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Paul Denyer - The Frankston Murders · Wicked and Grim: A True Crime Podcast

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: In the winter of nineteen ninety three, the quiet Melbourne
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: suburb of Frankston became the focus of one of Australia's
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: most chilling serial murder cases. Over the span of just
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: seven weeks, three young women were brutally killed, each attack
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: seemingly random but carried out with escalating violence. The man
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: responsible twenty one year old Paul Denier, who would later
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: confess not only to the murders but to a deep
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: rooted hatred for women that had been building four years.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: This is the story of the Frankston murders.
• 0:50
  Speaker 2: My name's Ben, I'm Nicole, and you're listening to Wicked
• 0:53
  Speaker 2: and Grim.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: A true crime podcast. The following podcast I have material
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: more audience listeners.
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: Haven't had that sound for a while.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Havelf We we haven't. And honestly, don't judge me for
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: this one. This is a breakfast beer, so it's like
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: eleven still, it's technically a breakfast beer five o'clock somewhere exactly.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you gotta do what you gotta do, yep. And
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: that might be have a beer in the morning, and
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: that might be have a coffee with dinner. Hey, just
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: don't judge, right, you do you exactly. This is an
• 1:51
  Speaker 1: interesting case and it actually comes from our patron. So
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: I just want to give you a little quick shout
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: out to everyone over on Patreon because we did a
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: live recently and I think we mentioned that last episode.
• 2:00
  Speaker 2: And was this put on the live? It was okay,
• 2:03
  Speaker 2: right on.
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: So we were chatting with them and there's a couple
• 2:06
  Speaker 1: of suggestions thrown around and this was one of the
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: ones that was suggested.
• 2:08
  Speaker 2: Okay, I know if you recommendations came on that live,
• 2:12
  Speaker 2: but yeah, there you.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Go, Well this is one of those recommendations and now
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: you know, yeah, and now you're about to learn all
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: about it.
• 2:20
  Speaker 2: Sorry, if my voice sounds a bit off, I think
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: it's a slightly off, but not much.
• 2:23
  Speaker 1: You sound a little bit nasally today.
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: Nasally I have a yeah woo woo, woot woot before
• 2:29
  Speaker 2: we're about to go to town.
• 2:31
  Speaker 1: Right, and my throat hurts a little bit too, So yeah,
• 2:33
  Speaker 1: I have just passed it.
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: On to me. Thanks, Sorry, but you know what is
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: to come?
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: Are you really sorry? Though?
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Slightly? But also last year you gave me COVID So.
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: Was that last year or the year before?
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: What that was last year? Was it not even like that?
• 2:51
  Speaker 2: Long ago.
• 2:52
  Speaker 1: What are you What are you talking about then at.
• 2:55
  Speaker 2: The when we were in Georgia.
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: Oh well, I mean, we don't know for sure that
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: was COVID. We're just assuming pretty sure.
• 3:02
  Speaker 2: So anyway, I got a pass for life because that
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: was a terrible illness to pass on. This ain't that bad.
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: I don't know if that was COVID. That was a
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: bad case of COVID. I think it was just a
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: really bad fluke. Because there's vomiting and stuff about, we
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: don't need to talk about this. Oh my gosh, we
• 3:16
  Speaker 1: were sick.
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, people get sick. Yeah, it happens.
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: It do happen like that sometimes. But are you ready
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: for this case?
• 3:24
  Speaker 2: I am.
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, let's stop talking about our our well being and stuff.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Let's just get into the story. Okay. So in the
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: early nineteen nineties, the bayside suburb of Frankston, about forty
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: minutes outside of Melbourne, Australia, was just like any other
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: quiet Australian community. Had the beach, you know, the bush
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: and the kind of low key suburb charm that made
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: it an easy place to live, especially for families and
• 3:50
  Speaker 1: young people starting out. But in nineteen ninety three, all
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: of that changed. For seven terrifying weeks in winter, something
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: or rather some one, turned Frankston into a hunting ground.
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: Three women were murdered in broad daylight or early evening,
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: all young, all targeted seemingly at random. Another woman was
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: attacked but managed to escape. By the end of July,
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: the entire city was on edge. Women stopped walking alone,
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: parents started picking up their kids from school. People double
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: checked locked doors and looked over their shoulders wherever they went.
• 4:26
  Speaker 1: The killer didn't leave taunting letters or called police. They
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: didn't have to the brutality of the crimes they spoken
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: of for themselves. Eventually police would find him. He wasn't
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: a shadowy figure hiding in the hills or some criminal mastermind. Instead,
• 4:44
  Speaker 1: he was a twenty one year old guy named Paul Denyer,
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: someone who lived in the area, worked odd jobs, and
• 4:50
  Speaker 1: blended in like any other face in the crowd. But
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: what Paul was hiding beneath that average exterior was a
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: violent hatred of women and a chilling desire to kill now.
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: Paul was born in April fourteenth of nineteen seventy two,
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: the third of six kids in a working class family
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: that immigrated to Australia from the UK in the nineteen sixties.
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: His parents, Anthony and Marine, had just settled into New
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: South Wales at first, but by the early eighties, a
• 5:21
  Speaker 1: new job opportunity moved them into Victoria, specifically an outer
• 5:25
  Speaker 1: suburb of Melbourne, and that's where things started to unravel.
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: By all accounts, Paul didn't adjust well to the move.
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: He struggled to make friends and never really found his
• 5:35
  Speaker 1: footing in school. His confidence plummeted, his school performance tanked,
• 5:40
  Speaker 1: and he began gaining weight rapidly, all of which isolated
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: him further and further. But where most kids might act
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: out in a bit of rebellious, you know, teenage type behavior,
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: Paul veered into much darker territory, going right beyond that
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: into something else completely. When he was just ten, he
• 6:02
  Speaker 1: cut the throat of his sister's stuffed bare Oh and
• 6:05
  Speaker 1: not long after that, he even killed the family cat
• 6:08
  Speaker 1: in the very same way, and then he strung its
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: body up in a tree for.
• 6:14
  Speaker 2: The family to probably see and find. Yeah, oh my gosh,
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: could you imagine if your child did something like that, right.
• 6:20
  Speaker 1: And you're talking a ten year old, Oh.
• 6:22
  Speaker 2: Man, I feel like I would just like run for
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: the freaking hills. No kidding, my kid, Like that's terrified.
• 6:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, these aren't things you can just chalk up to, like, hey,
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: it's just a phase or boys will be boys. Some
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: people use that as an excuse this stuff.
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: He maybe because it could have just been like being
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: rude to their sibling.
• 6:39
  Speaker 1: Fair enough, and you know what, Like, honestly, kids at age,
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  Speaker 1: you know, they act out a lot of like different
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: things on pillows or stuffed animals. I remember me when
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I was a kid, I watched like wrestling. I would
• 6:50
  Speaker 1: have like full on wrestling matches with my stuff animals,
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: you know what I mean. So it's like doing some
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: stuff with your stuffed animals and like, hey, you know,
• 6:57
  Speaker 1: tearing its head off because he saw a Rambo movie
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: and like that sort of thing. It's understandable. But when
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: it crosses the line, it's not a stuffed animal anymore.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: And you literally cut the throat of your family cat
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: and string it up in a tree, that's fucked.
