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Body Bags With Joseph Scott Morgan: Idaho Student Murders Part 3 Reviewing The Affidavit - Case Updates · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:08
  Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan, Hello, my friends, coming to
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: you a little bit different today, actually in a hotel
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: room in Los Angeles, getting ready to do an episode
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: of Doctor Phil. We need to talk about the affidavit today.
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: Talk about some of the forensic aspects here, talk about
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: what the police might be looking for, what they might have,
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: and what is yet to be uncovered. I'm Joseph Scott
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Morgan and this is Body Bags. Guys. I have been
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: on more media outlets than I can count over the
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: past I don't know, six weeks. I am so incredibly
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: grateful that I have got my friend, who I consider
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: one of my best friends in the world, Jackie Howard,
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: the executive producer for Nancy Grace's Crime Stories. Jackie is
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: joining me right now. She's in her studio. I'm here
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: in La Jackie. Wow, do we have a lot of
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: information to go through? I don't know. I don't know
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: that I actually thought that we would get this much
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: out of this nineteen page document that dropped, but it
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: landed in our laps, and boy, is it really causing
• 1:37
  Speaker 1: a lot of people to stop and think and reconsider
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: a lot of positions. I think it's something that you
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: and I should have a chat about today. What do
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: you think? Well, I think that you started out with
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: some wonderful browning points there, Joe. So thanks, But yes,
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of information to unfold. The first thing
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I want to talk about, though, is how much do
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: you think that the police learned that was not included
• 2:01
  Speaker 1: in what was released? Well, I think you have to
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: start off at the baseline. You know, they only require
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: as much as is needed to get this thing before
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: a judge to draw up and arrest warrant. Okay, so
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: they're they're not They are not revealing everything that they have.
• 2:21
  Speaker 1: Trust me, this is only the tip of the iceberg.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: And boy, what a volume of information that they have
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: presented us with. We've got everything from DNA, We've got
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: we've got pings relative to the movement of Brian Coberger
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: and his cell phone. We've got CCTV footage. The list
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: goes on and on. We've got trace evidence. You know
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: when you think about footprints and all of these sorts
• 2:50
  Speaker 1: of things that have that have come to light, and
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: probably for me what is most defining is we've sheath, Jackie,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: We've got a knife sheath. If memory serves me right.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: You called that saying if they can find that sheath,
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: they're set with DNA, and you obviously were right. So
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: the DNA that was found was found one spot on
• 3:18
  Speaker 1: that knife sheath. It was akbar as we know I've
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: been talking about for quite some time now, but the
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: sheath DNA was found in one spot on the clip,
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: the snap clip. I'm wondering, do we know where that
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: DNA came from? Was it blood DNA or is it
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: just skin cell DNA? Hard to say. It truly is
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: hard to say, and we don't have enough in from
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: We do know that there is a specific linkage to
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: the suspect, and that's important, at least at this juncture.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: We will find out more what the sourcing of that
• 3:56
  Speaker 1: DNA is. There are many people that have openly opined
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: that this is probably going to be touched DNA, and
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: we've talked about touch DNA before on bodybacks. But just
• 4:06
  Speaker 1: kind of revisit this very very briefly. We sluf thousands
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: and thousands of skin cells, and the reason you sluft
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: them is that they're dead and so the DNA strand
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: or that it's just a partial of a strand that's
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: contained within what's referred to as touch DNA. So when
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: you find that bit of DNA, you have to go
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: back into lab and kind of reconstruct a DNA. But
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: it was sufficient enough to the task that when they
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: did recover the DNA, they were able to develop a
• 4:48
  Speaker 1: profile that eventually, you know, within I don't know ninety
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: nine point nine nine nine eight, I think percentage points
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: is likely hel and that's big. But yeah, that that
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: that gives us an idea that he actually had contact.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: He had physical contact with a sheath. Some people say, ah, well,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: you know it doesn't matter. That could come from anywhere. Okay,
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: that's fine. Yeah, I'll give you that. It could. It could.
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: He could have picked it up. I've heard some people
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: say he could have picked it up at a knife
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: and gun show and just handle the thing. And they're
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: calling it a button snap is actually what they're calling it.
