Latest / Fire That Gathers / Episode 3 - How Do We Gather Toward An Impossible Future? With Gabriel Grant

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Episode 3 - How Do We Gather Toward An Impossible Future? With Gabriel Grant · Fire That Gathers

• speaker-0: Welcome to Fire The Gathers, fuel for purpose-led leaders aborting what's next. Leading in a way that meets this moment is a stretch, not just for what must be done, but for how you're called to lead. Fire That Gathers is a movement of leaders choosing to use this moment of breakdown and possibility as a catalyst for the systems you're creating and for who you're becoming. At this hearth, there is fuel for your movement. From the field, real conversations with purpose-led leaders forging what's next, not the polished case study, the live questions they're walking, where the map runs out. At the edge, breakthrough moments for my coaching rooms and me walking my own developmental edge in real time. I'm gathering too. Come with me. Every episode anchored with an alchemical question, the kind that transforms what you see. Because shifting our paradigm is among the highest leverage points for systems transformation. How we see shapes what's possible. Welcome to Fire The Gathers. Welcome. My guest today is Gabriel Grant. Gabriel works as a catalyst with people or shifting systems from inside impact networks, organizations, and families, currently with shareholder democracy and with weaving futures, and also with Clean Electronics Production Network and the impact two stories we're going to hear more about today. His PhD at Yale asked when and how purposeful work actually contributes to flourishing of leaders and organizations. And his pedagogy for change agents is taught at Cambridge, Cornell, and MIT, and other universities worldwide. Over 15 years, he's coached and trained more than a thousand purpose-led leaders and world-class change agents, founders, board members, C-suites for more than 150 major brands. That's the bio. Here's what it doesn't tell you. He has one of the most infectious laughs. I look forward to having that on our call today. We've had a chance to work together through Converge and now Weaving Futures for seven years. I've seen his commitment to creating impossible things in his work with his family, with his fur babies, ⁓ and in what he holds as possible for his family and friends. So I'm just delighted to bring Gabriel into this conversation. Gabriel, welcome. speaker-1: Thanks, Janine. Pleasure to be here. speaker-0: So I want to open with a quote I've had in my office wall for almost two decades now. It's from Lewis Carroll's The Looking Glass. It's been an anchor in my own work. It supported me in bringing some of the most important things, my daughter, this home, other things into my life. And it's a frame that I often bring to clients. It's a quote when the white queen says to Alice. about impossible things. And Alice says, you know, there's no use trying. One can't believe impossible things. And the queen replies, I dare say you haven't had much practice. When I was your age, I always did it for a half hour a day. Why sometimes I believed as many as six impossible things before breakfast. So these episodes are going to be anchored by alchemical questions. And the one really with Gabriel today is how do you believe impossible things? And we're going to explore a few different stories where that's true. And also how do you hold them in a way that brings them into being? So that's going to be our anchor for today. But I am curious, what is it in your in your background, in your world that creates this capacity to hold these impossible things as real, to hold with that much faith? speaker-1: Yeah. ⁓ I think back to being a child and first just kind of the imagination, the curiosity getting inside of trying to perspective take ⁓ reading about history and how so much of what we witness today was impossible or un you know, couldn't couldn't possibly be imagined ⁓ in the past, and then also dreaming of the future. So I think first it's it's like imaginative capacity, ⁓ both both that perspective taking ⁓ history and and then also looking out in the future. ⁓ also being surrounded by engineers growing up, right? They're the the way that they think about the world is is creating that next new thing. ⁓ designers, engineers. And one of those was my father, ⁓ Greg, who was asked by General Motors, I think in the 70s, to study peak oil and came back and said, we don't actually have to worry about peak oil, we have to worry about carbon and or peak carbon. How much carbon can we put in the atmosphere before we have to change the business we're in here? Yeah. And ⁓ then went on to ⁓ write the business plan for GM's electric car and work on that ⁓ during my whole childhood. So we were building and driving EVs ⁓ since as early as I can remember, probably eight years old. ⁓ in my family, the first car I drove was was GM's electric vehicle, EV one prototype, ⁓ called the Santana, and then the impact and and then it was called the EV one. And ⁓ you know, so believing in that transformation of our of our transportation system, the electrification of our transportation system. And ⁓ the transition away from fossil fuels. And you know, that's been a long time. And some people might still think not still not be able to see it, but for me it looks inevitable now. Like we are ⁓ ramping up the the S curve of of innovation diffusion in that space. So seeing that come to be ⁓ over my lifetime and and then another Another laboratory or another bubble that I lived in ⁓ was ⁓ watching I I was hired by Jim Brainerd in my hometown ⁓ during high school. He was the mayor of Carmel, Indiana. And Jim had a vision for what this town could become. And ⁓ I've never shared this with Jim, but ⁓ I wasn't trying to intern for the the Sismeth there because because my town ⁓ we we had a main street, a main intersection with like a flashing ⁓ it might have been a flashing red stoplight. It might have been a red and green, but we could literally there was a comic book shop one story tall at the at the main intersection. So we would like go there as kids and we could We could kick a hacky sack in the intersection in front of that comic book shop and sort of move ⁓ over when cars came. ⁓ it was that got it. And ⁓ you know, Jim had this vision. he had a lot of radical visions. He ran on racial justice police reform in ⁓ for office in 1994 when he was first elected. I met him. speaker-0: That that much of a small town. speaker-1: in probably nineteen ninety seven and ⁓ he had this vision that we were gonna create this world class city ⁓ and we were gonna do it by ⁓ building this remarkable arts and design district ⁓ you know where this ⁓ comic store was speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: Right. And and and you know, to to me and the other kids there, I mean, it was like we we wanted to grow up and get out, right? ⁓ we it wasn't it wasn't a place to live or ⁓ like it wasn't a place to desire to you know, we wanted to get out, we wanted to go out to the rest of the world and ⁓ but a friend a a friend or ⁓ a fellow student ⁓ whom it interned for him before was asked to nominate. ⁓ his successor and he said I was the only person he could recommend in the in the ⁓ and ⁓ and so I I got the interview and I went in and you know it didn't seem like a a bad thing to intern ⁓ as assistant to the mayor. ⁓ you know what else was I gonna do during my during my speaker-0: You didn't come in sort of committed with a sense that this was the this was a place to leave, not a place to stay. Right. Yeah. Right. Right. speaker-1: Right. And ⁓ the more ⁓ I learned about his vision and what we're trying to build, like this is a world class city, this beautiful place to live and and ⁓ play and it you know, the it just r reminded me ⁓ exactly like what ⁓ my father and his colleagues were doing, right? They were building the future that we wanted and Yeah, I loved it. It was I was all in and and ⁓ it was thrilled to be a part of that. And and so over the course of of working with him for a couple