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What does an expert witness do? · Mental Health Matters

• 0:05
  SPEAKER_02: Hello and welcome to Mental Health Matters.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: I'm Dr.
• 0:07
  SPEAKER_02: Audrey Tang and I'm Judith Crozier, and this is the show where we talk about all things mental health and well-being without the hot takes and without the quick fixes.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_02: Now, we are bringing back a guest that we love.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_02: She is a clinical psychologist, I guess Dr.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_02: Maya Yankovska, but we are going to be talking about a little bit of extra or different work that she does, which is expert witness.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_02: I'm looking forward to it.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: Fascinating.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_02: I and I've worked in psychology for a long time, but I I still don't know what an expert witness actually does.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_02: I see it on television.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, exactly.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_02: And it's very dramatic and very exciting.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_02: I somehow think I'm going to be sorely disappointed.
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_02: So yeah, I mean, I think expert witness psychology is really important because often when you have cases whether it is an accident, negligence, any of those things, it the judgment or the the expert witness testimony will in some way impact on the outcome.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_02: So that's there's quite a lot of responsibility in there.
• 1:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I'd imagine it's such a huge amount.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because I I suppose if somebody's gone to court or or you know if there's a defendant, then there isn't enough time or opportunity to get to know everything about that.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: And even if you even if the solicitor gets to know everything about them, they they're not an expert to to diagnose any underlying issues.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: So it's yeah, it's a very responsible position.
• 1:44
  SPEAKER_02: It is, and the other thing is for me, and again, I'm sure Dr.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_02: My will explain this, but um I would sit there as a psychologist and think, Well, I have quite a good relationship with my clients.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah, I I see them all the time, and I I I understand if their energy is different, I can ask those sorts of questions, but I don't think that's possible when you're doing expert witness work.
• 2:07
  SPEAKER_02: So, again, the relationship with the person you're working with is very different and probably a bit alien to your inner, I guess, drive that made you a psychologist in the first place.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because over weeks, months, years you get to know your clients, don't you?
• 2:23
  SPEAKER_01: And but but being an expert witness, I guess, will be very different.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so let's bring her on and find out.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: Welcome back to the studio, Dr.
• 2:37
  SPEAKER_01: Maya.
• 2:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's lovely to have you here.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you very much.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_01: Lovely to be here, always.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: Oh thank you.
• 2:44
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, thank you.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um so yeah, just jump straight in, really.
• 2:49
  SPEAKER_01: Can you explain what an expert witness psychologist actually does and how it differs from being a therapist, please?
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, such a big um topic actually.
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm going to try and explain it in very lay simple language.
• 3:05
  SPEAKER_00: So an expert witness psychologist is somebody who is instructed.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so I'm instructed by a solicitor, usually, or some other professional, but usually it's a solicitor or a barista, to carry out an independent, and independent is really important, assessment and produce a written report, and that written report is then going to be used in legal proceedings.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: So it's got nothing to do with therapy and uh my duty is not at all to the person that I'm assessing.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_00: We don't even use the word client.
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: We differentiate and we use the so I do other assessments like within therapeutic settings, then I say a client.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_00: But here I would say an assee.
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm assessing this person under very strict instruction with very clear questions that I have to address, and my duty is to court, to the jury, judges, uh, you know, um, it's not to the person I'm assessing, and it's not to the solicitor who is instructing me.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: No, it's not really.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_00: Which a lot of people don't understand.
• 4:20
  SPEAKER_02: No, of course, isn't it?
• 4:21
  SPEAKER_02: Because that would be biased then, isn't it?
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: So I need to really be independent.
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um so it is fundamentally very, very different from being a therapist.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not forming any relationship with the person I'm assessing.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have duty of care, which can be incredibly difficult because we are seeing people who are often very traumatized, who might be suicidal, who are going through horrendous difficulties.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, normally in my capacity as a psychologist, I would have to do maybe a safety plan, think about whom to inform, what to do, write to a GP.
• 5:01
  SPEAKER_00: But in my capacity as a psychologist expert witness, I don't do that.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I just go on the phone or email the solicitor and say, you have to react here.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: This person is in crisis, they need um intervention immediately.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, if this is the case, obviously.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it happens.
