Latest / The Starting Block / Jesse Pollak reveals plans for Base as exchange competition heats up

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Jesse Pollak reveals plans for Base as exchange competition heats up · The Starting Block

• 0:08
  Welcome back to The Starting Block.
• 0:10
  Happy Thursday to you wherever
• 0:11
  you're joining us from around the
• 0:13
  world.
• 0:14
  If you've never watched the show
• 0:15
  before, welcome. My name's Gareth
• 0:16
  Jenkinson. I'm your host,
• 0:18
  head of multimedia here at The Block
• 0:20
  as well.
• 0:21
  It's a great pleasure to have you
• 0:22
  with us today. And if you are
• 0:23
  joining us for the first time,
• 0:24
  you've missed a lot in the last six
• 0:26
  weeks since we launched the show.
• 0:28
  We started off with a bang, with a
• 0:30
  big interview with CZ in
• 0:32
  Abu Dhabi. If you haven't watched
• 0:33
  that, I would like to ask you
• 0:35
  to go to The Block's YouTube
• 0:36
  channel. Go and check out that
• 0:37
  interview and if you don't already
• 0:39
  subscribe because we're putting out
• 0:40
  a load of great content on our
• 0:42
  YouTube channel.
• 0:43
  And if you're watching us here on X
• 0:45
  this afternoon, please like and
• 0:46
  retweet the stream so we can get
• 0:47
  more people to join us for our big
• 0:49
  show today. It's a great pleasure to
• 0:51
  have Jesse Pollack from BASE and
• 0:53
  Coinbase joining us in a few minutes
• 0:55
  time to chat to us about
• 0:57
  goings on at BASE, what's happening
• 0:59
  at Coinbase, the landscape in
• 1:00
  general, really looking forward to
• 1:01
  that conversation.
• 1:03
  And of course, plenty to
• 1:05
  talk about. But before we do that,
• 1:07
  we are going to jump into the block
• 1:08
  briefing. And if you are here for
• 1:10
  the first time, the block briefing
• 1:11
  is a quick rundown of the top
• 1:13
  stories you need to know in
• 1:14
  the last 24 hours, curated,
• 1:16
  of course, from the block's
• 1:18
  newsroom. We've got the best news in
• 1:20
  the industry. So it's a great
• 1:21
  pleasure for me to cover
• 1:23
  some of the stories that our
• 1:24
  fantastic journalists in our
• 1:26
  newsroom have been covering over
• 1:28
  the last twenty four hours.
• 1:29
  So without further ado, let's
• 1:31
  jump into the block, briefing this
• 1:32
  afternoon. Our first headline.
• 1:34
  Russia just made a major move.
• 1:37
  President Vladimir Putin has signed
• 1:38
  a landmark law creating
• 1:41
  the country's first real regulatory
• 1:42
  framework for crypto setting rules
• 1:44
  for exchanges, custodians,
• 1:46
  brokers, and investors.
• 1:48
  Retail traders can now buy the most
• 1:50
  liquid coins but they're capped at
• 1:51
  around $3,700 a
• 1:53
  year per platform and qualified
• 1:56
  investors face no limits
• 1:57
  and exchanges must register and
• 1:59
  meet minimum capital requirements.
• 2:02
  There is one big caveat.
• 2:03
  Crypto still can't be used to pay
• 2:05
  for goods and services inside
• 2:06
  Russia. The law takes effect
• 2:08
  from September the 1st,
• 2:11
  marking a sharp shift from Moscow's
• 2:13
  long skeptical stance against
• 2:15
  crypto.
• 2:17
  Over in Washington, the clock is
• 2:19
  ticking on the Clarity Act.
• 2:20
  As of Wednesday afternoon, Senate
• 2:22
  Majority Leader John Thune
• 2:24
  hadn't filed the Klochen
• 2:26
  vote needed to move the crypto
• 2:28
  market structure bill forward and
• 2:30
  the chamber breaks for a month long
• 2:32
  recess.
• 2:33
  On Friday, one Democratic
• 2:36
  staffer called it at a standstill,
• 2:38
  pointing to three sticking points,
• 2:40
  ethics around President Trump's
• 2:42
  crypto ventures, illicit finance,
• 2:44
  and Senate Agriculture Committee
• 2:47
  text.
• 2:47
  Analysts at TD Cowan think the
• 2:49
  bill could be 10 votes short of
• 2:52
  the 60 needed, still
• 2:54
  backers insist it doesn't die in
• 2:55
  August, it could pass next
• 2:58
  month.
• 2:59
  Then Coinbase is pushing further
• 3:00
  beyond crypto, starting today.
• 3:02
  Eligible UK users can
• 3:04
  trade nearly 4,000 US stocks,
• 3:06
  24 hours a day, five days a week,
• 3:09
  right alongside their crypto and
• 3:11
  cash. Trades are commission free,
• 3:13
  fractional shares, start at just one
• 3:14
  pound, and you can fund with pounds
• 3:16
  or USDC.
• 3:18
  Coinbase says it's the first crypto
• 3:19
  native app to offer US
• 3:21
  equities in the UK.
• 3:24
  UK boss, Keith Groves,
• 3:25
  who we've had on the show before,
• 3:27
  calls it part of the everything
• 3:28
  exchange strategy.
• 3:29
  Bringing stocks, stable coin
• 3:31
  savings, and borrowing under one
• 3:32
  roof with more products for the UK
• 3:34
  and the EU expected to
• 3:36
  come soon. I'm sure we'll touch base
• 3:37
  with Jesse on that move a
• 3:39
  little bit later in the show today
• 3:40
  as well.
• 3:41
  Then a sobering report from
• 3:42
  Chainalysis, violent wrench attacks
• 3:44
  on crypto holders have already
• 3:46
  netted criminals more than $30
• 3:48
  million in the first half of
• 3:50
  2026, putting this year
• 3:52
  on pace to beat 2025's
• 3:54
  record 58 million, and
• 3:56
  France is now the epicenter.
• 3:58
  The firm ties the surge to a 2024
• 4:00
  breach of French tax
• 4:02
  records that exposed wealthy
• 4:04
  holders' names and addresses.
