Latest / 1 to 100 / E28: Making tough decisions with Tomer Tagrin

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E28: Making tough decisions with Tomer Tagrin · 1 to 100

0:00
What's that art behind you? What's the what?
0:03
The art that's behind you. Oh, it's actually a good story.
0:07
I need to hang up. We, we used to have like in our
0:10
last fundraising, we used to make fun with investors that
0:13
despite our Unicorn valuation, we're building a Flamingo like a
0:17
real animal, a real business. And so it started as a joke on
0:20
humility and it became like the the out of the design studio did
0:25
like a bunch of stuff back then in NFTS and it became like the
0:28
content frame of our culture if you want.
0:31
And so we give it to people in the Orleans.
0:34
We used to have a game that ask questions and you can win some
0:38
of the posters of the Flamingos. But yes, they are pretty.
0:42
Cool. They were awesome.
0:43
That looked fun. It reminds me of the.
0:44
What was it, the apes? Yeah.
0:47
The apes like a take off on the apes and this was our internal
0:50
jokes on the apes. Yes, yes.
0:53
I feel like everyone knows someone who bought one of those
0:55
apes. Yes, everyone want.
0:59
I wonder what's happened with the apes now.
1:01
Actually nothing. I'm not probably guess.
1:04
It's I mean. Millions of dollars back then.
1:07
Nothing. Nothing.
1:07
Wow. Yeah, yeah.
1:12
I mean, they should have made flamingos, I guess, like a real
1:15
a real business. You know what I mean?
1:17
I I hear that that's in style again all of a sudden.
1:24
You know what's funny? I'll share like a really quick
1:27
Flamingo story. Also, Eli, at one of the events,
1:31
you guys had a booth and they had like a bunch of little toy
1:34
flamingos. So I took a couple of them back
1:36
home for my kids because my daughter was, her classroom is
1:40
named the Flamingo Classroom at the time.
1:44
So it worked out super well, yeah.
1:47
Yes, it's an old oven, like a Flamingo, right?
1:49
It's it's pink. It's like a colorful.
1:52
Yes, yes. Yeah, hey man.
1:56
So I I mean, do you have some general context on the pod or?
2:02
A geek research or something it's like a over cool what you
2:05
guys are doing and be very happy to, I don't know, share help and
2:11
thoughts, you name it. But yes I think I have like a
2:14
general sense and but feel free to guide me as well.
2:19
Amazing. Yeah.
2:20
I mean, the thing that I thought was so interesting that I was
2:24
excited to explore with you was like what strategy frameworks
2:31
you guys thought about as you made the decision to focus on
2:40
the the sort of reviews platform and loyalty.
2:44
And you said something in the pod with Sean that I thought was
2:48
totally under explored, which was focusing on AI enablement in
2:54
the enterprise. And I think too much of the
2:57
attention was focused on what you decided to not do as opposed
3:01
to what you decided to do. And I thought that was a huge
3:05
missed opportunity because I thought all of the real insight,
3:08
of course, when you decide what to do, there's the things you,
3:12
there's things you have to say no to.
3:13
That's like what strategy is. But I think it was totally
3:18
underappreciated what you guys decided to do.
3:21
And so I was hoping we could sort of start with that as the
3:26
like big backdrop. Like what were you seeing?
3:30
And therefore, what did you decide to lean into?
3:34
Well, first I'll say that we the first thing is that we weren't
3:38
good enough meaning like I think the first sense was like, I
3:43
think we made like a lot of progress specifically more on
3:46
SMS and e-mail were starting to pick up.
3:49
But we felt that you can't really build a we at least won't
3:54
be able to really build like what we think is like best in
3:58
class software or or innovate to the market.
4:01
I think maybe retrospective our mistake was we didn't have a
4:06
like entering like an existing market.
4:08
We should have come with like maybe something more extreme or
4:11
more different. Like basically we were preparing
4:13
to try to build some kind of what they Claver released
4:17
recently like the autonomous marketing, but we needed to get
4:21
the foundation 1st and we just couldn't execute on everything
4:24
in parallel. And then when you talk to
4:26
customers, you just feel like underwent by how their feedback
4:31
in general. I also think SMS is is becoming
4:36
a different channel for brands a bit.
4:38
They are segmenting more all the regulations.
4:42
Verizon is increasing by the way the the prices soon.
4:47
So the channel as its whole became less lucrative.
4:50
And then So what do we want to do?
4:52
And maybe with the recent announcement, it's, it became
4:56
more evident. But for us, like Argente
4:58
commerce and AI is like something we really wanted to,
5:01
to explore. I can tell you even for me,
5:04
despite the fact that airport is a big company, I always, when I
5:07
interview executive, I always tell them that in spite of my
5:10
title, I'm like, not, yes, I'm the CEO, but I'm much more the
5:13
entrepreneur than the CEO. And so I much rather build in
5:17
areas that we I feel that we can innovate and bring something new
5:21
to the market. And in reviews, I really think
5:24
like the market is completely changing.
5:25
You're going to see us like continue releasing, like the the
5:28
way users writing reviews, reading reviews, the importance
5:31
of reviews in an LM first world. All of that is completely,
5:35
completely changing. We also like want to build full
5:39
blown and a set of tools to help brands be more visible at their
5:44
ends. That's like an area that you're
5:46
always gonna like very much lean into loyalty.
5:50
I think like loyalty, it's always like a an interesting
5:56
category, right? Would have Jeremiah bought
5:59
because of the loyalty program or regardless of the loyalty
6:02
program. I think your mentality is
6:05
something that we really want to solve.
6:07
And in your point in general, I think that another thing that a
6:10
lot of like keys and social is being missed.
6:13
A lot of the output customers are not just pureplay D2C.
6:17
So a lot of them are selling on retailers.
6:19
A lot of them are like offline online and there's like a wide
6:23
range of solutions that we need to do a better job at to really
6:27
help them with like their Omni channel needs.
6:29
So we are working now with a few more retailers.
6:32
I hope we can announce soon. We launched like Target,
6:36
Walmart, we offline like point of sale is becoming like a very
6:42
big deal for us. That's like an idea.
6:44
So it's we have like a lot of stuff and we thought reviews are
6:48
changing and we want to lead that second loading.
6:52
We we feel that we have a lot more to accomplish and NLM
6:56
discoverability agenticommerce is an every time person is very,
6:59
very passionate about. I think it's going to be like a
7:02
big shift. Like I think it's a real deal.
