Latest / We Are Spiraling / For Black Women, Hair Has Always Been the Story

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For Black Women, Hair Has Always Been the Story · We Are Spiraling

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: This is Priya Anand, and we are spiraling.
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_00: In this show, we talk about curly hair to learn more about our culture, from our personal identity to how the world sees us.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: This episode has been in the works for some time, but some events over the last few weeks really highlighted why I felt so compelled to make this show in the first place.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Coco Goff, one of the absolute best tennis players in the world, posted photos on her social media with a Mew Mew handbag filled with tennis balls.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Her hair is pulled back into a bun, and she's wearing a red polo navy skirt.
• 0:32
  SPEAKER_00: The whole thing is this perfect sporty but luxe vibe with tennis balls pouring out of the bag.
• 0:37
  SPEAKER_00: And people came for her, calling her hair unkempt and worse and saying it didn't look high fashion.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: Coco had to defend her own hair in a video afterward on TikTok.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER_00: And this is what she said.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_00: The concept was using the bag every day, so I did my everyday hair and makeup.
• 0:50
  SPEAKER_00: To all the young black girls out there who have kinky hair like me, do what you want to do with your hair.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: I personally don't like to slick back my hair super sleek because it does damage my hair.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_00: I do play tennis, so most of the time when I'm wearing it in a bun, I choose to allow my hair to be and to present itself in its 4C self because I do have 4C hair.
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_00: Now I'm gonna pause here and explain what Coco means by 4C hair in case you haven't studied the hair texture classification system.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_00: For the uninitiated, hair types are categorized by numbers and letters.
• 1:20
  SPEAKER_00: 1A is completely straight, type 2 is wavy and there are subtypes.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: Type 2A is a lighter wave, 2C is where people on the internet start fighting about what constitutes curly versus wavy hair.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_00: Type 3 is considered curly, ranging from looser curls at 3A that get tighter when you go to 3B and 3C.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_00: Type 4 is coily.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: So when Coco says she is 4C, that means she has a coily, tight curl pattern, and I'm keeping things very simple here, so hopefully the curl police on social media won't come for me.
• 1:50
  SPEAKER_00: Back to what Coco said though, and I want to quote her word for word here because it is so important.
• 1:54
  SPEAKER_00: I made this video just to say to all the young black girls out there who have kinky hair like me, do what you want to do with your hair.
• 2:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to straighten your hair, permanently straighten your hair, perm your hair.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to wear your hair afro, wear your hair afro.
• 2:08
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to wear braids, wear braids.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to wear cornrows, wear cornrows.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to slick back your hair to the gods, slick it back.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_00: If you don't and you just want to pull it in a bun, put it in a bun.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Coco, we support you and I made We Are Spiraling because I believe so strongly that everyone should be able to appear how they wish, with their hair, how they wish.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_00: And know that they're beautiful.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: In the last month, we also saw Vogue call an Afro a cloud bob with a picture of Tracy Ellis Ross, and I'm sorry, what?
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_00: Somehow Vogue got away with a whole article about the cloud bob in the fall until people noticed it in another piece more recently with Tracy's image.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it looks like it's since been removed from that story, but this kind of erasure of black women is shocking, and it shows why 30 states have passed the Crown Act, which prohibits race-based hair discrimination.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Crown stands for creating a respectful and open world for natural hair.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: In this episode, you'll hear about this particular facet of what it's like to be a black woman in America from two listeners of this show.
• 3:08
  SPEAKER_00: Alyssa and Hunter each messaged me after finding we are spiraling, and they generously shared their own stories in their initial notes.
• 3:15
  SPEAKER_00: And both agreed when I asked if they'd be willing to share their experiences on the show, too.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: Vogue erasing the afro, Koko Goff having to defend her own hair.
• 3:23
  SPEAKER_00: These things should never happen.
• 3:25
  SPEAKER_00: And yet they do, and they're just two of the latest examples.
• 3:53
  SPEAKER_00: Smith, who is black, sued Alta.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: And if you think this kind of discrimination against children might be an outlier scenario, I hate to break your heart, but you need to hear the story.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_02: I live in Illinois and I am in my early 20s.
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_02: And I have been secretly curly and struggled with my hair a lot in my teenage years due to the Department of Child Services, my caseworker, not allowing my hair out.
• 4:23
  SPEAKER_02: Like I wasn't able to have it out at all.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_02: So basically, around like I had to be like eight or nine, because I was in like third grade.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_02: I was born in 2004, so it had to be like 2010, 2011 maybe.
