Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 195. Democratizing Donor Advised Funds to Grow Philanthropy for All - John Bromley

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195. Democratizing Donor Advised Funds to Grow Philanthropy for All - John Bromley · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:01
  Jonathan McCoy: Hey, I'm John.
• 0:02
  Becky Endicott: And I'm Becky.
• 0:03
  Jonathan McCoy: And this is the we are for good podcast.
• 0:05
  Becky Endicott: Nonprofits are faced with more challenges to accomplish their missions and the growing pressure to do more work, raise more and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:14
  Jonathan McCoy: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:23
  Becky Endicott: So welcome to the good community. We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropist, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 0:34
  Jonathan McCoy: So let's get started. Hey, Becky,
• 0:37
  Becky Endicott: we've known our guests for 10 minutes, I already feel like he's like a lifelong, he's like a bro
• 0:41
  Jonathan McCoy: up north. We're so excited. We're talking to John Bromley today, he's the founder and CEO of charitable impact, he is going to make accessible something that I think is talked about as really inaccessible. And that is the donor advised fund, he really disrupted this space, he is leaning into this idea that everybody can be a philanthropist, as we all learn about what our passion is what really drives us to make an impact. And he's made it incredibly easy through charitable impact. So he's got an illustrious career, he started off in corporate finance. So I can't relate to you at all, my friend was about to say, I can't wait to hear that winding path, but really kind of started to work with his dad, who was one of the foremost experts in charity law. So I mean, finance and law, you are so over our heads already, my friend. But what you've done is made this really accessible platform. And that's what we'd like to talk about today kind of the story of charitable impact, and how it's revolutionized, you know, specifically for Canadian philanthropy, but I think there's so much that we can learn here in the states too.
• 1:34
  Jonathan McCoy: And so love your ethos, and can't wait to hear your story.
• 1:38
  Jonathan McCoy: Thanks for being here.
• 1:40
  John Bromley: Thanks so much for having me and a little bit of Canada today. So we're, we're always happy to be talking with our friends down south.
• 1:47
  Becky Endicott: Oh, my gosh, we love Canadians.
• 1:49
  Jonathan McCoy: We were just kind of emoting about that. So you know, I gave a really brief intro to your story, would you kind of fill in the dots of what led you to this place today? How charitable impact came to be?
• 1:59
  John Bromley: Well, I grew up in a family that valued giving. So you know, it starts it starts there. And, and I remember, you know, a few times my parents sort of giving me money to give away and it was my first experience with it, when I found interesting about it was they weren't sort of trying to teach me the the you know, how to make complicated decisions and who to give to they were literally just working on, here's the $5 bill, you go put it in the basket, you go give it to that person, you know, and so is because you know, as a kid, you kind of go Wow, imagine how much candy I can pie with? Yes, no, especially back in the day pre inflation, little finance. Okay, so I remember, really, family values, I think is the really the beginning of my story. That then I went to university, I studied corporate finance, you know, the weird part about that was never good at math. What I did start to understand as I got mature, was that I was good at understanding systems, even though I wasn't always good at getting the answer, right. That played into my my life later, as I accidentally got into the world of charity. Now what I mean by accidentally is my dad, is he's just recently retired, actually, but my dad is the, you know, one of the two pioneers of charity law, and sort of, you know, gift planning, as we might call it, in Canada, you know, way back in the day, no one specialized in this stuff. And he was one of the pioneers who really said it crazily like I'm going to I'm going to do this.
• 3:30
  John Bromley: So after I left corporate finance, which was more of a cultural decision, you know, for me, and what I want to do with my life, didn't align culturally, but I loved the learning. And I liked the people. I started just happenstance going into, you know, a few projects with with with with my dad. And I was like, Wow, this charity stuff is like, I thought it was all kind of like, just a nice thing to do. And it is, by the way, but it's actually this like, whole world unto itself. It's an entire sector. It's an entire mini economy. It has to do with hearts, it has to do with mines has to do with wallet, it has to do in safety with using different words time, talent and treasure, which is effectively, you know, us as human beings.
• 4:15
  John Bromley: And so I started to get really interested and what was lucky was that I had this kind of Canadian reference, Wayne Gretzky as my mentor. Like I had the I had the one of the relatively very few people who was substantively fluent and innovative, you know, sort of, you know, so what I did for my first couple years and was a culture shock, leaving the bank where I thought I was a hotshot was just sitting in my dad's pocket, you know, basically saying nothing for three or four, maybe up to five years just sitting in meetings and absorbing and absorbing and absorbing. That's where I started. Then I moved to if you want to meet with Blake, his name's Blake, you got to meet with me first. That's where I started to really develop my own ability to interface with people and solve complex problems. I also learned how to not answer questions I don't know the answer to because I could always go to the big guy. So, you know, from there, I started to get really fluent in philanthropy, and that's the blessing and sort of curse of my life. Why is it a curse, because it really makes me feel obligated to share what I know and do things in the sector. So when people say, Oh, tell you what a great entrepreneurial story, I don't really feel I'm an entrepreneur by sort of business nature, I feel like I'm entrepreneur based on almost an obligation and on a vocational level. So So why did we start charitable and PAC in short, because it was just crazy to me that people had to come and sit down with us and pay us money, to get access to information that was, should have been available to everyone.