• 4:06
  Incidents have spread well beyond
• 4:07
  Paris and attackers are increasingly
• 4:09
  targeting victims' families.
• 4:12
  The one bright spot here, fewer
• 4:13
  attempts are succeeding, about
• 4:15
  a quarter down roughly half
• 4:17
  from last year.
• 4:19
  Lastly, Jack Dorsey's block felt the
• 4:21
  crypto slowdown last quarter.
• 4:23
  Bitcoin ecosystem gross profit
• 4:25
  fell 31% year
• 4:27
  over year to $72 million
• 4:29
  after the company deliberately cut
• 4:31
  some cash app Bitcoin fees.
• 4:33
  Bitcoin revenue slipped 13% to
• 4:35
  1.89 billion.
• 4:38
  The block also took an $88
• 4:40
  million paper loss on its Bitcoin
• 4:42
  holdings. It holds just
• 4:44
  over 9,000 Bitcoin.
• 4:46
  Still total gross profit rose 25%
• 4:49
  and block raised its full
• 4:51
  year forecast to 12 and a half
• 4:53
  billion. Shares, though, reversed
• 4:55
  an early four and a half percent.
• 4:57
  Pop to trade lower after
• 4:59
  hours. That's it for the block
• 5:01
  briefing. We will be taking a very
• 5:02
  short break.
• 5:03
  We will back on air with
• 5:05
  Jesse Pollack. Don't go away, we'll
• 5:07
  see you shortly.
• 5:10
  Okay, I'm being told by my producer
• 5:12
  in my ear that Jesse is here, he's
• 5:15
  backstage, so I'm gonna welcome him
• 5:16
  onto the show. Jesse Pollak, head of
• 5:18
  base.
• 5:19
  It's a great pleasure to have you
• 5:20
  here. I think the last time we saw
• 5:21
  each other was in person at Token
• 5:22
  2049 last year.
• 5:24
  A lot has happened since.
• 5:25
  First things first, how are you?
• 5:26
  Thank you.
• 5:30
  Not sure if Jessie can hear me.
• 5:34
  Oh, I'm doing great.
• 5:35
  I'm doing great. Sorry about that.
• 5:36
  Yeah, we got it.
• 5:38
  Uh, uh, doing great, uh happy
• 5:40
  Thursday. How are you doing?
• 5:42
  Yeah, very, very good.
• 5:44
  First things first, I want to
• 5:45
  apologize to you, because a few
• 5:46
  weeks ago, you put out your big
• 5:48
  tweet saying that
• 5:50
  there was some changes afoot
• 5:52
  at bass. And I misread that, and I
• 5:54
  was like, oh, Jesse's handing bass
• 5:55
  over to Koby.
• 5:57
  And then the hordes
• 5:59
  of ex-trolls were
• 6:01
  going at you, and I almost had to
• 6:03
  mute the notifications there.
• 6:04
  So I'm sorry about the
• 6:05
  misunderstanding, but you
• 6:07
  are still the head of bass.
• 6:08
  You've handed over the...
• 6:10
  The app to Kobi and I think it's
• 6:12
  a good place to start the show and
• 6:13
  perhaps just talk a little bit about
• 6:14
  that.
• 6:16
  First things first, the thinking
• 6:17
  that went into that and how long
• 6:19
  that had been brewing.
• 6:21
  Yeah, I'd say it's
• 6:23
  been something that me and Coby have
• 6:24
  been talking about for a few months.
• 6:27
  Really the focus shift
• 6:28
  for me was we're just seeing so
• 6:30
  much growth on tokenization
• 6:33
  on trading on payments on
• 6:34
  financing on base the chain.
• 6:37
  And so leaning in on that
• 6:39
  and making sure that I'm focused on
• 6:40
  that was kind of my top
• 6:42
  priority and Jordan
• 6:44
  Kobe is an incredible builder,
• 6:47
  incredible trader. And as we shifted
• 6:49
  the base app to really focus on
• 6:50
  training, it felt like a natural
• 6:51
  opportunity for him to take on more
• 6:53
  and to kind of accelerate that
• 6:55
  product with me focusing back on
• 6:57
  the chain. And I'd say just a
• 6:59
  few weeks in, we're seeing like
• 7:00
  pretty good results from it.
• 7:02
  The app is shipping super fast.
• 7:04
  I think they're building on a lot of
• 7:05
  the momentum. We built up the first
• 7:06
  half this year.
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  And then on the chain side,
• 7:09
  we're just seeing more and more
• 7:10
  demand from kind of
• 7:12
  more established businesses that
• 7:14
  are looking to use base to
• 7:16
  trade crypto
• 7:18
  and soon stocks and pretty much
• 7:20
  any asset to do payments
• 7:23
  globally with dollar stable coins
• 7:24
  like USDC, but also
• 7:26
  Increasingly, this whole cohort of
• 7:29
  20 plus currencies we have with
• 7:30
  other stablecoins in
• 7:32
  Mexico and Argentina,
• 7:34
  in Nigeria, where folks are using
• 7:36
  their native currencies on base, and
• 7:38
  then also with financing, where
• 7:39
  folks are lending out capital
• 7:42
  building consumer experiences around
• 7:43
  that to earn yield.
• 7:44
  You see this in the Coinbase app and
• 7:46
  a bunch of other Neobanks,
• 7:47
  Neobrokerages, as well as enabling
• 7:49
  borrow products like borrowing
• 7:51
  against your Bitcoin and soon
• 7:52
  borrowing against stocks.
• 7:53
  And so that demand, I
• 7:56
  think, has just been incredible to
• 7:57
  see and it's growing really quickly
• 7:59
  month over month. And so I'm focused
• 8:01
  on growing that.
• 8:04
  When it comes to, you know, base the
• 8:05
  app, have you guys been doing a
• 8:07
  lot of sort of market research and
• 8:09
  looking at other players in the
• 8:10
  space and perhaps what other
• 8:12
  people are doing well and then
• 8:13
  looking to emulate that?
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  Because I think, I mean, even in the
• 8:16
  media landscape, when we designed
• 8:18
  the show, we sat there
• 8:19
  looking at all the other shows that
• 8:21
  are out there and like, damn, that
• 8:22
  looks good. That doesn't look so
• 8:24
  good. Maybe we should try and like
• 8:26
  get a blend of all these things
• 8:27
  together.
