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Bryan Kohberger Keeps Damning 'Souvenir' From Idaho Quadruple Student Slay? · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:05
Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Greece. Did Brian Coburger, the alleged
0:16
Speaker 1: killer of four Beautiful University Idaho students, actually keep a
0:22
Speaker 1: souvenir of the murders. I'm a big scrap booker, and
0:28
Speaker 1: I not only put photos of every event. Right now,
0:32
Speaker 1: I'm still stuck on Christmas of twenty seventeen. I have
0:36
Speaker 1: church bulletins, I have Christmas cards, all sorts of things
0:41
Speaker 1: I put in with the photos. Is that how he
0:45
Speaker 1: viewed the murders, like a concert he attended, or his
0:51
Speaker 1: junior senior prom or some other big event in his life,
0:55
Speaker 1: that he actually kept mementos a souvenir, so to speak,
1:01
Speaker 1: that amidst an alleged internal affairs investigation that could threaten
1:09
Speaker 1: the state's case as well as the possible demolition of
1:13
Speaker 1: the crime scene. We just saw in the Alex Murdai
1:17
Speaker 1: case that the jury went back to the scene of
1:21
Speaker 1: the crime. If that home, that house where the students
1:26
Speaker 1: were murdered is demolished, will that somehow result in a
1:31
Speaker 1: problem for the prosecution. All this swirling as news continues
1:37
Speaker 1: to develop day by day literally in the prosecution of
1:41
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger and a quadruple slay case. I mean it.
1:46
Speaker 1: See Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for being
1:49
Speaker 1: with us here at Fox Nation and Serious M one eleven.
1:53
Speaker 1: First of all, I want to talk about what was
1:57
Speaker 1: discovered the alleged mento kept by Brian Coburger. Take a
2:02
Speaker 1: listen to Tracy Walder, former CIA and FBI special agent.
2:07
Speaker 1: If he kept sort of a souvenir, Really, it points
2:11
Speaker 1: to just that that he, for his ego purposes, wanted
2:15
Speaker 1: to keep a souvenir of this crime, wanted to keep
2:18
Speaker 1: a souvenir of what he believed that he had successfully done.
2:22
Speaker 1: And I always think a lot of times with criminals
2:25
Speaker 1: that I've seen, it's always their ego that gets them
2:28
Speaker 1: in the end. You know. I do think that he
2:30
Speaker 1: was very confident in what he had done, and I
2:33
Speaker 1: believe that he felt he hadn't left any evidence behind.
2:36
Speaker 1: But it's always their ego that's their undoing. And I
2:39
Speaker 1: believed he wanted a trophy, if you will, of the
2:42
Speaker 1: crime that he had committed. With me and all Star
2:44
Speaker 1: panel to make sense of what we know right now.
2:46
Speaker 1: But first I want to go out to senior reporter
2:48
Speaker 1: for Dailymail dot Com, Kaitlin Becker, who has been on
2:52
Speaker 1: the Coburger prosecution from the very very beginning. Caitlin, thank
2:57
Speaker 1: you for being with us. What exactly are we talking about?
3:00
Speaker 1: We're talking about an ID here. Nancy Sorts had told
3:04
Speaker 1: News Nation that Coburger was found with an ID connected
3:10
Speaker 1: to someone involved in the murders. They weren't specific about
3:13
Speaker 1: a victim, but that's what we're assuming, that it's an
3:15
Speaker 1: ID belonging to a victim in his possession after the murders. Nancy.
3:20
Speaker 1: There has been a lot of debate about where this
3:23
Speaker 1: idea is found. I tend to disagree with a lot
3:26
Speaker 1: of the reporting, but it was collected by police during
3:30
Speaker 1: the search of his parents' property and his car in
3:34
Speaker 1: allbrights Philip Pennsylvania, Well, that's certainly an air is it down, Caitlin,
3:37
Speaker 1: because it's got to either be hidden away, squirreled away
3:40
Speaker 1: in the home or somewhere in the car. Now, let's
3:43
Speaker 1: think this through. We know the facts of the case.
