Latest / Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps / Do We Need Gay Pride?

Transcript

Do We Need Gay Pride? · Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Szeps

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Welcome to Pride. You have reached a stop on our Acast Audio Pride Parade where we travel
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around the world to hear from our LGBTQ plus creators on what Pride means to them.
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So grab your whistle, get your face paint on and settle into a special celebration of Pride.
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And at the end of this podcast, we'll hear where our audio pride parade is heading next.
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So stay tuned!
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Let's get a humans on Josh Seps, host of Uncomfortable Conversations, obviously because this
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is podcast called Uncomfortable Conversations with Josh Seps and I just said who I am.
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All that aside, this is a special episode. It's part of the Acast Audio Pride Parade.
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My reflections on Pride. For those of you who know me, it may come as no surprise to you
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that my thoughts about this are complicated and they don't fall as neatly into the tribal
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camps that you might assume they would for a gentleman who identifies perhaps gradually
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as a member of the LGBTQI plus community. We're a community. We also sit around and have
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tea and scones of a Saturday afternoon. If you're just joining the show as a result of having
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stumbled upon this show as part of the Acast Global Audio Pride Parade where podcasts
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on the Acast Network all over the world, hand off to each other, week on week, jet setting
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around from city to the city, podcast to podcast, host to host,
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ruminating on what Pride means to us and what it was like to grow up LGBTQI plus in our city
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and what the community is like where we live and what the struggles are and what the common
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experience is and where and how we celebrate Pride. If you are new to me, you may remember me
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by way of introduction from one of my many appearances on Joe Rogan's podcast, the most
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reason to which went viral during the Joe Rogan Spotify COVID controversy, where there's an
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adverse risk associated with the vaccine. It's two to fourfold increase in the instances of
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myocarditis. Yes, but you know what the hospitalization, you know that there's an increased risk of
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myocarditis among that age cohort from getting COVID as well, which exceeds the risk of myocarditis
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from the vaccine. I don't think that's true. I don't think it's true. No, no, no, no, I don't think
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it's true that there's an increased risk of myocarditis from people catching COVID that are young
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versus increased risk of myocarditis from the vaccine. No, there is. There's bugs. Well,
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let's look that up because I don't think that's true. There's been myocarditis more common
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after COVID-19 infection than vaccination. But is this with children? Yeah, we're talking about
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young people and boys aged under 30 after this. What says here with children is the issue.
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Well, no, we were talking about 15 year olds. Well, we're talking about young children.
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So, yes, 12 to 17. 12 to 17, more like to build myocarditis with three months of catching COVID
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at a rate of 450 cases per million infection. This compares to 67 cases of myocarditis per million
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of the same time, following their second dose of Pfizer. Yes, so you're about eight times likely to
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get myocarditis from getting COVID than from getting the vaccine. That's interesting. That's not
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what I've read before. But also, it's like, well, even when we're reading these things,
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it's like, what are we getting this from? It was this from the VAERS report. But even from the VAERS
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reports, when they report this stuff. So that went viral. And now I'd like to welcome you to
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uncomfortable conversations. Let's begin with what it was like growing up LGBTQI plus in my town
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of Sydney. I'd begin by saying that there is no such thing as growing up LGBTQI plus because
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trans people have a very different experience from lesbians who have a very different experience
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from gay people who have a very different experience from plus. Whatever plus is. And so the
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experience personally of growing up as someone in a city who was a city that is renowned for being
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one of the gayest cities in the world was both positive and negative. Sydney in the 90s was
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flamboyantly, wonderfully, deliciously, ostentatiously gay. The Sydney gay and lesbian
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madagraph is the biggest gay and lesbian event in the world. Sydney is proud of its gay and queer
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diversity. But as a result, for someone who found himself attracted to boys and girls and
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was quite a brainy philosophical kid who just thought that, look, obviously everybody finds
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attractive people attractive and charming people charming and sexy people sexy. I just assumed
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that we're all following some kind of a cultural norm, a social rule that says that
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if you are a normal person, then you hook up with members of the opposite sex. And if you
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love fashion and you speak in a certain way and you don't like sport and you want to drive along
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through the gay and lesbian madagraph atop a huge inflatable penis wearing arseless chaps and waving
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rainbow flags, then you date people the same sex. And that binary was caused partly by homophobes
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and anti-gay bigots. But partly I must say by gayness itself, by the notion of pride at the turn
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of this century. Now, I'm not saying that pride was never necessary or that pride wasn't important.
