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BPS 362: How Indie Films Can Use The Mandalorian Virtual Production Tech with Rene Amador · Bulletproof Screenwriting™ Podcast

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You are listening to the IFH podcast Network. For more amazing filmmaking and screenwriting
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podcasts, just go to ifahpodcastnetwork dot com. Welcome to the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast,
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Episode number three sixty two. Don't work on your job, work on
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yourself. Make yourself much more valuable to the marketplace. Jim Rohan broadcasting from
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a dark, windowless room in Hollywood when we really should be working on that
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next draft. It's the Bulletproof Screenwriting Podcast, showing you the craft and business
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of screenwriting while teaching you how to make your screenplay bulletproof. And here's your
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host, Alex Ferrari. Welcome, Welcome to another episode of the Bulletproof Screenwriting
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Podcast. I am your humble host Alex Ferrari. Now, today's show is
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sponsored by Bulletproof script Coverage. Now. Unlike other script coverage services, Bulletproof
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Script Coverage actually focuses on the kind of project you are and the goals of
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the project you are, So we actually break it down by three categories,
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micro budget, indie film, market and studio film. There's no reason to
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get coverage from a reader that's used to reading tempole movies when your movie is
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Brothers, The Blacklist, and many many more. So if you need your
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screenplay or TV script covered by professional readers, head on over to covermiscreenplay dot
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com. Now, I know a lot of you have watched Disney Plus's show
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The Mandalorian, which is a Star Wars the first Star Wars television series,
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and it was one of the biggest shows. I am a tremendous fan,
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as many of you already know, But what I was really interested in was
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the virtual production techniques and technologies that they use and implemented to make a giant,
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very big budget looking show on a budget. Now, mind you,
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on a budget is relative in the Star Wars universe. But let's just say
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that they were able to put together hours and hours of content for a less
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budget than you would have to spend on a standard Star Wars movie. Now,
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I was like, this is all great and again, you know,
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just like when the t Rex showed up in Jurassic Park in nineteen ninety three.
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That's really great, but how is that going to help us as independent
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filmmakers. Well, today's guest is someone who is going to help you get
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access to this insane technology on a budget. Now, today we are speaking
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to Renee Armador from aar Wall and ar Wall is one of the industry leaders
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in this virtual production technology. And when I saw their newest product, my
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mouth dropped to the floor. They have created the ar Wall Home Studio,
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which allows you, as an independent creator, as an independent filmmaker, to
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use same or similar technologies to what they used on the Mandalorian at a very
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very affordable price. We're talking less than the cost of a red camera.
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Now, Renee and I get into all of the technology, how independent filmmakers
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can use it, what it would do for your production value, How do
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you get those amazing backgrounds that you're going to be able to move left and
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right? I mean, is it's just an insane, insane world that we're
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walking into. We are that much closer to literally just shooting on a holid
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deck from Star Trek, which is basically an entire room that looks and it
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feels almost like a real room, but it's all holographic. We are very
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We're just getting closer and closer to eventually being able to shoot on the Holid
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deck, and this technology is that next step forward. So, without any
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further ado, please enjoy my conversation with Renee Almador. I'd like to welcome
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to the show, Renee Amador. How are you doing, Renee? I'm
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doing just fine. Thanks for having me, Alex oh brother man, thank
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you for being on the show. Man, I truly appreciate I am.
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I have to say before we get started, man, I am such a
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fan of what you guys are doing today are It's it's mind blowing, absolutely
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mind blowing. But we're going to get into all of that in this episode.
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But before we start, I have to tell the story because we were
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talking about it before we got on. Yes, and please tell, please
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tell the audience how we know each other. Yeah, So, I mean
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I think you reached out because we had some big press recently. We came
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out with some big announcement recently, and just this morning, I was thinking,
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Alex for our is such a familiar name. It's the type of name
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you don't forget, right, So I was thinking, this sounds so familiar.
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I went back to my personal email from like you know, over ten
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years ago, and went and looked and put your name in and found I've
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been on your newsletter since about two thousand and seven with a Nigma factory.
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And I think it was originally because you were kicking butt on the DVX one
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hundred A and then the HVX two hundred and you were one of the few
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people that was doing visual effects intensive stuff on those cameras, so we we
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wanted to use those same cameras, so we were following you to see what
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you were up to, what your workflows were, And then you came up
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with a bunch of like workshops too, and I think I actually might have
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purchased them. But I think the original way that I that I heard about
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you is we we had a we had a couple of films go to Dragon
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Calm two thousand and seven. Your your shorts were there as well. So
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once I saw those, and I think we were at actually in contention against
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each other, it was like you won first price, I won second price.
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Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, So that's how I first learned it.
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I was like, the hell, this guy, you know, why,
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why why did you get first place. What the hell's going on here?
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I got to watch these things exactly. That's hilarious. That's I have
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an email here, first email from your newsletter June two thousand and seven.
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What a blast from the past. I was when you told me this story.
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I was absolutely floored because I, first of all, I can't believe
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you have email from two thousand and seven, So that alone, there's issues
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that you need to work out. But but that and then you read the
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email was about my second film, Sin and I'll you know, hey,
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guys, I want to let you know about a new film. It is
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so funny how that little short film I did in two thousand and five people
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still talk to me about it and still reach it like when I and it
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happens more often than you would think, Like I the last thing I thought
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of when when I rang in to do our interview today as we were going
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to go, hey, dude, I like I remember broken, Like I
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just didn't. It's hilarious. That's amazing. Yeah, it's pretty pretty amazing,
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man, But thank you for sharing that insane say good stand. Just
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to be clear, I'm a fan, and that's awesome. Here you know,
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I'm here just to interview you. Basically, I'll come on your podcast
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or anytime you like the ar podcast, anytime you want. So, how
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did you get into the film business in the first place. Yeah, so
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I think originally my dad, my dad wanted to be a filmmaker way back
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in the seventies and ended up going into computer engineering instead. So he was
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one of the top software engineers for the defense industry for about forty years.
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But through that entire period, from even a young age, that spirit of
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filmmaking was still inside him, and he definitely, you know, imbued my
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entire upbringing, my my my media culture with that love of cinema. So,
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you know, I grew up, you know, before the age of
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ten watching Ballini and Kirasawa and all these intense films, just really just thinking
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like, Okay, this is just this is culture, this is what art
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is, not really knowing that, like it's pretty unusual to get that type
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of education as a young child in cinema. So at about the age of
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ten, I you know, made a pretty determined statement to my family,
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like I am going to be a filmmaker. I'm going to be a director,
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you know, screenwriter and make these projects do some TV do some film,
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you know, just do what I can and and really I think it
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was a couple of films that did that for me. Obviously, I think
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like science fiction films were pretty big for me Star Wars. But then there's
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one particular which peopull my laugh at, which is in the David Lynch movie.
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I happen to own that because my dad was a pretty big David Lynch
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fan, and I don't think i'd seen any of the other films. It's
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the first film i'd seen of his. And when I just in the first
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ten minutes of that film, you see the set design and the production design
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that they brought to that project, and you just think somebody's job is to
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get paid to make those sets, and just to think how much fun and
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how much amazing creativity goes into that type of collaboration. I thought that that's
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something I have to be involved with, because you know, as a kid,
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you look out into the rest of the world and you're like, who
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else is approaching that level of creativity and that level of storytelling and imagination.
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It's not really something that you see out in the world. We'll be right
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back after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. So
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film for me was that moment where I realized dream and imagination and reality and
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career could all come together into one package and really create something special. So
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that that's how I really got started. And then just just kind of thinking
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of that mentality, uh at a very young age. And then I made
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my first project obviously uh for us for a high you know, trying to
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uh get rid of doing homework. That it was awesome. We make a
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video. We made a video. I think my first video was called Darren
10:45
Gatto. It had to be in Spanish because it was for Spanish class and
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it was just it was basically kind of like a lost highway ripoff, like
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some weird surreal thing where people or you know, in ark lighting, looking
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intense, that type of thing. And that was a lot of fun.
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And one of the things that happened when I was making it is literally everyone
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said to me, hey, you've done this before, Like I can tell
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that you've done this before, and I would be like, never done it
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before. Just watched every single behind the scenes, you know, DVD thing
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that I could get my hands on. So that's how I got started.
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And then in senior year of high school, I made a very popular video
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called Real Ultimate Power the official Ninja movie, which was based on their website
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called Reultimate Power dot net, which is very popular at the time, and
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that got over three million views that video. This was in two thousand and
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two in high school, so I personally set up the how'd you get the
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views? Where were those views? Because YouTube wasn't even around yet, you're
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correct. So there's two things. One is it's an adaptation of a website
11:50
into a video, which is something that hadn't really been done before. And
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in fact, we found out that the only other projects who have done it
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at the time with something called Undercover Brother, which I think you may remember
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that was actually a website to begin with. So we were in this.