3:46
Speaker 1: So Chris mcdonnah joining me, Director Coal Case Foundation, former
3:50
Speaker 1: homicide detective and host of a YouTube channel, The Interview Room. Chris,
3:55
Speaker 1: you've got two choices about where the idea was found,
3:59
Speaker 1: and we do believe it was an ID such as
4:01
Speaker 1: a driver's license or a student ID belonging to one
4:05
Speaker 1: of the four victims. Now also know that Coburger was
4:12
Speaker 1: stalking at least one of the three women online, maybe
4:18
Speaker 1: dating back all the way to twenty twenty one, before
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Speaker 1: he even started his PhD program at Washington State University,
4:25
Speaker 1: which is a whole another can of worms. We'll circle
4:28
Speaker 1: back to that Caitlin Backer and entire panel, but there's
4:32
Speaker 1: only two places we know that this license. We're going
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Speaker 1: to go with a license or a driver's ID or
4:39
Speaker 1: student ID was found either in his car or in
4:42
Speaker 1: his parents house. Did he travel cross country with that
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Speaker 1: ID in the Elantra? Did he have it that close
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Speaker 1: at hand? I mean, Chris McDonough, you know what my
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Speaker 1: purse is, my pocketbook, it's a rubber band, and in
4:59
Speaker 1: the rubber and I had my driver's license, to credit
5:02
Speaker 1: cards and a whole bunch of other stuff like a
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Speaker 1: cost code card. I have some driver's licenses and credit
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Speaker 1: cards my children made from me when they were about
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Speaker 1: three years old. They drew them on the back of
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Speaker 1: little cards and you know, drew a picture from my
5:17
Speaker 1: face and made up fake numbers. For my driver's license.
5:21
Speaker 1: I carry those to this day. So just what does
5:24
Speaker 1: that mean? And you're a mind Chris mcdonna. Can't you
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Speaker 1: just imagine Coburger driving cross country with his father all
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Speaker 1: the way from Washington State University home to his family
5:36
Speaker 1: home in the Poconos with that driver's license. That student
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Speaker 1: id right there with him so he could hold on
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Speaker 1: to it. Absolutely, Nancy, I mean, this is all about
5:46
Speaker 1: power and control for him. And that car is so
5:52
Speaker 1: significant to Coburger because it gives him the sense of
5:58
Speaker 1: not only reliving the incident, because as he can remember
6:01
Speaker 1: all those times potentially they drove back there, allegedly twelve
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Speaker 1: separate times. Now he potentially has a trophy from one
6:10
Speaker 1: of the victims here and as they unpacked, this individual's
6:14
Speaker 1: suspectology is what we call it. I can't help but
6:18
Speaker 1: go back to a conversation we had early on your
6:22
Speaker 1: show about through the correlation between some of the study
6:26
Speaker 1: he potentially could have been doing with BTK. BTK took
6:32
Speaker 1: Nancy Fox's driver's license, And when I heard this and
6:37
Speaker 1: read the story from Kalin, I thought to myself, Holy cow,
6:40
Speaker 1: is this guy actually potentially laying over his behavior on
6:46
Speaker 1: something that he was studying. I would submit to you,
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Speaker 1: We're going to see a lot more about these correlations.
6:55
Speaker 1: I would suspect as this case continues to unpack it self.
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Speaker 1: You know what you said that almost clinically, but let
7:02
Speaker 1: me break it down and regular people talk. You're absolutely correct,
7:07
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough that he Brian Coberger, apparently kept souvenirs of
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Speaker 1: the murders, and you were talking about his studies, and yes,
7:20
Speaker 1: we did talk about them here on crime stories where
7:23
Speaker 1: he would actually ask felons, violent felons, I'm talking murderers, rapist,
7:29
Speaker 1: child molesters, how did you pick your victim? How did
7:34
Speaker 1: you escape, how did you get away? Did you quote
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Speaker 1: achieve your goal? His words, not mine? In other words,
7:39
Speaker 1: did you perform the murder or the rape? How did
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Speaker 1: that make you feel? He was getting vicarious thrills through
7:49
Speaker 1: the crimes of other violent felons, reliving their experience, speaking
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Speaker 1: of one of the many, many killers that kept mementos,
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Speaker 1: or as it's called, trophies. That makes me think hunters
8:09
Speaker 1: that put the annual head upon the wall. Talking about
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Speaker 1: humans human trophies. I'm referring right now to Geff Dahmer
8:20
Speaker 1: and our cut b as a brother. Listen to Simon
8:23
Speaker 1: Whistler at biographics. Undoubtedly one of the modern history's most
8:27
Speaker 1: notorious and abhorrent killers, his crimes for the stuff of
8:31
Speaker 1: nice mess. Over the course of thirteen years, he prowled
8:34
Speaker 1: for men and lured them back to his house before
8:37
Speaker 1: drugging them and strangling them. In all, he took the
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Speaker 1: lives of seventeen men between nineteen seventy eight and nineteen
8:44
Speaker 1: ninety one. But simply killing his victims wasn't enough for
8:47
Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dahma. He never wanted them to leave, so he
8:50
Speaker 1: saved several trophies, including severed heads, eventually even eight parts
8:56
Speaker 1: of the victims. He also kept the victims genitals. I
8:59
Speaker 1: can imagine we're talking about their penises and their testicles,
9:04
Speaker 1: so that I started to say, is one of the
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Speaker 1: most outlandish or most unbelievable trophies kept by a killer.
