Latest / College Is Fine, Everything's Fine / #88 From Classroom to Cubicle: A No-Panic Guide to Internships and Job Searching
Transcript
- College Is Fine Podcast: Okay, we have a timely topic today, ⁓ something that I often talk a about with college students that I work with, but have very little expertise. I've been out of the game, guys, of applying for internships and jobs ⁓ for very long time. but it causes a lot of anxiety and stress. And of course, ⁓ once you get to college, I think you forget about the fact that you have to plan for what you're gonna do after you go to college. So I'm really, really excited that we have a guest on that. This is their cup of tea. This is their expertise. So I would love for Jennifer for you to introduce yourself to our listeners. Jennifer Gershberg: Thank you so much and thank you for having me. My name is Jennifer Gershberg. I am a campus speaker and parent speaker and course creator really focused on college student success. So much of my work is informed by my past as a professor at the University of Maryland. I spent eight years there and had thousands of students and I sort of figured out over time students are struggling with and what they're really good at ⁓ the best ways we can support them in these changing times. So ⁓ is what I focus on now. And I focus on both the transition to college and the professional and skills that they need ⁓ to go in the world and ⁓ do great College Is Fine Podcast: It's so nice to have you because, um, and Liz and I say a lot, a lot of the most therapeutic advice people can get aren't, isn't necessarily from therapists. It's from mentors. It's from people who've been in the, in the thick of things. You, you mentioned you have two twin daughters. I always say two twins as if there's like a third, you know, third, um, and who are going through the college application kind of exploratory process now. So you're in the thick of it across the board, right? You've probably seen, um, every single stage of this. And so. You know, Liz, you were saying you have to prepare for after college. I don't always remember the places I apply, but it's hard to, ⁓ it's hard to forget the anxiety that it brings, especially because so many conversations are happening amongst your friends. Who's getting this internship, et cetera. So when you're talking directly to your students, you have a tagline that you're nurturing, but tough. And when it comes for preparing for that internship world, that working world, Right. What are some similarities and differences that you notice when people go from the educational setting to the work setting? And do you find that there's a shift or a balance that they need to have? Jennifer Gershberg: So being nurturing but tough actually was coined by one of my former students and I just love it so much that that is on my website now. I think it describes me very well, but it really is that, you know, I think it's really important to have high expectations of students, of employees. So in that way it's the same, but to support their growth and to provide the resources that you can to help them and be successful and be independent. ⁓ I think being nurturing but tough is something that, ⁓ mean, honestly, all ⁓ should. aspire to. Being told I'm nurturing the tough is like the greatest compliment. And, ⁓ know, employers should for that as well. It makes for the healthiest working environments ⁓ where have the potential ⁓ and, know, ⁓ to the best they can be ⁓ and do really great things. ⁓ If supported and they know people expect things of them. We don't do students any favor College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah. Jennifer Gershberg: when we expect little of them. College Is Fine Podcast: No, that's true. And then have you had times where you've had to be nurturing but tough to someone who has maybe different expectations of the workforce ⁓ employee, right? There's that fit of, you you want a certain type of internship, your is making or your supervisor is making the call. So what are some tough but nurturing moments you've had to have when getting someone prepared for the working world? Jennifer Gershberg: Well, I think... In terms of the nurturing aspect, I think there are ways, and I certainly try to do this when I'm doing my student programs and talks, trying to ⁓ them realize ⁓ to leverage their experiences professionally ⁓ how many skills they've developed even ⁓ mean, ⁓ example, a lot of students ⁓ concerned when they're writing their resumes and they say, ⁓ I've only had sort of menial jobs. I can't really include that in a resume for an internship at the college level. I always say, why ⁓ What did you develop from that job? Let's think about that. Let's think about ⁓ what demonstrated, what skills you've acquired. and how they translate to the job you're applying for. And that's the purpose of a resume is to sort of match that. So I think that's where the nurturing part comes in. In terms of tough, I think it's important to keep things real and to push back when students that there's only one path for them. