Latest / Martyr's Row / Ep. 20 - Holy Apostle and SLAVE OWNER!?

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Ep. 20 - Holy Apostle and SLAVE OWNER!? · Martyr's Row

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  Philemon The Maniah of 22 November speaks of
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  Philemon as a holy apostle who, in company with
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  Aphia, Archippus, and Onissimus, had been martyred
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  at Colossi during the first general persecution
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  in the reign of Nero. In the list of the seventy
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  apostles attributed to Dorotheus of Tyre, Philemon
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  was described as bishop of Gaza, died A .D. 68.
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  These are the secret sayings which the living
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  Jesus spoke and which Didymus Judas Thomas wrote
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  down. And he said, whoever finds the interpretation
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  of these sayings will not experience death. 114.
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  Simon Peter said to him, let Mary leave us for
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  women are not worthy of life. Jesus said, I myself
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  shall lead her in order to make her male. So
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  that she too may become a living spirit resembling
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  you males for every woman who will make herself
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  male will enter the kingdom of heaven the gospel
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  according to Thomas Amen Oh, welcome to Martyrs
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  Row. They're like, yeah, we're done. I thought
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  it would be funny to read it that way and then
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  keep reading while I'm laughing because that's
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  like the cold open with the martyr reading. Yeah.
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  Like if we get caught up on something, we just
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  reset. Like that's one like veil veil behind
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  the curtain veil behind the curtain. The moment.
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  That's the only. The reading at the very beginning
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  is the only thing that we stop and redo. Everything
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  else we just keep pushing on. Yeah, yeah, we
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  just figure it out as we go. But the opening,
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  we want to respect that and honor that. But not
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  the gospel according to Thomas. Have you read
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  this? I've never actually read it. Oh, okay.
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  But as soon as you started reading, I was like,
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  I know exactly what he's reading from. I thought
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  so. I know bits and pieces of... the other apocryphal
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  gospels, but I've never actually sat and read
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  them. Okay, so the weird thing about the Gospel
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  of Thomas, first of all, it's not written by
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  Thomas. Shocker. And consistently the Catholic
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  Church and every Protestant church and all the
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  human people, they consider it a heresy. I wonder
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  why Like not just apocryphal work, but they consider
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  it a heresy so but the funny thing is is like
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  The gospel of Thomas is just 114 sayings hmm.
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  It's just a list of things that were said so
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  like because the idea is these are all the sayings
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  that Didymus Judas Thomas wrote down that were
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  secret sayings Which he gathered while he was
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  like with Jesus These are all just their inside
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  jokes. Yeah, that's that's kind of the idea behind
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  the gospel of Thomas is like the gospel Thomas
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  is like Hey, you ever wonder what like when boys
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  were talking? Yeah And Jesus is like don't worry
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  about the ladies. I'll make them all men what
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  that's not true what's funny about that and follow
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  me with follow me here it's like let's go on
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  this journey Paul let's all go on this journey
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  it's like at least for me and some of my friend
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  groups okay we'll make a bunch of jokes yeah
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  that none of us agree with okay just because
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  we think it's funny yeah yeah yeah so it's like
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  we'll joke about like male and women like men
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  and women like male and women male and you know
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  the other lesser human you know what I mean but
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  it's like yeah it's like jokes about that none
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  of us mean anything by it right but it's just
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  funny to joke about sure and it's like there's
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  no truth to it at all yeah and it's like I it
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  makes you wonder it's like did Jesus joke about
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  that we've already established that you kind
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  of live in the bro space Yeah, bro. Yeah, bruh.
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  The bro -sphere. The bro -sphere. But isn't that
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  crazy? OK, so I want to read it one more time,
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  because what an insane thing. That's such a wild
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  thing to say. Well, because, so like - What are
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  you actually reminds me of? What? Maybe I shouldn't
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  say this. It reminds me of something that good
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  old Joseph Smith had written. What did Joseph
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  Smith write? There is actually an animation about
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  this. What? About where, why... The Mormon explanation
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  for why there are different races on the earth,
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  especially black people. Oh, interesting. And
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  it's pretty racist. That makes sense. Yeah, their
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  belief was that they're more sinful. That was
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  the... Oh. That's crazy. It's pretty wild. So
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  that's the Mormon belief. At least the old Mormon
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  belief. I'm sure they've distanced themselves
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  from it, hopefully. Okay. But there's an animation
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  where Jesus is healing this guy who's black and
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  then he heals him and he becomes white. Oh my
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  gosh. It's like, that's bad. That's insane. It's
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  really bad. That's so crazy. But that's what
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  this reminds me of. Where it's like, it's so
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  ridiculous. Yeah. But that does make me think
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  about I was actually just talking to my sister
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  the other day Maybe I shouldn't say that but
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  sorry if you're listening Only if she wants to
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  enter the kingdom of heaven according to the
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  gospel of Thomas He had Judas in his name It's
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  his middle name Yikes. But we're talking about
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  like, you know, the thing that's difficult is
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  I think things like that, like the Mormon belief.
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  So I used to think like Joseph Smith was like,
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  all right, an angel appeared to him in America
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  and he says it was Jesus. And it's like, I used
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  to think like this, and correct me if I get any
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  of that wrong. Because you look at me kind of
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  like I'm not sure but okay. No, you're good.
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  I mean so far as far as I know you're correct
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  Okay, that's what I yeah, like I think that was
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  that's kind of the big premise of the origin
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  Is that like Jesus before he left he came over
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  to America? Yeah, and he put like stone tablets
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  in the ground those plates Yeah, the plates and
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  then Joseph Smith finds them. I can't really
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  silver. They were gold. I think they were silver
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  plates. I don't know probably whatever they had
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  back then. I can't remember the material, but.
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  But yeah, some type of precious metal. Sorry,
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  he just stuck them in a hat. So he finds them,
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  whatever, and then he has a vision of Jesus,
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  right? Something like that. Sorry, Mormons. Correct
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  us in the comments. Yeah, well please do, that
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  would be super interesting. Actually fun. But
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  within that, I used to think like, oh, the guy
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  was just like, He's just making stuff up. He's
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  just like, whatever. But then I also think about
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  how long ago that was and how there's still a
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  thriving community that are part of, that are
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  still kind of arguably, it's hard to be like,
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  hey, by the way, Mormons are not orthodox Christian.
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  They're not Christians in the tradition of the
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  Hebrew Bible. Yeah, yeah, um, but like they're
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  called Christians still and it's this weird thing.
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  It's like this keeps I'm not sure why we haven't
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  just separate disconnects. Yeah. Yeah, I'm not
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  sure why that hasn't just been like a clear separation
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  Well, I think that's so that's the one thing
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  that's I find fascinating about the Mormon religion
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  is specifically okay is so In Ohio where I grew
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  up in, Northeast, Ohio. There's a big Mormon
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  community there. They've got a temple. Okay and
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  I went and visited the temple when I was in school.
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  But you can't go in it though, right? Yeah, for
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  the temple they did like visitations and stuff
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  so you could go see it. Really? I didn't think
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  you were allowed inside. Oh no, they let us in.
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  Oh. We did like a tour and they showed us and
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  they told us the history of the building and
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  everything. It was pretty fascinating. Yeah.
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  And it was interesting because, and so, sorry,
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  the Mormons are gonna get mad at me for this,
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  but it's like Joseph Smith was outed as just
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  making it up like he didn't know what he was
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  talking about. He's even like in his translations
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  like they basically got him to admit like I have
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  no clue how to read this. I'm just making it
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  up as I go. OK. Sorry guys. But one thing I will
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  say is there were things that did happen that
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  were real. Yeah. That I think are very interesting.
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  Yeah. So at this temple when it was first built
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  they had a they had a ceremony there service
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  kind of like the inauguration. And according
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  to the story surrounding the building and inside
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  the building while they were worshiping, there
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  were angels everywhere that people could see.
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  They were worshiping alongside them. And it's
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  like, that's fascinating because it's like, okay,
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  what was happening? You know what I mean? Yeah,
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  so that's what I was talking to my sister about.
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  I think I used to think all these people are
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  just making stuff up. The problem that I have
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  with that now is a couple of things. One of them
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  is, Just because I didn't experience something
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  doesn't allow me to then go, well, everybody
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  else's experience is not true. Yeah. Yeah. What's
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  actually true is way more scary than me just
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  going, only my experiences matter. Yeah. Do you
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  know what I mean? Yeah, absolutely. What's way
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  more scary is the truth is, is they probably
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  did experience something the way I've experienced
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  things, but not experienced the same things.
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  I agree. Hopefully. Meaning like I could have
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  been exposed to things by people who were Masquerading
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  in a way that I didn't even realize Yeah, so
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  like like that's that's the thing is like when
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  when we go all right well Jesus appeared to Joseph
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  Smith. It's like okay, but the Bible actually
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  says that the devil He masquerades as an angel
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  of light yes, so What does that mean? It means
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  he pretends to be Jesus. So, that's terrifying.
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  Because then I go, well, yeah, Joseph Smith's
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  probably making a lot up, but he probably was
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  visited by... Something visited him. Something
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  masquerading as an angel of light. And then the
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  temple, like, were their spiritual beings, they
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  called them angels, but what are the angels that,
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  like... Cherub or the ones that were cast out
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  of heaven or the sons of God or the like the
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  spirits like it's all This spiritual realm and
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  their actual things happening and they can pretend
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  like they're something else. Absolutely I think
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  that's a fallacy we can fall into thinking that
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  oh They fell from heaven now. They're grotesque.
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  Yeah, exactly Where did you get that from like
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  they're not allowed to hide? Yeah, or they're
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  not allowed to be the truth, right? Yeah, it's
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  like hey, I'm the devil like When why is he gonna
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  do that right unless that's who you want to meet
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  yeah well, and it is kind of interesting because
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  it doesn't seem like actual angel messengers
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  or cherub guardian angels or any anything like
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  that It doesn't seem like they hide themselves
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  right because they have to say like don't be
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  afraid yeah, yeah, but the the Evil spirits tend
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  to have to yeah But not necessarily in representation
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  it just says that it warns us the Bible warns
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  us that they'll appear to us in imitation of
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  something else which is why it even goes to like
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  Paul saying like It's only this Jesus and and
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  no other gospel if anybody else comes to you
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  preaching another gospel Yeah, even if angels
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  come to you preaching another gospel, and I think
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  that's the biggest thing that we forget sometimes
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  Yeah, yeah is that angels can preach? Yeah, probably
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  pretty good Probably pretty good. They've been
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  around a while. But they might be preaching a
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  different gospel. Yes. Kind of like Mormonism.
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  Yeah. Which is a different gospel. Absolutely.
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  And so is the gospel according to Thomas. It's
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  very different. It's a different gospel. But
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  what a wild thing because I feel like right before
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  it too because it's a bunch of like kind of misplaced
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  statements. But it says things like like 112
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  says Jesus said woe to the flesh that depends
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  on the soul. Woe to the soul that depends on
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  the flesh. Okay. Nice. And then 113 says, his
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  disciples said to him, when will the kingdom
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  come? Jesus said, it will not come by waiting
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  for it. It will not be a matter of saying here
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  it is or there it is. Rather the kingdom of the
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  father is spread out upon the earth and men do
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  not see it. Is that? Is him basically like a
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  watch pot is never boiling? It feels like these
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  are things that like like Jesus is just like
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  writing He's like starting to write out what
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  he's thinking and then as he's writing he's like
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  nah He crumbles it up and throws it in the trash.
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  He's like I want that So these are all like the
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  Jesus ideas that he just threw in the trash while
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  Jesus is writing his book You know what I mean?
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  He's like, no, no, scratch that. Which, by the
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  way, that didn't happen. I'm just... But that's
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  what this feels like. Thomas is going to write
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  that down. He's like, he did what now? OK. But
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  isn't that crazy, though? Simon Peter said to
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  him, let Mary leave us, for women are not worthy
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  of life. It's crazy. Jesus said, don't worry.
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  I'm going to make her a man. That's basically
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  what it says. No, no, it's okay. You're right.