9:15
Speaker 1: But they all are. And right now I'm pretty sure
9:18
Speaker 1: I need a shrink or a drink, But since I'm
9:20
Speaker 1: a teetotaler, I'll go with a shrink. Doctor Jorry Crows
9:24
Speaker 1: and joining me Psychologists faculty Saint Leo University and consultant
9:28
Speaker 1: with a blue Wall Institute. He is the author of Operations,
9:33
Speaker 1: Doctor Jorry. Thank you for being with us, Doctor Jory.
9:37
Speaker 1: I heard Chris McDonough say power and control. Power and control.
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Speaker 1: Why is keeping someone's genitals after you mutilated them, either
9:51
Speaker 1: before postmortem or their student ID. How does that give
9:57
Speaker 1: you power or control over your dead victim? Well, the
10:01
Speaker 1: power and control is kind of the big picture when
10:04
Speaker 1: you individualize it down to the person. It's their recall,
10:09
Speaker 1: it's the fantasy that they attached to it. Wait, I'm
10:12
Speaker 1: trying to absorb everything you're saying. You know, you experts,
10:15
Speaker 1: and that goes for you too, Kaitlyn Becker. You give
10:18
Speaker 1: us so much information. It's like drinking out of the
10:20
Speaker 1: fire hygien. Okay, you said relive because as I told
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Speaker 1: you all over our again is me still trying to
10:28
Speaker 1: ken't play catch up and make the twenty seventeen Christmas album.
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Speaker 1: And yes, I stopped the whole time. I see a
10:35
Speaker 1: picture and I'm like, oh, I remember that putting up
10:38
Speaker 1: the tent Soul and we were laughing, and John Davis
10:40
Speaker 1: started to playing the piano and I made him stop,
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Speaker 1: and I found out it was really on a cell phone.
10:44
Speaker 1: The whole time I relive that moment. Is that what
10:49
Speaker 1: you're saying when I see that picture. Yes, And usually
10:53
Speaker 1: as they develop this fantasy, it becomes what they wanted
10:58
Speaker 1: to be in their mind. Like in for Cormans. You know,
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Speaker 1: if they did something that wasn't right that they would
11:03
Speaker 1: like to do, you know, if they had done it differently,
11:06
Speaker 1: that's incorporated into the fantasy and that's brought out. You know,
11:12
Speaker 1: I'm looking from the clinical perspective when I worked in
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Speaker 1: prison and work with these violent offenders and the sex offenders,
11:19
Speaker 1: you know, getting into that fantasy light and how they
11:24
Speaker 1: related to it through these momentums that they kept time
11:39
Speaker 1: stories with Nancy Grace. Let me just ask, did anybody
11:46
Speaker 1: on this panel ever watched Desperate Housewives? I did? Who's that?
11:49
Speaker 1: Alan Kaitlin? Okay, I never have time to watch TV,
11:54
Speaker 1: but I did get hooked on Desperate Housewives and about
11:56
Speaker 1: every other third Sunday night, i'd watch it. And I
11:59
Speaker 1: remember one guy, he was the villain. Remember he ended
12:04
Speaker 1: up marrying one of the housewives. I can't remember any
12:07
Speaker 1: of their names, but he had lost his wife and
12:10
Speaker 1: daughter in a crash, and she was that Nicolete Sheridan. Yes,
12:16
Speaker 1: don't look at me like that, Jack. I'll watch you
12:17
Speaker 1: one a program and you give me a look. Anyway,
12:22
Speaker 1: he tries to kill her because she mowed down his
12:26
Speaker 1: wife and daughter years and years and years before, and
12:29
Speaker 1: insinuates himself into her life. I think that's how it went. Anyway.
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Speaker 1: In the end, he's sitting in a jail cell, much
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Speaker 1: as doctor Jerry crossin just described, and he's reliving the
12:40
Speaker 1: night not of the attempted murder, but when his wife
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Speaker 1: and daughter said, Hey, we're going to run down to
12:47
Speaker 1: the store. You want to drive with us, and he
12:49
Speaker 1: said no, and they had the rack and died. He
12:53
Speaker 1: relives it over and over and over. But in his
12:57
Speaker 1: mind he goes, no, it's going outside, don't go outside.