• 4:38
  SPEAKER_02: And basically, my mom struggled with some things, so I was put into the care of my aunt for like two years, and the entirety of those two years, I genuinely was not able to have my hair out like at all.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like I asked.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_02: Like I wanted my hair out because my hair was really long, and I was very proud of my hair, and it sucked.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_02: And she was my aunt was like, basically, no, like we can't do that.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_02: They told me that we're not allowed to do that because it's too big, like it's too messy.
• 5:05
  SPEAKER_02: And they said that it seemed unmanageable, and it just it wasn't the look that they were going for, basically.
• 5:12
  SPEAKER_02: So, like, if I go through like pictures of when I was with my aunt, my hair is consistently, constantly braided compared to when my mom had me.
• 5:21
  SPEAKER_02: My hair would be braided sometimes, like out of styles.
• 5:25
  SPEAKER_02: But I was also able to wear my hair out naturally as it was rather than blow-dried or straightened or braided.
• 5:34
  SPEAKER_00: Alyssa says she's half black and half white.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_00: Her sister has looser curls and never went through any of this.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_00: But for Alyssa, the experience was stark.
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_02: It was mostly braided and like cornrows, like very small, tight braids, nothing marley, nothing like locks, no twists, nothing like that.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_02: Like it was braids, braids, braids.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_02: Which was really annoying to me.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_02: And it really annoys me now because I feel like that had a big effect on my how I felt about my hair after that because they didn't like it.
• 6:02
  SPEAKER_02: My mom loved my hair.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_02: Like, I remember I cut my hair once and she genuinely like cried.
• 6:08
  SPEAKER_02: So my mom always like wanted my hair out.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_02: Like, she wanted it to be how I wanted it to be, which is perfectly fine.
• 6:15
  SPEAKER_02: So to have like that stark difference for like two years straight, like I just wasn't allowed to wear it out, was really crazy to me.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_02: And I struggled a lot with like wanting my hair braided all the time.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_02: And I had to like I had to relearn how to do my hair too, because like I was consistently having my hair done by like the same stylist.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_02: I wasn't able to touch my hair at all outside of like washing it.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_02: So I like had to relearn what products worked for my hair and all that afterwards because I was in like fifth grade when I got back.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, it's just so crazy to me that that happened, especially because I live in Illinois, which it's like we're known as like one of the one of the states that are most known for being liberal or democratic.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_02: Like we're very for equality and people accepting people and everything about them.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_02: So it's kind of odd.
• 7:16
  SPEAKER_02: Especially this is only like 10, 12 years ago, maybe.
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_02: So it's really ha it really hasn't been that long.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_00: This was just 10-ish years ago, and Coco Golf, by the way, is only 22.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_00: We're talking about present times.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: We're not talking about the Jim Crow era, we're not talking about history, we're not talking about what people's grandparents went through.
• 7:40
  SPEAKER_00: We are talking about right now.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_00: And remember, Alyssa's sister, who had looser curls, wasn't restricted in any way.
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_00: She wasn't told how she could or could not wear her hair.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_00: Thinking about it now that I'm older, that's really kind of odd to me.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_02: Like, that's kind of messed up.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_02: But yeah, like I constantly had to have my hair braided, and she could have hers out basically whenever she wanted, unless she wanted her hair braided, because apparently the caseworker found that totally acceptable and fine.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Alyssa was just a small child, and for black women, the experience of being told they must change or conform or that there's something amiss or wrong starts really early.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's not just Lauren Smith's daughter, it's not just Coco Goff, and it's not just Alyssa.
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Hi, this is Hunter Wise, and I currently live in Maine.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: As a black female, much of growing up in the South seemingly centered around what my hair was doing, or so that's what it felt like, anyways.
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: I don't think it was intentionally done, but it was due to mindsets that had been passed down through the generations.
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: My soft, curly hair was hot combed and pressed at age five or six and relaxed at age 12 to make it more manageable, as they say.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_01: Hate is not a strong enough word for how I felt about getting relaxers.
