Latest / Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby / Want More Friends But Dread the Effort? Here’s What Actually Works | Happiness | E562

Transcript

Want More Friends But Dread the Effort? Here’s What Actually Works | Happiness | E562 · Love, Happiness and Success with Dr. Lisa Marie Bobby

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: You might not trust the world around you or trust
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: people enough to jump into relationships or even want to
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: or desire to have relationships. Some people choose to be
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: alone because it's much safer than getting traumatized again or.
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: Here's an uncomfortable truth for a lot of people.
• 0:29
  Speaker 1: I think we all desire to have more friends and
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: an active social.
• 0:34
  Speaker 2: Circle, healthy relationships, the people who love us. but don't
• 0:52
  Speaker 2: actually love the work that it takes to cultivate that
• 0:57
  Speaker 2: beautiful social garden.
• 1:00
  Speaker 1: People are always searching for a place to belong and
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: feel understood and have community and feel accepted. I think
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: the challenge is that like a lot of modern communities
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: are built around status rather than like a genuine connection.
• 1:17
  Speaker 2: Well, the good thing is that there's actually a middle
• 1:20
  Speaker 2: path and you do not have to turn into the
• 1:23
  Speaker 2: life of the party extrovert in order to have more
• 1:25
  Speaker 2: healthy connections in your life. And by the end of
• 1:28
  Speaker 2: today's episode, you're going to get some new visibility in
• 1:32
  Speaker 2: how to make good new friends as an adult, not
• 1:36
  Speaker 2: just in what you do on the outside in the
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: world connecting with people, but also the work that needs
• 1:41
  Speaker 2: to happen on the inside in order to get you
• 1:45
  Speaker 2: where you want to go to a more vibrant life
• 1:48
  Speaker 2: with better connections. My guest today talking with us about
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: this and sharing her expertise is none other than Dr.
• 2:05
  Speaker 2: Suzanne Wallach. She's the founder of SoCalDPT. She has been
• 2:10
  Speaker 2: a guest on Call Her Daddy and SheMD, and now
• 2:14
  Speaker 2: she's here today on Love, Happiness, and Success to share
• 2:18
  Speaker 2: her perspective with us.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 2:21
  Speaker 2: Suzanne, as a psychologist, a marriage and family therapist, so
• 2:26
  Speaker 2: excited to hear your perspective.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: Thank you for having me.
• 2:30
  Speaker 2: We have a similar background. You have a doctorate in psychology,
• 2:33
  Speaker 2: clinical psychology, but you're also a marriage and family therapist,
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: which I think is an interesting blend of understanding clinical
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: and mental health and development, but with the systemic relational
• 2:45
  Speaker 2: pieces that can sometimes get missed.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: Thank you.
• 2:50
  Speaker 2: I'd love to hear just a little bit more of
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: your thoughts around Why so many people are so lonely
• 2:58
  Speaker 2: right now? And just, you know, especially adults, it can
• 3:01
  Speaker 2: be such a struggle to build a beautiful garden of
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: meaningful friendships from acquaintances to besties. What is getting in
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: the way?
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: It's true. I mean, I do think the number one
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: thing is that people are spending too much time on
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: their electronics. And so the world now has We just
• 3:23
  Speaker 1: live in a different world.
• 3:25
  Speaker 2: Ring the doorbell on somebody without calling.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: You like go outside and interact with people in order,
• 3:32
  Speaker 1: you know, and people are constantly now and you don't
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: even have to go to the grocery store anyway. You know,
• 3:37
  Speaker 1: it's funny. My dad will come to visit and he's like,
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: my dry cleaning gets picked up and delivered. The groceries
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: get delivered. Like, I mean, he's just like, you don't,
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: you never leave the house for anything. Like it's, he
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: thinks I'm crazy. And I'm like, yeah. I actually haven't
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: been to a grocery store since COVID. Like I just
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: don't go anymore. I think that's one thing, but I
• 3:57
  Speaker 1: do notice a lot of my patients talk a lot
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: about feeling loneliness, especially when it comes to, especially females
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: when it comes to forming friendships. And I think that
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: COVID had a lot to do with it because people
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: became really isolated during COVID and a lot of friendships
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: fizzled out and a lot of people moved and a
• 4:18
  Speaker 1: lot of people became more isolated during COVID. And then
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: I also think after COVID, depression skyrocketed, anxiety skyrocketed, and
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: people's struggles with mental illness really became a lot more
• 4:33
  Speaker 1: prominent and people became much more homebound. And so I
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: think that's had a huge impact on people's loneliness and
• 4:41
  Speaker 1: also social anxiety skyrocketed after COVID. I mean, we had
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: so many people coming in after COVID that sort of
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: had like this like re-entry trauma that kind of were like, I,
• 4:55
  Speaker 1: you know, especially people that had been single or weren't
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: able to be with their families during COVID that were
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: kind of in their apartments alone, especially in the beginning
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: when you couldn't be around anyone, if they didn't have
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: a partner or they didn't have a roommate or, you know,
• 5:09
  Speaker 1: didn't have family to be with, people who really had
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: so much re-entry anxiety and previously weren't socially anxious that
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: became really socially anxious. And then work also became hybrid, right?
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: Which used to be a huge place where, I mean,
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: I remember like in my twenties, work was where I
• 5:28
  Speaker 1: met all my friends. Yeah. Like I got, I went
• 5:32
  Speaker 1: to work and that was where I met people and
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: we all went out together. And so work has also
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: become hybrid. And so a lot of people are work
• 5:38
  Speaker 1: from home now. And so I just think there's been
• 5:41
  Speaker 1: this kind of perfect storm between social media and between COVID.
• 5:47
  Speaker 1: And then also the world has just become so much
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: more polarized in a lot of different ways, politically and
• 5:53
  Speaker 1: other ways, that it has contributed to people feeling a
• 5:58
  Speaker 1: lot more isolated.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Over the last five, six years, however long it's been,
• 6:03
  Speaker 2: the trend is that people are really becoming like untethered.
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: from other humans, like we don't need them anymore, right?