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We were part of this little wave in the beginning of viral content where basically
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we're adapting websites into videos. So we got linked on the front page of
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that website and that's where a lotibility viewership came from. However, there's a
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there's another component of it, which is that I was very active in four
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chan in something awful dot com forms which were kind of the precursor to like
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Reddit and like meme groups and that type of stuff and actually into something awful
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form groups with B B YOB and F y A D. I can't say
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what those mean on air, you know, there are acronyms. People who
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know something off of will know these. I was a regular on these and
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being able to put the content out, you know, I would be making
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memes shareables. This was ten years before you know, people even knew what
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a meme or shrifber was. I'll be making them for the film, for
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my art, putting them on the website, being like, look at how
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ridiculous this is, putting a link to the video, and that's how we
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made it have That's what we reached millions of views, and that was such
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a new strategy at that time. And what was funny is ten years later
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I was doing exactly that for Fox, which is so weird. I was
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doing exactly that for Fox actually for American Idol, for one of the top
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media brands in the world. I was doing that meme and Shareble's creation with
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so going full circle. But that's really how I got started. I'm doing
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my own distribution, setting up the web, posting myself and then back when
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you had to think about that type of stuff, and then that project was
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extremely absurdist. It was very similar. I would say it was inspired kind
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of like by the Christopher Guest movies, Waiting for Guffman, that type of
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stuff. I'm a really big fan of Christopher Guest, just the whole that
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insane, improv energy where anything can happen, and that sensation of awkwardness.
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I kind of see him almost as the spiritual successor to Felini in the way
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that he casts off oddball characters that look odd and just give you a certain
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feeling, and then they go off and do something that's highly unusual or just
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highly tense, and it gives you such an intense narrative feeling in those moments.
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I really enjoy that type of stuff. So if you know that about
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me, a lot will make sense about my films because they tend to have
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an observice, really irreverent and kind of a screwball sensibility to them. Well
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that's that's awesome. And I did the same meme situation in two thousand and
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four, two thousand and five when I they did my short films. It
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was, I mean, that was such the wah wah west Man. It
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was such the wah wah West back then, and it's hard for people to
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understand that. You know, you couldn't just put your film up like you
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literally couldn't. There was no YouTube, and even YouTube sucked in two thousand
15:05
and five, like the quality was atrocious. It's the technology just wasn't there,
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let alone to stream. You know, you know what I did with
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send that second film your email? I actually I actually wanted to sell it
15:18
on iTunes, but couldn't because there was no technology to get it up on
15:22
iTunes. So what I did was I would sell the download of an iTunes
15:28
file, the m m V four file or whatever the iTunes format is.
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I would sell it on my on my website and then they would click the
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dollar ninety nine to rent it, and then they would double click on it
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it would open up in the iTunes app back then, Yes, I mean,
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I mean I think you know, remembering back at that time and how
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this how difficult distribution was online. That's a genius smooth I used this.
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This is really going to dated. I used something called real player. Oh
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I remember, of course. Yeah, the web, the web, the
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the flat it was flash based, right or close, I'm not sure.
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If it was flash based, but I know you were a player or yeah,
16:04
something like that. Yeah, it was JavaScript, possibly flash or you
16:08
know, shockwave or whatever the hell they have dream exactly So yeah, I
16:18
mean you would have to build the actual infrastructure of distribution at that time,
16:22
and it was such a pain in the butt. And when YouTube came along,
16:26
really the original people might not realize it's the original pitch that YouTube had
16:32
wasn't even as a video destination. It was as a pitch to video creators.
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Hey, we'll make it super easy for you to get your video online.
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Then you can embed it wherever you want. You know, you're there
16:44
everywhere. It wasn't meant to be a destination site. It was only later
16:47
when people started linking directly to the YouTube page instead of their own website with
16:52
the video embedded, that it started to become a video destination site. And
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that was very interesting to see happen in real time. No, it's it's
16:59
in crazy. And I also, by the way I have I think and
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I want someone to tell me differently, but I think I have the first
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filmmaking tutorials up on YouTube. I wouldn't be surprised because it was five Yeah,
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I think I bought them, and I remember it being I remember it
17:18
being unusual, like I hadn't heard like I'm trying to think, like it
17:22
was almost it almost felt infomercially, you know, like you know, like,
17:26
oh, you know, learn how to meditate or something. You know,
17:30
you would see that kind of stuff on TV, but you didn't.
17:32
You know, it's not like now where you know masterclass and you know how
17:36
to cook and learn how to fist or that, or it wasn't a common
17:38
thing. And the fact that you were doing something on media creation was pretty
17:41
unusual because at that point it had just become viable to do, to do
17:48
like fully digital media, and then you were you had realized, oh man,
17:52
I like I can you know, do screen caps, and I can
17:55
do all sorts of stuff, and so you were showing the entire process in
17:57
an interesting way. Then I don't think I had been done before, Like
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where did you learn how to do that? Because I don't think there's like
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a post guy. I was a post guy, dude, I was.
18:07
I was editing since ninety six, so I just kind of understood the post
18:12
production aspect of things. And then I have a marketing head and that's how
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it kind of all combined that with everything else I've done in my life.
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It kind of came up and started doing it. I always just figured out
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like and even then I still didn't get it because I left YouTube. I
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should have stayed. I should have stayed, and it's kept making. If
18:30
I would have made tutorials, just kept making tutorial videos, I would own
18:34
own the filmmaking tutorial space. But I but I'm not. I'm not a
18:40
teacher. I don't I'm a filmmaker. Spielberg didn't do tutorial videos. Why
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should I? And that was the ego Spipe speaking. But who knew?
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No one, yes, one, No one knew, No one knew exactly.
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But so so we're here to talk about your company that you've co founded
18:57
ar Wall first of all, which is, if I'm correct about it's a
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company that deals with augmented reality and versions of that. Can you explain to
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people what augmented reality is? Absolutely? So we call ourselves an ar XR
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company, which basically means augmented reality and what they call extended reality or some
19:19
people call it mixed reality. And basically what this means is we're combining live
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action elements in real time with CG elements, and it's different from traditional visual
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effects, which is entirely a time shifted process where you shoot and then you
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do the compositing at a later point. So we're not we're not in that
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game. We're in the game of capturing it on set live, whether it's
19:48
a live stream, a live broadcast, or live to tape type of scenario.
19:53
We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back to
20:00
the show where you want to give the impression of a live broadcast. But
20:07
the whole point is you walk away from set with the final shot, with
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the final pixel. And that's a fundamental shift in the way that people have
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been conceiving of virtual production, because I think when it comes to film and
20:19
TV, prior to us coming out to the scene, most people's heads were
20:23
at pre visualization, which means, you know, you hire the third floor
20:29
we worked who has worked on Star Wars and Avengers films, one of our
20:33
one of our sister companies that that we love working with, and so you
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you have a temporary composite which isn't even meant to be like a full uh
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like fully one tracked a composite. It's meant to be reminiscent and just to
20:49
give the the filmmakers on set like an idea of what it's going to be
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like. So that's not final pixel and that's where real time graphics have been
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relegated and film and TV for quite some time, about ten years. When
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we came on the scene in twenty sixteen, there was no solution that was
21:08
fast enough to do like the window illusion and camera tracking the way that we
21:15
did. There was some stuff for experientials. Unreal had something called the R
21:22
Cluster, and then Barco had developed something for industrial use that used goggles with
21:30
like big ping pong balls on them, that type of thing, but nobody
21:34
had looked at how do you combine those experiential and industrial tools that were being
21:41
developed for commercial purposes into the media industry so that you could actually get the
21:49
CG in a realistic way, sutured behind the live action actors and sets.
