Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Why You Say Yes When You Really Mean No (And How To Start Setting Boundaries With Confidence) | Success | E554

Transcript

Why You Say Yes When You Really Mean No (And How To Start Setting Boundaries With Confidence) | Success | E554 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

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  Speaker 3: That's how it's done.
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: Now on with the show.
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  Speaker 3: Every time we bow our head to someone else, it
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  Speaker 3: takes a toll.
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  Speaker 1: There's a lot going on in the world these days,
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  Speaker 1: and many things are coming up for a lot of
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  Speaker 1: people that just don't sit well.
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  Speaker 2: We see in the news people being mistreated.
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  Speaker 1: We engage in conversations that don't go well. It's not
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  Speaker 1: uncommon to be in situations where you feel like you
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  Speaker 1: have to say yes, even when.
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  Speaker 2: You don't want to.
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  Speaker 3: If you are complying in your workforce over and over
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  Speaker 3: again and you're somewhere where you have to disregard your values,
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  Speaker 3: it takes a toll.
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  Speaker 1: And there is a real place in our culture for appropriate,
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  Speaker 1: intentional defiance that is values aligned. where we have the
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  Speaker 1: opportunity to stand up for ourselves, stand up for others,
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  Speaker 1: and stand up for what we believe in. When I
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  Speaker 1: explain what values are, simple but powerful terms as how
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  Speaker 1: you want to act, I get integrity, I get equality,
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  Speaker 1: I get justice, I get compassion. And they're very powerful
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  Speaker 1: if only we learn how to connect with them and
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  Speaker 1: also have the skill set to align with our values
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  Speaker 1: with what we do on a day-to-day basis. Today's guest
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  Speaker 1: is a very special one. One of my all-time favorite episodes,
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: as a matter of fact, is with Dr. Sunita Shah,
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  Speaker 1: the author of Defy. And she has so graciously agreed
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  Speaker 1: to come back into the studio with us to talk
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  Speaker 1: about how her work And her perspective has evolved and
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  Speaker 1: share some of her tips and insights so that you
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  Speaker 1: can practice intentional constructive defiance for the benefit of yourself,
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  Speaker 1: people you love, and maybe even the world.
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  Speaker 3: Dr.
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  Speaker 2: Sunita Sa.
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  Speaker 3: Welcome back. It's wonderful to be here. Thank you so
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  Speaker 3: much for inviting me back. It's such a pleasure.
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  Speaker 2: Well, thank you so much for your work.
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  Speaker 1: I loved your book, which our listeners here is now
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  Speaker 1: available on paperback. And you have been just doing such
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  Speaker 1: a phenomenal job of spreading this message of how to
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  Speaker 1: stand up and say no when the situation calls for it.
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  Speaker 1: You did a TED Talk on this topic not too
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  Speaker 1: long ago.
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  Speaker 3: Tell us a little bit more about that.
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  Speaker 1: Yes.
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  Speaker 3: Well, people have been very interested in this topic and
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  Speaker 3: it's become quite timely. I would say it's timeless and
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  Speaker 3: also timely that we need to be thinking about how
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  Speaker 3: to speak up when it really matters. And it's really
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  Speaker 3: a skill set. And I've done two TEDx talks now,
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  Speaker 3: one that came out last year. on why we remain
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  Speaker 3: silent in uncomfortable situations. And the one that came out
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  Speaker 3: recently in July, at the beginning of July, is about
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  Speaker 3: how to stand up for yourself and others. And it's
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  Speaker 3: really about, actually, I would say it's more about why
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  Speaker 3: you don't need to be loud to be defined. You
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  Speaker 3: can be defined in a quiet way. And as long
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  Speaker 3: as you are acting in alignment with your values, that
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  Speaker 3: is the important thing. So how do we get there?
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  Speaker 3: And how do we decide? when and where to deploy.
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  Speaker 3: And see, this is what.
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  Speaker 2: I love about your work.
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  Speaker 1: The applications here are so broad, right? Because stuff like
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  Speaker 1: this happens all the time. It can happen in our
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  Speaker 1: intimate partnerships, in our families. It could happen in the workplace.
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  Speaker 1: But then I think we've all seen things happening in
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  Speaker 1: the world, in our communities, where there's stuff going on
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  Speaker 1: that is not okay. And I mean, to be able
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  Speaker 1: to make decisions about where and when to step up
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  Speaker 1: and say something or do something is one of the
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  Speaker 1: requirements of being a citizen at this point, as far
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  Speaker 1: as I'm concerned. And so I'd love to spend some
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  Speaker 1: time with you today, just like unpacking all of that.
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  Speaker 1: But maybe we just start at the core. I mean,
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  Speaker 1: at the heart of your work, step number one is
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  Speaker 1: figuring out who you are and what you care about
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  Speaker 1: and what your values are.
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  Speaker 2: That's how we begin our defiance.
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  Speaker 3: Is that it? That's exactly right. I have something I've
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  Speaker 3: created called the Defiance Compass, which consists of three big
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  Speaker 3: questions that we can really ask ourselves. And the very
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  Speaker 3: first one is, who am I? And that's really about
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  Speaker 3: your values. What do you stand for? What is important
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  Speaker 3: to you? And to be able to do that, this
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  Speaker 3: is work that we need to do before we're ever
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  Speaker 3: caught in the moment, is to really know what our
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  Speaker 3: values are. And many of us don't really know what
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  Speaker 3: our values are. We, you know, spend time sort of
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  Speaker 3: thinking about a lot of things, but not so much
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  Speaker 3: about our values. This is why I have my students,
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  Speaker 3: my executive students, my MBA students, I always have them
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  Speaker 3: start with a value exercise and to think about what
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  Speaker 3: are your values and why are they important to you?
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  Speaker 3: And this is a really good exercise to do. You know,
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  Speaker 3: most people don't want to do this, but The research
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  Speaker 3: really shows very clearly if you have clarity on your values,
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  Speaker 3: if you can write them down, you're more likely to
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  Speaker 3: act in alignment with them, which is great because my
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  Speaker 3: research has also shown me again and again that what
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  Speaker 3: someone believes their values to be is actually quite different
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  Speaker 3: from how they actually behave. And so writing them down
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  Speaker 3: gives you clarity. You're more likely to act in alignment
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  Speaker 3: with them. And you also have a lower risk. biological
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  Speaker 3: stress reaction. You've got lower cortisol if you know what
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  Speaker 3: your values are. And, you know, so let's, one of
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  Speaker 3: the surveys I show my students is one that was
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  Speaker 3: done on high school students. So this starts at.
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  Speaker 4: A very young age. So there's a survey of.
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  Speaker 3: Over 20,000 high school students. And on that survey, they
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  Speaker 3: reported several different activities. And what we found was that nearly,
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  Speaker 3: nearly two thirds of these students were confessed to cheating
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  Speaker 3: in an exam. Nearly one-third admitted that they'd stolen something
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  Speaker 3: from a store in the past year.
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  Speaker 4: This is quite shocking.
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  Speaker 2: Criminal masterminds. Your class is full of them.
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  Speaker 1: Who knew?
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  Speaker 2: Cornell, all right.
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  Speaker 3: These were actually not my students, not Cornell students. They
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  Speaker 3: were high school students.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, that's right.
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  Speaker 3: You mentioned that. So, yeah, this was a national survey
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  Speaker 3: done of 20,000 high school students. And the last one,
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  Speaker 3: for anyone who has a high school student, it's probably
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  Speaker 3: going to break your heart, was that over 80% of
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  Speaker 3: them said that they had lied to their parent about
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  Speaker 3: something significant. And these estimates, right, are going to be
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  Speaker 3: on the lower side because even at the end, one
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  Speaker 3: in four students confessed that they had lied on one
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  Speaker 3: question in the survey.
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  Speaker 2: So, of course they did.