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: I don't need to talk to anybody to get my
• 6:12
  Speaker 2: groceries or whatnot, right? So there's that part, but also
• 6:15
  Speaker 2: the ability to stay connected through these little screens that
• 6:21
  Speaker 2: are not the same and combined with people starting to
• 6:27
  Speaker 2: feel strange and awkward around other people because they don't
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: practice as much, but also... in a world where people
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: are getting stranger and more dangerous when we do go outside,
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: that there's a lot of reasons to be like, no,
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: I'm done. But you think that that's compounding this impact
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: of feeling lonely, but that it's threatening in a lot
• 6:51
  Speaker 2: of ways and we're out of practice. Yeah.
• 6:53
  Speaker 1: I mean, the world is, well, at least in my opinion,
• 6:55
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's scarier than it was. I mean, I
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: think pre-COVID and also, I mean, you know, we can't
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: forget about AI. Like it really just blows my mind
• 7:06
  Speaker 1: that people are like, Oh, when I get lonely, I
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: just talk to.
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: He always laughs at my jokes.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: I just talked to her. I sit and I'm, and
• 7:15
  Speaker 1: you know, I'm like, Oh my gosh. Like, you know,
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: that's terrifying to me. It's like, cause you know, you're,
• 7:22
  Speaker 1: you're talking to an agent that is actually taught to
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: speak to you in the way, in a way that
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: reinforces like everything you're saying. And, You know, people are
• 7:31
  Speaker 1: even going to chat to UPT now, I'm sure, as
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: you know, for therapy, which is even more terrifying.
• 7:36
  Speaker 2: We have to do this.
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: Therapy.
• 7:38
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you.
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because it's not therapy because AI is taught to
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: reinforce everything that you're saying. And so they're not really
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: giving you therapy and they don't know the license. They
• 7:48
  Speaker 1: don't know the laws and the ethics of each state.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: But I also think, yeah, AI has also entered the picture.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: And so, right. And I think, I mean.
• 7:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it is kind of a scarier, more polarized world
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: than it used to be. I don't think people feel
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: as safe with other people. Yeah.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: There's also people that you're seeing who may identify as
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: being somewhere on the borderline personality disorder spectrum. Although I
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: think technically we're not supposed to call it that anymore, but, but,
• 8:24
  Speaker 2: you know, really feeling that they can become very dysregulated.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: They may have a very complex trauma history. They don't
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: feel safe with other people, there's like that push-pull desire
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: for connection, but also a no stay away. I think
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: that we know that there can be a spectrum, right?
• 8:42
  Speaker 2: Some people feel that a little bit and some people feel.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: That a lot.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: But how do you think that plays into that experience
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: of loneliness that is becoming more and more pervasive and
• 8:55
  Speaker 2: how difficult it can be to establish, especially new, deep, enduring.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: Healthy relationships? I think they are working on changing the name.
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: It's a horrible name. But I always tell people it's
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: borderline personality disorder is really just attachment trauma. That's all
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: it is, which is much easier to swallow than that
• 9:13
  Speaker 1: horrible name. But I think when you suffer from emotion dysregulation,
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: whether it's a personality disorder or it's depression or it's
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: anxiety or, you know, PTSD, it affects your ability to
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: trust and be vulnerable because that usually affects you know,
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: that doesn't come from nowhere. That usually comes from having
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: experienced relationships either in your childhood or in your past
• 9:39
  Speaker 1: that were unsafe or where you were disappointed or where,
• 9:44
  Speaker 1: you know, you came out of it with a negative
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: belief about the world around you or about yourself. Then
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: it makes perfect sense that you might not trust the
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: world around you or trust people enough to jump into
• 9:59
  Speaker 1: relationship or even want to or desire to have relationships.
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: I mean, some people actually choose to be alone because
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: it's much safer than being vulnerable with someone and getting hurt. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
• 10:17
  Speaker 2: Well, and I think that I've heard you say elsewhere,
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: and I thought this was so interesting. And this is
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: one of the things that I was excited to talk
• 10:24
  Speaker 2: with you more about, you know, that this idea, right,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: that relationships can be so fraught, for sure, and that
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: this is being amplified for so many reasons, because societal
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: structural things, and that a lot of the old spaces
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: where we used to go for friendship, it could be
• 10:44
  Speaker 2: you know, a church, a workplace to your point, running
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: around your neighborhood, bowling, bowling leagues used to be a thing, right?
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: Like those are just eroding. And that one place that
• 10:55
  Speaker 2: can feel safer and more accessible in some ways are
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: actually these, these like clubs, these organizations, you know, like
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: a fancy supper club or a, type of organized thing
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: that has a membership fee and there's like an application,
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: you know. So can you talk a little bit about
• 11:16
  Speaker 2: what you've observed happening in that space and how it
• 11:20
  Speaker 2: seems like it is meeting a need or is it?
• 11:23
  Speaker 2: Because I can also see that coming with a different
• 11:25
  Speaker 2: set of problems.
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I think like fundamentally humans just like are wired
• 11:30
  Speaker 1: for like that feeling of belonging and just evolution or
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: evolution wise, being part of a group, right? If we
• 11:39
  Speaker 1: look back to caveman years, like being part of a
• 11:41
  Speaker 1: group and increased our chances of survival. So we're wired
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: to want to be part of a group and to
• 11:46
  Speaker 1: be part of a pack. And so that same like
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: biological need hasn't disappeared in 2026. It just kind of
• 11:53
  Speaker 1: presents itself differently. So whether it's a book club, a
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: running club, you know, a fitness community, a ballet class
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: or an exclusive, you know, beach house in Malibu. I
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: think people are always searching for a place to belong
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: and feel understood and have community and feel accepted. I
• 12:16
  Speaker 1: think the challenge is that like a lot of modern
• 12:19
  Speaker 1: communities are built around status rather than like a genuine connection.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: You know, some people can end up kind of on
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: the outs or not being able to get in. So
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: I try to encourage people to do things more that
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: are sort of free, like maybe like a book club
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: or affordable, like a running club or things like that,
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: unless you can afford it, something that has a very
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: expensive membership or that is a status symbol. Yeah.
• 12:49
  Speaker 2: No, I could, I mean, I have heard, this is
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: not part of my life at all, but that, you know,
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: even just to join a country club, it can be
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: hundreds of, with S's, hundreds of thousands of dollars, you know,
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: just as a basic entry level, if you're in, then
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: you have to pay like, I mean, it's ridiculous, but,
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: and you're saying that there are other ways to start
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: to get a similar experience, right? To join a club.