13:01
Speaker 1: Stay in here and let's decorate the tree or something
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Speaker 1: like that, and he creates an entire alternate fantasy about
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Speaker 1: what really happened. And for the rest of his life
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Speaker 1: he'll be in that jail cell reliving the moment over
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Speaker 1: and over and replaying it out, just like doctor Jerry
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Speaker 1: Cross and said about how he wishes he could have
13:26
Speaker 1: done it better. And don't you know Johnny Nacarado, former
13:32
Speaker 1: sheriff sergeant crime reconstruction forensic team supervisor at the Johnny
13:40
Speaker 1: Law dot Com. Johnny, And don't you know, if he
13:43
Speaker 1: could do it all over, he would not have left
13:46
Speaker 1: the knife sheath at the murder scene. Hello, right, And
13:52
Speaker 1: he would not have turned his cell phone on when
13:55
Speaker 1: he was a few miles away from the house that
13:58
Speaker 1: we can now trace his circuitous out back to his
14:01
Speaker 1: housing at Washington State University the Knight of the Murders.
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Speaker 1: So he's living in the fantasy land about what he should, could,
14:10
Speaker 1: would have done that Doctor Jerry Crowson and Chris mcdonnough
14:15
Speaker 1: just described, Yeah, that was a little bit of a
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Speaker 1: food par on his whole entire plan. I don't think
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Speaker 1: he realized the technology that reason law enforcement have available
14:26
Speaker 1: to us is just like you know, we learned so
14:31
Speaker 1: much from trial. I bet if he watched the current
14:34
Speaker 1: trial that we just all watched from South Carolina, Murdogue,
14:38
Speaker 1: may he Rottenhill? May he Rotten Hill? And if he
14:41
Speaker 1: would have watched that trial before he committed these murders,
14:44
Speaker 1: do you think he would have done things a little
14:46
Speaker 1: bit differently? I think one hundred percent absolutely. The ID
14:51
Speaker 1: cards that is another foodp on. Now let's say that
14:54
Speaker 1: it's true. Are you what are you attempting to say
14:57
Speaker 1: faux pa because it sounds like you're saying poop. Yeah. Yeah,
15:02
Speaker 1: I thought he had some unusual and unique derivative. But
15:05
Speaker 1: it's just a mispronounce. Okay, go ahead, I mean he
15:11
Speaker 1: that right now we're talking about it's either Kitlin backer.
15:15
Speaker 1: Do you believe it's a driver's license or student I
15:17
Speaker 1: d Honestly, I think it could be either one of them.
15:21
Speaker 1: I think it's whatever was easily accessible that would be.
15:25
Speaker 1: That would be my guest. Which you know, think about it,
15:27
Speaker 1: Johnny knock Carroto, you're the crime scene reconstructionist. I'm thinking
15:33
Speaker 1: about him at the moment of the murders fumbling around
15:37
Speaker 1: and finding a trophy or did he just find it
15:41
Speaker 1: by random? Was it sitting out on the kitchen counter
15:45
Speaker 1: when he walked through and he picked it up? But
15:48
Speaker 1: I could see Hoburger fumbling around in one of their
15:51
Speaker 1: bedrooms trying to find something to take. And you know
15:54
Speaker 1: another thing you could have taken, more like jewelry or
15:57
Speaker 1: some other trophy that we don't know about. Johnny. Yeah,
16:02
Speaker 1: let's just say that the rumor is true. It is
16:05
Speaker 1: an ID card that is of one of the victims.
16:07
Speaker 1: Now here's another thing. He's been stalking them. Did he
16:11
Speaker 1: do a car clout and break in and take some
16:13
Speaker 1: ivs out of purses? Wasn't he in the house prior
16:16
Speaker 1: at one of these big parties, and you know our
16:18
Speaker 1: girls leave their purses around. He covertly gets some IDs
16:22
Speaker 1: out of there, knowing what he's going to do because
16:24
Speaker 1: he knows he is not going to have time with
16:27
Speaker 1: bloody gloves or all this physical evidence. With low Card's principle,
16:30
Speaker 1: he's going to bring something to the scenes, take something away.
16:33
Speaker 1: Did he take these IDs prior to versus the knife
16:36
Speaker 1: of because that that's a pretty tight window. But the
16:40
Speaker 1: surveillance footage of him having to give let these birders
16:43
Speaker 1: get back in and get the footage of him getting
16:45
Speaker 1: out of there, that's a short time, So we don't know.
16:48
Speaker 1: I think if I think you're right, yeah, I do.