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  Speaker 3: Oh, it starts at a young age and we continue
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  Speaker 3: as adults, actually, because even though the students were saying
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  Speaker 3: all of these things, they were also saying they were
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  Speaker 3: quite content with their ethical conduct. And so I've learned
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  Speaker 3: that for many of us, the distance between who we
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  Speaker 3: think we are and what we actually do is enormous.
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  Speaker 3: And we probably come across this many times. We'll say, oh,
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  Speaker 3: that wasn't me. You know, we'll make an excuse for ourselves.
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  Speaker 3: That wasn't me. And if you say it enough times,
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  Speaker 3: it's like, well, actually, that is you because how you
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  Speaker 3: act does become who you are. And a lot of
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  Speaker 3: what might be going on with the high school students
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  Speaker 3: is that they're being influenced by other people as well.
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  Speaker 3: And so learning how to defy is really important. So
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  Speaker 3: knowing your values and learning how to defy is really,
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  Speaker 3: really important. But that first step in the defiance compass,
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  Speaker 3: who am I, is really important to know.
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  Speaker 4: And we can go on and we can talk a
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  Speaker 4: little bit.
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  Speaker 3: More about this step as well in terms of what
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  Speaker 3: do we mean by values? By values, I don't mean goals.
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  Speaker 3: I don't mean certain beliefs. I don't mean something like,
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  Speaker 3: you know, what we might call a moral conviction, like
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  Speaker 3: abortion is wrong or abortion is right. I don't mean
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  Speaker 3: these stances that we take, because often when we take
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  Speaker 3: a stance, there's more than one. answer, right? Some people
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  Speaker 3: will agree, some people will not agree, and it can
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  Speaker 3: be subjective in that way. But by values, what I
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  Speaker 3: mean is like simple things regarding how we want to
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  Speaker 3: enact our behavior on a day-to-day basis. And they come
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  Speaker 3: down to often single words that are really powerful so
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  Speaker 3: people will say integrity you know even the people that
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  Speaker 3: answered in this survey survey will still say integrity is
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  Speaker 3: really important to them when i ask my executive students
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  Speaker 3: and what i do ask the cornell students is to
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  Speaker 3: rate themselves on a scale of 0 to 100 on
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  Speaker 3: how honest they think they are relative to other people
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  Speaker 3: in the room. And on a scale of 0 to 100,
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  Speaker 3: 0 means that you're the least honest in the room.
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  Speaker 3: 100 means you're the most honest in the room. What
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  Speaker 3: do you think most of my students are saying at
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  Speaker 3: this point?
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  Speaker 1: 100.
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  Speaker 4: They're all in the.
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  Speaker 3: Top 10, right? So 90, yeah, all above here.
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  Speaker 4: And you can't, right?
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  Speaker 3: If you're rating yourself relative to other people in the room,
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  Speaker 3: the average has to be 50, which means half of
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  Speaker 3: the people have to be below 50. And nobody has
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  Speaker 3: ever given me an answer below 50 at all. So
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  Speaker 3: it's all around 85, 90, 95. People will rate themselves.
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  Speaker 3: But whether we can enact that on a day-to-day basis
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  Speaker 3: is a different thing. So if you rate your integrity
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  Speaker 3: as being really high, you want to enact that behavior.
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  Speaker 3: But when I ask my students, What are your values?
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  Speaker 3: When I explain what values are, simple but powerful terms
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  Speaker 3: as how you want to act, I get integrity.
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  Speaker 4: I get equality.
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  Speaker 3: I get justice. I get compassion. All of these things,
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  Speaker 3: they seem to come up year after year after year.
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  Speaker 3: They're common values that a lot of people hold. And
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  Speaker 3: they're very powerful if only we learn how to connect
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  Speaker 3: with them and also have the skill set to align
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  Speaker 3: with our values with what we do on a day-to-day basis.
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  Speaker 3: And that's what this book is really about. The work
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  Speaker 3: that I did on Defiance and Compliance is just simply
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  Speaker 3: saying yes to what aligns with our values and no
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  Speaker 3: to what doesn't align with those values. So we can
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  Speaker 3: become our aspirational selves.
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: Can I ask you a curiosity question? This is just
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  Speaker 1: something that's coming up for me as you're talking, is
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  Speaker 1: that the other meta message that your research is showing,
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  Speaker 1: both with High school students and those in your classroom,
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  Speaker 1: you know, a high school student is saying, I value
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  Speaker 1: getting a good grade on this test more than I
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  Speaker 1: value doing it the honest way and not cheating. Or
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  Speaker 1: I value self-concept, right, than I do in having you
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  Speaker 1: think I'm a bad person. And similar themes here. And
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  Speaker 1: I can't help but wonder if one of the primary
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  Speaker 1: obstacles even to defiance is is that frequently people are
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  Speaker 1: prioritizing the value of how they are perceived by others
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  Speaker 1: over things like integrity, for example, or honesty.
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  Speaker 2: Have you found that?
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  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: So the way that you described it there was more
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  Speaker 3: we're having a value clash.
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  Speaker 4: And that is, I would kind of push on that.
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  Speaker 2: Or a hierarchy, I should say.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I mean, sometimes there is a clash of values,
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  Speaker 3: for sure. But other times when we're thinking about what
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  Speaker 3: are our values, you can list them, right? These are
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  Speaker 3: the values. Maybe you have three top values. They're the
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  Speaker 3: most important to you. Maybe integrity, maybe compassion. A lot
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  Speaker 3: of people that take my healthcare leadership course, it is
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  Speaker 3: about compassion, right? So you can identify what's really important
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  Speaker 3: to you. And then you have to think about, well,
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  Speaker 3: how do my actions align? Because to get a good grade,
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  Speaker 3: At school, it's more of a goal. I wouldn't say
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  Speaker 3: that this is a value of how we want to
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  Speaker 3: act on a day in, day out. So are we
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  Speaker 3: going to abandon our values for that goal? That's the
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  Speaker 3: question that's really clashing. And if you want to build character,
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  Speaker 3: this is all about the character of the person. It's
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  Speaker 3: not just about fulfilling goals and wishes, but it's about
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  Speaker 3: who am I? This is how I want to act. Yes,
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  Speaker 3: I would love a fantastic grade. I would love to
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  Speaker 3: have these items from the store, but what am I
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  Speaker 3: going to give to get?
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  Speaker 1: I see.
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  Speaker 3: And when we start to disregard our values, it really
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  Speaker 3: does take a toll on who we are. And it
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  Speaker 3: does change who we are as well. It changes our character. Well,
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  Speaker 3: and this is so important.
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  Speaker 1: And I can really understand how this this compass that
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  Speaker 1: you're talking about, that's really the heart of defiance, does
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  Speaker 1: require a deep connection with the values that you are
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  Speaker 1: not not just yourself. acknowledging, but really committed to expressing.
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  Speaker 1: Because I'll just, as an aside, I see this all
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  Speaker 1: the time, this discrepancy, even in work as a couples counselor.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I'll sit down with a couple and be like, okay,
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  Speaker 1: so let's talk about your most important values. And they'll say, family, love,
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  Speaker 1: relationships by children. And then I'll say, okay, so let's
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: take me into your day to day. What do you
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  Speaker 1: do with your time? And it is play like seven
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: hours of video games a day. And like, we don't
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  Speaker 1: talk to each other, you know, like there's all this.
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  Speaker 1: So there's like a deep disconnect between what you do.
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  Speaker 1: And it sounds like some of your research uncovered this
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  Speaker 1: with your students. And so it seems like what you're
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  Speaker 1: saying is this intentional work to get clear about who
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  Speaker 1: you are, what you stand for, but then how do
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  Speaker 1: you show up in the world in a way that
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  Speaker 1: is congruent with you, who you have decided to be?
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  Speaker 2: Is Is that the right way to say it?
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  Speaker 3: Absolutely. That's absolutely. This is what the Defining Compass is
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  Speaker 3: all about. So that first question is, who am I?
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  Speaker 3: And then once we have determined this, which requires some
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  Speaker 3: inner work beforehand to really determine like, what's important to me?