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: But what do you think it is about joining something
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: that is easier for people than, I don't know, in
• 13:29
  Speaker 2: the wild encounters with potential new friends?
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: I think it depends on your personality. I sometimes think
• 13:35
  Speaker 1: joining something to some people can feel a lot more intimidating.
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: But I do think if you have something you like,
• 13:41
  Speaker 1: like I remember I always use ballet as an example
• 13:44
  Speaker 1: because like I did ballet from the time I was
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: three until I was like 19. And then I went
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: back in my early 30s thirties and ended up going
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: back almost literally seven days a week. And those actually
• 13:58
  Speaker 1: ended up being all of my, they became all of
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: my best girlfriends that ended up, some of them were
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: at my wedding and I still am in touch with
• 14:06
  Speaker 1: some of them and I still take ballet to this
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: day and I'm 49 now. So I still try to
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: go like two or three times a week and it
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: has enriched my life in ways I just couldn't even
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: begin to. And they're still in class with me. And like,
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: we've now been friends for, you know, over 10 years.
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: And so I think having that community has enriched my
• 14:28
  Speaker 1: life so much that it is something I really encourage
• 14:30
  Speaker 1: people to do. Like if you can find, if there's
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: a language you want to learn, or, you know, I
• 14:34
  Speaker 1: have a patient who just joined a book club because
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: she was so into reading and she's really enjoying that.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: And she's in her late twenties and she had moved
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: to a new city. And like, that was kind of
• 14:45
  Speaker 1: her way to try to meet people was to join
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: a book club. And so I think if you're someone
• 14:49
  Speaker 1: who is not intimidated by going into a room where
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: you don't know anyone or going into a room like,
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: you know, in ballet, like I hadn't been in ballet
• 14:58
  Speaker 1: in forever and I definitely wasn't going to be wearing tights.
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah, no pants.
• 15:04
  Speaker 1: Then that can be, you know, because you kind of
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: have to like use some what in DBT we would
• 15:10
  Speaker 1: call opposite action to fear to walk into a room
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: where you know nobody.
• 15:13
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 15:14
  Speaker 1: But I think that can be really great because you
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: can meet a bunch of people at once. You know,
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: I have another patient I'm thinking of that started taking
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: painting classes. And because I think if you can meet
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: people of common interests, that's really where it's at. Like
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: you're going if you're you know, if you love to
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: paint and you go to a painting class, you're probably
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: going to meet like minded people. Yeah.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: I'm also thinking as you're talking, the proximity and repetition
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: is a big part of how relationships organically are formed.
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's a reason why everybody's best friend when
• 15:47
  Speaker 2: they were a kid live next door to you is
• 15:50
  Speaker 2: because that is the specific kid that you saw every
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: day that was at the bus stop that you walked
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: home with, right? And so just to put yourself in
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: an environment where you have the contact with people, there's
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: that familiarity. I also love what you're saying though. And like,
• 16:04
  Speaker 2: So many of these things, you could totally go to
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: places and not have to talk to anybody. I recently
• 16:09
  Speaker 2: signed up for Pilates and there's like nice people you
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: say hi, but I don't necessarily need to talk to
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: any of those people, largely women, but I could, right?
• 16:20
  Speaker 2: And so there's that optionality that might feel safer too. Yeah.
• 16:26
  Speaker 1: I'm thinking actually of a patient of mine that like
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: she goes to Pilates and like She has made friends
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: with some of the women there, but sometimes she goes
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and she doesn't talk to anyone and she can just leave.
• 16:38
  Speaker 1: And then sometimes she goes and sometimes she'll go get coffee. Yeah.
• 16:44
  Speaker 1: She has the option. But through repetition and going every week,
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: it's just inevitable that you will get to know people.
• 16:52
  Speaker 1: When I tell my clients that are trying to get sober,
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: if they're going to 12-step meetings, if that's the way
• 16:56
  Speaker 1: they're trying to get sober, if you go to the
• 16:58
  Speaker 1: same meetings every week, it's inevitable that... some point someone
• 17:02
  Speaker 1: is going to speak to you and talk to you,
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: you know, because you're showing up at the same time
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: every week. So through that repetition, you're bound to meet someone.
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: Someone will talk to you at some point. Yeah.
• 17:13
  Speaker 2: This is so great. And so we need to pause
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: here to take a super quick break, Dr.
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: Suzanne.
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: But on the other side of this, I would love
• 17:21
  Speaker 2: to hear some of your thoughts for friends here with us,
• 17:24
  Speaker 2: part of this conversation, who might be feeling ambivalent right
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: they might be experiencing some of it's like they're feeling
• 17:33
  Speaker 2: lonely right one part of them would maybe love to
• 17:36
  Speaker 2: have more friends or people to go places with but
• 17:38
  Speaker 2: there's this other part you know that the work involved
• 17:42
  Speaker 2: feels kind of exhausting the fact that they do have
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: to put themselves out there that as we have said
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: people can be very weird can we speak to that
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: on the other side of course to a better place
• 17:57
  Speaker 2: we will have so much better days we together live
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• 19:27
  Speaker 2: wanted you to know that I could not have done
• 19:30
  Speaker 2: this without Shopify. They make it so easy. Shopify's pre-built
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: website themes and AI site builder makes it absolutely effortless
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: to launch a beautiful, professional-looking store without ever touching a
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: line of code. And they can even help you connect
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: with dropship vendors so that you can fulfill orders without
• 19:49
  Speaker 2: personally Thank you so much for watching. Go to shopify.com
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: slash LHS today to hear your first cha-ching. Thank you,
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: first of all, so much for making a little bit
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: of space for our valued sponsors. This show could not
• 20:21
  Speaker 2: happen without them. So thank you on behalf of me,
• 20:24
  Speaker 2: on behalf of them for giving it a listen. And
• 20:26
  Speaker 2: we are back with Dr. Suzanne Wallach. We've been talking
• 20:30
  Speaker 2: about how to establish healthy new friendships at a community
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: as an adult and some of the reasons why this
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: can feel hard. Just before the break, Dr. Suzanne, I
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: asked you to think about what the experience is like
• 20:45
  Speaker 2: for someone listening who might be genuinely ambivalent. They like
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: the idea of having more relationships, but they just kind
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: of like, want new, ready to go, best friends who
• 20:56
  Speaker 2: love them and would do anything for them, but have
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of ambivalence about all of the micro steps
• 21:02
  Speaker 2: and pitfalls involved in actually establishing that, like growing the garden.