16:53
Speaker 1: I think it might have been before. There just seems
16:55
Speaker 1: to be so much evidence that there was this alleged
16:58
Speaker 1: stalking from Coburger to the whole and to the girls
17:01
Speaker 1: leading up to the murders that I had always, you know,
17:05
Speaker 1: fearized that he had been in the house before it
17:07
Speaker 1: likely disguised as a partygoer, and that would be ample
17:10
Speaker 1: opportunity to, like he said, take something. I think he likely,
17:13
Speaker 1: if I'm guessing, had other things that belonged to his
17:17
Speaker 1: original target, and that the ID might have been one
17:21
Speaker 1: of the things that he took ahead of time. I'll
17:23
Speaker 1: be curious to see one of the victives had reported
17:26
Speaker 1: it missing from the beginning, Cat Limbecker, you had been
17:29
Speaker 1: saying that, and remind me everybody. I want to circle
17:32
Speaker 1: back to the now. We believe, based on newly released evidence,
17:37
Speaker 1: that Koburger had been actually in touch with or trying
17:41
Speaker 1: to be in touch with, one of these female victims
17:43
Speaker 1: dating back to twenty twenty one, which is before he
17:47
Speaker 1: started his studies at Washington State University. That's a whole
17:51
Speaker 1: other can of worms. Did he actually go to WSU?
17:54
Speaker 1: Did he leave to Paul where he was studying across
17:58
Speaker 1: the country because of a fixation on one of these girls?
18:01
Speaker 1: How did that happen? Only a seasoned and veteran computer
18:07
Speaker 1: tech guy, it's going to be able to unravel that.
18:11
Speaker 1: But back to this what he may have taken, Guys,
18:15
Speaker 1: take a lison to Aurica nineteen in as in now
18:19
Speaker 1: you're hearing forensics psychologist doctor Joni Johnston in Mark of
18:24
Speaker 1: a Killer. Listen, we know that one of Robert Hansen's victims,
18:28
Speaker 1: he had a fish necklace that was so meaningful to
18:31
Speaker 1: her that she never took it off, and even after
18:33
Speaker 1: she died and it was later discovered what happened to her,
18:37
Speaker 1: her family asked for that necklace back. When Robert Hanson
18:42
Speaker 1: takes these trophies, he is extending his hunting. So he's
18:46
Speaker 1: got the prize. Now his whole life, in some respects,
18:49
Speaker 1: is about hunting. He's got trophies on his wall, He's
18:52
Speaker 1: got trophies now hidden in his attic, so he feels
18:57
Speaker 1: incredibly powerful. It's probably the peak of this entire experience
19:01
Speaker 1: for him. Not only a memento to relive the incident,
19:05
Speaker 1: like I'm reliving Christmas twenty seventeen with the twins and
19:08
Speaker 1: David decorating the tree, but not only that mark take.
19:13
Speaker 1: He's got a hell of a problem at trial. If
19:18
Speaker 1: what Kaitlin Becker from Daily Mill is telling us, I
19:22
Speaker 1: believe she is correct that he kept a memento. Oh man,
19:26
Speaker 1: I'd love to spend that out and opening arguments to
19:29
Speaker 1: the jury about him holding onto it, just looking at
19:33
Speaker 1: it in his glove box in his car like it
19:35
Speaker 1: was radioactive, knowing it was in there the entire two
19:39
Speaker 1: thousand plus miles across the country. What is that, Kaitlin
19:42
Speaker 1: jumping in? Yeah? Can I jump in? Really that? Yes?
19:45
Speaker 1: I take them issue with the fact that some sources
19:49
Speaker 1: had said it was found in the glove box. I
19:52
Speaker 1: had passed through and looked through the search for ITT
19:56
Speaker 1: just with a fine tooth. Cold you really have And
19:59
Speaker 1: I gotta tell are you are there the same thing?
20:01
Speaker 1: But I learned a lot listening to you. It was awesome.
20:04
Speaker 1: Go ahead. I The only place I found mention of
20:07
Speaker 1: IDs was in what was taken from inside Coburger's parents
20:12
Speaker 1: house in Albright Spill And in the list it says
20:16
Speaker 1: number thirty five on the list, I can read a
20:18
Speaker 1: Q right now. It says ID cards cards plural inside
20:23
Speaker 1: glove inside box, so it doesn't say inside a glove box,
20:28
Speaker 1: and it's not from his car. It says ID cards
20:30
Speaker 1: inside glove inside box, as if he's hiding the ID
20:34
Speaker 1: in a glove and then hiding that glove in the box.