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  Speaker 3: What do I stand for? What are my values? And
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  Speaker 3: how did I come to them? Then the second question is,
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  Speaker 3: You're looking outside now.
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  Speaker 4: So not internal.
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  Speaker 3: You're looking outside and you're saying, what type of situation
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  Speaker 3: is this?
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  Speaker 4: So we can.
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  Speaker 3: Ask ourselves a couple of additional questions here. Is it
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  Speaker 3: safe and is it effective for me to act in
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  Speaker 3: this situation? So here you're assessing the situation because that
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  Speaker 3: is important too. Because there are costs for how we act.
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  Speaker 3: There are costs for remaining silent and not doing anything.
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  Speaker 3: And there's costs for all of these. There's costs for
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  Speaker 3: compromising your values. There's costs for acting in alignment with
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  Speaker 3: your values. So here we need to assess the external situation.
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  Speaker 2: Give us some examples. What are we talking about right now?
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  Speaker 1: Right.
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  Speaker 3: So one thing I will say here is that Some
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  Speaker 3: of the research I've done, for example, I did a
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: big survey and interviews in a hospital and I was
• 16:49
  Speaker 3: asking nurses, what keeps them from speaking up about medical errors?
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  Speaker 3: And what they would say here were those two reasons.
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  Speaker 3: So first of all, there was fear, right? There was
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: some safety concern when they were thinking about, is it
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  Speaker 3: safe for me to speak up? What I was hearing
• 17:04
  Speaker 3: is that there's concern. Am I going to keep my job?
• 17:07
  Speaker 3: What are the consequences of this? So What are other
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  Speaker 3: people going to think of me? So the social consequences,
• 17:13
  Speaker 3: financial consequences, if you lose your job, career consequences, all
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: of these things, there was some aspect of safety going
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: on here. And even if you're not in working, if
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  Speaker 3: you're in a different situation, for example, I've interviewed a
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: lot of people about getting stopped by the police and
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  Speaker 3: what we should do in that situation if you think
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  Speaker 3: that the police were wrong for stopping you in a
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: traffic stop, for example. And the question you want to
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  Speaker 3: ask is, is it safe, you know, in that situation?
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  Speaker 3: It might not be safe in that situation to defy.
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  Speaker 3: And certainly for many people and some groups more than others,
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  Speaker 3: it's much.
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  Speaker 2: More costly to defy.
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  Speaker 1: I mean, I hope it's okay to say this out loud,
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  Speaker 1: but I think we've also seen examples I mean, I remember, gosh,
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: was it this past winter, standing in my kitchen watching
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: this video of a young man getting shot on the
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  Speaker 1: street for like trying to defy and help somebody who
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: was getting, you know, sprayed in the face by an
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  Speaker 1: ICE officer. And so like this struggle is real and
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  Speaker 1: it can be quite dangerous. And you need to think about, OK,
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  Speaker 1: do I want to take action in this moment to
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  Speaker 1: push back against oppressive forces, whatever, stand up for my
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  Speaker 1: values or live to fight another day and, you know.
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  Speaker 2: It's hard.
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  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
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  Speaker 3: I mean, I'm so sorry you had to see that, right?
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  Speaker 3: But this is happening in our world. And knowing and
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: being at least mentally prepared for some of this is important.
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: And prior to this, I interviewed a lot of my
• 18:38
  Speaker 3: students for the book, a lot of my MBA students
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: and executive students. And a lot of the black men
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: in my class did come and talk to me about this. Like,
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: you know, they want to comply because they want to
• 18:50
  Speaker 3: live and they want to go home at the end
• 18:52
  Speaker 3: of the day. I do remember one student that said
• 18:55
  Speaker 3: to me something harrowing. He talked about the, first of all,
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: one student mentioned the costly dichotomy, right? There's a cost
• 19:05
  Speaker 3: if you defy because they could be a threat to
• 19:08
  Speaker 3: physical safety, as you know. And there's also a cost
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: if you comply. And this is what one of my
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: other students told me was that When I asked him,
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: what would you advise people to do in this situation?
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: And he hesitated and he said, well, I know what
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: we're told to do in this situation, but we're told
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: to comply because otherwise bad things will happen to us.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: But bad things are already happening to us. And every
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: time we bow our head to someone else, it takes
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: a toll. It takes a toll. And there are costs
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: of compliance, you know. anxiety, depression, stress, and even the nurses.
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: if you are complying in your workforce over and over again,
• 19:54
  Speaker 3: and you're somewhere where you have to disregard your values,
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: it takes a toll. We know we lose sleep over it,
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: chronic inflammation, depression, dissatisfaction. We get all of these things.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: So we shouldn't neglect the cost of compliance as well.
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: But we do need to ask, is it safe enough?
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: And will it be effective as well? Because some of
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: the nurses were also saying to me that, you know,
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: I'm not scared of speaking up. I will speak up.
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: But I've done it so many times, but nothing ever changes. Now,
• 20:27
  Speaker 3: if you think about it, if you think about some
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: of the really famous no's in our history, for example,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: Rosa Parks saying no on that bus. If you think
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: about those two questions with her, is it safe? It
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: wasn't safe for Rosa Parks to defy. In fact, she
• 20:45
  Speaker 3: had a death threat. She was unemployed for 10 years.
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: 10 years. For 10 years after that, you know, lots
• 20:52
  Speaker 3: of health problems, her marriage.
• 20:54
  Speaker 4: There was tension.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: There was a lot going on. And I don't say
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: that to sort of worry people and think that they
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: have to comply all the time. I just want the
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: full human picture to be there. in terms of when
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: are you going to consciously comply in that situation because
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: it's not safe enough or it's not effective enough? And
• 21:16
  Speaker 3: when are you going to decide to defy? Even with
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: all the costs, Rosa Parks said 10 years after the
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: fact that if she had to do it again, she
• 21:25
  Speaker 3: would because she was so aligned and connected to her
• 21:29
  Speaker 3: value for equality. That was really important to her. And
• 21:33
  Speaker 3: that's what she wanted to do. It was also, strategic
• 21:37
  Speaker 3: to do it at that point because she did have backing.
• 21:42
  Speaker 3: She could make this a movement and it did indeed
• 21:44
  Speaker 3: become a civil rights movement at that point. So it
• 21:47
  Speaker 3: was effective. But some people will defy even when it's
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: not safe and even when they can't even predict whether
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: it will be effective or not because they're so connected
• 21:59
  Speaker 3: to their values. So it is a deeply personal decision
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: that cost calculus for us. It is a deeply personal one,
• 22:07
  Speaker 3: but it's one that we need to take.
• 22:10
  Speaker 4: And I would just also.
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Caution between just asking those questions as rationalizations, because if
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: you ask, is it going to be safe? Defiance is
• 22:21
  Speaker 3: inherently risky. You know, you're going to be waiting forever
• 22:26
  Speaker 3: if you wait for it to be 100% safe. So
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: I would ask, is it safe enough? Will it be
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: effective enough? And then not comply forever. If you need
• 22:36
  Speaker 3: to consciously comply in a situation because it's very dangerous,
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: of course comply. But then think about what you can
• 22:43
  Speaker 3: do afterwards. So one of my students that told me
• 22:46
  Speaker 3: that he got stopped at a traffic light. No, he
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: actually got stopped because he was told it was a
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: California stop. which apparently is, yes, I didn't know what
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: one was either. He told me this type of stop
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: is where you slow down, but you don't actually completely stop.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Oh, I didn't hear about that one.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: I had not heard about it either, but he educated
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: me on that.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: And he told me.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: That he was absolutely convinced he had stopped. And like
• 23:16
  Speaker 3: when he stopped, you know, he had been told what
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: to do by his father, what to do in this
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: type of situation, just keep calm, keep his hands on
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: the wheel. Tell the police officer exactly what you're doing.
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: I'm just going to reach for my license. He had
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: been coached by that, which was, you know, he had
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: received messages on what to do. And what he decided,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: he was looking around to see if there was any
• 23:41
  Speaker 3: cameras that could dispute what the police officer's interpretation was.