• 5:49
  John Bromley: And number one, so no accessibility to objective, impartial giving advice, it just wasn't scalable at all. And we were arguably part of the problem. The second piece was there was nowhere to carry out your giving, other than sending someone directly to what we would recall as a charitable organization in Canada or an activity based, you know, charity, and, you know, and so, so what we did was we kind of said, Oh, well, then those two things kind of go together, right? You build the charitable bank, you know, which we call the sector, a donor advised fund, then we can layer on the ability to give people advice. And because I'm I'm 43 now so because I'm sort of have this like non internet growing up but internet adult kind of kind of Steve's saying, you know, it, was it, yeah, what's up? Yeah, it was clear that we had to use the web and technology. And that brings scale to. So when we started immediately, it was about the donor advised fund as the solution. It's called that the quote bank, it was about layering on the need to give impartial advice and to help educate donors and objective way. And it was about using technology to make that scalable, so that it could be accessible to everybody.
• 7:02
  Jonathan McCoy: Fascinating. And I know there's so much I want to jump off that. But I want to begin because we you know, we love our families. And we just feel like how you're investing in your kids, what you're teaching your kids, it is such a thread in so many people's story, and I can't miss out on yours, the power of your dad, the power of mentorship, whether you are his son or not of him taking you under his wing, like that is incredible. And something all of us can do and invest in other people. And I love that aspect of your story.
• 7:29
  Jonathan McCoy: So much
• 7:30
  Becky Endicott: we have one brain because I was literally about to say something so similar, which just the the thread of of empowerment of your dad giving you a $5 bill and making it your decision and allowing you to be the one that transacted that, and the for you to get to know what it feels like to put that in and to watch somebody react to the gift that in alone of itself is something I see that you are still chasing, you know, in your career. The second part is something that we have just continued to unpack in this podcast, which is one of the greatest weaknesses of our sector is the inability to sit and listen, you sat and listened for three to five years, that is a, we talked about the long game a lot that's been but what that did, and how that gave you creative reach, and innovation and ability to leverage tech in new ways. And taking your knowledge and being able to diversify it in this very unique way, is actually something that I'm thinking you are a born entrepreneur, because you're just wired to think differently.
• 8:38
  Becky Endicott: So I kind of want to like transition a little bit to the current state of giving, because you have this really powerful TED talk. And I think it was TEDx Vancouver, which is a really impressive TEDx experience. And we want you to kind of set the scene for us about the current state of giving, you mentioned donor fatigue and your TED Talk. And, you know, even through the lens of pandemic tell us what you think the current state of giving is right now?
• 9:39
  John Bromley: Well, my concern which I think fatigue is related to and let's talk about what fatigue is, first of all, mean fatigue, right means to be sort of tired, I think it's experienced or, you know, in the form of, of the fears that it's experienced in the form of annoyance, right. And, and that's one avenue goes, I think the other place that goes is this, this fatigue from not sure not being sure as a donor, whether you're you know, creating any change in the world where you're whether you're your contributions are being meaningful, both of those two things are, are difficult experiences for for human beings. And I think they're dangerous for philanthropy. So that's what fatigue is in my mind. And it can happen a whole bunch of different ways. My my thinking on fatigue has actually evolved since I gave the TED talk at the time of the TED talk. I was really focused on and I still think this is true, but on how the over solicitation or too many asks fatigues us i I think that's true. Okay. But I also think that was a little bit, you know, younger John talking, I've evolved to the place where instead of just blaming the sector and the fundraisers, and I love fundraising, and I've done a lot of it. And so I'm a big fan of fundraisers, absolutely necessary part of the sector, but instead of kind of going, Oh, gee, it's like, we're fundraising too much. You know, what I think the problem is, it's that the donor isn't fit, the donor doesn't have the experience to deal with all these asks, and just kind of go, it's just another email delete, or it's just another phone call that I can choose to or not answer, right. And so we get this sort of, you know, fatigue element on the annoyance side, that someone who's more literate and fluent just kind of goes like, it's like commercials on TV, they kind of annoy us, but they don't stop us from, from watching. And then And then also, you know, experiences important to understanding, you know, the impact side of giving, right, like, you know, you know, I mean, as a former athlete, like, it's not like you play good every game, it's not like you play well, every game. So you know, and then you can have ups and downs during during the match. And the and being the athlete over time is really about being able to deal with those things and stay in the game. So when we're not as fit as donors, I actually worry about donor fatigue, because it can push us away from the sector, blaming someone else and where I'm trying to get to, this is bad language, but blaming the self blaming the donor, or, and because it's not really the donors fault. Now I'm sort of in the world of looking at where do people go to learn about giving?
• 12:07
  John Bromley: Where does the fitness from giving come from, and unfortunately, in Canada, and based on my experience, it's better in the US, but not it's still, you know, bit problematic. It's just not there. And so fatigue is dangerous, not because charities are doing bad stuff, because there's not enough charitable literacy with the donor to be able to withstand these small little headwinds at times, which can lead to some fatigue, but it's actually just part of the game.
• 12:36
  Jonathan McCoy: I think what you bring up is something that we completely align with, you know, what, that's actually our vision for the company has nothing to do with the podcast, it's about an impact uprising, because we believe the act of philanthropy is not just transformational for the person that receives the impact, but it's the giver that and what that does to them as well. And we believe that is what's going to change the world as more people lean into it. And so it's gonna take a lot of us.
• 13:00
  Jonathan McCoy: And I think what you're pointing to is that you can't, how do we instill the thought that it's not someone else's going to solve this? But how do you play an active role and engage deeply in the things that really matter to you? And how do we perpetuate that? And so I really am drinking the Kool Aid of what you're talking about.