• 7:12
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, because it's not even like a neighbor's cat.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: It's your like your family cat. That is real mess.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Oh, actually that's a good point because theoretically he
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: should have some attachment to this animal.
• 7:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like he should love the animal, it's a part
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: of his daily life.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so these kind of moments were I mean, I
• 7:30
  Speaker 1: have in my script in hindsight alarm bells, but honestly,
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: they should have just been alarmed. It's not hindsight. Those
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: are alarms that you ignored. It's not a hindsight.
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah that if your kid is killing your cat and
• 7:46
  Speaker 2: hanging it in a tree, you gotta maybe look at
• 7:50
  Speaker 2: some help or something.
• 7:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but not much was being done.
• 7:53
  Speaker 2: Oh shit.
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  Speaker 1: Now, by thirteen, Paul had actually already been arrested, once
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  Speaker 1: for stealing a car and later for assaulting a classmate
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: in a rather disturbing way. So the incident is h well,
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  Speaker 1: Paul was around fifteen at this time. He was attending
• 8:11
  Speaker 1: high school and he assaulted a classmate. It's not just
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: physically aggressive, let's put it that way. It was deliberate
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: and it was dehumanizing. Now, according to reports and court records,
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: they referenced what he did, Paul forced another student to
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: publicly masturbate. Yeah, a little bit humiliad.
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: How do you even do that?
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  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, maybe it's a knife point again, maybe
• 8:40
  Speaker 1: you're going to beat him up. Who knows what he
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  Speaker 1: did to threaten this individual, but they he forced them
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  Speaker 1: to public master. Yeah, so it's not just assault, it's
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: forced public humiliation and it stood out later to psych
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  Speaker 1: psychologists and investigators as an early indicator of sadistic tendencies. Okay, yeah,
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: this was impulsive. Sorry, it wasn't impulsive violence. It was domination, humiliation,
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: and a desire to degrade another person in a sexually
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: charged and controlling way. Now, for context, this was the
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: mid late nineteen eighties, so despite how serious this act was,
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  Speaker 1: it didn't seem to lead to any meaningful intervention by
• 9:20
  Speaker 1: any means. He was arrested for this, yes, but there
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: was little in the way of long term mental health
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: evaluation or reform. So he was formally charged and arrested.
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  Speaker 1: But due to his age at around fifteen, he was
• 9:32
  Speaker 1: treated at a juvenile level, right, so in a juvenile matter.
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  Speaker 1: So the specific consequences haven't been made publicly made public
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: because you know, hey, they deal with that sort of
• 9:43
  Speaker 1: stuff behind closed doors and it's not public thing because hey,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: juvenile and that's basically that.
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: So they're just like chalking all this stuff up to
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: that he's a kid. Figuring out his way, like he's
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: going to get better, like all this is going to
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: get better essentially. Yeah.
• 10:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And because of all that, there's no record of
• 10:05
  Speaker 1: long term detention, rehabilitation programs, different like psychological treatments that
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: maybe they could be doing. There's none of that. It
• 10:13
  Speaker 1: was basically like, oh, you did a stupid thing, kid, Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: just go home. You learned your lesson?
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I learn from this.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, That's basically all it really was. They arrested him
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: for a short time. He was in probably some sort
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: of detention center for a bit, and then just went
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: right back to.
• 10:27
  Speaker 2: Living at home, which isn't great because the poor kid
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: that he did that too, that's going to affect his life.
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: Oh most likely for sure brutal. So yeah, meanwhile he's
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: just allowed to just Paul's just going home and is hey,
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: violent behavior, It's only going to escalate from there. And
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: that's exactly what happened. So after that, things at home
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: got worse. His parents' marriage that fell apart, and Paul
• 10:50
  Speaker 1: seemed to drift even further off the rails. He dropped
• 10:53
  Speaker 1: out of school, bounced between jobs that he couldn't keep,
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: and failed to get into the police force, something that
• 10:58
  Speaker 1: he claimed he was passionate about, though no one really
• 11:01
  Speaker 1: understands why because it doesn't reflect who he is. Then
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: there were knives. While working at a boat building company
• 11:09
  Speaker 1: in Seaford in the early nineteen ninety three, Paul started
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: crafting makeshift knives and weapons during his shifts. And he
• 11:17
  Speaker 1: didn't just do this and hide it. He was open
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: about it, and he even showed coworkers and stuff. One
• 11:23
  Speaker 1: of his bosses even pulled him aside to say it
• 11:25
  Speaker 1: was making people uncomfortable and he needed to stop.
• 11:29
  Speaker 2: Okay, but he wasn't supposed to be doing this. No,
• 11:32
  Speaker 2: unlike company time and share right.
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: No, it's like you're supposed to be doing your job.
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: You're making a fucking knife, like, stop it, and it's
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: weirding people out, I guess.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: But yeah, it's also like get to work.
• 11:43
  Speaker 1: Exactly a few months later, he was reportedly fired for
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: underperforming at that job. Not surprising because he's not doing
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: his job like you say, yeah, yeah, dinking around. So
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: it was around the same time that the strange, disturbing
• 11:56
  Speaker 1: incidents in Frankston and Seaford began. Things that back then
• 12:01
  Speaker 1: seemed like random acts of cruelty and violence, but would
• 12:04
  Speaker 1: later be recognized as Paul's first serious step towards murder.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: One of the earliest signs was in February of nineteen
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: ninety three, when he broke into a woman's house someone
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: he didn't know, and completely vandalized the place. Now, when
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: I say he didn't know them, clearly he does know
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: who they are, but doesn't know them personally. You know
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: what I mean? Now, this person was someone by the
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: name of Donna. Donna was a young mother living in
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: a unit on Claude Street in Seaford, a bayside suburb
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: of Melbourne. She had recently given birth and was home
• 12:36
  Speaker 1: alone much of the time while her partner worked delivering pizzas.
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: Around the time of the incident, Donna had received threatening,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: anonymous phone calls. They unnerved her to the point that
• 12:47
  Speaker 1: she asked her partner if she could actually tag along
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: during his delivery shifts, bringing their newborn baby with them,
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: to feel safe. It turned out that decision would save
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: her life.
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: Oh seriously, I just love when people like listen to
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: their guts because it's hard to it is.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: So, while Donna and her partner headed off to go
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: deliver some pizzas, for his job. They were gone for
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: less than an hour, and in that time Paul broke
• 13:17
  Speaker 1: into their home. The level of destruction and psychological cruelty
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: he inflicted to their empty home is hard to overstate.
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: So to start with, though he killed their pet cat.
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: He slashed the pet's throat and dissected its body, and
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: the cat's body was then posed on the kitchen floor
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and written in the animal's blood above the stove were
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: the words quote, Donna, You're dead. He also murdered two kittens,
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: again cutting their throat and placing them in the bathtub.
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, this guy is a piece of shit.
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: There were also pornographic images that were slashed and pasted
• 14:00
  Speaker 1: on mirrors and the wardrobe, and most disturbingly, inside the
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: crib where they baby actually slept.
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Shaving cream was sprayed all over the bathroom mirror, furniture
• 14:10
  Speaker 1: was slashed and cut open. Rooms were trashed. I cannot
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: describe what he did in there enough now. When Donna
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: and her partner returned and saw the blood on the floor,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: they immediately called police and what they found was, Yeah,
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: this deliberate, hateful scene of psychological warfare.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Basically, you almost would have wondered, you know, she might
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: not have been safe, but I also think, like her baby,
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: he might have killed the baby too, very much.