• 23:47
  Speaker 4: But he couldn't see any.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: And he decided in that situation that was not the
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: time to defy. So he complied with everything. And he
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: said the officers were quite nice. They were quite pleasant.
• 23:57
  Speaker 3: They handed him back his license. They wrote up a
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: ticket for him. And then they said, have a good day.
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: And he was still shaking when he got home from
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: that encounter. And he decided to challenge it later on
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: in court rather than on the streets. That was him
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: deferring defiance to another day. And so we might be
• 24:17
  Speaker 3: able to do those things. We consciously comply because it's
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: not safe enough. until a day that we can actually
• 24:26
  Speaker 3: enact our defines in a safe and more effective way.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:30
  Speaker 3: So that's the second question. Is it safe and is
• 24:33
  Speaker 3: it going to be effective?
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: This is such an important consideration. And what you're talking
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: about is really truly informed decision-making and a lot of
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: intentionality that is going into these moments where it's This
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: can look like a lot of different things. But before
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: we move on, I just want to amplify something that
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: you said sort of in passing is the personal consequences
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: that can also come when you don't defy or say
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: something or try at least to do something. You know,
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: funnily enough, just before this conversation that you and I
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: are having today, I had the great pleasure of interviewing
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: a colleague of mine, Dr.
• 25:14
  Speaker 2: Jamie Lusk.
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: Who is a Marine Corps veteran, a military psychologist with
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: a VA who specializes not just in PTSD, but in
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: moral injury. And that is a very real and sometimes
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: incapacitating condition that happens when someone participates in a regrettable
• 25:38
  Speaker 1: instance or fails to stop something from happening or is
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: somehow participating in things where sometimes they really don't have agency.
• 25:50
  Speaker 2: They were there.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: They could have done nothing. But other times there was this,
• 25:55
  Speaker 1: I should have said something. I should have done something.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: I could have changed the outcome. And a failure to
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: do so can destroy their lives because of this. this
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: sense of having done something unforgivable that led to really
• 26:09
  Speaker 1: tragic outcomes. And so healthcare providers, law enforcement, military, and
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: so those are big picture examples, but these can happen
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: in small ways throughout our lives. And it is oftentimes
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: this hidden psychological wound that can happen. And so the
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: stakes are high. So I just want to say to
• 26:28
  Speaker 1: anybody listening, if you're thinking, well, the easier way is
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: just to kind of like go along and it'll be fine.
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: Yes and no, right?
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: I mean, yeah. Yeah. And some of my research on
• 26:40
  Speaker 3: a smaller scale, we probably recognize in ourselves, I call
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: it the kicking yourself syndrome, where we predict that if
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: we follow the advice of another person, that we are
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: going to feel less regret, that we can blame the
• 26:58
  Speaker 3: advisor if something goes wrong. Like it's their responsibility. We're
• 27:02
  Speaker 3: passing on our responsibility. But what I actually found in
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: the studies that I ran was when you go against
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: your better judgment and follow the advice of someone else.
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: And even if you might know, like this doesn't sound great,
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: you know, even if you know it's obviously bad advice,
• 27:18
  Speaker 3: it actually leads to more regret. You actually feel more responsible.
• 27:23
  Speaker 3: You have more self-blame than before. So the things that
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: you forecast beforehand that if I follow what somebody else
• 27:30
  Speaker 3: is doing, they can take responsibility. I can blame them.
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: I'm putting it on them. We don't find that happens.
• 27:35
  Speaker 3: We find the opposite, actually, that you blame yourself more
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: and you have more rumination about it. And this is
• 27:42
  Speaker 3: because you're asking yourself these questions.
• 27:46
  Speaker 4: You have this.
• 27:47
  Speaker 3: Haunting feeling of what could have been. You know, it's
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: the what if, what we call the counterfactual. What if
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: I had just done this or said this or have
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: just rejected that advice? And it can happen in the
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: situations that you're talking about, those really big situations. And
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: also with the nurses in hospitals or physicians. But it
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: can also happen in more mundane situations.
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: My co-author on this paper was telling me that just
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: a really mundane situation where her husband had told her to...
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: not bother taking her coat out. And she had thought
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: her better judgment was that she should have taken her
• 28:26
  Speaker 3: coat out. And then she very much followed his advice
• 28:29
  Speaker 3: and regretted it. And we're probably all very familiar with
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: this type of feeling, you know. And if we follow
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: advice that we know goes against our better judgment or
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: a suggestion, then we are going to actually feel worse,
• 28:43
  Speaker 3: even though we predict everyone. And I think....
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: Nine out of 10 dentists would agree that of all
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: the dark emotions we can experience, just what you said there,
• 28:56
  Speaker 1: regret is often the worst.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's where it gets hard.
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: It stays with you. It stays with you. Okay. So, Dr.
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: Shaw, there are so many really good reasons to be
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: very intentional about all of this, starting by getting clear
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: on your values and figuring out in advance what you
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: stand for, what you are actually willing to fight for
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: in the moment, but then also some decision-making, that compass,
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: if you will, that helps you make good decisions around,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: is this going to put me in danger? Is this
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: going to be effective? Defiance can look like a lot
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: of different things in a life, but the goal is
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: to have some agency ideally over outcomes and at the
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: end of the day walk out of that feeling like
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: you did the right thing you you stood up for
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: what you believed in you have more respect for yourself
• 29:53
  Speaker 1: you are part of what you believe to be right
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: so We need to take a very quick break. But
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: on the other side of this, I would actually love
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: to dive deeper into maybe three different iterations, if you're willing,
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: because I think in small ways, we all have situations
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: that happen in our daily lives with our personal relationships,
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: where we have those competing values. We want to maintain
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: connections with people that we love and also needing to
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: set limits and stand up for ourselves. So that would
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: be one. I think we turn that up a few
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: notches if there's stuff that we encounter in the workplace,
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: which to your point with nurses can have like economic
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: consequences that.
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: Could be a bigger system. Can we impact the outcome anyway?
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: But then on a third level, on a societal, a
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: cultural level, even in our communities, like if there's stuff
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: happening that is just not okay from our perspective, where
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: do we draw those lines? How can we show up
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: as the forces of good we want to be? So
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: I know that's a tall order, but... Are you up
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: for it?
• 30:57
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 31:13
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• 33:12
  Speaker 1: So thank you so much for your patience and for
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  Speaker 1: making space for our values-aligned sponsors who graciously support the
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: show so that we can bring it to you. And
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: now we're back with.
• 33:23
  Speaker 2: My very special guest, Dr. Sunita Sa.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: And she has been walking us through the art and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: science of defiance through a framework that she developed called
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: the Values Compass. And we've walked through a number of
• 33:37
  Speaker 1: these different elements so far. Dr. Sa is going to
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: take a moment to explain the fourth, and then we're
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: going to roll into how to apply these skills in
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: different parts of our lives, personally, professionally, and at a
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: societal level.
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: So Dr.
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: Sa, welcome back.
• 33:54
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Yes, I would love to describe the defiance compass in
• 33:59
  Speaker 3: more detail. And I do write about this in depth
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: in the book because so many people use it and
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: we can explain many of the moments of defiance and
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: compliance by using it. And it has three main questions.
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: So we've covered the first one, who am I? And
• 34:16
  Speaker 3: the second one, which is what type of situation is this?
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: And with that external one, we might also want to
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: ask some additional questions such as, is it safe? Is
• 34:24
  Speaker 3: it effective? Then once we've done that internal, who am I?
• 34:29
  Speaker 3: And then the external, what type of situation is this?