• 8:29
  Can you talk a little bit about the
• 8:30
  process of...
• 8:32
  Redesigning or re-approaching what
• 8:34
  base the app is and how it should
• 8:35
  look and feel.
• 8:37
  Yeah, I'd say this
• 8:39
  is kind of product, which is always
• 8:40
  a mix of talking to customers,
• 8:42
  seeing what other folks are doing,
• 8:44
  and then having your own intuitions
• 8:46
  and kind of long-term perspectives
• 8:48
  that shape what you actually build.
• 8:50
  You know, I would say at the beginning
• 8:51
  of this year, we
• 8:52
  saw that where the most demand was,
• 8:54
  was really on the trading front.
• 8:56
  And so that was a shift in focus for
• 8:58
  us. We spent the last six months
• 9:00
  investing there.
• 9:01
  Today, you can trade any asset
• 9:03
  across pretty much any crypto
• 9:04
  ecosystem on the base app.
• 9:05
  We've always said that base is for
• 9:07
  everyone, it's a bridge, not an
• 9:08
  island, and so that's been
• 9:09
  important.
• 9:10
  We're rolling out new features like
• 9:12
  predictions and perps, so
• 9:14
  that you can train those.
• 9:16
  And we're really focused on making
• 9:17
  it so that it's the easiest place
• 9:20
  for folks to just get started.
• 9:21
  And so you can sign up in any
• 9:23
  country around the world with just
• 9:24
  an email and within
• 9:26
  seconds can be trading.
• 9:28
  Saving, earning rewards
• 9:31
  on your USDC and pretty
• 9:33
  much doing anything you want to with
• 9:34
  money, all powered by
• 9:36
  crypto behind the scenes.
• 9:38
  And so I think that's the direction
• 9:39
  that we're really leaning
• 9:41
  towards is making a simple
• 9:43
  experience that anyone can get
• 9:44
  started with basically instantly
• 9:45
  that gives you access to every
• 9:47
  product from a financial services
• 9:49
  perspective and is available
• 9:50
  globally.
• 9:52
  When it comes to the
• 9:54
  competitive landscape, obviously,
• 9:55
  there's been a huge focus
• 9:57
  on Robinhood Chain coming out and
• 10:00
  I saw plenty of people
• 10:02
  in the Ethereum ecosystem sharing
• 10:04
  screenshots of the revenue
• 10:06
  that Robinhood Chain was earning
• 10:08
  in the first couple of weeks after
• 10:09
  it had gone live and
• 10:11
  a bit of a pump in meme
• 10:13
  coins there and obviously,
• 10:15
  tokenized stocks trading.
• 10:16
  But it's very clear to see
• 10:18
  that an L2...
• 10:20
  Or a much faster infrastructure
• 10:22
  is what people want.
• 10:25
  But obviously that puts a stake in
• 10:27
  the ground.
• 10:28
  From the outside looking in, it's
• 10:29
  very much a direct competitor to
• 10:31
  base. What are your general thoughts
• 10:33
  on that coming to market?
• 10:35
  And has that kind of lit a fire
• 10:36
  under your bum, preferably
• 10:38
  to get
• 10:40
  cracking?
• 10:42
  Yeah, well, I'd say we see
• 10:44
  kind of folks entering the market as
• 10:46
  validation of what we've been doing.
• 10:47
  We've been working on building base
• 10:49
  now for for three years.
• 10:50
  We've built an incredible economy.
• 10:52
  You know, there's almost
• 10:54
  five billion dollars of assets that
• 10:56
  are in the DeFi ecosystem
• 10:58
  on base.
• 10:59
  We're seeing, you know, a billion
• 11:00
  plus of trading volume on a daily
• 11:01
  basis, you know, trillions
• 11:03
  of dollars of stable coins moving on
• 11:05
  our payment rails. And so I'd
• 11:08
  say we're excited about where we're
• 11:09
  at and.
• 11:10
  I think we feel like we're
• 11:12
  at the very beginning of a long
• 11:13
  journey to upgrade the global
• 11:15
  financial system.
• 11:17
  Maybe 1% of the way there and
• 11:19
  seeing folks like Robinhood,
• 11:21
  Stripe and others come in and say,
• 11:23
  hey, we want to follow a similar
• 11:24
  strategy. We want to kind of
• 11:26
  take a part of
• 11:28
  this technology stack that we have
• 11:30
  and bring it on chain.
• 11:31
  And I think that that's just like an
• 11:33
  awesome thing for the world.
• 11:35
  The more folks we have that are
• 11:37
  working to upgrade the system,
• 11:40
  the faster we're going to be able to
• 11:41
  do it. And the pie is so big that
• 11:43
  I'm not worried about, you
• 11:45
  know, feeling like boxed out or
• 11:47
  competitive as the primary dynamic.
• 11:50
  I will say, like, it's fun to
• 11:51
  compete with folks. I've always been
• 11:53
  an athlete. And that means that
• 11:55
  I like showing up and working my
• 11:57
  hardest and learning and seeing what
• 11:58
  people are doing and then just
• 12:00
  trying to get better. And so that's,
• 12:02
  I think, been energizing.
• 12:03
  But again, I feel like we're in
• 12:05
  a really good position.
• 12:07
  We've been building, we're going to
• 12:08
  keep building, and we're excited to
• 12:10
  have a lot of other folks building
• 12:11
  alongside us.
• 12:13
  I watched your
• 12:15
  appearance on Ansem's show,
• 12:17
  The Market Bubble, and obviously,
• 12:18
  you guys had a lot of fun in that
• 12:19
  show and thought it was a really
• 12:21
  great kind of candid conversation.
• 12:22
  I wanted to get your thoughts just
• 12:23
  on meme coins, because I
• 12:25
  think you tried to coin it
• 12:27
  differently. It was
• 12:29
  creator coins?
• 12:30
  Is that like the term that
• 12:32
  you like to go for?
• 12:33
  Do you still see a fundamental
• 12:35
  difference between that and
• 12:37
  meme coins?