7:05
It's not like the apes and we want to do some bets and we just
7:10
couldn't bet on too many things with our delivery.
7:13
So we said, OK, we want to focus and just for everyone to
7:16
understand it was like a massive change in your point.
7:18
The in the mindset that's for us, like before the change,
7:24
e-mail and SMS were like the growth engine.
7:27
So now all of a sudden we need to like do like a very big
7:30
mental shift and use like a very different mental model.
7:34
Maybe for many, many of our leaders of our employees even
7:38
like this is one of the reasons we we want to change so deeply.
7:44
Like let's say now AI even inside the auto and leave aside
7:48
the product of them all, like the poison is in a tricky place,
7:51
right? On one hand, we're exactly the
7:53
companies that are not AI native and on the other hand we are big
7:58
enough. So we have like millions of
7:59
lines of codes. So the transformation to really
8:02
become like a leaner, smaller company, it's a huge task.
8:06
It comes from like how do we change the finance team, how do
8:09
we change the marketing organization, the CSMS, The say
8:13
is like, it's like a big journey that we are really, really
8:17
investing into. And I think that, I don't know,
8:20
you probably get once in a lifetime opportunity to really
8:23
transform something that big. And how I told investors, in a
8:27
weird way I find like I find a lot of passion for it.
8:30
I want to see what it means for you to really transform.
8:34
And so that's our task that we signed up for now.
8:38
And yeah, but it was like a massive mental change, I can
8:41
tell you internally. That mental change.
8:45
I've, I've never like, you know, stop servicing a product that,
8:50
you know, people were using. And I'm assuming like this one
8:52
was like probably pretty large. And I'm curious, like when you
8:55
like, what did you not expect when you decided to stop
9:01
servicing a product? Like if I was ever thinking
9:03
about stop serving, servicing a product, is there anything that
9:05
like, you know, caught you off guard or, you know, was it
9:08
easier than you ever thought, like?
9:10
So my joke internally before we announced was I feel like we
9:13
invade Normandy. We have like a list of like 1000
9:16
action item communication. How do you migrate customers,
9:21
technical staff, finding the right partner.
9:24
So first, I think like if you really do right by the customer,
9:28
most of them, of course, the one that let's say migrated like a
9:30
month before to our e-mail, like wanted to kill me.
9:34
And that's like totally obvious and it makes perfect sense and
9:37
it's a very painful experience, but we really tried like we
9:40
literally kept still till today keeping people on the payroll
9:45
that the entire job is to make sure that migration is extremely
9:47
smooth. When we look at like all the
9:49
partners we are working with, we need to make sure that it's
9:53
going to be like a very, very good process.
9:56
And I think customers saw we really care and partners saw
9:59
that we really care and we really try to be as authentic as
10:03
possible. And I don't think one thing that
10:06
maybe surprised a few people, I don't know, it was like many
10:10
agencies, which agencies are having a tough time, like try to
10:14
say, hey now, like we will help you with the migration and try
10:18
to like bring leads to them, which was I think a bit
10:23
surprising to some of the other people.
10:24
But overall it was actually better than plan.
10:29
I don't know if you can call it like that, but it was extremely
10:31
well planned. I'm talking like one of the the
10:34
the biggest of our like I don't hundreds and hundreds of like
10:37
human hours went to like that segment of customers and how to
10:41
build behind the scene, the data migration.
10:43
So customers wanted to do that and BFCM is coming.
10:46
So who needs to move before BFCM, who is after BFC?
10:49
It was like a very big pen. So I can tell you it's like it
10:53
just takes up maybe the only tip I can give you that if you ever
10:56
do that, invest a lot of time from a customer point of view to
11:00
think about it. And that's like the probably the
11:04
only important thing. I'm curious, I, I saw, sorry, I
11:09
don't remember the, the details of this, but I saw that you're
11:12
launching like was it Yapo Labs or something to that effect?
11:17
I'm curious how that fits into all of this, because obviously
11:20
you're simplifying. Focus and that's not a new
11:21
product. So so how it fits, it fits in in
11:24
two ways. I'll give you like the the out
11:27
facing way and the in facingness.
11:30
So first, as I mentioned, I'm the entrepreneur, so I drive
11:33
everyone crazy. And I think in Europe we have
11:35
like too much innovation, right? We launch, there's a new startup
11:38
we launch to allow brands to have two days free shipping
11:40
called Ocean Josh. We inside the products and I'm
11:44
driving people too much crazy. We need like more focus in
11:47
general. So one of the things we did is
11:49
just like I have a team of like 5-6 engineers reporting to me.
11:53
So I won't drive everyone else crazy.
11:55
So that's one thing internal reason, external reason is again
12:00
in a gente commerce. I think like YOPO is a company
12:03
that will continue building more and more products and will try
12:05
to help brands. But AI is like going to
12:08
dramatically change and we wanted to create like a
12:11
different setup because in YOPO, right, we have sprints, we have
12:14
Okrs and it's we need something very differently to go from zero
12:18
to 1 because just like we needed a different operating
12:24
environment if you want. And we did like an AQUI hire of
12:28
like a small team in the CDP world.
12:32
And we took like one of the founding team member theirs and
12:34
gave him like a lot of room to operate and a lot of budget to,
12:39
to really build the team and to go and try to build a new
12:41
product. Hopefully we're going to launch
12:42
it in months and months and a half.
12:46
Very much yeah. It's not an existing category
12:49
and something that we think is going to be very important to
12:51
the future. So the internal reason, a lot of
12:53
it is like a different operating model that I won't drive people
12:56
great, but also for them to operate differently.
12:59
I don't care about sprints. I don't care about like all
13:02
chaos and all of that, unlike like products that have like a
13:06
50 plus $1,000,000 for revenue that needs like a very different
13:09
operating event. Yeah, I think Tomer, there's a
13:14
bunch here that I really want to dig into, especially for other
13:19
SAS like CEOs and founders. One thing you said in in the
13:24
first part, which was like, Hey, I, I wanted to like I'm the
13:30
entrepreneur and, and you're saying this a lot like I'm the
13:32
entrepreneur, but I also have this job which is CEO and.
13:37
Unfortunately, yes, there's there's a joke I tell with the
13:40
board. Yeah, unfortunately, I'm a
13:43
founder. That skate.
13:45
That's the internal joke. Yes, yeah, yeah.
13:48
Well, you have a great CEO, so that must help.