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  Women aren't worthy of life. You're correct.
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  I'm gonna make her a man. The good news, I've
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  come to redeem women to be men. How many drugs
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  do you think that guy was on? Yeah, well that's
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  a whole other thing. That's true. But isn't that
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  wild? So if anybody tries to tell you that the
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  gospel according to Thomas is truth. Listen to
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  them. Only if you're a man. Because they probably
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  have some wild things to say. That's a good point.
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  And then comment. What they say because we want
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  to read it to you. Yeah ask them for lunch It's
• 15:38
  kind of like meeting someone who's in like a
• 15:40
  pyramid scheme You know, it's like in the pyramid.
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  Yeah, and it's like I want to hear what you have
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  to say I don't I'm not gonna buy it. No, no,
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  but I only sell me I sell me. Yeah, what you
• 15:49
  got? So on behalf of Mars road be careful out
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  there three two one First come, Stephen, after
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  Jesus If I told you how, you wouldn't believe
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  us You called him great James from Galilee, the
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  second son of Zebedee Shout out to the faith
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  heroes on Martyrs Row We remember those who died
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  Shout out to the faith heroes on Martyrs Row
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  We remember those who died on Martyrs Row Philemon
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  was different, he owned slaves Onissimus missed
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  it, Paul showed grace He paid for the price of
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  his friend Even though he was a Roman citizen
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  We remember those who died on martyrs row Shout
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  out to the faith heroes on martyrs row We remember
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  those who died on martyrs row Then came Paul,
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  we all know 13 letters spent time in prison They
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  tried to stone him once But Nero caught him by
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  the neck Shout out to the faith heroes on Martyrs
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  Row We remember those who died on Martyrs Row
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  Shout out to the faith heroes on Martyrs Row
• 18:27
  What a treat. I'm not sure if everybody caught
• 18:31
  all that. So that was one that we like I kind
• 18:37
  of wrote that somewhere between yesterday and
• 18:39
  today. I love that. And like definitely the second
• 18:43
  verse was way off balance at the end, but I just
• 18:46
  kind of kept it together and then kept going.
• 18:49
  It just kind of worked. I like the third verse
• 18:51
  you did. That was fun. The third one, the low
• 18:53
  verse on Paul. Yeah, it was great. I thought
• 18:55
  they stoned him once. Yeah. But then Nero got
• 18:59
  him by the neck. I was like, dang. So that's
• 19:02
  actually interesting because Paul could have
• 19:05
  been or would potentially have been crucified.
• 19:09
  Yeah. but because of the persecution at the time,
• 19:13
  and his Roman citizenship, he didn't have to
• 19:17
  be crucified. Yeah, because I think it was too,
• 19:21
  it was like too gruesome for a Roman citizen.
• 19:24
  That's what it was. So they had to give him some
• 19:26
  kind of honor or respect for that, for that status.
• 19:29
  Which is wild. Right? That's crazy. And it's
• 19:32
  funny because like... That's a big part of his
• 19:33
  ministry too, him just flexing his citizenship.
• 19:36
  I know. It's crazy. I think we could do, I can
• 19:40
  do, like I like how you were doing the melody
• 19:42
  and then split to the harmony. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 19:45
  But we can actually do the... Just get the octave.
• 19:57
  Like there's a bunch of... There's a bunch in
• 20:00
  there. Shout out to the faith heroes Like the
• 20:03
  melody is actually pretty low on the chorus Yeah,
• 20:05
  yeah, which I like doing that where like there's
• 20:07
  a lot of energy in the verses and then the chorus
• 20:09
  has it an interesting hook Yeah, but it's actually
• 20:12
  easier to sing somehow. You know what I mean?
• 20:15
  Yeah, it's like because it has energy It doesn't
• 20:16
  have to be like way up at the top of your range
• 20:18
  Yeah, cuz I feel like you built energy up a lot
• 20:21
  in the verses. Yeah to where yet when you hit
• 20:23
  that Yeah, you want to try it again? Let's do
• 20:26
  it and then you can kind of just jump in as we
• 20:28
  go Okay, sweet. So I'll do each chorus twice.
• 20:31
  Okay, sweet. Cool. So we'll see if I can get
• 20:34
  it better this time. Not sure. Okay. It is hard
• 20:41
  to like snap and go right into a song. It's really
• 20:43
  hard. We've done it a few times. Yeah. So, all
• 20:48
  right, here's one last time. And then onward
• 20:51
  we go. Upward and onward. Also, we've been mentioning
• 20:53
  Philemon a lot. I wonder why. We'll see. Two,
• 20:57
  three, four. Shout out to the faith heroes on
• 21:31
  Martyrs Row We remember those who died on Martyrs
• 21:39
  Row Shout out to the faith heroes on Martyrs
• 21:46
  Row We remember those who died on Martyrs Row
• 21:58
  One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three.
• 22:08
  One, two, three. One, two, three. One, two, three.
• 22:29
  Shout out to the faith heroes on martyr's row.
• 22:36
  We remember those who died on martyr's row. And
• 22:44
  then came Paul. We all know him. 13 letters spent
• 22:50
  time in prison. They tried to stone him once.
• 22:56
  But Nero got it. We remember those who died on
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  martyr's row Shout out to the faith heroes on
• 23:18
  martyr's row We remember those who died on martyr's
• 23:26
  row On martyr's row one all right here we are
• 23:37
  maybe we should have opened this one with a reading
• 23:39
  as well it's just like everything opens with
• 23:41
  a reading the reading of philemon maybe i don't
• 23:44
  know why i thought of that but uh i mean it's
• 23:47
  a short one it's a good one for us to pick it's
• 23:51
  a good one for us to pick yeah it's actually
• 23:53
  um paul's shortest letter is it yeah philemon
• 23:58
  is paul's shortest letter which is funny um Philemon's
• 24:03
  our guide today. If you haven't read Philemon,
• 24:05
  you might think, didn't Philemon write it? Or
• 24:09
  Phil -a -mon. Phil -a -mon? Phil -a -mon. Depending
• 24:13
  on if you're from Italy or not. Yeah. Phil -a
• 24:16
  -mon. Phil -a -mon. My name is a Phil -a -mon.
• 24:18
  We do Italian a lot. Yeah, we do. It's fun. It's
• 24:21
  a fun accent. It's very bubbly. It rolls off
• 24:24
  your tongue. Things just flow really well. I'm
• 24:26
  also mostly Italian. Are you really? Yeah. That's
• 24:30
  cool. I don't know if we've talked about that.
• 24:31
  I'm not Italian at all. Yeah, you're mostly European.
• 24:33
  I'm adjacent, though. You're not. I'm just a
• 24:38
  European man. I feel like you said that. I probably
• 24:42
  have. OK. Mostly Slovenian. OK. Which is next
• 24:46
  to Italy. Scary? Right next to Italy. Yeah. Mostly.
• 24:51
  Scary. Mostly just Midwestern? Yeah, mostly Midwestern
• 24:55
  basement emo. Well, that's like the Pennsylvania
• 24:59
  is Pennsylvania Midwest Don't think too hard
• 25:06
  I think technically it is Okay Maybe it might
• 25:10
  just be part of the like the Appalachian. Well,
• 25:12
  it's on this side of the Great Lakes Yeah, I
• 25:16
  don't I'm trying to think if it goes down. I
• 25:18
  think it does. It's on like the bottom of one
• 25:21
  Yeah, cuz I know where the Ohio is the furthest
• 25:23
  east Midwest state. Okay. Oh, yeah, that's right
• 25:27
  So actually, Pennsylvania is probably not. I
• 25:29
  think that might just be lumped in with everything
• 25:30
  else. Because they're over this way. New England?
• 25:33
  Yeah. What's that upper region called? What are
• 25:36
  we talking about? I don't know. We're not...
• 25:39
  We don't do this. Yeah. We don't do American...
• 25:45
  Geography. Yeah, I was gonna say archaeology.
• 25:48
  That's how much we don't do it Although we did
• 25:51
  talk about to ancient near -east Yeah, I know
• 25:55
  more about that than the northeast region of
• 25:58
  my own nation I'm in the south. I don't need
• 26:02
  to know what's going on. It doesn't help me study
• 26:03
  the Bible Unless you're Mormon. Yeah true that
• 26:08
  Well, no, isn't it like New Jersey or New York
• 26:13
  I'm pretty sure it was. Yeah, and then it was
• 26:16
  it might have been New York actually. Yeah, no
• 26:18
  one would claim and then they kicked him out
• 26:20
  Yeah, yeah Good point. Sorry, New Jersey. Good
• 26:23
  point. Sorry, New Jersey. No, I've actually I've
• 26:25
  been in New Jersey That's all Yeah, I have been
• 26:38
  there film on actually the only two states On
• 26:41
  the east side of the US I haven't been to is
• 26:43
  Maine and Vermont. Those are the only two. On
• 26:46
  the whole east side? The whole east side. Huh.
• 26:50
  Yeah. I haven't thought about it. Yeah. I'm not
• 26:52
  going to go through them now, but... No, there's
• 26:54
  a lot. Yeah. I think I've gone all the way up
• 26:56
  to at least Maryland. Okay. Yeah. And then what's
• 26:59
  above that? Above Maryland? Welcome to American
• 27:03
  geography. You've got a map in front of me. Is
• 27:07
  it Delaware? Delaware doesn't exist. It's not
• 27:10
  real. It's the first state, but that's it That
• 27:14
  one could be anywhere on the map in my mind.
• 27:16
  It could just be anywhere. You plug it in anyway
• 27:19
  Who knows No, but Delaware is one of the 13 colonies
• 27:26
  colonies It's the first state actually Of course.
• 27:32
  That's all it has going for it. Sorry, Delaware.
• 27:35
  They just keep moving it out of the way. I'm
• 27:37
  sure Delaware's... Actually, one of my friends
• 27:39
  from Ohio says Delaware is his favorite state.
• 27:42
  Is that why he lives in Ohio? I don't believe
• 27:43
  him, but... What would qualify that for him?
• 27:48
  I think he just had the most fun when he was
• 27:49
  in Delaware. Okay. So maybe that was like...
• 27:52
  That's cool. That was like the only time he ever
• 27:54
  hung out with his dad. Was that too dark? Talking
• 28:02
  about emo. Well, he is an Ohio kid. Yeah, true.
• 28:07
  Anyway. I wish him well. Him and his dad. Oh,
• 28:16
  yeah. This is a really old song. It's called
• 28:20
  What Did Delaware? What Did Delaware? And the
• 28:25
  whole song That sounds like one of our episode
• 28:27
  titles Yeah, it's taking puns from states Oh,
• 28:31
  okay Yeah, and it still doesn't make sense What
• 28:33
  did Della, like the name Della, what did she
• 28:36
  wear? Oh, I don't know a Della I don't either
• 28:40
  I know Adele Oh? Uh? Uh... Yikes Yikes Anyway
• 28:50
  Phil? Philly. Hey, Philly. Philly, Philadelphia.
• 28:58
  Now we're talking. OK, we're there. OK, we're
• 29:01
  back. Oh, Slovenia. Slovenia? Slovenia? Yeah.
• 29:05
  That's how we got there. You're right. Because
• 29:07
  you're from Philemon. We had to get all the way
• 29:14
  around. No, you're from Filimone. Oh, fair enough.
• 29:19
  Filimone. Yeah. Yeah, I'm more like, my heritage
• 29:27
  goes to Sicily. OK. Which is like the Australia
• 29:30
  of Italy. Because I would have thought you guys
• 29:31
  were more like Welsh or something. I could see
• 29:34
  that. Yeah. But no. Interesting. We're like,
• 29:41
  central Florida. to Alabama, to Sicily. Which
• 29:47
  is so crazy, I know. Well that's like the, so
• 29:50
  like my, I found out that on my dad's side, they
• 29:55
  were in Alabama and then went to Georgia, and
• 29:58
  then they moved down to Fort Meade, which is
• 30:02
  like still a one stop light town, that's like
• 30:06
  an hour south of us, it's less than an hour south
• 30:08
  of us, but where we are right now. His family
• 30:13
  moved down there in like 1905. Holy moly. Like
• 30:19
  one of the first people there. Like got in a
• 30:21
  wagon. Well no, because it was like a mining
• 30:24
  town already. Which is crazy. But I just can't
• 30:28
  imagine that. Like 1905. So like my dad's side
• 30:32
  of the family has been in central Florida for
• 30:36
  over 100 years. Wow. Yeah, that's wild. That's
• 30:39
  some roots. Yeah, it is. It's a Florida man.