• 8:55
  SPEAKER_00: A hot comb is a tool that combines a metal comb and an iron, like the kind you use to press clothes.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: When you run it through hair, the teeth and heat flatten or straighten it, and a hot comb can get you closer to your scalp than a flat iron can.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_00: There are also chemical relaxers, like Hunter mentioned, which can include really harmful ingredients such as formaldehyde.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: And at this point, there have been many studies and lawsuits around this issue.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: We'll post links to that research on WeArespiraling.com and in the newsletter about this episode.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: Back to Hunter.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_01: They itched while being applied and they literally burned while the chemicals took effect.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_01: It was awful.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: Every woman in my life got them religiously, so I assumed it was the only way.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_01: Because I'd been getting them for so long, I didn't even know how to style or take care of my hair in its own natural state.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: While in college, I grew dreadlocks for a lot of personal reasons, but one of the major perks was not having to sit in a salon chair for hours, voluntarily risking burning my scalp.
• 9:56
  SPEAKER_01: I did cut my dreads after about 13 years and vowed to continue nurturing my curly hair.
• 10:02
  SPEAKER_01: I was told that I would have to do something with that hair if I wanted to get a job.
• 10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Even though my hair was just minding its own naturally curly business, I refused to believe that and even saw that as a challenge.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: News flash.
• 10:20
  SPEAKER_01: But even to this day, I can sometimes still hear those whispers of looking unprofessional.
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_01: Thankfully, I've wholeheartedly embraced my curls and love that each and every curl has its own personality each and every day.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: It saddens me that there are so many secretly curly folks walking around in the world because it means that somewhere along the lines, they were taught that not only accepting, but loving their curly hair wasn't an option.
• 10:48
  SPEAKER_00: So many people are secretly curly for the same reasons Hunter outlined.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: They were told it was never an option to consider anything else.
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_00: Episode two of the show investigates how many people, not just women, have experienced this.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_00: And we did the reporting interviewing academics who have studied this issue around the perception of curly hair in the workplace.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, the origin of the myth that curly hair is not professional is rooted in racism.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_00: Name a profession, and I've heard stories from listeners who have been told to change their hair for work.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: One commenter told me their manager at Kohl's said not to come into work with natural hair.
• 11:24
  SPEAKER_00: Friends who are journalists and appear on TV have been told to straighten their hair to have the right look.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: This issue is everywhere.
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_00: Consider how few national politicians seem to have curly hair.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's not that nobody in political office has curly hair.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_00: Curly hair isn't uncommon.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_00: In fact, about two-thirds of people have textured hair.
• 11:41
  SPEAKER_00: Once again, we don't police hair here, so how you define textured in the spectrum of wavy to curly is not my debate.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_00: Michelle Obama published a book in the fall called The Look.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_00: It's about how she and her team had to very carefully manage her appearance during the Obama presidency because it was constantly dissected and her hair is part of that.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: She once said, let me keep my hair straight.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Let's get healthcare passed.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, even Hollywood actors deal with this issue.
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_00: You might think that they have all the staff on set, but Halle Berry has said publicly that the reason she had her signature pixie cut was because it saved her from having to suffer through bad experiences with stylists on set.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: People are conditioned to wash and then blow out their hair and many salons and haircuts that way.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: That's why New York State just had to pass the law we talked about in our last episode requiring beauty schools to train stylists on how to work with textured hair.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes, that law is taking effect only in 2026, which is kind of incredible.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: And this also shows why the Crown Act, which first passed in California in 2019, exists, and why so many other states have passed similar laws to prevent race-based hair discrimination.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: It's somewhat ironic that Madame C.J.
• 12:51
  SPEAKER_00: Walker, the first self-made black millionaire in America, popularized the hot comb, a tool for straightening.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_00: Chris Rock made a whole documentary about black women, their hair, and how they perceive it.
• 13:00
  SPEAKER_00: It's called Good Hair.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: He said that the movie and its title were inspired by his very young daughter asking him, Daddy, how come I don't have good hair?
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: By the way, who doesn't remember Beyonce's line in sorry?
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: Better call Becky with the good hair.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's that recurring phrase, good hair.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: I do think you should look up the trailer for good hair on YouTube because Chris Rock covers us with an air of absurdity that only he can.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: And yes, I'm sure you're probably thinking, wow, the slap came after a joke about Jada's hair, but we're not going to get into that one.
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: India Airy, who was nominated for a number of Grammys in the early 2000s, put out a song called I Am Not My Hair with Akon in 2006.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_00: I was looking back at the lyrics and they actually encapsulate much of the story.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not a singer, so I'm just going to read them to you.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Little girl with a press and curl, age eight, I got a jerry curl.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_00: 13 and I got a relaxer.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: I was a source of so much laughter.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_00: At 15, when it all broke off, 18 and went all natural.
