Spooky Butt on Instagram at Spooky Butt Podcast. Need to make contact? Send us an email at spookybuttpodcast at gmail.com. We'll see you on the other side. Goodbye!