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah. The radical, like genuine truth is that like best
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: friends like don't exist.
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: No, except for Claude.
• 21:16
  Speaker 1: So I think you have to really like check the
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: facts on that one. Like, yes, that would be great if,
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: they would just pop up out of nowhere and you
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: could have very deep, meaningful relationships. And I don't think
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: those exist. Like action is required. You have to leave
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: your house. You have to meet people. And it does
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: require effort on both people's parts. And so if you're
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: not someone who's super extroverted or who is feeling ambivalent,
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: I guess what I would say is, have some curiosity
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: about your ambivalence and goal is I really want to
• 21:54
  Speaker 1: have close friends, but there's this sort of like dialectic
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: of like, I want to have close friends and I
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: don't want to take the action to do it. I
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: would be curious about like, what is stopping you and why?
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: Because if the goal is I want to have close friends,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: like what are the behaviors you need to engage in
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: to do that, you know, and what's getting in the way.
• 22:14
  Speaker 1: And if you don't want to engage in those behaviors, then,
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: in dbt we would focus on what's getting in the
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: way of you engaging in those behaviors is it fear
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: is it is it shame is it and then we
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: would try to get you to take like opposite action
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to those things so opposite action to fear might just
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: be like hey like today maybe just like go get
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: a coffee at starbucks and say hi to someone or
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: or it might just be like sending a text message
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: to an old friend and being like hey how are
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: you doing i've been thinking of you there's very simple
• 22:48
  Speaker 1: steps we can take to reconnecting with old friends, too.
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: It doesn't have to be new ones.
• 22:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And that can be easier sometimes, too.
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times.
• 22:55
  Speaker 2: And, you know, it was funny, and I want to
• 22:57
  Speaker 2: mention this, that just during the break, you and I
• 23:01
  Speaker 2: were talking about how, well, we were sharing that we
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: are probably good examples, both of us, of just differences
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: in fundamental wiring when it comes to an interest in
• 23:15
  Speaker 2: in talking to strangers. I don't know about you, but
• 23:18
  Speaker 2: I probably identify more on the extroverted side of the equation.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I have weird hobbies. I want to sit at the
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: bar and I'm like, hi, talking to people on each side.
• 23:27
  Speaker 2: I love that. It's fun for me. My husband though,
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: he's like, why would I talk to.
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Anybody, right?
• 23:34
  Speaker 2: You know, I mean, and there are real differences and
• 23:37
  Speaker 2: those tend to be pretty stable, right? They're part of
• 23:41
  Speaker 2: the big five personality traits, this introversion, extroversion continuum, and
• 23:45
  Speaker 2: how it's okay to handle this differently based on who
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: you are and not feel like you have to force
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: yourself to show up in the world in a way
• 23:56
  Speaker 2: that is really fundamentally incongruent to your natural wirings.
• 24:01
  Speaker 1: I would consider myself like I can go either way.
• 24:05
  Speaker 1: Like there are times when I like have no interest
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: in speaking to strangers. And then there are times when
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: like if someone interests me, I will talk their ear off.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: And my husband talks to everyone. Like, I mean, he
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: knows every single one of our neighbors and I'll talk
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: to a stranger at the grocery store and like, you know,
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: I'm not that person, especially if I've been at work
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: all day talking. But I definitely like, if I want
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: to get to know someone and find someone interesting, like
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: I have no problem walking up to strangers and talking
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: to them and being like, I want to be friends
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: with this person. But I don't have a problem being extroverted.
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: I don't have a problem walking into like a party
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: by myself where I know no one or things like that.
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: But I do think if you push yourself to do
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: things or try to become something you aren't comfortable with.
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: If you're an introvert who is saying like, I inherently
• 24:53
  Speaker 1: want to be an extrovert, that's just going to create anxiety.
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: And probably I think you have to be mindful of, well,
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: if I'm inherently an introvert, like that's actually okay. What
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: we have to figure out is how much extroversion can
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: I handle? Maybe I'm And now they have this new
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: term for like ambiverts. I think that's what the term is,
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: where it's like a person who's like kind of an
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: introvert and kind of an extrovert, but they just have
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: their social battery runs low. And so I have a
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: client that we've talked about working on mindfulness in her
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: body of really noticing when she's out, like when her
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: social battery runs out, she's like, I got to go home.
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: Instead of forcing herself to stay out and then being
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: mentally exhausted for two days, forwards and feeling like she
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: just doesn't want to talk to anyone. And so I
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: think a lot of it also is just like genuinely accepting, okay, well,
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: I'm an introvert and there's nothing wrong with that. I mean,
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: there's a lot of great things I think about being
• 25:53
  Speaker 1: an introvert. It means you're able to sit with yourself.
• 25:56
  Speaker 1: It means you're good with being alone. I mean, a
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: lot of people are totally incapable that being able to
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: be by yourself and sit with yourself is a really
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: important quality. So I think there's a lot of great
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: qualities to people who are introverts. What is so important?
• 26:12
  Speaker 1: It's really important to be able to sit with self
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: and to be able to be alone. And that's something
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: a lot of people can't tolerate, that I have to
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: work on a lot with people in therapy that can't
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: tolerate being alone for even 20 years.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: How does that become a strength if somebody develops that ability?
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: What does it support?
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: The ability to be alone, I think, supports a lot
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: of things. Because, I mean, I think if you're a
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: person who... constantly needs to be moving and constantly needs
• 26:39
  Speaker 1: to be entertained and like often can't sit still because
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: maybe you have trauma or you don't want to sit
• 26:46
  Speaker 1: with your feelings or you don't want to, you're kind
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: of like the person you can't hit a moving target
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: is kind of what I always call it. Those are
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: often people who are like workaholics or, you know, they
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: constantly have to be in a relationship or they constantly,
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: they're always, they always have to be occupied by something
• 27:02
  Speaker 1: and it's, you know, I'm thinking of a couple of
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: people that I know that if they heard this, they
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: wouldn't know what I'm thinking of. Yeah. Slow down.