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: So possible. Yeah, now terrified, Donna understandably refused to return
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: to that unit. She and her family moved out that
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: very same night and moved in ironically with her sister
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: who lived right next door to Paul.
• 14:52
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, cool. And they had no idea who it was.
• 14:56
  Speaker 1: They had no idea it was. They had no idea
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: who was responsible. And it wasn't until months later, after
• 15:01
  Speaker 1: Paul was actually arrested for many other things that we'll
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: be getting into that it actually came to light. And
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: at that time, you know, after the fact, when he
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: was arrested, he was asked, well, I guess no, he asked.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: He just admitted on his own about what would happen
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: if Donna was home that night. Huh. And he, quote verbatim,
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: said I would have killed her. So yes, going out
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: on that pizza delivery with her her hobby saved her life.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: Dang.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: So it was clear now that Paul was testing his
• 15:36
  Speaker 1: limits at this time. He didn't just want to scare someone.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: He wanted to control, hurt and terrorize them. It was honestly,
• 15:44
  Speaker 1: almost a dry run for what he would soon do next.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: It was the kind of night you stay indoors, cold,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: wet and blistery, even by Melbourne's winter standards, but eighteen
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: year old Elizabeth Stevens had plans. On the evening of
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: June eleventh, nineteen ninety three, she left a note for
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: her aunt and uncle, the relatives she was living with
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: in Langwarren. She said she was headed to the taff
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: Tafe Cafe library and would be home by eight p m.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth had only been in Melbourne for a few months,
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: having moved from Tasmania to study. She wanted to join
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: the armed forces and saw education as her ticket in now.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: She was smart, driven and independent, the kind of person
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: who didn't mind walking home alone. Langworin was familiar and
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: it felt safe to her. She caught the bus as
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: usual and got off near Patterson Avenue. From there it
• 16:39
  Speaker 1: was a short walk home, five minutes maybe less. However,
• 16:43
  Speaker 1: the distance didn't matter because she would never make it home.
• 16:49
  Speaker 1: As Elizabeth turned onto her street, Paul spotted her. He
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: hadn't been following her, at least not intentionally, but he
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: did see this opportunity and for Paul. That was all
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: he needed. It was enough. He approached her from behind,
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: pulled out a makeshift fake pistol he'd crafted from scrap materials,
• 17:07
  Speaker 1: and told her not to scream. Then he took her
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: by the hand, and quite literally took her by the
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: hand and walked her down the street as if there
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: were just two people headed home together. At least one
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: other passerby saw them, and because of the fear overwhelming Elizabeth,
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: that person didn't think twice. They just seemed like two
• 17:26
  Speaker 1: regular people holding hands. Paul continued and led Elizabeth to
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: Lloyd Park. Lloyd Park Reserve, a stretch of open land
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: and trees not far from where she lived with her
• 17:39
  Speaker 1: aunt and her uncle. The area itself wasn't isolated, but
• 17:45
  Speaker 1: on a cold, windy, rainsoaked night like this, it may
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: have well been in the middle of nowhere, because no
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: one was around and no one would hear her scream
• 17:55
  Speaker 1: if she had. Once they reached a more secluded area,
• 17:59
  Speaker 1: away from the path and hidden by trees, Paul stopped walking,
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: and it was here he began to talk to her,
• 18:05
  Speaker 1: not like someone who was about to kill her, but
• 18:08
  Speaker 1: almost like he was trying to play some twisted fantasy.
• 18:11
  Speaker 1: He told her she didn't have to be scared. Then,
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: out of nowhere, he asked if she wanted to have sex.
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: It was a genuine It wasn't a genuine question. It
• 18:19
  Speaker 1: was a power move, a moment designed to confuse her,
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: to disarm her, maybe to make her think this was
• 18:26
  Speaker 1: about something else entirely, according to his later confession, he
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: claimed he had only made this question about sex to
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: test her reaction, as if this entire counter was encounter
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: with some sort of game he was playing, and when
• 18:42
  Speaker 1: she didn't respond or give him the answer he wanted,
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: he followed up with a bizarre reassurance. He told her
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: he wasn't a sexual threat and she didn't have anything
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: to worry about. But of course the truth was she
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: most certainly did. Elizabeth never ran, She didn't scream. She
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: allegedly screamed once, but that was about it, and some
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: believe she may have sensed that it would only escalate
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: things if she did again. Others think she froze, still
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: trying to figure out if this was robbery, a mugging,
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: or something worse, But Paul later admitted that she stayed
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: relatively calm, which only made what happen next even more
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: disturbing because Paul then attacked. He choked her until she
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: passed out, and then he drug her deeper into the park,
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: and when he was sure she couldn't fight back, he
• 19:31
  Speaker 1: pulled out a knife. You know those makeshift ones that
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: he fashioned himself. Yeah, possibly at the boathouse or whatever, right,
• 19:39
  Speaker 1: but he used that knife and he stabbed her multiple
• 19:42
  Speaker 1: times in the throat, causing her to bleed out. The
• 19:46
  Speaker 1: autopsy later confirmed that the actual cause of death was
• 19:49
  Speaker 1: aspiration of blood and hemorrhaging from stab wounds to the
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: neck combined with the effects of the strangulation. So essentially,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: she died from choking on her.
• 19:58
  Speaker 2: Own blood, and she was just in the wrong place
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: at the wrong time, really exactly.
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: However, though the attack didn't stop here after she was
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: already dead, Paul inflicted additional wounds to Elizabeth's body, and
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: these included stab wounds and deep slashes across her torso
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: and her chests. A criss cross pattern kind of carved
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: into her skin, akin to like potentially a sort of
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: signature that baffled investigators at the time. Her face was
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: also stomped on, breaking several facial bones, which showed the
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: intent not just to kill, but to brutalize her remains. Still,
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: there was no evidence of sexual assault, either during, before
• 20:39
  Speaker 1: or after the attack, which highlights anger towards.
• 20:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, what the actual shit? So he was just like playing.
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: With her after, yes, basically.
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: Exploring basically like what he could do with this knife,
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: and like, I don't.
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: Know, I think he was. I think you're right. He
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: was kind of like playing with her in a certain sense.
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: But I think it was not a happy like, oh,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: I'm enjoying playing with this. I think it was a
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: strict power thing. He hated women, which we'll get into.
• 21:13
  Speaker 1: He hated women, and he was using that as a
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: means of like, I'm gonna stomp on your face. I'm
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: gonna do whatever the fuck I want with you, and
• 21:20
  Speaker 1: I carve you up sort of thing.
• 21:22
  Speaker 2: You know, she's already dead and he's stomping on her face. Yes, Oh,
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: this is so disturbing.
• 21:29
  Speaker 1: Now. Once he was done, he drugged her body into
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: a culvert nearby, where he dumped tree branches on top
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: of her and left her. Her body was found the
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: next day by a man who is collecting pine branches
• 21:40
  Speaker 1: in the park. She was located just two hundred and
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: fifty meters from her home.