• 13:16
  Becky Endicott: And it's about how do you democratize that process? How do you allow yourself to innovate in a way I love that we're talking about donor fatigue, because as we're in the pandemic, and so many of us have had to pivot into their virtual events or hybrid events, weirdos that are saying, thank goodness, you don't have an in person gala anymore, can we never go back, we don't want to do that anymore. Or we're hearing from corporations say, I really don't want to sponsor your Gala. That's not how I want to affect your mission, I would actually like to have a conversation about what your big dreams are and how we can partner together and how we can bring more than just resources to the table we can bring our employees, we can bring our brand and it's a much bigger conversation, then how we just to your point, you know, drill down solicitation after solicitation. So this is a great conversation.
• 14:08
  John Bromley: You know what my view is, and people don't have to agree with me that the donor advised fund is the solution to this problem is one solution and education is another but let me say why I think donor advised funds are the solution is because inviting people to participate in philanthropy has to in my experience, be routed to some input to be sustainable over time with the individual has to be rooted in them has to be driven over time intrinsically. And so the ability to invite people into a conversation about giving where they're totally in charge of the cause, and the charities they give to when why how, okay, ultimately, that's what's important about the donor advised fund, right? Because now we can have a conversation with all our employees at work and not say, Hey, what is it everyone, you know, support this charity that I don't know, the CEO chose or something like that. Right? You know, so so so so I really think donor advised funds, they have their whole thing and oh, gee, is it hoarding money? And look, those are important conversations. I'm happy to go there. I've got thoughts there. But what I really think is important is it's tooling up the donor. And one of the things i This isn't trying to be tricky, but it's about being strategic like if you have a donor advised fund, and it's a tool for you and it makes giving easy for you. And it manages all your giving takes all the hard stuff about giving other than the decisions and how much money you're going to give away and where you're going to give it that stuff never gets taken away. That stuff's very difficult, but everything else about managing giving gets taken away within reason. It makes it way easier. So. So, you know, why wouldn't you give in that scenario? Okay, and here's the only answer I can come up with.
• 15:45
  John Bromley: Because you're not charitable.
• 15:45
  John Bromley: Wow. So and look no judgment, right. So if you're not charitable, totally, just don't don't give, you don't need a donor advised fund. But if you are charitable, the donor advised fund can take away so many objections that are rooted in the donor, whether it's too much rotation or this or that.
• 16:02
  John Bromley: And it's just like, you know, so what I like about that as the strategy of putting the donor in this place where really they're just able to ask themselves one really big important question, whether it's phrased this way or not, am I charitable? If the answer's no, fine, thanks. You know, see that's have a beer, see you later, if it's go nuts.
• 16:25
  Jonathan McCoy: So I want to go back to donor advised fund deeper here in a minute. But something we've seen you really speak into that, I think, is a great parlay from what we just talked about is this idea of giving proactively versus reactively. I know you have a lot of opinions on this, but you kind of speak into that and kind of cast the net for us to understand what you're meaning.
• 16:43
  John Bromley: Well, reactive giving, generally trying to be cool about a reactive giving would be you know, driven by something external to you, right? So it's like someone asks you to do something and you consider it you react to it, and you say yes or no, that's an important part of the sector, fundraising drives a lot of that, I hope the future that that is really more about discovery, discovering things that are going on, that you then take back into yourself or into your own corner or your home or, you know, wherever you're safe places, and just stop and think about it. So so that's how I'd like people to deal with fundraising ultimately, okay.
• 17:22
  John Bromley: And proactive just means sort of taking ownership over it. You know, so So let's go back to my question. Are you charitable?
• 17:27
  John Bromley: Hey, Johnny, terrible, yeah, yeah, I'm charitable. You know, so they actually do something about it. Yeah, I actually do actually give my my, my my time and, and my talent and my treasure. And here's, here's how I do it. So I choose to do it.
• 17:41
  John Bromley: And I think that's what being proactive is about. And so it's like making it a part of your life in some little or big part.
• 17:47
  John Bromley: And just going about it in your own way. Now, along the route of proactivity, you can and will have to react to all sorts of stimulus. But so what where I think productivity is important is we want donors to be rooted in proactive Ness, and then deal with reactiveness. Now, we could talk about this same thing with about fitness or about healthy eating or anything, right? I mean, we want you to be proactive, you know, in terms of taking it, you know, taking care of your health, you know, but that doesn't mean you can't react to different stimulus and commercials and opportunities along the way.
• 18:22
  Jonathan McCoy: I think it's brilliant, because the intentionality of it is laser focus on what we need to be at.
• 18:28
  Jonathan McCoy: And we talk a lot about values being rooted in values. And if that is paired with proactive giving plan and knowing what you want to really deeply invest in, like the clarity that comes from that you just think of what kind of impact would happen if everybody leaned into that. It's a powerful notion and what would lead to tremendous impact. So very, very cool
• 18:47
  Becky Endicott: and proactive giving to me, it begs us to have intentionality, you have to have some forward thinking vision there. So I want to continue this thread it through the lens of the donor advised fund. And we have a lot of young professionals who listen to this podcast, and a lot of people who are new to nonprofit that are coming over since the Great resignation that are coming in trying to find purpose now. And so they're listening to the podcast. And I wonder if you could just break it down kindergarten style, and tell us about what a donor advised fund is, for those who may not be familiar, and how these can be leveraged as a really powerful tool for donors.