13:53
Yeah. The the thing that I was the
14:02
thing that it made me think was I don't know if you've heard
14:05
like Owen McCabe talk about the transformation he took intercom
14:10
through or great air amazing or or the one about air table and
14:19
like the transformation that they're going through.
14:22
And when you hear, when you hear like these stories, it really is
14:28
only the founder that can like, say, you know what, I'm going to
14:31
take this massive amount of ARR and I'm just going to like put
14:37
it away. Actually, I'm, I'm just going to
14:39
like hit delete on this like huge amount of ARR in order to
14:43
reimagine the company. Because AI means that what
14:47
everybody expects is now different.
14:49
And so there are components that are like, like we're talking
14:53
about when you have a strategy, you have to say no to things in
14:56
order to say yes to things, right?
14:59
The secondary part of that, which you're talking about from
15:01
an operating model standpoint is about for lack I.
15:06
Some people like these words, some people don't like founder
15:08
mode, like going founder mode. You have to sort of get back
15:12
into the details and actually really drive things that are
15:15
going to actually move the boat so that way people can feel the
15:18
change. When you thought about that for
15:21
yourself, who did you talk to and who do you talk to now as
15:27
like an intellectual counterpart to like make those shifts
15:31
because the rest of the organization is like, they're
15:37
not who you can talk to about the things you need to think
15:39
about. So who do you talk to when
15:41
you're trying to think about those changes and how to think
15:43
about those changes? And like all the trade-offs that
15:46
you have to make, who who's the peer group that that makes those
15:50
kinds of decisions easier? So in the management, we have
15:54
like let's say 5-6 people that I usually consult with on, on
16:00
pretty much everything. And you know, for me, we have
16:03
like a very experienced CFO that's been through that a few
16:07
times. We have like a Safo, COCMO, head
16:11
of engineering. So we have a few of those
16:14
people. I also have like a few other
16:17
people outside like so some of our board members, it's one like
16:21
we have like Adam from Bessemer. He's like unbelievably, he's
16:25
also like it very much. Think about the future.
16:29
Also, Shopify is a large investor.
16:31
So in Shopify, I have like a probably some better
16:35
relationship with some of their executives, actually their CFO
16:38
Jeff and like a great person. And now another person, Glenn
16:43
that left, but you still need product and he's to talk with
16:47
him a bit on product. Also car now that moved to
16:50
design, spend some time with him on like Shopify's way.
16:56
Who else? Like I have like 2 bankers that
16:58
I talk to, surprisingly that they're not fit to be bankers,
17:03
but they are actually good. And, and in general, I think at
17:08
least for for me, it was the understanding that when you talk
17:12
to customers and your son that people became too big too fast.
17:16
I'm not doing my job correctly. I'm not enough in the weeds.
17:20
I became too much of a big manager.
17:22
And your point needs like a cultural shift because all of a
17:25
sudden you, you, you, you're talking to people or you're
17:28
asking. I also did like a so I met like
17:30
150 customers and I interviewed like 70 of our employees across
17:34
the company. And you see a lot of them are
17:36
talking about the mediocracy. Yeah.
17:39
Then it's OK. I have to change it dramatically
17:42
because I don't want to stay in that kind of a company.
17:45
And I think, yes, the found the right has like a huge
17:47
superpower. You have like all the context
17:50
and you probably have like the moment you understand that you
17:54
have like literally nothing to lose is like a great moment,
18:00
right To actually you're freeing yourself from a lot of chains
18:05
that are not like a real. And of course you need to create
18:08
alignment and you need to like get people like rally behind.
18:13
But for me, they are like, I don't know, between probably 5
18:17
and 20 people in youthful that if it makes sense for them, it
18:22
gives me like a lot of confidence that this is probably
18:25
like the right thing to do. And these are people from like a
18:28
wide range of things. So I don't know.
18:33
It's not on life is too short to to to not do that.
18:38
So I'm like, I'm always coming at it.
18:41
But this perspective and and I think yes, having that, the
18:45
culture that's on one hand like humble enough to to say, OK, you
18:50
know what, we're actually not that great here.
18:52
We have to change and the courage to actually change that.
18:55
That's like a great combination. You have I'm going to try to
19:00
find the right way to ask this, but you have competitors where
19:05
the CEO is not the founder anymore, for example and well
19:13
actually Jeremy, yeah, I'm, I'm curious, Jeremiah, how how you
19:15
would think about this for yourself, right.
19:17
But you have competitors where the founder is not the CEO or
19:20
sorry, yeah, founder is not the CEO or CE OS like someone else
19:22
who was brought in and I know some of them who are at the
19:27
larger scale again, I don't want to name names.
19:30
They're finding it very hard to abandon their existing things
19:35
basically because the revenue scale can can be quite high and
19:38
things like that. It how would you think about
19:44
like that's just, you know, one set of examples, but there's
19:47
lots of these types of situations like with your
19:52
entrepreneur hat on, do you think those companies are
19:54
basically just doomed to slowly deteriorate over over time?
20:00
And like, what is your recommendation for situations
20:04
like that essentially? And and then the attached
20:08
question is. Can, can a higher CEO ever have
20:12
the permission that the founder CEO has?
20:15
Because you said something very interesting.
20:16
You said I have nothing to lose, but guess what?
20:20
A higher CEO, I'm not sure if that's true.
20:23
And so I, I, I wonder, I wonder how you think about that.
20:27
Yeah, so first, I'm not good in predictions like the prophecy is
20:31
given for the full, so many things that they thought are
20:33
going to be right apparently got wrong and vice versa.
20:37
But I think that it really depends on what you optimize.
20:41
There was like right the Frank Stellman, probably the best
20:43
hired CEO in the world. If you haven't read his book,
20:48
phenomenal. I recommend it to like any
20:50
operator and me, I actually bought it to all of our
20:53
management. So I think it really depends.
20:56
I think yes, if it's like AVC back, phone investor back or
21:00
public, it doesn't matter who you invest or have and you have
21:03
investors, you need to really make sure that your investors
21:08
are with you. Like one of your posts biggest
21:10
when we did like a deep SWOT analysis, one of our strengths
21:14
is our investors in the ball really like they give us like a
21:17
lot of room to operate. And actually I had a
21:20
conversation with like yesterday, yesterday, it was 2
21:23
days ago, one of the most famous Shopify SAS company CEO called
21:28
me and asked like a bunch of stuff on how to navigate that
21:34
eventually, like just have like a different ball dynamic.