• 21:45
  Speaker 2: I bet he didn't expect to find that.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: No, the community was shocked, but still thought it might
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: be an isolated case, a one off, a tragedy, yes,
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: but not a pattern, at least not right now. But
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: that illusion wouldn't last long. Just under a month after
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth's murder, things in Frankston took yet another dark turn,
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: and this time the pace picked up fast. Pace pickened,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: picked picked up, fast, picked up, picked up, it picked
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: up fast. It was Thursday, July eighth, nineteen ninety three,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: still midwinter, and yes, if you're curious, because Australia, their
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: winter is our summer, and vice versa. Just before six pm,
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: Rosa Toth, a forty one year old woman, got off
• 22:30
  Speaker 1: the train and see at the Seaford station and started
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: walking home along her usual route. Was then she noticed
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: a man lingering near the public toilets along the path,
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: but she didn't really think of it much of it
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: until moments later, when she felt herself being grabbed from
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: behind the man. Of course, Paul held what looked like
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: a gun to her head and told her not to scream. Rosa, however,
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: wasn't going down without a fight, She realized the gun
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: was fake and managed to break free bold towards a road,
• 23:01
  Speaker 1: and a passing by vehicle stopped and the driver helped
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: her get away safely and get home.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, okay good.
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: She was shaken a little bit bruised from the physical encounter,
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: but she was more than alive and happy to be so.
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: And if Rosa hadn't fought like hell, she'd likely be
• 23:18
  Speaker 1: a footnote in Paul's growing list of victims.
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it would have been like she would have died
• 23:22
  Speaker 2: for sure.
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Yeap. That same night, just a few kilometers away, Deborah
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: Freme vanished. Now. Deborah was twenty two. She was a
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: new mom and had just left her twelve day old
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: baby at home with a friend so she could quickly
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: grab some milk for dinner. She got in the car
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: and drove to the local store. You know, you get
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: some milk and get what she needed. However, she just
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: never came back.
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: No.
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: Now, her partner and friend were immediately worried. She only
• 23:52
  Speaker 1: planned to be gone like ten minutes is what it
• 23:54
  Speaker 1: would take her, and she wasn't the kind of person
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: to disappear without a word. They called police, They called
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: the hospital, there was nothing, No one knew anything. Deborah
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: was officially reported missing within hours. Four days later, a
• 24:08
  Speaker 1: farmer in Karum Downs made a grim discovery. Debora's body
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: had been dumped near a wire fence along Taylor's Road.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: Like Elizabeth, She'd been strangled and had her throat cut.
• 24:20
  Speaker 1: There's no signs of sexual assault, just a frenzied, rage
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: fueled attack, brutal.
• 24:27
  Speaker 2: You know, that could have even been the first time
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: she had left her baby, could just to get out
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: quick or whatever.
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: Yep.
• 24:33
  Speaker 2: Oh, no, this guy is such a piece of shit.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: You're gonna get through this, I am.
• 24:43
  Speaker 2: But that's like thatun's so sad that it's like a
• 24:45
  Speaker 2: twelve day old baby.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: Well honestly, and it's so unfortunate that that kid's only
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: going to know it's mom from you know, photos or
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: stories what other people tell them.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: Forensic investigators also found her car abandoned in a nearby street,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: with a fresh dint in the front. The driver's seat
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: was pushed all the way back, and traces of Dever's
• 25:06
  Speaker 1: blood were found in the front seat and interior. Paul
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: later admitted that he hid in the back seat while
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: she was at the store. So she ran inside real
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: quick to grab the milk. He took advantage of an
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: unlocked car and climbed in the back seat. When she
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: returned and started driving, he threatened her with that same
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: fake gun and forced her to drive past her house
• 25:26
  Speaker 1: straight out to where he would eventually kill her. By
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: now two women were dead, a third had narrowly escaped,
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: and for police, the pieces were starting to come together
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that he still didn't have a name, but someone was
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: attacking in a string of incidents.
• 25:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they have to take this more seriously now.
• 25:46
  Speaker 1: By late July, the Frankston area was on edge. People
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: were locking the doors, looking over their shoulders, and for
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: the first time, women in the community were being told
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: not to walk alone. It wasn't official yet, but the
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: whispers had started that there was a serial killer on
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: the loose. And then it happened again. Natalie Russell was seventeen.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: She was bright, kind and very well liked. She went
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: to John Paul College, not far from where Elizabeth and
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: Deborah had lived. On Friday, July thirtieth, she had her
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: usual school day, said goodbye to her friends, and left
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: early to head home. Now normally she rode her bike,
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: but had been raining that morning, so her mum dropped
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: her off that morning instead. She was going to take
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: the bus or as so the plan was. But for
• 26:34
  Speaker 1: whatever reason, reasons that are unclear, she didn't take the
• 26:38
  Speaker 1: bus and she walked home her usual route. Instead. She
• 26:42
  Speaker 1: took her regular shortcut, a footpath that squeezed between two
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: golf courses, shielded by a long chain link fence. That
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: path now is renamed NAT's Track. It was familiar to her.
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: She walked it all the time. Paul had been there
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: early that day. He pre cut holes on the fence
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: at three different points, and he parked nearby and waited,
• 27:04
  Speaker 1: crouched in his yellow Toyota Corona, slouched down low, binoculars
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: in hand, just waiting for the right person to pass.
• 27:13
  Speaker 1: When Natalie did pass, he followed quietly at first, then
• 27:17
  Speaker 1: he moved in. He approached him behind and grabbed her
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: through one of the cut holes in the fence. He
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: wrapped his left arm around her neck and pulled her
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: backwards through this hole. But Natalie wasn't just like his
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: previous victims. She fought back, and she gave it her all.
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: She fought hard, She kicked, she scratched, she screamed. She struggled,
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: and the scene that was left behind that investigators would
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: eventually find it showed a large area of grass flattened
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: out where the struggle would have occurred. Her struggle left
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: behind a trail of blood, skin, hair, some of which
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: was hers, some of which wasn't. It was that evidence
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: that would later tie Paul to this mark.
• 28:00
  Speaker 2: Okay, so she was She at least was given the
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: police something they could use.
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: Once he had her pinned in that bushed area, Paul
• 28:11
  Speaker 1: used a leather strap to try and strangle her. That strap, though,
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: snapped under the force that he used to try and
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: choke her. He was using such force that the leather
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: strap snapped, so he used his hands instead and then
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: the knife. Natalie was strangled and stabbed multiple times in
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: the throat and upper chest in what forensic experts later
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: described as a frenzied attack. Her injuries were brutal. Paul
• 28:38
  Speaker 1: left her body there where she died in the undergrowth
• 28:42
  Speaker 1: and walked away casually. Now, what he didn't know was
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: that he was spotted as he was waiting for his victim.
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: There was a postal worker who saw him sitting in
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: his car crouched and looking a little bit suspicious. This
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: postal worker reported what they saw to the police, and
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: as Paul walked away, heading back to his car, he
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: passed the very same police officers who'd responded to that
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: post to workers call. His hands were still bloodied. As
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: he saw them approaching, he shoved them into his pockets
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: and walked right past. Natalie's parents grew worried when she
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: didn't get off the bus and get home as usual. Yep,
• 29:26
  Speaker 1: but still they were waiting, thinking that she'd walk through
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: that front door of the home at any minute. However,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: she never did. Eventually, she was reported missing that evening,
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: and when she didn't come home, everyone was worried and
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: police were sent out, and by eleven pm police would
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: find her body, just meters off the track that she
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: routinely walked.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: You would just be hoping that, oh, man, like you
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: would know that this friggin psychotic person is out there,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: and you would just be hoping, like, oh my goodness,
• 29:58
  Speaker 2: that she is got caugh or to a friend's house
• 30:02
  Speaker 2: or something.