• 19:25
  John Bromley: Sure, thanks for the opportunity. I mean, I think that if people are familiar with what a bank account is, I would I would say, donor advised fund is exactly analogous to having a bank account but just for charitable giving, right? And so what does a bank account fundamentally do? It allows you to separate your sort of intention to sort of, you know, save money from how you're going to spend it? Okay? And so that's what's super important about the donor advised fund, whether you're a large donor or a small donor, it doesn't matter. It's allows you to kind of separate the two decisions that are part of every single charitable gift, which is the first is am I going to give my money away? How much when, what type of asset Okay, from the second decision, which is what cause what charity or charities, right, or newer school versions of that inside the donor advised fund where maybe you say I'm going to give it to this other person for them to give it away. Okay, but the point is, that donor advised fund allows the separation of the two component parts of every charitable decision which is donation From the allocation, so whether that's a simple explanation or not, that's the purpose. And when people say to me, well, what's the value proposition of the donor advised fund? It's the separation. And from that separation, all sorts of major benefits, you know, come about,
• 20:51
  Becky Endicott: and there's such growth in donor advised funds right now. I mean, I think, what do we read, like last year? I mean, it was like $27 billion, you know, either sitting or given away in Daffs. Right now, and it this is money that has been committed, that is just sitting and I, I honestly, I think you're challenging me a little bit, John, because I was always looking at it through the lens of how do I go after those funds for my organization? How do I procure them, but I've never really thought about it as a tool for my family. That's a very intentional way that we're giving. And so I wonder if you could just kind of see, talk to us about how you're seeing Daffs, like transform the sector right now, specifically, from your vantage point. And within your, your company, or throughout the sector?
• 21:40
  John Bromley: Well, one of the things I love about going down to the United States is that, you know, you kind of say, well, you were living John, oh, I work in the charity sector. Oh, what do you do there? Oh, I work with a donor advised fund. And they go, Oh, cool. In Canada, if you you say that, like, oh, I work for a donor Rosa, and they go see me right now. But it's just like, a blank face, like what the heck anyway, is that are so you know, no one knows that a donor advised fund is. And and that's a that's a barrier. So you know, where I think their you know, the growth of donor advised fund is coming from which is, which is fine, but, you know, is is, is in this realm where it sort of competes with the private foundation, it's the sort of administrative and cost benefit of not having to create your own entity.
• 22:22
  John Bromley: That's the sort of, I think we're getting to the end stage of that, and where you're going to see the growth is, is where any person who says yes to the answer, are you charitable? is it's going to move to Okay, so what's the tool for me? And the donor advised fund is going to be the answer. So so what I think we're gonna see the disruption is going to come from the empowerment of donors. And now this isn't meant to take away from the the sort of power of the fundraising lobby, necessarily okay. But I think that's a secondary disruption.
• 22:56
  John Bromley: So there's, that's a path we can go down if you're interested.
• 22:59
  John Bromley: But what I'm more interested in is the empowerment of the donor.
• 23:01
  John Bromley: And why is that important?
• 23:05
  John Bromley: Because I mean, just to use Canadian data, although I'm seeing similar stuff about the United States, you know, less people in Canada give today than they did 10 years ago, really, of those people who give they give less of their income away.
• 23:18
  John Bromley: Notwithstanding the fact that over that same period of time, charities are spending much more on fundraising. Yeah. Okay. So that's led me to occlusion by the way a little off donor advised funds for a sec, but that fundraising, helps charities raise money, especially the charities that are good at it. But does fundraising develop the donor?
• 23:39
  John Bromley: Does it really educate and nurture the donor? And my answer to that for now, without wanting to be controversial is no, in fact, fundraising was never developed for that it was developed to get money from the donor to the charity. And so where's the donor development coming from? The donor advised fund tool can do that, in part because it's for all donors, regardless of what chart causes you care about. And secondly, because it is at least in its natural place, it's it's an impartial, objective environment, not unlike your bank, my bank doesn't tell me whether to shop at store A or B, they facilitate me to do so.
• 24:20
  Becky Endicott: Taking a quick pause from today's episode to thank our sponsor, who happens to be one of our favorite companies to neon, one, neon one provide software solutions to growing nonprofits, but they really do so much more than that. They're also incredibly passionate about creating community in the social goods sector. We believe in the power of community. We've seen the greatest philanthropic movements happen when people work together to achieve common goals. Neon wine can help you do just that.
• 24:44
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• 25:11
  Jonathan McCoy: I mean, I think you're expanding my mind about this. I spent my entire career in philanthropy and I really thought that Daffs were reserved for major gift donors. That's the only people engaging in that. It's got a reputation and not a reputation like a publicity crisis on its hand.
• 25:26
  Jonathan McCoy: It's like it's not seen as an accessible vehicle for everybody to tap into and the benefits. I wonder if you'd roll out you know, we have a list Underbase around the world, but there's predominantly US and Canada.
• 25:35
  Jonathan McCoy: Could you kind of break down?
• 25:37
  Jonathan McCoy: What are the features that are really beneficial for the donor?
• 25:41
  Jonathan McCoy: You know, is it tax incentives or other pieces that you can kind of throw at us flexibility
• 25:46
  Becky Endicott: of giving any of it? Yeah.
• 25:48
  John Bromley: So that, you know, tax benefits are the same for everyone. Right? So then you get a tax benefit whenever you send money to a charity voluntarily, right. So it's not that it's that it's that you get the tax break. Now, that's more something that relates to the high net worth donor, right.
• 26:05
  John Bromley: Even though in theory, it cascades down this whole, I think it's really about, you know, a tool that helps me manage and understand my giving.
• 26:10
  John Bromley: And it's about me. So that's why it's important to everyone.
• 26:15
  John Bromley: Right, and I've got some anecdotes on this I can share, including how I'm using the donor advised fund with my own kids to develop them as donors.