21:55
So we saw that as our original challenge and we actually accomplish that in twenty
22:00
seventeen and immediately signed a Netflix and NBC Universal project called Knife Flyers, which
22:07
was our first project. And to describe what we're up to here, basically,
22:12
what's happening is if you think of traditional rear projection, you have a
22:17
giant screen. It's giving the sensation that the actor of the sets are in
22:21
a location in which they're not actually so, in space or moving or in
22:25
a forest or whatever the case may be. The problem with rear projection is
22:30
as you move, as you transpose the camera move the position of the camera,
22:34
you begin to see the static rigidity of the too V plate behind the
22:41
actor and set where the rear projection screen is. And that's because obviously the
22:47
illusion of parallax is broken, right and this and the SKU is not correct,
22:51
the perspective is not correct. So what we realized was with the new
22:55
real time, like the new advancements in immersive in VR and AR and that
23:00
type of stuff that were happening in twenty sixteen, there would be an opportunity
23:03
now to actually track the camera's position as it moved and update the vantage point
23:08
onto the rear projection plate so that in under forty one milliseconds, the time
23:15
that it takes for a shutter to open and close, we can actually update
23:18
the background dynamically so that it always looks like you're looking into a deep window
23:25
illusion like a deep environment on that stream. So it's basically a way to
23:30
combine traditional rear projection technology with new immersive tracking technology. And that's that's what
23:37
our vision is. So I can only imagine what someone like Stanley Kubrick would
23:41
do with this if he was alive today, because he was one of the
23:45
I mean a rear projection been around forever, but I think Stanley was one
23:49
of the first to really take it to a whole other I still remember two
23:53
thousand and one. Yeah, it's flawless. I mean you can't even tell
23:57
that it's real projection exactly. And actually that was our thesis statement when we
24:03
were going out and getting initial clients and getting financing and everything like that,
24:08
is we would show Wizard of Oz. Actually, and if you the Wizard
24:14
of Oz tornado sequence, everybody can this picture the spatial reality of that tornado.
24:21
And then to sit down with an investor and tell them, look everything
24:23
here is rear projection, and look how real that looks. And we can
24:29
come back to this perfection in compositing and this is a proven technique for one
24:36
hundred years, that this is something that we can do in a successful way.
24:40
And that's really how we got the ball rolling, because I think that
24:42
was key to our company's success. We didn't come in and say we're the
24:48
new kids on the block and we've got the new stuff and these are the
24:51
toys. No, we did at the opposite. We said, we have
24:55
such amazing reverence for the traditional cinematic methods and between basically between nineteen ninety and
25:03
now is an aberration where everything's green and we need to get right. That's
25:10
kind of the way that we were pitching it to be serious, like between
25:12
nineteen ninety two and twenty twenty, everything was green for like thirty years,
25:17
and it was really uh it was blue, then green, Yeah, exactly,
25:22
it's flu and then green and that, and we're going to look back
25:26
at this moment in history and be like, what the hell were they thinking.
25:29
That's what they were doing before these types of real time backdrops came on
25:33
the scene and they started shooting actual photons again, right, not not making
25:37
fake virtual photons to bounce around everywhere. So just kind of thinking about the
25:44
from a historical perspective, from a legacy perspective, what would be the next
25:48
technology that comes around. And that's how really that we thought of it.
25:52
And I think that we've been acknowledged in this space as people who you know,
25:56
didn't try and come in and you know, and muscle our way in
26:00
with some new tech, but really have reverence and respect for traditional cinemat and
26:06
I think that's that's what we're all about. So the first time I really
26:11
you know, when AR came into my viewpoint, i'd heard about it,
26:15
but again because of early like even in twenty fifteen, twenty sixteen, seventeen,
26:18
it was still very early on, and the technology has grown so fast.
26:22
I mean it's insane how quickly the processing power is. It's just you
26:26
know, grown that now you're able to do things like we're doing currently.
26:32
But the first time I really kind of came into the zeitgeist was Mandalorian.
26:37
Mandalorian has really put it on the map, and really, would you agree,
26:41
like when when you saw Mandalorian, it was like, oh well,
26:44
yes, yeah, So, I mean definitely we were having conversations and you
26:48
know, technically we did the first one if with night Flyers about a year
26:52
prior to Mandalorian coming out. It's when we so we were doing our work.
26:57
But absolutely we we had such a big splash with this led backdrop stuff
27:04
that when people saw Mandalorian and they saw what was happening, Uh, they
27:10
got so excited. I mean, we just had an insane rush of interest
27:14
from everyone in the industry. Most people honestly thought that we had done it
27:18
because they didn't realize that a second team was capable of doing it, which
27:22
is good for us because we got a lot of calls and everything like that.
27:26
But that was massive, and it really puts this type of real time
27:29
technology on the map because you have, you know, a guy like Jon
27:33
Favreau backing this, talking about ingusting about it, everything like that, and
27:37
it makes the that makes the sailing process a little bit easier, and it
27:41
gets us further along on most on most projects than prior. So it helped
27:48
a lot. It really made people see like, you know what, I
27:52
don't need to do a camera test, you know, to see if it's
27:55
viable anymore. I don't need to see any more footage like I know it's
27:57
I know it's viable, and now it's need to make sure that I'm working
28:00
with the right team. So, because we're one of the longest serving teams
28:04
in this space doing these LED backdrops, we've benefited a lot from the Mandalorians,
28:11
big surgeon interest in the industry. Yeah, I mean when I saw
28:14
some of the behind the scenes also of what was it, Nine Flyers,
28:18
I saw some stuff that you were doing the night Flyers and some of the
28:21
you know, just just sitting there watching a camera guy move the camera and
28:26
then the background move with it. You know, your mouth drops, You're
28:30
just like what. But there's also another big benefit to that is the lighting.
28:36
You're getting real time lighting, which you don't get in the green screen,
28:40
and that is something that you just can't replicate in post, you know,
28:45
and being a post guy, it's difficult. It's not difficult, it's
28:48
nearly impossible to do it really well. Where now you have reflections, you
28:53
have lighting, like if there's a sun out, the sun is hitting you.
28:59
If there's night little you know, night lights hitting you, nightlights or
29:02
hitting you. And here's the thing, here's what's funny. You wouldn't know
29:07
exactly you wouldn't exactly know those benefits unless you'd actually have to go through the
29:11
green screen compositing process personally and go, oh, wait, this doesn't work,
29:17
Like this thing that should work doesn't isn't working. Like I need to
29:21
recreate this entire lighting scheme and lighting conditions or change it, you know,
29:26
and fake it or something like that, and really until you until you run
29:30
up to, you know, what I would call like the dead end of
29:33
what green screen is capable of. There's a certain point which you can't go
29:37
any further, you know, without really just you know, faking everything.
29:41
It's at that point that you realize, gosh, there's got to be a
29:45
better way. And you know, myself working as a visual effects compositor for
29:49
quite some time. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor,
29:59
and now back to the show. I think, I think thinking it's just
30:04
what I'm going to be doing when I'm sixty five, you know, Like,
30:07
am I going to be sitting here king out green and suppression? Yeah,
30:12
painting out noise, and like, is this is this what I'm going
30:17
to be doing, And just just having so much respect for those artists who
30:22
in you know, in my opinion, these these artists who do high level
30:26
feature film and TV work and do this screen screen compositing. These are Da
30:30
Vinci level artists that like we as a culture have basically said, like,
30:34
you know what, just just remove the rock from the background. Okay,
30:40
right, like basic, it's like having It's like having Leonardo Vincu. You're
30:44
like, look, I know that you can do the sisting chapel, but
30:48
just I need that rock killed out that that the wire over there. I
30:51
needed to get rid of that wire. Yeah, exactly, like can you
30:53
get You're absolutely right, absolutely, that's exactly how it feels, and and
30:59
and like and you'll be you'll be hanging around with these visual effects and positors
31:03
and you know, they'll all be like painters, you know, on their
31:06
free time and like the amazing work and stuff, and you're going, gosh,
31:11
okay, is that what we're asking these people to do? And really
31:15
just just thinking something is going to come along and it's going to be able
31:21
to do this in an automated way, and what does that what does that
31:23
look like? In realizing that actually has to happen on set while the camera
31:29
is rolling. If we can get them, if we can get a robotic
31:33
compositor, you know, to to you know, use the wrong term basically,
31:37
but we make an automated compositor that actually composits the shot before this shutter
31:44
opens and closes while you're shooting, then ultimately that's going to be the right
31:49
moment and in order to complete the composite before it goes into the camera's lens.
31:53
So that's really how you know, back up that entire process all the
31:57
way on TOO set, all the way on too set, and even actually
32:00
before the the frame is exposed. That's that's how we came up with this.
32:06
And and and uh, that's was the original conception just for like from
32:09
a really basic standpoint, thinking of it that way. So are so we
32:14
see the technologies there and and now you know you use these these giant led
32:20
uh backdrops and and how how I mean, what's like do you use projectors?