of years and and ⁓ staying in in touch and communication and even ⁓ supporting a little bit thereafter, I got to see this city transform and it you know went from this this acky sack town in the middle of the intersection. ⁓ to really a renowned arts and design district with thousands, if not tens of thousands of people out on the streets enjoying ⁓ those Friday nights, ⁓ you know, Saturday nights where we used to kick our hacky sack. speaker-0: Great. But you mentioned how many years was that? speaker-1: This this was this this would have happened. ⁓ he was elected in ninety-four. He couldn't really get anything done because he didn't have council support. In ninety-eight, we focused on getting the counts council members elected that were supportive. ⁓ then it still took four years to really get any work started. so that was probably eight years before we were really breaking ground on on ⁓ this new development and this vision and ⁓ but fast forward to ⁓ 2008, I think, ⁓ when everyone was having the real estate crisis. around that time we were opening a couple theaters and the world's nicest performing arts center. And you can Google at the Palladium ⁓ in Carmel, Indiana. I mean, it is stunning ⁓ to imagine that this was ⁓ where there were ⁓ you know there were one story. ⁓ strip malls that were super fun sites. you know that was our that was speaker-0: That started with his vision, but it was it was ⁓ there was a duration to this. ⁓ speaker-1: Yeah, there was there was there was so ninety four to two thousand eight would have been ⁓ fourteen years. And yeah, but fourteen years to like reinvent and transform a city. ⁓ you know, I got it you I grew up witnessing that. And and not only did it transform ⁓ what it looks like in the built environment, but the culture shifted. We went from predominantly white, ⁓ to an extremely diverse town. We went from ⁓ setting the record in the United States for the most Republican vote in a repu in a presidential election ever in the Bush de Caucus election to to going for Obama twice in that kind of like it it was really a profound shift ⁓ culturally and ⁓ with diversity of people who were there. And that that was ⁓ Jim's dream is that cities were a place where people from all walks of life come together and cross paths, and and that diversity allows for innovation and creativity. And and creativity is on a foundation of the arts. And by bringing in the arts and making this a desirable place to live, we would attract corporate headquarters, and we did over a hundred. And you know, just we went from I think it was I don't know the numbers, but it was like two orders of magnitude of, you know, if we had five acres of park, we went to five hundred acres of parkland. Like it it would lots of trails, projects and you know, it just became this, you know, just very desirable place to be that that ⁓ I hear people remark about and wins national awards and's considered a sort of leader in urban planning. ⁓ even here in Seattle or you know, when I'm in Portland, people know if you talk to urban planners, they know Carmel, Indiana and and so speaker-0: They know. I mean, it's interesting because I as you tell that story, I we've talked a lot. I haven't heard that story, but I've heard the threads that I feel like come from that, from the piece around holding that vision, noticing who needs to be in the right seats to make that possible, staying with it, and actually seeing that as the seed for something for like a much bigger expansion, but knowing kind of where it needed where it needed to begin. And I'm I'm curious maybe what you took from that and and also when the story I want to. kind of bridge that too is one that you shared in the network leadership series, talking about the clean electronics production network and the place where it started at a place of feeling equally impossible as a hacky sack town turning into a place that you would have corporate headquarters, right? Equally impossible with a lack of the right people and a lack of trust at the outset. And how you held it over duration. So I'm curious what you learned from one and how you were maybe able to map it over in a way that allows you to Yeah. What did you take from from from Carmel and what did you and how did how did you use that? How have you used it? speaker-1: Yeah. I I think I think the the biggest thing is just the impression of getting to witness that transformation in a compressed time frame. I mean the the palladium is is literally a cathedral, but it didn't take a hundred years to build, right? I got to see it come into being from vision to reality. ⁓ it it ⁓ you know that just makes it seem like anything is possible here. We can design and create the the community, the the city, the the world that we want to live in. So that was ⁓ you know, as a kid, that was the impression that was just normal. And yeah. And so ⁓ speaker-0: I love that. I just want to take a moment of just right. The idea that you can kind of vision it and make it real was just what's true. I feel like I see that even with my daughter and their generation and they're kind of a 3D printer. This idea that they can go from idea to something tangible in my hand in a moment is part of sort of shaping that sense of it's possible. that it can it can bridge. speaker-1: Cycle has just sped up, right? So, so ⁓ yeah, that that possibility is increasingly and increasingly available, I believe. ⁓ but you know, so so so having the those people around me with these longer term visions that we're working to fulfill on them and watching these transformations. ⁓ and and ⁓ and again, like you said, like ⁓ there would there wasn't trust, there wasn't support on the original ⁓ Board the the Carmel, ⁓ the other Carmel representatives didn't didn't support the mayor's vision. We had to get a new new representative selected that were supportive of the vision. so it took you know those four years just to kind of begin to prepare to be able to start. ⁓ and so ⁓ you know, find people that that trusted each other and could work together. And you know, fast forwarding to an impact network like the Clean Electronics Production Network is the one you you mentioned, you know, the the goal there, the vision there ⁓ is really to eliminate exposure ⁓ to workers to toxic chemicals, starting with the electronics supply chain. So, you know, we live in a world now with lots of harmful, dangerous chemicals and people get hurt ⁓ going to work. And We don't have great data on that. ⁓ you know, we have kind of anecdotal stories of people being maimed and ⁓ but they're in faraway places and supply chains are really are really long, ⁓ you know, maybe twenty three-ish layers deep. And so the the ⁓ you know, Apple doesn't know who is all in their supply chain. Like y you might have somebody six layers deep that knows they're making something that goes into the iPhone, but Apple doesn't know who's making that, you know, screw that goes into the iPhone, right? So if somebody's getting hurt over there, ⁓ you know, we I would like an iPhone that didn't hurt people, but it's really hard to know ⁓ who got hurt where and why and how do we begin to create a system where that's not where that's not happening. speaker-0: I just wanna name that's part of what I think stood out to our folks in the in NLS and the network leadership series most because everyone's network had some level of ⁓ tension and issues around trust and a sense of it's gonna be hard and how do we get there? And I think when you brought this story, it showed case maybe like the most tension with active lawsuits and and kind of prohibitions to even be in the same room. And I watched the participants Take a breath and go, okay, if it's possible there, I see like there was a cracking open of of curiosity of like, huh, how is that possible? And maybe, maybe there's a window here too. And so taking a moment to share really like where was it when it started, I think is actually useful. speaker-1: Yeah, so you had had human rights organizations tracking on the ground, like in China and other places, like people getting hurt. And then ⁓ and then, you