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: And then he maybe he actuated the button snap, flicking
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: it back and forth, just said Okay, that's a starting spot,
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: that's not the ending spot, okay, and that's important here. Well,
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: that was my question because let me let me jump
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: in on it. That was my question. If this knife
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: sheath belonged to Brian Hoberger. Wouldn't they have found his
• 5:48
  Speaker 1: DNA on more spots than just that clip? Possibly, But
• 5:55
  Speaker 1: could he have worn gloves and taking those gloves off,
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: or could he have manipulated that knife sheath prior to
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: putting gloves on, wipe down the rest of the knife sheath,
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: but forgot to wipe off that specific area. Do you
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: see there's so many there's so many possibilities here that
• 6:15
  Speaker 1: we don't know the dynamic of it. We don't know
• 6:18
  Speaker 1: how much he's handled the scene. We don't know if
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: the sheath is new, if this is something he just
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: went out and picked up and bought. Why isn't there
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: other people's DNA on the scene. Maybe there are unknowns
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: on here. We never know at this point because they
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: haven't given us that information. You know, you have to
• 6:35
  Speaker 1: figure if he let's just say he went to a
• 6:37
  Speaker 1: stall at a gun show and he bought this from somebody. Well,
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: just think about the person that was selling it to him,
• 6:44
  Speaker 1: had to handle the thing and would hand it over
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: to him, would have manipulated it in some way. Well,
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: they don't say anything about unknowns that might be on
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the exterior of the sheath. They only talk about that
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: one linkage that goes back to the accused that I
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: think that that's significant here. And again, we don't know
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: what the sourcing of the DNA is. You know, we
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: I'd mentioned touch DNA. You know, you can get DNA
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: that derives from you know, a multiple multiple sources. You know,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: we can have sweat, you can get saliva, you can
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: get blood among other things you know that emanate from
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: our body essentially, and so we don't know specifically what
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: the source is at this particular time. And I think
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: another big question is is it possible that there might
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: be blood on the sheath? Is it possible? Yeah, that
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: it is possible that there could be blood, and it
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: might not necessarily be his blood, the accused. It might
• 7:47
  Speaker 1: be the victim's blood because it was laying there in
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: the bed. It wasn't laying on the floor, according to
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: what they're saying. It was laying there in the bed,
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: So that that's kind of interesting as well. Was there
• 7:59
  Speaker 1: any other kind of answer evidence that was found on
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: that sheath from any of the victims into bed now, hair,
• 8:05
  Speaker 1: any kind of body fluids from them, including blood, anything
• 8:08
  Speaker 1: that might be linkage to tie that back. It's not
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: just one person that you're considering when you're looking at
• 8:16
  Speaker 1: unknown sample. You consider everybody that's kind of in the
• 8:20
  Speaker 1: orbit of this environment at this particular time, and all
• 8:24
  Speaker 1: of these are going to be key. They will develop
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: profiles on all of these people moving forward. They're also
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: going to talk about anybody that may have handled this
• 8:35
  Speaker 1: sheath prior to Coburger having purchased it, if it was
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: a recent purchase, for instance, and they will develop those
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: as well if they find those unknown sources, and they'll
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: try to track those down as well. Again, what's the
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: beauty of this, Jackie is the fact that if you
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: have all of these other people that have touched it,
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: it's not just a matter of him physically touching the
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: knife and it being there at the scene. If you
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: have unknown DNA that you can tie back to other
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: people that are in his peripheral past, you can kind
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: of track the movement of that knife through time. You know,
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: if he went to purchase this thing, you know you
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: can find it famously. You know, there's been a number
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: of cases, for instance, involving sexual assault, where there be
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: a pair of underwear and you will actually find touch
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: DNA on the surface of a package of a previously
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: packaged pair of underwear that was packaged in maybe Southeast
• 9:38
  Speaker 1: Asia somewhere, and you'll find somebody's DNA on it that
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: handled it in a factory. Just let that sink in
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: just for a second. So the possibilities here are kind
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: of mind blowing when you think about it. What is
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: the volume of DNA that we're talking about here, and
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: how much would have been needed to match up with
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: the evidence taken from his Pennsylvania home. Well, I think
• 10:02
  Speaker 1: that that evidence from the Pennsylvania home is probably going
• 10:09
  Speaker 1: to be very rich if you consider that. Let's just
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: think about it. If you're talking about napkins, if you're
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: talking about like cups that he may have placed to
• 10:21
  Speaker 1: his lips, you know, anything that would be an intimate
• 10:26
  Speaker 1: contact with him. And when you think about a trash
• 10:28
  Speaker 1: bag and how we discard things, you know, in trashbags,
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: we're throwing stuff away and it's all kind of getting
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: jumbled up in there. There will be quite a number