32:24
Do you actually use monitors to do a combination of do is there like
32:29
stitching of giant eighty or one hundred and fifty inch monitors? How are you
32:31
doing it? Sure? So it's a technology that was that most people will
32:37
be familiar with for concerts. So you imagine, you know, the big
32:43
Beyonce concerts. She's got those amazing LED screens behind her that are coordinated in
32:49
motion, you know, motion design, motion graphics with this with the tracks
32:52
and songs and her performance and everything. So it's it's literally those same companies
32:57
that are deploying the screens. You know, there's a lot of great LED
33:00
rental companies out there that we work with, and the difference is that the
33:07
density, the pixel density of the screens is much tighter when you're looking for
33:12
film and TVs because you want to avoid pixelation and mora and those types of
33:15
issues that go along with it. So let's say you know, at a
33:19
concert, you might have a pitch that's like five point six millimeter, which
33:23
is describes the distance between the LED diodes, but on film and TV,
33:30
you might be increasing that by eight times, so eight times more pixels in
33:34
the same like square, Inche that type of thing. So what you end
33:37
up with is basically kind of like the difference between SD and HD way back
33:44
in the day, where you'll be looking from the same distance, but you'll
33:47
just see it being much smoother. Really the illusion of curves and everything is
33:55
maintained, and so like what we've basically been looking at right now is about
34:00
one point five millimeter pitch. For these LEDs, they are built up like
34:06
legos, so you know, you build them one one row, and then
34:10
you build this next row, and then you build a next row until it's
34:14
up to the size that you need. So genuinely, the most common size
34:20
that we're working at is about twenty four by ten feet or twenty four by
34:23
twelve feet for a screen, and then the largest that we've done for a
34:29
commercial production is about forty five feet by sixteen feet, and that was fires.
34:36
That's the whole side. That's the whole side of a sound stage,
34:38
like an entire side of a sound stage is filled with a virtual world.
34:44
And then that way you have the flexibility to put the sets and put the
34:46
actors kind of anywhere in the stage and know that you're going to have that
34:51
amazing backdrop do you have you did you do a ceiling as well, because
34:54
I remember in Mandalorian they actually have that. It's like a dome almost,
35:00
So we didn't. We didn't do a ceiling with led panels. However,
35:05
there was a full production lighting grid up there where they were able to coordinate
35:10
with the action on the screen to make sure that there's you know, the
35:14
lighting, lightings coordinated and that was done by hands I think now, because
35:20
that was way back in was twenty seventeen, something like that, way back,
35:24
way back way back seventeen. Free trust me, I wish I was
35:30
back in twenty seventeen. We're in twenty twenty currently. Oh my gosh.
35:37
So I think if we were to do it now, it would be there's
35:40
be some automation, there'd be some DMX controlled lighting that would coordinate with the
35:45
with the system, and we might be doing some interesting stuff with that very
35:49
soon. And so that's that's generally the screen sizes that we're working at.
35:53
We have worked with rear projection as well, Barco and Christy some amazing projectors
36:00
that I think would be suitable, perfectly suitable for film and TV. So
36:05
it just requires, you know, to be frank like a better DP.
36:08
You have to just be a DP that knows how to use real projection.
36:12
But you can get some really amazing looks. And one of the benefits is
36:16
it's it doesn't have the mare and pixelation the way that you perceive on LED
36:22
screens, so it can be really good for some scenarios. So and that
36:24
would be and then you could actually get a much larger screen with a projector
36:30
as opposed to LEDs easier or not. Oh yeah, So for people that
36:35
want to get into these types of virtual backdrops and virtual production using LED or
36:38
reprojection. Reprojection can be a good first step. You can play around on
36:45
reprojection without too much cost. But I also recommend just playing around on a
36:50
TV because that can be you can get some really large TVs and get some
36:53
shots that look really good and just start learning about the technology. So we
36:59
actually sell we do sell a product specifically for that. It's called AIRFX Home
37:02
Studio. It's made for creators that were stuck at home, so basically for
37:07
myself, And actually we originally conceived of the product because I would have to
37:13
do the demos here at home at my home on my TV, and a
37:16
lot of filmmakers were like, you know, it's great to have a big
37:20
led setup. Can I get that the exact thing that you are showing me
37:23
right now in your TV? That would be amazing just to learn. So
37:27
we did come out with a product specifically for that. If people are interested
37:31
in the cost of that is I mean you're saying right now, the price
37:35
is around ten grand if I saw your website correctly, right, yeah,
37:37
nine five hundred is what we're asking for. AIRFX Home Studio that comes with
37:42
the workstation itself as well as all the tracking you additionally get technical support,
37:46
knowledge based video tutorials, and you know, get to our expertise to support
37:52
your projects. It also comes with a launch scene pack about one hundred backdrops.
37:58
It's really everything that somebody need to get started in this space, and
38:01
that's going to connect perfectly to your TV and your existing camera. So let's
38:06
talk about the backdrops, because that's the one thing that this all sounds fantastic,
38:09
but unless you're a guy or a gal who knows how to render out
38:15
real time, like, how is the backdrop? How is the creation of
38:17
the backdrops work? How can you create customs? Can you go out and
38:21
shoot footage and put it on there? Does that work? How is it?
38:23
How explain that process? Like the actual creation of the backdrop? Sure,
38:28
it's definitely the part of the process that still needs work. Like this
38:30
is not a perfect method the way that it's been done right now, and
38:36
basically the way that that method is is you build up the actual geometry of
38:39
the scene either in MAYA or three studio max Blend or whatever the case may
38:45
be. Then you bring it into unreal engine and at that point you need
38:47
to apply real time materials and shaders and that type of stuff. Lighting,
38:55
specific types of lighting materials and shaders to the elements, and then at that
39:00
point you're ready to shoot and you can use the backdrop. So it's it's
39:07
it's taken visual effects folks a little bit to figure out. Okay, this
39:10
is how I moved from my traditional post methodology to pushing everything into pre into
39:16
a real time engine, which is a un real engine is what we're currently
39:21
working on, which is one of the top real time graphics engines in existence.
39:25
It's they're definitely the leaders in this space. And then this was this
39:30
was also kind of pioneered in the video game space, absolutely, and that's
39:34
that's I think. I think when filmmakers start to look at this real time
39:38
space and realize they're kind of dipping their toes in the same waters as video
39:43
game people, they they can sometimes get intimidated because it's a different world,
39:50
it's a different culture and everything like that. We'll be right back after a
39:54
word from our sponsor and now back to the show. But I think once
40:05
they realize this key point, it starts to become a lot easier for them.
40:08
In the video game world, this is built off of a world of
40:14
you know, indie makers and people who were coming out of the culture of
40:22
technology and independent technology. So these people believe in sharing quite a bit.
40:29
So whenever, for example, whenever a video game company finishes a major project
40:34
and you know, it has success or a dozen or whatever, and they're
40:36
basically done with those assets, they tend to then take every single one of
40:40
the assets that they made and liquidate it onto a marketplace for you, so
40:45
you can go and buy every single thing from the video game, or you
40:49
can buy the select you know, most in demand things from that video game.
40:53
So, as a filmmaker, when you come to Unreal Engine and you
40:58
go to the Unreal Assets Store, and you go to Turbo Squid and all
41:00
these other places where you can begin to get these acids, what you realize
41:06
is, I'm you know, you're sitting on a legacy of twenty plus years
41:10
of acid creation, where video game creators have just been making making, making
41:15
put in on the marketplace, make make make put on the marketplace and that's
41:19
been happening thousands of artists for decades. So you'll you'll be able to go
41:23
and get you know, your you know, your Lamborghini, your you know
41:28
your forests, that type of your t Rex. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
41:31
So so a lot of the time what we're doing with a client when
41:35
we're when we're when we're you know, doing a location scout, which is
41:38
like a virtual location scout. We'll actually go through the unreal acid store and
41:44
do like what do you want and they'll be like, Okay, I want
41:45
an alley. Okay, Ali, we type it in, we get you
41:49
know, fifteen different alleys, and then we're doing basically going through the screenshots
41:52
going does this feel right? Does that feel right? And that's actually how
41:55
we're we're doing it in the moment, and then when we actually is that
41:59
crazy? And then when we actually need to like lock this specific shot like
42:06
on a you know, this is shot as a shot b that type of
42:07
thing, what we'll end up doing is literally on a zoom chat like this,
42:13
I'll be going flying through the location and they'll say, you know what,
42:15
that looks pretty good, Like I like that tree right there, that
42:19
type of thing. Okay, So then I'll bookmarkt into our system and then
42:22
when they show up on set, that's exactly what they saw on that zoom
42:25
called. That's genuitally how we're doing uh, these locations scots. Now in
42:30
the middle there. Of course, we have amazing technical artists who are you
42:34
know, making everything look for the real as much as possible, getting the
42:37
animation done, getting the scripted events done, effects and that type of stuff.
42:40
So are you are you bringing in the location when you're bringing in these
42:44
files? Are you just bringing elements in and you're putting it all together,
42:47
or are you building like are you getting a full blown alley with the garbage
42:51
cans with the lighting schemes? Like what are you what are you getting exactly?