know, sort of publicly screaming at ⁓ Apple and others. ⁓ but you know, it's very hard for Apple to know is that company even in our supply chain? Like why how are we responsible for that? And we can't we can't control what they do because they don't report to us. ⁓ and speaker-0: Yeah. Is that mine? Right. speaker-1: And ⁓ and we don't even have good data about what's what's happening there, ⁓ nor are we allowed to get it, ⁓ because our suppliers consider that data proprietary. And this is maybe a supplier that reports to one of their suppliers that reports to one of their suppliers that that reports to one of their that's it's like and everybody wants to hide the data as their proprietary data throughout the whole system. So so so we literally had a beginning where people were getting hurt, ⁓ People were blaming ⁓ different organizations for for people getting hurt. ⁓ it was unclear, it was hard to trace whether that there was any relationship there at all. And and a lot of cover-up ⁓ because the governments wanted the business so so ⁓ the governments take actions to obscure ⁓ what's happening. You know, for example, there was one human rights organization that was training people. how to identify what chemicals they're working with. Because you and I, we would think we'd walk into a factory and there'd be a label and that'd be attached to like a material safety data sheet, right? And you could figure out what what am I working with? We take these things for granted. ⁓ But in in in these cases, in in these countries where the human rights just haven't evolved, the safety hasn't evolved to that level, not only are the, you know, is the barrel just labeled like A, you know, chemical A. speaker-0: What is this? Yeah. speaker-1: You're not allowed to know what's in it, but yet you're being asked to handle it. And so there was a human rights organization that was training people how to identify what it was that they were handling in their job. And the the people that they were training were being arrested. So you weren't allowed to know how to know what it is that you were being exposed to in your work, right? So so in that like obscurity, in that absence of data, how do we begin to comprehend the reality, much less ⁓ go about improving it, right? ⁓ well it would take something kind of ⁓ seemingly impossible. We would need to have collaboration between the human rights organizations and the brand and the major brands and and the governments and the you know labor organizers and the distributors and the different companies in the different layers of the supply chain and the academic experts that understand toxicity and and ⁓ green tech that we can substitute, right? Like speaker-0: Right. It's hard to fathom, right? Them all right, all of those groups coming together. speaker-1: But it's but it's not that different from building Carmel. Like people didn't know ⁓ we didn't have kind of didn't we didn't have architecture, we didn't have ⁓ racial justice, we didn't have mixed-use buildings, we didn't have urban planning, like it was all it none of it was in place to then create this kind of desirable place to live, right? We had to build all the systems at once. ⁓ so ⁓ ⁓ yeah, I guess it it seems it seems impossible, but it also seems familiar to me because ⁓ you know, I watched what it took to ⁓ replace ⁓ leadership in a police department and and bring in training and transform it. And I w you know, watched what it took to ⁓ come up with creative finance mechanisms to ⁓ take possession and redevelop ⁓ these super funds ⁓ into ⁓ an arts and design district that's extraordinary. Like it ⁓ you know the new agreements that ⁓ we in invented to ⁓ try to avoid the scenario where often artists move to an area 'cause it's cheap, but then as soon as it becomes desirable, they're forced out. And so the the the arts places sort of move ⁓ and we didn't want it to move. We wanted to build it and we wanted to keep it, right? So so like we invent new ways of ⁓ requiring the resident artists to l occupy the building, like live where they're you know, put it in the deed of the building, ⁓ to re require this to stay an arts and design ⁓ place. And you know, so so so you know, coming up with all just sort of imagining all these new never been done before agreements and ⁓ you know, that's what it took at C EPN, and it took doing it with people from all these different perspectives. So, first, you know, similar to Carmel, and this is kind of the stage I'm in with my own ⁓ my own ⁓ network now, shareholder democracy that I'm helping build, ⁓ you know, the first four years were just finding who's who are the collaborators, who do we need in the room, you know, who brings the varied perspectives that could possibly envision and work together on on building the future we want. And and so, you know, C E PN also started off slowly. Like how do you find those people that can collaborate? How do you build the trust? You know, sometimes and then sometimes ⁓ trust breaks down and you have to restore it. Right. speaker-0: Curious, yeah, like how did you because I know it was the arc was long, maybe not as long as what it took for Carmel, but long. And so what actions were possible? What did you do strategically that allowed people to take action together to build support, to build trust in the I know there were a couple of different areas that were you were exploring at that time where people were d designing ways of working together even if they couldn't ⁓ see the answer yet? I think there's There's an insight for folks. ⁓ speaker-1: So you don't you can't it's hard to see how are we gonna transform the system, but you can start to imagine together what needs to be in place, like what would have to exist, and then kind of of that, you know, what can we collaborate on now creating together now, right? So for instance, if we can we like we don't know how we're gonna get the data, but we know we would have to have a system. That allowed us to categorize the data, right? Like so can we build that taxonomy together, right? ⁓ we ⁓ we don't know if we're gonna be able to replace all these ⁓ harmful chemicals with clean, safe chemicals, but can we start building a database of safe substitutions, right? So that we know which chemicals and for what processes there are safe. economic substitutions for right. So so there's little projects that you can start going to work on together. And that kind of builds the working relationship, builds the trust, builds the competence, ⁓ builds the belief that we can work and do things together. ⁓ speaker-0: We appreciate that because you were finding kind of the bite sized pieces that didn't require as much trust or as much disclosure or as much right. Like it was it seemed believable. It was the believable possible interim step, but it began to bridge relationship and began to make it more concrete and more real at the same time. speaker-1: Right. In this town in Carmel, I we we had less than a hundred thousand people back then, but ⁓ you know, with less than a hundred thousand people, it it seemed unbelievable that we could build an eighty million dollar ⁓ performing arts center, right? ⁓ but we could start an arts festival, right? Right. speaker-0: Right. What is possible with who we have with what we have right now? What can we? Yep. speaker-1: Right. Yep. speaker-0: Mm. I appreciate that. ⁓ maybe just to let people know, where is where is this project now? Where's the ⁓ Clean Electronics Production Network? Where did it land? 