20:36
Speaker 1: I'm curious who the glove blogs too. And I think
20:39
Speaker 1: there's something so telling that if this is what is
20:42
Speaker 1: referred to by the ID belonging to one of the victims,
20:46
Speaker 1: not only was it traveling with him allegedly from Pullman,
20:49
Speaker 1: Washington to Albright Spill, but it's inside the home so
20:53
Speaker 1: close to him, and it sounds like it's something that's
20:55
Speaker 1: hidden to me. So I think that makes it even worse. Well,
20:59
Speaker 1: let me add something psychologically real quick, hold on. I
21:02
Speaker 1: agree with Caitlin Becker and I started our discussion with
21:06
Speaker 1: it's either in the glove compartment in the car or
21:09
Speaker 1: somewhere in the family home. And my reading of the
21:12
Speaker 1: search warrant, of course we're going to have to hear
21:14
Speaker 1: it from the horse's mouth, is what Kaitlyn Becker just said.
21:16
Speaker 1: I think it's found. The student ID, if that's what
21:20
Speaker 1: it is, is in the parents home. It's inside a glove,
21:25
Speaker 1: you know, the perfect place to look for everything. It's
21:27
Speaker 1: always in somebody's underwear and sock drawer. That's where everybody
21:30
Speaker 1: hides everything. Yeah, I still have hidden in there my
21:36
Speaker 1: children's teeth at the tooth ferry took in little bags
21:40
Speaker 1: with the date on it. I don't know whose tooth
21:42
Speaker 1: goes to his mouth. I didn't think of that, but
21:45
Speaker 1: that said, I still do it, and I even know better.
21:49
Speaker 1: So Mark Tate, I believe she's right. And I could
21:52
Speaker 1: spend that out in opening argument too, because he did
21:54
Speaker 1: go across the country with the ID just thinking about it.
21:59
Speaker 1: Then he takes great care, Mark Tate, putting the ID
22:02
Speaker 1: inside the glove inside of a box in his family home.
22:06
Speaker 1: You know, he had to very carefully pick that spot. Sure,
22:09
Speaker 1: it's going to come back to bite him like a
22:11
Speaker 1: rattlesnake on the neck at trial, Mark Tate, Mark Tate,
22:16
Speaker 1: a high profile trial lawyer with the Tate Group joining us.
22:19
Speaker 1: Go ahead, and Mark take hey, yeah, that's a very
22:22
Speaker 1: specific bite location you've chosen for where this piece of
22:24
Speaker 1: evidence is going to hit him. But you know, usually, Nancy,
22:28
Speaker 1: when I'm talking with you about these cases that get
22:30
Speaker 1: this national and international attention, I enjoy pointing out to
22:34
Speaker 1: you how I could defend the case, and it usually
22:38
Speaker 1: sparks your ire and you come at me like a
22:40
Speaker 1: spider monkey with how crazy I am. I've never been
22:44
Speaker 1: compared to a spider monkey, but I'll lie tone. The
22:47
Speaker 1: more I read that Caitlin writes, and the more that
22:50
Speaker 1: I hear it in other areas, you know, in the media.
22:54
Speaker 1: I would not be very pleased with having to serve
22:59
Speaker 1: the role as a public defender in defending this guy.
23:02
Speaker 1: The evidence is stacking up against him in a way
23:06
Speaker 1: that I just don't see any room. I don't see
23:10
Speaker 1: any daylight between him and the charges that he's going
23:13
Speaker 1: to be facing. And you know, with the other cases
23:16
Speaker 1: we've recently spoken about, you know, I tell you, if
23:19
Speaker 1: the offender had called me when he committed the crime,
23:23
Speaker 1: I could have kept him from talking in a way
23:25
Speaker 1: that gets him convicted later. You know, I would defend
23:29
Speaker 1: the guy charge right now with the Stormy Daniels cover
23:32
Speaker 1: up payment, I could defend that. I could see a
23:35
Speaker 1: way that I could defend it. I'm having a hard
23:37
Speaker 1: time seeing a way that I can defend this case.