21:37
And I think like you, you really need to get that really, really,
21:41
really in order. And I think like a hired CEO, it
21:45
depends what they're optimizing for.
21:47
Maybe they're optimizing for, I don't know, to, to, to finish in
21:51
2-3 years. I can tell you we have like one
21:55
of our largest competitor that has like many CE OS that got
21:59
replaced. Like, I mean, many, many, many.
22:01
And I know a few of them throughout the years, you know,
22:04
they came for like something different.
22:06
They came to like a maybe try it after it doesn't work.
22:09
We're going to go to the next company.
22:11
For me, odd boy is like, besides my kids, probably my biggest
22:14
life project. So I don't know, like I care
22:18
deeply. Like I think I care more and
22:21
because I care more, like you try to do the hard thing, like
22:24
the easy thing is not changing, right?
22:26
And I don't know, I'm continuing as is.
22:29
So I think it's just like AI don't know.
22:31
Hired CEOs probably have like a different person.
22:34
Maybe you should do an episode with a higher Jeremiah.
22:36
You should. I wouldn't call you higher CEO
22:38
because you are a founder, but people that are doing that for
22:41
like a job, right then maybe they're coming at it from a it's
22:44
an interesting point. Like also an interesting point.
22:48
When should you hire ACEO? If whatever, right, that's like
22:52
another. It's a great discussion and I
22:56
was participating in multiple times, but I think like founder
23:01
LED, yes, it's a, it's a very different mentality.
23:08
So I don't know, I don't know if I gave a good answer or not, but
23:11
I don't know how to think about the psychology of fares CEOs.
23:18
Just real quick on the subject, I, I think you're right
23:20
tomorrow, like I'm about, I am a hired CEO in the context of
23:23
stamped, but I have no which I started and I think I bring a
23:28
different mindset even to stamps than what was there previously
23:32
with somebody who hadn't been a founder.
23:35
And that's not to say I'm there's a lot of things I'm
23:39
learning. I don't have all the context.
23:41
There's a lot being the founder of a company is different than
23:44
being a founder that comes into a company.
23:46
But I do like, I think for me, what I, I, I'm very clear on
23:51
what is expected for me to deliver and, and the context in
23:54
which I operate. That's a, running a profitable
23:57
business. There's a profit margin, there's
23:59
profit margin targets, there's profit dollar targets, there's
24:02
those kinds of things. If I understand that, then I
24:06
have full freedom to do whatever needs to happen in order to make
24:09
that keep going up over time. And then I can apply my founder
24:13
mindset to that situation. And in the context of what we're
24:17
doing at Stamp, that's a lot of resetting things, a lot of
24:20
saying no to things, a lot of like, how do we like
24:23
essentially, yeah. Coming in, there's a lot of
24:26
foundational things that have needed to change that I didn't
24:29
even realize needed to change six months ago.
24:33
I'm having the same thing at your point.
24:35
Trust me, same thing. Well, yeah, you were talking
24:38
about you build to a certain scale and and we're I think
24:40
we're probably about a tenth the size you are probably both in
24:43
terms of, you know, revenue and an employee count.
24:46
But it's still 50 people that I have.
24:49
And like, even just in that 50 ish people, like redoing a, like
24:54
changing the way you operate is extraordinarily hard to do.
24:57
It's not a, it's not something that just happens overnight.
25:01
And so I can only imagine, you know, what it looks like in your
25:03
context. But but yeah, I think you are
25:05
right that there's probably the difference between like just
25:08
coming in to manage something that already exists and keep it
25:10
like operating versus I'm coming into this from a standpoint like
25:14
I, I have my own career goals and minds and I know what I want
25:17
to achieve and what I want to build.
25:20
And I saw this as a way to accelerate that from was a year
25:26
ago, not as a way to just like chill for a couple of years and
25:29
make more money, if that makes sense.
25:30
So. I mean, realistically aren't all
25:33
of like founding decisions purely based around whatever
25:36
like the incentive is on on the table and then whatever time
25:40
horizon that you're applying to that incentive, like the way
25:44
that you operate is, is pretty much with with within that,
25:47
right. So it's like if you're already
25:48
to come in and just like it was like APE owned company and just
25:53
like extracted much profit, you would like act 1 certain way.
25:55
And it doesn't mean that CEO would be the same way if like
25:59
they were injected into a different, you know, situation.
26:01
So I feel like it's like much more predicated on like the game
26:04
board that you're like playing in.
26:06
And it's just like, more likely that Aceo that was hired is
26:10
coming into a very specific type of a board that isn't like, oh,
26:14
you need to like, think about how those company survives over
26:16
like the next 20 years or something like that.
26:19
And like, they probably, like, in their heart don't really care
26:22
about that in a lot of ways. Whereas like Tomer, you probably
26:25
care a lot about that, right. So yeah.
26:29
Makes sense, yeah. Yeah, Tomer, yeah, I guess I was
26:33
wondering one of the one of the takeaways it seems like you had
26:39
was that the biggest opportunity is not necessarily in the
26:44
Shopify ecosystem per SE. And specifically Shopify US is
26:48
what it felt like. There's like a lot of
26:51
opportunity international you were actually talking a lot
26:54
about in retail. So like, I mean, we can say
26:59
Shopify POS is like in person shopping, but I, I think like
27:03
I'm starting to hear like, Hey, people shop and much more like
27:08
there's a much more expensive ecosystem in, in retail than
27:12
just sort of the thing that most people talk about, which is like
27:15
Shopify D to C in the US, but there's this like massive space
27:19
around it. And and not not to say that
27:23
Shopify USD to C isn't like amazing, right?
27:26
I'm not, I'm not trying to say that.
27:27
I'm trying to say that there's like we, we get fixated on the
27:30
one thing and then forget about the other thing.
27:33
What when, when, when you think about that and you think about
27:37
that other opportunity that's like less discussed?
27:42
I guess I have two questions. One is why do you think it's
27:44
less discussed given its size and scale?
27:48
And then the second thing is when you hear people say
27:51
eventually Shopify is going to own everything anyway, how do
27:55
you react to that? Because like you can basically
27:58
make the case that like, hey, they're just going to keep
28:00
expanding out into the rest of the universe.
28:02
And so you just like attach to the thing that's expanding out.
28:04
So I guess how do you interact with both of those ideas?
28:08
Yes. So first, I I think Shopify is
28:10
probably one of the top five. I don't know when software
28:16
companies of our generation of the last decade.