'Cause I think it's useful just to s even if we don't share the whole arc. Where is it today? speaker-1: Where is it today? They've created a commitment program, which is called Towards Zero Exposure. And the commitment program allows brands ⁓ and suppliers to sign on. And when they sign on, they commit to working with a certain number of their factories and/or their suppliers ⁓ each year to switch over a certain number of known. ⁓ sort of harmful chemicals with safe substitutions. And then and then and then the program sort of scales over time so that each year you're bringing on board more suppliers. And the suppliers you brought on last year are switching out more chemicals. So it's not asking everyone to do everything at once, right? You might only be switching out five chemicals a year, but you're you're going on this journey, right? Where we're continually learning and you're helping supply the data. So we're continually learning what's being used, ⁓ what is hurting people, what can we substitute, and ⁓ and then and then guiding people through that. And the program's growing because of the major brands that first signed on, Dell, HP, Apple, ⁓ Fairphone, ⁓ you know, they've been working with their suppliers over time and ⁓ and continue to and then ⁓ i i believe that ⁓ amazon just signed on with their you know their in-house electronics brands ⁓ and so you know it will continue to fan out and ⁓ both both in invite and support suppliers to make this transition, but also, you know, even more so it's it's sending a market signal that like this is the future. So if you want to be designing processes or chemicals or right and you want them to be able to be used, like this is what you should be designing for. And you know, it got written into the CHIPS Act as best practice that ⁓ companies ⁓ ⁓ I don't know how strong the language was. Like I don't know if it was require required to use or should consider use or it's suggested using it's part of ⁓ it's part of ⁓ receiving money for the CHIPS Act is they look at whether or not you're signed on to the Towards Your Exposure program, ⁓ et cetera. And and you know, it takes it takes a little foothold, you know, it takes an arts festival, it takes an EV one. ⁓ before we can get to full electrification or ⁓ you know or a an arts and design ⁓ district and and sort of Mecca ⁓ in the in the Midwest. ⁓ so yeah, it's it's got its foothold and it's growing and ⁓ I'm I'm s excited to learn more about it each year. speaker-0: Yeah. Well, I just want to celebrate that. We'll put a note about it, a link to it in the in the show notes so people can kind of check it out and just see from from the place of people not even being able to have a conversation to where it is today. And then now it the ⁓ while it's still building and I hear it's growing, it also is proven as real. Like seeing some of the bigger brands sign on makes it more, you know, it's it's believable, it's concrete, it's here today. It's the same as the kind of the performance. Performing arts studio, right? Like it's it's easier to invite others in from that place. ⁓ I'm still just sitting with like the duration, the arc of time and what it takes to kind of stay motivated and to stay engaged for the amount of time that some of these projects take. And I know that was some of your work around self-determination theory and kind of what you've studied around what allows for that flourishing. And it's where we start in NLS. It's the first, kind of the very first. session and something new that we added to the network leadership series to actually focus on people's real why for the work, not their obligation or their grit, but ⁓ cleaner, I like to talking about as like the cleaner, more renewable fuel that can resource us and is particularly needed when we're talking about a longer arc of change. yeah, I'd love to hear kind of how you how you relate kind of the May maybe some of what you studied or your thesis work too, this longer term transformation work isn't gonna happen with a quick win. speaker-1: Sure. So when I was at Yale, ⁓ I was ⁓ researching corporate sustainability and how do you know how do we create high performance corporate sustainability cultures and businesses and ⁓ and one of the things I started to notice and hypothesize around is that the people that were ⁓ leading in this space tended to have be more internally motivated. And you know, so colloquially we talk about internal and external motivation. In the academic literature, ⁓ that's called self-determination theory, ⁓ self-determined or non-self-determined motivation. And ⁓ so I I started to inquire ⁓ during my PhD research ⁓ into you know, has has anyone studied internal motivation and and these types of social and environmental justice or ⁓ corporate sustainability work? And ⁓ I remember ⁓ finding a listserv for faculty with the ⁓ the center for self-determination theory and ⁓ asking to join the the listserv and then sending an email out to the I I had read all the papers that I could find and that they had on their website. And I I sent an email to the listserv saying, you know, is anybody ⁓ s out there studying corporate sustainability and self-determination or environmental social justice work and and ⁓ And then I wrote something along the lines of if there were more people internally motivated, ⁓ this work would be easier. And and I got a reply back from from Ed DC, the founder of self determination theory, ⁓ who at the time I believe was the most cited living academic scholar and and considered the the founder of the preeminent. Right. ⁓ su ⁓ motivational psychology theory at the time and still is. ⁓ and ⁓ and he wrote back that's not something that someone who was internally motivated would say. And and he didn't just read write to me, he replied all to the five hundred faculty members in the in the speaker-0: Right. Out. I mean I noticed myself like pulling back and pulling in, just even hearing that like, okay, this lesson, you're gonna get this lesson. You're really gonna get this lesson. speaker-1: And and I I wish I still had the the draft email, but I noticed myself about two pages into my written response to that to that email explaining how I knew I was internally motivated. I noticed myself kind of in a a bit of a triggered space. Like I I was you know reacting to this to this assessment. speaker-0: This is one of those moments you're like grateful for writing so much that you actually had a chance to notice. speaker-1: I had time to notice before I clicked send. I never clicked send and I don't have that email, which I wish I could go back and read. ⁓ but I started to consider like if I wasn't internally motivated around this work, ⁓ and one of the things that ⁓ at DC said later to a friend of mine was like you can't internally motivate others if it doesn't start with you. Like you're not going to bring people, inspire people to a higher level of motivation than you're occupying yourself, right? Right. We speaker-0: That's why this piece around motivation and just actually tapping into that what the deeper why and knowing what that is is so critical for leaders because the idea that you can actually motivate someone else as though you can push that out rather than draw it out of them is an issue. speaker-1: And so I started to question my own motivations and I started to listen to the motivations around me. And and what I began to notice was that a lot of the, maybe even dare I say all of the environmental and social justice discourse was inside of ⁓ the fear, ⁓ the guilt and the shame of what's happening in the world, right? And the like the heartbreak of it. Yeah. And ⁓ ⁓ speaker-0: Which is real but also not our most useful motivation. So it's it's like the both and of it's not that it's not true, but speaker-1: It's a powerful motivation. It's an important motivation. I I don't wanna get rid of it. But you know, I always wondered why like why are people so much more excited to go to a football game than to solve climate change? Like that's like ⁓ speaker-0: ⁓ Just seeing the world together come together for the World Cup recently. Like I've had that question of like we can come together so much for this. Right. What else? Right. What else could we speaker-1: Exactly. Like why why can't we come together around these things that are seemingly so important at the same scale and determination and and you know, and it's consistent with the with this psychological motivational theory, right? If our if if in order to work on climate change, I'm gonna be swimming in the the fear and the shame and the guilt, like my I want to avoid that. I want to run the other way and go attend a football game. Right. I wanna I wanna escape that quality of energy. and and so you