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: Then that last question that we ask ourselves is, what
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: does a person like me do in a situation such
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: as this? Now, this is a really powerful one. And
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: it's actually really good to ask this in the third
• 34:45
  Speaker 3: person because we can think about our aspirational selves. So
• 34:51
  Speaker 3: whereas the first question is all about values, the second
• 34:54
  Speaker 3: question is about safety and impact. This question is about
• 34:58
  Speaker 3: our responsibilities and also our ability to act. We need
• 35:02
  Speaker 3: to have the ability to divide, right? If we've never
• 35:05
  Speaker 3: done it before, we're going to struggle. So that's where
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: the practice element comes in. And we can talk a
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: lot more about how to practice that. But what does
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: a person like me do in a situation like this
• 35:16
  Speaker 3: is all about tapping into our aspirational selves. Who do
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: we want to be? What is our responsibility rather than
• 35:23
  Speaker 3: abdicating it? How can we take responsibility for this situation?
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: And that goes back to connecting with our values because
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: how we act here is going to go right back
• 35:35
  Speaker 3: to who I am.
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: It supports it. There's an identity component, right? I am
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: the kind of person who, and this is really powerful. It's,
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: I mean, values alignment, but a definition of self. that
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: exists through these actions. Absolutely.
• 35:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: What does a person like me with these values, integrity, fairness, compassion,
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: what does a person like me do in a situation
• 36:03
  Speaker 3: like this? So that brings us back to who we
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: are and who we want to be. And that's why
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: it's such a powerful question to act in the end
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: and something that we can use when we're stuck in
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: those ways, in that those difficult moments, this is going
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: to help guide you.
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: Okay. That's fantastic.
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: And just out of curiosity, and maybe this is getting
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: too nitty gritty here, but I guess, you know, well,
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: stepping back to say, I'm sure you go into a
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: lot of this in your book. So the whole framework
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: is there. But for the benefit of our friends who
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: are here with us in this conversation, I'm wondering if
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: there are facts or things that you would suggest that
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: can help people get their arms around some of these questions?
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: Because these are things that.
• 36:53
  Speaker 1: Require a lot of thought and intentionality. I mean, if
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: you ask me any of these questions, I'd have to
• 36:59
  Speaker 1: sit here for a little while and talk through what
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: I think.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: What do you advise?
• 37:05
  Speaker 3: Numerous things I advise, right? So, I mean, the first
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: thing that we can do is figure out our values.
• 37:10
  Speaker 3: That's what we've spoken about. But the thing that really...
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: Disables defiance is surprise.
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: Not often.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: The situation that you saw from your window.
• 37:21
  Speaker 1: No, I looking, looking through, I was watching the video
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: about what happened. I wasn't, thank goodness, seeing it through
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: my window. That would be a whole different therapy session.
• 37:33
  Speaker 3: Dr.
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: Saab, but I mean, it was, it was overwhelming and. But.
• 37:39
  Speaker 3: Often, if we're surprised in a situation, it disables defiance, right?
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: It's harder for us. So the thing that we need
• 37:46
  Speaker 3: to do is really anticipate these situations. So the first
• 37:50
  Speaker 3: time we might.
• 37:50
  Speaker 2: Comply, right?
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: I also describe in my book, and we spoke about
• 37:54
  Speaker 3: it on the last podcast a little bit, the Listeners
• 37:57
  Speaker 3: want to go back to that about how, you know,
• 37:59
  Speaker 3: I was advised to take a particular scan that was
• 38:03
  Speaker 3: unnecessary for me. And the first time I complied with
• 38:06
  Speaker 3: it because it was a surprise to me. And then
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: I thought about it. And this aspect, we can often
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: anticipate the situations that require defiance. Why? Because we've seen
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: it either through a video we've read about it or
• 38:20
  Speaker 3: we've experienced it ourselves. And we've complied and maybe regretted it.
• 38:26
  Speaker 4: And that's the key.
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: Personal share.
• 38:27
  Speaker 3: I thought of you.
• 38:28
  Speaker 1: I honestly know it was probably a couple of months ago.
• 38:31
  Speaker 1: I was at the dentist office doing a routine cleaning
• 38:34
  Speaker 1: and they're like, oh, it's time to update your x-rays, blah, blah, blah.
• 38:36
  Speaker 1: My teeth are fine. And they started taking all these x-rays.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: And I got through like x-ray number seven. And then
• 38:43
  Speaker 1: I actually thought of our conversation. It was like, and
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: we're done. If you have a reason to believe there's
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: something wrong with my teeth, sure, we could take some x-rays.
• 38:50
  Speaker 3: But I'm not.
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: I was like, how many x-rays is this?
• 38:52
  Speaker 3: They're like 24.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: I'm like, no, I'm not participating in this. And I
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: felt great about it. And so thank you for inspiring me.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: And that would be one small example of, you know,
• 39:03
  Speaker 1: having that agency to say no. Yes.
• 39:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, it's great because as you said,
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: like you felt good about it after you've done it.
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: And often when we comply, we have that tension, right?
• 39:15
  Speaker 3: Which tells us it's that signal for us to defy,
• 39:18
  Speaker 3: you know, it's, actually a strength but we try to
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: get rid of it we try to think we have
• 39:22
  Speaker 3: to push through the other person knows better but actually
• 39:25
  Speaker 3: when we know this is our better judgment and we
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: act in alignment with it that tension disappears and we
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: feel so much better so yes definitely we can think
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: about the times that we complied and anticipate what's going
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: to happen so for example i know at work in
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: a faculty meeting somebody is going to say something that's
• 39:48
  Speaker 3: very inappropriate about somebody not in the room.
• 39:50
  Speaker 4: How do I know this?
• 39:51
  Speaker 3: Because it's happened every single time. So, you know, that person, yes,
• 39:59
  Speaker 3: that person is going to say this.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: You know, and it's going to be problematic.
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: There it is.
• 40:04
  Speaker 4: Nobody says anything. Everybody's too uncomfortable.
• 40:06
  Speaker 3: And we all smile and we try to get on
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: with it.
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: Oh, my God.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: And so we can basically anticipate that. those situations and
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: we can visualize it, which is really helpful. And then
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: we can start to practice what we wish we had said.
• 40:22
  Speaker 3: And this role playing in scripting is actually quite important.
• 40:26
  Speaker 3: You know, you see children doing it all the time
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: in their rooms, but we don't do it so much
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: as adults. And it's really important, especially if you have
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: been socialized to be compliant and those neurons aren't firing
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: like you're Of course, your politeness neurons are all well
• 40:43
  Speaker 3: built in. You've been rewarded for compliance. It's very hard
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: to get the other ones to fire. Because maybe you
• 40:50
  Speaker 3: have been punished for saying no.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I was just thinking about trauma survivors can really struggle
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: with this. Even in neutral situations where it would be fine,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: there's this something awful is going to happen feeling.
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: So exactly. So how do we get our agency back?
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: We need to get used to thinking about what we
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: would have liked to have said and what we would
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: have liked to have done. And it doesn't even need
• 41:14
  Speaker 3: to be confrontational a lot of the time. We could
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: just ask, you know, I could ask the colleague, the
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: faculty member in the meeting, what do you mean by that?
• 41:22
  Speaker 3: And it just gets a pause on it. It raises
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: the volume on the situation, just asking for some clarity.
• 41:29
  Speaker 4: Will it change that?
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: I don't know. My person might change, might not change.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: But just putting it out there, you've changed the water
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: in which everybody else is swimming. And maybe that person
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: will think twice before saying it in front of you again. Maybe.
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: they won't say it again when.
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: Other people are there maybe other people will be also
• 41:47
  Speaker 3: inspired to say something so you've just created a ripple
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: effect and what you need to do is have some
• 41:53
  Speaker 3: of those scripts in your back pocket that are natural
• 41:56
  Speaker 3: to you you know it could be what do you
• 41:58
  Speaker 3: mean by that it could be other things and there's
• 42:01
  Speaker 3: many different stories in the book regarding how people manage
• 42:05
  Speaker 3: this but just knowing what's natural for you to say
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: in that situation that means that you're not going along
• 42:11
  Speaker 3: with it and Practice it because then your mouth gets
• 42:16
  Speaker 3: used to saying the words, your ears get used to
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: hearing it, and that strengthens those neural pathways. That's the
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: thing about practice. That's really important. And why I always
• 42:28
  Speaker 3: say defiance isn't a personality trait. It's not that that
• 42:31
  Speaker 3: person is defiant because they're loud and aggressive and violent.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: That's just a myth of what defiance has to look like.