23:40
Speaker 1: And as I've told you, and as you know I
23:42
Speaker 1: like to do, I like to handle criminal defense matters
23:45
Speaker 1: where I see some daylight, where I see a way
23:47
Speaker 1: that I can make a difference for the defendant. I
23:49
Speaker 1: don't see it here. I'll tell you it's going to
23:50
Speaker 1: be really hard to explain a student ID or driver's
23:54
Speaker 1: license in a glove in a box in his parents' home. Guys,
23:58
Speaker 1: he's not the only one. Listen to our cut twenty
24:01
Speaker 1: in as in now, The defense argued that since Farber's
24:04
Speaker 1: body has never been found, no one knows if a
24:06
Speaker 1: murder was committed. Prosecutor's point at key evidence found on
24:09
Speaker 1: an sdcard owned by Goaliard, with photos they believe are
24:13
Speaker 1: a Farver's leg and foot that matcher tattoos, also photos
24:17
Speaker 1: of a blue and black tarp. They believe the picks
24:19
Speaker 1: were Goallyard's trophy for getting away with murder. This left
24:23
Speaker 1: foot depicted in this photograph is consistent, appears to be
24:28
Speaker 1: consistent with a foot that's an a state of decomposition. Okay,
24:35
Speaker 1: they're not the only ones. And that one was dealing
24:39
Speaker 1: with Shanna Golier and arguing that since Carrie Farmer's body
24:46
Speaker 1: was never found, no murder occurred, but they had photos, trophies,
24:50
Speaker 1: the defendant had taken the victim's decomposing body. Joining me,
24:56
Speaker 1: doctor Michelle Duprie you know her well now if you
25:01
Speaker 1: watched any portion of the Alexa Murdog double murder trial,
25:06
Speaker 1: you know doctor Michelle Dupresci is also working tirelessly regarding
25:12
Speaker 1: the eximation and the re autopsy and what that means
25:16
Speaker 1: in the case of Stephen Smith, also out of South
25:18
Speaker 1: Carolina Pathologists, medical examiner, former detective, and for US very
25:24
Speaker 1: significant author of homicide investigation field guide. You know, doctor Dupree,
25:29
Speaker 1: You've seen a lot of dead bodies, but the perp
25:33
Speaker 1: that keeps a trophy that, like we think Coburger did,
25:37
Speaker 1: Ed Guine, a serial killer, made masks with his victims' faces.
25:44
Speaker 1: Von Milott kept his victims camping equipment at least seven
25:50
Speaker 1: that we know of. He would start people camping, kill them,
25:55
Speaker 1: bury them in the forest, but yet keep little bits
25:57
Speaker 1: of their camping equipment. Listen to this one, doctor Dupree.
26:02
Speaker 1: Alex the Mangel made a scalp wig. Now that was
26:07
Speaker 1: up in Westchester, New York, but police originally deemed it
26:11
Speaker 1: to be a wig, but it was actually the victim's scalp,
26:15
Speaker 1: which the defendant wore as a wig when he grabbed
26:20
Speaker 1: his next victim. Okay, we've all seen hamible elector. That's
26:25
Speaker 1: nothing compared to the real life killers. Now, one guy
26:29
Speaker 1: John and George Hay kept his victim's dog. Much has
26:35
Speaker 1: been made about the dog in this case. The dog
26:38
Speaker 1: in this case is alive, and well and actually has
26:40
Speaker 1: to go fund me. Robert Hanson, as you know, kept
26:44
Speaker 1: his victim's jewelry. Doctor Dupree, Johnny Christie kept his victim's
26:49
Speaker 1: bodies hidden in the kitchen for a really long time.
26:53
Speaker 1: Rifkin kept all sorts of trophies like a license plate,
26:59
Speaker 1: under wear, bras, driver's licenses, jewelry, a library card, which
27:04
Speaker 1: is kind of like in this case we think as
27:06
Speaker 1: a student id Stanley Dean Baker kept his victims bones,
27:11
Speaker 1: only select bones, not all of the bones. Particularly he
27:16
Speaker 1: kept the finger bones. Dennis Nilsen kept body parts. Edmund
27:22
Speaker 1: Kemper kept his mother's head. Now that's it, And I
27:26
Speaker 1: could go on, I've got stacks and stacks of these guys,
27:28
Speaker 1: But what about it, Doctor Deperee, you ever seen anything
27:32
Speaker 1: like it? Nancy? I have actually, And to me, I
27:34
Speaker 1: knew you were going to say that that's not a shock.
27:36
Speaker 1: It may shock other people, but I knew you had, Okay,
27:38
Speaker 1: go ahead. These people are scary. I mean, these people
27:42
Speaker 1: are so out of touch with reality. I mean, how
27:46
Speaker 1: you even explain this. I've had serial killer cases where
27:49
Speaker 1: they did many of the same things like this, and
27:51
Speaker 1: they're just sound like scary. I do not want to
27:53
Speaker 1: meet these people anywhere, anytime, not in the dark alley
27:56
Speaker 1: or anywhere. You know, I'm starting to believe that, doctor
28:00
Speaker 1: Michelle Dupre, It's not that uncommon that killers keep mementos thoughts.
28:04
Speaker 1: You're right, Nancy, And during my time as an investigator,
28:09
Speaker 1: we actually saw some of that. I've even seen where
28:11
Speaker 1: some of the killers would have turned the funeral of
28:14
Speaker 1: their victim, even go so far as to put something
28:17
Speaker 1: strange or a taunting note in the casket. I mean,
28:20
Speaker 1: they do all sorts of strange things. It's just unbelievable.
28:23
Speaker 1: All this is swirling as we learn about a potential
28:26
Speaker 1: internal affairs investigation that could spell doom for the prosecution's case.