know among other things ⁓ I went to ⁓ my primary research sites were Patagonia, New Belgium and I and I listened to ⁓ dozens and dozens of speaker-0: I want to escape. Right. Yeah. We want to escape that. Yeah. speaker-1: Employees talk about the why behind their work and surprise, surprise, like at the highest performing corporate sustainability places at the time, this would have been in like two thousand and twelve ish, ⁓ they had a much more internally motivated pers perspective, like internally internal motivational narratives, ⁓ than other people I talk to even in sort of like the second highest performing organizations in their in their industries. speaker-0: I just appreciate you naming right, it wasn't it it's not only feel good, it actually influenced performance in a in a real way. speaker-1: Yeah. And and that research has been done in so many industries ever like everywhere, whether it's education or medicine or the army or right, we know from re from the research that the level of self-determination predicts performance along with a lot of other things. so, you know, surprise, surprise, it also does in corporate sustainability. And but I, you know, these narratives, I I remember hypothesizing that. ⁓ they would be talking about the vision. Like that was my conception of what ⁓ and you can understand it like given the the stories about the electricity. Sure. speaker-0: Where where you came with working from the mayor, right? It came from this idea that the vision's gonna sell. Right. speaker-1: The vision is gonna inspire it. And so I'm gonna go and I'm gonna find people talking about the vision. And I was kind of surprised to find that wasn't how they held their internal motivation, by and large. and I mean, but it almost wasn't present at all. Like that was not the vision was not the driver. ⁓ it was these other flavors ⁓ of self determined language. And ⁓ in in self determination theory, there's three different types. There's ⁓ ⁓ what we called ⁓ identified, which is which could be the vision. It's like what I'm creating what I want. I'm creating the future I want. ⁓ there's also ⁓ integrated, which is more like this is who I am, this is who we are. And that was far more present. And ⁓ and then there's intrinsic, like I'm doing it for the challenge of it. Like I'm doing it 'cause it's interesting. Like I'm, you know, it's thing to sing. ⁓ speaker-0: And hear in that, you know, that first one feels like desire, right? If I'm doing this because this is actually like I have a that piece of it. The second one feels more like identity. This is who I am. This is who we are. Right. And then the third one is the joy of the challenge. speaker-1: Yeah, it's like an it's an intrinsic desire. It's it's it's not a desired outcome, but it's just like to do it to do it. And and you know, if you think about, you know, back to the football analogy, like it when you ask people, ⁓ you know, why do you go to a football game? Or what you know, like they don't tell you ⁓ their fears and concerns if we don't go to football games. Like they don't tell you guilt and shame, right? I'm not going to the football game. Like they they they They're like, what do you mean? You know, I love going to football games, right? Or I I love to play football to play football. Like there there's there isn't speaker-0: But when I think about talking to my leaders, my clients about why they do what they do, some of it's just like I like the impossible assignment. I want the hard, meaty thing that nobody has an answer to yet. That's actually what gets me up in the morning. That's what that's where I get I feel fully used and I there's a joy and a challenge at that edge. And I feel like that's what you're speaking to. speaker-1: Exactly. Yep. And that's and that's where that's exactly where I feel fully used is like what's the what's the complex, seemingly impossible problem ⁓ that ⁓ you know, it's like a puzzle, like that I can go to work on and you know, try to invent a new desirable future ⁓ in the midst of a wicked challenge. And yeah, that that ⁓ that lights me up. I get excited about that. speaker-0: So tell us about the way I mean I I I love that I see that in you, like I just even see your eyes lighting up and and talking about it. And I feel like that's ⁓ that's what I see in the clients that I work with is that there's a joy in engaging what with what feels like the impossible assignment. So tell us about the one you're engaging with now. Talk about shareholder democracy. How are you? I I'll name it as like the fire you're currently tending. So how is this? What is the fire you're currently tending? speaker-1: Right. So in there's a there's a there's a c kind of a core fire that stuck with me for a while, which is you know, what I noticed in Carmel and in ⁓ General Motors EV program in the eighties and nineties and ⁓ growing up in those in those bubbles, there were people who were alive in their work. Like they absolutely loved it. You know, they brought their kids to work, ⁓ their kids were ex their families were excited about their work. You know, it wasn't like work-life balance. It was like when's the next softball game at work? You know, like ⁓ you know, who's hanging out at the lab to tonight, all night, like every night. Like 'cause it's that that's it's that exciting, right? speaker-0: It is it was one of the places they came alive. Like that that fueled them. speaker-1: It was alive. And so where where that life energy, like, how do we give everyone access to that life energy? or like I just want as many people to have that. ⁓ and there and there were a few people around the mayor's office that were kind of phoning it in, especially when in the early days there were a lot of people that were just like coming there for a job and I I couldn't really understand them. speaker-0: That so doesn't even resonate with you. It's doesn't even like I don't get it. It doesn't make sense. But I feel like right w if we're doing this kind of work, if we're here to actually contribute to these more complex, wicked challenges, then it the people we want to play with are those who are fully engaged. speaker-1: Right. Exactly. And so over time, ⁓ the people who were really thrilled about the vision showed up and the people who ⁓ who weren't kind of self-selected out. And and it you know created this remarkable culture, even in city government, you know, which should be astounding to a lot of people. Right. And so right now, you know, what it what it came down to me. What what I distilled from it was that the people creating these desirable futures were experiencing their work ⁓ and their life as a calling. And ⁓ Amy Reshnsky was one of my advisors at Yale, and I chose her because she studied ⁓ how people experience their work as a job, career, calling. And but so it's people experiencing their work as a calling. And and through that, ⁓ that was the pathway. To all life on earth flourishing together forever, or what John Ehrenfeld calls sustainability. So, so this dream of all people experiencing their life as a calling such that all life can flourish on earth together forever, ⁓ is is my core vision. That's what I'm working toward. And and so then I would set off on okay, how do we allow how do we create that? How do we how do we scale this? ⁓ this culture and this personal ⁓ transformation and organizational cultural transformation if you will. and ⁓ I learned that ⁓ we could do it inside organizations. We could we could actually over time ⁓ create a culture and create the the tr personal and cultural transformation that allowed people to experience this work this way and that normalized it. And ⁓ and it was really fun to be part of Some of those experiments. Like I got to teach at the Whole Foods Academy for Conscious Leadership. And you know, that we were we were work with a lot of purpose-led organizations and and share learnings from purpose-led organizations with others. And and and but one of the things I kind of kept seeing was just like the EV1 got killed, that you know, who killed the electric car? ⁓ a lot of these organizations. ⁓ and you know Whole