• 12:38
  And what are your general thoughts
• 12:39
  on Ansems' approach to meme coins
• 12:40
  and how he kind revived
• 12:42
  what a lot of us were thinking was
• 12:44
  kind of just a dead narrative
• 12:46
  in this industry.
• 12:47
  Yeah, I think like memes,
• 12:50
  like what is dead will never die.
• 12:52
  Like I think people have called for
• 12:53
  the death of memes for many,
• 12:55
  many years and they
• 12:57
  aren't dead yet and I don't think
• 12:58
  they're gonna die.
• 12:59
  In general, my take on
• 13:01
  memes is both memes
• 13:03
  and content coins and creator coins,
• 13:05
  they're all forms of what I would
• 13:07
  call attention assets where
• 13:09
  they're basically trying to take the
• 13:11
  attention that all of us give
• 13:13
  to our screens, our devices,
• 13:15
  our scrolling.
• 13:16
  And translate that into
• 13:18
  kind of like financial value.
• 13:20
  And I'd say memes are doing that
• 13:22
  in the form of like taking kind of
• 13:24
  mimetic attention value.
• 13:26
  Creator coins are doing in the in
• 13:27
  the kind of taking the attention
• 13:29
  that a single creator attracts and
• 13:31
  directing that into value.
• 13:32
  Content, our thesis there
• 13:34
  was that you can even do that with
• 13:36
  like a single piece of content,
• 13:38
  which maybe could turn into a meme,
• 13:40
  maybe is connected to the creator.
• 13:42
  And I think that this
• 13:44
  is one of the most novel
• 13:45
  experimental,
• 13:48
  primordial soup areas of
• 13:50
  crypto.
• 13:51
  And it's also something
• 13:54
  that I think we're going to keep
• 13:56
  seeing a lot of experimentation
• 13:57
  around. And so I'm
• 13:59
  excited. I love what Ansem's doing.
• 14:01
  I think we've seen a ton of
• 14:03
  meme energy on base over the last
• 14:05
  three years.
• 14:06
  And I I think seeing
• 14:08
  folks continue experiment around
• 14:11
  how do we take the attention that
• 14:13
  all of us give to the internet and
• 14:15
  turn it into the financial value
• 14:16
  that crypto kind of enables through
• 14:18
  tokenization and then redistribute
• 14:20
  that financial value to the
• 14:22
  communities and the creators and the
• 14:24
  folks who create all
• 14:26
  the memes and
• 14:28
  the creativity that drives
• 14:30
  that attention. I think it's a
• 14:31
  totally worthy and exciting
• 14:33
  experiment and I'm excited
• 14:35
  to see it keep happening.
• 14:37
  And so I'd say broadly.
• 14:40
  Yeah, I'm fired up about what ANSIM
• 14:41
  is doing. Fired up to see more of it
• 14:42
  on base, and I think we're very
• 14:44
  early in that journey.
• 14:47
  I wanted to tell a little bit about
• 14:49
  agentic finance because I think it's
• 14:52
  kind of brewing, but it's
• 14:54
  going to hit us like a train when it
• 14:56
  finally properly unlocks.
• 14:58
  I think that that's the
• 15:00
  infrastructure that based Robinhood
• 15:01
  chain, a lot of L2s,
• 15:04
  Solana, a lot other competing
• 15:06
  L1s are really looking at
• 15:08
  unlocking because we all know
• 15:10
  that AI agents would
• 15:12
  be far better suited to using
• 15:14
  blockchain.
• 15:16
  Rails and not having
• 15:18
  to have KYC, etc.
• 15:20
  We're already seeing like X4-02, I
• 15:21
  think it was in April, had like
• 15:23
  $48 million and 85%
• 15:25
  flowing through base.
• 15:26
  So it looks like that's already
• 15:28
  happening. Can you talk a little bit
• 15:29
  about your thesis on agentic
• 15:31
  trading and what that's going to
• 15:33
  look like in the next six months to
• 15:34
  a year? Because AI is moving so
• 15:36
  quickly that it's
• 15:38
  very difficult to predict what's
• 15:39
  going to happen or even know what's
• 15:41
  gonna happen in a year's time.
• 15:42
  Yeah, it is moving really quickly.
• 15:45
  And it's been awesome to see that
• 15:46
  kind of get started and then grow
• 15:48
  quickly on base.
• 15:49
  And like you said, I think that
• 15:50
  something like 90%
• 15:53
  of Agenda X42 transactions are
• 15:55
  happening on base today.
• 15:56
  That's a mix of payments and
• 15:57
  trading. And I think it's only going
• 15:59
  to grow from here.
• 16:00
  I'd say my general thesis is that
• 16:02
  agents are kind
• 16:04
  of software-defined beings.
• 16:07
  And that means that the native
• 16:09
  form of money that they're gonna,
• 16:10
  you know, choose.
• 16:12
  Thank you.
• 16:13
  When they go to reach for value is
• 16:15
  gonna also be software.
• 16:16
  And that's what crypto is.
• 16:17
  Crypto is money as software that's
• 16:20
  running on these global decentralized
• 16:21
  rails that let anyone access
• 16:23
  it without having to sign up
• 16:25
  or KYC or do any of the
• 16:27
  kind of laborious things we've
• 16:28
  gotten used to in the legacy
• 16:29
  financial system.
• 16:30
  And so that means that agents can
• 16:32
  get a wallet, can get started, can
• 16:34
  transact, can buy content
• 16:36
  with X4 or two or pay
• 16:38
  other agents all
• 16:40
  instantly and in a language that
• 16:42
  they natively understand.
• 16:43
  And so I think starting with that
• 16:45
  kind of base assumption, this is the
• 16:46
  toolkit that agents are going to
• 16:47
  reach for.
• 16:49
  You then have to just think, okay,
• 16:50
  well, how big is that going to get?
• 16:52
  And it's like, I think there's gonna be
• 16:52
  billions, trillions of agents that
• 16:54
  are working both on behalf of humans
• 16:56
  and in more sovereign ways where
• 16:57
  they're actually setting their own
• 16:59
  goals and figuring out how to
• 17:00
  coordinate together. And they're
• 17:01
  going to be choosing crypto as the
• 17:03
  platform that they do that on.
• 17:04
  And so over the next few years, I
• 17:06
  think we'll see a pretty big
• 17:08
  explosion of.