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Mm. Jennifer Gershberg: That's something that I push back on pretty strongly because I don't believe it's true. And I think students often sell themselves short when they at things so narrowly. ⁓ we talk about that when ⁓ sometimes believe they should walk into a job just because they have really good grades, but they don't have pertinent experience. there are those conversations to have. So I think it's about being honest in a kind of way. College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Yeah, I mean, you brought up something, Jennifer, about this of confidence in terms of what their resume looks like. And I think Sarah and I hear a lot about wanting to prep interviews. What advice do we have to kind of regulate their anxiety? And for a lot of them, they don't have a lot of practice doing some of these formal Zoom interviews. Jennifer Gershberg: Right. College Is Fine Podcast: And you talk a little bit about building confidence and competence and the difference between the two of them. What are your thoughts about that? Like, does one come first, you know, this idea of fake it to make it? You know, I think feeling confident and entering into an interview is a goal lot of students have that I speak with. And they also have skills deficits because they haven't had a lot of interview experience. Jennifer Gershberg: Yep. College Is Fine Podcast: Right, they don't know how to do it yet. Right. So what are your thoughts on those two C's, confidence and confidence? Jennifer Gershberg: Exactly. So I am firmly in the camp of confidence breeds confidence. I think competence comes first. don't believe in fake it till you make it. I know there are people who disagree. I just think it's, we fool ourselves. We know better. We're not going to feel confident if we know we're unskilled and unprepared. ⁓ It's it's not like real confidence. I believe ⁓ real confidence is derived ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gershberg: growing your skills. So I take a very skills-based approach to everything, to teaching students who are entering college how to study, how to manage their time, how to get to know professors. There are ways of doing these things. How to tailor a resume to the target job, how to network. ⁓ of these things require certain skills. And when you develop the skills and you some success and keep going with it and ⁓ yourself better at it and you start to realize the value you bring to others, that's what ⁓ authentic confidence. College Is Fine Podcast: Right. Yeah, I like that idea. And I think it's fine not to have competence yet when you haven't had to grow that skill set, right? So I don't know. I just kind of imagine all these baby deer with their wobbly legs when comes to going into a job interview, because it's probably different than anything you've ever experienced before. so let's say, though, a student is prepping for an interview, and you're giving them some practical tips, ⁓ right? They're going in or they're even starting their first day on a summer internship. What are some things they can do to prep for an interview if they haven't had one yet, but probably by the time our listeners are hearing this, it's more about what are the things they can do right now to set them up for success when they go in on that first day. Jennifer Gershberg: Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah. Jennifer Gershberg: Yep. So that's a great question. And I would say the most important thing is to do their research on both the company and the job position that they're applying for. Try to get as much information ahead of time. I know it's not always easy, we have the internet. easier now than it ever has been. So I think they should try to the extent possible to learn as much as they can about the company and about ⁓ the so that their responses are aligned with the reality of the job. there are things that will make them more confident, understanding the dress code and dressing appropriately, knowing where they're going so they're not frantic and lost and running in late. And then ⁓ in think... College Is Fine Podcast: Hmm. Jennifer Gershberg: figuring out what skills the job. is looking for and job descriptions always include that, you know, like the job qualifications. So they should think ahead of time about the experiences they've had and how those experiences match and prove the skills that the company is looking for for that particular job. think those are the really most important steps can take to prep for the interview. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Have you had times where, especially if this is an internship, the understanding is that you might also be learning skills as well, right? So terms of the anxiety a student might be feeling about going in, a lot of times, Liz, I don't know if you have the same ⁓ happening where they're going in threading as well, right? There's a difference between being prepared and like preparation, almost paralysis where ⁓ Jennifer Gershberg: Absolutely. Yep. College Is Fine Podcast: Right. The expectation is you come in as the expert. You're not the expert. You're an intern. There's a reason for this role. Have you seen people be able to get past that hump of I'm allowed to both prepare, I also am here to learn? What is that balance? Jennifer Gershberg: Absolutely. ⁓ Absolutely. I mean, on a personal note, I've been going through this with my son, who's a sophomore in college and interviewing for internships. So we have this conversation all the time. It's like, you have to, they expect that there's a lot you don't know. You're still in college. You're not expected to have a great wealth of knowledge. What you should know about is what they're looking for. They're not looking for an expert or they would not be hiring a college student intern, right? But they are looking for certain qualities. So you want to make sure you can demonstrate the qualities and be very upfront. College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Right. Jennifer Gershberg: with the employer about you don't know ⁓ what you're hoping to learn. They're looking