Foods got attacked by activist investors who cashed out the purpose programs and cranked up the profit so that they could flip it. And y you know, the it was hard to escape these market forces. Yeah. And and so one of the things I discovered, and ⁓ kind of being in this inquiry with Patagonia ⁓ suggested to people there in two thousand and twelve, ⁓ was that ⁓ we be That you can become a perpetual purpose trust by giving your voting shares to a nonprofit that stands for your values. And that kind of creates mission lock or purpose lock or a it's not really lock, but it it it it's like if the current structures automatically corrupt, like automatically will get rid of your purpose, right? Then that creates the possibility for your purpose to perpetuate over time. It it's like people, you can't cause people to do good, but you can at least. speaker-0: No, but it it allows you to prioritize good over profit. It creates a structure where good is actually not secondary. speaker-1: You can create a structure where you don't require them to act sociopathically. So so so the perpetual purpose trust or this bittiger conversation around steward ownership was a really intriguing conversation to me. And and it and I because I realized that you can you can transform behavior, but that doesn't stick because culture trumps behavior, right? Or c culture trumps strategy. So I went to work transforming cultures and I did that, but then That didn't stick because government governance transfers culture. So then I ha I realized, okay, we actually have to pay attention to the governance structure we're creating, and that has to support the culture that we want to create, to then support the strategies, behaviors that we want to create in order for people to live inside of this different possibility, right? That I'm here to actually create a vision, a future. a mission, a purpose, something other than maximize quarterly earnings or annual earnings by stakeholders. speaker-0: And I I just hear because I think we're just like pausing for a moment there of you continuing to go upstream. So I'm gonna start with behaviors. Wait, but behaviors are created by culture. Okay, so we're gonna focus on culture, but then it's actually going up further to say, right, it's the governance that actually is the catalyst upstream. speaker-1: Right. Right. You're not gonna create and you're not gonna create a different governance system without the personal transformation and the cultural transformation. But but you can have the personal mindset shift or consciousness shift and even the cultural mindset consciousness shift, but then you can have a system with rules ⁓ that then just forces people to create the outcomes they didn't want anyway. And that was the governance structure in traditional organizations in in the United States. So we We I've I found studying IKEA ⁓ and Bosch and ⁓ other European organizations where they seemingly I was I was doing interviews trying to figure out like, well, wait, when like why were you able to make this decision and Adobe wasn't? You know, how did how did you calculate the ROI differently? And they said, Well, we didn't calculate the ROI. What are you talking about? Like, we made this based on our organizational values. So, you know, looking at that, okay, like that was Cool. And we had some successes. And, ⁓ you know, we can help scale that. And then I went on a journey working with impact networks. How can we solve problems that are bigger than single organizations can solve together? And that wound up ⁓ I wound up working with ⁓ several impact in networks of impact investors, ⁓ you know, who were going on this journey to take their money out of public markets and try to put it into more mission-aligned, values-aligned investments. ⁓ I was, you know, teaching people about steward ownership and why even if they put it into a mission aligned investment, they want to make sure there's mission lock, or else it's just going to become the next thing that they're trying to get their money out of. Right. and and ⁓ you know, so taking people on this on these journeys together, which was all well and good, and I'm proud of the work we did, and we have some ⁓ real successes, but but I became more and more uncomfortably aware that like If we can't transform public markets, then like what's the end game here? Are do we think public markets aren't gonna exist? are we trying to displace them? Right. And like what's the model that we want to and and like the money, even at the time Patagonia employees were putting their four ⁓ one Ks back into public markets? So it's like no matter how many Patagonias we created, right? Right. Right. And then and then like there's no ⁓ speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: y you know, we can't solve any of the problems that Patagonia is trying to solve if public markets keep doing what public markets are doing. Right. So so it it's like, I don't think we're gonna there's no we can't build enough we can't build enough Patagonia's right like speaker-0: Especially not if each one of them is fueling what exists, right? So I hear there's like individual islands of new systems, but they're not actually able to fuel. speaker-1: Right. So so there I I started to I I was clear that what we were doing, it was clear at this point that what people were doing, you know, I was calling it self-determination, but but inherently these three different flavors of self-determination, they're they're different flavors of love, right? So you can you can basically ask the question, like how how does love flow here, right? How is love being expressed? Like they're organizing around love. ⁓ you know, I like to say love and care gives people kind of a a lower bar. speaker-0: A little more accessible to be able to say care. But right. I hear you naming it. I heard you naming it in Weaving Futures about love and bringing that in as an e explicit value in a way that we operate. So naming it directly. speaker-1: You know, whether it was whether it was ⁓ General Motors and the electrification programs or ⁓ or the the mayor's office in Carmel, Indiana, or ⁓ C E PN or Patagonia or New Belgium, like what would all these or Whole Foods are right, they're organizing around their love and care, right? And they're trying to solve the problem, like how can we express this more and more through our work? And ⁓ you know, that's kind of heretical because in some ⁓ businesses they say like it's not your job to care. speaker-0: Yeah, I mean it depends on the business. They're also gonna say like love. Love feels like a almost a hard word, a taboo word to actually be able to bring in that in the boardroom. Be careful with that one. speaker-1: It's not your job to care. ⁓ right. So so ⁓ but anyway, I like I had seen this on the individual level. What are the the transformations that people go through as they're trying to figure this out? And I can I had seen this on the organizational level, and I could kind of guide organizations how do we begin to organize around love and care? ⁓ but what I couldn't see was how could we possibly do that at the market level? Like how Could we at scale organize around love and care? And I saw that at the market level, when we think about markets, the signals are like danger in dollars, risks and profit, right? We transmit market signals, quote unquote, and danger in dollars, like and we do that really well. Well, it's like you can only manage what you measure, like you can only organize around what this the signal is, right? So if we want a higher quality. management or self-organization in the system, we have to have a higher quality motivational signal in our in our market system. And so then I sat inside of the question of how can love flow through markets or like how do we create a market signal for love and care? And I sat in that question for a really, really long time. ⁓ about six months. And and then ⁓ I got an answer, and the answer was to give everyone the choice that Yvonne had at Patagonia, which is to give your votes, not necessarily your shares, but can you give your votes to a nonprofit that