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: of things that will come back to him. Certainly, certainly
• 10:42
  Speaker 1: there will be things in there that will come back
• 10:44
  Speaker 1: to his familial grouping. And again that's significant, right if
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: you can tie that one bit of DNA that they
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: found on this button snap back to this home all
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: the way over two thousand miles away in Pennsylvania, in Poconos. Well,
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: that's that's that's a that's a big piece of circumstantial slash,
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: physical evidence that you have there. If you're going to
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: move forward with this and go to court with it,
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: you know, how how can you explain that away? And
• 11:15
  Speaker 1: it's it's very very difficult. But my question is, given
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: the amount of DNA that we are led to believe
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: they pulled off of this sheath, it seems to be
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: very very small. So does that matter? I mean, is
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: that going to give Well obviously it did, but is
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: that going to give um forensic investigators enough to say
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: with you know, beyond a reasonable doubt that they matched.
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's it's certainly more than enough. We're talking,
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: you know, at a molecular level here. That's how strong
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: the connectivity is. So it takes very little. It takes
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: very very little, Jackie, very very little. And you know,
• 11:58
  Speaker 1: let's think about you're already, okay, we're already kind of
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: a bit behind the eight ball. Would touch DNA because
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: it's not a complete strand because you know, like I said,
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: it's coming from a dead skin cell. It's slept of
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: assuming that that that it is touched DNA. Of course
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: it could be you know, a number of other things
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: as well. We don't have enough information right now, but
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: it does not require a tremendous amount of sample in
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: order to work back through this. For these DNA scientists
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: who are just incredibly brilliant and the technology they have
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: at their disposal, it's daunting when you're staring down the
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: barrel of this as a defense team. The father of
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: Kaylee Gonzolvis, has mentioned that his daughter's wounds were different
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: than the other victims, saying that she had gouges in
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: her body. I'm curious whether or not we would be
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: likely to see defensive wounds on either person that could
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: be definitively defined as they were trying to defend the
• 13:02
  Speaker 1: other person. Well well, yeah, and okay, here here's here's
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: something that you have to consider. At this point, we
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: don't know what position Mattie and Kaylee were actually in
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: in this bed. We know that they were in the
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: bed together, and to your point, you know, was was
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: one huddled over the other in a defensive posture attempting
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: to defend against any kind of strikes by the accused.
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: Is that is that what we're talking about? Or were
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: they both lyned in what would be considered quote unquote
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: a normal sleeping posture, you know, face up, facedown or
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: on their sides. You had mentioned earlier that it's it's
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: really hard I think for many of us to even
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: think that a stabbing could have taken place without one
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: person having been aware of it. You know, how how
• 13:53
  Speaker 1: do you get past that? You know, because this is
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: not like a gunshot wound, where uh, it's sudden and
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: you might have, I don't know, a pretty quick death.
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: There would have been pain associated with it. There would
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: have been an awareness at a very primal level. You know,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: you would think that a scream would have emanated a
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: reaction of some kind. I think that it would be
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: speculative at best for forensic pathologists to be able to
• 14:21
  Speaker 1: get upon the stand and say, yet this person was
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: defending the other person from you know, an aggressor. Based
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: upon the examination of the wounds and again these comments
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: that the father is making, I have a difficult time
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: kind of measuring out how much information he knows about
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: the injuries on the other victims. Has he's spoken with
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: the family members of other victims and they've described injuries
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: to him, and he's been able to kind of compare
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: and contrast, if you will. That's that's very interesting that
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: he can make that statement, you know, and he uses
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: the term gauges, and that's not something that's generally associated
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: with forensic pathology, so that that's not something that a
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: forensic pathologist or a trained corner would say. We would
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: not say, well, they have gauge marks on them. Now,
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: I think a broader, broader thought here is was he
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: able to see her remains at the funeral home? And
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: if that's the case, he could be assessing this in
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: his own in his own way, I think famously. You know,
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: he made one of the early initial comments when he
• 15:41
  Speaker 1: was given a press conference, he alluded to this interesting
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: construct where he said, I paid for that. I paid
• 15:50
  Speaker 1: for that. I didn't know what he meant by that.