for ⁓ students are curious and eager to learn and have ⁓ positive energy toward learning. That's the whole, really the point an internship. ⁓ That won't be liability. College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Right. I think you pointed that out. remember an old mentor of mine when I was helping with interviewing for interns was like, you're going to see a lot of people on their resumes all look the same. the eagerness, curiosity, the people skills, friendliness, you have to work with this person. You have to train them. You really want them to be likable. that there are these a lot of qualities that they could be focusing on that I feel like a lot of. interns get like really rational, like about like what they, you know, and maybe like forget about, you know, how they're going to portray themselves. So on that note, any rookie mistakes that interns make, either applying during the interview process or even when their feet land into the internship? Jennifer Gershberg: Absolutely. So yes, I would say of the biggest is failure to communicate. And I mean by this is often interns are really nervous because they don't want to make a bad impression. So they think that if they ask questions or if they communicate a problem they're having, or if they communicate like a deadline being hard to meet or whatever it is, that they will be seen badly. So what happens often, way too often, is that interns will over promise and under deliver. that is a huge, huge, huge mistake because they be immediately pegged as unreliable. It's the worst thing they can do. So I try to remind students to avoid that. Of course they to yes to everything because they think it is impressive. But if you say yes to something, you have to make sure to through. So I would say, ⁓ know, not communicating ⁓ status a long-term project or how the timing is looking. Sometimes they ask enough questions in the beginning because they feel like they'll look dumb or something. ⁓ That's a mistake because then College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gershberg: are much less efficient and they just don't go as well. So I would say it's really important for interns to go to every meeting with a pad and pen, take notes, ask questions, very clear when they take on an assignment ⁓ exactly what's ⁓ when the is, ⁓ what resources available to them, et cetera. But be really sort of clear from the start. College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gershberg: and keep your supervisors colleagues sort of updated ⁓ as the requires. ⁓ ⁓ I talked into it about that. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: Right. You know, you mentioned pad and pen and this might sound, this might, well, you know, joke all the time. I'm like, look, we have research to say that pen on paper changes the way that your brain does stuff, blah, blah, blah, blah, everyone's going to roll their eyes. Fine, fine, fine. Have you had people, cause I do think that students get really used to typing on their laptops or, Yeah. taking notes on phones. It's not always something that's disrespectful. It's probably getting the job done according to their brain. But what's the mismatch there? Why is pen and paper or some way of writing things down? Why does it need to be different from perhaps their typical ways? Jennifer Gershberg: you. Well, I would say a phone is just not optimal in any event. mean, phones are fine for like our Google calendars and our own personal notes apps, but I don't think it's professional to take notes when you're receiving an assignment to pull out your phone and start typing in your notes app. I just think that's, just not. ⁓ I don't think it's appropriate and I don't think it's as efficient either. I mean, I guess a laptop is fine. I'm old and I'm old school and I'm very happy to admit that because I think it's the better way. But I always am partial to handwriting. I think it ⁓ clear the research bears this out that ⁓ helps. people remember better, it helps process better. just think it's better way to do things, but I'm not opposed if they want to type it on a laptop. That's ⁓ up them. I can, you know. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah. Right. You're not like, God, no. Okay. ⁓ well, so, and, and part of what I was thinking about with that is like, there's always these practical tips that, you know, they want you to know this particular piece of software or the day starts at 9 a.m. So time management, et cetera. So there's all these specific qualities, like you said, that they're looking for. And then there's. Right. the kind of what I would think of as like the more softer or nuanced things like the relationships and the networking that you build. So I know you've talked a lot about teaching students how to build real relationships and what is the reason for that? Jennifer Gershberg: you Thank College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gershberg: very passionate about this. I firmly believe that Having good relationships and finding good mentors is essential ⁓ success and to happiness and to personal and professional satisfaction, ⁓ matter what level in your career ⁓ are. It starts in school ⁓ and continues throughout a career. So ⁓ I always ⁓ relationships to you know, mentors very important no matter whether you're in school or in the workforce. ⁓ you know, they're people to learn from. They're who can support you. And they also make whatever you're doing day to day just more enjoyable. ⁓ And it you feel more invested. So I just, I don't think it can be understated or overstated, ⁓ I should the importance of these