represents your values? Now, what I don't mean political votes, I mean shareholder votes. Can you give your shareholder votes to a nonprofit that expresses your values? And in so doing, we would create a market signal for love and care. And I'm gonna talk people through that slowly because a lot of people don't know that we live inside of ⁓ it's like if you can imagine a country that's actually a democracy in in law and on paper, but nobody knows that they have a vote and nobody nobody's voted and nobody speaker-0: Nobody's actually c right, nobody is exercising that that right. speaker-1: And they they need a representative, but they've never heard of the idea of a representative. ⁓ and it's like the laws are already there, but they just like you haven't woken up the populace to know that they live inside of this democratic system and and if they don't like the future or the outcomes, they just need to vote. that's our corporate governance system in the in the US today. ⁓ so it used to be, you know, as little as three decades ago. ⁓ you might have a pension and then hold a couple equities in, you know, a couple stocks. ⁓ so you'd have a s a couple of investments in a couple of companies and people would actually vote and they would vote for the board of directors. And then those board members felt like they had the trust of their shareholders to be good stewards of that company. That might include the community and you know. speaker-0: As in the shareholders that actually engage in the process, like beef and the and the board would see themselves as in relationship with and stewards of in that way. Yeah. Right. speaker-1: ⁓ but but now our our corporate governance and and that whole system looks more like the industrial ag system, whereas like you used to know your farmer and where your food came from. ⁓ now you have no idea where your food comes from. Right. Similarly, now you have no idea what companies you're invested in. And there's like hundreds of them in your portfolio. And we we went that way so that people could be diversified and you know protect their savings. And I think that's important. But then but then there's no way. To signal that you're sort of entrusting these directors to express your values in how they're managing the company. They they are reporting to fund managers that are competing on annual returns. And the fund managers don't understand, can't be tasked with understanding your value, the individual values, and the values of their beneficiaries are different. So they they c they're kind of like, How do I ⁓ What's the least common denominator here? Like I I'm supposed to maximize returns, right? And and so they're just voting to maximize returns and and there are no other values and even the value of returns, right? Do your does your beneficiary want to maximize annual returns or three year returns or five year returns or 15 year returns? Because like which one of those are you arguing for when you choose direct when you choose who the directors are and you know weigh in on the the strategy of a corporation? speaker-0: But either way, there's only one right, there's only one metric in this moment, which is returns. speaker-1: Right. And it's like annual returns, right? Like we're expecting annual returns. So so right. So if you could choose your representative, right, then and this is the experiment we ran with ⁓ shareholder democracy ⁓ and this year club was like w would you choose like a different representative than how your votes are being voted now, if they're being voted. A lot of votes just don't get voted. And some people don't know this, but speaker-0: Yeah. speaker-1: But some sometimes your votes are actually ⁓ loaned out or rented out ⁓ for someone to make a short term play, which actually could could be designed to hurt you financially. so so you're if you haven't checked your accounts, ⁓ they they'll lend out your shares ahead of a vote. And you're effectively they're selling your votes. They're sort of auctioning off your votes, ⁓ can then be voted. Not even to help you financially that can actually be voted to hurt you financially and be someone else's short term. speaker-0: Right. So not only are they are people aren't engaged in the process, but maybe the process in the way it's currently happening goes against your interests and you're just not aware. I mean, I think what's what's interesting to me is even taking a step back and coming through all these, the through lines of these threads around ⁓ imagining a bigger system, imagining from what from what's here to what is actually wanted, the fact that you said, you know, you took six months just to sit with this question of what would create a signal for love in the markets. And then this idea of how do we come together to vote it and I think this first experiment with Sierra Club, where are you where is it today? speaker-1: ⁓ so we are building the the network, the impact network of nonprofits that want to go on this journey, civil society organizations. So these could be unions, churches, advocacy organizations like human rights or environmental or or what have you, right? ⁓ the different things people care about n that require business behavior change. Right, need to be represented in corporate governance if we're gonna expect that behavior change. Right. If I if I want my iPhone ⁓ to not hurt people, right? Or or if I'm if I'm in one of those factories and I don't want to hurt myself or others, right? That's a behavior I want to change that requires a different culture. Well, it also requires a different governance mechanism where the owners can say, Yep, we agree with you. Let's not kill people while we make this thing, right? Even if it's legal, we just don't want to do it. We don't want to do it. And in fact, we'd like to take the steps to maybe create government regulation so that our competitors can't do it either. But it we want to go in a different direction than let's externalize all the costs and do whatever we can get away with, right? As long as it maximizes my 401k. So so we have to change the governance system. So so then we have to change like the signal to do that is to change how we vote. speaker-0: Choose. Right. We choose we can make a toy. speaker-1: And so right now the two the network of people that we're building are who are the nonprofits that want to be representatives in the emerging shareholder representative shareholder democracy that we're building together. And then who are the the foundations, the philanthropists, the catalysts ⁓ that want to fund this movement or they care about something, right? They're working towards something and and then they they're unwittingly voting their own votes. against that thing that they're working toward in their day job. And the more you look into this, but the more ⁓ you'll figure out that we're all literally voting, it's like it's like we're doing work in our job to create one outcome. And then we're voting our shares to speaker-0: Either with our eyes clos with our eyes closed and directly in opposition to that day job. Right. Like that's what I hear you. speaker-1: Right. If you're a mental health worker, like you're trying to improve mental people's mental health in your day job, and then your shares are being voted against mental health and against people having access to your own mental health services. Like same thing with dental health. Same thing if you're a cancer doctor, like your notes are being voted to cause cancer, even though your whole life's purpose and your day, your work each day is to stop cancer. Right. So same thing as an environmentalist. You're Your votes are literally being voted to undo the work that you're trying to do, you know, or if you're working like like I said before, it ⁓ I think Patagonia is has either fixed this or is about to fix it. But but you know, when we started this, you know, if you're at Patagonia, your your votes, your 401k. If you're at Sierra Club, your 401k was being voted against the shareholder proposals that Sierra Club was writing themselves, right? When we started this journey. And and so we're all as a