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: I didn't know was he talking about the funeral. Was
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: he talking about the funeral? Did he go to the
• 15:58
  Speaker 1: funeral home prior to his daughter's body being prepared and
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: he saw the remains? So I don't know. I don't
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: know where this is kind of bubbling up from, and
• 16:08
  Speaker 1: I would I think i'd be interested in seeing what
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: the actual forensic pathologist has to say about this case
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: and about everything that's connected to it in order to,
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of assess these injuries, because look, I mean,
• 16:24
  Speaker 1: he's a dad, He's going to be very very emotional
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: over this, and I don't know what he is saying
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: and what contexts he's saying this in at the scene
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: of a death, anything, and I mean anything that is
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: particularly an indoor scene, anything that is in that residence,
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: in that structure, has value because you just never know,
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: you never know where the road is going to lead
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: from an evidentiary standpoint. With that said, I would argue,
• 17:17
  Speaker 1: I would argue that perhaps aside from the evidence that
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: the bodies contain, one of the most important things, one
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: of the most important things here are the mattresses that
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: these bodies were found upon, because you're you're going to
• 17:34
  Speaker 1: learn a lot, You're going to learn so much from
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: the surfaces of these mattresses, You're gonna learn so much
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: from perhaps the interior of these mattresses'. It is what
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: we would term an evidence rich environment. Well, I had
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: a big lightbulb go off over my head, Joe as
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: we all watched as investigators removed those mattresses. Is from
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: the hall. Those mattresses, it looked like they were inside
• 18:07
  Speaker 1: I would have I guess a huge evidence bag or
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: a mattress bag or something. But they were loaded into
• 18:15
  Speaker 1: the back of a pickup truck. And the first thing
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: that went through my head was, that's not how Joe
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: Scott would do it. Am I right, Yes, you're absolutely right.
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: And this goes back to valuable sentimental objects that were
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: released from the scene already. You know, so you're releasing
• 18:38
  Speaker 1: these items from the scene that quote unquote have sentimental
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: value whatever that means. I have no idea what that means. Okay,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: but yet you're going to keep these mattresses within the
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: environment and having not secured them to the point where
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: you're going to remove them to be analyzed. Because here
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: this is the key, pay very close attention to be
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: analyzed at the lab, you're going to leave them in there.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: I don't I don't understand that. Most of the time,
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: when you're talking about mattresses that are involved in homicides
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: like this, that are arguably blood soaked, all right, contained
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: a tremendous amount of physical evidence that's going out the
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: door to the crime lab, like immediately, like that night,
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: you're going to make arrangements. They're going to be taken away.
• 19:41
  Speaker 1: And yeah, I saw it, and my jawhead floor when
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: I was I was looking at I was thinking, wait,
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: am I am I actually seeing this? When I saw
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: the footage of a mattress being placed into the back
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: of a pickup truck. And granted it appears to be
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: it's enveloped in something, all right, in some kind of
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: of you know, container of some type of pouch if
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: you will, to get it to the crime lab. But
• 20:12
  Speaker 1: you're going to put it in the back of a
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: pickup truck. That's that's what we're doing. Now, you're not
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: going to have a van, You're not going to have
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: some other resource that you can place this thing in
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: where it's protected from the elements completely and transported to
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: the lab. At that point, I don't understand the rationale
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: behind that, because the mattresses have fragile evidence on them.
