Latest / Relish: a Christian podcast / Who Chooses Salvation? Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Question No One Escapes.

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Who Chooses Salvation? Calvinism, Arminianism, and the Question No One Escapes. · Relish: a Christian podcast

• 0:02
  Relish pleasing or zestful flavor a quantity
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  just sufficient to flavor to be pleased or
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  gratified by enjoy we are hoping that what we bring to your table today might
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  add some spice to your life welcome back to another episode of relish i am rowan
• 0:19
  miller next to me is pastor don patterson and down at the very end is my brother
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  noah miller older brother senior in high Or college.
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  Do they certainly look alike? Yeah.
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  Yeah. Maybe. They have traits. Some say that. Right. Yeah.
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  And I wanted to do this while Noah's home because he goes back to school real soon.
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  And these two gentlemen, believe it or not, are both seniors.
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  Now, granted, Roe is a senior in high school and Noah's a senior in college.
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  That is a little bit different.
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  But I wanted to look at some of the unique perspectives today because we won't
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  get to do that very often.
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  Yeah so how can you be more encouraging to others see that's sort of a turnaround
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  usually everybody asks me a question right uh.
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  I think I've started to do that more now than ever on basketball because I've
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  played the most minutes.
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  I've started a couple games as a freshman and started three seasons after that.
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  So being a starter is not a new thing. Right.
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  I'm just the role model whether I like it or not on the team.
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  People just look up to me and watch me. So I think being encouraging to others,
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  especially the underclassmen, I know when I was freshman and sophomore of varsity,
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  that meant a lot to me when an older guy was encouraging to me. Exactly.
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  That means, oh, man, I caught their eye.
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  Right. Yeah. That's cool. How about you, Noah?
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  Yeah, this is a good question.
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  I'm a pretty critical person just in general of myself.
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  Others people i'm around uh if someone
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  does something some way i often have a critique for it and
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  oftentimes i'm pretty vocal about it too if if
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  it's really sticking out um you got a so that's i mean sometimes so that's yeah
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  uh that's one thing that it can be a good thing but uh out of when it gets out
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  of control or i kind of lose a filter i guess uh it can tear people down pretty fast.
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  And, uh, I think as long, as long as I am aware that, uh, the words coming,
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  coming out of my mouth, have the ability to build people up or tear them down.
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  Um, I can still, um, kind of give them that critical, uh, feedback in a positive way.
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  Or, uh, if I don't think that's necessary, uh, you can just be kind to them
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  and look for the good in what they are doing and appreciate the time and effort
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  and the work that they put into what they're, uh, if you're talking about preaching.
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  Obviously, there's a lot of time that goes into that sermon and it doesn't need
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  to be picked apart into little bits and just, yeah.
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  You can find, you'll, you'll be able to find anything to complain about and
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  anything, uh, you look at.
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  So, uh, trying to see the bigger picture as a whole and, uh,
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  trying to pick out things that are good and praise those things too,
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  has been something that I'm trying to work on, been doing better at.
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  Yeah. And another 40 years to it, then you'll, uh, you'll have another perspective as well.
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  Well, 40, 50 years. Okay. We won't be very far on that one, but,
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  uh, you know, As an older person, you guys don't do things the way we used to do things. It's true.
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  And so sometimes my filter would be, well, when I was young,
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  and I go through that thing.
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  And so I've got to find new ways to encourage people.
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  And it's neat to see this generation embracing things.
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  Maybe, I guess what I've noticed in especially the last five,
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  six years is that this generation has a, uh,
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  renewed zeal that I hadn't seen for, well, I was missing it at any way for a
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  period of time. So it's good to see it now.
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  Yeah. A lot of my, my closest friends, the closest circle that I hold,
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  uh, we don't really hold back calling each other out.
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  Like if you're out of line, like your closest friends won't have a hard time
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  telling you where you missed your step.