• 5:19
  SPEAKER_00: So you can see the difference is uh huge.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay?
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_00: So my duty is only to the court, full stop.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_00: And it is difficult psychologically on me.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_00: Um so I would never enter any type of um advocacy for the person that I'm assessing.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, yeah, you can't.
• 5:40
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, so in practice it looks like that.
• 5:43
  SPEAKER_00: I receive a letter of instruction, it is usually quite a lengthy letter with clear questions, uh reminding me also of my duty to the court.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, then I arrange to meet the person either in person or online.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: The assessment is much, much longer.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_00: I triangulate the data with, so I receive also what we call a medical legal bundle.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_00: Within that it's usually medical records, but it can be also uh police reports or uh you know other experts' data, anything of therapist reports, uh anything like that.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_00: So you triangulate the data from the bundle, medical of medical legal uh documents from your assessment, which is quite different to normal assessment.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: I use clinical structure interviews, I use validated tools to uh measure specific questionnaires, I use a very structured interview, I use a lot of my observation skills as well, uh, and then I write up the report, uh, which is there, not to say whether I'm right or wrong, it's there's just there, yes.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_00: To assist the court and the court makes a decision, not me.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, very interesting.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_01: Very interesting.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_01: So um the specific set of questions that you receive then, what kind of questions uh or what kind of things are you being asked to assess?
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes there are very, very specific questions, but generally you would always expect them to uh to be around um certain areas.
• 7:23
  SPEAKER_00: So is there any diagnosable mental health disorder?
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_00: That's the first one.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously, I have to consult with uh mental health uh manual, like you know, DSM5 or ICD-11 psychologists mainly go to DSM5.
• 7:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um so is there a disorder, is it attributable to the index event?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_00: Now the index event is what happened to them.
• 7:50
  SPEAKER_00: So it might be a road traffic accident, it might be a sexual assault, it might be uh medical negligence, it might be, you know, whatever, whatever it is.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_00: So is uh what happened to them uh kind of is this event causing them the symptoms that they are experiencing right now?
• 8:11
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then uh so this is called the co the condition, and then uh the prognosis.
• 8:17
  SPEAKER_00: So how likely are they to recover, what would affect their recovery, um, and what kind of treatment I would be recommending?
• 8:25
  SPEAKER_00: And again, you know, what's the prognosis with and without the treatment and so on?
• 8:30
  SPEAKER_00: So there is so much to consider, yeah.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_02: And then not only is there so much to consider, but with your primary duty being to the court, not to the client, person you're assessing, because again, that language is very, very different, that must put some real emotional labor demands on you as well.
• 8:47
  SPEAKER_02: So, how does that shape the way you approach your work?
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I've I've already alluded that it is psychologically quite difficult because on a human level you feel towards the person that might have gone through something very difficult.
• 9:02
  SPEAKER_00: Although it's not always the case.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes, you know, uh they are um kind of applying, or I was instructed because uh they they are looking for compensation, and maybe there isn't uh a disorder there, right?
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_00: So my duty is only to court, I'm assessing the person, I'm checking if there is any diagnosable mental health disorder, I explain my rationale, uh, I put forward the diagnosis that I think is the most plausible.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_00: I can't be ever certain because there are really sometimes very confusing cases.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, and I have to show my uh inner working out, my logic.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_00: I also provide a range of differential diagnosis.
• 9:45
  SPEAKER_00: So I say, I think it's more likely it's this, but I also consider this, this, this, this, and this, and that's why I excluded it.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So you really have to, because you have to remember the judge, the jury, the tribunal, they are not psychologists, they don't understand your language, so you have to explain it in a way that the report, they can read the report and say, okay, I can see the logic, I can see how she formulated it, I can see how she arrived at this conclusion, and um and then they make a decision.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And obviously remember, in those cases, you might be instructed on one side, uh defendant or uh claimant, and uh and then you might be presented with two different expert witness reports that you have to consider and decide what you want to do with that.
• 10:33
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah, it's there's so much that you have to do, sort of keeping your own emotions in check and being a compassionate person, which you will be as a clinician, that has got to be but it is different also, if if if I may say, because you know, like um my assessment and my time with them, yes, it is an extended assessment.