28:18
So anything like I would never underestimate them in a in a
28:22
very big way. And probably Toby has a crystal
28:26
ball somewhere. But it's like it's extremely,
28:29
extremely impressive the way they're able to execute.
28:31
And therefore, like it's being discussed more because it's more
28:35
interesting. And before I move to like the
28:37
social sphere, but like analysts, right, like you
28:40
wouldn't cover like a senseless commerce club, like what still
28:43
is about to cover too much to write or Adobe commerce shop now
28:47
going to B2B like that Chomfa is much more interesting, much more
28:52
innovating, growing. So I think it's definitely like
28:56
the the the ecosystem that of the future.
28:59
And I think specifically in the Shopify ecosystem, right, like
29:02
the buyer persona, the the SAS vendor, the agency are like, I
29:08
don't know, 25 to 45. They like social.
29:13
So they like to like overreact and social a lot more.
29:16
A lot of like our customers are outside of the social sphere.
29:21
Like they don't even know many, many things that everyone on
29:25
their D2C Twitter knows. So I think that's also
29:28
important. So it's like other and I call it
29:31
an ecosystem, but those buyers are all all, they're all
29:34
different and they don't, they just don't spend so much time on
29:38
social. And I think social eventually
29:41
it's probably like magnified like many, many things, but it's
29:45
not like the entire universe, not the entire ecosystem.
29:48
I can't tell you how many times some of the best darlings of D2C
29:54
Twitter came to us to acquire them.
29:57
And the business is doing like horror, horror.
30:00
And there are many companies. And let's take one of my friends
30:04
that probably no one is talking about them enough globally that
30:08
went public, right? If you would look at D26 really
30:10
you thought of like globally is what like a $5,000,000 company
30:14
and not like a $4 billion stock, right?
30:17
So I think that's also really important to to remind.
30:22
But social does matter like because I do think like on the
30:28
on the Shopify ecosystem, it matters a lot.
30:33
And also Shopify, it's also like a big world.
30:35
There's like right, the higher end of the market, the lower end
30:37
of the market, probably very different type of ecosystems.
30:42
So I think that's the first thing I think for us, no, I
30:47
don't think like Shopify will eat all of commerce.
30:49
I think that will never happen. I think there are other
30:52
opportunities and also like for SAS founders that are hearing
30:57
that are building for commerce, it's, it's really important to
31:00
understand that Shopify is the larger town, but the more
31:03
competitive town by nature. So it's, it's a really good
31:08
thing when, when you're thinking if you want to build where you
31:11
want to build because yes, maybe it's like smaller town, but
31:15
again, much less competitive, much pricing is very, very
31:19
different. And so there's a lot of other
31:21
things you, you, you need to think of and that you should
31:25
take into consideration specifically as you scale.
31:28
I may probably mean the first ten, $20 million a fare are
31:32
probably like a mistake to go outside of Shopify.
31:35
But after that, and also we have customers that have like both,
31:40
like they have like AI don't know instances of Shopify, but
31:44
instances of outside of Shopify. So it can be both or even for
31:48
youthful, we have many customers that are migrating to Shopify
31:51
that were previously youthful customers.
31:53
You know how much they value that, that they can actually
31:57
migrate and you know, so it's it's a big thing.
32:01
And again, it's a big ecosystem. Specifically when you look
32:03
outside of the US, despite the fact that Europe is the fastest
32:07
growing region of Shopify, still Europe is very bifurcated and
32:12
the east is very bifurcated. And yes, there are edge cases
32:15
that are not even edge cases. There are cases that are
32:17
different. They next, I'll give you an
32:19
example of a phenomenal customer follows EMA Kiage, one of the
32:23
best run companies, a public company, phenomenal brand.
32:27
They're launching mobile. They have like 150 engineers.
32:31
They love it like they have data science team.
32:33
They will never be on Shopify, not because Shopify is good or
32:36
badge of its phenomenal problem. That's how they operate their
32:38
business. And I know many founders that
32:42
they like to, they like to be closer, they like to develop
32:47
more and maybe they make a mistake, maybe not, but that's
32:49
how they build their business. So specifically as you scale, I
32:55
think it's like Uber important to be outside of Shopify.
32:59
I think like the, the margins are different, the go to market
33:02
is different. And many companies that are not
33:04
preparing for themselves for that day, let's say when you hit
33:07
those dozens of millions of dollars, if they are, it's, it
33:11
will catch up to you at some point or not, because on Shopify
33:14
you will have competitors. I don't know any category that
33:17
then again, let's put Clay view as truly an exception of the
33:21
rule real exception. Any other category you will have
33:25
competitors, you will fight on price.
33:28
Yes, D2C brands don't have a lot of loyalty to the vendor.
33:32
It's more loyalty to like price and their efficiencies.
33:36
So you will you will have some kind of like price
33:41
deterioration. I don't know any category that
33:43
doesn't have that. So one way to like on your your
33:49
profit margin or your gross margin doesn't matter is to also
33:56
go outside of Shopify. Yeah, I, I was just saying that
34:01
we actually see every, every day I see people switching off of
34:06
off of Shopify to something like a Woo commerce or a big commerce
34:10
too. So like that does happen.
34:11
It's not as common as the other way, but that that is still
34:13
happening and will probably always happen.
34:17
And then the other thing that I think is really interesting and
34:19
tomorrow you probably see this as well.
34:20
Like the reality is the Shopify ecosystem is the best developed
34:25
ecosystem, the most innovative ecosystem in the e-commerce
34:28
space. And so actually the competition
34:31
is a lot lower in those other ecosystems.
34:35
There's actually not as many options.
34:36
Like if if you are on big commerce and you want a loyalty
34:39
program, there's only a couple of options.
34:41
And like in our context, our big commerce loyalty integration is
34:47
not good enough to be honest. But I think it's like, I think
34:50
you guys have one and we have one and that might be it.
34:54
I don't know. I haven't actually looked into
34:55
the big commerce ecosystem a whole lot, but there's not a lot
34:57
of options. And so it is easier to be
35:01
competitive in those spaces. Not that you want to have an
35:03
inferior product, but you actually don't have to have the
35:05
same level of product to compete in some of these other category
35:09
or. For us to be honest, it's more
35:11
price issue like in and like that's the main issue.