• 30:42
  Very weird. But it's weird that you would like,
• 30:44
  why is Fort Meade where you stop? But it is Fort
• 30:47
  Meade, so it was a fort. So it was probably just
• 30:49
  for the jobs. Yeah, basically. But like now it's
• 30:53
  like not a thriving city. But unless you, you
• 30:58
  know, unless you're probably related to me and
• 31:02
  your cattle. Yeah, yeah, true. Yeah, because
• 31:04
  my cousins own a bunch of like citrus and cattle
• 31:07
  down there. Oh, that's pretty sick. Yeah, it's
• 31:09
  cool. They're cool. That's actually really cool.
• 31:12
  Yeah. Lots of cows. They're fun. Philemon? I
• 31:15
  don't know why I love that accent, but... Lots
• 31:17
  of cows. Lots of cows. I can't quite get there.
• 31:22
  I'm not that great at it, but... Philemon. Philemon.
• 31:25
  Yeah. What you got? Yeah, so I don't even know
• 31:30
  what we said or haven't said. I don't think we
• 31:33
  said anything yet. We haven't said anything yet.
• 31:36
  We're still kind of in our front segment. Yeah,
• 31:38
  it's true. Let's get into it. So Philemon. Yes.
• 31:44
  It was a letter that Paul wrote while in prison
• 31:47
  to Philemon. OK. So it's kind of interesting.
• 31:52
  And on one hand, we read a little bit about him
• 31:54
  in the opening. Yeah. It's like, OK, so like.
• 31:58
  who is this guy and why is Paul writing to him.
• 32:00
  And I think it's interesting just for like a
• 32:02
  synopsis of like what's happening in the letter.
• 32:04
  So again, it's one of Paul's shortest letters
• 32:06
  and it's actually the only one where he doesn't
• 32:08
  explicitly talk about Christ's death and resurrection.
• 32:11
  Gotcha. But it's still in there, you know, in
• 32:14
  a kind of like a, in a clever way, I think. Yeah.
• 32:18
  Yeah, yeah. But Paul, do you have a question?
• 32:20
  I do have a question. Okay. Love I'm just talking
• 32:23
  about Philemon. I know I'm like what are we talking
• 32:25
  about? I just like but so we haven't asked the
• 32:27
  question yet I'm kind of building up Okay, so
• 32:30
  but in this it's like okay, so Onesimus okay,
• 32:37
  they don't know anything. We're talking about
• 32:39
  you don't know what we're talking about But so
• 32:41
  he's this dude who just finds points like hey,
• 32:44
  so Philemon is my slave owner Okay, I was like
• 32:47
  wait what? Yeah, so my question to you is We
• 32:51
  read that Philemon... We haven't read anything.
• 32:54
  No, in the very beginning. In the opening. Oh,
• 32:56
  you're right. Yeah. That he's a holy apostle.
• 33:00
  Oh, yeah. And then we found out that he's a slave
• 33:01
  owner. I was trying to figure out where you were
• 33:05
  going. I was like, I don't know where I was at.
• 33:06
  So Philemon, my question to you, Stephen, Sicilian
• 33:09
  Howell. Well, now they all know my full name.
• 33:13
  Oh, yeah. I Love if they think that's my full
• 33:29
  name. I would love that. Yeah, especially as
• 33:31
  listeners know what your full name actually is
• 33:32
  Oh, yeah, good point if they're really paying
• 33:35
  attention If you really want to know you already
• 33:40
  know if you know so Oh boy Philemon, holy apostle,
• 33:53
  and or slave owner? That one had an exclamation
• 34:01
  mark and a question mark. I'm gonna have to piece
• 34:04
  together all the stuff you said before that question.
• 34:12
  Okay, so Philemon, holy apostle, and or slave
• 34:19
  owner. Okay, but okay, so so here's the thing
• 34:24
  that's interesting is Well, first of all our
• 34:29
  podcast is called martyrs row and every episode
• 34:32
  we start by reading either from Fox's book of
• 34:35
  martyrs or we've kind of not graduated from there,
• 34:39
  but We've moved on to a little bit more precise
• 34:43
  Laying out of where Fox Fox's John Fox left off.
• 34:47
  Yeah being a little bit more precise in each
• 34:51
  individual martyr because Philemon is actually
• 34:55
  part of a group that were all executed all at
• 35:01
  once a part of the first it was like the first
• 35:05
  mass execution yeah of Nero like near by Nero
• 35:12
  crazy yeah yeah so like John Fox kind of just
• 35:16
  puts them all together And there's like a bunch
• 35:18
  of names listed. And even in the, even in the
• 35:21
  reading, like you said, Onesimus is mentioned.
• 35:24
  Yeah. Um, so is Afia and, um, Archibos, Archibos.
• 35:31
  And so they're also mentioned and they're also
• 35:34
  mentioned in the book of Philemon or the, or
• 35:38
  the letter of Philemon, which is interesting
• 35:40
  because when you look at all of those pieces,
• 35:44
  it's like, We kind of pulled them out individually
• 35:48
  because we want to do that with our podcast.
• 35:52
  But for the most part, this back part of the
• 35:56
  podcast, we tend to not talk about martyrs at
• 35:59
  all. True. Well, I feel like it's our subtle
• 36:03
  shift to looking inward to ourselves. To more
• 36:07
  topics. Of living out martyrdom. or this posture
• 36:11
  of being a martyr. Yeah, and connecting to the
• 36:14
  larger narrative and the bigger story and things
• 36:17
  that are going on that maybe help explain even
• 36:20
  our day -to -day outlook, like developing our
• 36:23
  theology and different things like that. So I
• 36:26
  think on this one... I love the question, I love
• 36:28
  that we're just sitting with Philemon. Because
• 36:31
  as we were talking about this, like, well, Philemon's
• 36:34
  an interesting one because I don't know, to be
• 36:37
  completely honest, there's a lot of things where,
• 36:39
  like just through day -to -day life, sometimes
• 36:41
  I'm, if you were to just like, blindside me and
• 36:44
  be like, hey, Philemon, was, is that a person
• 36:48
  or a place? To be completely honest, probably
• 36:54
  a month ago. I would have been like, let me think
• 36:57
  about it. Is that even in the Bible? Yeah, and
• 37:03
  the reason why I say that is because the New
• 37:06
  Testament is actually broken up in this really
• 37:08
  interesting way. So the New Testament is 27 books,
• 37:14
  part of the 66 books in the canonical scriptures.
• 37:20
  But it's 27 books. The first four are... they
• 37:24
  are kind of mirroring the Torah. So they're mirroring
• 37:30
  the first five books of the Hebrew scriptures.
• 37:34
  And they're establishing, again, the connection
• 37:37
  to the creation story, the why are we here? What's
• 37:41
  going on? What are we doing? That's cool. So
• 37:43
  like you kind of have this like it's four books
• 37:45
  now. I guess New Testament needed one less. but
• 37:49
  also repeated the same thing over and over again.
• 37:51
  Yeah, just told the same story four times. But,
• 37:56
  like, that's kind of a cool, and then, so you
• 37:59
  get through, you go through those four books,
• 38:01
  and the four books, Matthew, Mark, Luke, and
• 38:03
  John, as you go through those, it's like, all
• 38:06
  right, well, Matthew wrote Matthew. Mark, maybe
• 38:10
  John Mark wrote it. That's argued throughout
• 38:14
  time. Luke, it's like, Actually a lot of people
• 38:18
  don't think that that Luke the the friend of
• 38:22
  Paul the Greek Doctor yeah, yeah, a lot of people
• 38:28
  actually argue that he's not the Luke that wrote
• 38:30
  that which is an interesting claim But yeah,
• 38:33
  it is. Yeah, but like timeline and stuff like
• 38:36
  that. But anyways, and then John the beloved
• 38:39
  one Because Luke and John both reference them
• 38:43
  themselves as the writer. Yeah but then you get
• 38:47
  to book five and that's the Acts. So it kind
• 38:51
  of like Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Acts, kind
• 38:54
  of those five kind of duplicate in a large way
• 38:58
  the Torah, the first five books of the Old Testament.
• 39:01
  In this way, that's actually really cool. And
• 39:04
  so you kind of see this movement where it's mirroring
• 39:08
  what's happening and kind of the answer in this
• 39:10
  new era. of what's going on, how the Lord's answering,
• 39:14
  and fulfilling the prophetic words that came
• 39:17
  through the prophets. And also in the creation,
• 39:23
  it's like all there, right? But then you move
• 39:25
  on beyond Acts, and Acts is arguably written
• 39:28
  by a few people, and most of it attributed to
• 39:32
  Luke. But after Luke, all of a sudden, or sorry,
• 39:38
  after Acts, you get to Romans. And from that
• 39:42
  point, you go 13 letters and the first chunk
• 39:50
  of them are all specifically to a location. Yeah.
• 39:57
  So like, if you go, so you go Romans is written
• 40:00
  to Rome and then to the church in Rome. And then
• 40:05
  you have first and second Corinthians. written
• 40:08
  to the church at Corinth, which is a port city
• 40:10
  in Greece. And then the next one is Galatians,
• 40:14
  which is written to the church in Galatia, like
• 40:16
  central Turkey. And also the Gauls. Oh, interesting.
• 40:22
  So Galatia is also known for, like, that's where
• 40:26
  the Gauls were. And the Gauls eventually become,
• 40:30
  like, Nordic. Yeah. And it's like, yeah, we should
• 40:34
  do a study on that. That's fascinating. And then
• 40:38
  after Galatians, you have Ephesians written to
• 40:40
  the church in Ephesus, which is Asia Minor. And
• 40:44
  then Philippians to the church in Philippi, which
• 40:47
  is a Roman colony in Macedonia, Greece. And then
• 40:52
  Colossians to the church in Colossi. Now the
• 40:58
  church in Colossi is actually where Philemon
• 41:01
  is. Yeah. So that's where he's from. Yeah. So
• 41:05
  Philemon is from Colossi and basically ends up
• 41:09
  meeting Paul at Colossi. Or no, sorry. Philemon
• 41:13
  meets Paul at Ephesus while Paul is in Ephesus.
• 41:19
  But he's from Colossi. And so he becomes part
• 41:21
  of the church in Colossi. And that's also in
• 41:25
  Asia Minor. And that's kind of funny because
• 41:28
  Paul's from the Asia -Mongolian. Yeah, that's
• 41:30
  where he's from. Yeah, so like they're like,
• 41:34
  not that they know each other, but like they're
• 41:36
  kind of... They have a lot of connections. They
• 41:37
  do, yeah. And then you go from Colossians to
• 41:41
  1st and 2nd Thessalonians, and that's Thessalonica,
• 41:46
  a location, right? So and then that kind of ends
• 41:50
  the location, the churches, the places that are
• 41:52
  being spoken to. Yeah. So you have Matthew, Mark,
• 41:55
  Luke, and John. who are echoing the creation
• 41:59
  story and setting up and talking specifically
• 42:01
  about Jesus. And then you have the establishment
• 42:03
  of the church. So like whereas in the Torah you
• 42:09
  have the establishment of Israel. And then in
• 42:12
  the first five into Acts you have the establishment
• 42:14
  of the church. And then from Acts all of a sudden
• 42:19
  you have the writings of Paul. And the writings
• 42:22
  of Paul start by writing to each of these churches.
• 42:27
  And in the Old Testament, you kind of have this
• 42:30
  layout from there where it goes into the chronologies,
• 42:32
  it goes into what happens. So it's telling you
• 42:35
  all the setup of like, what's the one that, what's
• 42:40
  the Old Testament book with a C? Chronicles.