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  And for those of you listening, I would encourage you to,
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  to, uh, find a group like that. Or if you think you have a group like that,
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  but maybe you're not calling each other out, maybe, maybe you're living really
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  well and good, good job to you.
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  But, um, I think all of us have things in our lives that we should probably
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  be called out on. Um, yeah.
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  Well, and just out of high school, you developed a Bible study of those kinds of guys.
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  Yep. And those kinds of guys, they don't mess around stepping on each other's
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  toes if they step on. It's true.
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  And the Bible study is still going strong to this day. And there's a lot of stepping on toes in it.
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  You'll get called out. Don has his hands full for sure. I get to watch it because
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  of our Saturday mornings together.
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  But you know, there's a certain cohesiveness that starts when people are willing
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  to get close enough to each other to say those things that need to be said.
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  And still care for each other. Right. Because nobody's dropped out of the study
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  because we've been rough.
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  But, you know, Ephesians 4, I think it's verses 14, 15, and 16 include a phrase,
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  speaking the truth in love.
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  And I think it's something that we've lost pretty much in the church because
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  we've been so nice to each other so long. Sure.
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  And being so nice to each other so long, then we've failed to make good,
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  solid, close relationships that allow us to have that conversation and speak the truth in love. Yeah.
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  It's like, it's like the parenting idea. Is it more loving for you to let your
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  kid get away with poor behavior or is it more loving to maybe,
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  uh, throw them in timeout or have them do a couple extra chores to try to get a lesson across?
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  Um, it's probably more loving to, uh, to step on his toes, if you will,
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  and, and put him through a little bit of hardship.
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  Because that'll teach them more in the long run. And that's exactly what's.
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  I like your list. It didn't include whooping their butt.
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  Yeah. Well, that happened. That happened in our family. We had to paddle.
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  But it was the last resort. Probably more than the others. Yeah.
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  Yeah. It was the last resort. Yeah. And that's what it should be.
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  That's cool. Yeah. It was the last resort in our house, too.
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  But it's the one the kids remember. Oh, yeah. 50 years later,
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  they still remember it. But for them, it wasn't 50.
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  Yeah. My oldest is just 44, so it wasn't 50 years ago.
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  They still remember it. They still remember it.
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  And I don't remember doing it more than once or twice, but they remember it.
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  That's good. Our family definitely did it more than twice.
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  And it could be selective remembering. Old-timers might be coming in on me all
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  of a sudden, and that could be as well.
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  Well, one of the things I wanted to test a little bit today while you were here with us, Noah.
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  Noah goes to Dort University. That's correct. And it's Reformed in its background.
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  And you have every once in a while gotten back with me and talked about Reformed
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  theology and how that shapes things.
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  And what I've been noticing is, so Tim Keller…,
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  He's in the reform group, a Presbyterian church.
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  And what I notice is my idea of reformed is different than what he preaches.
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  He preaches more like an Armenian background from his preaching than I think of.
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  And I don't know whether you'd think of Tim Keller as being reformed or not.
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  And I pulled up a, I had to get one of John Piper's reformed just to get an
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  idea of what I was talking about with the tulip thing too.
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  I remember tulip really fast, but the things that are behind it,
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  I had to sort of rush up on. Yep.
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  And the idea of, uh, so I, when, when I talk about Tim Keller's things,
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  I think he, he captures the depravity.
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  Of who we are, but it seems like it's more of a Armenian, like we would think of it.
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  So total depravity, that would be the T of tulip, right? Correct. Yep.
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  And so Calvinism would say that people are so deprived and rebellious that they're
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  unable to trust God without his special work of grace to change their hearts.
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  So they necessarily and willingly freely believe.
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  And so it's a work of God. Correct. Because of the depravity. Yep.
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  From the Armenian side, it says, we believed people are deprived and corrupt,
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  but they're able to provide the decisive impulse to trust God with the general
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  divine assistance that God gives to everyone.
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  So it's still in the choice part in the Armenian.