• 20:36
  Speaker 1: You know, obviously we're talking about DNA, but we're also
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: talking about things like hair and fiber, and we're also
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: talking about the potential for tool marks. So what do
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: you mean by that, Well, let's just say that these
• 20:49
  Speaker 1: mattresses were the surface that the victims were lying upon.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: If the perpetrator did not land the knife strike on
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: the body and mist and it went into the mattress,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: then now you're transferring whatever was on the surface of
• 21:12
  Speaker 1: that knife to the interior of the mattress. So now
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: you're getting down into the substratum of the mattress. So
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: you've got this very dynamic environment that these attacks are
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: occurring in. One of the biggest areas for evidence capture
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: is going to be on the surface of this mattress
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: and potentially the interior of this mattress. So I was left,
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: you know, kind of with my mouth open, you know,
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: really really trying to understand what their purpose was in
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: removing them so late and after the fact. Well, and
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: looking at the news coverage, the mattresses were not removed
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: until about a month after the last time the investigators
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: were last seen taking items out of the home for
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: that reason and then questioning them how they moved them.
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: Obviously some of these investigators or seasoned investigators, So I'm
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: sure that there was a plan. So how do you
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: think with what they encased those mattresses in How were
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: they hermetically sealed to make sure that nothing got in.
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily worried about as much getting out as
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: I am of whatever is in there being contaminated. I
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: think we need to worry about both things, both aspects
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: to this. We do need to worry about things certainly
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: getting in as you stay at jack, anything from externally
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: that could find its way inside of this pouch that
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: might be outside of what you would expect to find
• 22:53
  Speaker 1: in the pristine, interior protected scene. All right, when you
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: hit that door, have you got to think secured to
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: the point where anything on the outside is not going
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: to find its way, you know, because the environment that
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: you're exiting is reasonably protected, you know, within the apartment
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: or the house as it is. But then you go
• 23:16
  Speaker 1: into an outdoor environment with this thing, and you have
• 23:21
  Speaker 1: to make sure that it is secured. Now to the
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: other point here losing things. If it's a if it's
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: a blood stain, for instance, and it has saturated into
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: the mattress, there's high possibility that you're going to be
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: able to, you know, protect that to a great degree
• 23:40
  Speaker 1: from you know, wind and rain, because you've got this
• 23:43
  Speaker 1: this covering on it. I'm really worried about fragile evidence,
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: certainly like touch, which is if you think about touched
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: in a being the consistency of ten times more fragile
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: than say, for instance, halcoulm powder that dainty and grass aisle.
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: It can actually, you know, kind of blow away. Also
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: to be considered our hair and fiber, which you know
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: any of us, know you know that have dogs or
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: have maybe we were finding hair on ourselves. Anything that's fragile,
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: it can either attach itself to us or it can
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: be blown away, and that would be a consideration as well.
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: You don't want to lose anything that you may have
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: captured up there in a scene. I hope that that
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: they had these these pouches secured on those mattresses before
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: they brought them downstairs. All of this is not as
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: concerning to me though, as the amount of time it's
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: taken and then the conveyance in which they chose to
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: do this with. And it goes more to the way
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: the lawyers are going to look at this, and particularly
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: the sense team, because they're going to take that that
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: videography that you and I both saw and at trial
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: they'll they'll run that. They'll run that on the screen.
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: And remember they don't have to prove anything, they just
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: have to kind of implant that doubt in their minds,
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: you know. And anybody up in this region, it's ever
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: ridden around a pickup truck. They've been in the bed
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: of a pickup truck. They know the wind blows. Anybody
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: that's ever moved period, moved, Yeah, anybody. And driving down
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: the interstate, you see mattresses and furniture on the side
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: of the road. I mean that was all I could
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: think of, truly, well, almost all I can think of