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: It can be completely different. You don't need to be superhuman.
• 42:44
  Speaker 3: You don't need to have a large personality. You can
• 42:47
  Speaker 3: be yourself and be defiant. Just practice the words that
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: are the most natural to you. This is really, really
• 42:56
  Speaker 3: good advice.
• 42:58
  Speaker 1: And I love that you're advocating this. And even in
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: therapy and coaching, Frequently, we'll do role plays of challenging
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: conversations or moments where we set boundaries. But you're saying too,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: like acts of defiance, because you're saying, especially if there
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: are repeat offenders or moments in your life where you
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: have that feeling of regret afterwards that, oh, I should
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: have done something or said something. We can actually use
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: these opportunities in a really constructive way to say, okay,
• 43:27
  Speaker 1: if I had to do that over again, because likely
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: I will be in a similar situation. here's how I
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: would like to handle that differently. Maybe write it down,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: say it out loud a few times because that's going
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: to make it easier for you to do that in
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: a moment.
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: That's great advice.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: It becomes more natural.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: And the more that we do it, then that starts
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: becoming our default. We will automatically ask, you know, what
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: do you mean by that? You know, so we'll automatically
• 43:55
  Speaker 3: be doing that rather than our previous automatic response, which
• 43:59
  Speaker 3: might be just a smile and say yes and not
• 44:02
  Speaker 3: all just remain quiet. So just having that pause and,
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: you know, those questions that's more natural to us is really,
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: really important. There's also a very nice quote, if I
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: can remember the quote, that it's often said that Bruce
• 44:21
  Speaker 3: Lee had this quote, but it was actually a Greek poet.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: And it's like, under duress, we don't rise to the
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: level of our expectations. we fall to the level of
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: our practice. And so this is what we need to do.
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: We need to practice.
• 44:37
  Speaker 2: Oh, so good.
• 44:39
  Speaker 4: So Dr.
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: Sa, on the other side of this break, I'd love
• 44:42
  Speaker 1: for you to dig a little bit more deeply into
• 44:45
  Speaker 1: how to apply some of the ideas.
• 44:47
  Speaker 4: You talk about.
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: So when we are It boots on the ground real-world
• 44:51
  Speaker 1: moments where defiance might be called for. We'll know what
• 44:54
  Speaker 1: to do and how to handle this. But I'd also
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: love to talk through some of the relational considerations that
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: we need to manage in these moments if we have
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: values around standing up for what we believe, but also
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: maintaining loving relationships with people that we care about. Is
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: that okay? Yes, absolutely. Excellent. I sat down to record
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• 47:32
  Speaker 4: Welcome back.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: We're with our very special guest, Dr. Sunita Sa.
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: She's a professor at Cornell and the author of the book, Defy.
• 47:41
  Speaker 1: Here to share her insights on how to stand up
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: in the face of injustices so that you can protect
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: yourself and people that you care about.
• 47:51
  Speaker 2: So, Dr.
• 47:52
  Speaker 1: Salt, before we roll into some of the relational considerations
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: I'm hoping we could speak to, or maybe even this
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: is part of it, you bring up some really good
• 48:02
  Speaker 1: points in your work about the difference between compliance and consent.
• 48:07
  Speaker 2: Can you unpack that for us?
• 48:10
  Speaker 4: Absolutely.
• 48:11
  Speaker 3: So, one of the things that we don't really understand
• 48:14
  Speaker 3: about is these definitions of compliance, consent, and defiance. So
• 48:19
  Speaker 3: just very quickly about defiance, since it's essential that we understand,
• 48:24
  Speaker 3: most people have a negative connotation of defiance. They think
• 48:27
  Speaker 3: it's loud, aggressive, bold. And as I've been talking about it,
• 48:32
  Speaker 3: it's actually not. My definition of defiance is simply acting
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: in accordance with your values, especially when there is pressure
• 48:40
  Speaker 3: to do otherwise. So we take something that's often seen
• 48:43
  Speaker 3: as negative and we reframe it as something positive and
• 48:47
  Speaker 3: meaningful and even post-social. Now, we also have problems sometimes
• 48:53
  Speaker 3: with the definitions of compliance and consent, and people often
• 48:56
  Speaker 3: conflate the two. They think they're interchangeable. So compliance is
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: something external. It's going along with an order, a suggestion,
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: maybe even expectations from society. It's something that's externally imposed.
• 49:11
  Speaker 3: And something that we go along with. Consent is radically different.
• 49:17
  Speaker 3: Consent is something that's coming from within. and it's coming
• 49:20
  Speaker 3: from our values. So the way that I define consent
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: or what I call your true yes in the book
• 49:26
  Speaker 3: is I take the definition of informed consent from medicine
• 49:31
  Speaker 3: and we can apply that same framework to other decisions
• 49:35
  Speaker 3: that we make in our life. So to have consent,
• 49:38
  Speaker 3: you need five elements. And this is what doctors do
• 49:41
  Speaker 3: when they're assessing patients for a medical treatment. When you're
• 49:45
  Speaker 3: giving your informed consent, do you have the capacity? So
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: do you have the mental capacity to be able to
• 49:51
  Speaker 3: make that decision? You're not under the influence of drugs
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: or alcohol or you're not too sick. So capacity is
• 49:59
  Speaker 3: the first one. The next one is knowledge. You need
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: to have accurate information about the decision you're about to make.
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: So you need to be given that information. But it's
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: not enough just to have the information. The third element
• 50:14
  Speaker 3: is understanding. You need a really good grasp of the risks,
• 50:20
  Speaker 3: the benefits, and the alternatives. Then the fourth element is
• 50:25
  Speaker 3: the freedom to say no. Because if you don't have
• 50:28
  Speaker 3: the freedom to say no, then that's merely compliance. It's
• 50:31
  Speaker 3: not consent. So you need the freedom to say no.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: So if you have just those four elements, the capacity,
• 50:37
  Speaker 3: the knowledge, the understanding, the freedom to say no, then
• 50:41
  Speaker 3: the fifth element is your authorization. It's your considered, thoroughly
• 50:47
  Speaker 3: considered authorization. That's an active expression of your values. So
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: if you want to say yes, that's your true yes.
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: That's your consent. If you want to say no, that's
• 50:59
  Speaker 3: your informed refusal, your defiance. Okay.
• 51:03
  Speaker 1: And so how does this concept and awareness of what
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: consent really is help us make better decisions when it
• 51:10
  Speaker 1: comes to moments where we can defy or comply?
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: It's really useful to have because we often think about
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: defiance as being a knee-jerk reaction, like an emotion coming up.
• 51:22
  Speaker 3: But it requires the same five elements as consent requires.
• 51:26
  Speaker 3: So we need to make sure that we have particularly
• 51:29
  Speaker 3: the knowledge and the understanding, right? Because often if we're
• 51:33
  Speaker 3: saying yes or no without those things, you could just say,
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: I need more information. This is why we're asking for clarity.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: So we have a good knowledge and understanding of the situation.
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: And then, yeah, the second thing is really thinking about like,
• 51:48
  Speaker 3: is our default response to comply that we're not even
• 51:51
  Speaker 3: thinking about whether we have all of those elements because
• 51:54
  Speaker 3: we're so worried about the other person and our relationship
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: perhaps with the other person that we're just going to
• 52:00
  Speaker 3: say yes because that's become automatic or we've been socialized
• 52:03
  Speaker 3: to say yes and please others. And we're not really
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: thinking through, does saying yes here compromise any of my values?
• 52:11
  Speaker 3: And that is a question that we can ask. Okay.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: Now that makes a lot of sense. And so, you know,
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: when we, agree with, go along, say yes to something,
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: it really does need to be a thoughtful decision. And
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: you've just provided a beautiful framework.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: Do I have enough information to know what I'm saying? Yes, too.