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: I sometimes assess people for three hours or more, uh, so I get more time to really delve deep into their problems, but I have to keep them on point.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_00: I I can't divert, I can't wait for them to, you know, um to be ready like I would in in therapy.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: I just have to make sure that I answer all the questions, and that can be very challenging, especially if somebody is very triggered, crying, upset, uh, dissociating uh in the in the assessment, you know.
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: So you need to keep that in mind.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_00: I'm here for a very specific reason.
• 11:34
  SPEAKER_00: I have a set of questions I must answer.
• 11:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I might need to give them a break or whatever, but I need to keep them coming back to what I need to find out.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes, yes.
• 11:46
  SPEAKER_00: And of course, I also, like I said, I triangulate the data.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: Uh different expert uh witnesses do it differently.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: I usually try to read the medical legal bundle of documents beforehand, so I know I have some ideas already.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_00: Um and then I do the measures, the validated measures as well.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_00: So that gives me some information, the letter of instruction gives me some some information, and then uh I know where I'm heading more or less, although there are always surprises.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_02: And talking of surprises, um most people imagine expert witnesses as no, this doesn't happen so dramatic.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_02: Of course, of course.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_02: It's it's I'm getting the idea it's not like that.
• 12:34
  SPEAKER_02: What does it actually look like in reality?
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh well actually in reality, I would say most expert witnesses never end up in in the witness box.
• 12:45
  SPEAKER_00: We don't so uh I don't know the exact statistics, but uh approximately 90% of cases get settled before they go to court.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: And actually, this is why our reports are so important because the cases are assessed on those reports, and uh if both sides agree, let's say that there is a diagnosable mental health disorder and they suffered certain uh things and uh their life is affected in a certain way because of that index event, uh then it gets settled and it never goes to court.
• 13:23
  SPEAKER_00: And honestly, our legal system is struggling so much, and and there is such a backlog of cases in court already.
• 13:30
  SPEAKER_00: So uh you wouldn't want to be taking every curst case to court anyway.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: So, no, it doesn't happen like that.
• 13:37
  SPEAKER_00: I haven't been doing it uh for that long time, but I have a supervisor who's been doing it for over 17 years, and I asked her recently how many times have you been to court, and she said five.
• 13:49
  SPEAKER_01: In 17 years, oh my goodness me.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: That's uh really surprises me.
• 13:55
  SPEAKER_01: I think I watched too many courtroom dramas.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it even if it goes to it, I don't think it's ever that dramatic.
• 14:03
  SPEAKER_00: I can't imagine it being like that because uh yes, you will be faced with some difficult questions, but if you've done your work correctly, if you have showed uh how you actually arrived at your conclusion, how you considered different diagnoses, different uh scenarios, different outcomes with without treatment and so on, um it's very unlikely that you wouldn't be able to defend your report.
• 14:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, absolutely.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_01: Gosh, how interesting.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's mind-blowing, actually.
• 14:33
  SPEAKER_00: But having said so, on that topic, um uh I have to say there are some kind of horrible shark companies out there who are preying on newly qualified psychologists and other expert witnesses, because obviously it's not only psychologists who are expert witnesses, and they press people to take work on and they say like 300 pounds for the report.
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_00: I mean no, because 300 pounds wouldn't even cover in my work the three hours of assessment, right?
• 15:04
  SPEAKER_00: And you know, it is very scary because then people are pressed to do uh a very basic job, not to think it through, you know, they they might be rushing, they might be taking shortcuts, and then they might be in in in a very murky waters where they actually do go to court.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: I wouldn't want to be in this position, so I don't work for companies like that.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_00: Sadly, there are more and more of them.
• 15:30
  SPEAKER_01: And it impacts the defendant's um life essentially if they're not doing a it's not it's not good.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: So you specialize in PTSD.
• 15:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um what kind of cases do you typically see?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what does the psychol psychological assessment for the court in cases of PTSD actually involve?
• 15:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, so I work for myself uh in my private practice, but I'm also an associate, which means I take referrals from London Trauma Specialists Clinic.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_00: So uh my cases are mainly PTSD or complex PTSD.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they are uh like on a lucky day, on uh with a simple case, it might be uh road traffic accident or for instance work placement injury.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh usually the much more complicated cases are cases of medical negligence, cases of uh abuse like sick cases, or um sometimes murder trials or things like that.