• 26:26
  Jonathan McCoy: I will say too, because I do think this has beneficial if you just want to get into this rhythm of giving, like out of your paycheck, but you don't know exactly what you want to spend it on. This gives you a place to put that that is separate, that's protected that you do get the tax benefit right away. Right. I understand that right.
• 26:42
  John Bromley: Well, now you're now you're answering the your question for me, which is wonderful. No, but exactly right. So like, hey, like, Hey, are you charitable? Yeah. You know, you know, we're, you know, where do you give or not? I'm not really sure. Well, how are you being charitable right now?
• 26:57
  John Bromley: Oh, well, I'm not I guess I'm, what saving them i Oh, it gets all confusing. Like with the donor advice. I'm just, you know, how much are you willing to give away, I think I can afford 100 bucks a month. Great.
• 27:04
  John Bromley: Throw it in recurring donation into your donor advice on 100 bucks a month, 100 bucks a month, you are being charitable.
• 27:11
  John Bromley: Now, as that money's piling up, take the time and space to go and think about where you want to send that money. How you do that's up to you, you know, talk to your friends, do your own research, you know, online, you know, throw darts at a board. I mean, within reason, I don't really care how you do it, just thanks for playing the game. So without getting to all the benefits, because you know what, from the separation by the way, let me just give you some examples of benefits just to be doing so far answer the question, okay. So when you separate, I'll give you an example of one benefit that you don't have to put into play, but you're empowered to as a donor.
• 27:45
  John Bromley: So as soon as you make the donation that donor advice on that's the legal donation to charity, right, you get a tax receipt, you've now got this money in the account, and you can send it out to any charity, you choose who at law, okay, let's go back to the law for a second is sending the gift that the donor advised fund is sending the gift to the charity informed on the recommendation of the donor. So one benefit of a donor advised fund and there were many, and this is this is this is a derivative of, of the separation of the donation from the allocation is for example, you can be completely anonymous.
• 28:15
  John Bromley: When giving to a charity, when you try to understand why it's because of the donor advised fund because the gift is made first and the allocation is made. Second, there's no other way to be anonymous when giving to a registered charity, other than dropping cash in a box and walking away, you know, with a paper bag over your head. So So you know, with a one small example of a liberal benefit.
• 28:40
  John Bromley: Okay, that's one. But let me let me give you a second one that so that's a really intuitive one, let me give you a second one. So when you separate the donation fee allocation, I now have money in my account. And charitable, in fact, is a web based donor advised fund. So it's got technology, you know, as a result, it takes about five to 10 seconds to a minute to set up a donor advised fund, okay, which might seem weird, but is should we it should be. And so now I've got this money in my account, of course, I can send it to any charity of my choice.
• 29:09
  John Bromley: I can also send it to these areas where people can crowd fun together and pool money and do things. But I can also send money to someone else's account.
• 29:15
  John Bromley: So hey, thanks for the podcast.
• 29:20
  John Bromley: Here's the money for you to give away. Hey, thanks. Sorry for being late. You know, thanks for buying dinner last night. Okay, but But let me start tell you about just going back to my kids. So I've got an eight and a 10 year old. You know, if I'm on a podcast about charity, I better raise charitable kids, otherwise, I'm really screwed. I put money in because you know, I'm the taxpayer, I need the tax receipt. And then I send a $10 charitable allowance to both of my kids every month recurring.
• 29:46
  John Bromley: So the donor advised fund facilitates that. Because it gives it takes charitable dollars and it turns it into a currency that I can use inside this donor advised fund world to the benefit of the growth and development of donors until someone in that system recommends it to leave the system to go to the end using charity or 501 C three, and then the money's gone and is used for charitable activities. So we can go well the hoarding and the badness, fine, good, important, important, okay. But what you lose on that, if you rush to that conclusion is you lose all the beauty that can happen in a space where humans are using charitable currency. as a form of communication, discussion, social networking, and empowerment, and that's the future that donor advised fund.
• 30:45
  Becky Endicott: I'm going to need a hot minute here.
• 30:47
  Jonathan McCoy: This is your new TED talk, right? I'm hoping you're going back to TEDx and dropping this kind of knowledge bomb. This is amazing. I
• 30:54
  Becky Endicott: mean, you just took the DAF that, honestly, I have looked at my whole life as a soft credit. I mean, honestly, I think about it in terms of a foundation of, okay, the hard credit is going to, you know, this or this little Community Foundation, and we're going to be the soft credit to the donor, but I don't really know the donor, I don't really have access to the donor, you know, unless they want me to have access to them. So we're just going to soft credit it but the fact that you have innovated it to the point where this could be a tool, not only for how you build little philanthropist, and when I say philanthropist, I mean so much in that kids who are empathetic kids who see need in the world and rise and understand that it's part of their core to give you brought in crowdfunding, and the way that you that you're giving and community with a DAF is so evolved, and so next level, and now John is texting us and saying we're forgetting me to death, like immediately. So
• 31:55
  Jonathan McCoy: I need to do this publicly show you how easy it is to do. Let's do
• 31:58
  John Bromley: it take the total impact was in the US and we're not yet I would, you know, get on my get on my app and just, you know, send each you know, 20 bucks, you know, to stimulate the opening of the death, etc.
• 32:08
  John Bromley: Let's just address hoarding for a sec, I've got a slightly different lens on on the hoarding issue that I think is that is missing from the conversation, Jen actualizes.
• 32:21
  Becky Endicott: In terms of Daffs
• 32:23
  John Bromley: hoarding happens with donor advised funds and private foundations. And it's a it's a, it's it happens because it's incentivize people to make the donation today, take the tax receipt today. And then because of how the rules work in both Canada and the United States, you don't have to flush all that out to operating charities.