• 42:43
  And then you have... like the kings. Samuel first,
• 42:47
  then Samuel. Yeah. So you're starting to set
• 42:50
  up, these things kind of mimic what Acts looks
• 42:52
  like. And then you get into the letters and you're
• 42:55
  starting to get into what the prophets look like.
• 42:58
  Because the prophets are representing to the
• 43:00
  children of Israel, the people of Israel. They're
• 43:03
  essentially representing to them what God is
• 43:05
  speaking. And what Paul does through his letters
• 43:08
  to the churches is he takes the gospel that has
• 43:12
  been preached. By the church and that has been
• 43:16
  established and he delivers it in a more succinct
• 43:19
  theology In order to grab hold of what's going
• 43:22
  on. So it's it's it's the Word of God explained
• 43:25
  or being spoken out That's cool, which is kind
• 43:28
  of cool because it's very similar to the prophets.
• 43:30
  Yeah, right That's fascinating. So then like
• 43:33
  that's cool as you go through there you have
• 43:36
  Romans first second Corinthians Galatians Ephesians
• 43:40
  Philippians Colossians, first, second, Thessalonians.
• 43:45
  So the first nine letters are written two places.
• 43:50
  And then after that, you have first and second
• 43:52
  Timothy, and those are written to Timothy. So
• 43:56
  now we're not talking to churches, we're talking
• 44:00
  specifically to pastors. So talking specifically
• 44:04
  to church leaders. And so you have Timothy, who
• 44:09
  was the pastor in Ephesus. And then after that
• 44:13
  you have Titus. And Titus was over the churches
• 44:16
  in Crete. So he's specifically as an apostle
• 44:20
  speaking at large to the churches. And then he's
• 44:24
  going specifically to the pastors over the regions.
• 44:27
  That's cool. Which is kind of cool. Yeah, that's
• 44:29
  cool. So then as you go through that, then after
• 44:31
  Titus you get Philemon. And Philemon is actually
• 44:36
  the last letter of Paul. before you get to Hebrews,
• 44:43
  which may or may not have been written by Paul.
• 44:46
  Yeah. Some people, there's a lot of theories.
• 44:49
  Yeah, actually like, so from the fifth to the
• 44:52
  16th century, pretty much everybody believed
• 44:55
  that Paul wrote Hebrews. Yeah. which is weird
• 44:58
  and that's kind of that gap where it's like that's
• 45:00
  like the middle ages it's like there's a bunch
• 45:02
  of things happening from the fifth to the 16th
• 45:05
  century because it's far enough away from the
• 45:07
  first century that like things start to fall
• 45:09
  apart a little bit yeah and they just kind of
• 45:12
  start making up stuff yeah that works right but
• 45:16
  it's kind of cool to like break down the new
• 45:18
  testament by book and look at it like that that
• 45:20
  is cool i i guess i i never noticed the um the
• 45:26
  parallel in Paul's letters to reflect how the
• 45:30
  Old Testament is laid out. That's a really interesting
• 45:31
  idea. Yeah, I was just thinking about that and
• 45:33
  I thought, I feel like because it's the law and
• 45:37
  then the prophets. And Jesus came to fulfill
• 45:39
  the law, not to abolish it. So the law is being
• 45:43
  fulfilled in the synoptic gospels and then it's
• 45:46
  being played out. The prophecies, like the prophets,
• 45:50
  are being played out in the churches. That's
• 45:54
  so cool. yeah to the ends of the earth like that's
• 45:57
  so in in some ways like the law and the prophets
• 46:00
  show up as the fulfillment of the law and playing
• 46:03
  out of the prophecies so it's like that kind
• 46:05
  of ends up happening yeah it's cool but i also
• 46:08
  didn't really even realize that like it's actually
• 46:11
  laid out specifically where it's not like it's
• 46:15
  not like you get first and second corinthians
• 46:17
  and then titus Like you're actually getting all
• 46:20
  of the letters to the churches in order before
• 46:23
  it goes to the pastoral epistles Yeah, yeah,
• 46:25
  which is is kind of a cool and unique thing Yeah,
• 46:29
  that's really neat because because then after
• 46:31
  Hebrews then you get James first and second Peter
• 46:34
  first second third John Jude and Revelation and
• 46:37
  of course James Peter John and Jude are all directly
• 46:41
  written by those people Yeah, so those are pastors
• 46:44
  writing Which is you know that's a that's a unique
• 46:49
  thing and then revelations written by john which
• 46:51
  is i mean even if you take that it's kind of
• 46:53
  cool because that's kind of the books that the
• 46:55
  prophets wrote at least yeah yeah so it would
• 46:58
  almost be like right yeah yeah so in some ways
• 47:03
  like if you look at it you can kind of like it
• 47:05
  kind of mirrors yeah that's so the old testament
• 47:08
  the way it's laid out but it also brings some
• 47:11
  validity like as i was looking at at this in
• 47:13
  the order of all that laid out. I was thinking
• 47:15
  about the validity of the councils and laying
• 47:19
  everything out strategically, categorizing it
• 47:22
  that way. And I'm sure that many people have
• 47:25
  done layouts and study on that. But yeah, so
• 47:29
  that's like kind of a brief synopsis of that.
• 47:31
  I never thought about that. But the thing that's
• 47:33
  interesting is Philemon is the last letter before
• 47:36
  Hebrews that Paul writes. not necessarily chronologically,
• 47:41
  but just in the canon, the way it's written out.
• 47:45
  And Philemon is from Colossi. So he was part
• 47:50
  of the church at Colossians. Yeah, the Colossian
• 47:55
  Church. Yeah, the Colossian Church. So that's
• 47:59
  like backstory. That's like a lot of backstory.
• 48:03
  But I mean, I think that's really cool even just
• 48:04
  to place him there, where it's like, okay, like...
• 48:07
  this is what's going on. I think it's easy, at
• 48:11
  least for me, to lose where everything fits together.
• 48:15
  And it's like, oh, these are all churches that
• 48:17
  are trying to figure this out for the first time
• 48:19
  in a lot of ways. And there are people that are
• 48:22
  there that are the pastors, the overseers. And
• 48:26
  there's these bigger churches. There's also house
• 48:28
  churches that people are hosting in themselves
• 48:30
  in their own homes. Which Colossians initially
• 48:33
  was a house church. Yeah. And then Philemon's
• 48:36
  church was also a house church. Correct. Yeah.
• 48:40
  Cause I think Colossians or the, yeah. So Paul's
• 48:46
  coworker Epiphras, Epiphras starts a Jesus community
• 48:50
  in Colossi in his house where Philemon attends.
• 48:54
  That's cool. So that's like a, and you kind of
• 48:57
  go like coworker of Paul. What does that mean?
• 49:00
  Like co -laborer in Christ or was he a tent maker?
• 49:03
  I didn't look back on that. That's kind of interesting.
• 49:07
  But yeah, so a buddy of Paul's starts a home
• 49:12
  church basically there. And then that's where
• 49:15
  Philemon shows up. So it's kind of cool. And
• 49:19
  then the other thing too is when you look at
• 49:21
  Paul, you also have the synoptic gospels and
• 49:24
  Acts. And what's happening there is, like Jesus
• 49:27
  says over and over again, he basically says,
• 49:30
  I came to save the lost sheep of Israel. So what
• 49:34
  you have is fulfillment of the law. So you have
• 49:38
  an opportunity for Israel, through the Torah,
• 49:44
  and now through Jesus, to come to the Lord, come
• 49:47
  back to the Lord. And then to the ends of the
• 49:51
  earth. And the ends of the earth is Paul. That's
• 49:56
  his job, you know what I mean? In a major way.
• 49:58
  So that's where like, Paul's like kind of from
• 50:02
  Asia Minor. Well, he is, he's not kind of from,
• 50:06
  but he definitely is from. And you have like
• 50:10
  Colossi and then Ephesus and Corinth. Like all
• 50:17
  of these places are, well, Corinth is in Greece.
• 50:19
  So you kind of have like these churches in Greece,
• 50:21
  and then you have several of them in the Asia
• 50:23
  Minor. And he's kind of in and out and all over.
• 50:27
  Yeah, because I mean, that's where most of his
• 50:29
  ministry was done. Right. And then you've got
• 50:31
  other apostles and other missionaries out trying
• 50:34
  to start churches and other all over the nations.
• 50:36
  Right. Yeah. Yeah. Which we've talked about in
• 50:38
  the past. We have. Yeah. So that's that's an
• 50:41
  interesting thing. So then Philemon, it's like,
• 50:43
  OK, well, well, who is Philemon? Yeah. Well,
• 50:46
  so Philemon was essentially a well -off dude
• 50:51
  that was from Colossi. Colossi. Yeah. I feel
• 50:56
  like that's not I would say it. Is that the That
• 50:59
  sounds like the name of the Khaleesi from Pirates
• 51:03
  of the Caribbean. Do you say Caribbean? It depends.
• 51:08
  I know. Problem solved. Hey, in the comments,
• 51:14
  write how you say Caribbean. Just spell it and
• 51:18
  we'll know how you pronounce it. Because I feel
• 51:20
  like if I was talking about it, I'd say, oh yeah,
• 51:23
  he was just over in the Caribbean. But I watched
• 51:26
  Pirates of the Caribbean. Gotcha, and I don't
• 51:29
  know why it's cuz of Disney. Yeah, probably That's
• 51:33
  like do you say Reese's Pieces or Reese's Pieces?
• 51:36
  Yeah, good point. It depends on what region I'm
• 51:39
  in. Yeah, true Cuz I say Reese's Pieces Yeah,
• 51:45
  which is not correct, but it's fine no, but it's
• 51:47
  more fun Reese's Pieces Reese's Pieces Yeah,
• 51:57
  my favorite one is how do you say the name of
• 52:01
  the bird that lives in very cold regions and
• 52:06
  walks on two kind of waddles? A penguin? Yeah,
• 52:09
  say it again. Penguin? I'm not saying it like
• 52:14
  our good friend, Benefit Cabbage Patch. Benefit
• 52:19
  Cabbage Patch? How does he say it? Have you seen
• 52:22
  the documentary he does? On penguins? Yeah. No?
• 52:26
  He calls them, like, penguins? Oh. I always say
• 52:29
  peng - penguins. Penguin? Penguins. Penguin.
• 52:32
  Yeah, like P -I. Oh. Cause it's pen. Yeah. P
• 52:36
  -E -N. I don't say penguins. How did I say it?
• 52:40
  You say it with an A. Penguins. Yeah. Which is
• 52:44
  a very southern, like, penguins. Penguins. But
• 52:48
  it's like penguins. Penguins. Penguins. Because
• 52:52
  the G is U -I after it. So it's like, penguins.
• 52:55
  I feel like an elitist when I say it. The penguins.
• 52:58
  Well, we are talking about Philemon. That's true,
• 53:00
  so we're in a good company. Yeah, and he's an
• 53:02
  upper -class guy. Are we though? Yes. You know?
• 53:06
  Well, I mean, I think that's a fair question.
• 53:08
  So we look at him, it's like, OK, so he's part
• 53:11
  of this house church. Yes. Most likely his own
• 53:14
  home that he's hosting it in. Not until later.
• 53:18
  OK. So he's part of the church that, what's his
• 53:23
  name? Epiphros? Epiphros? Epiphros? I don't know.
• 53:28
  Probably. That sounds like Papyrus, which is
• 53:31
  Greek. Papyrus! Epiphros? Yeah, he's part of
• 53:36
  that church, which is in Colossi. Okay. But then
• 53:41
  Philemon actually... Yeah, he ends up starting
• 53:48
  his own home house church. Okay. That's what
• 53:50
  I thought. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, because he hosts
• 53:54
  his own house church. And then the other people
• 53:59
  that are mentioned in the letter. Yeah, I was
• 54:03
  gonna get there. I wanted to ask you that too.