42:54
You're getting everything? Like either we're either we're building off of one specific
43:00
existing stock asset which is royalty free. By the way, these are all
43:05
royalty free. You can use them. You know, you could go and
43:07
you could make a Disney film with them, and technically the artists couldn't say
43:09
anything. It's kind of a weird reality that we live in. So they
43:15
come with everything genuinely inside them, or you can populate them with all sorts
43:22
of whatever props you want. So there's full flexibility here to create the world
43:25
that you want to be created. Yeah, I mean I was. I
43:28
was doing a show for Legendary, a TV show, and I we were
43:31
doing so many insane visual effects, Like we did one hundred and fifty visual
43:35
effects a week for a full blown show. It was insane and the only
43:38
way we could do it was we went to Turbo Squid and I'm like,
43:42
okay, we need a dune worm. Okay, great, let's get in
43:45
and we just and we'd go and find them and they were all pre built,
43:47
and then my vfxs of artists can go because if they would have to
43:51
create those elements, we never make it. And they're cheap, they're not
43:55
they're not super I mean, I'm sure an alley or something a little bit
43:59
more detailed, defensive, but relatively speaking, a lot cheaper than having to
44:01
create it yourself. Yeah. I mean, if you're guys sending like a
44:05
table and chair or something, you're probably spending like what less than thirty bucks
44:08
maybe something like that for like a really really nice one. Yeah. So
44:14
it's a it's a really interesting world once you get into into fully digital environments.
44:20
And I think it's the same kind of thing that happens when people jumped
44:23
from physical sets to green screen. What's happening now is that process of uh,
44:30
you're ending up with more finalized assets now, whereas before you know you'd
44:34
have to you know, you'd have to fit it into the world of your
44:37
film. Now you can go you can find pretty much anything of any style,
44:40
you know, change it up a little bit, change the color or
44:45
something like that, and you have an asset ready to go for your project.
44:47
So it's it's really it's a really odd time in media right now because
44:54
labor and creativity and artistry have been massive are getting massive undervalued because you know,
45:01
all this stuff is out there for free. But at the same time,
45:06
as a creator, as a filmmaker, it's almost like never been a
45:09
better time because you've got all this royalty free assets, you've got the actual
45:15
capability to utilize those assets in your project with this with our technology and similar
45:21
technology. So you're like, it's it's it's a really interesting time. And
45:25
what we're seeing from from filmmakers is actually we're getting this sentence a lot.
45:31
Wow. I've always had this concept that I would never have been able to
45:36
do, and now I'm going to do it. And so we're working on
45:38
a couple of projects right now where these are projects where the artists, the
45:43
director, you know, they wanted to do this five years ago, but
45:45
it was not it's not a budgetary reality. And now we're able to lower
45:50
that budgetary threshold for them so that that vision that they have is actually achievable.
45:54
And as a filmmaker, you know, when I'm moving the needle on
45:59
like it's it's great. You know, it's great to make some money and
46:01
you know that's awesome, right, But when I'm moving the needle on,
46:06
what can what is actually getting greenland? That's that's amazing. And two,
46:10
the created vision that is actually getting executed upon that project dreamline. I mean
46:15
to be able to affect that in a meaningful way. It's very satisfying and
46:20
to me, that's what that's what I'm working for. So that was the
46:22
other thing I want to talk about. The budgetary benefits of this is massive
46:28
because a show like Mandalorian could not be made without this technology. It's just
46:32
be too expensive. It It'd be like making a half of a Star Wars
46:37
film every episode which you got it, it's like it's impossible. Wouldn't wouldn't
46:42
have happened, Like Mandalorian playing plane plainly wouldn't have happened. And a lot
46:46
of people might not realize that there was an actual live action Star Wars film.
46:51
Star Wars a series that was attempted not not to like maybe, oh
46:54
they had like seventy they had seventy episodes written. I remember like Luke Lucas
47:00
had like seventy episodes written of that was he was going to do it,
47:02
but he just was going to could figure it out. They couldn't figure out
47:07
because at that point they were using green screen and so that just the compositing
47:10
and tracking and getting everything working with the beautiful animation that they you know,
47:15
were interested in getting it just wouldn't have happened, or you know, frankly,
47:20
it didn't happen. And I think that they've been pushing the live action
47:23
Star Wars series concept until they saw this technology was successible. And I like
47:29
to say that we were part of actually pushing them over that edge. You
47:32
know, we did a showcase at Disney for about two days where we showed
47:37
everyone the pability of this technology and really push it over the edge. And
47:40
and you know, we've been definitely causing some trouble, like when we come
47:45
out here, and just to be clear, not everyone as a fan of
47:50
what we're doing. You can imagine whose lunch we're eating when we're coming out
47:53
and saying, you never have to hire a compositor again. You never have
47:58
to hire a rotor guy again, know that type of thing. So so
48:01
yeah, I mean we got all sorts of pushback from the visual effects folks
48:06
that you know, many different studios, But I think when you actually see,
48:10
wait a second, we're not actually taking money out of someone's pocket.
48:15
What we're doing is we're green lighting a project that would have never happen,
48:20
right, getting the getting the cost of those shots that are appropriate for our
48:24
technology way way down. And you know, for those shots where visual effects
48:29
is still a perfect fit, post visual effects is still a perfect fit.
48:32
You know, they can continue to have those those those shots, and there's
48:37
many shots in which our technology will never be suitable, you know, flying
48:40
an X Wing down the trench and having those beautiful exterior shots of the X
48:45
Wing and that type of stuff. You know, there's no way that we're
48:49
going to be relevant to that because there's no you know, the live action
48:52
component of that is so minor, so like there's always going to be a
48:55
place for visual effects, And the fact is they should be working on those
49:00
amazing trench run sequences. They should not be working as separating you know,
49:05
actresses blonde hair from green, and that they should be more for the like
49:09
if you try to do this with Avengers Endgame, the Final the Final Battle.
49:15
You know, I was trying to think about when I saw this technology
49:16
and like, Okay, how could have this been played out? Because I
49:20
saw the behind the scenes of the Avengers Endgame and it's just massive green.
49:23
It's just massive, massive, massive amounts of green. But I'm like,
49:28
how could have this worked in that environment? And maybe you would have They
49:31
could have probably dropped millions of dollars off of it if they would have structured
49:37
certain shots within uh some sort of ar dome of some sort. But but
49:45
but this is those giant, massive shots when you've got fifty people running.
49:49
Maybe you could maybe you couldn't. There's still gonna be some cg comping in
49:52
there, but there might be a lot of a lot of time and money
49:58
saved. We'll be right back after a word from our sponsor and now back
50:07
to the show. Yeah, absolutely, So, we actually did a case
50:12
study on Night Fliers. We went and got comparison pricing for what if these
50:16
shots had been achieved through traditional green screen visual effects, and what we found
50:21
was pretty startling. We were looking at anywhere from a sixty two to seventy
50:25
three percent reduction of budget for those shots, so meaning wow, so we
50:34
were cutting somewhere around four hundred grand off of an episode budget just by being
50:40
there and accomplishing these effects on set, versus them having to capture a green
50:47
then send it out to a house to work on for two months, come
50:52
back just to give them the flaring and the beautiful play of light that they're
50:59
getting read out of the box with our technology. This is physical photons coming
51:04
out of the screen, hitting the actor's face, hitting the set, you
51:07
know, the and eventually bouncing into the lens as opposed to having to replicate
51:12
that artificially. I mean, it's just for those filmmakers, those dps and
51:16
directors that are looking for that look, it's just a much better choice for
51:21
them. So that's what we've been seeing be successful. But it's also to
51:27
be clear, this is a budgetary concern as well. Producers are liking this
51:31
technology because it's saving them company moves, it's saving them post reduction time.
51:37
They're you know, potentially simplifying their post production down. So if you're post
51:42
supervisor you know, maybe you're working two months instead of four months. It's
51:45
that's the reality that we're bringing to the table with its technology. You know,
51:49
it's great to it's great to talk about, you know, bringing dreams,
51:53
you know, to fruition and that type of stuff. But if the
51:58
dollars and cents that don't make sense, then it's never going to happen.
52:01
So at every moment of our of our company, we've always been, you
52:06
know, mindful of the fact that we're independent filmmakers and we're budget conscious.