• 14:01
  SPEAKER_00: February 2002, I went on and did what I had to do.
• 14:05
  SPEAKER_00: Because it was time to change my life, to become the woman that I am inside.
• 14:09
  SPEAKER_00: 97 dreadlocks all gone.
• 14:12
  SPEAKER_00: I looked in the mirror for the first time and saw that, hey, I am not my hair.
• 14:16
  SPEAKER_00: I am not the skin.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_00: I am not your expectations.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_00: Solange Knowles has also acknowledged her hair and her music and how it's an extension of her inner self and soul.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: In Don't Touch My Hair, released in 2016, she says, Don't touch my hair when it's the feelings I wear.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: Don't touch my soul when it's the rhythm I know.
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_00: Black artists have made statements and shaped style and culture with their hair, even when they haven't directly referenced it in their music.
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_01: My hair icons, Lauren Hill on the cover of the Fuji's The Score album.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: My God, the inset of that CD cover when CDs were a thing, her hair was definitely for me iconic.
• 14:56
  SPEAKER_01: I remember trying to get my hair cut just like hers.
• 14:59
  SPEAKER_01: I thought it was so beautiful and so dope and just, I just loved it.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: I think more recently, I would have to definitely say I would be remiss not to mention Tracy Ellis Ross.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, she has done so much for the, especially the black natural curly hair movement.
• 15:19
  SPEAKER_01: And her hair is always just popping and adorable in all the different ways that she styles it.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: I think everyone of a certain age can recall the cover of The Misseducation of Lauren Hill in their mind.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: It's so iconic she's wearing her hair in locks.
• 15:33
  SPEAKER_00: You see the role of hair in the art that black women create and how they turn their hair itself into works of art sometimes.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_00: Here's Alyssa on why Lupita Niango is one of the people who's become a hair icon for her.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_02: I personally believe Lupita Niango is a great person to look up to when it comes to hair.
• 15:50
  SPEAKER_02: I've always loved her looks that she gets when she's on like the red carpet or any of her um movie premieres and stuff.
• 15:59
  SPEAKER_02: It's always something unique.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_02: She has a lot of natural styles.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_02: I remember one that was like afro hair shaping kind of.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: I looked up Lupito Niango's hairstyles while listening to this note from Alyssa, and I immediately knew which one she was talking about.
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's incredible.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's from her 2021 Met Gala look, and we'll put it in our newsletter so you can see it too.
• 16:19
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost sculptural.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: The inspiration was reportedly to mimic tool with loop pieces, and it was inspired by the artist Lorna Simpson's work, which has explored black women's hair as a source of power.
• 16:29
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know this until Alyssa shared that story with me, and I had actually reached out to Lorna in hopes of interviewing her about her work for this episode.
• 16:36
  SPEAKER_00: So, Lorna, if you hear this, I'm a fan and I would love to have you on the show.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you to Alyssa and Hunter for sharing their stories for this episode.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: And thank you for listening to We Are Spiraling.
• 16:50
  SPEAKER_00: This is episode 11, and we have one more left this season, but don't worry, we won't stop publishing between seasons.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: We have a bunch of bonus drops planned, so you'll hear from us in your feed even more regularly.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I do want to genuinely thank you.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: I started making this show out of pure conviction that if I'm obsessed with these stories, other people would be interested in hearing them, and that I can't be the only one who wants to talk about who we are, how people see us, and how we see ourselves.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's the same curiosity that guided me throughout my dozen years as a reporter covering the tech industry, and I'm so glad I quit my job reporting on tech to investigate curly hair with all of you.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a studio, I record in my apartment and design and report every story and reach out to every guest myself.
• 17:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's just me and Will who makes this show sound amazing for all of you, even when I mess something up with my recordings.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_00: This show has grown to thousands of listeners, and we're just getting started.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_00: If there's a question, topic, or theory you'd like me to investigate in a future episode, email me at Priya at WeARSpiraling.com.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER_00: I can't tell you how much I love making this show, and when you share it on social media, let me know you love it too.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: It means more than you know.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_00: The best is yet to come.
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_00: We Are Spiraling is produced by Citizens of Sound and hosted by Myura, my upcoming hair care line.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_00: You can find the wait list in our show notes and on the website.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_00: Theme music by Lop Gunn.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: This song is called My Haveli is your Haveli, but you should check out all of his bangers.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_00: Talk to you soon.