• 54:04
  Yeah, get there. Who are these people? Who are
• 54:06
  these people? Stephen, who are they? Well, like
• 54:10
  Philemon 1, it says, Paul, a prisoner of Christ
• 54:12
  Jesus, and Timothy, our brother. So it's being
• 54:15
  written by both of them. Probably written by
• 54:17
  Timothy, but it's Paul, like, telling him what
• 54:22
  to write. To Philemon, our beloved fellow worker,
• 54:26
  and Afia, our sister, and Archippus, our fellow
• 54:30
  soldier. So those two people were named as part
• 54:33
  of that first grouping of people that were martyred
• 54:39
  or killed for being Christians by Nero. And Archippus,
• 54:45
  our fellow soldier, and the church in your house.
• 54:48
  So it's establishing it that way, right? Now
• 54:51
  the interesting thing is like Afia our sister
• 54:54
  Yeah, it's kind of believed and understood that
• 54:57
  Afias is actually Philemon's wife Yeah, especially
• 55:00
  because I read it was after because of how closely
• 55:04
  she's named to him That there is that connection
• 55:07
  there. Yeah, and the calling her sister is the
• 55:11
  recognition of the spiritual connection, right?
• 55:14
  Yeah. Yeah, so that's kind of cool. So it's most
• 55:17
  likely Philemon and his wife. Yeah and then the
• 55:22
  fellow soldier, Archipus. Who he's named in,
• 55:26
  is it Colossians, I think? It actually names
• 55:29
  Archipus specifically. Yeah. I think Paul exhorts
• 55:32
  him for his work in the ministry. Yeah. Yeah.
• 55:35
  Because he's a fellow soldier. Yeah, he is. Any
• 55:38
  soldier. Yeah, so that's who those people are.
• 55:42
  Yeah, because Archipus, isn't it believed that
• 55:45
  he is their son? Oh, I don't know that. Okay,
• 55:49
  I think I read that somewhere because if we're
• 55:51
  going to connect Aphia as being Philemon's wife,
• 55:56
  and then Archepis directly after that, there's
• 55:59
  a potential that he could be their son. Okay,
• 56:03
  that makes sense. So he's addressing the household.
• 56:05
  Which is kind of cool. Yeah. It is cool. And
• 56:09
  it's almost like Timothy's kind of writing to
• 56:10
  his friend. Right. Hey bud. Yeah. Hey, Archibus.
• 56:15
  Fellow soldier. What's up, man? Hey, bro. In
• 56:19
  the burrosphere. He's like, I gotta write this
• 56:23
  letter for the old dude, Paul. He wants to talk
• 56:25
  to your parents. Your parents, Hope. Hey, soldier.
• 56:31
  That's actually a really funny way to think.
• 56:33
  It's me, Tim. We should animate that. Hey, Ark.
• 56:35
  It's me, Tim. It's me, Timothée. Timothée. Yeah,
• 56:45
  so yeah, so it's cool to even see it that way
• 56:47
  and like placing them themselves. So, Archippus
• 56:51
  was most likely a preacher or a pastor. Yeah.
• 56:56
  Philemon probably held some kind of leadership
• 56:58
  position since he's hosting this, but then his
• 57:01
  wife most likely would have been attached to
• 57:03
  that leadership role as a host or a teacher in
• 57:06
  some capacity. Yeah, he's an executive pastor.
• 57:10
  He manages the building. Yeah. But I think what's
• 57:14
  interesting about that is there's that potential.
• 57:17
  Talk about women in ministry. Yeah. It's like,
• 57:19
  well, here she is in a pretty significant role.
• 57:23
  Yeah, but she's also... As a support or some
• 57:27
  kind of leadership position. Yeah. Yeah, it's
• 57:29
  not addressing three different unique leaders.
• 57:31
  No. It's addressing a household. Yeah. Who happens
• 57:34
  to be leading this church? Yeah. And he names
• 57:37
  Philemon first. Yeah. It's like the... Which
• 57:39
  I mean would make sense because he's the head
• 57:41
  of the household. Right. Yeah. So Philemon is
• 57:45
  kind of interesting because Philemon opens up
• 57:48
  a... It opens up a lot of different things. Yeah.
• 57:53
  But yeah, and we kind of get... We'll get into
• 57:56
  your question. Yeah. Because I think it's interesting.
• 57:59
  But since this is Martyrs Row, the thing that's
• 58:02
  interesting about... uh what about philemon specifically
• 58:06
  is this guy nero so so nero like the thing that's
• 58:13
  interesting about nero is nero is a emperor a
• 58:17
  roman emperor yeah and at the time uh nero i
• 58:21
  think nero dies at like 30 like i mean he only
• 58:25
  ruled was it like 80 like 57 to 68 Yeah, so like
• 58:31
  he didn't rule for very long either. Yeah, and
• 58:33
  Philemon dies in 64 Yes, so like that's that's
• 58:37
  the thing is like I think it's what we said But
• 58:41
  Nero is interesting because Nero is like pretty
• 58:43
  close to this line of emperors where his mom's
• 58:47
  grandfather was I forget who he was But someone
• 58:56
  I want to say Agrippa, but anyways, okay Anyways,
• 59:02
  the important thing is not necessarily who he
• 59:03
  was specifically but at the time of his great
• 59:08
  -grandfather That's when like the the Roman emperors.
• 59:12
  That's when things started to shift and they
• 59:15
  started to Basically deify their leaders. Yeah,
• 59:20
  and when they started to deify their leaders,
• 59:21
  it was a council who after somebody died, they
• 59:25
  had the ability to say that person was a god
• 59:27
  or became a god. And so then the line of that
• 59:32
  emperor that had passed would be born of the
• 59:36
  line of a god. So it's not necessarily that they
• 59:39
  literally were a god, but they were born in that
• 59:42
  lineage. And then the other interesting thing
• 59:46
  is Nero's mom actually remarries. Oh, okay. And
• 59:54
  the line that she marries into sets Nero up to
• 59:59
  be the one to take over the throne. Interesting.
• 1:00:01
  Yeah, so even though she is from a royal line
• 1:00:06
  as well, she remarries and who she remarries
• 1:00:10
  sets Nero up for when his stepdad dies. It's
• 1:00:16
  a lock. Yeah. then he becomes the emperor. Interesting.
• 1:00:21
  So he becomes emperor really young. Yeah, yeah.
• 1:00:24
  And he's like super paranoid. Oh yeah. He kills
• 1:00:29
  his mom at some point. Wild. And then he also
• 1:00:34
  has his wife killed at one point. And I think
• 1:00:37
  the reason he has his wife killed was because
• 1:00:42
  according to the gospel of Thomas, she didn't
• 1:00:46
  deserve to live. But she was gonna be a man,
• 1:00:51
  given enough time. She hadn't turned into a man
• 1:00:52
  yet. If you're just jumping to this moment, go
• 1:00:58
  back. You have to go back. But... At first I
• 1:01:03
  was like, I didn't know what time was talked
• 1:01:05
  about. You were fully with me. I was like, really?
• 1:01:08
  You're gonna take your notes from that? You were
• 1:01:10
  fully with me. But yeah, so that's interesting
• 1:01:15
  though because basically Nero gets to this point
• 1:01:18
  in 64 where he just does mass killings of Christians.
• 1:01:25
  Well, do you know the reason for that? Go for
• 1:01:27
  it. Well, so there, which I'm sure everyone knows
• 1:01:31
  Nero and this fire. Everybody knows. Everybody
• 1:01:34
  knows. Nero started the fire. He was playing
• 1:01:38
  violin in a tower. I don't think that's how the
• 1:01:44
  song goes. It is now. So, yeah, so there's these
• 1:01:49
  massive fires that wiped out a good portion of
• 1:01:52
  Rome at the time. Yeah. Rumors quickly started
• 1:01:57
  spreading that Nero had started the fires because
• 1:01:59
  that's where he wanted to build his new palace.
• 1:02:02
  So as a way of kind of like clearing house. Yeah,
• 1:02:04
  which on a total side note, it's kind of funny
• 1:02:06
  how we've been conspiracy theorists throughout
• 1:02:09
  time forever. That's true. They're just like,
• 1:02:12
  oh, huge fires. Nero did it. For real estate.
• 1:02:16
  He's like, no, guys. So what does Nero do? He's
• 1:02:20
  like, oh, they can't think this about me. You
• 1:02:23
  know, he's this young leader. Yeah. Probably
• 1:02:25
  a people pleaser. Yeah. Makes sense. And so he
• 1:02:30
  chooses this very small unpopular sect or religion
• 1:02:34
  known as Christians. Yeah. And he says, they
• 1:02:37
  did it. And then. people start believing it,
• 1:02:41
  and then they're like, let's kill all of them.
• 1:02:43
  Wow. So yeah, so that's what started these first
• 1:02:48
  wave of martyrdoms and persecutions. Okay. Was
• 1:02:51
  basically we got blamed for these fires. That's
• 1:02:53
  crazy. Yeah. I actually didn't know that. Oh
• 1:02:55
  really? Yeah. So I'm glad you did. Oh, awesome.
• 1:03:00
  That's why there's two people on this podcast.
• 1:03:03
  Yes. Contribution. But that makes sense. I mean,
• 1:03:06
  Nero, if Nero dies at age 30. Yeah. then yeah,
• 1:03:10
  that would have happened when he was like 25.
• 1:03:13
  Which is crazy to think about. It is crazy. Or
• 1:03:16
  yeah, 25 or 26. That's even the weird thing,
• 1:03:19
  even with how Roman emperors moved, because they
• 1:03:22
  didn't have that supreme authority the whole
• 1:03:25
  time, at least not in the history of Rome. And
• 1:03:28
  it wasn't until there was these wars, a lot of
• 1:03:32
  them with the Gauls. And they're like, we're
• 1:03:34
  getting wiped out. And so they would be like,
• 1:03:37
  can you just take supreme authority and just
• 1:03:40
  fix it and then give up the authority? And there
• 1:03:46
  were a number of emperors, one of them in particular
• 1:03:49
  actually, George Washington actually based a
• 1:03:51
  lot of his, one of his role models was one of
• 1:03:53
  these emperors. Who just kind of like stepped
• 1:03:56
  up and he's like, yeah, I don't want to do this.
• 1:03:59
  He's like, I just want to go back and farm. I
• 1:04:01
  think his name was Cincinnati's. Okay. And you
• 1:04:04
  can look that up later and correct me if I'm
• 1:04:05
  wrong. Paul's just always trying to bring Ohio
• 1:04:07
  into this. I sure will. Hey, what can I say?
• 1:04:12
  And so he's just like, hey, I'm retired. I'm
• 1:04:14
  a farmer. Yeah. Like he was in politics for a
• 1:04:17
  while and he's like, yeah, I'm going down to
• 1:04:19
  the farm. Also the idea of being in politics
• 1:04:20
  for a while when you're talking about ancient
• 1:04:22
  Rome. It's weird to think about. It's weird.
• 1:04:24
  Yeah. But it's like people are people. I think
• 1:04:26
  that's kind of like... A lot of what we talk
• 1:04:29
  about, I feel like that's the moral of a lot
• 1:04:30
  of this is people are just kind of people. That's
• 1:04:32
  true. Well, so they bring him on, and they're
• 1:04:35
  like, you need to take this supreme authority.
• 1:04:37
  He's like, I don't want to do that. That's way
• 1:04:39
  too much for one man. Yeah. And he finally agrees.
• 1:04:44
  He's like, OK, fine, I'll do it. He does what
• 1:04:46
  he needs to. He corrects the empire. And then
• 1:04:49
  he's like, all right, going back to the farm,
• 1:04:51
  which is the reason I bring up George Washington,
• 1:04:53
  because that's who he modeled himself after.
• 1:04:58
  setups for the balance between the powers in
• 1:05:02
  the US government were instituted and put in
• 1:05:04
  by him. That makes sense. We need balance here
• 1:05:07
  because there's too much authority. Yeah, because
• 1:05:08
  he was the one that established term limits.
• 1:05:10
  Yes. Yeah. Like they wanted him to rule as a
• 1:05:14
  king. As a monarch forever. Right. And he's like,
• 1:05:17
  no, I'm not doing that. That's too much power.