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Indeed, today, if you're listening to this in Nigeria or Pakistan or rural Alabama, then it's
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probably very important for the queer community to come together around itself and be supportive
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and aggressive and perhaps doctrinaire in defending the contours of what it means to be a member of
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this quote unquote community. And certainly in the past, that was necessary. We needed it to get
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to stonewall and we needed it to get equal rights. We maybe even needed it up until we got
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marriage equality. But I had had fulfilling relationships with girls when I was young.
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And what it was like for me to come out and for me to be a member of this community
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was a massive confusion, a total mess of confusion, the blame for which I place as I say at the
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feet of the gay community just as much as I do at the feet of homophobes. Before I elaborate on this,
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I want you to listen to something. My partner, my spouse, my husband, has a podcast of his own.
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It's called Come Out Wherever You Are. And it's interviews with people about their coming
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out stories. Well, the final guest of his first season was me. And I can't really do a better
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job of articulating the messy conflictedness of pride than I did when he put me on the spot with
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his very first question. Take a listen. Let's start with the fact that when our producers
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resound to you, we gave you a formula, a little introduction formula. We said, tell us your name,
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tell us your sexuality and when you came out. And you did not identify your sexuality in that
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sentence. Why? Because I'm not sure that it is useful to anybody to think about each other in
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categories. If I were to say I'm Josh Sips and I'm gay, which would be a fine thing to say,
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and would make a lot of sense to a lot of people, and I don't have any problem saying, the most
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people that would include a whole bunch of characteristics that I don't think are relevant
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to the question of my sexuality or who I am. So gay has a certain style, it has a certain
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fashion. I mean, look at what you're wearing. Come on, you are gay. You are flaming.
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I mean, it's facet. It's true. You look fantastic. Ladies and gentlemen,
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of the jury, he's wearing yellow and pink. It's a cardigan. He looks like a picture, a picture
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Harry style. He looks like there's been an explosion in a cotton factory and it's all come together
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into, anyway, let's not go into fashion. But you know what I mean? There's a certain way of
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talking, a certain way of walking, a certain way of a certain politics, a certain musical style.
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And I always felt that found that to be alienating. And let me be clear, I'm not saying that gay
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is that and I'm not saying that all gay people are that. What I'm saying is that there's a kind of
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psychological cultural intellectual category that we've created, which is a fiction, which was
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created by people who share a particular style. And they've created their box in their community,
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and that's fine for them to live in. But I'll only play along with that definition to the extent
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that it's useful for people to understand that I happen to be married to a man and that I
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happen to be turned on by attractive men. Like beyond that, I don't think that all of the other
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baggage that goes along with the term is particularly useful. So I'll avoid it when I can.