relationships. ⁓ And I ⁓ a lot this with students about how to build College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Yeah. Jennifer Gershberg: networks. I think it's really important and it's important for them to first foremost about how they can help other people. ⁓ That's the foundation of good relationship. College Is Fine Podcast: So this is to follow up, sometimes when people say helping other people, I would say, all right, if I'm watching you help other people, what am I seeing? Because helping other people might, it's great advice, but what does helping other people look like? ⁓ Jennifer Gershberg: So it can depend and I'm glad you asked that because it can take so many different forms. You know, you ultimately have to figure out what value you bring. notice someone's having problem ⁓ or a predicament or you have a resource that might help them or you have an idea that might help them, it doesn't need to be ⁓ some ordeal that will cost you a lot of College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm Jennifer Gershberg: anything. But is helpful in general to sort of go through your day and think about value you can bring to others. And again, that can take many different forms. But even at a networking event, I like to recommend to students when they meet an employer or recruiter to ask them what of the challenges of their job ⁓ are. Like, ⁓ are challenges that the company's facing? What are the challenges in your job? Because it it gets them talking instead of like, yes, no questions. And it gets the student thinking about, what do I know that I can help provide? And it puts them in a really good position when they can have an intelligent conversation with the employer and actually offer some sort of empathy to the employer. It kind of like... College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gershberg: recalibrates the relationship a little and it can be really, really good for students. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah, and they have a perspective, perhaps more like, most likely like a younger, modern perspective. They have a different way of thinking about it than someone who's been in it. So it's a way for that. Yeah, I love that. Yeah. Jennifer Gershberg: Different generations, you know, like we're all good at different things. I mean, I social media interns to help with my social media because again, I'm old, like that is not my thing, but I have it, so I hire college students to do it for me. You know, that's how it has to be. College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah, right. Right. Right. Well, one, I'm glad you're talking about this. We've done panels with college students. think one of their biggest regrets is not forming relationships with professors and faculty. They go through four years of schooling and they're like, wait, I have nobody to be my letter of recommendation applying to grad school, et cetera. But the concept of networking, this is where I think they, it's such a novel concept. And I think, Jennifer Gershberg: Good night. College Is Fine Podcast: Even students I work with that are not, they think networking is like a business related field thing. And I usually tell them, I'm like, everything I got out of my career was related to who I knew and a relationship that I had with someone. And when I went into psychology, I never in a million years thought that that was important. I think there is an initial visual reaction, like, ⁓ my God, networking, like they kind of like freeze and are terrified, don't love small talk. ⁓ yeah. Jennifer Gershberg: Yeah. College Is Fine Podcast: To the student that has a networking event, maybe coming up with alumni on campus, feels really awkward about putting themselves out there, what would you say to them? Jennifer Gershberg: I would say networking is done one relationship at a time. all have at one successful relationship, right? ⁓ like do it again. it again. Like all capable of having positive relationships. You're not gonna click with everyone and that's okay, ⁓ but ⁓ your network in school. Your friends are your network. Your professors are your network. I teach students exactly how to and sustain good relationships with professors because that is networking. ⁓ you break it down and make it something they're already doing day to day, networking is like having conversation and finding connection with a person. College Is Fine Podcast: Right. Jennifer Gershberg: And that's all it is. It's not really about going to a networking event handing out 100 copies of your resume and never hearing from anyone again. Like that's not networking. Networking is what you're already doing ⁓ you keep doing it with new people you meet. ⁓ that's all it is. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: I like that too, that it's, cause I also don't want it to feel pressure like, oh my gosh, I have to hit 10 or a hundred, you know, whatever mentors or this, that the other, like the network Liz that you're describing was, is built over time. You can kind of look back and say, Oh, I have built this network, but that's over a lot of years. And it starts with one person or it could be the person you're sitting next to it. Sometimes it's, hard to know who that important person will be. And I think that to your point about just, Yeah. Jennifer Gershberg: Yeah. Right. College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Being somebody who is curious and helpful open to having conversations is great because you might think it's going to be this one person. And you never know. Your college roommate might be the best network have