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: Like, what does that even mean? But at the same time,
• 52:34
  Speaker 1: if I am refusing something, like on what is that based?
• 52:38
  Speaker 1: And to use that same framework to be able to
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: make good decisions there as well.
• 52:42
  Speaker 2: Particularly, I'm guessing this would not be.
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: A knee jerk, you know, I need to do something
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: in the moment, but I'm almost imagining like that workplace
• 52:51
  Speaker 1: situation or if there are looping patterns in a relationship
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: that keep coming up over and over again, as this
• 52:58
  Speaker 1: can help you, I would think, make a decision one
• 53:02
  Speaker 1: way or the other that you feel really good about.
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: Is that, yeah.
• 53:06
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: So both your true yes, you know, are coming from
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: within and they're coming from our deeply held values. Compliance
• 53:14
  Speaker 3: is external. So we're going along with something. I do
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: have a concept I call conscious compliance, where all the
• 53:20
  Speaker 3: elements are present. We do have understanding and we have
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: the knowledge and understanding. We perhaps maybe have the freedom
• 53:27
  Speaker 3: to say no, but it's going to be very costly.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: So it's going back to that defiance compass where, oh,
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: I'm going to have to consciously comply. But the key
• 53:36
  Speaker 3: word is conscious, right? We know that we're doing it.
• 53:39
  Speaker 3: We'd rather be doing something else, but we're going to
• 53:42
  Speaker 3: go along with it for now. Until it's safer or
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: more effective to defy later.
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: Absolutely. The math, you know, tips it one direction or
• 53:50
  Speaker 2: the other.
• 53:51
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: Now, before I let you go, Dr. Sa, I must
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: get your thoughts on a situation that, in my mind,
• 54:00
  Speaker 1: can be complex. And so where I'm coming at this
• 54:04
  Speaker 1: as a psychologist, marriage and family therapist, working with people
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: a lot around relational issues.
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: Okay.
• 54:11
  Speaker 1: One of the things that I have seen emerge more
• 54:14
  Speaker 1: prominently in our culture for understandable reasons, but particularly over
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: the last few years, is that people can have very strong,
• 54:23
  Speaker 1: well-developed opinions that might be values based on the way
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: things should be. It could be attached to political belief systems.
• 54:34
  Speaker 1: I mean, I've seen people get into it around Is
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: this a good idea or not? There's a lot of
• 54:40
  Speaker 1: stuff to fight about these days, right? And a lot
• 54:43
  Speaker 1: of the stuff feels like it is deeply connected to
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: core values. I believe in the environment. Therefore, I will
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: defy anybody who's into AI pills and I'm going to
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: tell them how I feel. But what I see in
• 54:57
  Speaker 1: practice is that sometimes what can feel like defiance is
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: oftentimes obstructing a pathway to understanding other people's perspective that,
• 55:15
  Speaker 1: you know, nobody's actually trying to do anything to you
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: right now, but there is a combativeness that can get
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: in the way of relationships. And so I had the
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: great pleasure of speaking with one of my personal heroes, Dr.
• 55:29
  Speaker 1: Bill Doherty on this podcast about how even, you know,
• 55:33
  Speaker 1: holding different political beliefs or, you know, how should the
• 55:37
  Speaker 1: world work kind of stances can create these deep, deep
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: divides and relationships to the point where people are cutting
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: each other off. And he is part of a nonprofit
• 55:47
  Speaker 1: movement that I have so much respect for called Braver Angels.
• 55:50
  Speaker 1: One of the core missions is to actually put people
• 55:53
  Speaker 1: with different points of view into a room and help
• 55:56
  Speaker 1: them have conversations, not for the purpose of changing anybody's mind,
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: of course, but For the purpose of just starting to
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: generate understanding of where the other person is coming from,
• 56:07
  Speaker 1: which I believe is so important in this day and age.
• 56:11
  Speaker 1: But so what would you say to someone who has
• 56:15
  Speaker 1: done a lot of values alignment work, and this is
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: what I stand for, but feels now that it is
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: intolerable to be in a relationship with someone who has
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: a different set of values or values?
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: What do you do with that?
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: Yeah, absolutely.
• 56:33
  Speaker 3: We want to be aligned in values and we often
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: surround ourselves with people who have similar values to us.
• 56:42
  Speaker 3: So when we come across people who have different values,
• 56:46
  Speaker 3: then that knowledge and understanding becomes very important. And having
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: conversations to understand is really essential.
• 56:55
  Speaker 1: But I also want to say, so maybe I also
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: didn't state this, is that.
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: What I have seen is.
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: That people feel that in order to be congruent with
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: their values and stand up for what they believe, they
• 57:12
  Speaker 1: need to have a fairly aggressive stance or even reject people,
• 57:16
  Speaker 1: like actively reject people who are different.
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: Than them, I guess.
• 57:20
  Speaker 1: And it feels, I think, at the moment like I
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: am defying what this person stands for, but that in
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: reality it's.
• 57:27
  Speaker 4: Okay, sorry.
• 57:28
  Speaker 2: I just wanted to say that.
• 57:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, a bit.
• 57:30
  Speaker 3: I think there's a few things that's going on here.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: So first of all, when I talk about compliance and
• 57:35
  Speaker 3: defiance and consent, it's to do with your individual actions.
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: It's not about changing anybody else's mind. It's not about
• 57:43
  Speaker 3: when I say, let's speak up in this meeting. Am
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: I doing it with the hopes of educating the other person?
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: I'm actually doing it as how do we change the situation?
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: Maybe we can a little bit, right? But maybe we can't.
• 57:59
  Speaker 3: We can't control what the other person thinks. And there's
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: a few things here in terms of the values that
• 58:07
  Speaker 3: we're talking about. If we start talking about moral convictions,
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: they can feel very, very strong. So people can... Moral
• 58:16
  Speaker 3: convictions are such that we have such an understanding of
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: our belief that... like maybe abortion is wrong or abortion
• 58:26
  Speaker 3: is right or that homosexuality is wrong or homosexuality is right,
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: we can have such strong beliefs on this that we
• 58:33
  Speaker 3: view it as a fact. And because we view it
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: as a fact, we're right and somebody else is wrong.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: And this can lead to this aggression that I need
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: to stand by what.
• 58:44
  Speaker 4: I believe in.
• 58:45
  Speaker 3: I'm going back to values as not being about any
• 58:49
  Speaker 3: kind of, Objective fact, which actually turns out to be subjective, right?
• 58:54
  Speaker 3: Some people will say yes, some people will say no,
• 58:57
  Speaker 3: some people will be on the fence. I'm going back
• 59:00
  Speaker 3: to how is it you want to act, right? Do
• 59:03
  Speaker 3: you want to act with compassion? Is that an important
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: value to you as how we treat other people? Do
• 59:08
  Speaker 3: you want to act with integrity? do you have benevolence
• 59:11
  Speaker 3: what are those values that this is how we should
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: be not that it's different with some people versus other
• 59:18
  Speaker 3: people but what are our values and maybe people will
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: differ in those values too you know no doubt that
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: they will but we need to act in alignment with
• 59:27
  Speaker 3: what's right to us And it's not about that. If
• 59:31
  Speaker 3: we do defiance, if we think of defiance as trying
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: to alter somebody else's mind or tell them that they're wrong,
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: it often comes to what I call false defiance, that
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: it's done for performative reasons. This is not to get
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: more likes on social media or to aggressively cut someone
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: out or cancel them. It could be that you want
• 59:55
  Speaker 3: to say something at the dinner table if there's a
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: sexist or racist remark, but there's ways of doing it
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: that I'm not confrontational. And really false defiance, it might
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: look like the real thing. It might be loud and confrontational,
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: but unless it's coming from our core values, the way
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 3: I define values, it isn't real in that sense. Yes, like,
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: you know, an example could be even going to attend
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: a political protest because all your friends are going and
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: not because you care about that court, right? Or confronting
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: another person on social media whose politics you disagree with.