• 30:03
  Speaker 1: Or maybe after school work with a teacher, or who
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: knows what. All the reasons would be flooding in your head. Yeah,
• 30:10
  Speaker 1: but there's that one thing that would just be eating
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: at you. No red yeah, knowing that there's a string
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: of violent crimes that are occurring now. This time, though,
• 30:20
  Speaker 1: after this attack, things would come crashing down because Paul
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: had made a mistake during the attack. There was a
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: small piece of skin, not Natalie's, that was found inside
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: one of her neck wounds. And of course this was
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: due to Natalie fighting back as much as she did.
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: Paul picked the wrong victim. He may have got her,
• 30:42
  Speaker 1: but trust me when I say Natalie got him back. Okay.
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: Good.
• 30:48
  Speaker 1: DNA testing would later confirm that it came from the killer.
• 30:51
  Speaker 1: Police now had their physical evidence, and just hours before
• 30:54
  Speaker 1: Natalie was murdered, as I mentioned, there was a postal
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: worker who spotted something strange, this yellow car, this man inside.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: There was no plates on the vehicle or anything, but
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: there were some identifying factors and they were able to
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: identify the car and eventually get the registration, and that
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: registration came back to Paul Dnyer.
• 31:15
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, shit's going down. Good.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: When police arrived at his place the next day, he
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: answered the door. He was calm. He even invited the
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: police in and he chatted like there was no big deal.
• 31:29
  Speaker 1: He had scratches on his hands and a few cuts,
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: and when they asked where he'd been, he had answers.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: In fact, he had too many answers. Actually, he could
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: recall every single hour of every single day for like
• 31:41
  Speaker 1: the last month, with perfect clarity. Where were you on
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: this day, Where were you on this day when each
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: victim was killed, and he knew exactly where he was,
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: where he was, what time. It was weird, it was
• 31:52
  Speaker 1: almost rehearsed.
• 31:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah, like that is not normal.
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah. They did bring him in back to the station
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: and they started a formal interview. For the first few hours,
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: Paul stuck to his story. He had car trouble, that's
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: why you saw him park there. Oh, he was bad luck,
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: he's wrong placed at the wrong time, and all these
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: sort of things. He had reasons and answers for everything.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: But what he didn't know was that detectives were already
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: working overtime behind the scenes. His car was being forensically combed,
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: his home was being searched. Officers found binoculars, ones that
• 32:27
  Speaker 1: did not have a leather strap on them anymore, knives,
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: and a pair of pliers the exact kind that you
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: could use to snip through chainling fences, like the chainling
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: fence that was snipped right at Napstrack. And remember that
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: piece of skin that they found during Natalie's autopsy, That
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: DNA was about to be matched right to Paul. It
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: was all adding up and Paul knew it. During a
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: break in questioning, one of the detectives, Darren O'Laughlin sat
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: with him was wearing a visible Christian cross under his shirt,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: something that caught Paul's attention. He leaned in and he
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: asked Darren if he believes in God. Darren said yes.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: Paul replied with something that chilled Darren to the core.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: He told him, you can lie to me, but you
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: can't lie to God. And just like that, the damn broke.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: Paul admitted to everything, the murder of Elizabeth, Deborah, Natalie,
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: the attack on Rosa, and even the break in at
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: Donna's apartment months earlier, the one where he mutilated the
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: pets left, the grotesque violent messages and everything. He didn't stumble,
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: he didn't hesitate. Once he started, it poured out in
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: a disturbing, matter of fact detail, almost as if he
• 33:50
  Speaker 1: was like doing a PowerPoint presentation, and he knew how
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: to deliver this story.
• 33:54
  Speaker 2: He just said it all that gives me goosebumps, just
• 33:58
  Speaker 2: being that investigator sitting there and starting this off with
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: that bizarre question like.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: You can lie to God but you can't, So you
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: can lie to me, but you can't light to God.
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and just like unleashes all the shit that he's done.
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: Oh. He walked investigators through the murders step by step.
• 34:17
  Speaker 1: He even took them to key locations, showed them where
• 34:20
  Speaker 1: he had hidden Deborah's purse that was missing, described how
• 34:23
  Speaker 1: he watched Natalie before ambushing her. He talked about the
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: fake gun, the stalking, how he'd quote just had the feeling,
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: you know, just the urge to kill. It wasn't rage,
• 34:36
  Speaker 1: it wasn't impulsive. This was clearly deliberate and planned, and
• 34:39
  Speaker 1: worst of all, it was void of any emotion. Detective
• 34:43
  Speaker 1: sat and listened as Paul described the final moments of
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: three innocent women like he was talking about just changing
• 34:50
  Speaker 1: a tire on the side of the road. After the confession,
• 34:53
  Speaker 1: there wasn't much left for the courts really to figure
• 34:56
  Speaker 1: out in terms of guilt. Paul had laid it all out,
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: the timeline, methods, you name it all, of it his motives,
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: even or at least what he passed his motives. But
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: the legal system still had to go through the motions
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: and maybe more importantly, try to understand what kind of
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: person would commit crimes like this in such a cold detachment.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Paul was charged with three counts of murder and one
• 35:17
  Speaker 1: of abduction. He didn't fight it. There was no trial
• 35:21
  Speaker 1: by jury because he poleted guilty across the board, and
• 35:24
  Speaker 1: within a month he was standing before the Supreme Court
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: of Victoria waiting to be sentenced. But before that happened,
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: a team of forensic psychologists had a crack at trying
• 35:34
  Speaker 1: to figure him out, and what they found was chilling.
• 35:38
  Speaker 1: Paul was not delusional, He wasn't hearing voices, suffering from psychosis,
• 35:43
  Speaker 1: nothing like that. He knew what he was doing and
• 35:46
  Speaker 1: he enjoyed it. What he was eventually diagnosed with was
• 35:51
  Speaker 1: sadistic personality disorder. Now it's not a condition you hear
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: about very often, and it's not even officially recognized in
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: modern diagnostic manuals anymore. But in Paul's case, it fit
• 36:03
  Speaker 1: like a glove. Sadistic personality disorder is exactly what it
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: sounds like, a deep seated pleasure in inflicting pain, fear,
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: and suffering onto others. It's not about losing control or
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: snapping in the heat of the moment. Instead, it's about power,
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: control and gratification through torment. And as one psychologist put it, quote,
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: the more aggressive he became, the more powerful he felt. Okay,
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: Paul said he wanted to kill since he was fourteen
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: years old. He'd been stalking women for years, long before
• 36:39
  Speaker 1: the murders. The mutilation of animals, you know, that wasn't
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: just a warning sign. It was part of the pattern
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: one we kind of honestly discuss all too often in
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: this podcast, and one that, for whatever reason, people still
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: just don't see as a red flag. There was also
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: a deep misogynistic thread running through it all. Paul didn't
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: just kill. He targeted women exclusively, and he admitted to
• 37:03
  Speaker 1: hating them. He was never sexually motivated by the crimes.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: Not a single one of his victims were sexually abused
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: or any sort of evidence of that found. But he
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: repeated expressed anger and disgust towards women, saying he wanted
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: to quote take it out on them.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Okay, do we know why he hated women? Like was
• 37:26
  Speaker 2: there something from his like upbringing or childhood or something
• 37:29
  Speaker 2: that just made him be like.