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So that's me on my husband's podcast. And there's something else that I didn't say there that's
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relevant, I think, to thinking about pride, which is I don't really take pride in things that I
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have no control over. I'm not proud that I'm six foot. I'm not proud that I was raised in a family
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with a good command of the English language. And so I can communicate well. And I'm not ashamed
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of not being six foot two. I just don't think that pride is something that I ascribe to things
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that weren't my doing. So I'm a little bit, I understand that if you're raised in a culture
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and a society where you're inculcated from day one with a sense of shame about who you are, shame
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about something over which you have no control, then it made sense just to counter that
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those forces of imposed shame with a sense of inner pride. But once there are no longer
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very strong forces coming from outside, insisting that you be ashamed of something over which
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you have no control, it doesn't make a lot of sense to me to take credit for something over
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which I have no control. Now let's just talk about gayness for a second. Historically the idea
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of there being people who are gay and people who are straight is pretty anomalous. The idea that
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nine out of ten people are constituted in such a way that they will always find any physical
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connection to members of the same sex repulsive and that 10% of the population or whatever it is
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is constituted in such a way that they are only and irrevocably attracted to members of the same
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sex and then you've got a few other people sort of at the margins who might be bisexuals or
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intersex or transgender. That idea is relatively new and it came out of in the late 19th century
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the identification of the homosexual as a deviant individual and the response to that by members of
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that community was to cohere as a community to start instantiating themselves as a people as a
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tribe with common goals, common aspirations, common effects, common ways of behaving, common interests
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and to create this community of human beings and to assert, yes we are here, we are queer,
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we are a people but that had never been the case historically. I mean back in you know
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everyone always trots out ancient Greece and ancient Rome when all the wise elders were
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shagging young boys that was not considered to be a gay thing throughout most of history you can
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look at Samoa and Tonga you can look at Paris in the 19th century there are all kinds of
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societies and cultures in the past where there's been a much grayer understanding of what the
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heart and the loins are attracted to than the binary that were expected to believe that gets
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routed by both Christian conservatives and hard-line gay activists that you know we were born
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this way we have no control over it that's not my experience and I know a lot of people who have
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slept with straight guys and I don't think those straight guys are closeted gay men really
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I think that our attractions our sense of ourselves is complicated and messy I mean when I first
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moved to New York City I lived in New York for the majority of my adult life I used to work on
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Huff Post Live as a host and producer and when I moved to New York City outside my window there was
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a huge Abercrombian Fitch billboard and all it was was the torso of a young man from his nipples
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you can see his head above it down to like just below his pubes and you could see a little string
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like a ribbon of of jeans at the very very bottom and it was just Abercrombian Fitch
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that is not being sold to gay men that's being sold to young straight men and young straight men
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are feeling something when they see that torso now does that occur to them as them getting a
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boner and wanting to blow the holder of the torso no no I don't think so but is there some kind
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of aspirational attraction there is there some kind of a desire to be that thing to want that
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thing to crave that thing that just walks you up to the edge of homo eroticism of course there is
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look at the catwalks of Paris and Milan look at the fact that we are all obviously attracted
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to certain ideals of beauty and that doesn't cleave innocently or cleanly along sex and gender
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lines like what is being sold in that Abercrombian it's the guy it's the guy with his you know
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little strip of jeans and his little hint of pubes being sold to other young guys that doesn't
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mean that all guys are gay and they're in the closet what it means is that lust is messy love is
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messy aspirations are messy but what we've created in the second half of the 20th century well really
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throughout the 20th century and what we are still inheritors of is this conception that you're either
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in or you're out that you're either gay or straight by whatever it might be but basically let's
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talk about the game as being gay or straight don't have to keep qualifying it with the other letters
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in the endless acronym humanity is divided into these two types of people we're supposed to believe
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people who were born this way but in other eras and in other places the people who are looking at
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that Abercrombian fetch torso would not feel afraid necessarily of feeling aroused by it would not
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feel that if they did get aroused by it it would mean that they had to jump out of the community of
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who they are and into another community that has a certain way of talking a certain way of dancing
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a certain politics a certain fashion a certain style a certain set of interests that would betray
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everything else about them that isn't their sexual attraction today unfortunately
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for a young male to confess attraction to another male although this is changing it is getting