35:17
We tried to do like product, we really tried for for the
35:20
experience to be the same, not always successful, but really,
35:23
really trying. But yes, like the world is is
35:27
like a it's different than what we see on the, I don't know, on
35:31
just the Shopify ecosystem. And again, look at the film,
35:35
look at the globally look at like other example of like
35:38
really successful companies that a lot of the river most of the
35:42
revenue is outside I think reviews.
35:47
Is such a exciting category because I, I think that maybe
35:52
like in the word reviews, it sort of semantically locks in
35:55
your interpretation of what that means.
35:57
But you mentioned earlier that the way that shoppers are
36:00
leaving reviews and making purchases is changing.
36:04
And I think we all see it. People create video reviews now,
36:07
right? And those video reviews are so
36:09
powerful, they replace advertising and they are
36:13
advertising in places like TikTok shops and Amazon,
36:16
absolutely similar now. So how is Yopo changing for
36:20
that? Yeah.
36:22
So actually video transforming your views to like ads is
36:25
actually a project we now actually built with a few better
36:29
customers. It's one of the things we might
36:31
release in our views products soon.
36:33
And so definitely another thing is like we, we did already
36:37
released like a kind of a, call it smart prompts, like an AI
36:41
system that helps you write more quality content that we know
36:44
will convert more and will be more discoverable in the
36:46
Netherlands. And soon you're going to see us
36:48
like releasing like a Rufus type of an experience.
36:50
If you're familiar with Amazon's Rufus, like the reviews agent
36:54
that on the PDP page, it's not like a sales agent.
36:57
It's more about a reviews agent that you can just ask questions
37:00
and based on the reviews, it gives you answers.
37:02
So that's another thing it's happening.
37:04
And we also tried to use Gen. AI in general to other
37:07
capabilities like AI translations.
37:10
So we have, I'll give you an example, IKEA is a customer
37:12
field for, right? So we deployed around like 49
37:16
countries and how do you translate really, really well
37:19
across like AI summaries and stuff like that?
37:23
Before Gen. AI, it was like impossible to
37:25
create driving insights alerts through.
37:29
Now the Gen. AI can do that and go over the
37:32
content much faster. And we have at the same in your
37:37
that we say like no one, no user ever read review #1207.
37:43
But you know who does ChatGPT? And so now that also like
37:47
becomes really, really important.
37:49
And the reviews are just saying like great product or I hate it.
37:53
I'm like, OK, but now that valuable is like something
37:56
that's so how do you go on quality?
37:58
And what does even quality means?
38:00
So it's actually like a big world that I rethink in the
38:04
review space after many years of a bit of stagnation of
38:07
innovation, is now giving it like a new Dome.
38:12
Right, there's so much in the space of generating reviews,
38:16
right? From demand generation right to
38:21
utilizing those reviews, right, Whether that's on your website
38:24
or it's in your advertising. I feel like it's such a big
38:26
space. It's always evolving, yes.
38:29
I think it's massive like I there is zero way we will build
38:35
all of the things we want to build in the next five years.
38:37
And I'm sure you feel the same way somewhere.
38:39
Like just like all the things that have opened up with Jen AI,
38:43
there's so much capability and none of it's really been built
38:46
yet, to be honest. Like it's very like very early
38:48
stages of what's possible. There's there is so much there.
38:51
So yeah, I think, yeah, it has been a very stagnant category
38:55
from my perspective, but it feels like there's a lot that's
38:59
going to open up here. I was just looking at Mary Ruth
39:01
Organics and then I saw the same Shopify app on The Ordinary and
39:06
it was video reviews like embedded into the website.
39:09
And obviously, like, you know, there's a bunch of different
39:10
apps for this, but it struck me as like, this is the way that
39:15
it's moving. And I think that those video
39:17
reviews were embedded from TikTok, so they weren't like
39:20
host on the website, slowing the website down.
39:22
So it's looking, I was thinking this is this is really good.
39:24
I want to read a text review right?
39:26
Yes, video is a is a big medium now for reviews 100%.
39:33
Yeah, I tell me, you were saying something else earlier that I
39:36
think is like really under discussed because most
39:41
businesses don't cross 10 million of ARR.
39:44
But there is this like really big change in how you have to
39:48
operate your company once you hit 10.
39:51
Because like you said, and I'm not trying to belittle going
39:53
from 1:00 to 10:00, I've gotten into plenty of trouble for doing
39:57
that in the past. But it's kind of easy to do
40:01
that. Like 0 to 1 is extraordinarily
40:03
easy, one to 10 is kind of easy in past 10 is like.
40:07
Painfully difficult actually, because you have to like do
40:12
different things, right? Like you can do one thing and
40:15
hit and hit 10 roughly right? Like you can like on Shopify
40:21
within that category, you can like hit 10, right?
40:25
And then you have to like go to new places that requires
40:28
different go to markets, things like that.
40:30
When when you guys were first doing that or when you first
40:33
experienced that, what is your view of like how you thought
40:40
about your team structure and like which parts of your team
40:45
you needed to augment replace? Like how did you think about
40:50
that as you as you went to like different areas which required a
40:53
different go to market motions? Yeah.
40:56
So first, I'll just say to you your previous comment to early
40:59
comment in the output, it was never easy.
41:01
Not the zero to 1, not the one to 10.
41:03
It's for another 10 to 100, not 100 plus.
41:06
It's really, at least for me, for us, it was me because I'm a
41:10
first time founder, every stage was like it was like really,
41:16
really tough. And for us, like I'm just giving
41:18
an example, you can say when we started, there was no
41:21
competitors. So before I was just starting,
41:24
we had like a free product for like 3 years.
41:26
We didn't even know how to monetize.
41:27
We never what SAS is like. It took us like we know any, it
41:31
was like very, very difficult for us.
41:33
And then from 1:00 to 10:00 we did so many mistakes that we
41:36
said, OK, churn is time to happen at around $7,000,000.
41:39
What do we do there? What's churn?
41:41
And so for us it was like a learning experience every stage
41:45
and it's, it was tough. I think today it's some in some
41:48
ways, probably going from zero to 1 is easier because the
41:52
market is bigger. Like the time is bigger.
41:55
I, I want the other hand, I don't know how companies are
41:57
doing distribution today. It's it's probably tougher than
42:01
definitely when I did the the one to 00 to to 10, I think for
42:07
us like $10 million started to feel like a grown up company all
42:13
of a sudden, like you, I remember like your phone never
42:16
had a job and I was like, what do I need a job?
42:19
If a manager is a good manager, what do I need a job?