• 32:43
  John Bromley: Okay. So what's the downside of that hoarding? And we're going to come back to that, what's the upside of that, by the way, it commits the dollars to charity.
• 32:54
  John Bromley: So those dollars are committed and they can't be taken back. So don't complain too much about it, right? Because we would rather not those donors completely disappear. Unless you want to get into a serious philosophical discussion about, you know, tax policy and monetary systems and all that.
• 33:07
  John Bromley: We don't wait for finance to find out. Why do you hoard?
• 33:15
  John Bromley: Where does hoarding come from?
• 33:15
  John Bromley: Okay. And I've, I've advised a lot of private foundations, and I, and I've found it and run a donor advised fund, okay, so I've got a relatively decent amount of experience, or when does hoarding happen when the donor isn't engaged, full stop, within reason, okay, outside of the margins, when the donor is not engaged. And so they they make the decision to have the donation, they take the taxes and they go off, you're like, Oh, my financial planning is done. And now oftentimes, this only happens in the high net worth world, generally speaking, because now these guys are like, kind of going, you know, Jeff Bezos, he's got stuff to do.
• 33:50
  John Bromley: Right? It always so it's like, wow, I'm like, I'm flying to the moon. I'm not thinking about my philanthropy now, pro or con, great, fun conversation. But what's happening? And you know, Jeff Bezos, probably a really great guy, but he's just not engaged. Yeah, with his philanthropy. As soon as he gets engaged, he goes, Oh, my goodness. So where am I going to get the money to pay for that?
• 34:10
  John Bromley: Ah, in my donor advised fund, and slowly but surely your disbursement quota, you know, starts to fade away into the into the world we've never imposed. We've never had to impose disbursement quota in charitable impact, because we don't have any policies that say you have to hold money, nor that you have to, you know, there are some policies that we've never had to impose it so you have to keep giving it away. People give it away because they're generally speaking in gauged with that currency that they know is for giving away to charities to spend on charitable activities. So hoarding comes from disengagement. So when you educate, empower the donor disengagement starts to go away.
• 34:54
  Jonathan McCoy: Yeah, I mean, I think it points to that it's a vehicle. So it's still it's still about building relationships, still about people connecting with people through all the other things.
• 35:01
  Jonathan McCoy: It's just a way that people give, and it's a resource to some people that have it. Okay, it's not lost on me. I want to hear about charitable impact real quick, because the $5 part of your story just stuck out.
• 35:17
  Becky Endicott: That's exactly what I was. Yeah,
• 35:18
  Jonathan McCoy: I'm like, you know, as a kid, you know, you're threatening to get that $5. I'd go to your website today, which is so simple. You can start with a gift of literally $5 to open up this account. It's not lost on me. I don't know if that was intentional or not, but it was a cool way to that invites everybody into this story. So would you kind of break down what to offer? And how does somebody get started besides bringing five bucks?
• 35:41
  John Bromley: Well darn straight. It was intentional.
• 35:43
  John Bromley: Yeah. Right, you know, and fundamentally, is because the motivation that I'm bringing to the table isn't driven by one of the major business metrics and ways to monetize a donor advised fund, which has assets under management, which leads us back to hoarding. So Donor Advised when institutions are as responsible for hoarding, as the donors are, okay, and we won't go down that path, because we've only got so much time, but it's important for the policy, you know, folks behind the donor advised fund to recognize that the way they develop and curate their system, and their donors will result in their Okay, engagement or not. So, why the$5 minimum? You know, and actually, the reality is, you don't actually even have to put money in your account in order to start a donor advised fund with charitable impact. You know, so, by way of example, you know, my kids have that donor advised fund, you know, and then you know, they've never donated into it themselves, they don't have a credit card, they don't even have money, really, you know, but I put the money in, and then I send it to them. So but the $5 million minimum is, is is really about accessibility. Okay. But here's what it's really about one of my goals that I don't know how I'm going to achieve, but I know some things I'm going to do along the way, is, is based on this hypothesis that we can increase engagement, charitable giving, if we remove the objections to charitable giving, okay, like sales objections, right. So this is sort of business lingo here. I apologize for that. But so so what's it?
• 37:15
  John Bromley: What's an objection? Well, an objection in Canada, for example, and I know you have this United States to but to a donor advised fund, it's like, well, I don't have a $10,000 mount of money to give away, right? So I can't start a donor advised fund. Right. So So and then it's like, and then then Well, what charities do gives you Oh, well, I don't know yet.
• 37:33
  John Bromley: No, they don't have these. I don't know how I don't know this, I'll get to it later.
• 37:35
  John Bromley: Okay, so it's like no, like, hey, just put your money in this donor advised fund over here that doesn't have that minimum.
• 37:40
  John Bromley: So it's about it invites accessibility but the theory of it is rooted in taking objections away from the donor.
• 37:46
  John Bromley: It's also why and we have to be creative with our business with our business plan. It's also why we don't charge our core donor advised fund which is like a savings account for like a savings bank account. You know, we don't charge money on it. You know, we just recover the cost that you have you use your credit card, right? You cost us these merchant fees, so we recover those but we don't charge you money and the the wire that is so dumb business decision, but the why on that is because we do not want people to choose no to charity, because for example, there's a transaction fee. Are you charitable? Yeah, I'm charitable. Do you get money way? No. How come? Because the transaction fees dang transaction fees, okay, what a crappy you know, reason not to be charitable. Right? So really the ethos and terrible impact it translates and accessibility, but that's the result. It's, it's, it's, it's really rooted in this pathway of taking as many barriers to giving away as possible so that you're left only with your mirror and yourself the question of am I charitable,
• 38:59
  Becky Endicott: it's so interesting, this conversation is so interesting. And when you have someone that can come in and create a company, within what I would call a pain point, you know, uh, you know, you've taken all the objections, all the excuses, all of the reasons that we would not do this, you've eliminated them. And all it is, is a clear path to doing more good in a way that works for you as a human being. So I just think that the thing I love about your company, John is it is just so pure, and it's steeped in just making philanthropy as accessible as possible. And we know that if when we do that, we are healthier human beings, we give and create healthier communities, you know, wherever we are in the world. And that democratization is the thing that can really lift like all boats. It's so exciting.