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better there is much more sexuality fluidity and gender fluidity but certainly when I was growing
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there was an expectation that you can either be this thing or that thing and I definitely
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wasn't that thing in my fashion or my interests so I was this thing and I didn't know where that left me
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so the question is less for me about is pride necessary in order to overcome prejudice
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and more a question of at what point does pride cease having served us and does it start becoming
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an impediment because it actually plays into the same binary narrative that the Christian
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conservative is pushing of an us under them now you might say well sure there could be a downside
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to being too cohesive as a community too proud as a community because you might alienate people
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who don't feel like they fit in maybe it's too small-minded maybe it's too rigid but it's worth
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it because there's still so much discrimination this is something I hear a lot there's still so
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much discrimination against the LGBTQI plus alphabet soup that we need pride well if what we're
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talking about is being teased for being gay I wholeheartedly agree there is still way too much of
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that people are mean especially adolescents and people will continue to be mean but they'll be
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they'll continue to be mean to you for whatever they can find out about you that is different
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if you can't catch a ball they'll tease you for that even if you're straight if you're skinny
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they'll tease you for that if you're fat they'll tease you for that if you're ugly you're less
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likely to get hired you won't just not you won't just get teased studies have been done ugly people
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are not as successful in job interviews they're also less likely to be promoted if you're short
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especially as a man you are less likely to get hired you're less likely to be promoted and you
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get paid less we talk about the gender pay gap there is a there is a shortness pay gap if you're
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socially awkward you're less likely to get hired and you're less likely to be promoted and if you're
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socially awkward you will get teased so let's just accept that we live in a world in which some people
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are sometimes mean and nasty and yes if you're gay or you're lesbian or you're bi
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you will get teased and you will get teased for that but if you weren't one of those things you
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would probably be getting teased for whatever else people could find out about you because very
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few people don't get teased unless you're the high school football jock and you're absolutely
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gorgeous and everybody loves you you're probably getting teased for something and if we're talking
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about bigger discrimination if we're saying we need pride we need a cohesive community that
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aggressively asserts itself in the 21st century not because we get teased and demeaned and belittled
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for our sexuality but because there is a bigger scope of discrimination going on
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I would ask you to point me to where that discrimination is again if you're in Nigeria or Pakistan
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yes absolutely very much needed but if you're listening to this podcast if you're listening to
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my voice now you probably live in a big city in a rich western country and if you live in a big
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city in a rich western country in the 2020s every company in your city has a diversity and inclusion
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policy that proactively celebrates the queer community that proactively celebrates pride
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every corporation puts rainbow flags on their ads their press releases their social media accounts
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hollywood is heavily gay hollywood is flaming in companies too
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Australia's largest airline quantus is run by a gay man apple is run by a gay man
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the head of maces is gay the head of doubt chemicals is gay the head of fidelity one of the
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largest asset managed in the world is a lesbian what about entertainment how oppressed are we in
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entertainment gay TV shows are everywhere RuPaul the L word shits Creek is one of the most celebrated
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shows of the decade created by and starring a gay man who plays a gay man oranges the new black
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euphoria Grayson Frankie sex education queer eye crashing looking glee modern family riverdale
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now everyone's going gargaw for heart stopper even star trek discovery has a gay space couple
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are we really saying at this point in big cities in rich western countries in 2022 that non heterosexual
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people are subjected to widespread culturally accepted bigotry if the 15 year old high school
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is suppressed because he has a crush on a boy how much is that because of anti gay hatred
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and how much of that is because of the expectation that if he is open about the truth of his heart
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and his lines he will be bundled into a rigid conception of proud flamboyant gayness that changes
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who he is for me was the latter for me I was less concerned about anti gay hatred about people
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thinking that I was going to go to hell and religion is the other elephant in the room here I would
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add to the Nigeria Pakistan rural Alabama caveat that if you live in a deeply religious family
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or community then yes you need pride to get the hell out of dodge but putting that aside
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most of us in the secular rich big city 21st century in my experience a more suppressed more
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stymied by the insistence on a particular conception of gayness that pride is emblematic of
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than we are by anti gay bigots who are currently persona non grata in all of the boardrooms
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in everywhere everywhere there are a few things that you could say in a major company today
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that would raise as many eyebrows and be as likely to get you hauled before HR
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than something openly homophobic does this mean there's no anti gay hatred of course not