• 16:35
  SPEAKER_00: I try not to go down that route.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_00: Uh my supervisor, who is very experienced in cases um of women who murder their um uh partners, um does often get instructed in this different supervisor, and we have a lot of supervisors, and uh she's been to court much more because of that.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_00: Because that is a court decision, yeah.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and it also gets much more attention from media.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, of course.
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, I try not to uh go that high level.
• 17:07
  SPEAKER_00: And also, you know, uh I've been I still, even though I've been in practice for many, many years, I still see myself as a fairly new expert witness.
• 17:16
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to take uh cases that are slightly simpler, and definitely you always, always have to stay within your very narrow area of expertise.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yes, yes.
• 17:27
  SPEAKER_00: So for instance, in my case, this is sometimes, especially with accidents, you get somebody who might be also experiencing symptoms of chronic pain.
• 17:36
  SPEAKER_00: Because I'm not a pain specialist, I would always defer.
• 17:39
  SPEAKER_00: I would say this is outside of my area of expertise.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: I can assess for PTSD or other disorders.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, but um I would be recommending that there is a referral made to pain management clinic or uh a pain expert if if uh this is relevant or required.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 17:59
  SPEAKER_01: And so if there are two expert witnesses involved in a case and they give different diagnoses, how does the court handle that?
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so first of all, there might be many more than two expert witnesses.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_00: I'm currently on a case that uh, I don't know, I think there is probably ten expert witnesses.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you think about medical negligence or complex interra cases, you will have a psychologist, you might have a psychiatrist, you will have uh a pain specialist, maybe ENT, maybe a surgeon, maybe uh, you know, all of the things that criticism.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_00: So actually, and it then becomes the the medical uh documentation bundle becomes huge.
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and half of those documents I don't frankly understand.
• 18:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm looking, I'm scanning those documents and looking for anything relevant to psychology.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think what you are referring to is when we have a claimant and defendant side and yeah, one says this, the other says that.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, yeah.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_00: Actually, again, it's so misunderstood, and people think that there is some huge argument and we have to agree or you know, know the process that we go through.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_00: So I don't see the other party's um report uh until it gets to what we call a joint expert witness statement.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_00: And many cases don't go to this stage because they get settled before.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_00: So let's say if if I send my report to the solicitor who instructed me, the other person sends it to today, uh and they look uh together, we don't see it at the stage.
• 19:35
  SPEAKER_00: They look at the documents and they think, oh, actually they they diagnose the same thing or very similar thing.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: No problem, the case gets settled.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even see the other party's report, right?
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_00: If there are differences, uh then uh we have to go to this joint expert meeting.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And in that meeting we just have to uh uh discuss matters we agree on and matters we disagree on, and we have to write a common report on matters we agree and disagree, and why show our workings uh and it goes to court, it's not our decision.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, I'm not there to convince the other person, the other person is not there to convince me.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: However, there are situations when uh you sit there and you think, oh yeah, I haven't even thought about it.
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, I will change my opinion on this element or whatever.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's just a very professional and uh usually a useful conversation to have between the two experts, and then uh one of them will write the final uh report, which the court likes to be short and sweet, like one to two pages maximum.
• 20:44
  SPEAKER_01: Oh my gosh.
• 20:45
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and it goes to court uh and then they decide.
• 20:49
  SPEAKER_00: Now the thing is, again, very deeply misunderstood by uh public.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_00: We if we let's say if I put I'll put uh I'll keep it very simple, if I said that this person is suffering from a disorder which which I named as travel phobia, and the other expert says, well, it's adjustment disorder, it actually doesn't matter.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so there are thousands of disorders and they share common symptomathology, and actually those two are quite similar.
• 21:23
  SPEAKER_00: So actually they just emphasize slightly different things, uh, but in terms of legal matters, they would attract the same level of compensation in court.
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it actually does.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_02: But the fact that they're suffering, yeah.
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, yeah.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and they have some diagnosable mental health disorder.
• 21:44
  SPEAKER_00: Where it gets more tricky is if let's say I say this person has got PTSD for sure, and the other expert says they don't have any disorder whatsoever whatsoever, then it's difficult.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_00: Or if I say this is um um I don't know.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_00: Acute stress response and somebody says PTSD.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because PTSD does attract higher uh compensation level.