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  Okay. And that's more where we come as Anabaptists. But what I find it's interesting
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  is in these modern reformed guys like Tim Keller and even Baptist backgrounds like John Piper,
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  I see a movement from what I guess I was taught in seminary,
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  that it is total depravity.
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  There's nothing you can do about it. There's no choice you can make.
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  It's all God's design that gives you a place even to enter the kingdom.
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  So, Tim, doesn't sound like that. Does that mean the Calvinist move,
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  the reform move has come over?
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  Or no? Yeah, I don't know. I mean, I'm around the reform tradition.
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  I don't understand all of it.
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  I ask my roommates and my friends up there lots of questions.
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  I still don't understand all the details.
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  I think you nailed that part on the head, though, from what I do understand.
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  Yeah, it's just the difference between, for them, it's the difference between, like,
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  yeah like the holy spirit acting on your behalf and
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  allowing you to make the choice uh to
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  follow christ i guess like like you
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  and yourself would not be able to make the choice from the calvinist side uh
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  without the holy spirit like essentially doing it for you or like making it
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  so evident that like like that's that's the only path forward whereas like you
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  said a more armenian approach or more common approach, I guess.
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  Would be like there's something in us allows us to make the choice for our own.
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  Obviously there would be no, or there is still assistance of the Holy Spirit.
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  And it's definitely working through that, but there's not that total depravity
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  where like we are unable to do anything good from.
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  Even make that decision. Correct. Even make that decision. Do most of your friends
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  think that's total depravity or are they? Up at Dort, yes.
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  There's a good handful that's not that grew up in Reformed traditions.
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  And so I guess maybe this answers your question. Yeah, lots of my friends and
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  also some of my friends up there would also say that a lot of like his home church, for example,
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  not all of them necessarily understand the implications of the full tulip thing.
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  And most of them would disagree with some of what that acronym would stand for.
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  And so a lot of, yeah, one of my closest friends grew up in a Reformed tradition
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  and then kind of through his own Bible studies,
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  questioning has arrived at a more neutral position on the predestination doctrine.
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  Yeah, and I think what I've noticed is it seems like when I listen to Tim and
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  others in that, it seems like it leaves itself open to an Armenian interpretation when they preach.
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  And so I think, well, something's happening here.
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  The election thing has always been a real buzz. Unconditionally, let's see. Let's see.
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  The you in the tulip is unconditional election. Unconditional election.
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  Wait, yes. Yes. I think so. And so it's God chooses unconditionally whom he
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  will mercifully bring to faith and whom he will leave in their rebellion.
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  And then Armenian side would say God has chosen us, elected, to bring salvation.
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  All those whom he foresaw would believe by bringing about their own faith and
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  providing the decisive impetus themselves.
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  In those, God doesn't decisively produce the faith, but foresees it.
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  And that's the hard part of trying to wrap your head around this whole thing
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  is we know the omnis that God is, right?
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  The omnipresent, omnipotent, omniscient, And like, he knows everything in all
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  of time and in our human sense of time, just it can't explain like,
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  because I believe that God foresaw and that's in scripture.
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  Like you read that it's clear, but it's hard to balance that with,
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  well, I also know that I made the decision myself to follow Christ and it's
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  time is just a weird thing.
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  And it's, I don't have an explanation for it.
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  And I think that's why there's still a debate, right? And that's ultimately
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  what I say about most theologies is the fact that, well, it's our way of thinking about how God thinks.
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  Right. But in reality, we can't think like God.
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  And so to try to is sort of futile. Yeah, absolutely. That's Donism.
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  God does his thing and praise the Lord he does. But what I notice is it just
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  seems like there's a movement towards the center. And I wonder if it's because
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  the conversation that are being had. The third piece is atonement.
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  Calvinism says that in death, in the death of Christ, God provided sufficient
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  atonement for all, but designed that it be effective for the elect.
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  Meaning that Christ's death purchased for them the new covenant promise that
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  God would bring about in his people, faith and perseverance.