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but at some point the question becomes what is the utility in maintaining and sustaining
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and feeding a mentality of victimhood there's just a lot of victimhood today and part of what
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this podcast uncomfortable conversation seeks to do is to have conversations that trigger the
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trip wires of the culture wars in smart and intelligent and empathetic ways that sort of steel man
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our opponents and try to be as generous as we can towards what they're actually trying to articulate
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rather than playing gotcha all the time I think it's ridiculous that so many people are expected
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to have beliefs that fall into a particular bucket a particular silo such that if you tell me
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what you think about climate change I can probably tell you what you think about corporate taxes
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now that's crazy the two things don't have anything to do with each other but conservatives think
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one way on both and progressives think one way on both we'll screw that I want to be a bit
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heterodox I want us to be able to think for ourselves and part of thinking for ourselves means
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not embracing a victim mentality every time we can and we hear a lot about identity politics
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and about cancel culture and workness and all that stuff you don't have to buy into the narrative
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that that is humankind's greatest threat to nonetheless see that there is something corrosive
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psychologically corrosive culturally corrosive about forming packs tribes mobs warring factions
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that are just sniping at each other all the time forming their own conceptions of their own
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interests engaging in a warfare of all against all instead of seeing themselves as part of a common
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demo so common common polity that we're all involved in instead of giving each other the benefit
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of the doubt and trying to speak to the highest intelligence of your opponents instead of the lowest
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trying not to caricature them yeah my grandparents were Holocaust survivors my dad came to Australia as a refugee
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and my grandmother never lost her sense of victimization and it killed her psychologically
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everything was anti-Semitism everyone was out to get the Jews all the time it's not a healthy way to live
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not everyone's always out to get you sometimes in the struggle for civil rights you've got to stick
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say stick a fork in it it's done the turkey is roasted yeah there are still a lot of problems
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but at some point constantly fighting and struggling as if you're a victim as if everybody hates you
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as if the deck is stacked against you as if you have to rub everyone else's face in your fabulous
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at some point not only does it not achieve what you want it to achieve out in the real world because
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people feel like they're being swept along on a cultural movement that they didn't choose to be
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part of but it isn't even good for your own soul and it provokes backlashes it means that you alienate
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the potentially winnable moderate religious people for example who would be more than happy with
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marriage equality more than happy with legal equality but don't necessarily want their five-year-old
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kids at school being told that there's no such thing as men and no such thing as women and that
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there's no you know everyone can do whatever they want you know maybe I think that's a great idea
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to teach kids but I want to live in a society that's diverse enough where people can object to that
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without being handed out of town and told that they have the blood of trans children on their hands
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for example let's create a society that is capacious enough where the public square is ram
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punctious enough for lots of us to articulate lots of different ideas and sometimes those will be
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ideas that sound a little bit homophobic maybe not everyone wants to bake the gay wedding cake
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maybe that human being who doesn't want to bake the gay wedding cake has a right to exist too
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has a right to be part of our culture part of our society there comes a point at which you've scored
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enough on the board that you don't have to be so damn defensive about everything all the time
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there comes a point at which your sense of victimhood becomes a little bit of a cudgel
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and becomes a little bit of a sort of self masturbation project where we're all sitting around
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in the circle jerk congratulating ourselves on how oppressed we are we're not that oppressed
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anymore my grandmother was wrong to carry that wound for her whole life but she had an excuse for it
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she was run through Europe hounded every day by the Nazis she was allowed to be sent crazy
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what's our excuse what's our excuse for insisting that we still live in a world that is so
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irredeemably filled with anti gay hate that we need special days weeks months
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to assert pride in something over which we had no control
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the world's a big place the ideal of the rainbow is great live and let live
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I was born whatever way I was born you were born whatever way you were born
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people are raised with different ideas people are raised with different attractions
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people are raised with different storylines of who they fall in love with and who they don't
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I think it's necessary to be shoving things down everybody's throat
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just to assert our right to exist I would love to see a world in which in a few decades time
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that 15 year old high school jock feels liberated to be able to data boy or data girl
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without ripples of gushing conversations sweeping through the whole school of like is he or isn't he
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it'd be nice if he didn't feel like going one way or the other meant opening up a whole pandora's
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box of identity issues and you can only do that by undermining the whole concept of identity