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: was Holy cow. I hope they have strapped those things
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: down really well, yeah, I do too. And you know,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: just the physical security of the items themselves. It's It's
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: an odd thing, isn't it, Because you know, most of
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: the time when you're watching videography outside of crime scenes
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: and you see the you see the technicians walking out
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: of the door, they're generally carrying bags. You know, you
• 26:04
  Speaker 1: think about all the time, thousands and thousands of hours
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: of footage that we've seen, stuff that I've seen in
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: real time being out on scenes. You think about, you know,
• 26:15
  Speaker 1: paper bags that are sealed. You can see the evidence tape.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: These things are sealed with and of course there's other
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: types of packaging that you can use, and then it
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: kind of goes into the back of a van and
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: it disappears, right, it just vanishes. That's not what happened
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: with this. It comes out of the house and it's
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: then planted in the back of a pickup truck. And
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: it gives you pause, It certainly does, and just hoping
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: that they haven't lost anything here. People have asked me,
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: how would you describe the forensics in this case. The
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: one word that kind of sums it up for me
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: is dense. There's so much. There's so much on so
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: many levels that it's hard, you know, just to kind
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: of sit here and way through it all. But there's
• 27:19
  Speaker 1: certain things that we can consider, and not everything's been
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: revealed yet. Jackie. One of the things that I've learned
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: from you is how you can prove that a certain
• 27:30
  Speaker 1: gun caused a certain wound? How are you going to
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: do that with a knife, especially a knife? You've not found,
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: great question, and let's let's let's look at what we
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: do have. What we do have is a sheath, okay,
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: which I think is a monumental piece of evidence and
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: it's going to play in court when this think finally
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: goes to trial. But along with that sheath you get
• 27:59
  Speaker 1: at least the beginnings of an identification. That is, provided
• 28:04
  Speaker 1: that the knife that was carried in that sheath is
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: the same type of knife that would have come with
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: the sheath, Okay, because you can't have a sheath and
• 28:14
  Speaker 1: carry a different type of knife in it. That's certainly
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: something that must be considered, all right. So to begin with,
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: what will happen is that the authorities the investigators will contact,
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: will contact the company that manufactures this knife, in particular,
• 28:35
  Speaker 1: specifically K Bar right. And if I remember correctly, on
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: the exterior of the sheath it is stamped with USMC.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: It's got the Marine Corps emblem on it, okay, and
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: that is an identifier for that particular knife. There's probably
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: somewhere on there a serial number. So they'll contact the manufacturer,
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: will say, hey, look, we're working this case. We need
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: to get what are referred to as as knowns or
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: exemplars of this knife. So they'll ask for you maybe
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: two of these knives to come from the factory, and
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: they'll get the sheath and they'll get the knife itself,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: all right, and this is something that they're going to
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: hang on to. Now, what they can do is that
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: they can actually take a look at the injuries, at
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: the injuries that these kids sustained, and the forensic pathologists
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: will look at the knife and come up with a
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: conclusion as to whether or not this particular type of
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: knife can generate this injury. Now, if you want to
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: take it a step further, if there are any marks
• 29:49
  Speaker 1: on any of the skeletal bodies within these remains, and
• 29:56
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about ribs, sternam spine, collar bone, any of
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: these areas, there is a potential that the samples of
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: these injured areas have been retained. This happens with great
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: frequency at autopsy. So you if there's what's referred to
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: as an insulted piece of bone, that piece of bone
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: would be removed from the body and it would be
• 30:23
  Speaker 1: retained by the crime lab or by theme. And once
• 30:26
  Speaker 1: you get that knife or a knife similar to that,
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: you will ask a tool mark expert at the crime lab,
• 30:34
  Speaker 1: maybe at the state crime lab, maybe with the FBI
• 30:37
  Speaker 1: to do a comparison. Give you, give us an idea,
• 30:41
  Speaker 1: what's your opinion here? Looking at this microscopically, at this
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: injury on the bone. Can you look at this knife
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: and say that this knife generated this injury and they
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: might can you know, they'll come up with an opinion
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: about it, you know, and a lot goes into it.