42:21
Like what, what to recall, Let the manager do that and
42:24
remember. Like it, it was a certain, we
42:26
were like probably 70 people, 60 people, 80 people remember.
42:30
Like someone told me, like, man, you need to stop.
42:31
Like we need a childhood. Like it's too much of a mess.
42:35
Or I, I, I, I learned that not everyone understand what's going
42:40
on this month. And I'm like, what do you mean
42:42
you don't understand what, like this is what happened.
42:45
It's fine. And you start getting the
42:46
realization that, OK, it's a company, it's people, blah,
42:49
blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.
42:51
And so for us, it was like multiple cycles of replacement
42:56
of management of how to walk. And to be honest, I think the
43:00
oppo this today, we could do a better job.
43:03
I can tell you this year, part of the change, we decided to go
43:07
much deeper on OK Rs. We'll see how that's going to
43:10
go. But we went very, very deep this
43:12
time on go K Rs as a framework to to really help us.
43:17
And that's a trickling down to the last person in the auto.
43:22
I think we were always that was also one of our problems better
43:27
than right. We were very good on go to
43:28
market in the sense that the sales were like if you talk to
43:32
customers that tell you what was too aggressive because the sales
43:36
were like very, very good CSM as well.
43:39
It took us like time, but it's, we became like, we fell in love
43:43
with the mechanics of go to market if you want for a sign
43:47
for and, and I think it's a, you know, it's tough.
43:51
It's a Toby. I think, I think I heard Toby
43:53
one time talk about it that every stage of the company, it's
43:56
like a, it's like a, it's like a kid sits in the room with a dark
44:01
room. You don't know how to get out.
44:02
You want to get out. And then you, you find the door
44:05
knob and you won't find, but you don't know how to open the door.
44:09
And then you open the door, you move to the next room, which is
44:12
bigger, but then you all of a sudden it's also dark and now
44:15
you need to find the door knob again.
44:17
So I just think it's like an ever ending thing.
44:21
I can tell you one of our board member, he was ACEO and ACEFO of
44:25
the company. I'll describe you the company
44:28
metrics. Like 4 years ago, they were
44:31
doing $2 billion of ARR. They were doing like 40% profit
44:37
margin and growing at 50%. That's like, right, That's
44:41
heaven, right? That's how heaven for SAS sounds
44:44
like two years after they were shrinking, burning money, like
44:49
all hell breaks loose. And it's like, what the hell?
44:53
And the company goes and they feel like they're not
44:55
successful. And he's talking to me and he's
44:58
like, yeah. And I'm like, man, what do you
44:59
mean you're not successful? You got to the heaven.
45:02
You're the heaven of SAS. You are successful.
45:05
And I think it just shows you that.
45:07
And that's the very hard things you do.
45:09
That's what I try to do in meditating is that try not to
45:12
drive your happiness from like outcomes, just like fall in love
45:16
with the process. And it's such a tough thing to
45:18
do, but I don't know, you just try to do it because it's, it's
45:23
a never ending, right. Maybe the only thing I'll say is
45:26
liquidity. I think that is something that
45:30
does change and it doesn't matter your form of liquidity.
45:33
It can be an exit, it can be your whatever your profits, it
45:37
can be secondary. It can be what about like
45:39
liquidity does change your life outside of work?
45:43
But I can tell you I know founders that it's really at
45:47
such different scales and I I know it sounds like crazy, but I
45:52
don't know how many times founder talk to me like I'm a
45:55
successor. I'm Phoenix, the imposter senior
45:57
because we had such a shitty quarter and I see, I see the
46:00
product and I don't know, like something is so off that I feel
46:03
like I'm such a failure. And so I just think it's like a
46:07
constant grind and just take take care of liquidity.
46:11
Maybe that's the only thing I can tell that really changes
46:14
your life. What's the what's the way that
46:18
you get people through those various stages of the journey?
46:25
Right. Yeah, not all of them can.
46:28
Like Jyoto is a company. I always say because I'm like a
46:31
not a great manager and I'm like a first time founder.
46:34
It's like I cannot mentor you. I just can't because I don't
46:38
know how to do your job. So I can I can help you.
46:42
So you need to hire like senior people and have like people to
46:44
grow up in certain areas. I really try to, for each one of
46:48
my leadership, I really tried them to have like an advisor or
46:52
a mentor that can compensate that has that experience.
46:56
I found that's been really, really helpful and just to keep
47:00
people with like a growth mindset.
47:02
And when I mean growth mindset is always trying to improve.
47:05
OK, what did we learn how we can get better And not to take it
47:09
personal, like everyone is fucking up, everyone is doing
47:12
mistakes. And just if you build a culture
47:15
that it's fine, I think, and a culture that and eventually what
47:19
is cultural is the people you hire and how you make a decision
47:21
and what you tolerate. So, yeah, you tolerate mistakes,
47:25
but you don't tolerate people that are not growing that making
47:29
those mistakes or keeping those mistakes And and just try to be,
47:34
I don't know, as empathetic as you can try to have fun.
47:37
I think that's your point is such a tough company.
47:40
Like every time someone like I now today had like a a meeting
47:45
with someone that, you know, was seven years with us and he
47:49
decided to leave his opening his startup.
47:52
He's one of the most exceptional people that we had.
47:54
Like it hurts when he is living super shops and my first thing
48:00
we like he needs time to like, I don't know, decompress.
48:04
Like it's so tough, right? It's so like intense.
48:07
It's like it's not easy. I tried selling to commerce
48:10
brands. It's so tough.
48:12
It's so tough to get everything right together.
48:14
And I think you need to like help people as much as possible.
48:18
Understand that not all of them can see through.
48:23
It can't happen. And then like, I don't know, try
48:29
to hug them as much as you can and try to help them as much as
48:34
you can. I can tell also because of my I
48:37
had like medical cancer like shit in my life.
48:40
It gave me like a very different perspective, like really, really
48:43
changed and like what's important, what's not, No one is
48:46
going to die here. This is why every time that I
48:49
see on Twitter people take commerce so seriously, I think
48:52
to myself like and wanted great because mean this mean these
48:56
people didn't go through like a big trauma in their life.
49:00
So good for them. But like God, I scared not don't
49:04
take it that seriously. No, no one is the devil.
49:07
No one is trying to do bad. People are doing mistakes and
49:10
thank God it's like not cancer here.
49:14
It's a different spectrum. So I don't know.