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: This, not as far as we're aware of, No, what
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: the shit? Hey, now there was like during interviews he
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: did cite a movie. This movie was called The Stepfather.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: It's something that you know, it seems to have influenced, sorry,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: influenced him a bit. It's a thriller about a man
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: who murders families and reinvents himself like over and over.
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: It's disturbing in itself, but it explains Paul's actions, like
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: about how him maybe being impression. So maybe he got
• 38:01
  Speaker 1: this like hatred for women from somewhere. Maybe it's from movies.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's like other serial killers we talked about where
• 38:10
  Speaker 1: they target sex workers, and you know, maybe it's linked
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: to that. It's just speculation. But what we do know is, hey,
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: he inspired from a movie in certain aspects, so he
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: may be influential. He's influenced relatively easy.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 38:26
  Speaker 1: On December twentieth, nineteen ninety three, Paul was sentenced to
• 38:29
  Speaker 1: three consecutive life sentences with no chance of parole. The
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: court recognized the sheer brutality of his crimes his lack
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: of remorse and the public risk he posed. It seemed
• 38:41
  Speaker 1: like the end of the story. But eleven days later,
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: Paul appealed it.
• 38:49
  Speaker 2: Okay. I was just like, okay, we're wrapping up here,
• 38:53
  Speaker 2: and then you just stared at me.
• 38:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Paul won his appeal.
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: What shit, Yeah, there's no way, there's no way.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: In July nineteen ninety four, a higher court granted him
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: a non parole period of thirty years. It meant that
• 39:12
  Speaker 1: despite everything, Paul Denier could in theory, walk free as
• 39:17
  Speaker 1: early as twenty twenty three. That's two years ago.
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: Okay, but why, like this was solid they had, like
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: he admitted to shit like d in detail, there's no way.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Well, what they're granting him is early, is that he
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: can in fact get parole. It still has these three
• 39:35
  Speaker 1: consecutive life sentences, but they're saying, okay, he can get
• 39:38
  Speaker 1: parole after thirty years.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: Okay, that's just seems so ridiculous to me. I what
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: a fuck of a bunch of shit.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: I agree? Can I continue though? You good?
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: Okay. So over Over the course of the next little bit,
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: Paul began to settle into prison life, and things honestly
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: get a little weirder from here. See Paul during his
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: time in prison. It wasn't He wasn't exactly quiet. After
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: his sentencing, he bounced around from a couple facilities, starting
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: at Melbourne Assessment Prison, then moving to HM Prison Bowern
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: and later to Port Philip Prison. Inmates like Paul usually
• 40:16
  Speaker 1: end up in maximum security for obvious reasons, and that's
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: where he stayed. But the story didn't end with you know,
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: prison gate slamming. Around two thousand and three, ten years
• 40:26
  Speaker 1: into his sentence, Paul announced he was now transgendered and
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: wanted to transition to living as a woman. He asked
• 40:35
  Speaker 1: to be known as PAULA, requested makeup, female clothing, hormone therapy,
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: and even gender reassignment surgery, all while serving a sentence
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: for violent murders of three young women.
• 40:46
  Speaker 2: Well yeah, because he hated women.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Yeah, So to say that there's these these requests sparked
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: some outrage. It's a bit of an understatement. But before
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: we discuss anything further on this topic, I want to say, like,
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: all the power to all any trans gendered individuals out there,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: Like there are reasons I'm still referring to Paul with
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: his name Paul and with male pronouns and not paula
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: and female pronouns like he's requesting. There's reasons while people
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: are a bit upset with it, and trust me, reasons
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: that I'll explain. Whether you agree with me or not
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: right now, you will agree with me at the end,
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: and there's reasons. I got you, okay, so just bear
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: with me. Hear this out fully.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: So.
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: Victims' families were horrified. They saw it as an attention
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: attention seeking stunt and basically a big old slap in
• 41:34
  Speaker 1: the face. The mother of one of the victims described
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: it as sickening, and many others agreed because the idea
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: of someone who had brutally murdered women when they openly
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: showed disgust towards them and citing it as motivation for
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: their acts, and then turning around and would want to
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: become one just didn't sit right. And not just morally
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: but logist logistically too. Moving Paul into a women prison
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: and giving him access to female spaces after crimes that
• 42:04
  Speaker 1: were so explicitly rooted in violence against women, it was
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: hard for it was hard for authorities, and it was
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: honestly like, you're putting other people at serious risk, putting
• 42:16
  Speaker 1: them in that facility as well.
• 42:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a bit scary, isn't it.
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, still not done fully explaining. So if you're still
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: on the edge and angry with me, just bear with me.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: I'll get there. So this was taken seriously. Authorities didn't
• 42:29
  Speaker 1: just scoff at the idea and assume it was bogus.
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: Psychiatrists were brought in to assess the request, and after evaluation,
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: his requests for gender reassignment surgery was denied. Officials ruled
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: that Paul did not meet the criteria for genuine, long
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: standing gender dysphoria diagnosis. They didn't see the transition as legitimate,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: at least not enough to justify the risk or the cost. Still,
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: for a while, Paul continued identifying as paula within within
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: the prison walls. He wore women's clothes, attempted to present
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: as feminine, and pushed hard for legal name changes and
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: gender recognition. None of those were approved. And this is
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: where I'm really gonna solidify why I'm saying Paul and
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: he him still because eventually, according to a twenty twenty
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: two documentary called No Mercy nor Morse, Paul reverted to
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: identifying as Paul once again, Paul is now Paul, he him,
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: which is exactly why I'm referring to Paul as Paul
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: and he him. Paul is no longer Paula. Paula and
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: she her are is a dead identity to Paul. Paul
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: is Paul now.
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: So it was kind of a short, short time span
• 43:41
  Speaker 2: that he came up with this plan.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Correct, And like to be clear, like, gender identity is
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: complex and it's very deep, a very deeply personal matter,
• 43:50
  Speaker 1: and we do understand that, but when it comes to
• 43:53
  Speaker 1: violent offenders, particularly those with documented hatred towards women, it
• 43:59
  Speaker 1: just hit everyone a little bit differently. Yeah, and that's
• 44:02
  Speaker 1: why Paul's transition it remains such a lightning rod for debate,
• 44:05
  Speaker 1: especially in Australia's criminal justice system where he resides.
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: Right, but you can respect that they gave him the opportunity,
• 44:13
  Speaker 2: like they did take it somewhat seriously, right, they did.
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: They did. They brought in psychiatrists, they evaluated, and they're like,
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: we believe this is just basically a move for you
• 44:23
  Speaker 1: to get like some better treatment of some sort, some
• 44:26
  Speaker 1: more attention potentially, And the idea that Paul came right
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: back to being Paul once again, it doesn't confirm that,
• 44:34
  Speaker 1: but it supports that idea.
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Well, imagine him going into like this if say this
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: was like some sick game or something, right, and then
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: then him moving into a woman's facility and then like
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: murdering right, someone else in there. Oh, just the thought
• 44:50
  Speaker 2: of that, it's fucking terrifying.