• 17:09
  Different use cases of folks paying
• 17:11
  each other, of them trading
• 17:13
  and of them, you know, inventing
• 17:15
  new financial primitives that I
• 17:17
  think enable them to do things
• 17:18
  more quickly, more efficiently in
• 17:21
  a way that folks can capture more
• 17:22
  value. One thing that I'm super
• 17:24
  excited about that's kind of growing
• 17:25
  really quickly on base right now is
• 17:27
  this whole kind of space
• 17:29
  of tokenized inference.
• 17:30
  I don't know if you've seen this,
• 17:31
  but this is invented by
• 17:33
  the Venice team with
• 17:35
  DM, where they basically took
• 17:37
  inference, which is the
• 17:39
  the thing that you use to run an
• 17:40
  agent and tokenized it so that
• 17:42
  anyone could then trade
• 17:44
  and and kind of
• 17:46
  Find the fair market value of that
• 17:48
  inference and then agents could
• 17:49
  actually have sovereign access to it
• 17:51
  where they could hold the inference
• 17:52
  And use it over time in a way
• 17:54
  that they could have kind of a
• 17:55
  guarantee that they'd be able to
• 17:56
  continue to operate What that's then
• 17:58
  enabled is a whole market
• 18:00
  around the tokenized inference where
• 18:02
  people are buying and selling it at
• 18:04
  a discount, where that's enabling
• 18:06
  agents to then come in and get
• 18:07
  access to inference more cheaply.
• 18:09
  And then folks are building tons of
• 18:10
  demand sources around it where it's
• 18:12
  now like flowing in, in terms of
• 18:14
  demand to get access that cheaper
• 18:15
  inference. And so I think that kind
• 18:17
  of financial experimentation
• 18:21
  is kind of uniquely possible
• 18:23
  on chain. You can't have
• 18:25
  kind of a free market for inference
• 18:27
  that anyone can plug into, that
• 18:28
  anyone could build financial
• 18:29
  primitives on top of, and that
• 18:31
  anyone globally can kind of plug
• 18:33
  into from a demand perspective on
• 18:35
  any other platform in the world.
• 18:36
  And so seeing that happen on base, I
• 18:38
  think, is a really good indicator
• 18:40
  of where we're going.
• 18:41
  I think it's just going to get more
• 18:42
  and more complex and more and more
• 18:43
  powerful.
• 18:45
  That's beautiful. I really like that
• 18:46
  anecdote because we saw that, you
• 18:48
  know, the deep end kind of movement
• 18:49
  a year or two gain a head of
• 18:51
  steam and then kind of fall off a
• 18:53
  little bit. And I'm I'm curious as
• 18:55
  to why. But I guess it's just most
• 18:57
  people were a lot more willing to
• 18:59
  just pay for a, you know, entropic
• 19:01
  subscription or, you
• 19:03
  know, chat GPT subscription
• 19:05
  and then go and use these, you know,
• 19:06
  centralized models.
• 19:08
  But there is a whole world out
• 19:10
  there where we will use
• 19:12
  decentralized models.
• 19:13
  And then there are
• 19:15
  marketplaces for inference and all
• 19:17
  these kind of different things.
• 19:18
  So I really like that.
• 19:19
  I'm going to have to dig into that.
• 19:20
  I think the next time we
• 19:22
  have you back on the show.
• 19:24
  I wanted to chat to you a little bit
• 19:25
  about prediction markets,
• 19:27
  and we're also seeing a bit of an
• 19:29
  arms race there with all the big
• 19:30
  major centralized exchanges kind of
• 19:32
  onboarding prediction markets and
• 19:34
  giving that to users.
• 19:35
  I keep seeing hilarious tweets of
• 19:37
  people like, Coinbase, please stop
• 19:39
  pinging me with these notifications
• 19:41
  to trade on random prediction
• 19:42
  markets.
• 19:43
  The volumes will tell you otherwise
• 19:45
  that, you know, there's huge demand
• 19:46
  and people want to be playing with
• 19:48
  prediction markets.
• 19:49
  How do you see that playing out on
• 19:50
  base? And what's your, what's you're
• 19:51
  plan there?
• 19:52
  Yeah, I think prediction markets are
• 19:53
  obviously a huge and very
• 19:55
  fast growing category and
• 19:58
  it's permeating kind of day to day
• 19:59
  life. I was just at dinner last
• 20:00
  night with my family and we
• 20:02
  were talking about something and
• 20:04
  someone was like, well, what's
• 20:05
  whether the prediction markets say?
• 20:06
  And that's like a totally new
• 20:08
  phenomenon where a couple of years
• 20:10
  ago, maybe you like,
• 20:12
  you know, look on the Internet and
• 20:14
  see what people are saying on
• 20:14
  Twitter or you'd look to try and
• 20:16
  find a poll.
• 20:17
  But now it's like for pretty much
• 20:19
  any question about the future, you
• 20:20
  can go and see what the prediction
• 20:22
  markets say.
• 20:23
  And that is, that's pretty
• 20:25
  awesome. I mean, that is what we
• 20:26
  talked about 10 years ago,
• 20:28
  we were starting building cryptos,
• 20:31
  like, you know, free information is
• 20:33
  going to be enabled by open and
• 20:35
  free markets.
• 20:36
  And I feel like prediction markets
• 20:38
  are finally fulfilling that vision.
• 20:40
  And so it's just been awesome to
• 20:41
  see. And it's it's, it's had a
• 20:43
  really cool impact on culture,
• 20:45
  putting aside the, you know,
• 20:47
  growing pains that I think are
• 20:48
  inevitable whenever you're bringing
• 20:50
  a new technology to market.
• 20:51
  In terms of what we're seeing on
• 20:52
  base, we're seeing a lot of
• 20:54
  prediction market activity.