• 27:13
  Speaker 2: Well, because you're saying that when there's that kind of
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: frenetic like blah, blah, blah, right? It leads to this
• 27:18
  Speaker 2: disconnection with the self that is not good for anyone
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: that we become disengaged from our own. Yeah.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I think you want to find the idea, right? Is
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: always to find the middle, to find the gray of like,
• 27:32
  Speaker 1: I want to be able to be around other people
• 27:34
  Speaker 1: and be social. And I also want to be able
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: to like sit with myself, even if I'm in distress
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: or even if I'm thinking about uncomfortable things and manage
• 27:46
  Speaker 1: it and stay regulated or be able to cry or
• 27:50
  Speaker 1: be able to have anxiety or be able to be
• 27:54
  Speaker 1: angry and be alone with it and not need to
• 27:58
  Speaker 1: be rescued, not need, you know, someone else to be
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: there to regulate me. Like there has to be this
• 28:03
  Speaker 1: sort of like middle path that we walk where like
• 28:06
  Speaker 1: we can do both.
• 28:08
  Speaker 2: As you're talking, I'm just, I'm thinking of, I had
• 28:10
  Speaker 2: the great fortune to work with a very powerful clinical
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: supervisor at one time. And she said something like that.
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: She was like, you know, most of the problems in
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the world are caused by people's inability to tolerate their
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: own feelings. And so the goal here is not to
• 28:26
  Speaker 2: make the feelings go away. It's like feel them.
• 28:29
  Speaker 1: We're all right.
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: Cause it's when people start trying to get away from
• 28:32
  Speaker 2: their feelings. That's when things go sideways. It, some form
• 28:36
  Speaker 2: or fashion, right? We start creating all kinds of problems.
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: I always tell people, you know, cause in DBT we
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: teach skills. And so like we have our patients that
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: are like, they're not working. And I'm like, they're not
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: there to make the feelings go away. Like they're not
• 28:50
  Speaker 1: there to make you feel better. They're there to like
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: deescalate you. So you don't make things worse, right? Like
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: they're not, the skills aren't going to make you feel better.
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: Like you're, nobody wants to hear that though.
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: Dr.
• 29:02
  Speaker 2: Suzanne, they're like, but.
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: I, I signed up to know they don't want to
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: hear that. They get really upset, you know? And it's like,
• 29:08
  Speaker 1: what are they doing this? I'm not going to feel better.
• 29:10
  Speaker 1: It's like, you're going through a breakup. You're going to
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: feel sad. If you're going, if you know, you just
• 29:14
  Speaker 1: got in a fight with someone, you're going to feel angry. Like, yeah,
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: it's about tolerating your feelings. And also sometimes being able
• 29:21
  Speaker 1: to validate your feelings or sitting with your feelings until
• 29:25
  Speaker 1: you realize like, Oh, maybe I, Maybe I did something
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: wrong and I need to apologize for it or, but yeah,
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: it is about like what your supervisor said, which is,
• 29:35
  Speaker 1: I think a really, it's something I'm trying to teach
• 29:38
  Speaker 1: my seven-year-old right now. Right. of like I get it
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: that you're really angry and you just.
• 29:45
  Speaker 2: Have to not throw the chair out the window yeah right.
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: You know you can't scream at me you can't kick
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: me we just went through that the other day like
• 29:52
  Speaker 1: your mom will kick me when you're angry like if
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: you do that I'm not gonna want to talk to
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: you and you know I think Yeah. So being able
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: to sit with self is a really important lesson. Absolutely.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: If you're not taught as a child, you have to
• 30:07
  Speaker 1: learn as an adult.
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: Well, directly correlated to, you know, with like, how do
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: we have healthy relationships? Because I mean, in some ways,
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: you know, you can get a lot of people to
• 30:16
  Speaker 2: hang out with you. But what I've seen, and I'm
• 30:18
  Speaker 2: sure you notice this in your practice as well, is
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: that people who are like trying to do something besides
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: like sit with their feelings can often get into relationships
• 30:29
  Speaker 2: or stay in relationships that are like objectively not good relationships,
• 30:35
  Speaker 2: but just that connection, that distraction that like somebody else
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: in their space is preferential to this like void or
• 30:43
  Speaker 2: the big black hole of feelings. Like this is still better,
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: even if it's awful. And so we need to be
• 30:52
  Speaker 2: able to do that so that we don't start making
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: connections with weird people, substances, you know, so all kinds
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: of stuff.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, I think everybody has a different coping mechanism
• 31:04
  Speaker 1: for not when you don't want to deal with certain feelings,
• 31:08
  Speaker 1: whether it's, you know, behavioral addictions, like relationships or, you know,
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: it's substance use or gambling, sex, whatever it is. And yeah,
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: of course, I think we've all had that friend that
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: has the boyfriend or the girlfriend where you're like, what
• 31:27
  Speaker 1: are you doing? You know, like, like you guys have
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: broken up 25 times. And, and I, that was me
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: in my twenties. And I look back now and I'm like,
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: what was I doing? You know? And then I met
• 31:39
  Speaker 1: my husband. I remember being like, Oh.
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: Well, if it's okay. And I don't want to, I
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: don't want to.
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: Spend all that time doing that. And it was supposed
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: to be like this.
• 31:49
  Speaker 2: But like, what were you operating on that then you
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: can see now was like, what was going on in
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: there that then you were able to shift?
• 32:01
  Speaker 1: A lot of unresolved trauma. And I wasn't, I wasn't
• 32:05
  Speaker 1: sober yet. So I've been sober for a long time
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: now and I hadn't gotten sober yet. And just a
• 32:11
  Speaker 1: lot of unresolved trauma and anger and Making a lot
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: of bad choices about the guys I was seeing and
• 32:19
  Speaker 1: playing out a lot of like family of origin trauma
• 32:21
  Speaker 1: with them. And by the time I met my husband,
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: I was sober and had done a lot of therapy
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: and was like making, you know, much better choices. Like
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: he was sober. He had a job.