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: Exactly. So there's a whole like you can argue so
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: much on both sides of the fence in this, and
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: trust me, I get many of the the aspects, but
• 45:01
  Speaker 1: I personally firmly believe whatever he identified as, whether it
• 45:06
  Speaker 1: was PAULA and different pronouns or whether it was still
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: Paul and his current pronouns, regardless, there is no way
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: that that individual should be sharing the walls with other
• 45:16
  Speaker 1: females because that is the people they hate and the
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: people they target. Yeah, if you have someone who just
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: hates women and they are a woman, and they go
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: into a women's prison, they're probably going to continue hurting
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: women because that's their target demographic on who they injure
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: and who they harm and who they want to take out.
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: So, because even if there was some like rehibitbilitation going on,
• 45:40
  Speaker 2: and maybe he didn't necessarily hate women like the chances
• 45:43
  Speaker 2: of it coming back too are there when he's like
• 45:46
  Speaker 2: within the walls of like and being surrounded by a
• 45:49
  Speaker 2: whole bunch of women like, I don't, Yeah, it just
• 45:51
  Speaker 2: seems kind of scary.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Oh for sure. And like for the victims' families and
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: like the focus on like, the focus remained unchanged. Like
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: they wanted to keep Paul in prison. What ever, name, hughes,
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: whatever identity they claimed, like, that's fine, but to them
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: it was it's still the person who stole their daughters,
• 46:07
  Speaker 1: like their sisters, their partner, And they were not happy
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: with the idea of others being at risk too. So
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: it's a matter of safety of others. It was the idea.
• 46:18
  Speaker 1: But as a clock ticked towards twenty twenty three, another
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: storm was coming. By twenty twenty three, three decades had
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: passed and Paul was hey. He was locked up for murder. Right.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: The public might have moved on, but families never did.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: And suddenly that whole past came roaring back. Because twenty
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: twenty three marked that thirty year mark, and thanks to
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: a successful previous appeal back in nineteen ninety four, it
• 46:43
  Speaker 1: meant one thing. He was officially eligible for parole. Now,
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: let's be clear, parole eligibility doesn't guarantee release, but just
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: the possibility sent shockwaves through the community. The idea that
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: the man who once wanted to kill since he was
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: fourteen could just walk free, that he could be out
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: there riding the bus next to someone's daughter. That's scary.
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: Uh huh.
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Well, because it wasn't just like one like he
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: was like a serial killer.
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: He was a serial killer. Yes. Natalie Russell's parents, Brian
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: and Carmel, they were among the loudest voices fighting to
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: keep Paul behind bars. Their daughter had been just seventeen
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: years old when her life was stolen, and they weren't
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: about to let another killer, sorry, let a killer walk
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: free without a fight and potentially steal another life. Her brother, Darren,
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: now a doctor and expert in transgendered health, publicly questioned
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Paul's sincerity about transitioning. So you even have a transgendered
• 47:44
  Speaker 1: health professional questioning his genuine intent and spoke out against
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: his release. His words carried weight, calm, rational, and they were,
• 47:53
  Speaker 1: of course deeply personal. Former homicide detective journalist lawyer, sorry,
• 47:58
  Speaker 1: detectives journalist lawyer. There was commas in there. I just
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: didn't say that when I was reading it, and even
• 48:03
  Speaker 1: politicians state started speaking out. Some were shocked to learn
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: Paul had even been given a non parole period in
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: the first place. One of these people leading the charge
• 48:12
  Speaker 1: was David Limbrick, a member of Victoria's parliament and, perhaps
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: most heartbreakingly, Natalie Russell's boyfriend at the time she was murdered.
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: Dang, look at Natalie's family and friends just killing it, eh,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: I know, right, like they just became I don't like
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: these individuals that are have some power to like stop
• 48:33
  Speaker 2: this shit from going on.
• 48:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah. Now, David became a powerful advocate in the campaign
• 48:38
  Speaker 1: to change Victoria's parole laws to permanently ban Paul from
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: ever being released. David even received a letter directly from
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: Paul himself, sent via a loophole in prison communication laws
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: that allow inmates to write mpeace. In the letter, Paul
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: insisted he's rehabilitated, that he no longer is a danger,
• 49:01
  Speaker 1: that he wouldn't return to Frankfort or lang Warren. He
• 49:05
  Speaker 1: even suggested David might want to advocate on his behalf.
• 49:09
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, As.
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: You can imagine, that letter didn't go over well. Yeah,
• 49:13
  Speaker 1: In fact, it only added fuel to the fire. It
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: was seen as arrogant, manipulative, and above all dangerous. Paul
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: had spent thirty years writing letters, filing appeals and attempting
• 49:22
  Speaker 1: to reinvent himself. But never once, not once, in those
• 49:26
  Speaker 1: thirty years behind bars, did he ever show any real
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: remorse what he did. He's simply I'm better now, I'm
• 49:32
  Speaker 1: a different person. Now I'm safe, now where I'm good.
• 49:35
  Speaker 1: It was all about Paul, Okay.
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: I was gonna ask that if there was any like
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: sincerity or apology or remorse or anything that he was showing.
• 49:44
  Speaker 2: But it doesn't seem so not really.
• 49:47
  Speaker 1: His parole was formerly denied in twenty twenty three, but
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: that wasn't enough to stop the calls of change. Public
• 49:54
  Speaker 1: pressure mounted for what's known as Australia Sorry, known in
• 49:58
  Speaker 1: Australia as a no bud parole law, basically a law
• 50:02
  Speaker 1: that says some criminals are so horrific, so irreversible, that
• 50:06
  Speaker 1: no amount of time served is enough. Similar laws have
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: already been passing for other violent offenders like Russell Street,
• 50:15
  Speaker 1: the Rest Sorry, the Russell Street bomber, Craig Minogue, the
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Little Street mass shooter, Julian Knight, but for some reason,
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: Paul wasn't included in those ones, and it still stings
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: for many. So now it's become a cause not just
• 50:31
  Speaker 1: to keep Paul behind bars, but to make sure that
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: he never even gets to ask for parole again. The
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: fear is an abstract. Paul himself said he wanted to
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: kill again at one point, right he admitted to stalking
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: women for years, even before the first murder. He thrived
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: on power and control and clinical consensus. People like Paul
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: just they don't change. That's kind of what it seems like.
• 50:55
  Speaker 1: So that fight still continues to this day to ensure
• 50:58
  Speaker 1: Paul stays behind bars. Now, all that being said, it's
• 51:06
  Speaker 1: really easy sometimes and stories like this to focus on
• 51:09
  Speaker 1: the killer rather than the victims. You have the headlines, documentary,
• 51:14
  Speaker 1: the twisted psychology behind it all, and it can feel
• 51:17
  Speaker 1: like a person who caused all this harm gets most
• 51:19
  Speaker 1: of the attention. And here on our podcast we try
• 51:23
  Speaker 1: to tell the victim's story more often than not than
• 51:25
  Speaker 1: the perpetrator, though sometimes it is hard to always do that.