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 3: It's not out of really a genuine desire to change
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: their mind because social media is not a platform to
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 3: really do that.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 4: It could be the Braver.
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: Angels platform that might be better. But if you're doing that,
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: that's simply to score likes and clout. I would call
• 1:00:46
  Speaker 3: that false defiance, also sort of getting swept up in
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: the crowd. Here's another way to think about it as
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: well in terms of some of the systems you use, right?
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 3: So there is a term that is often applied to children,
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: like oppositional defiant disorder.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 4: And it has defiant in there.
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: That's not seen as a positive thing. It's seen as
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: a negative thing. I think the key word there is oppositional.
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: So we've all experienced this with, if you have kids, right,
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 3: with toddlers or even teenagers, right? My teenager went through
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 3: a particular phase of doing the exact opposite of what
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: I wanted him to do. And I remember it very
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 3: clearly that, you know, after school, he would be playing
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: some video games and I would be like, are you
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: going to do your homework? And then he would be Well,
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: I was going to do my homework, but now that
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: you've told me to.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: Literally, my kid said, well, I would have, but then
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: you told me to and now I don't want to anymore.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 4: Oh, yes, exactly. What is that? Oh, my God.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: So it's definitely oppositional. But yeah, if we think about
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 3: what's really going on here, if they are doing the
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 3: exact opposite of what you're asking them to do, then
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: they're actually listening very intently to what you want. And
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 3: that is something that's coming from the outside. It's actually
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: being very compliant, just in opposition. So this is what
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 3: I call false defiance. It looks like defiance. It's just
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: oppositional and it's a reaction to what you want. So
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 3: is it consent, how I mentioned, deeply with the held value?
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: No.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: Is it defiance also the five elements and deeply held value? No,
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: it's not coming from internal. It's coming from external. So
• 1:02:31
  Speaker 3: that is false defiance. And we need to be very
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: careful about it because sometimes it can, like this confrontational, loud,
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: aggressive opposition can seem like true defiance, but it's actually
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 3: false if it's not coming from your values, the way
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 3: that I'm defining what values are and distinguishing from moral conviction.
• 1:02:51
  Speaker 3: Which can be very dangerous. Like if we have very
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: strong moral convictions, it can get to a point of
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 3: the means justify the end. And we start crossing lines
• 1:03:01
  Speaker 3: that we feel justified to do because we are. We're
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 3: left with rationalizations for why they were the right thing
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 3: to do. And that's why it's really important to do
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: that values exercise to begin with. And actually think about
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: what is a line that I will not cross. This
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 3: is some of the work I'm doing actually with high
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: school students and with middle school students in order. It's
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: around the Defiance Compass is to really adapt that for
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: younger audiences and other types of audiences. You know, what
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 3: is a line that I will not cross? What is
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: something that I've regretted doing? that I wish I would
• 1:03:39
  Speaker 3: have behaved differently. So really getting people to connect with
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 3: their values is really important. And yes, schools are asking
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: for this, domestic violence, organizations, cults. How do we get
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 3: back our agency? This is all about our agency and
• 1:03:56
  Speaker 3: the freedom to act in alignment with what we value.
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 1: This is an important discussion and one that needs to
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 1: be had far and wide because I think what you're
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 1: also opening the door to is how difficult it can
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: be to sort through what is a values aligned stance
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 1: versus what is a moral conviction versus what is a
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 1: strong opinion. And I also just want to say something
• 1:04:23
  Speaker 1: that may be very shocking, but I think needs to
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: be said in this moment. So as a psychologist, I
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: will tell you that every person who has done something
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: that profoundly cruel, inhumane, illegal, criminal even, if there's any
• 1:04:43
  Speaker 1: forethought at all, like not a heat of the moment situation,
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 1: they had very well-developed reasons that supported their justification for
• 1:04:53
  Speaker 1: whatever behavior.
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 2: They engaged in.
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 1: And it can be extremely difficult to get visibility into
• 1:05:01
  Speaker 1: when we are doing that ourselves. And so to your point, Dr. Saw,
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 1: to be able to say, not just what I'm telling
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 1: myself I believe, I mean, certainly to stay connected with values,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 1: but like when I engage in this action, what value
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: am I actually expressing? And so I don't know if
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 1: we had a 13-year-old kid, they might say, well, I'm
• 1:05:19
  Speaker 1: expressing my value of independence, right, against your jurisdiction over
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 1: telling me what to do versus, you know, I think
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 1: another framework for this is that there's a rupture to
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: this relationship that's happening right now. And to be able
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 1: to kind of take a 30,000-foot view and say, what
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 1: am I actually doing? What is happening when I take
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 1: this stance and behave in this way? I am damaging
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: a relationship. I am damaging trust. I am damaging my
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 1: value of curiosity and connection, perhaps, right? And to open
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 1: up options for there being a number of ways to
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 1: handle this.
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 4: And going back to one.
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 1: Of your beautiful questions from that, the compass exercise, you
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 1: walked us through that, that what kind of person am I?
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 3: People like me.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: Do this, right? Uh-huh.
• 1:06:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah. What does a person like me do in a
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 3: situation like this? And this is such a powerful question
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 3: on like that relationship level that you said, but also
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: on a societal level, right? That, you know, like if
• 1:06:21
  Speaker 3: you think about it, if we think about what happened,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 3: you know, with the Nazis in World War II, You
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 3: can identify the people that committed the crimes and did
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: all those illegal things, the things that you were saying,
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 3: as just a very small percentage of the population. It
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 3: was the 90% of bystanders that didn't do anything that
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 3: really contributed as well. And, you know, we might not
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: be the type of person. too much, right? We might
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: not be the type of person to protest in a
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: particular way. And this is what my work is about, right?
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: It's like, especially for those of us who are socialized
• 1:06:58
  Speaker 3: to be compliant, have a self-concept of that. We don't
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: need to do that. We can all help in different ways.
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 3: We can help by, you know, even making a cup
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: of tea for someone. We can help by writing a letter.
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 3: We can help by making a phone call. In situations
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: where we think values are being compromised, that's what we
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: can do. And we can all do it in a
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: way that we are comfortable with and that aligns with
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 3: something that's right for us. So that's why it goes
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 3: from that individual to organizations and to society. We're asking
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: ourselves the same questions and connecting with the same values.
• 1:07:36
  Speaker 3: What does a person like me do in a situation
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 3: such as this?
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 1: Well, we're with do being the operant word here. I mean,
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 1: I think that's my big takeaway.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, Dr.
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: Saul, we've talked about so many different things today, but
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: that defiance, that is a verb that is connected to
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: an action and that can look like so many different things.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for spending this time with us today.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: These are such important ideas and ones that we all
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 1: need to be thinking about. And I know listeners of
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: this are like, I would like to hear more. And
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: so tell us where people can find your book, your
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: TED Talks now and anything else.
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 2: You have going on?
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 3: Oh, absolutely. So you can find a lot of information
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: on my website, which is at sunitasah.com. So that's S-U-N,
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: like the sun in the sky, S-U-N-I-T-A-S-A-H.com. And you can
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 3: find my newsletter where I write about some of these
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 3: things on Substack. It's called Defiant by Design. And also,
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 3: Books are sold wherever books are sold. It's called Defy.
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 3: The paperback edition is How to Speak Up When It Matters.
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 3: And the TEDx talks, we can link hopefully on your
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 3: show notes. And yes, there's two. The first one was
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: called Why Do We Stay Silent in Uncomfortable Situations? That
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 3: came out last year. I'm a one that came out
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: at the beginning of July, which is a lot about
• 1:09:03
  Speaker 3: the Defiance Compass, and people want to look at that
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 3: in a bit more detail, is how to stand up
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 3: for yourself and others.
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: Amazing. Well, thank you again so much for your time today.
• 1:09:13
  Speaker 2: Fascinating conversation.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: Thank you so much. It's wonderful to be here again.
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  Speaker 3: Thank you for inviting me back. Thank you so much.
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