• 1:05:19
  Yeah. So we have him to thank for his ability
• 1:05:22
  to read. Yeah, so that our president... Even
• 1:05:25
  though he had like donkey teeth. We can't win
• 1:05:30
  everything. No one's a winner. But anyway. We
• 1:05:35
  can thank him for, no matter who the president
• 1:05:39
  is, they're gone in four to eight years. Because
• 1:05:43
  who knows what will happen. Just imagine if someone
• 1:05:47
  had more time. Actually, we have a pretty good
• 1:05:49
  idea of what would happen. Yeah, that's true.
• 1:05:51
  We left all that. Yeah. Not sure it's better.
• 1:05:55
  It's just different. But anyway, so not soon
• 1:06:00
  after this happens, the next emperor, I think
• 1:06:04
  it was the very next emperor that stepped in
• 1:06:06
  and was like, yeah, I'm supreme leader. And then
• 1:06:10
  that just continues to go. And then like, yeah,
• 1:06:13
  their elevation of who they were just continues
• 1:06:15
  to grow and grow and compound. Which causes more
• 1:06:19
  issues. And then you have... Nero the Paranoid
• 1:06:23
  over here. Yeah, yeah. And then he's like, yeah,
• 1:06:27
  I didn't start these fires, guys. Kill Christians
• 1:06:30
  instead. Oh, it's Tiberius. Tiberius. That's
• 1:06:34
  his grandfather? Great grandfather. Great grandfather.
• 1:06:37
  Yeah. Yeah. That's a significant guy. Yeah, pretty
• 1:06:43
  significant. So yeah, so Nero. Yeah. That's all
• 1:06:47
  about Nero. It's just kind of interesting because
• 1:06:51
  up until this point, and really as you've gone
• 1:06:56
  through our episodes with us, people have died
• 1:06:58
  at different points. And some people we've even
• 1:07:02
  seen go up until like 90 something AD, which
• 1:07:07
  is interesting. But in that instance, seeing
• 1:07:12
  a whole group of people killed by the Roman government,
• 1:07:16
  whereas typically it was what we start to see
• 1:07:21
  after the birth of the church is just individually
• 1:07:25
  the Jewish council is killing them off. And so
• 1:07:33
  this is kind of like now the state, the Roman
• 1:07:37
  state is starting to do that. Now the Roman state
• 1:07:40
  did do that with zealots, people that were actually
• 1:07:43
  trying to overthrow, yeah, like Jewish zealots.
• 1:07:47
  That's where you get into like the Maccabees
• 1:07:49
  and stuff like that. But in that way, and then
• 1:07:52
  that's actually what everybody thought Jesus
• 1:07:54
  was doing. Right. I mean, because Jesus wasn't
• 1:07:57
  unique in the fact that he's the only one who
• 1:07:59
  claimed he was Messiah. Right. It's like a lot
• 1:08:02
  of people had done that. Yeah. Well, and there's
• 1:08:04
  even this idea that like whenever a Roman emperor
• 1:08:07
  would die and a new one would be put in place,
• 1:08:10
  they would send out horses through the region
• 1:08:15
  and they would basically say like, arise the
• 1:08:20
  day of salvation is here. Like kneel to repent
• 1:08:27
  and be saved. Like they would use that type of
• 1:08:30
  language and say like your new God is here. If
• 1:08:35
  you don't kneel, we'll... Cut your head off basically.
• 1:08:39
  Yeah, so like really crazy. Yeah, so like that's
• 1:08:42
  the like it was very So the idea of Jesus riding
• 1:08:46
  in on the donkey. Yeah was like that was what
• 1:08:49
  was prophesied but he was going low whereas a
• 1:08:55
  Roman ruler would come in on a horse right and
• 1:08:58
  he would take it by by force yeah, it's actually
• 1:09:01
  Because there's a lot of symbolism inside of
• 1:09:04
  that. Yeah in that in the Hebrew tradition. Repent
• 1:09:08
  for the kingdom of God is here. That's what they
• 1:09:10
  would say. Oh, that's what they would say. Yeah.
• 1:09:12
  Dang, that's... It's pretty crazy. That's pretty
• 1:09:14
  crazy. Yeah. But yeah, so a donkey was a royal
• 1:09:19
  steed in Jewish tradition, Hebrew tradition,
• 1:09:22
  but it was also a sign of peace in that, especially
• 1:09:26
  coming on a colt, it's a sign of there's a new
• 1:09:28
  guy in town, but I'm not gonna take over anything
• 1:09:31
  yet. I'm not here to conquer yet, which is what
• 1:09:33
  a white horse would symbolize. So like a white
• 1:09:36
  horse riding in and saying like, yeah, we're
• 1:09:38
  taking it over. Yeah. So this would have been
• 1:09:41
  like several months ago now. But did you see
• 1:09:43
  the whole thing around when President Trump,
• 1:09:49
  he was doing this speech at, I think, was it
• 1:09:52
  the World Economic Forum? It was one of those
• 1:09:56
  things where the seal, the American seal. Oh,
• 1:10:00
  I saw that. Yeah, it's like the seal with the
• 1:10:03
  eagle on it. He has olive branches in one claw,
• 1:10:08
  and then he has arrows in the other. And I think
• 1:10:11
  it was Eisenhower, it was a president some time
• 1:10:14
  ago, had turned the face of the eagle towards
• 1:10:18
  olive branches. And that was a signifier of peace.
• 1:10:22
  And then behind Trump, he had that seal, which
• 1:10:26
  is weird because the seal was on the front of
• 1:10:28
  the podium, and it was towards peace. But the
• 1:10:31
  seal behind him, which was projected, was towards
• 1:10:34
  the arrows. Yeah, that's kind of crazy. It is
• 1:10:38
  kind of crazy. So like heading into his presidency,
• 1:10:42
  second term. Yeah, I mean, that's what he's doing.
• 1:10:45
  Pretty wild. He's just going at it. Yeah. I mean,
• 1:10:48
  I'm not saying he's Nero, but. But you know what?
• 1:10:51
  People are also saying about Nero. What? They're
• 1:10:54
  currently saying it? Some people are, if you're
• 1:10:57
  a preterist. Little eschatology for us here.
• 1:11:01
  So this may or may not be news to you. I don't
• 1:11:03
  know if you know this. I do. Okay. I think it's
• 1:11:06
  kind of interesting though. It is. And I think
• 1:11:08
  that's, I will say, I think that's the interesting
• 1:11:10
  thing with a lot of concepts that we pull out
• 1:11:14
  theologically is that I don't think any of them
• 1:11:17
  are 100 % right. And what I mean by that is,
• 1:11:22
  especially when it comes to certain things like
• 1:11:24
  eschatology. I don't ever like saying I am 100
• 1:11:27
  % right. I don't either. Yeah. Because how can
• 1:11:30
  you? Unless I'm like, hey, to my child, if you
• 1:11:35
  run out on the road, I am 100 % correct that
• 1:11:39
  that truck right there is going to run into you.
• 1:11:41
  Yeah. So in those instances, I'll say I'm 100
• 1:11:45
  % right. Right. Anything else? Nah. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:11:50
  That's a big claim. Yeah. Takes a big ego. Especially
• 1:11:54
  on this podcast, recording at 4 a .m., who knows
• 1:11:57
  what we're gonna say. We're gonna say some stuff,
• 1:11:59
  which is what I'm about to get into. And yes,
• 1:12:02
  we are still talking about philemon. And the
• 1:12:04
  funny thing about this is the only reason we
• 1:12:07
  can talk about this stuff with philemon is because
• 1:12:10
  it's called martyrs row. Yeah, true. So like
• 1:12:13
  our through line is philemon, but our overarching
• 1:12:17
  topic is martyrs. Yeah, so this is kind of cool.
• 1:12:22
  So Nero and Nero is a big player in that he's
• 1:12:24
  a big player But yeah, so I was gonna say I think
• 1:12:27
  that it's one of those like there's a lot of
• 1:12:29
  layers to these things Yeah, like we see that
• 1:12:31
  with prophecies all the time, right? It's like
• 1:12:34
  they don't prophesy ever to just one thing. Mm
• 1:12:36
  -hmm. Like they mean multiple things. Yeah often
• 1:12:39
  And I think there's something to be said for
• 1:12:41
  that here for sure so Actually, I wrote it down
• 1:12:44
  because there's a lot you brought your trusty
• 1:12:45
  notebook. I got my notebook Your legal pad yeah
• 1:12:50
  Where am I here so you actually so it's interesting
• 1:12:53
  it's revelation 13 18 I have a little excerpt
• 1:12:57
  written there do it and some people if they're
• 1:13:00
  familiar with the revelation you know where we're
• 1:13:01
  going here revelation 13 18 Calculate the number
• 1:13:05
  of the beast for it is the number of a man and
• 1:13:08
  his number is six six six That's like a deep
• 1:13:22
  deep inside joke this podcast so go back and
• 1:13:26
  listen you'll know when you find it watch and
• 1:13:29
  listen So, okay, we're talking about the Mark
• 1:13:42
  of the Beast. Revelation 1318. Yeah. 666. 666.
• 1:13:47
  So, we've talked about numerology a little bit.
• 1:13:50
  A little bit. Just the kabalistic, kabalistic?
• 1:13:55
  Kabalistic? Cable? All of those things? Cable
• 1:13:57
  guy? Jim Carrey? Jim Carrey. The mask? The mask?
• 1:14:02
  Liar, liar. Who is... THE PENNY! Anyway, there's
• 1:14:08
  this, uh, the belief. Alrighty then. I would
• 1:14:12
  not go in there. Somebody stop me. I tried to
• 1:14:18
  teach my four year old to say that. Somebody
• 1:14:21
  stop me. And he did, but then he doesn't repeat
• 1:14:24
  it now. I gotta remind him. Yeah. Hey, remember
• 1:14:27
  that funny thing? Somebody stop me. All right.
• 1:14:33
  I kind of love that. 666. Yeah. So, um, gematria?
• 1:14:40
  Sure. Let's go with that. So it's a cabalistic.
• 1:14:45
  Yeah, Kabbalistic method of interpreting the
• 1:14:48
  Hebrew scriptures by computing the numerical
• 1:14:50
  value of words Okay, so and I think I've said
• 1:14:53
  this on a past one on a past episode where every
• 1:14:56
  letter In the Hebrew language is associated with
• 1:14:59
  a number. Yeah, it's their alphabetical system.
• 1:15:02
  Yeah. Yeah It's there also their numeric system,
• 1:15:05
  correct? So it's one in the same. Yeah, which
• 1:15:07
  like the Chinese language is like that Many languages
• 1:15:10
  are like that with symbols. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah
• 1:15:13
  and so Not different here. And so what's interesting
• 1:15:18
  is, and the reason I bring all this up kind of
• 1:15:20
  together, is because Nero Caesar, in Hebrew,
• 1:15:24
  which is in Hebrew alphabet, which is a thing
• 1:15:26
  that I can't pronounce, and applying this like
• 1:15:31
  standard gematria to it. is given the numbers.
• 1:15:36
  Are you ready? 50, 200, six, 50, 100, 60, 200.
• 1:15:44
  Quick math. It equals 666. When you add them
• 1:15:48
  all together? When you add them all together.
• 1:15:50
  Why are there so many numbers? Because of each
• 1:15:51
  letter. Yeah, but you read more than four numbers.
• 1:15:55
  Yeah. For Nero Caesar. But it's not like the
• 1:16:02
  English. I understand. Spelling of that, but
• 1:16:05
  it's the Hebrew spelling of that. I have brain.