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_00: So but then again, you just put together a document in which you say what we agree on, what we disagree on, and it's up to the judge, the jury, or the tribunal.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 22:19
  SPEAKER_02: As you've been speaking, a lot of what you say is about keeping things robust, keeping things to stand up to scrutiny.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_02: What do the courts look for in terms of your working?
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_02: So not talking about the diagnosis now or the outcome, but what do they look for to say this expert witness has done their job?
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: So as you can imagine, not everyone can be an expert witness.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: Uh everyone can be a witness in court.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_00: We can be professional witnesses or personal witnesses, but not everyone can be a professional expert witness, uh, like a psychology expert witness.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_00: So even if you're a psychologist, you have to be HCPC registered clinical counselling forensic or psychologist, and then you go on a very uh robust training.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_00: And there are only a few bodies in the UK that provide this training, like the British Psychological Society, the Bonsolon and Expert Witness Institute.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, so you get training from one of those institutions, you get certified, you have to uh keep updating your knowledge, get your CPD, get your supervision, peer supervision, and so on.
• 23:26
  SPEAKER_00: Um and so this is the first thing.
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_00: And within that training, they teach you how to write the report.
• 23:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's a very different report with very structured sections, and uh the court would have to see all those sections.
• 23:42
  SPEAKER_00: And on top of that, you need to know the differences between criminal court, uh civil court, family court, and so on.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_00: So the wording of the report and things that you put in or leave out will be different.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to go into technicalities of it, but it it is quite a complex thing.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and then you would um you would put certain things in, you would have a summary of the diagnosis and uh your opinion at the beginning, then you would have uh a kind of description of the interview, uh, then you would have all the uh description and what you learned from the medical documentation bundle, uh, then your uh validated measures, then you would uh start showing how you started formulating, what what type of disorders you did consider, uh, and which one you feel is more likely and why.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: You support it with research, as you can imagine, appendices can be quite lengthy, uh, you put in the diagnostic criteria in the appendices, references, all of that.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, depending on the report, it can be 20 pages, it can be 80 pages.
• 24:52
  SPEAKER_02: Wow, yeah.
• 24:54
  SPEAKER_02: And so, well, just from what you're saying, not only is the work itself so intense, but you're also dealing with quite difficult cases.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_02: So, really, I'm curious about how do you look after yourself whilst you're doing that.
• 25:08
  SPEAKER_02: Maybe when it is a particularly difficult, not just mentally difficult but emotionally difficult case.
• 25:15
  SPEAKER_02: How do you look after your own well-being?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, it it can really take the toll on you, and I personally don't take more than one case every couple of months.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_00: I know people who do several a week.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know how they do it.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_00: Uh I it would probably make me feel sick myself.
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, because obviously there is uh vicarious trauma or secondary trauma and you know, demon, and I also do clinical work with clients who have PTSD, so it all kind of can uh be combined and have an impact on me.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I try to make sure I have breaks, I always go to nature.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about cold water swimming the other day.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_00: So I do cold water swimming, I walk uh when I can, I run, uh, I have breaks, I have holidays, so this is really important for me.
• 26:10
  SPEAKER_00: I also have peer supervision, supervision.
• 26:14
  SPEAKER_00: I belong to a membership for expert witnesses where we kind of meet uh once a month and talk about things.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_00: So all of that kind of helps me, but I'm not going to lie, it is hard work.
• 26:29
  SPEAKER_00: But I think you know, so many people shy away from it and don't want to do it for fear of going to court or whatever.
• 26:35
  SPEAKER_00: But we have duty, duty to to the society to to the judicial system, and so yeah.
• 26:42
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:43
  SPEAKER_02: Oh gosh, I mean Dr.
• 26:44
  SPEAKER_02: Bea, thank you so much for coming to share that insight into I would say a very misunderstood profession because we don't talk about it, so we just think what we see on LA law or whatever, and that's not even the British court, is is what happened to the British not even Judge Judy.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_02: So this is it's been so interesting.
• 27:06
  SPEAKER_02: So if somebody would like to hire your services as an expert witness, where would they contact you and then just generally get in touch with you, where would they be able to contact you?