• 20:55
  We have A couple big
• 20:58
  apps and protocols that are driving
• 20:59
  that there's Limitless that
• 21:01
  has been around for a while that
• 21:03
  they invented that kind of like
• 21:05
  short time crypto
• 21:07
  prediction markets where you're kind
• 21:08
  of predicting what's the price going
• 21:10
  to be in 15 minutes that's now been
• 21:12
  widely adopted across Coinbase and
• 21:13
  Robinhood and Polymarket and Caoshi
• 21:15
  and so it's cool to see that
• 21:17
  innovation start on base with
• 21:18
  LimitLess we just saw
• 21:20
  another one called Predlaunch
• 21:22
  they saw a bunch of growth during
• 21:24
  the World Cup I think
• 21:26
  they had like, you know, $10 million
• 21:27
  or something of that, a volume,
• 21:29
  which is not huge in the grand
• 21:31
  scheme of things, but for a new
• 21:32
  prediction market that's trying to
• 21:33
  break through was excited to see
• 21:35
  that early traction.
• 21:36
  And I think you're going to stay
• 21:37
  focused really on this kind of
• 21:39
  exports use case.
• 21:40
  And so what we're trying to do is
• 21:42
  just figure out how do we make
• 21:43
  the chain work better for those
• 21:46
  use cases. And so that's
• 21:47
  making it faster, making it
• 21:49
  lower cost, giving prediction market
• 21:52
  builders tools that they
• 21:53
  need in order to.
• 21:54
  You know structure the markets in
• 21:56
  more effective ways and have them
• 21:58
  operate more efficiently And so
• 22:00
  I'm excited to see and
• 22:02
  unveil some of the stuff we're
• 22:03
  working on over the next few months
• 22:04
  But a lot of progress
• 22:06
  growth and adoption happening
• 22:07
  predictor markets and a lot it
• 22:09
  happening on base
• 22:12
  In your ex-post that you put
• 22:14
  out a few weeks ago, you're
• 22:16
  obviously very candid about this and
• 22:17
  you'd said that your bet on
• 22:19
  social had failed.
• 22:20
  Can you give us a postmortem of
• 22:22
  what your thesis was, why you
• 22:24
  think it didn't play out and maybe
• 22:26
  if that still has legs in
• 22:28
  the future, because we think back to
• 22:30
  things like Friend Tech that boom,
• 22:32
  boomed and bust.
• 22:33
  There are some great ideas out there
• 22:35
  that might just be ahead of their
• 22:36
  time and then come
• 22:38
  back around a few years later.
• 22:41
  Yeah, and I'd say the
• 22:44
  broad thesis was when
• 22:46
  we were looking, you know, a year
• 22:47
  and a half ago on kind of where
• 22:49
  crypto was and how we
• 22:51
  were thinking about how do we get
• 22:52
  the next big wave of users,
• 22:54
  I think the thesis was, hey,
• 22:57
  social networks are saying that most
• 22:58
  folks are spending most of their
• 22:59
  time on. They also have a really
• 23:01
  powerful virality effect.
• 23:02
  Where if you get the engine
• 23:04
  going,
• 23:06
  you are able to grow the network
• 23:08
  really quickly.
• 23:09
  What our bet was, was basically,
• 23:12
  hey, we want to go and
• 23:14
  figure out how do we get that viral
• 23:15
  effect, bringing people into crypto,
• 23:17
  and we're going to use tokenization
• 23:19
  as the driver to
• 23:20
  do that with creator coins and
• 23:24
  tokenizing content.
• 23:25
  I think the shift that happened at
• 23:27
  the beginning of this year is, as we
• 23:29
  reflected on 2025, what we
• 23:31
  saw was that we actually didn't need
• 23:33
  social to drive that growth.
• 23:35
  We had prediction markets breaking
• 23:37
  out, we had perps breaking out we
• 23:39
  had tokenization and stable coins
• 23:40
  breaking out which was honestly like
• 23:42
  a pretty different place than we
• 23:43
  were at the beginning of 2025 or
• 23:46
  even a little bit earlier than that
• 23:47
  and so that for us was really
• 23:49
  just like a shift in focus whereas
• 23:51
  like okay these things are working
• 23:53
  they're happening on base today
• 23:54
  let's lean in there,
• 23:56
  because we don't need
• 23:58
  something new in order to get the
• 23:59
  growth that we're looking for.
• 24:01
  And so do I think that that means
• 24:02
  that social with crypto rails is
• 24:04
  not going to happen?
• 24:05
  No, absolutely.
• 24:06
  I think that over time,
• 24:08
  crypto is going to permeate every
• 24:09
  single part of our society, because
• 24:11
  it's a foundation for a
• 24:13
  better system. And whether that's
• 24:14
  upgrading finance, or it's upgrading
• 24:16
  social networks, crypto,
• 24:18
  is this powerful tool that's going
• 24:19
  to let us build better,
• 24:20
  decentralized systems
• 24:23
  that people actually own and benefit
• 24:25
  from.
• 24:25
  Now, I think that over the next five
• 24:27
  years where there's the most product
• 24:29
  market fit is in upgrading finance.
• 24:30
  And that's what we're focused on.
• 24:32
  And I think, that's a ton of work to
• 24:33
  do.
• 24:35
  I thought it was pretty funny that
• 24:37
  you said in that tweet as well that,
• 24:39
  you know, Kobe might take
• 24:41
  base somewhere as the
• 24:43
  head of base you might not like.
• 24:45
  What did you mean by that?
• 24:46
  And like, what are you, what do you
• 24:47
  expecting from, you know him being
• 24:49
  the head of the app and where he
• 24:51
  might take it? Is it just because
• 24:52
  he's far more trading focused and
• 24:54
  maybe that's not your cup of
• 24:56
  tea?
• 24:57
  No, no.
• 24:58
  Look, I am
• 25:00
  a connoisseur of all kinds of
• 25:02
  assets on base and beyond,
• 25:05
  and, you know, I've spent a ton
• 25:07
  of time with traders.
• 25:08
  And I think that, like, in general,
• 25:09
  trading is one of the biggest demand
• 25:11
  drivers for base today.
• 25:12
  And so it's definitely not that.
• 25:13
  It's more that the app is,
• 25:16
  as it's going kind of trading app,
• 25:18
  it's just it's becoming less base
• 25:19
  centric.
• 25:20
  You know, like I think in a in a
• 25:22
  world where we're building one very
• 25:23
  narrow use case.