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  So Armenians then say that in death, in the death of Christ,
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  God provided sufficient atonement for all and designed it that it would become
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  effective by virtue of faith for which we, not Christ,
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  provide the decisive impetus. In other words, it's our decision.
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  Right. But our decision helps us buy in to that atonement that's been attained
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  through the cross of Jesus Christ.
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  Yeah, my problem with this one is that the Reform seems to make the...
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  Power of the blood of great Jesus Christ just a little bit smaller just for the elect.
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  And the Armenian would say, this is a big, big atonement. This is a big sacrifice that Christ made.
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  The real difference is that the Armenian would say, we decide to take part in the atonement.
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  And the reform says, no, that was already prescribed for us. Sure.
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  And, and I think, I think, uh, so this would be the, uh, L of the tulip limited
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  atonement, uh, gods, whether we want to say it or not, uh.
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  Salvation is the atonement is limited in some capacity.
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  So the argument is, is what is it limited in? So you have limited in,
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  uh, in Apple, I forget what they say. Uh, there's like two words.
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  One is it's limited, uh, by.
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  By like who, who chooses, who accepts it. Right.
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  So like, if it's unlimited, then that means everybody gets it no matter if you
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  believe or not. And that's, that's all over. I mean, correct. Yep.
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  Uh, so that's what like our, like, uh, Arminian position would be with it's
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  limited in that sense where everyone who chooses to believe, uh,
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  has access to it, but it's limited in the sense that not those who don't believe,
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  uh, will still not have access to it, but true.
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  But the calvinists would say it's limited
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  in it's like an avid like yeah
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  it's only available to the elect and then like the question
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  is where do you work like who's elect like well i don't know yeah so
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  we get back to that yeah again do they have usually have an answer for who the
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  elect is or no yeah yeah it's i i ask my friends who who subscribe to these
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  beliefs it's like well how do you know you're elect and it's it always just
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  comes back well that's like that's where the faith comes in. Mm-hmm.
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  Like, like, like faith that you're elect rather than, right.
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  Faith that you're elect, and then you're also, yeah, I don't,
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  yeah, that's the answer that they have given me for that. Yeah.
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  Well, like, what other answer is there? For me, it's encouraging that young
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  people your age are able to talk about theology to that level.
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  Sure. Some people out of seminary can't talk about their own personal theology
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  to that level. And so the fourth would be I, the new birth.
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  Calvinists say that the new birth is God's work of renewal in our hearts that
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  necessarily brings about the act of willing, hearty, saving faith.
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  Armenians would say that the new birth is God's work of renewal in our hearts
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  in response to our act of saving faith.
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  In other words, our response, it's in response to our decision to follow Jesus.
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  Um this is this testable grace right if
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  you're of the elect you don't you
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  can't say no it's it's like you
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  can't like that's another thing i don't understand right is like pretty much
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  every branch of christianity uh considers it a gift like salvation as a gift
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  from god uh you can say no to a gift like like here on earth so i don't at christmas
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  you don't have to accept that gift.
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  Grandma Hans is disrespectful, but it happens. And so a gift that is given is
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  not necessarily received. Exactly. Exactly.
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  So then the fifth one, perseverance.
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  Perseverance of the saints, the P. Calvinists say that God works infallibly
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  to preserve us in our faith, all of us who are truly born again,
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  and that no one is ever lost who is truly born of God.
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  Armenians say that God works to preserve His people, but He does not always
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  prevent some who are born again from falling away to destruction.
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  And, uh,
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  How's that work? Yeah, that's another one I don't understand.
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  And I think this is one that I'm closer to agreeing with on the Calvinist side,
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  or at least more in the middle, because who am I to tell someone if they're
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  saved or not? That's my thing.
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  Like, you can see it in their actions somewhat. You can hear them profess it.
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  But ultimately, like, God's the judge, and I can't make that call.
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  So, um, I would tend to believe that if one is, is truly saved,
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  that they won't have any, like they won't have a tendency to fall away.