society, like voting to undo our work even as we try to create and provide for people in our work. And that's why you're then told not to care. It's not your job to care. Cause 'cause you're literally voting for you not to k not to be able to care. Like speaker-0: Right. Well, it seems like your that motivation is then relevant to the work that you do during the day, but not to how you move your money. And so the I intention is to bring those bring it back together. Right. speaker-1: Right. So I see a f a flourishing democratic system in corporate governance as necessary for people to experience their work as a calling, right? For people to be allowed to care and to build that in, right? In a future where no, we're not trying to externalize costs. it's it's your job to integrate the cares and concerns of the shareholders and the other stakeholders. Especially shareholders, right? Into what we're building here such that it's creating the outcomes the shareholders want. And that's the that's the future I want to unlock for people. So, you know, anybody can go to shareholderdemocracy.org. You can ⁓ sign up on our our form and you know, let us know how you might want to get involved, and ⁓ we will reach out to you when it's when it's time for your support. speaker-0: I appreciate you naming it. And just also right that if you're interested, if you want to learn more that there's that's available, the link will be in the show notes too. ⁓ maybe one one last piece is we talk about calling. And to me, calling is that moment when what we have is needed in the world, but it's also there to grow us. It's there, it's like it feels like there's something about the excitement, the enthusiasm, the like energy it we have for it also means it has an edge for our own growth. Right. So how is this how is this growing you? How is stepping into this new piece of work ⁓ pushing your own edge? speaker-1: Yeah, so this is this has been really humbling for me because I had the pleasure of working as a consultant and like recognizing patterns from afar and stepping in and ha helping people that had already done a lot of the foundation building to get where they were, right? ⁓ was ⁓ executives in a in a company or founder owners or or impact network leaders, ⁓ they ⁓ they had already built a lot of foundation. And so I could bring in kind of my observations and ex help them accelerate their effectiveness. Yeah. and then I saw that in order to create the the future I want, right? But in order to help them as as you know the colleagues I had working at Google or these purpose-led smaller companies or The impact investors and the impact investors, right? We need this simple system that allows them to express their votes in a way that aligns with their values. And that can make such a profound difference. ⁓ you know, I saw that we needed to create it, and in fact, that I'm gonna use the Impact Network playbook to create it because we need lots of different organizations, groups collaborating. It's sort of a a movement, ⁓ if you will, and and a network of networks. And and so I you know, I saw I saw the play, I could see the future, I could see how it unfolds, I saw what needed to be done, we have that experience. But then in order to do it, and and when we do our impact network consulting, we knew that there has to be a convener and a funder. And often it goes awry if the convener is the funder. That lesson. And so I went in search of who could be the convener. I found ⁓ ⁓ about 15 organizations that I thought could be the fe convener. I got introductions to all the EDs. I met with them. ⁓ they all loved and wanted to support it, but had valid reasons why they couldn't lead it. So okay, we needed to create a new organization. Well, that organization is shareholder democracy dot org. Then I started off looking for okay, well, who's gonna be the funder, right? ⁓ but what I what I the reason this is humbling me is because Basically, what I'm doing is I'm going back to ground zero, like ⁓ when Jim Brainerd was first elected and he had zero support in anyone in the in the mayor's office or the city, right? In fact, they wanted him out because he wanted to change the way they're working, right? He he had no ⁓ board members or city council members rather. He didn't have the support of the city council members. Like we're you know, I've gone back to ground zero and I have to build the relationships in this new territory. Right, that I didn't have. I'm not working with a convener, a facilitator, an impact network leader that already has the ten years of building the relationships. Now it's me, right? So so I had to start back at ground zero and and grow it. And so it's just you know, it's fun to jump into Clean Electronics Production Network after they've been doing that for several years and help accelerate it a little bit and then be like and then see the victory, you know, but it's but it's it's speaker-0: Now it's you. speaker-1: You know, there's a lot of legwork before I got ⁓ involved with them and ⁓ a whole lot. And so now I'm starting, you know, I'm starting from zero again. So that ⁓ speaker-0: It's interesting because it feels like the arc of of of your career in some ways. It's like now you're playing the same role that Jim did in the in the town. You can see the vision. It's very clear. And and holding it and staying fueled by your own your own motivation, what keeps you in the work and discovering how love can flow here too. So speaker-1: And the right people are showing up. Slowly but surely, the right people are self selecting and and showing up and starting to gather together and Yeah. You know, Jim wanted to launch that thing in year one and he couldn't he couldn't begin to consider it until year five, right? speaker-0: I mean it's interesting 'cause I feel like that's true for a lot of visionaries, is that it is both a gift and the curse. The gift is that it's true right now for them. And this and shareholder democracy was true from the moment like you could see it. It was true for Jim. It was inevitable. And that speaker-1: But it but it is an inevitable future. That's where we're gonna go. But it's not here now. speaker-0: Yeah. And and I think that's the question we'll sit with is like, what is the impossible vision and how are you holding it as both inevitable and then walking that path at the same time? I want to thank you for being with us today, Gabriel, and for sharing your wisdom, your heart and letting us see how love has flowed through your work, through all these all these different iterations. Deeply grateful for the friendship and looking forward to more family playtime. ⁓ with somebody who we've gotten our kids girls ready to ⁓ to get on the ski slopes and hopefully sometime out in the woods this summer too. So grateful for you as a colleague and as a friend. Thank you. speaker-1: So grateful for too. Thanks for the conversation. speaker-0: Network Leadership Series is where we dig in deep, and Gabriel is one of our facilitators. Eight live sessions over eight weeks, about 20 practitioners, all of you bringing questions from your own network and working them with peers. We start where Gabriel and I start here. What's my why and the most sustainable fuel for this work? From there, where is my network in its evolution and what's the next developmental edge? How do I spark genuine engagement? What does it take to build trust across boundaries? And when do I step forward, hold the center, or step back? And how do I, as a network leader, hold the creative tensions without forcing premature resolution? It's grounded in the five C's of impact networks, self-determination theory and the science of trust. And it works on the shift in being, not just the doing. From the leader as the one who needs to make it happen. The hero to the leader as facilitator. The fall cohort runs October 14th through December 9th. Sliding scale and scholarships are available. Details in the show notes for Weaving Futures Tatalwork. Join this cohort of network leaders and gain frameworks, coaching, and peer support as you gather toward your own impossible vision. Join us.