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and that means undermining the whole whole concept of community which is why I made light of it
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earlier about having Saturday afternoon tea and drinks I'm not a member of an LGBTQI plus community
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I'm a man who's married to a man who has his own individual story and yes this is all coming from
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a place of privilege I'm privileged to be white I'm privileged to be male but more than anything
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I'm privileged to have been born in a rich country more than anything I'm privileged not to be
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really ugly or really short there's lots of privilege that we all should be thankful for
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and rather than pointing out the privilege of other people it'd be nice if we just had a little
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bit more graciousness about the privileges with which we were born even if we do happen to be
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a woman of color I mean you were born in a rich country presumably I think we can turn the
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dial down a little bit on the culture wars on the identity wars and hopefully create a culture
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in which it's less about are you a member of this tribe or that tribe do you tick this checkbox
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or that checkbox and more a culture of okay you're the 15 year old jock now you're dating a guy
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two months later he's dating a girl and that's fine whatever gets his rocks off he's totally okay
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as long as everyone's cool with it as long as it's all consensual it doesn't have to mean that he's
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hopscotching between different identities or different communities or that he suddenly has to
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dress a certain way or go marching down Oxford Street in Sydney on a giant inflatable penis
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before you go you will enjoy one more clip from my husband Sean's podcast it's the very last
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question he asked me you're prepared in some way shape or form but for the kid for the Josh the
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13 year old 12 year old Josh who's just going through life and feels isolated confused because he
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doesn't fit into a box that the world wants to fit him and what is your advice to that small to that
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young child I mean I think it sounds like such a cliche but be yourself like really honor the fact
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that you have a right to be here what's hard in your teens and not just with sexuality but with
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everything is that the universe seems like it's been designed and coordinated by a bunch of people
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who knew what they were doing and it may not have a place precisely for you so you're trying
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on a bunch of different clothes and abundant and seeing how you might fit into this cosmos and
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I'm saying cosmos it might be as small as your little community or your town or your school but
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that's what it feels like it feels expansive and endless and daunting and I think the challenge
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of your teenage years is to make friends with the fact or come to the realization that most people
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get in their late teens are early twenties that actually the whole world is just made up by people
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who have as little idea of what they're doing as you do and we create our own way and we build
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our own networks and friendships out of trust and companionship and love and collaboration and
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intelligence and reason and your job is to assert your own unice in a way that shines
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brightly enough that it attracts other people and that it's appealing and fulfilling for you.
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There is no pre-cut Josh Seps whole in the universe that has to make itself available for you
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like you sort of have to do that and that takes a lot of ignoring what other kids your age think of
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because I think the surest way to lead an unhappy life is to behave according to what you think
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other people are gonna want you to do and the surest way to be happy is to not be emotionally
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bothered by what other people think of you because people I mean the world around you is
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completely out of control so the the the path to happiness is to locate as much of your focus
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on your fields of control as you can and what other people think and how other people judge you
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and what circumstances happen to you in your in your life you know all of the all of that
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extraneous stuff that happens to you or that you could acquire is ultimately gonna amount to a
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huge pile of dust at the end of the day what is gonna be lasting is your own sense of yourself
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and the connections that you make with other people so that's all a big long wind way of saying if
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I was 13 year old Josh now you know yeah I would just say you have a right to be here you're as much
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a part of a part of the universe as the as the sun and the moon and the stars so so go get them
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we're ending on that because I know I can't go and say anything that's gonna make this conversation
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better we would have just been sitting and talking about this at home anyways but thank you for
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coming in and talking to me about this we were rolling tape so those are my two cents about pride
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this is probably the the least impressive version of the a cast audio pride parade sorry a cast
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I know that I'm you know probably not the ra ra ra voice that that you wanted but maybe a
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little bit of diversity is good in this day and age for more uncomfortable conversations subscribe
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to this show where we interview the likes of Sam Harris Ion Hersey Ali Richard Dawkins Jonathan
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Hyatt Eddie is David from Justin and Marsh Norm McDonald rest in peace so many people it's time
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to pass you over to the next stop on the a cast audio pride parade hopefully someone more on board
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with it than this disgruntled boob you've just heard you'll be traveling to New York this time to
33:58
the podcast trust and believe the Sean T uncomfortable conversations is produced by Stefan
34:08
posthuma follow me Josh leaps on twitter and instagram for all the latest may your day be fruitful
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your mind humble your enemies generous and your conversations perfectly sparklingly
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collectively uncomfortable