• 27:14
  SPEAKER_00: Generally, I would say don't.
• 27:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, because that's not the process.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: You don't get uh instructed by a client.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: The solicitor instructs.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: Um and and actually, you know, I have had people contact me.
• 27:27
  SPEAKER_00: I've taken one case on, but I had to be very clear and say, look, you need to go back to your solicitor and get the letter of instruction.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_00: They have to instruct me.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: My relationship uh is with them, but I'm not I don't I don't have obviously uh duty towards them.
• 27:46
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and the reason for it is that if you instruct a psychologist yourself, you don't know what questions you are asking.
• 27:56
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know what to ask, you don't know what you are uh, you don't know what the court is looking for, you don't know the legal system.
• 28:02
  SPEAKER_00: The questions in the instruction letter I get depending on the complexity of the case.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: The last case that I did within the immigration law, I received three A4 pages of questions.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, and they were very technical, very specific.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and you know it does matter because the solicitor is kind of fighting for the client to stay in this country.
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_00: And there are specific reasons for it.
• 28:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if that client, very traumatized client who was actually dissociating in the assessment who couldn't give me uh evidence, right, uh she was really struggling.
• 28:41
  SPEAKER_00: If she was going with uh you know with her mental state to try and interact me, that would be a disaster.
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_00: So I know that solicitors are incredibly expensive.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: I know that the legal cases cost a lot of money, but um if something terrible happened to you, right, and you want to be supported with evidence from expert witness, you need to invest in the proper rules.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, because it is about due process.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 29:08
  SPEAKER_02: Meyer, this has been so enlightening.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_02: Thank you so much, and we hope to see you back on the show again.
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, yeah, I should also add obviously if any local solicitor is looking for expert witness, they should be instructing me because it's a funny thing, you know.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_00: I get instructed all over the country, but not so much here.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_01: How interesting.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_01: So it goes shout out to Bedford solicitors, really.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: More more than clients themselves, personally.
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's so insightful, so interesting.
• 29:37
  SPEAKER_02: Fascinating.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: Brilliant insight.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_02: We will head over to Test the Trend.
• 29:46
  SPEAKER_02: This week on Test the Trend.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_02: We're not going to teach you how to be an expert witness because I I can't do that at all.
• 29:52
  SPEAKER_02: But what I do want you to think about is the type of decision that juries need to make because any one of us can be called up on jury duty.
• 30:00
  SPEAKER_02: So again, you you can do this out there, you can do this if you're listening, but Jude, you're going to do this for me here.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_02: I just want you to think about this statement.
• 30:10
  SPEAKER_02: So I'm going to give you a statement, and I used to do this particular exercise with my year sevens to look at how judgment changes.
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_02: That's all we're looking at.
• 30:19
  SPEAKER_02: And so juries, people off the street sometimes, often, um, have to make these decisions.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, Alex is driving home late at night, it's raining, visibility is poor, a person steps into the road suddenly.
• 30:32
  SPEAKER_02: Alex hits them, the person is seriously injured.
• 30:36
  SPEAKER_02: Right now, do you feel more sympathy for Alex or the person who was hit?
• 30:41
  SPEAKER_01: For both, but in terms of who might be to blame, probably the person who just stepped out in front of the car.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_01: And did you say it was raining?
• 30:50
  SPEAKER_02: It was raining.
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 30:52
  SPEAKER_01: So I'd have um more sympathy for for Alex in because it Because of the visibility.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: The visibility and not being able to stop in time because it wasn't his fault that the person stepped out in front of the car.
• 31:04
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, alright, let's carry on.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_02: Alex had been messaging on their phone and they were slightly over the speed limit, and they'd had two glasses of wine.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_02: Where are we now?
• 31:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, well, now uh uh yeah he should have the book thrown at him, you know.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_02: Okay, interesting.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_02: And then lastly, the person who stepped out into the road was wearing dark clothes, crossing illegally, and had also been drinking.
• 31:34
  SPEAKER_01: So now I'd say they're both as bad as each other.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_01: Um, well, the one walking was irresponsible, the one driving was committing a crime.
• 31:47
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_02: So nothing about the accident.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_02: What actually happened?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_02: Someone was driving, someone got hit, nothing actually changed, but the story changed.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, so interesting.