• 25:24
  The focus of the app was really on
• 25:26
  like, how do we specifically grow
• 25:28
  base and how do make this
• 25:30
  one use case that's built on base
• 25:32
  work? And I think as we've kind of
• 25:33
  broadened the aperture to
• 25:36
  trade everything, you're
• 25:38
  gonna trade assets everywhere.
• 25:39
  You're gonna add features from
• 25:41
  different networks where they're
• 25:42
  powering kind of the backend
• 25:43
  systems.
• 25:45
  And for the chain,
• 25:47
  that might not always be the best
• 25:48
  thing, but for growing the
• 25:49
  distribution and making the product
• 25:51
  the best, I think that's what you're
• 25:52
  going to have to do. And so that's
• 25:54
  really what I was talking about
• 25:55
  there is I think he's going to be
• 25:56
  focused on just building the best
• 25:57
  trading product.
• 25:59
  And I think that that is something
• 26:00
  where base is going to have to
• 26:01
  compete on a level.
• 26:04
  Playing field to make sure that
• 26:05
  we're providing the best assets, the
• 26:07
  deepest liquidity, the best
• 26:08
  execution, and everything
• 26:10
  that they need in order to
• 26:12
  build the app that they want to.
• 26:15
  I wanted to ask very quickly how
• 26:17
  much sort of AI integrations
• 26:19
  you guys have going now at
• 26:21
  base, building the app, you know,
• 26:22
  building different pieces of
• 26:23
  infrastructure.
• 26:24
  I think everyone's leaning into
• 26:26
  frontier models right now
• 26:27
  and what
• 26:30
  you can get out of them is like just
• 26:31
  incredible.
• 26:33
  And I mean, I find myself
• 26:35
  asking these questions more and more
• 26:36
  on a crypto show than I would
• 26:38
  like, but that is the nature of
• 26:41
  the world in which we live now.
• 26:42
  Yeah, and it's
• 26:44
  been insane to watch how
• 26:46
  crypto has kind of, I mean,
• 26:48
  how AI has transformed how we work
• 26:50
  over the last nine months.
• 26:51
  And really starting in December with
• 26:53
  the release of Opus 4.5, I think,
• 26:55
  that kicked off this wave of,
• 26:57
  particularly on the engineering
• 26:58
  side, just totally changing
• 27:01
  the way that we work.
• 27:02
  I mean for me personally, it's
• 27:04
  just been super fun.
• 27:06
  I am an engineer by trade, but I
• 27:08
  haven't written code for kind of
• 27:09
  like five years prior.
• 27:11
  Just because I've been focused on
• 27:12
  growing base and building the team,
• 27:14
  et cetera, et cetera, but now
• 27:16
  I'm writing code all the time.
• 27:19
  Like literally in between meetings,
• 27:20
  I'm like checking my agents
• 27:23
  and being like, are they making
• 27:24
  progress on the different things
• 27:25
  that I'm building, whether it's
• 27:26
  internal tools or.
• 27:27
  Building agents for our go-to-market
• 27:29
  teams to help them close
• 27:31
  more leads and grow the
• 27:33
  financing and trading and payments
• 27:35
  demand on base or it's
• 27:37
  literally shipping code on the
• 27:39
  chain itself and the products that
• 27:40
  we're building on top of the chain
• 27:41
  and so personally getting to
• 27:43
  go from oh like if
• 27:45
  I wanted to ship something it was
• 27:46
  going to be like a multi-week
• 27:48
  process and I was going have to
• 27:49
  constantly be like fighting
• 27:51
  everything so now I can like
• 27:52
  delegate that to agent.
• 27:54
  And it can go and ship the thing,
• 27:55
  and then I can do the kind of
• 27:57
  review, auditing,
• 27:59
  like kind of almost more managerial
• 28:01
  responsibilities
• 28:04
  that I'm pretty good at from having
• 28:05
  done them for a while, but still
• 28:07
  actually ship something without
• 28:08
  having to go and ask a team
• 28:10
  or do it myself.
• 28:11
  That has been awesome.
• 28:13
  And I'm just having so much fun
• 28:15
  getting to write code again.
• 28:17
  And then I think for our teams,
• 28:18
  we're seeing the same thing where...
• 28:19
  We have a smaller
• 28:21
  team shipping way faster
• 28:23
  at a higher
• 28:25
  quality
• 28:27
  bar, more security
• 28:29
  investment and more testing
• 28:31
  because we're able to build out
• 28:33
  these harnesses that kind of
• 28:35
  automate and do a lot of that work
• 28:37
  that previously humans had to do.
• 28:39
  And so what I think that that's
• 28:41
  leading to is you have these kind
• 28:43
  of engineers who are becoming super
• 28:44
  engineers, where they're literally
• 28:46
  doing things that are would
• 28:48
  have taken 10 engineers or 20
• 28:50
  engineers before just
• 28:53
  with one person, because they have a
• 28:54
  team of agents that are basically
• 28:56
  working around the clock to ship
• 28:58
  things. I'd say the biggest place
• 28:59
  where we're now kind of seeing
• 29:01
  growing pains is, okay, we now have
• 29:03
  all of this engineering capacity,
• 29:05
  how do we make sure we just have
• 29:06
  good ideas?
• 29:07
  And that like we have the
• 29:09
  clarity of thinking on the product
• 29:11
  side to take
• 29:13
  all that engineering capacity and
• 29:14
  turn it into real products that
• 29:16
  our customers love.
• 29:18
  And that is
• 29:20
  an art as much as it is
• 29:21
  a science and we're
• 29:24
  figuring out how do we do that
• 29:26
  as quickly as we can.
• 29:30
  Yeah, for sure.
• 29:31
  I think even just as a layman, like
• 29:32
  I'm a journalist and a broadcaster
• 29:34
  first and foremost, but what I've
• 29:36
  been able to do just to someone
• 29:37
  who's not really a dev is
• 29:39
  amazing, you know?
• 29:41
  It puts so much power at your
• 29:43
  fingertips, so it's been really
• 29:44
  great. My final question, Jesse,
• 29:45
  obviously, the sort of Bitcoin
• 29:47
  community was rocked last week by
• 29:49
  the cold card exploit, and it's
• 29:51
  got a lot of people thinking very
• 29:52
  deeply about the trust assumptions
• 29:54
  we have, the
• 29:56
  security of the systems we thought
• 29:57
  we were using.