• 32:35
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 32:37
  Speaker 1: Check, check, right. I was like, oh, yeah, yeah. You know,
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: he was nice to me. Like, he, like, didn't cheat
• 32:45
  Speaker 1: on me. Like, I just remember being like, oh, this
• 32:48
  Speaker 1: feels so much simpler. Wow. I would have just, like,
• 32:52
  Speaker 1: learned this in my 20s. But I also think, yeah,
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: you know, it's one thing I see happen often with
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: my patients where, you know, I find myself telling them,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: you know, It's supposed to be so much easier than this.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: It's not supposed to be this painful. And the idea, like,
• 33:11
  Speaker 1: or this actor being alone is just so much more
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: terrifying to them than being mistreated. And that is, like,
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: one of my least favorite types of therapy to do
• 33:23
  Speaker 1: is to help someone tolerate being in an abusive relationship.
• 33:26
  Speaker 1: I really don't like it. But I do it a
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: lot because, you know, as therapists, we can't tell someone
• 33:31
  Speaker 1: you have a breakup with your boyfriend. We can just
• 33:34
  Speaker 1: support them and try to help them as much as
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: we can, like get to a realization or help them
• 33:43
  Speaker 1: get strong enough, emotionally strong enough to where they have
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: the realization themselves. And it's so hard to go on
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: that journey with someone.
• 33:51
  Speaker 2: And you know what, just for the benefit of anybody
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: listening to this conversation who might be stuck in some
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: of those patterns, you know, one of my very favorite
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: things about Getting to do this podcast is having the
• 34:02
  Speaker 2: opportunity to talk to so many interesting people such as yourself.
• 34:06
  Speaker 2: This is reminding me, though, of a conversation I had
• 34:08
  Speaker 2: with our colleague, psychologist Marissa Franco, who is just releasing
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: a new book called Worthy. What her research uncovered that
• 34:19
  Speaker 2: I hadn't thought about before, but it's like, yeah, is
• 34:23
  Speaker 2: that when people have attachment injuries or when they have
• 34:27
  Speaker 2: a lot of historical experiences of being traumatized by humans
• 34:31
  Speaker 2: and relationships, they actually feel uncomfortable when people are nice
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: to them or in healthy situations. And it feels much
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: more congruent and like it's a better match for how
• 34:43
  Speaker 2: they feel on the inside. to be in toxic relationships
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: with people who are mean to them. And so that
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: this is also a great point, you know, for what
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: you're saying is that to have truly healthy relationships with others,
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: it actually starts on the inside. And that's the big
• 35:00
  Speaker 2: takeaway from what I'm hearing you say too.
• 35:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, I wrote my dissertation on romantic partner
• 35:06
  Speaker 1: selection and I Go figure. We do our own work,
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: don't we? And repetition compulsion within romantic partner selection. And yes,
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: at percent, your attachment style determines who you pick. And
• 35:19
  Speaker 1: if you don't feel worthy, water seeks its own level.
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: And so, yeah, I was picking people who were just
• 35:29
  Speaker 1: like in the same place that I was in. And
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: I was as toxic as they were. I can't imagine,
• 35:36
  Speaker 1: you know, now. Like, I mean, my husband and I
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: have never been in any of the situations like that,
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: like I was in then, but there also wasn't any
• 35:45
  Speaker 1: of the same kind of situations involved. So I think
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: she's right. You know, and I think attachment work is
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: like outside of DBT, like one of the things that
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: I work with a lot and it all, it goes
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: back to family of origin stuff. You look at what's
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: modeled for you and you kind of repeat that when
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: you grow up. Yeah, that is.
• 36:04
  Speaker 2: Hey, We need to take one more fast break. But
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: on the other side, I'm hoping that we can glide
• 36:11
  Speaker 2: to a stop here. After talking through some of the
• 36:15
  Speaker 2: things that people can do, the takeaways, things that somebody
• 36:19
  Speaker 2: listening to this might consider deploying in their own lives.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: And some of these ideas might work for some, not others.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: So much better days we're together.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: So we're back with Dr. Suzanne Wallach. And as promised,
• 36:43
  Speaker 2: now we're going to turn our attention to some of
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: the actionable ideas, things to do differently, maybe even other
• 36:51
  Speaker 2: resources that you might consider if you're getting to a
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: place in your own life where that balance point that,
• 36:58
  Speaker 2: you know, I am tired of being lonely is starting
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: to outweigh the comfort zone. And you're thinking about doing
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: something differently.
• 37:08
  Speaker 1: I think you can always think about joining things, about
• 37:12
  Speaker 1: reaching out. I think finding a coach or finding a
• 37:16
  Speaker 1: therapist is always a good idea. They're very different, but
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: I think if you don't feel like you need therapy,
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: I think coaches can be very helpful if you find
• 37:26
  Speaker 1: they can do the kind of on the ground work
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: that a therapist can't do in an office. And I
• 37:32
  Speaker 1: think that's just depending on what your goals are. But
• 37:35
  Speaker 1: I also think you know, just being curious about, okay, well,
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: what are my goals and what behaviors are getting in
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: the way and how do I challenge those behaviors?
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: Another quick plug. I am such a huge fan of
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: the PEERS program coming out of UCLA, their medical school.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: So PEERS, you guys can look it up online, P-E-E-R-S.
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: And they are using a really interesting coaching model to
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: help primarily younger people, but the ideas are appropriate.
• 38:06
  Speaker 1: For anyone.
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: And so I was first exposed to this because as
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: you mentioned, coming out of the pandemic, you know, we
• 38:13
  Speaker 2: had adolescents, you know, a kid, a pandemic started when
• 38:16
  Speaker 2: they were 11 and now they're 14. And they're like,
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: I do not know how to talk to humans because
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: I've been playing video games for the last three years. Right.
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: And so then how to teach some of these skills
• 38:26
  Speaker 2: and going into like, how do you walk up to
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: somebody you're interested in talking to and And starting a
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: conversation without being a weirdo. How do you walk up
• 38:37
  Speaker 2: to two people or a group of people who are
• 38:39
  Speaker 2: talking to each other and enter that? And here are
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: things to look for. But like in a very broken
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: down way that makes things that can feel hard or
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: mysterious decoded. And this is important, too, if you are
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: struggling with social anxiety issues. Because the hard thing about
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: social anxiety is that if you have been avoiding people
• 39:03
  Speaker 2: and you're out of practice and nobody has taught you
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: how to handle these situations, sometimes when you do try
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: to talk to people, they might experience you as being
• 39:14
  Speaker 2: a little bit off sometimes. And then that can reinforce
• 39:17
  Speaker 2: this fear and anxiety that you have. And so, you know,
• 39:20
  Speaker 2: taking the time to figure out, okay, so how do
• 39:23
  Speaker 2: people who are good at this actually operate? So the
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: peers program might be one. And there are a number
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: of different, you know, self-help books. workbooks that kind of
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: break down the skills. And I think that can be
• 39:32
  Speaker 2: a really helpful strategy because for a lot of people,
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: like it's more than just showing up to a class
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: or an event. It's like, how do I do that? Yeah. Yeah.