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_02: And judgment will move and swing each time.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_02: And this is exactly what do with year sevens, who were all very, oh, I think this one's wrong, I think this is right.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_02: We're both teachers, ex-teachers.
• 32:06
  SPEAKER_02: We see this happen.
• 32:07
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and you do that, and you feed extra bits of the story as you go along, and then it's so interesting to see them go, oh wait, oh, yes, and sometimes it just doesn't hurt to do that in life.
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_02: We might have a thought in our head if we can look a little bit more broadly around that situation, that is your challenge for this week.
• 32:35
  SPEAKER_01: Another fascinating conversation.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I really love that.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_01: I could have talked about that all day.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_02: I know, I was it's so interesting.
• 32:42
  SPEAKER_02: And just relating to our test of the trend, my judgment has changed so much on what an expert witness does, and I can understand why somebody wouldn't want to qualify in that field because the amount of work and and real it's almost like having to do another law degree or something like that on top of your psychology because of the format everything has to be done in and the process.
• 33:05
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's a huge amount of work.
• 33:07
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I hadn't realised, I hadn't realised everything that went into it, and I hadn't actually taken on board the responsibility that expert witnesses must feel because their judgment, their you know, summary of of the person can sway something either way, and so there's a lot of responsibility.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_02: There is, and also the very important point that Dr.
• 33:32
  SPEAKER_02: Meyer made about you don't call me, your solicitor calls me, yeah, again, hugely important because so many people, and this is what I'm so scared of because I see it in mental health.
• 33:44
  SPEAKER_02: The reason why people aren't going to the actual healer is because so-and-so's watched it on Instagram and it's free, yeah, and that is not always the appropriate thing.
• 33:55
  SPEAKER_02: And so if now you are getting maybe a small underbelly, but that will grow, of people going, well, I'll just go direct.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_02: And then I don't know the ethics of the psychologists, but if they then sit there and go, Oh, I can do that, because um I said to Dr.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_02: Meyer offset, I was approached on LinkedIn to do expert witness work, and I just said to them, I don't know what makes you come to me.
• 34:23
  SPEAKER_02: There is nothing on my profile that says expert witness or anything even remotely related to that.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: I'm well-being.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_01: What bit of that?
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly, but that just shows you know you've got integrity, you were honest with them and went back to them, but somebody else might just take the money and just do it anyway.
• 34:43
  SPEAKER_03: Scary.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_02: Well, it is because if they don't have the knowledge, the understanding, the the qualifications, and we see this so much in the mental health field, yeah, and this is why this is why I'm so passionate about this show, because it is all about having credibility and integrity, and we talk to people who actually work professionally and are qualified to do this, and that to me is the content that needs to be out there, not just somebody who in five minutes can give you five hot takes on CTSD.
• 35:17
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, exactly.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: That scares me, and and I think this show probably highlights more than most the difference between having somebody qualified and experienced and not, and the impact that that could potentially have.
• 35:34
  SPEAKER_02: Yes, and that is really what I took away from our conversation with Dr.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_02: Meyer.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, it was the fact that if you don't just as simple as if you're not even instructed appropriately, you won't answer the questions.
• 35:46
  SPEAKER_02: And then if you don't know how to answer the questions because you haven't been trained, that is someone's life we're dealing with.
• 35:53
  SPEAKER_02: Exactly.
• 35:54
  SPEAKER_02: And you don't have a lot of time to do that.
• 35:56
  SPEAKER_02: It's not like in therapy, and I don't mean to actually dismiss therapy, but in therapy you will see that person again.
• 36:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, of course.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_02: There is that opportunity to go, oh, last time when we spoke, I wasn't clear on this.
• 36:08
  SPEAKER_02: Could we revisit that?
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: It's not like that.
• 36:12
  SPEAKER_01: No, it's um it's it's a window of time they have, and in that time, they the expert, the psychologist expert witness has to make a judgment on that person which to give to the court.
• 36:24
  SPEAKER_01: To give to the court, and then make other judgments, yeah, based on that, and it's yeah, it's um it's a huge responsibility.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_02: So on that, think think with integrity, do things with intention, yes, and from all of us at Mental Health Matters, have a healthy week.