• 1:16:06
  I have brain in my head. Brain do think. Brain
• 1:16:10
  in there. Brain do big think. And so what's interesting
• 1:16:18
  with that is because this was a practice that
• 1:16:21
  we see, even in Pompeii, we actually have graffiti
• 1:16:24
  of someone using this, where they actually found
• 1:16:28
  written, this dates back to AD 79. Which reads,
• 1:16:34
  I love the woman whose number is 545. That's
• 1:16:38
  so weird to say that. It's really weird. But
• 1:16:40
  it's like they found this graffiti that someone
• 1:16:42
  had put up. But essentially using that same method
• 1:16:47
  of a secret code. But it sounds like they just
• 1:16:51
  didn't finish translating it. Yeah. It's like,
• 1:16:57
  call 1 -800 -PIZZA. OK. Well, just tell me the
• 1:17:01
  numbers. What's the number? Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:17:04
  In this case, they're like, pizza578. That's
• 1:17:10
  not enough letters. What? Please call us now
• 1:17:15
  at pizza578. It's also funny to me, again, going
• 1:17:18
  back to those people are just people, because
• 1:17:20
  how many of us, especially when we were kids,
• 1:17:22
  are writing in the sand like, Oh, P loves J.
• 1:17:26
  You know, it's just like, you know what I mean?
• 1:17:28
  It's like, this little kid like, I'm secretly.
• 1:17:31
  Oh, P loves J. Like, oh, that's me. Somebody
• 1:17:34
  stop me. Somebody stop me. But it's like this
• 1:17:38
  secret code that we think we're so clever with.
• 1:17:40
  Yeah, I get that. It's like, and that's what's
• 1:17:42
  happening here. Yeah. And so it's funny that
• 1:17:44
  it seems that possible, it could be likely that
• 1:17:50
  scripture is doing that very same thing. That's
• 1:17:52
  true. So when Scripture is saying, when we see
• 1:17:56
  666 here, if you take that with the Hebrew letters
• 1:18:01
  and the language, it could be talking about Nero.
• 1:18:04
  Yeah, because the letters, like when it switches
• 1:18:08
  from words to letters, you could also just read
• 1:18:11
  it as a word and it could be synonymous with
• 1:18:14
  Nero. Yeah, I mean, that makes sense because
• 1:18:18
  we see Nero 64 AD. He dies in 68 AD, right around
• 1:18:25
  the time that Jerusalem is burned. Nero does
• 1:18:29
  a bunch of things too. Does quite a lot, yeah.
• 1:18:33
  And there's a lot even inside, I mean this isn't
• 1:18:36
  a study on Revelation. No, no. And even then
• 1:18:38
  it's like that'd be a bajillion episodes. Yeah,
• 1:18:41
  which we should do at some point. I want to at
• 1:18:44
  some point. Especially on like the fall of Jerusalem
• 1:18:46
  and the abomination of desolation. Yeah. Yeah,
• 1:18:48
  cause that's all around this time. Yeah, and
• 1:18:51
  I think that's very on brand for us with martyrs,
• 1:18:54
  because that's where it all started. Yeah, because
• 1:18:56
  I think we would say that Revelation, just to
• 1:18:59
  briefly say it, I think we would probably both
• 1:19:02
  agree that Revelation is, John is kind of talking
• 1:19:06
  about things that are about to happen, and then
• 1:19:09
  are, will happen again. Still going to happen.
• 1:19:12
  Yeah. Yeah, and I think, and that's, again, like
• 1:19:15
  I was saying, even with the layers, the layers
• 1:19:17
  of everything. Yeah. I think there is a layer
• 1:19:20
  that was right for them at that time where it's
• 1:19:22
  like This destruction is gonna happen and this
• 1:19:24
  is what's happening. Yeah, what's yeah, what's
• 1:19:27
  happening? What's going to happen? Yeah, be prepared
• 1:19:28
  for it But also these very same things that I'm
• 1:19:31
  telling you also mean this other thing that isn't
• 1:19:34
  for you. Yeah Yeah, which is crazy. So like yeah,
• 1:19:38
  so it's our guy to use your phraseology. Our
• 1:19:45
  boy, our boy Philemon finds himself in this first
• 1:19:50
  wave of Nero wiping out a bunch of Christians.
• 1:19:54
  Right. Essentially for his own ego. The man was
• 1:19:57
  the first to go. I know. But so was everybody
• 1:20:00
  else in his house. Right. You know. Yeah. And
• 1:20:03
  that's I think that's the cool thing about this
• 1:20:05
  when we see even with that just he didn't die,
• 1:20:08
  but all of his family did, too. I mean, that's
• 1:20:10
  not cool when you put it like that. But as far
• 1:20:14
  as the unity that they all believed and their
• 1:20:17
  faith was united in that. Yeah, that's true.
• 1:20:20
  Even with some of the questionable things. Yeah.
• 1:20:24
  Yeah, good point. Yeah, because so maybe let's
• 1:20:28
  briefly, because I feel like martyrs row, we
• 1:20:31
  kind of talk about all the other stuff that isn't
• 1:20:34
  just plain Bible study. Yeah. Because we like
• 1:20:38
  to go beyond that. Yeah. Not to say that plain
• 1:20:40
  Bible study is wrong or boring. It's not. No,
• 1:20:43
  it's just. It's just not the. scope of where
• 1:20:45
  we want to hit. Yeah, it's Sunday school. This
• 1:20:47
  is an aid to Sunday school. Yeah. This makes
• 1:20:50
  Sunday school more interesting. This is Sunday
• 1:20:51
  school after hours. This is Sunday night school.
• 1:20:58
  Yeah, this is fourth meal Sunday school. You're
• 1:21:01
  going to be full. Yeah. To overflowing. No, but
• 1:21:09
  I think. I think so, because we've been talking
• 1:21:11
  about Philemon, and it is a short letter, how
• 1:21:14
  about we just give a synopsis of what Philemon
• 1:21:17
  was about and go back to our original question,
• 1:21:19
  which is, Philemon, holy, what do we call him?
• 1:21:25
  Holy Apostle? Holy Apostle and or slave owner?
• 1:21:33
  He just gets weirder and weirder every time.
• 1:21:36
  I know. Yeah, so yeah. Is he one, is he the other,
• 1:21:41
  is he both things? Right. So like we kind of
• 1:21:45
  established early on who Philemon was. I mean
• 1:21:47
  he's essentially a well -off person and well
• 1:21:51
  -off people who are Roman citizens. It was normal
• 1:21:55
  for that society, for well -off society, well
• 1:21:58
  -off people in the society, in Roman society.
• 1:22:00
  Because Philemon's not Jewish, he's a Roman citizen.
• 1:22:04
  Right. So he's a Roman. He's a Rome. Where's
• 1:22:09
  he going? He naturally has slaves. Right. Because
• 1:22:14
  that's what well off people did. That was normal
• 1:22:17
  for the society. Yeah, it's like people now that
• 1:22:21
  have enough money have a car. Right. It's like
• 1:22:23
  you just... I mean, it's not the equivalent,
• 1:22:25
  but it's like a private chef. But that's how
• 1:22:27
  they looked at it back then. Yeah. It was like,
• 1:22:29
  this is just something that they have. Yeah.
• 1:22:31
  A private chef is probably a better example.
• 1:22:35
  A little more equal trade going on there. And
• 1:22:37
  they get to go home. Like a trainer and yeah.
• 1:22:41
  There are chefs that live with people. That's
• 1:22:43
  true. A living chef. Yeah. A living chef. A chef?
• 1:22:50
  I like to add T's whenever I can. Achieved? I've
• 1:22:55
  achieved it. Yeah, so he had slaves. Yeah, so
• 1:23:00
  I think on one hand it's like so we see him part
• 1:23:05
  of the church running his own church. Right.
• 1:23:08
  And so he's established within the faith. Yeah.
• 1:23:11
  And we see that he has at least one slave that
• 1:23:14
  he owned. Yeah, and that's interesting because
• 1:23:17
  essentially what we see in the process of like
• 1:23:22
  salvation, then sanctification. We kind of see
• 1:23:24
  it play out also in the New Testament through
• 1:23:28
  different individuals and the ways that they
• 1:23:30
  have to let go of worldly structures and take
• 1:23:34
  on things. Like even Jesus with the rich man
• 1:23:36
  is like, what should I do? And he says, well,
• 1:23:39
  obey the law and the prophets. He's like, I've
• 1:23:43
  already done that. I've done it since I was a
• 1:23:45
  boy. And he says, okay, well then. what you have
• 1:23:48
  to do is give up everything that you have and
• 1:23:50
  come follow me. And it's like, okay, there's
• 1:23:53
  other worldly things to shed off. So Philemon
• 1:23:56
  is challenged. But what happens is, Onesimus?
• 1:24:01
  Onesimus actually escapes. He runs away. He most
• 1:24:05
  likely does something that wrongs Philemon, is
• 1:24:08
  what it looks like. Yes. He does some wrong,
• 1:24:10
  whatever that is, we don't know. Right. And then,
• 1:24:13
  yeah. And he flees. Yeah. And at some point after
• 1:24:16
  he flees, he finds Paul in prison in Ephesus.
• 1:24:20
  Yeah. And when he finds Paul in prison in Ephesus,
• 1:24:24
  he becomes an assistant to Paul. Yeah, and Paul
• 1:24:26
  leads him to Christ. Yeah. So, which is a whole
• 1:24:30
  interesting thing because... Yeah. that means
• 1:24:32
  that while he was in Philemon's house, he doesn't
• 1:24:35
  come to know Christ. But when he goes and meets
• 1:24:39
  Paul, who potentially had a hand in Philemon's
• 1:24:43
  conversion, he then is converted himself. And
• 1:24:48
  then Paul really cares for Anissimus and basically
• 1:24:56
  reaches out to Philemon in order to in order
• 1:25:01
  to have him fully freed, but not just free to
• 1:25:05
  do whatever he wants. I'm free to do whatever
• 1:25:08
  I want. That's how that goes, right? It sure
• 1:25:11
  does. I don't even know it. Something like that.
• 1:25:15
  Just break out in a song. I actually don't know
• 1:25:17
  the song. Oh really? I was like, yeah, that's
• 1:25:19
  how it goes. It's like a shoe commercial. I mean,
• 1:25:21
  it's not. It's an old song, but it's... In a
• 1:25:24
  shoe commercial? You've probably heard it in
• 1:25:25
  a shoe commercial. Okay. But, yeah, so... But
• 1:25:29
  the cool thing about the request is first, as
• 1:25:35
  the letter lays out, he kinda honors Philemon's
• 1:25:39
  position. Well, I think that's the big thing
• 1:25:42
  that stands out to me. Okay. In the very beginning
• 1:25:45
  of it. Yeah. Which is exactly what you're saying.
• 1:25:47
  Yeah. Is that it's Philemon one, believe it or
• 1:25:51
  not. No chapter two. Nope. It's not even one.
• 1:25:55
  No, it's just Philemon. Eight through nine. Like
• 1:25:58
  chapters? No verses. But even there, Paul writes,
• 1:26:05
  I am bold enough in Christ to command you to
• 1:26:08
  do what is required. Yet for love's sake, I prefer
• 1:26:11
  to appeal to you. Right. And I think what's interesting
• 1:26:14
  on that and multiple points. Yeah. One, it's
• 1:26:17
  showing the Paul's. stance on slavery. Right.
• 1:26:22
  Or also we can even say Christianity's faith
• 1:26:24
  stance on it. Yeah. Because he says I'm bold
• 1:26:26
  in Christ that I can tell you do you have to
• 1:26:29
  do what's required. It's like well do what what's
• 1:26:31
  required. Well they're talking about anesimus.
• 1:26:33
  Right. But he's like but I'm not going to do
• 1:26:35
  that. I can do that but I'm not going to. I'm
• 1:26:37
  going to appeal to you and a reason with you.
• 1:26:39
  Yeah. And hope that you do the right thing. Yeah.