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: You can talk about the shape of the blade along
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: the long axis. All of these blades are unique to
• 31:02
  Speaker 1: the manufacturer. Those are things that they will explore. Now,
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: we don't have the actual knife to compare at this time,
• 31:09
  Speaker 1: not saying it's not going to make an appearance, but
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: in my experience with knife injuries, it's important to consider
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: that depended upon the quality of the blade and the
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: metal and the way it's forged is created, this type
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: of blade might chip. Okay, it might chip, and if
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: it chips, many times it'll chip within the body, particularly
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: if it's striking bony areas. You say, well, what can
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: you do with that? Well, before an autopsy is conducted,
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: one of the things that is done is you do
• 31:54
  Speaker 1: what is called an AP and a lateral X ray
• 31:58
  Speaker 1: of the body. AP means if anybody that's listening, you've
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: been to the docks office and they make you stand
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: to get a chest X ray and they make you
• 32:07
  Speaker 1: stand and put your shoulders to the wall. Um, they're
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: taking a chest X ray. That's an ap that's kind
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: of an overall view from that perspective, and then they
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: do a lateral you know, when you're in the X
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: ray room, they make you turn and profile and they
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: shoot you from that perspective. Well, that's a lateral and
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: so what do you do with those two two X rays. Well,
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: you look at them before you do the autopsy and
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: you say, Okay, anatomically, if I'm looking at this at
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: this image and I see a little metal storm right here,
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: it might be just to the right of the mid line,
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: maybe adjacent to the left upper lobe of the left lung, Okay,
• 32:49
  Speaker 1: then you flip it and you look at the lateral
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: perspective and you can get an idea of depth. So
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: you're not going in blind. The key is can you
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: can you find mind? Can you find that metallic body
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: and retrieve it? And if you can't. If you can't,
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: there's an off chance that you can submit that to
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: the crime lab and they could do a metallurgical analysis
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: on that. And very simple terms, what that means is
• 33:19
  Speaker 1: that that item has a specific chemical signature that is
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: unique to that manufacturer. You know how that blade is forged.
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: If it's is an amalgam of various different types of metal,
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: you know, how do they fold it in and all
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: those sorts of things, And that's that's kind of a
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: chemical signature. Additionally, what happens with knife wounds, and again
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: we don't have the knife, and we don't know at
• 33:45
  Speaker 1: this point, but many times, with sharp force injuries, the
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: tip of the knife, the very point of it will
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: actually break off and it will lodge, It will lodge
• 33:56
  Speaker 1: in the body. I've seen this happen any number of times,
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: and most of the time it goes back to the
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: structural integrity of the knife as it applies to the
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: quality of the manufacturer, you know how they make these things.
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: And secondly, the age of the blade. You know, how
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: old is this blade? And then how much stress has
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: the blade been put under. Well, let's think about what
• 34:19
  Speaker 1: we're talking about here, right, We're talking about four victims,
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: Jackie four. All right, This knife, I think, just from
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: a structural standpoint, has been involved in very in a
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: very intense, a very intense attack. So the more and
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: more these victims are stabbed, it would stand a reason
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: that the structural integrity of the blade could begin to
• 34:48
  Speaker 1: break down. People don't think about. You know, every time
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: you use a blade, say in your kitchen, to cut
• 34:54
  Speaker 1: something with that blade, even though you may have just sharpened,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: it is not as sharp as it was before you
• 35:00
  Speaker 1: used it. And you keep that progression up without sharpening
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: the blade, it blunts the blade. And as the blade
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: gets blunted and you're still using the same amount of force,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: you put stress on those edges and it can begin
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: to break down. It'll chip, it'll chip, and sometimes those
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: tips will break off. I just hope that they did
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: full body X rays prior to doing the autopsy. Let's
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: see if for once I know more than you do, Joe.
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: Not likely, but let's see. Come on, do you know
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: where the name Kbar came from? I do not who? Okay,
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: all right, let me let me enjoy it this moment.
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: So the name Kabar came from the company that manufactured
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: these knives was Union Cutlery. And the name Kabar reportedly
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: is derived from a story of a man who went
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: toe to toe with a bear. His rifle didn't kill,
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: it didn't inflict enough damage, and he went hand to
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: hand and finished off the bear with his knife from
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: Union cutlery. Hence the name k a bar came from
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: kill a bear. Wow, I had no idea. And plus,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: you're originally from East Tennessee, so you guys would pronounce
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: bar like that, bear like that, right, So yeah, good
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: country folks would have said bar. Well, that's that's actually
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: kind of fascinating. I had to know. So I went
• 36:31
  Speaker 1: and I went and looked it up. And this is
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: coming from I'm getting this from the website Exquisite Knives
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: dot com. Well, you know, I would believe that it's
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: probably do you know that our marines and our sailors
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: and actually our coasties have carried k bars for a
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: long time. Of course, the sailors and the coasties have
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: a different utility for him. They'll you know, do work
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: on decks and that sort of thing, cut rope and
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: and you know, and do maintenance for marine corps. We
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: know what the Marine corps likes to use their k
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: bars for. And so it's a and that's who it's
• 37:05
  Speaker 1: most closely associated with. I think one last thing that
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: I want to get your take on is the footprint
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: that was left outside the surviving roommates door. Yeah, what's
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: that going to give us a lot? And not many
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: people are talking about it. I haven't really talked about
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: it a lot, but I think that it's significant. And
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: I'm kind of unclear based upon the affidavit because they
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: used they used an agent a Meato blue. That is
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: said that again, a Meato blue, and it is it's
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: used it. It's a it binds with protein and it
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: binds with protein in blood. And so you'll use it
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: to lift latent prints with all right, or two let's
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: say not lift, let's say document. Latent prints and latent
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: prince can either be handprints palm prints, but it can
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: actually also be footprints. And in this case that's how
• 38:12
  Speaker 1: they recognize this. They were applying this agent to the
• 38:15
  Speaker 1: floor and they came up with this analysis from the
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: scene and they established that this print, this print was
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: not only did they say what the print was, as
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: far as the shape, they used the term diamond, I think, Jackie.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: They came back with the manufacturer and this is um
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: it's a van and for those that don't know, it
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: is a skatershoe For those that are not familiar. If
• 38:48
  Speaker 1: you're familiar with the movie Fast Fast Times at Ridgemont High.