52:10
I know, filmmakers like yourself who are working filmmakers, your budget conscious as
52:15
well. And it goes all the way up and down the ladder. Nobody
52:19
is looking to spend more than they have to. So if we can create
52:22
that narrative that you know, this is an opportunity for you instead of having
52:27
to go chase that tax incentive, which is basically what producers are doing,
52:30
like you're just okay, we're gonna you know, save mindy, go chase
52:34
that tax incentive, go to bulk area, you know, or wherever we
52:37
have to go. Instead of doing that, you know, cut seventy percent
52:40
of your effects budget using this technology, and it's going to be suitable for
52:45
you know, ninety percent plus of the shots that you need. And that's
52:47
basically the narrative that that we've been pitching with that case study that's actually available
52:52
on our website. People are interested in going and taking a look, just
52:54
look for night Fiers case study on the homepage and then hopefully you'll see there
53:00
like just how disruptive this technology is going to be. And here's the thing.
53:08
Is so disruptive that I think without the pandemic occurring, we still would
53:13
be having we still would be struggling to get adoption now that the pandemic occurred.
53:16
I you know, I've I've done demos for over four hundred filmmakers and
53:22
executives in the past, you know, six months. It's virtual demos like
53:25
me and me in my living room in front of my TV. And just
53:30
beginning to see those those that interests trickle in for quarter one of twenty twenty
53:35
one. Yeah, it's it's going to be an exciting time for virtual production
53:38
in general. Now, now do you believe because of you know, this
53:44
is a larger conversation, but I think you guys are definitely an ingredient in
53:47
it because because the theatrical experience and the theatrical component of the distribution pipeline is
53:55
pretty much gone right now as we're currently recording this. I'm sure it will
53:59
come back in one way, shape or form in the future. But I
54:01
just read an article yesterday that Disney is completely doing a reorganization and they're completely
54:07
focusing on streaming. So that means that Marvel Movies and all these big tentpole
54:13
movies are going to start going straight to streaming because they're just like, this
54:16
is the future. Theatrical is not where it's at. I'm sure it still
54:21
have a component of it, of course, but it's not what it was,
54:23
and it's I don't think it's going to go back to pre COVID levels
54:29
anytime in the near future. Studios are going to the studios are not going
54:31
to be able to spend three hundred to five hundred million dollars on ten poles
54:37
anymore because the return on the investment isn't as much there because the theatrical international
54:44
theatrical components aren't nearly as big as you know. Before you an Avengers will
54:47
make two billion you know where, I don't know could it make that streaming,
54:53
don't I don't. I don't know, you know what, I pay
54:55
thirty bucks opening day to see the Endgame probably, and I believe there's probably
55:01
at least forty or fifty million people in the world that probably would And that's
55:07
a pretty good that's one point five billion dollars. Yeah, I think it's
55:13
it's it's it's such a weird time because actually, what's happening is now the
55:17
the the established streamers Amazon, Netflix, these guys are actually having conversations with
55:24
the theater owners to see, like, could we fill this gap that the
55:29
major studios are no longer filling because they're just not generating and releasing the content.
55:34
They just, you know, basically, the metrics don't make sense.
55:37
Right. They made these projects for a pre COVID world, and they have
55:42
to release it in a post COVID world, right, and it's just that
55:45
those those metrics are just never going to line up. So what and what's
55:52
happening with the streamers is they were kind of thinking more of the of those
55:55
metrics making sense for them. The business model that they have just fits a
56:00
little bit better, and they have the flexibility to go out and do quote
56:04
unquote a minor theatrical release just to drum up some some publicity for the project.
56:09
So I think the way that it's trickling down to effects vendors and technology
56:15
vendors working in entertainment like us is, you know, one the number of
56:20
people that are looking for a budget conscious solution has fid like we're getting hair
56:25
amount, you know, looking for a budget consciot solution. Disney looking for
56:30
a budget conscious solution. And that's just not where you were before. In
56:34
fact, it was the opposite. If you went above a certain level in
56:37
quote unquote you know, industry notoriety, industry status, you basically don't play
56:44
with anyone below a certain level, right just because you're trying to keep that
56:47
you know, that quality high, you're trying to keep the entire you know,
56:52
social stratum high. So like so it's it's it's definitely changed. And
56:58
the other thing that's changed is you have a lot of people who are smart,
57:04
who have been poised and waiting for a moment like this and who are
57:07
now attacking. And they're now you know, they see the established players all
57:14
you know, tripping and falling and stumbling, and they're going, wait a
57:19
second, this is my opportunity to have a conversation with that studio executive,
57:23
to have a conversation with that filmmaker, to have a conversation with that talent
57:27
agent that I wouldn't have been able to have prior. And a lot of
57:31
the people who are being successful now are people who have experienced in effects,
57:37
in virtual production and then also in working at smaller budgets, so they're willing
57:44
to have a conversation with us, you know, on behalf of these major
57:47
studios in a way that we wouldn't necessarily have had before. And that's been
57:52
super interesting because you know, these are major filmmakers who want to have these
57:55
conversations, who are looking to become the virtual production at this studio, and
58:00
that's an exciting thing to be hearing from filmmakers. So with your with your
58:06
ARFX home studio product, can't independent filmmakers use this technology in their projects.
58:13
If you have a two hundred three hundred thousand dollars movie budget and you know
58:19
it's not a sci fi extravagance, it doesn't have to be. But if
58:22
you have an action film or if you you know, just want to create
58:25
a little bit more scope in the back in the backdrop of shots to give
58:30
more production value to your to your as opposed to flying to Montana for the
58:36
end for that sunset. You can have the Montana endless sunset for twelve hours
58:42
like they did. You've got it. Yeah, so can they? You
58:45
can they do it? And what does it take to get that to work
58:46
for them? Yeah? So the way that we're pitching air Effects on studio
58:52
is that this is the method to learn about this new virtual production technique.
58:57
However, you know, creators being for creators and filmmakers being filmmakers. Immediately
59:02
people are saying, you know what, I could hook this up to a
59:06
rear projection system. I could hook this up to an LED system and actually
59:10
be able to shoot some stuff and get some shots out of the box,
59:15
like completely compositive and ready to go looking great, just with this air effects
59:23
home studio box, you know, some lighting and my camera and everything like
59:27
that. I think that's obviously what we want people to think, because at
59:34
the end of the day, there is nothing special about, you know,
59:37
going out to a TV that's for K resolution and going out to a rear
59:42
projection system that's for K resolution. From the perspective of the actual system,
59:46
there is no difference. It's just pushing out resolution, right, just pushing
59:50
out pixels and doing that, you know, at a high frame rate that's
59:54
going to be suitable for the camera, the production. We'll be right back
1:00:00
after a word from our sponsor and now back to the show. So from
1:00:08
the perspective of the system, there is no difference. What we're saying basically
1:00:14
is for AIRFX home studio, it's the it comes with backdrops which are preset
1:00:19
for you, preset backdrops, stock environments, so that if you want that
1:00:22
forest, that temple, that apartment, that office, whatever, that's going
1:00:27
to go ahead and come in those scene pacts for you. But if you
1:00:30
want custom content or you want to have deeper technical tech rehearsal tools than our
1:00:36
AIRFX Professional system, this first system that we came out with, which is
1:00:40
what we license out to major studios and that type of stuff, that's still
1:00:44
going to be the better choice for those professionals. What the cost of those
1:00:50
If you're interested in knowing about the cost of AIRFX Professional, you can reach
1:00:52
out to us. It's actually we have different pricing depending on different types of
1:00:59
you know, it's a sliding scale depending on the project. Everything like that.
1:01:01
The other reason I mentioned that is because we do actually have bundle packages
1:01:07
with stages located here in LA. So we have partnered with stages here in
1:01:13
LA to have the LED screens or have suitable setups and you can actually get
1:01:20
entire bundle packages by coming to us and using those stages. So that's what
1:01:24
we've been working on during the pandemics. We've taking the opportunity to go,
1:01:29
like, you know what, these stages are having issues getting people in.
1:01:32
One way that we can attract those people is having a more COVID safe,
1:01:37
you know, social distancing state solution. So that's what that's what we've done,
1:01:42
and we're very hopeful that that people are going to find those valuable and
1:01:45
attractive now. And finally, are we just getting closer and closer to the
1:01:50
Star Trek's holidack. I mean essentially this is this is essentially where we're going.
1:01:54
It's funny. It's funny you say that because one of the first things
1:01:58
that happened when we got big of you heads coming in as a studio ahead
1:02:01
and would say, you know, it's great that you can track the camera.