• 39:44
  Speaker 2: if that makes sense.
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I agree. I love the peers program.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, you're in Los Angeles. They're like right down
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: the road from you.
• 39:50
  Speaker 1: I know a lot of people who've done it. It's
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: a great program, especially, I mean, it's great for younger people,
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: but like you said, the skills can apply to anyone.
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: And so there's.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: Also a lot of coming out of the DBT world.
• 40:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, one of the facets is how do we
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: have positive or healthier interactions with people, right? Because as
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: we know in People have big emotions and flooding and
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: expressions of anger that can get in the way. So
• 40:18
  Speaker 2: what are some of the things that you might draw
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: from that science?
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: In DBT, we teach skills in four different modules. So
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: we teach mindfulness, which is not like really Zen mindfulness.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Mindfulness of what's going on in our environment, what's happening
• 40:32
  Speaker 1: in our bodies, so that we're always aware of what
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: the environment or what warning signs our body is giving
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: us about what we might be feeling. emotion regulation, distress tolerance,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: and interpersonal effectiveness.
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: Interpersonal effectiveness.
• 40:46
  Speaker 1: That's right.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: Interpersonal effectiveness.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Interpersonal effectiveness is where we're really focusing on reactivation and
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: relationship effectiveness. How do you keep relationships and how do
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: you also maintain your self-respect in relationships and get what
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: you want out of relationships, but also not be a
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: doormat in relationships? And so a lot of that is,
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: you know, trying to figure out, which I think is
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: hard for some people, like, when do I take no
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: for an answer? When do I push a little harder? Like,
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: when do I use a gentle or easy manner? When
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: do I, when do I put my self-respect before, like,
• 41:24
  Speaker 1: and my values before the other person's wants and needs? Like,
• 41:28
  Speaker 1: when do I, and so there are different skills we
• 41:31
  Speaker 1: use to help teach people, you know, like when to
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: use which skill and when. because obviously if you're in
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: a situation with your boss, for example, there are different
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: skills that you need to use than if you're in
• 41:46
  Speaker 1: a situation with your sister. And if you're someone who
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: gets emotionally dysregulated and maybe struggles with anger, you really
• 41:55
  Speaker 1: have to use different skills at work than you would
• 41:58
  Speaker 1: maybe with your family. So it's really about, you know,
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: we try to teach too, like, you know, you can
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: use these different skills in different places. And we also
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: teach people, like you use them based on your distress level,
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: like interpersonal effectiveness skills on a distress scale in DBT
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: of one to 10, you can't use unless you're between
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: a one and a three. You just can't because your
• 42:19
  Speaker 1: prefrontal cortex isn't working. So you can't like problem solve
• 42:23
  Speaker 1: or have a conversation with somebody if your distress is
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: out of 10. Yeah. But DBT skills in general, I
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: really think the whole world should have to I know
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: I'm biased, but it's helped my life so much over
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: the 14 years I've been doing it. Like I use
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: DBT skills all day.
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 42:42
  Speaker 1: Suzanne, like, you know, I've been being a keyboard warrior,
• 42:46
  Speaker 1: just like Suzanne use opposite action to anger or like with,
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: I use it. I'm with my husband all the time.
• 42:52
  Speaker 2: And you know what? I mean, so DBT, and I
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: could see people being like, whoa, because this can't be
• 42:57
  Speaker 2: the big guns. I mean, it is a treatment model.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: And the active ingredients, though, you can find in other
• 43:04
  Speaker 2: places as well. You know, emotional intelligence coaching, right, is
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: part of that self-management. The communication skills. that come, the
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: interpersonal effectiveness, the self-awareness through mindfulness or, you know, somatic experiencing.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, there are places that you can pull these
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: things together and they work. And so DBT is just
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: this lovely combination where people are experiencing this to an
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: intense degree where you get that whole package. And that's
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: a beautiful thing. It's a great model. I mean, you
• 43:37
  Speaker 2: can also find it on YouTube.
• 43:39
  Speaker 1: I mean, taught on YouTube. Yeah. Or you can just
• 43:42
  Speaker 1: go take, you don't have to take a whole program.
• 43:44
  Speaker 1: You can just go take a workbooks. There's even Blaise
• 43:49
  Speaker 1: Aguirre wrote DBT skills for dummies, which is a great book, actually.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: But yeah, if you, I mean, there's videos of Marshall
• 43:56
  Speaker 1: Linehan teaching the DBT skills on YouTube, which is amazing.
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: So much good stuff fell out of this conversation. So
• 44:04
  Speaker 2: on behalf of our listeners, thank you for a good
• 44:07
  Speaker 2: time and just sharing your Your insights. And I think
• 44:11
  Speaker 2: we did a lot of work here, you know, just
• 44:12
  Speaker 2: talking about like the inner experience of why it is
• 44:16
  Speaker 2: so hard, you know, opportunities to have a middle path.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: Like how do you start to establish connections in a
• 44:24
  Speaker 2: more structured or organized way if it is hard for
• 44:28
  Speaker 2: you to go up and start talking to people, right? Yeah.
• 44:30
  Speaker 2: But then we also talked about a lot of the
• 44:32
  Speaker 2: inner work that's often required in being able to not
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: just establish connections, but like what you were talking about
• 44:39
  Speaker 2: at the end there. How do you maintain them if
• 44:42
  Speaker 2: there are some patterns on your side that will lead
• 44:46
  Speaker 2: you to blow out of relationships unless you have a
• 44:49
  Speaker 2: different way of managing it? I know we have to go,
• 44:52
  Speaker 2: but before we end, just really briefly, tell people a
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: little bit more about your practice in Los Angeles, where
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: to find you.
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: And- Yeah, so I am the founder and owner of SoCalDBT,
• 45:02
  Speaker 1: where we offer comprehensive DBT, but we also do private
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: practice psychotherapy. So we offer other types of evidence-based psychotherapy
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: like CBT, ACT. Well, Dr.