• 51:30
  Speaker 1: But Paul didn't create his own legacy. In my opinion,
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: Paul stole it from Elizabeth Deborah and Natalie. These weren't
• 51:39
  Speaker 1: names in a case file. They were women, real people
• 51:42
  Speaker 1: with full lives, plans and potential. Elizabeth had moved from
• 51:46
  Speaker 1: Tasmanian to Melbourne with dreams of joining armed forces. She
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: was just eighteen, quiet, determined and kind hearted and brave
• 51:54
  Speaker 1: even in her final moments. Deborah had just become a mother.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Her baby was only twelve days old when she left
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: to buy milk for dinner. She was twenty two, deeply
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: in love with her partner, excited about the next chapter
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: in their life. She never even got to hold her
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: son again. Natalie was seventeen, in her final year of school.
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: She was smart, strong, funny, someone who didn't just accept
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: the world but questioned it, the kind of person who
• 52:20
  Speaker 1: probably would have gone on to do something amazing. What
• 52:24
  Speaker 1: connects these women, besides the cruelty of how they died,
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: is the strength they gave others. Their families never stopped fighting,
• 52:32
  Speaker 1: their communities didn't forget, and their names are still spoken
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: with love and with respect. There's now a memorial pathway
• 52:39
  Speaker 1: that I kind of already alluded to, that's named NAT's Track,
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: where Natalie was attack and killed. It's a simple beautiful
• 52:46
  Speaker 1: walking trail with flowers, a bench and seventeen daisies carved
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: into a bronze sculpture, one for every year of her life.
• 52:54
  Speaker 1: It's peaceful and powerful. Deborah's son, Jake, grew up without
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: a mother, but he's he said, her memory lives with
• 53:04
  Speaker 1: the people who keep speaking her name, who fight for
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: justice on her behalf. Same for Elizabeth. Her family never
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: let her story fade even across the decades. There's also
• 53:15
  Speaker 1: been a lasting change at the legal level. The Paul
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: Denier case brought renewed focus on how parole works in Victoria,
• 53:22
  Speaker 1: how repeat offenders are handled, and how communities respond to
• 53:25
  Speaker 1: the threat of serial violence. While Paul himself has for
• 53:30
  Speaker 1: now been denied paroled, Push continues to ensure others like
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: him are never released. His crimes helped change policies, but
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: the real power came from the people who refuse to
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: let the justice system forget who it was built to protect.
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: And that is the story of the Frankston murders.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: Oh that's a doozy, Yeah it is.
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: Wow. So you can blame Patreon for that one because
• 53:57
  Speaker 1: they brought it to my attention and dang and heavy.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah it is I also, I don't know, just to
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: like very lightly touch on this, the whole appeal process
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: just sucks for like the victims' families. It has to
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: just like bring like you're just opening all those wounds again.
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: I feel like, and you have to you have to
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: do something or else these monsters are gonna just walk free. Yeah,
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: So I hope that they don't really have to go
• 54:25
  Speaker 2: through this, like I don't know if it's like every
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: five years or what. I hope that he just they
• 54:32
  Speaker 2: just make a decision or something changes where he just
• 54:34
  Speaker 2: stays in there, and that's that because he deserves to
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: stay in there. There's no way that man should get out.
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: Of there, agreed, Because I'm almost certain if he gets out,
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: he will hurt someone again.
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, because even in there, it seems like he's still
• 54:51
  Speaker 2: just playing these fucking.
• 54:52
  Speaker 1: Games pretty much pretty much.
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And and honestly not not. It hasn't like I
• 55:00
  Speaker 2: don't think it's going to ever sink in for him
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: or just like what he did and how he destroyed
• 55:05
  Speaker 2: people's lives. It's it's, yeah, it's not. He hasn't realized that,
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: I don't think, and I don't think he will.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: He may have I just don't think he cares.
• 55:14
  Speaker 2: Well, yeah, he maybe realizes, but like, yeah, he doesn't
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: give a shit. Yeah, like there's no remorse. Nope, And
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: that's not okay.
• 55:22
  Speaker 1: It's not. But that's situation. That's where they're sitting at.
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: And honestly, I mean, I don't know exactly how many
• 55:28
  Speaker 1: times he can proll or how many like what's the
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: waiting period in between? But yeah, honestly, give it a
• 55:35
  Speaker 1: couple of years. He could be on the streets.
• 55:37
  Speaker 2: And to think that he did all of this brutal
• 55:40
  Speaker 2: shit too when he was like twenty one day. Yeah,
• 55:43
  Speaker 2: that is so young to be turning into a complete monster.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: And he had prior to like at fourteen or even
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: like ten or whatever, Like, Oh, I.
• 55:54
  Speaker 1: Honestly, now, mind you, I'm not a legal individual. I
• 55:57
  Speaker 1: don't know like how it all works and stuff. So
• 56:01
  Speaker 1: there could be rules that prevent this or reason or
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: rules that like kind of align with what I'm saying.
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: I'm unaware, but am my opinion. I believe if someone
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: is able to be granted parole, I think it should
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: stack according to just like their sentences. He has three
• 56:17
  Speaker 1: life sentences, so he should be able to get parole. Stacked.
• 56:22
  Speaker 1: I mean, maybe after a life sentences he can get
• 56:24
  Speaker 1: parole in ten years, and maybe that's what happened. They
• 56:26
  Speaker 1: stacked it up to thirty. I don't know, yeah, but
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: I think whatever the parole is, it should be stacked,
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: just like the sentence.
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, fair enough, you know. Yeah. You have to also wonder.
• 56:36
  Speaker 2: I would almost like want to speak to his parents. Dude,
• 56:39
  Speaker 2: are they just you know, like, wow, okay, yeah, like
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: we we realize that we like we're raising the serial killer,
• 56:47
  Speaker 2: you know, yeah? Or is it just there? It's their
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: kid and they're kind of blind to things and they
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: didn't really see it coming at all.
• 56:56
  Speaker 1: Could you imagine that conversation though, in hindsight be like, yeah,
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: you know what, No, I think about it when he
• 57:01
  Speaker 1: was like ten and he gutted the family cat and yeah,
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: I guess I don't know.
• 57:07
  Speaker 2: Just yeah, the thought though, like they they're honestly, I'm
• 57:12
  Speaker 2: if this has affected them beyond words. I'm sure too,
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: like the fact that they this is their son, like
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: they birth this person that did terrible things. Gosh, not
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: that I'm blaming them in any way, but frick, can
• 57:25
  Speaker 2: you imagine.
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: It would have some repercussions on your mental health most likely.
• 57:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, the siblings and stuff like, holy shit, like my
• 57:32
  Speaker 2: my brother is a fucking serial killer.
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm sure they probably disown him in all honesty.
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but sometimes families don't. That's true, so they're like
• 57:44
  Speaker 2: in it thicker thin I guess.
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: Anyways, that was the Yeah, the Frankston murders of the
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: Paul danyon Den your case. Wow, he's a piece of shit.
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: I hope he rots. I hope he never gets parole.
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: He deserves to rot.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, he does not deserve to get out of there.
• 58:00
  Speaker 1: No, If you guys have a case you'd like to
• 58:03
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• 58:05
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• 58:08
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• 58:10
  Speaker 1: can definitely, you know, maybe add it to our list
• 58:12
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• 58:13
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• 58:15
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• 58:17
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• 58:19
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• 58:23
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• 58:24
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• 58:27
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• 58:29
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• 58:32
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• 58:33
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• 58:35
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• 58:37
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• 58:42
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• 58:45
  Speaker 2: Well well done as usual and until next time, stay wicked.