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: There's a famous scene where Sean Penn takes pair of
• 38:56
  Speaker 1: vans and he takes it and he slaps itself and
• 39:00
  Speaker 1: the skull with it and says, hey, you know what
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: that is. That's my skull. And if you reflect, that's
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: a pair of vans. That's what those are. They just
• 39:06
  Speaker 1: kind of slip on. They look like deck shoes really,
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: but they're they're used for skating, they do. But why
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: is that significant? Well, it's significant. You know, we talk
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: a lot about DNA and you know the trace evidence,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: but you know, when you get these manufacturer connections as well,
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: one of the questions, I think that it's really important.
• 39:30
  Speaker 1: I know that these guys are doing their due diligence
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: and asking these questions. Very simply put, did the suspect
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: own pair of vans? That seems very simplistic, but you
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: got to start somewhere right, Well, if he owned a
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: pair of vans, did he own this type of pair
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: of vans where it has this particular pattern? And also,
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know how robust this print was that they
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: had raised, but here's a very interesting aspect. If it
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: was significant enough that print that was left behind, you
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: might could tell something about the wear pattern. And when
• 40:11
  Speaker 1: I say wear pattern, I'm talking about maybe how old
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: the shoes were. Was it was it kind of a
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: faint kind of print? Was it something that looks like
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: it was generated from something that was worn down? Think
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: about a pencil within a racer. You know how the
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: eraser on a brand new pencil will look, you know,
• 40:27
  Speaker 1: like it'll have all the little curves on, it will
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: be perfectly round on the side. And but yeah, after
• 40:33
  Speaker 1: you use it for a while, you wear if you
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: wear it down, it has a completely different appearance to
• 40:38
  Speaker 1: it's the same thing. And also another thing that you
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: can analyze here is is perhaps if this how they step?
• 40:47
  Speaker 1: Do they pronate, do they supernate? You know? What? Do
• 40:51
  Speaker 1: they do they heal strike? Well, it all depends on
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: do they flex their feet in? Do they walk kind
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: of on the arch of their foot? Yeah? Well yeah,
• 41:02
  Speaker 1: some people used to use term not need you know,
• 41:05
  Speaker 1: you roll your feet in and you strike on the
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: the inter portionary foot or do you do you say,
• 41:11
  Speaker 1: list more to the outer edges of your foot or
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: kind of roll your feet out when you walk? And
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: then how are you a heel striker? Are you a
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: tow striker when you're walking or do you just shuffle?
• 41:22
  Speaker 1: Do you like plant your feet, you know, straight up
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: and down, almost like a piston. And you know, these
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: people that do this, this shoe analysis, are amazing people,
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: and they don't get a lot of credit because it's
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: a very it's a very fine science. There's a bit
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: of art involved in it too. But that footprint is
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: very significant, at least to my way of thinking. And
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: I'd have to ask if they raise the print with
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: something this agent that binds with the proteins in blood,
• 41:53
  Speaker 1: are we left to believe that this is a bloody
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: shoe print. I'm just as Scott Morgan and this is
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: body bags