49:17
Also to remind on perspective is important and when we going
49:22
through all of that, I don't know that's it I think.
49:27
Where did you land on the other end of that?
49:29
What is important to you now? The most important?
49:32
Easy, easy. For me, it's easy.
49:34
I have a scan every six months. So every six months I go to the
49:38
same doctor, to the same room that the same guy that sentenced
49:41
me to death and he sentenced me to life.
49:44
You know, they teach it as like heaven and hell for me to the
49:46
same place, 73rd and 1st, like Memorial and Sloan Kettering,
49:51
God and the devil, same person, his name is Andrews and it's my
49:54
oncologist. So for me, every time when I sit
49:57
in those scans, my kids, the first thing 'cause I was already
50:01
in a place that I wrote like letters to my kids, I started to
50:04
prepare videos. And so it was like a very dark
50:07
places. It was for my kids, the most
50:10
important thing, my wife, my, my health, like mental and physical
50:15
health. I'm a person out of like
50:17
exercise every day, ice bath, meditate.
50:20
I'm like severe PTSD on that front.
50:22
Like I don't eat barely anything.
50:24
My wife hates, hate going to restaurants with me because of
50:27
that. But so just other things.
50:30
And also on the opposite side, 1 is like to really see people
50:36
grow and like build their career.
50:38
I want the top people that you have to be rich to get liquidity
50:42
for them. For me, it's like really, really
50:44
important. And because I think that changes
50:47
life. What else in you?
50:51
Also we, I try to, you have to be a platform to, to held back.
50:56
Like again, think about it, we have like 100 and 5200 people in
50:59
Israel. That's I won't go into the
51:02
entire like Middle East fuck up and shit show, but we have like
51:07
employees that doing reserve 200 days a year, 250 days a year.
51:12
They're going through like hell. So how do you help them?
51:15
How do you help their wives? How do you help their kids?
51:19
We have like an organization that we've from the last six
51:22
years have been donating. It's called Girls Inc in the UK
51:25
that for girls that have like AI don't know, for lack of a better
51:29
term, we're born to like less than lucky life than the most of
51:34
us. So I think those types of things
51:37
try to do and try to help, but it's first and foremost for me,
51:42
my kids, my wife, my immediate body and mind are the most
51:48
important thing by mind. But I'm saying I also tell you
51:51
like a good story. When the cancer came back the
51:57
second time, we were going public, so we were already in
52:01
the IPO process. We had bankers, I was teaching
52:05
investor and you can go public with like a six CEO.
52:09
So we stopped it. Like it was like a huge thing,
52:11
like a huge disappointment. And I felt so guilty as everyone
52:16
saw liquidity. You can think about it like
52:17
people woke their asses off for years and now we can because
52:21
Turner is sick. When I came back, the market
52:25
crashed. Thank God we're not public.
52:27
It was like a complete different thing and I remember we had the
52:31
board meeting and we went on the board meeting and again first
52:34
board that I'm coming back. My partner, my Co founder says
52:38
like this is a challenge. Again, remember like markets
52:41
crashing, it's the end of ecom yada yada yada.
52:45
And I say why it's an opportunity and he says
52:48
challenge opportunity. So we finished the board
52:50
meeting. Once the board meeting one of
52:52
the board members called me up saying man how do you all so
52:54
optimistic? What the fuck?
52:56
Like everything is so bad, like what's going on?
52:59
And I told them, look, you're talking to a person that I don't
53:03
know. 4 weeks ago, couldn't take a shower because he has a main
53:07
line connected here. So I barely didn't take like a
53:09
regular shower for like, oh, I didn't sleep on my stomach.
53:12
I sleep like a baby. I still sleep on my stomach like
53:14
a kid. I couldn't sleep on my stomach
53:16
and now I can. So what?
53:18
Because the market is going bad and we have like whatever, $100
53:21
million in the bank and we would figure it out.
53:24
I don't know yet how, but that's not like a bad thing.
53:27
That's like OK, like put it in the right frame.
53:30
So I think for me, getting to perspective is much easier
53:33
because of cancer now. I actually use it a lot.
53:35
I try to get back to those emotions that you actually
53:38
scared to losing your life. It's a very different thing, I
53:42
think for people that weren't in trauma.
53:45
Thanks for them. Try to find like what helps you
53:48
with perspective. But I can tell you with anyone
53:51
in my senior leadership, I think at least I don't know, 20% of my
53:55
one on ones is like, how do they care of them?
53:57
Take care of themselves to make sure that they're not
54:00
overwhelmed. Because life is too short.
54:02
Too short to take this stuff seriously.
54:05
Or too seriously, maybe. This is amazing, man.
54:10
This is. Yeah.
54:11
This was amazing. This is a really fun
54:13
conversation. Tumor.
54:16
Yeah. It's cancer.
54:18
I can talk for hours man. It's like part of money.
54:21
PTSD as well. I I've heard you talk about this
54:24
a couple times in the past, listen to some podcasts and
54:26
stuff and I just want to say I really appreciate your
54:28
perspective. Thank you.
54:29
Thank you, man. I really tried that.
54:31
Other people will learn from the trauma as well because it
54:34
profoundly changed my life. Really.
54:36
That's profoundly changed why I am as a human being.
54:40
Yeah, yeah. Well, hopefully people are not
54:43
taking E com SAS too seriously that would you know so.
54:48
I can tell you don't finish with like because I need to go, but
54:52
like two years after we started the odd poll in entry.
54:56
I won't mention the name because maybe people will know, but one
54:59
of our investors introduced me to a very successful he wasn't a
55:01
SAS, he was an E com operator that was back then very
55:05
successful raised money and he committed suicide and he left
55:09
three kids alone. Why?
55:11
Because on BFCM, all the money he raised, he invested in ads
55:16
and basically on every dollar he spent, he made like 0.6.
55:19
And when he figured that out, he couldn't deal with that in
55:22
literally. And I met his wife and I met one
55:25
of his kids. And they say like, so no, I hope
55:28
no one takes not ECOM, SAS, ECOM operators, no one takes it too
55:33
seriously. Wild.
55:38
Yeah, yes, All right, man. Well, enjoy the rest of your
55:42
Friday. And I, I really hope you're
55:44
helping like founders and if there's any founders I can help
55:47
with SAS, like, feel free to hit me up.
55:49
I think it's, you do like a great job, really.
55:52
Kudos. Thank you.
55:53
Thanks man. Thanks man.
55:55
See you. Bye.
55:55
Bye.