down the road. So you can't guess at who's going to actually be that person. ⁓ So it's ⁓ just matter of slowly building that up over time. ⁓ Jennifer Gershberg: You can't. Absolutely. And doing things that will engender trust, which is being kind, being inclusive, being helpful, doing the things, showing up, and doing the things that will encourage to trust you and look to you ⁓ for... College Is Fine Podcast: Yeah. Jennifer Gershberg: what you offer. And I always tell students this also leads to more authentic confidence because when we see over time the value we bring, we feel better about ourselves. College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm. Right. Right. you said earlier, every generation is good at something. And I think that's so true. Obviously we all wanna think our is the best, but the truth is that we all have our strengths, we all have our weaknesses. What do you see, what is at times maybe a myth about Gen Z, or what do think employers misunderstand about them? ⁓ And then what do students need to know? ahead of time so they can be aware of that perception. Mm-hmm. Jennifer Gershberg: Yeah, that's a really important question because as you know, there's a huge divide right now between employers and Gen Z. So, you know, I think we need to understand Gen Z has dealt with things that we never had to deal with as kids. They dealt with COVID and a lockdown and they're nervous about the job market and all the uncertainty out there. And get very stressed out about that. So I think it's important to have empathy ⁓ from they're coming from. You know, I think Gen Z students should try to be aware of the perception that we old people have of them. And that is often that they look at jobs as sort of short term, that they're not very committed to what they take on, that, you know, just because we all grew up working ⁓ an office every day, College Is Fine Podcast: Mm. Jennifer Gershberg: doesn't mean they should. ⁓ There's a whole different frame of reference. It's like we're coming from two different worlds. so, know, ⁓ of people in older generations view them as and disengaged. ⁓ And may may not be true. I don't think we can generalize, but there are these sort of perceptions on both ends. So ⁓ I think Zers should try as much as they can to think like an old person. College Is Fine Podcast: you Jennifer Gershberg: ⁓ to navigate all this. And I think we all need to have a little bit more empathy grace toward each other. College Is Fine Podcast: Hehehe I think we should actually, this is giving me an idea. I think we should create an app that translates boomers, Gen X and Gen Z and millennials, whatever, right? You put in a word or you put in a phrase and you say, how would this sound to insert the other generation? And then we could communicate, right? Because I am. you Jennifer Gershberg: It's so crazy. mean, yeah, it's so different. When I text my kids and end a sentence with a period, they ask why I'm mad at them. It's madness, you know? But this... College Is Fine Podcast: Mm-hmm, right. Yeah. And so it's probably crazy making on both sides. So I love that idea that there's gotta be some way to that other person's perspective. It's not like one is right and one is wrong, but that awareness that they might come in with a little bit of a bias, even if you don't deserve it, are there ways you might feed into that or try to shift that bias in a way that there are some things you might be able to do to show them? Right. Mm-hmm. Right. who you really are past your kind of generational label. Jennifer Gershberg: I think that's such a great idea. I would definitely use it. College Is Fine Podcast: I would too. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, like that. Add it to the list, of your side hustles. Okay. I mean, I can think of a few people I work with that feel very far behind in this whole process. And I'm grateful that we can share resource to any listeners who also feel that way, or maybe for the ones that want to get ahead of things. So Jennifer, tell us a little bit, let's close out. Where can they find you? Follow your work, maybe do a bootcamp course, tell them all the things. Jennifer Gershberg: Love it. Okay, so the best place to start is my website, which is www.jgtalks.org. And ⁓ from there, can my social media handles. I use Instagram ⁓ as my main way give advice for free. So certainly they should check out my Instagram. And there is a link my Welcome to College course on my website as well. That is really intended for incoming college students. And I break down, it's under an hour, it's short and sweet, but I really break down exactly why college is so different from high school and how even if they were successful in high school, ⁓ going to have certain struggles in college and here's how to resolve them. So I teach them. exactly how to manage their time in college, exactly how to study and handle different types of exams they will come across, how to develop and sustain good relationships with professors, which is really the key to networking anyway. ⁓ College Is Fine Podcast: I love that. It's very practical too. It sounds like it's like, here's just some basics. Yeah. Awesome. Amazing. Jennifer Gershberg: Very practical. Very direct, yes. College Is Fine Podcast: All right, we'll share that in our show notes. And thank you, Jennifer. This has been great. I hope everyone feels a little bit more prepared and now has a place to go if they have more questions. Jennifer Gershberg: Thank you so much. I College Is Fine Podcast: That's right. Yeah, tia cass everybody. Jennifer Gershberg: Yes, thanks for having me.