1:02:04
That's awesome. When is it going to attract me when is it going
1:02:07
to attract my head, you know, me as an individual, and I
1:02:09
can actually get these illusions for you know, walking around a room. So
1:02:14
we actually developed that, we built that, and we released it at CEES
1:02:19
just earlier this year at the beginning of the year, prior to the pandemic,
1:02:22
and we won Best ar Experience for that product. It's called Airwall Interactive,
1:02:28
very creative names as you can see, and basically what it is is
1:02:32
it uses depth cameras to establish the track of your head position, so it's
1:02:37
tracking this point right in the bridge of your nose between your eyes, and
1:02:43
then it's delivering the same wind to illusion that we're delivering to our camera,
1:02:45
delivering it to you as an individual. So you walk into a room with
1:02:51
you know, three walls of this experience, which is some of the conversations
1:02:53
that we're having right now, and you'll, you know, you'll be in
1:02:57
another world. And as you move this way, that way is the perspective
1:03:01
is going to shift perfectly to your vantage point. And we're actually getting that
1:03:07
down to the point where it's no longer perceivable. The delay is no longer
1:03:10
perceivable by the human eye. So we're talking about something that feels stuck to
1:03:15
your head, and you move around and it feels stuck to your head every
1:03:20
little sentimeter that you move. The other interesting thing about that is since we
1:03:23
can track your head, we can actually track your entire body, your hands,
1:03:27
your eyes, everything, So we can create situations where based on your
1:03:31
body position, your pose, or the actions that you take, the system
1:03:36
can respond to you. So what am I talking about? Characters that look
1:03:39
directly into your eyes? Because remember we know the position of your head,
1:03:44
We look directly into your eyes, we talk to you, we respond to
1:03:46
your voice, and then we actually respond to your gesture. So if you
1:03:51
point and you know, say it's over there and point over there, the
1:03:53
CG character can look at where you're pointing and react realistically using either a TATBOS
1:04:00
system or AI or something like that. So that's the type of really crazy
1:04:03
stuff that we're working in. And I'll be frank, I would love to
1:04:08
say that, you know, we're definitely one of the companies that down the
1:04:13
line, the patents that we filed, the work that we've been doing with
1:04:16
brands and with venues, hopefully Wilson Day lead to a holiday type device.
1:04:21
Not necessarily saying that we're going to be the company to doing because I still
1:04:26
do think it's a little bit down the line. Maybe by the end of
1:04:29
my life we may have something like as you have fifty years something maybe something
1:04:34
like that, But I do definitely think that between now and then, we're
1:04:39
going to have these very interesting experiences, Like from the perspective of somebody who
1:04:44
you know, wasn't born with these type of technology being around, it is
1:04:47
going to seem and feel like a holiday type of experience. And just to
1:04:51
be clear, those are conversations we're having right now about let's deploy that first
1:04:58
quarter of twenty twenty one, let's make that happen. And I think the
1:05:02
pandemic also helps push that conversation along because people can't get out and they can't
1:05:06
have these experiences, and particularly when you think about training and education, these
1:05:13
are situations where you know you can't stop training people just because it's cumbersome and
1:05:16
difficult, right, People still need to be trained up. So that's that's
1:05:20
what we're seeing kind of the first interest coming from that from that space.
1:05:25
So I know it's it's it's something that may seem distant in science fiction,
1:05:30
but that those conversations are happening now, creating those immersive rooms that those conversations
1:05:33
are happening. The funny thing is that as you're saying this, I'm like,
1:05:36
in fifty years this will look like SD this will look like a silent
1:05:41
movie technology comparatively to what the Holid deck is. But it's not that far,
1:05:47
Like you know, we're not that far. It's a stone throw it's
1:05:51
a big stone throw away, but it is still something that's not completely astronomical
1:05:58
to in my life time to see a holid deck where where you're interacting with
1:06:04
photoreal computer generated images that look literally as as crystal clear as a human being
1:06:13
standing right next to you. Can you only imagine the kind of filmmaking that
1:06:16
will be. Can you imagine where like kids will be in there in their
1:06:19
garages with Holi decks shooting the next Avengers endgame will look like an indie film
1:06:28
exactly, And like you can imagine a world where you put up the holid
1:06:30
deck like wallpaper, right, you put up the stream like wallpaper, just
1:06:34
like gaining it on, rolling it on, and that type of thing,
1:06:38
and then it all self coordinates. You know, goes, okay, this
1:06:41
is you know what position I am in the world and everything like that.
1:06:45
Like it's not that it's not that difficult to imagine it. Like, I
1:06:47
think the technology exists right now. What doesn't exist right now is the will
1:06:53
and the actual use case that would demand that investment together. Right, That's
1:06:59
that's what we're working and we're trying to find those partners. And it's folks
1:07:03
in location based entertainment, it's folks in training and education. It's also folks
1:07:10
in the defence industry. We're having some conversations imagine. So so there's all
1:07:15
sorts of use cases for that, but you know, until we find that
1:07:19
perfect one, it's it's it's not going to happen. So that that's what
1:07:23
that's what our job is as a company and as a business right to talk
1:07:27
to have conversations with these decision makers and go what is actually going to get
1:07:31
the money to flow and what what are the requirements that we can hit that
1:07:35
we can hit now they're going to get that money to flow and actually make
1:07:39
investment happen. So that's that's really my work as a CEO is helping folks
1:07:44
see that. I've been successful in doing that in filmmaking now with this technology
1:07:48
with airwell interactive going out and filmmaking out of media out into the rest of
1:07:53
the world. I'm having very interesting conversations where they're you know, they're aware
1:07:58
of Mandalorian, They're aware of the work that's been happening, because this is
1:08:01
something that broke out even just of the entertainment community. So we're having conversations
1:08:08
where that amazing work that has been done in film and TV is actually moving
1:08:13
the ball in other industries because they're like, you know what Jon Favreau did
1:08:17
it, maybe that'll work for our thing too. It's a really weird time,
1:08:23
and I think the pandemic has supercharged all of this. I mean,
1:08:27
this is all something that would have happened eventually, Like we would have all
1:08:30
eventually gone to more streaming than theatrical the writing was on the wall, all
1:08:34
this technology, it would still be moving forward. I think it just sped
1:08:39
it up probably a few years in time frame where it would have been.
1:08:44
So it is, it is what it is in regards to what we're dealing
1:08:47
with with the pandemic. But there is some benefits because people are like zoom
1:08:54
like now everybody. I don't know, if you've been driving around La traffic's
1:08:57
fantastic, like this is this is like it's but this is a wonderful place
1:09:00
to live now, like all of a sudden, like I drove to Santa
1:09:03
Monica last weekend. It took me thirty five minutes. Oh yeah, I
1:09:08
live in the valley. That's an hour and a half normally. Exactly.
1:09:11
Yeah, yeah, because everyone's working at home exactly. We're almost back to
1:09:15
the clueless days where you know, I think the famous line and slu list
1:09:18
is everywhere in la is twenty minutes and it's away. Yes, and we're
1:09:23
almost there. We're getting under forty Yeah, they're forty minutes. We're going
1:09:27
to get their sun ta. Yeah. I agree with you, so Ree,
1:09:30
I appreciate you being on the show man. I want to ask you
1:09:32
a few questions, ask all my guests, what advice would you give a
1:09:34
filmmaker trying to break into the business today, besides obviously buying an ar wall
1:09:40
FX studio home studio, Ian HAIRFX home studio. No, I think,
1:09:45
I mean, I think my real answer probably tracks with that pretty well,
1:09:48
which is, you know, I think anybody can see that the media entertainment
1:09:55
industry is undergoing a transition, right now we'll be right back after a word
1:10:00
from our sponsor, and now back to the show. And you don't want
1:10:09
to be on the wrong side of that transition. You don't want to be
1:10:12
of the mentality of you know, I'm going to need making half a billion
1:10:15
dollar movies and we're going to be putting out in theaters and everybody. You
1:10:19
know, we're going to put money in our ears and you know stream and
1:10:25
you know that's that, And that's what filmmaking is going to be. I
1:10:28
think it's shifted, and I think that a successful filmmaker now is somebody who
1:10:31
understands their audience, who understands who's coming to their films, listens to those
1:10:36
people, and doesn't listen to anybody else, Because that's that's the reality right
1:10:42
now. In order to be a successful creator, you've got to be selective
1:10:45
about who you're listening to. I think that's the big one right now.
1:10:49
You know, a project that is that is successful, is going to work
1:10:54
on Hulu, isn't necessarily going to be successful in work on Disney Plus.
1:10:59
And that's just a reality that we live in right now, that these are
1:11:02
sidled audiences happening. So I think the idea of mainstream filmmaking as a whole
1:11:10
has fundamentally collapsed and changed. I don't think that when when you think of
1:11:15
a mainstream film, we're probably thinking of that, you know, Avengers Endgame
1:11:19
of that type of thing, and I think moving forward, it's going to
1:11:23
be a different type of film that we're probably thinking about. And to be
1:11:26
frank, it's probably not even going to be a film. It's probably going
1:11:29
to be a TV show, a TV series, a limited series or something
1:11:31
like that. Raised by Wolves, I think is a really good example.