• 1:26:42
  Yeah. And so essentially what he does is he's
• 1:26:45
  he honors him his position. Yeah. He honors honors
• 1:26:49
  him also in I think in his Like the funny thing
• 1:26:54
  is like Paul's writing this from prison. Yeah
• 1:26:57
  And and Philemon is a wealthy man who's not in
• 1:27:02
  prison. Yeah, and he basically asks him Hey,
• 1:27:06
  I I would I'm asking you that you know, basically
• 1:27:10
  according to the gospel of Jesus This is a way
• 1:27:13
  that you can live out what you've been taught
• 1:27:17
  And you mentioned it very early on that Philemon's
• 1:27:20
  the only letter that Paul writes that doesn't
• 1:27:22
  explicitly talk about the death and the resurrection
• 1:27:25
  of Jesus. But it does explicitly show an example
• 1:27:31
  of how Jesus took our place. Because what Paul
• 1:27:35
  does is he says, all right, so Philemon, here's
• 1:27:38
  what I want you to do. I feel like I have a position
• 1:27:42
  of authority in your life as a leader, as a Christian
• 1:27:45
  leader of how you should change and shift towards
• 1:27:49
  Christ -likeness. And this is what I think that
• 1:27:52
  you should do. I think that you should not only
• 1:27:55
  positionally free Onesimus, but you should accept
• 1:28:01
  him in as a brother. Accept him in as part of
• 1:28:05
  you, part of your household. That I named early
• 1:28:08
  on. bring him in as a brother, bring him in as
• 1:28:12
  part. And the cool thing about that is that's
• 1:28:19
  going against the Roman society. So it would
• 1:28:26
  have been frowned upon for Philemon in Roman
• 1:28:29
  society, in the circles he was in, for them to
• 1:28:34
  find out that his slave is now his brother. Right
• 1:28:37
  and and the cool thing about that is like that's
• 1:28:39
  like like the slave is now the brother. Isn't
• 1:28:42
  that a Christmas? Him It's a holy night Yeah
• 1:28:56
  It's Christmas in July Yeah, Oh Holy Night. That's
• 1:29:09
  Oh Holy Night. I wanna say Oh Holy Night. Well,
• 1:29:15
  no, it's how the song starts. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
• 1:29:18
  You know, I just wanted to throw it in. I just
• 1:29:19
  wanted to say it. We're so used to songs being
• 1:29:22
  named by the last thing that's said. Yeah, like
• 1:29:24
  landing the chorus. Yeah. But now, but back then
• 1:29:27
  it was what the first lyric was. It means every
• 1:29:29
  song we'd ever written on the show is called
• 1:29:31
  Martyrs Row. Wasn't that the point? Which is
• 1:29:34
  the point. Actually, the song tonight is called
• 1:29:41
  Shout Out to the Faith Heroes. I like that. Okay,
• 1:29:47
  so he's appealing to him to not only free Onesimus,
• 1:29:53
  but take him in as a brother and look at him
• 1:29:56
  as an equal. And he's saying that In Christ,
• 1:29:59
  there is no condemnation. There is no slave or
• 1:30:04
  free man. There is no Jew. There is no Gentile.
• 1:30:06
  We are all one under Christ. So it's the message
• 1:30:10
  of the gospel. He's essentially, instead of preaching
• 1:30:14
  what it is, he's saying, here's how you can practically
• 1:30:17
  do it with this specific person. And the cool
• 1:30:20
  thing that Paul does is he says, and he basically
• 1:30:24
  says, I will take the place of whatever this
• 1:30:30
  is gonna cost you Philemon, I will take that
• 1:30:34
  on as myself, Paul. So I'll pay for it and whatever
• 1:30:39
  this looks like, just put it back on me. So in
• 1:30:43
  that way, Paul is becoming Jesus to Philemon
• 1:30:47
  and to Onesimus as Philemon has the opportunity
• 1:30:51
  to become Jesus to Onesimus. So it's this like...
• 1:30:55
  death and resurrection happening. It's a playing
• 1:30:58
  out of like, this is what it practically looks
• 1:31:00
  like for us. Yeah. To live this out. Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:31:03
  Like if we're gonna be church leaders, this is
• 1:31:04
  what we, this is how we do that by example. Yeah.
• 1:31:07
  By our love for one another is how they'll know
• 1:31:10
  you, is what Jesus says. Yeah. So yeah. Now,
• 1:31:14
  the thing I was gonna ask you is, I didn't look
• 1:31:17
  this up and I don't know that there is a resolve
• 1:31:19
  to this. Do we even know if Philemon did this?
• 1:31:22
  Well, you know, that's a great question. I think
• 1:31:27
  explicitly we can't say that he did or didn't
• 1:31:29
  do this. Yeah. But I think traditionally when
• 1:31:32
  we see the fact that Onesimus is named or honored
• 1:31:35
  in the death with the rest of the family. I think
• 1:31:39
  that's Nero's fault. Well, no, not the fact that
• 1:31:44
  he's named. Onesimus is named because he was
• 1:31:46
  just still just a slave. Yeah, he wouldn't have
• 1:31:48
  been named. He wouldn't have been named. Great
• 1:31:49
  point. So I think the fact that they do name
• 1:31:51
  him kind of honors his position. Yeah, true.
• 1:31:55
  So that, so for me, looking at it's like, I think
• 1:31:57
  that Philemon did do that and probably did even
• 1:32:00
  more. Yeah. Cause that's even one of the things
• 1:32:02
  that Paul talks about. He's like, he's, it's
• 1:32:05
  funny. Paul's blatant way of saying things. He
• 1:32:08
  wasn't useful before, but now he is. Which is
• 1:32:12
  like, I think he writes that midway through the
• 1:32:14
  letter. But as far as for your ministry, he has
• 1:32:16
  so much more purpose and use for you now in the
• 1:32:19
  ministry that we're trying to grow that use him
• 1:32:22
  for that. Let him be useful. Which I think actually
• 1:32:25
  his name means useful. Which is awesome. Of course
• 1:32:29
  it would. Of course. That would also be consistent
• 1:32:33
  with martyrs row. Um, but yeah, so I love that
• 1:32:38
  picture because it kind of shows this unity um
• 1:32:41
  in breaking through it's essentially it's finding
• 1:32:44
  it's breaking through our um our political views
• 1:32:50
  you're right how we play through things and um
• 1:32:54
  it means useful profitable or beneficial oh sick
• 1:32:57
  so onissimus literally means useful profitable
• 1:33:01
  i pulled that out of somewhere i don't know where
• 1:33:04
  That's really cool. It was deep in there. Yeah.
• 1:33:07
  That's cool. But I think that's an important
• 1:33:09
  thing, you know, to, I think especially with
• 1:33:12
  this topic, it's important to jump a little bit
• 1:33:14
  into the more Bible, practical Bible study side.
• 1:33:20
  Yeah, for sure. In the sense of saying, because
• 1:33:22
  this is a very common thing even with Jesus,
• 1:33:25
  where his... was not to reform the political
• 1:33:28
  state. Like that's not what he cared about. And
• 1:33:32
  we see that, especially when they talk about
• 1:33:33
  the taxes, like give to Caesar what is Caesar's
• 1:33:35
  and give to what is God's. And it's like, he's
• 1:33:38
  focused on that. And it's like, through this,
• 1:33:41
  and we see Paul playing that, he's like, through
• 1:33:44
  our spiritual understanding, we'll see reform.
• 1:33:48
  Because we're gonna carry those values into everything.
• 1:33:52
  And we see that with Philemon. That reform, as
• 1:33:55
  Paul appeals to him, it's like, oh, okay, I need
• 1:33:57
  to change. Well, but the thing is, is like, the
• 1:33:59
  difference is, worldly reform is different. So
• 1:34:03
  the kingdom of God doesn't need reform. We need
• 1:34:06
  to be formed into it. Right. So the difference
• 1:34:09
  is, is like, like we, we, and that's the problem
• 1:34:12
  with like already, but not yet kingdom theology
• 1:34:16
  is that. Not eschatology, but the kingdom theology
• 1:34:20
  of already but not yet in them in the moving
• 1:34:22
  of like we're moving towards everything is gradually
• 1:34:25
  getting better until It is it becomes Eden again.
• 1:34:29
  Yeah, it's like well. That's not that's not what's
• 1:34:32
  happening not it know what's happening is heaven
• 1:34:34
  and earth will pass away and Because things aren't
• 1:34:38
  going to gradually get better in fact it says
• 1:34:41
  that they'll gradually get worse and revelation
• 1:34:43
  yeah, and then it will be destroyed and then
• 1:34:46
  The kingdom of God will be fully realized as
• 1:34:50
  Jesus himself by himself Creates it. Yeah. Yeah
• 1:34:56
  as it was created in the beginning for him and
• 1:35:00
  by him and through him Yeah, which is what the
• 1:35:02
  scripture tells us. So like it's cool because
• 1:35:05
  it's like we're not reforming To bring the kingdom
• 1:35:10
  of God Into real time when we reform to the gospel,
• 1:35:17
  then we're representing what the kingdom of God
• 1:35:19
  looks like. And us becoming part of that, which
• 1:35:24
  is not realized on the earth, except through
• 1:35:28
  our actions that are counter to worldly actions.
• 1:35:32
  So Philemon is an example to, or he is a witness
• 1:35:37
  to those in his sociological, economical standing.
• 1:35:43
  in the Roman society of him as a Christ follower
• 1:35:46
  by saying, hey, my slave is now my brother. And
• 1:35:51
  then he just sings, oh, holy night until the
• 1:35:53
  stars come out. It's written down somewhere,
• 1:35:56
  I think. But I love that. So like going all the
• 1:35:59
  way back to the very beginning, not just the
• 1:36:03
  question that you ask, is Philemon like holy?
• 1:36:08
  Well, I think that's it's a holy apostle. I keep
• 1:36:11
  forgetting apostle. Yeah, but I think that's
• 1:36:13
  the thing that we see with him to that it was
• 1:36:16
  just Probably where you're going. Yeah, and it's
• 1:36:19
  like well Yes, he was both of those things right
• 1:36:22
  and he became just one of those things Yeah,
• 1:36:26
  I see what you mean. Yeah But yeah, it's one
• 1:36:29
  of those like we're all You said it early in
• 1:36:31
  this episode too. It's that process of sanctification.
• 1:36:34
  Yeah, we're on a journey It's like the things
• 1:36:35
  we realized now is for the rich man. Yeah, Jesus
• 1:36:38
  is like, okay. What are you doing this thing,
• 1:36:40
  right? I'm doing he's like, okay cool. So we
• 1:36:42
  don't have to focus on that Yeah, now let's focus
• 1:36:44
  on the next thing Yeah, and I think that that
• 1:36:46
  happens for us is like in what we're convicted
• 1:36:48
  of in our own lives. It changes over time Well,
• 1:36:51
  I'm dealing with this right now but now, praise
• 1:36:54
  God, I've overcome that. Or at least I'm on the
• 1:36:56
  other side of it. And it's like, okay, now what's
• 1:36:59
  the next thing I need to work on? And it could
• 1:37:01
  be something you thought you were doing well
• 1:37:03
  before, and it's like, oh, that's actually wrong?
• 1:37:05
  Okay, let me fix this. Yeah, and to just put
• 1:37:10
  a bow on it, in the reading of the martyr reading
• 1:37:17
  at the very beginning of this episode, being
• 1:37:20
  able to name them out, Afias. Well, it's our.
• 1:37:26
  Arcapus. Afia, Arcapus, and Onesimus. Yeah, with
• 1:37:32
  Philemon. That's the family. Yeah. And that's
• 1:37:35
  the family as a result to Paul's pleading an
• 1:37:39
  example to Philemon. Yeah. In the letter to Philemon
• 1:37:43
  with Timothy, of course, in order to plead to
• 1:37:47
  him to. be a representation of the gospel, making
• 1:37:52
  his slave his brother. And we can kind of safely
• 1:37:57
  say, well, if the history books write down the
• 1:37:59
  slave's name, then that slave was no longer a
• 1:38:02
  slave at the point of death, historically speaking.
• 1:38:05
  But he was honored as a household member. Yeah.
• 1:38:08
  Which is, like, that's an example of the gospel.
• 1:38:13
  Yeah, absolutely. So Philemon. Holy Apostle?
• 1:38:18
  I think so. I think so. An ex -slave owner? Also
• 1:38:22
  true. Indubitably. Well, here we are. There's
• 1:38:27
  old Philemon. Oh, Philemon. Oh, Philemon. Philemon.
• 1:38:34
  Well, we're just going to keep going, episode
• 1:38:36
  to episode. And somebody stop me. Three, two,
• 1:38:43
  one.