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  Like they won't, that's not going to happen. But, but I, I don't know. Right.
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  Like, uh. The Armenian illustration would be like the Amish, you keep the order.
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  And if you're in the order, you keep the order. If you're not in the order and
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  you put rubber tires on your tractor, you know, then they would say,
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  oh, you lost your salvation.
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  Until you put steel wheels back on your tractor, whatever it is at the time.
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  And as if the church were given the task to do this administration of salvation.
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  That's even taking it off to the other side a little bit too far.
• 20:43
  Sure. Yeah. I like the assurance.
• 20:46
  I have assurance of my salvation. Absolutely. Through Christ. Yeah.
• 20:51
  Good. You guys are good. You cried. Yeah. That was, that was rough.
• 20:56
  I thought you did quite well. Well, I appreciate it. Yeah.
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  You guys are carrying your weight. I don't know so much about me,
• 21:02
  but. I liked what you had to add. Yeah, that's good.
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  But I, one of the things I want to encourage is, uh, you, you went out and went
• 21:11
  to a school that wasn't Mennonite.
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  Uh, I find, okay, I'm your pastor. I think you're stronger in your faith.
• 21:19
  Oh, absolutely. Because of, you know, you sort of had to go against the flow
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  a couple of times and really flesh out what do you believe. Yep.
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  And I think that's helpful. Yeah, absolutely. That was probably the most formative
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  part of my faith journey, honestly, is stepping outside of my bubble,
• 21:38
  if you will, and learning about another branch of Christianity.
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  Right now I have something to compare my upbringing to. Uh, now I can say,
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  oh, I really appreciate, uh, where I came from on this, but maybe the reformed
• 21:53
  people in practice do this better.
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  And I think this aligns more with Christ.
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  And, and I, I think, uh, being able to see both sides, um, it was,
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  was super beneficial for me in my faith journey.
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  I just want to encourage you in your faith and keep at it, brother.
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  Will do. Still say you ought to be a preacher, but anyway.
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  Uh i that's what i had for you guys and i appreciate your time uh.
• 22:20
  God bless you as you go back to school. Thanks. Thanks for having me on.
• 22:24
  And as seniors, is there a difference between a senior in high school and a
• 22:27
  senior in college? I mean, a senior in high school, you have your college to look forward to, right?
• 22:32
  Right. Yeah. Look forward to it. Excited. Or dread. Yeah. Okay.
• 22:35
  And as a senior, you have the dream of going into the workforce nine to five, five days a week.
• 22:44
  Yeah. It's the same thing. It's like, yeah, there's nothing,
• 22:50
  at least in my life so far, there hasn't been anything more like bittersweet, I guess you could say.
• 22:56
  Yeah, obviously graduating high school is awesome and there's a lot of bright
• 23:01
  things to look forward to.
• 23:02
  You're also leaving a lot of friends behind for the better, for worse, whatever it may be.
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  But then, yeah, same thing happens all over again four years later after undergrad.
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  Um you're going
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  into the workforce going into grad school if
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  you're doing that i'm not thankfully um but
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  yeah it's dr miller it's a lot it's it's a lot to look forward to it's a lot
• 23:28
  to worry about if if you worry i'm not a big warrior but um yeah it's pretty
• 23:36
  similar i would say just different seasons of life is all.
• 23:40
  But yeah, well, God bless you guys. Yeah. And it's good to have this brother
• 23:46
  thing going. Yeah. Right.
• 23:49
  Cool. Well, thanks for coming on, Noah. Thanks for having me.
• 23:53
  And thank you guys all for joining us. We'll see you next time. Lord willing.
• 23:58
  Thank you for joining us for this podcast. Feel free to become part of this
• 24:02
  ministry by sharing it with others.
• 24:03
  Our goal is to help each other grow deeper in our understanding of who God is
• 24:07
  and is calling to us in our daily lives.
• 24:10
  Thank you again for joining us and may God bless your day.