• 39:56
  John Bromley: I love you guys.
• 39:56
  John Bromley: So why why do we want to take the objections away? Okay, like one of the things I've learned as I get older, just keep it simple, right? Keep it simple, silly. So if you take the objections away, why because my bed is a ri our hypothesis is that when you ask yourself, are you charitable? The answer is more likely than not to be yes.
• 40:13
  John Bromley: Why? Because you're generous.
• 40:13
  John Bromley: Okay? I'm not using the word altruistic on person on purpose.
• 40:17
  John Bromley: You're generous. We are generous people. Let me share the three beliefs at charitable impact with you guys. The first belief is that everyone in the world has something they care about changing. The second belief is that everyone has something to give towards creating that change. Whether It's time, talent or treasure. Okay, so these are the two precursors to the third belief, which is when you give, you get something in return. And when you think about those moments in your life where you did something for someone else, and you feel, or you know, or you're this or you're that that's what you get in return, and that is so difficult to put into words, but it is so powerful. And it's something we all experience. Good people experience it, quote, bad people experience it nice people experience it mean people experience it. It's something that's just part of the human experience. And so our hypothesis is that you're going to ultimately say, Yes, I am charitable. And so then just no more objections. You know, once you've gotten there, make it simple as heck
• 41:24
  Jonathan McCoy: could I love your three years more changing the world?
• 41:28
  Becky Endicott: I love, you're changing mindsets. You're changing, thinking. Everyone has something to give. And I feel like we've said that before, but not threaded it through this ethos. It's really so brilliant.
• 41:39
  Becky Endicott: I just love it. I would love to hear a story from you a story of philanthropy that has changed you whether it's been through your own personal giving, or something that you've been able to witness in the company, like what would your story be? John,
• 41:54
  John Bromley: I'm going to tell you my first, my first memory of giving, and how my mom ultimately nurtured it into partly making I think who I am today, we used to get an allowance as kids. And it's actually where a lot of my financial literacy comes from, right, you know, the ability to understand money. And once you've spent it, you can't kind of get it back. Okay, opportunity cost. So we had, we got this allowance, okay. And I've got two sisters love them both one older, one younger, and one of my sisters lost her money. And for whatever reason, it kind of impacted me for a minute, right? Because you love to fight with your sisters and stuff like that. And it impacted me for a minute. And I went and I went up to my mom quietly, and I said, give my sister my money.
• 42:40
  John Bromley: And I just had this like, and I can still remember it today. I just like, I felt like the best person in the world. I felt so empowered, I felt in that moment of giving that I could do almost anything. And I was like, yeah, right, six or seven. And so that moment stuck with me. And it taught me the power of giving.
• 43:01
  John Bromley: And here's the here's the part, I think we need to start talking about more, but very carefully.
• 43:04
  John Bromley: It was it was almost a selfish thing, right? By doing this selfless act of giving my money that I could have spent on licorice at the store to my sister who lost it, it was almost better for me. So that's the selfishness of giving. And like, that's crazy. And that's when you get why you when you give you get something room shirt. And as re really start to channel and understand that.
• 43:34
  John Bromley: It's not about getting away from charity and giving money and giving back is good. It's about recognizing that it's a part of who we are as human beings. And it makes us better. While it also makes the communities around us better. And that story has really, really stuck with me. And because it happened at such a young age, it really, really sort of empowered my ability to make a lot of mistakes with good intention behind the giving that I was doing. And all of those mistakes are really just experience, which leads me to the place today where now like my location is effectively trying to get people to get more engaged with giving and it's credibly difficult, but it's really rewarding. And it's really fun.
• 44:27
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, friends, how many times for people that listen to the podcast, to the stories go back to our first memory of giving? Like, yes, it's part of our DNA, I agree with you that it speaks to just our humanity, too. I think there's something we're wired to want to give. And I think when we do that, especially at a young age, it just makes such an imprint on us. We're similar in those things, too. But something you said that I want to lift is that we feel like we you know, we grew up in nonprofits basically. But there's so much this posture of that we don't have anything to offer we're trying to give people to give.
• 44:57
  Jonathan McCoy: And don't miss that mark like nonprofits we get to actually give something that money can't buy, like only giving can give to the donor. And we do have that to offer which is completely categorically different. And so we should, we should feel boosted knowing that that's part of it.
• 45:17
  Becky Endicott: And I just love the stories even as he was telling that story, which was so beautiful. By the way. I am thinking back to so many of our guests, you know, we're almost 200 episodes in and so many of them talk about a story of impact when they were A child that set the course for the rest of their lives. And I love that.
• 45:37
  Becky Endicott: And I and I also want to even challenge the fact that you said this is selfish. I think it's beautifully selfish. And I would even continue it and say, there's even more selfishness that can come into this a feeling good. When I asked you, what was your sister's response?
• 45:58
  Becky Endicott: When she found out that you did that for her?