1:11:35
I don't know if you've been watching that, and I haven't seen any about
1:11:38
it. It's on my list, you know what, Really Scott, that's
1:11:41
a really good example because it's almost it's it's a post really Scott film,
1:11:45
you know, it's it's pitched as a really Scott universe, but in reality,
1:11:49
you know, it's a TV show, and really Scott's projects are films
1:11:55
traditionally, So it's in my opinion, it's somebody who looked at the mob
1:12:00
that really Scott had has mastered and has really you know, gone out of
1:12:04
his way to nail and then taking that and transplanting that into this, you
1:12:10
know, post transition world that we live in, and that's I think a
1:12:13
good project for people to think about moving forward. How it takes traditional familiar
1:12:18
symbology, story structure and just does it in a different way. And I
1:12:24
think that's what successful filmmaking is going to be like in the future. And
1:12:27
so technology is a big component of that. You know, virtual production.
1:12:30
I don't think it's going to go away anytime soon. So in this in
1:12:33
the same way that you know, you and I were, you know,
1:12:38
I think saw success in moving into digital video as a as a as a
1:12:44
creative a tool for us, as a crucial creative tool for us, and
1:12:49
long linear editing as well. I think that same virtual production is going to
1:12:56
be that same tool of empowerment for filmmakers were coming up right now. Like
1:13:00
if you're if you graduate, if you just graduated for film school, and
1:13:05
you want to get a job in Hollywood, go and make a project on
1:13:10
a real engine, make a little one minute thing on an real engine,
1:13:15
then email me, I will freaking hire you. Because there's so few people
1:13:18
that have both filmmaking experience and in real engine experience. It's just not something
1:13:24
that people are looking at right now. And I think that those for those
1:13:27
who do it's going to be very successful. And what is the lesson that
1:13:30
took you the longest to learn, whether in the film business or in life?
1:13:40
This is this is something, This is something definitely something that took me
1:13:44
a long time to learn. I was born and raised in Silicon Valley and
1:13:49
we uh, you know, we're a bunch of tech heads in Silicon Valley
1:13:53
where you know, we all think that we're smarter than everyone else. Basically
1:13:57
is what is you know, the nice way to say it? And and
1:14:00
I think coming out of that culture, coming to LA and really dealing with
1:14:05
people in a wide spanded industries, you see just how empowering technology is to
1:14:13
people, but also how intimidating it can be to people. So I think
1:14:15
the what I what I The thing that took me the longest to learn is
1:14:21
you have to be patient and you have to be forgiving for people's familiarity and
1:14:27
knowledge with technology. And you if you can't be that person that takes a
1:14:34
difficult technological process and task and makes that easy for someone to understand or use
1:14:43
or analyze or whatever, that's a friend and a partner and the collaboratory that
1:14:47
you're going to have for a long time. But if you're the type of
1:14:50
person that goes they don't get the tech, screw them. You know,
1:14:55
they're dumb, they're stupid, they're they're you know, old fam they don't
1:15:00
get it. Then all of a sudden you become part of the problem because
1:15:04
that person sees you as an obstacle or something. So that that's the thing
1:15:09
that took me the longest to learn. Being good at technology and being a
1:15:13
master at your tools is a way for you to bring people up. It's
1:15:16
a way for you to bring people up. It's not a division between you
1:15:19
and the other person. It's not we're over here, we know tech and
1:15:24
we know everything and you guys don't. Because at the end of the day,
1:15:28
no, the reason that that person hasn't learned the tech is because they've
1:15:30
been busting their ass mastering some other part of the creative process, some other
1:15:35
part of the business process, and their masters at that. And you're master
1:15:40
at this and they're master at that, and together you can make some magic
1:15:44
and you can make something happen that never would have been possible before. That's
1:15:47
how I created this company, ar Well. This is a multidisciplinary multifaceted company.
1:15:54
Not everyone in the company is a full tech head. Some people are
1:15:57
more creative, some people they're artists, some people are their business people.
1:16:01
And being able to get all these people in the room talking to each other
1:16:05
respectfully and coming up with solutions that are going to be helpful to the entire
1:16:10
industry is so amazing. It's such an amazing experience to have. I wish
1:16:15
I would have done it at every prior company that I found it. I
1:16:17
founded three companies prior to this, and I definitely didn't think that way.
1:16:23
You know, I wanted it to be, you know, birds of a
1:16:26
feather all together, and it just doesn't work that way. You need people
1:16:30
who think differently for me, and I think that's the thing that took me
1:16:33
the longest to learn. And finally, what are three of your favorite films
1:16:36
of all time? Okay, three favorite films, So Vertigo and Shining.
1:16:43
The Shining are usually at the top. Vertigo for me is just it's the
1:16:48
quintessential film. Just the analysis of subjectivity and so just the delusion of trying
1:16:57
to recreate a moment from the past. I think that's exactly what's it's all
1:17:00
about. And then the Shining. It's just a terrifying film. It's it's
1:17:04
one of those it's one of those films that really got me because I I
1:17:09
for saw it. I was about the same age as Danny, So it's
1:17:11
just like just watching that movie. Like I said, my dad is really
1:17:15
into cinema and she was watching stuff I probably shouldn't have been watching at a
1:17:18
young age. But it's shining for sure. And then I guess for the
1:17:23
third one, I got to put Dune in there just because it did.
1:17:25
It did was the catalyst for for me going into film and just just surged
1:17:30
my imagination as a kid, just thinking about that universe and what was possible
1:17:35
in filmmaking. So I'm like obviously really looking forward to the Dune coming out,
1:17:42
which now apparently they're pushing it back. I did have a mini heart
1:17:46
attack when that got delayed a full year. But yeah, I'm really looking
1:17:50
forward. I'm really really looking forward to that project and that And that's a
1:17:54
perfect example. You said something so interesting earlier. Used to like this was
1:17:58
a movie made pre COVID, trying to release in post COVID, and the
1:18:00
numbers don't make sense. That's why James Bond is having such a difficult time.
1:18:04
That's why The Wonder Woman and Black Widow and all these movies that were
1:18:09
made prior. They just don't this this business model doesn't make sense, and
1:18:14
the studios have no idea what to do. So I get it. I
1:18:17
get that, an hold it, like, look, we'll just put it
1:18:18
on the shelf for a year and see what happens. I get it.
1:18:23
It sucks. I look, I want to see all these movies. It
1:18:25
sucks. I want it now. I wonder. No, don't you know
1:18:28
somebody you could get a little a quick screen or somewhere, don't you know
1:18:31
people? Yeah, I mean they probably got that underguard. You know,
1:18:40
no way anyone's going to get their hands on that if they did, could
1:18:43
you imagine, I mean just just like just like crumbling. Yeah. I
1:18:47
remember when Wolverine. The Wolverine got released early, like a week early.
1:18:53
Oh god, that's brutal. That was brutal. And where can people find
1:18:57
you and the good work you're doing over at aarwall. Yeah, So if
1:19:00
you're interested in reaching out to us, you can email us at hello at
1:19:05
arwall dot co, or you can go to our website that's arwall dot co
1:19:12
and on our website, you can find more information about the products that we
1:19:15
sell, as well as airfxom Studio, our newest product which was released during
1:19:19
the pandemic for Creators at Home. Renee Man, thank you so much.
1:19:24
This has been an epic conversation. I just wanted to keep asking you questions
1:19:28
and questions because I'm fascinated by this new technology and I do think it is
1:19:30
going to be the future is a very big component of the future of filmmaking,
1:19:36
especially post COVID, so I truly appreciate you coming on the show and
1:19:41
continue doing the good work you're doing. Over to Ao Walman, thank you
1:19:44
so much. Thank you so much for having me Alex, I really appreciate
1:19:46
it. I want to thank Renee for coming on the show and dropping those
1:19:50
virtual production knowledge bombs on the tribe today. Thank you again so much.
1:19:56
Guys. If you want to get access to anything we spoke about in this
1:19:59
episode, including links to Arwall Arwalls Home Studio and my recent article on virtual
1:20:06
production, just head over to the show notes at Bulletproof Screenwriting dot TV Forward
1:20:12
Slash three sixty two. Thank you so much for listening, guys. As
1:20:15
always, keep on writing, no matter what I'll talk to you soon.
1:20:18
Thanks for listening to the Bulletproof Screenwriting podcast at Bulletproofscreenwriting dot tv.