• 45:11
  Speaker 2: Suzanne Wallach, it has been such a pleasure. Thank you
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: for spending this time with us.
• 45:14
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for having me. I appreciate it.
• 45:16
  Speaker 2: Thank you. You guys, that was a good conversation, wasn't it?
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: I really appreciated Dr. Suzanne's perspective. I hope you did
• 45:30
  Speaker 2: as well. And I think that my takeaways from this
• 45:35
  Speaker 2: is that this is multi-dimensional, right? If you have been
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: feeling lonely or isolated or you wish you had more
• 45:45
  Speaker 2: good people in your life, there's not just one reason
• 45:50
  Speaker 2: that like got you into this space. We talked about
• 45:53
  Speaker 2: so many different things, the way that our culture has changed,
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: you know, the people change over time, isolation of the pandemic,
• 45:59
  Speaker 2: but also a lot of internal factors as well. And so,
• 46:04
  Speaker 2: you know, if you've been feeling lonely and if any
• 46:06
  Speaker 2: of that has been turning into, you know, And it's
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: because there's something wrong with me or something that I
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: do wrong or blah, blah, blah. I hope you heard
• 46:16
  Speaker 2: a lot around, yeah, maybe there's actually more to the
• 46:19
  Speaker 2: story and we're battling against a larger system. It's still real.
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: We still have to do stuff in order to change
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: that tide, but it isn't because there's something wrong with you.
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: And I just wanted to say that out loud because
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: at the heart, the dark, anxious heart of social anxiety,
• 46:38
  Speaker 2: really like that that does create disconnection, that's the belief, right?
• 46:44
  Speaker 2: You know, it's because of me. If people did get
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: to know me, they wouldn't like me or, you know,
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: I'm weird, whatever. Everybody's weird as we discussed. So it
• 46:54
  Speaker 2: isn't about not being weird. It is about being weird
• 46:59
  Speaker 2: and finding your specific genre of weirdo to go and
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: hang out with. And that is one of the other
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: things that I loved about this conversation is as we
• 47:07
  Speaker 2: talked about like middle paths, yes, not everybody is going
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: to be the one who's like, hi, we haven't met yet,
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: but you look interesting. So like, let's talk. I think
• 47:18
  Speaker 2: I want to be friends with you. Tell me more.
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: Like that's, I do that. And I know that like
• 47:23
  Speaker 2: that I'm weird in that way. I'm going to own that.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: And that, that is just not true for a lot
• 47:28
  Speaker 2: of people. And so you know, safe spaces of, you know,
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: common interests, go to places, you can decide if you
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: want to talk to people or not. You can go
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: 10 times and kind of create some familiarity, scope it out. Then,
• 47:40
  Speaker 2: you know, strike up a conversation with the person that
• 47:41
  Speaker 2: you've been sitting next to for the last four weeks
• 47:43
  Speaker 2: in a row. Like it makes it so much easier.
• 47:45
  Speaker 2: And also common interests, proximity, repetition, like these are all
• 47:52
  Speaker 2: great strategies. We also talked about a lot of other resources.
• 47:56
  Speaker 2: We talked about some of the skills buildings. And we
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: mentioned some resources. So certainly the PEERS program out of UCLA,
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: they have fantastic YouTube videos, programs. There's books on the
• 48:09
  Speaker 2: science of making and keeping friends. So if any of
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: what I mentioned there sounded interesting to you, please do
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: check that out.
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: And then, of course, Dr.
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: Suzanne was also talking about skills and strategies that come
• 48:20
  Speaker 2: out of the DBT model in our conversation. She mentioned
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: all kinds of free online resources that you can browse around.
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: Certainly her practice, if you want to do, you know,
• 48:29
  Speaker 2: DBT treatment is always available. And then very lastly, just
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: more resources for you. You know, at My Practice Growing Self,
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: we're oftentimes working with people around a variety of life goals. And,
• 48:42
  Speaker 2: you know, we're all multi-dimensional. It's not just one thing,
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: but many people who are, you know, on a journey
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: of growth, who are figuring themselves out.
• 48:52
  Speaker 1: Who am I?
• 48:53
  Speaker 2: What do I want in my life?
• 48:54
  Speaker 1: What do I care about?
• 48:55
  Speaker 2: There's like different pillars, right? One pillar might be your
• 48:59
  Speaker 2: intimate relationship. One might be your relationship with yourself, right?
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: How do I feel okay on the inside? We talked
• 49:05
  Speaker 2: about emotional intelligence, like how do I feel okay-ish or
• 49:10
  Speaker 2: be okay when I'm not okay? Because that's like a
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: whole other thing. Career, like all kinds of stuff. But
• 49:15
  Speaker 2: usually sooner or later, it makes sense to talk about,
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: but what is your social life?
• 49:20
  Speaker 1: Like?
• 49:20
  Speaker 2: What do you do for fun? Who do you hang
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: out with? How do you feel about the current state
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: of affairs? Is there a gap between where you are now?
• 49:27
  Speaker 2: What do you want? And then, you know, let's put
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: a plan for you in place to change that if
• 49:33
  Speaker 2: you would like to have it be changed. And again,
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: that there's no right way to be. There's no right
• 49:39
  Speaker 2: way to be. And it is also true. Lots of
• 49:43
  Speaker 2: research shows that the quality, the perceived quality of our
• 49:48
  Speaker 2: social connections has the biggest impact, not just on our
• 49:54
  Speaker 2: happiness and life satisfaction, but actually like long-term health outcomes.
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: Like people actually live longer when they are embedded in
• 50:01
  Speaker 2: a positive community. So it is important, but it does
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: not mean that you need to have a hundred people.
• 50:07
  Speaker 2: You could have like one or two close friends. Again,
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: it's perceived quality. So that's what we're going for. Anyway,
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: if you would like to do that work with me
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: or anybody on my team, you're always welcome to come.
• 50:19
  Speaker 2: Let us know about that and sign up for your
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: free consultation at growingself.com. Otherwise, I hope you enjoyed this too.
• 50:26
  Speaker 2: And I will be back in touch next week with
• 50:28
  Speaker 2: another episode. Love, happiness, and success. Talk to you later.
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: So much better things put together.