• 46:02
  John Bromley: One of the requests actually to continue the story with you know, was that my mom not tell her where it came from? That, you know, she she just sort of say, Oh, you lost your money. Here's five more bucks Hey, my first lesson on anonymity and like charitable impact every time you allocate money out to a qualified Dhoni, but a registered charity, you know, you can kind of tick the box. So gift by gift do you want to share your information with this charity or not? On this instance, with my, my mom and my sister, I checked the notion I did check the notional box and said, you know, no information sharing, in all fairness, you know, I'm sure and I can't remember this, but I'm sure I like hid behind the wall. Or, like, experience of what she did when she got the money or whatever. But we're
• 46:55
  Becky Endicott: gonna be sending this episode to your sister, today is the day the reckoning where she's gonna find out
• 47:00
  Jonathan McCoy: and I mean, it's gonna be so proud. I mean, to just see how this legacy is just getting perpetuated. It's a great story. So incredible.
• 47:06
  Jonathan McCoy: Okay, John, we have one more question all of our podcasts lead with, you know, what is one good thing we've talked about a lot of great deep topics today, too. If you could do something, if somebody could do something today, what's a good habit? A piece of advice, something that you can leave with our community today? The one good thing?
• 47:27
  John Bromley: I mean, how about ask yourself, do it a few times, just ask yourself, whether or not you're charitable. That's what I want people to do. And to be okay with themselves when the answer's no, because it can change. And by the way, if the answer is yes, that can change too. So are you charitable? i, where i want to go with this type of answer is just getting away from like, Oh, why do you give to a charity or not? And just start talking about why you give or not? Right? So not which charity and why and are they good and wasn't impactful? But what do you give it? Do you have intention in your life? To spend time talent and treasure disparate components of your time on giving? And if the answer is yes, thank you. And then we can get into conversation about, you know, well, how does that look today?
• 48:17
  John Bromley: What might you try to change to be it bring a bit more intention to your giving. But it all starts with that core question of, Am I charitable? Or do I choose to be charitable? That's what I'd like us to reflect on?
• 48:34
  Becky Endicott: Very much on brand. That was an excellent one good thing. And I think it's a good question that even those of us who I think, would just knee jerk and say, Well, of course I am. It's a challenge to kind of dig and do some of the self work and say, Where's the why? And why. Here's,
• 48:53
  John Bromley: here's what I like about the question. Hey, are you charitable? Yes. Okay, well, then tell me what you do. Oh, don't you volunteer? No. Do you give money away? No, it is this?
• 49:02
  John Bromley: No. Okay. So back to question a right. Are you charitable?
• 49:06
  John Bromley: Because if you are charitable, and you do nothing, I think I think there's some, there's some quandaries there. So so that's why I like the question is not just this intention. It's not do I intend to be charitable, it's, am I charitable? Like, do I do anything charitable? Right?
• 49:18
  John Bromley: Because if you are charitable, then you have to do things that are charitable, at least in my book. So so so just to just to hop in sorry about that. That's where that's where I really liked the question. Because if it's yes, there has to be a follow on. If it's no, then it's just like, great, you know, you're buying beer.
• 49:37
  Becky Endicott: And and I can't help it, I can't help it when somebody says, No, I want the question to be do you want to be, you know, didn't want to be because because maybe somebody needs a little education, maybe they need an opportunity. Maybe they need to be invited to come and work the soup kitchen, you know, pack those backpacks, whatever it is, it's like maybe you don't know how good this feels. And so Wow, what a great conversation Okay, John, we're we're believers. We are here we are now Brahm Lee's, we are following you and how can other people connect with you? How can they connect with your incredible organization charitable impact? Yeah, give us all the places you are online to
• 50:21
  John Bromley: well, you know I'm on Twitter and I'm actually not on Facebook I am on Twitter I'm you know, I'm on LinkedIn terrible impact is there. As as Canadians you can come by check us out very easy to sign up for an impact. To account and start your, you know, giving journey or we restart your giving journey in with a donor advised fund as your tool. One of the things I would encourage people to do is like, We love getting questions from people. And it's partly why this this type of work you guys do in the podcast world is in the content role is so important, right? So like, we want, we want little topics to get to, like, you know, you know, help people understand our view on things. So if people like, anywhere, you're hurting the world if you want to, like reach out and give us some questions or some challenges to address, so that we can come together even with the question answered and say, okay, like, you know, what is like, is charity good or bad? Like, you know, maybe that's a bit too deep and philosophical. But we really like the engagement of people. And why is because we just want people starting to spend a little bit more time thinking about their relationship to giving. And it's totally cool, by the way to talk about all the bad and annoying stuff. And exactly, I'm giving that's totally cool. It's fun.
• 51:35
  John Bromley: It can even be funny, right? And then there's some, some good moments in there, too.
• 51:39
  Becky Endicott: You understand what he's doing? He's listening.
• 51:42
  Becky Endicott: You're just constantly listening. That's the way to do it. You're a great human. Yeah, my friend. I'm so glad that we are past connected.
• 51:51
  John Bromley: Well, thank you guys. I really appreciate the work you guys are doing. And the the podcasts are are awesome. So I look forward to listening to more of them. And please come and hang out in Canada. Just you know, bring your bring your really warm jacket. Come to where I live, which is in Vancouver where everyone thinks it's
• 52:10
  Becky Endicott: cold, but it's not. Hey, that's my kind of Canada. Thank you, my friend.
• 52:14
  John Bromley: Thank you so much, guys.
• 52:16
  Julie Confer: Hey, friends.
• 52:16
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• 52:18
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• 52:38
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• 52:49
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