• 29:59
  And especially just for Bitcoin is
• 30:00
  impacted like this by this,
• 30:02
  you know, like we did everything we
• 30:04
  did. We did the self custody and
• 30:07
  you know the unfortunately there was
• 30:08
  an issue and there was an exploit
• 30:10
  and they've lost all their Bitcoin.
• 30:11
  And it's kind of like a huge wake up
• 30:13
  call to everyone to be like we
• 30:14
  thought that things were secure and
• 30:16
  they worked well, but now we need to
• 30:17
  go back and audit everything.
• 30:19
  And there's been a huge movement.
• 30:21
  Led by the guys at Anchor Watch and
• 30:23
  I think Jack
• 30:25
  Dorsey's team at Block, reviewing
• 30:27
  a load of open source Bitcoin code
• 30:29
  and just submitting
• 30:31
  to all these teams all the
• 30:33
  vulnerabilities that are out there
• 30:34
  using frontier models like
• 30:36
  Kimi.ai.
• 30:38
  What's your general thoughts on this
• 30:39
  for the industry and do you think
• 30:41
  it's a big wake-up call?
• 30:47
  Hmm
• 30:50
  I mean, I think it's definitely a
• 30:51
  wake up call that we're
• 30:53
  entering a new era where we're
• 30:56
  going to have more enabled
• 30:58
  attackers with AI who
• 31:00
  are going to be trying to figure out
• 31:01
  how to, you know, break the systems
• 31:03
  that we use to secure basically
• 31:04
  everything that we do.
• 31:06
  I'd say I'm pretty optimistic that
• 31:08
  on the flip
• 31:10
  side, we're also going to much more
• 31:11
  enabled defenders who are able
• 31:13
  to kind of aggressively audit
• 31:15
  everything that we're building and
• 31:17
  use AI tools to make it so that
• 31:19
  we can have increasing confidence
• 31:21
  that we're not going to be at a high
• 31:23
  risk place. So I
• 31:25
  don't take it as like the rebuke of
• 31:26
  self custody. I think self custody
• 31:28
  is going to end up being the way
• 31:30
  that almost everyone
• 31:31
  transacts over time.
• 31:33
  But I do think that that's going to
• 31:34
  take time.
• 31:35
  It's not going to be a transition
• 31:36
  that happens overnight.
• 31:37
  And it's going require us to build
• 31:39
  systems that make it so
• 31:41
  that self-custody has the
• 31:43
  same level of assurances
• 31:45
  and safety.
• 31:47
  As putting your money in a
• 31:49
  bank or putting your money in
• 31:50
  Coinbase where they're managing all
• 31:52
  that custody for you.
• 31:53
  And so I
• 31:55
  think that this is a good learning
• 31:56
  and it's a good step.
• 31:58
  Obviously really sad to see
• 32:00
  and I'm
• 32:02
  hopeful that people are going to
• 32:03
  find ways to recover the funds
• 32:06
  but yeah I think still
• 32:08
  optimistic about self-custody for
• 32:10
  sure.
• 32:11
  Yeah, I remain so.
• 32:14
  And yeah, I mean, I was pushing up,
• 32:15
  like pushing back against a lot of
• 32:17
  people saying like, oh, just custody
• 32:18
  of Bitcoin and, you know, get
• 32:19
  exposure through Bitcoin ETFs.
• 32:21
  Like, no, if you want to use Bitcoin
• 32:22
  as money, you still need to,
• 32:24
  you take full control of it.
• 32:26
  Obviously do it responsibly and make
• 32:28
  sure that you do as much homework
• 32:30
  as you can.
• 32:31
  But self custody is still in my
• 32:33
  mind, so important for the industry.
• 32:35
  It's the basis of everything.
• 32:37
  100%. Yeah. And if you're looking
• 32:39
  for a great self custody solution
• 32:41
  for your Bitcoin, you can use the
• 32:42
  base app.
• 32:44
  It's native Bitcoin custody.
• 32:46
  You can move your assets in there.
• 32:48
  There's I think a couple of billion
• 32:49
  dollars of assets that
• 32:51
  are in the base up and it's
• 32:54
  built by the best at
• 32:56
  Coinbase who are really focused
• 32:58
  on making sure that you can do self
• 33:00
  custody in easy and secure way.
• 33:02
  So that's a great option for folks
• 33:04
  who are
• 33:06
  Yeah, just to add to
• 33:08
  that, and before we wrap up the
• 33:09
  show, I think I've seen lots and
• 33:10
  lots of really trusted
• 33:13
  people in the industry literally
• 33:15
  saying this, like one of the issues,
• 33:17
  and not to bash CoinKite, is that
• 33:18
  it's a very small team, very niche
• 33:20
  team, Bitcoin-only wallet,
• 33:23
  it doesn't have the size and the
• 33:25
  expertise of perhaps some of the
• 33:26
  other bigger players in the space,
• 33:28
  the treasurers, the ledgers,
• 33:30
  the Coinbase engineering team that's
• 33:32
  built yourself custodial
• 33:33
  infrastructure. So.
• 33:35
  Sometimes you do have to trust
• 33:37
  people that have a lot more
• 33:38
  resource, a lot more expertise,
• 33:41
  um, as much as we want to support
• 33:42
  small businesses and people that are
• 33:44
  passionate about certain things,
• 33:46
  mistakes can happen. And this is why
• 33:47
  we do kind of as society
• 33:49
  tend to gravitate towards these
• 33:51
  things. But Jesse, thank you so much
• 33:52
  for your time. Thank you for
• 33:53
  chatting to us today.
• 33:55
  Uh, we will catch up with you soon,
• 33:56
  uh, to the audience.
• 33:57
  Thank you so for joining us on the
• 33:59
  starting block. We will be back
• 34:00
  tomorrow to wrap up the week.
• 34:02
  If you missed any of our interviews
• 34:04
  with our big name guests.
• 34:05
  Go and check out our YouTube
• 34:06
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• 34:07
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• 34:09
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• 34:10
  more people can catch up on this
• 34:11
  conversation with Jesse.
• 34:13
  We will catch you tomorrow.
• 34:14
  Have a fantastic one.