28:32
Speaker 1: Take a listen to our cut three sixty three. This
28:34
Speaker 1: is Amanda Eustace with WNAP. Documents of protection were filed
28:38
Speaker 1: prohibiting anyone from discussing the contents of the internal affairs
28:42
Speaker 1: investigation material. Regal says, it's hard to tell if this
28:45
Speaker 1: is good or bad news for either side trying the case.
28:49
Speaker 1: The last thing that a prosecution wants is to have
28:53
Speaker 1: to do a case twice, so they want to make
28:56
Speaker 1: sure that they have met the due process obligations and
29:01
Speaker 1: provided the things that they're required to provide because that's
29:04
Speaker 1: the only way that they get to do the case once. Now,
29:08
Speaker 1: it's unclear over we'll ever learn what the information is about.
29:11
Speaker 1: As of now, Brian Coburger remains locked up in Idaho jail.
29:14
Speaker 1: His preliminary hearing is scheduled for June twenty six. Kayalen
29:18
Speaker 1: Becker joining us from dailymail dot com, investigative reporter who
29:22
Speaker 1: has thoroughly analyzed all the aspects of what we know
29:26
Speaker 1: so far in the Brian Coburger prosecution. Caitlin, what can
29:30
Speaker 1: you tell us about a potential internal affairs investigation? You know, Nancy? Unfortunately,
29:35
Speaker 1: like you just heard, there really is not a lot
29:37
Speaker 1: of information out there. Basically, all we know is that
29:41
Speaker 1: an officer involved in the investigation had some sort of
29:46
Speaker 1: Brady violation was being investigated internally, and that's kind of it. Okay,
29:51
Speaker 1: let's talk about how devastating that would be to the police.
29:55
Speaker 1: But doctor Jerry Crossen, psychologists and faculty at Saint Leo University,
29:59
Speaker 1: I heard you jumping in earlier. What were you saying?
30:01
Speaker 1: I was talking about the hidden momento there. One of
30:05
Speaker 1: the key things to you. Look at is how secretive
30:09
Speaker 1: he placed you know, that's a value to him. So
30:12
Speaker 1: hiding it like he did to me, that's very significant, Okay,
30:16
Speaker 1: because now it becomes more personalized as a trophy or momento.
30:20
Speaker 1: I agree. I'm just imagining him going through all of
30:23
Speaker 1: the effort to find the right hiding place for the
30:25
Speaker 1: student id of one of the people he murdered. Oh yeah,
30:43
Speaker 1: time stories with Nancy Grace. I want to talk about
30:49
Speaker 1: Chris mcdonna, a former homicide detective now star of the
30:53
Speaker 1: Interview Room, also the director at the Coal Case Foundation
30:57
Speaker 1: dot org. Chris mcdonna an eternal, an eternal affairs investigation.
31:04
Speaker 1: In other words, a potential dirty cop that can spell
31:07
Speaker 1: doom for your case. And you would never believe the
31:11
Speaker 1: cops that are somehow dirty. One bad apple can spoil
31:18
Speaker 1: the whole bunch, and I'll never forget Chris McDonagh. I tried.
31:22
Speaker 1: It wasn't called child sex trafficking or human trafficking then,
31:26
Speaker 1: but I was trying to find a little girl that
31:30
Speaker 1: was taken it like age thirteen and pimped out, I
31:33
Speaker 1: mean pimped out. I couldn't find her, couldn't find her
31:36
Speaker 1: couldn't find her. I and three vice detectives to work
31:41
Speaker 1: in the streets and it was cold. Oh, it was
31:44
Speaker 1: so cold outside for months, so I would handle my
31:47
Speaker 1: plan arrangement calendar and then go out on the street
31:51
Speaker 1: looking for this girl. We finally found her. And by
31:53
Speaker 1: the way, when I did find her, she was in
31:56
Speaker 1: a flophouse down on Stuart Avenue in Atlanta, where everybody's
31:59
Speaker 1: sold dope and got hookers. I went in there and looked.
32:03
Speaker 1: There were like three or four women in there, and
32:04
Speaker 1: I came out, She's not in there. Why did you
32:07
Speaker 1: even bring me here? They went, it's her and the
32:10
Speaker 1: white boots. I went back in. This little girl, now fourteen,
32:13
Speaker 1: looked like a thirty five year old woman with the
32:16
Speaker 1: long weave and all the makeup and the high boots
32:20
Speaker 1: and the short skirt and the false syelashes. It was
32:23
Speaker 1: just like I couldn't eat when we got all that
32:26
Speaker 1: off of her. She looked like she had to have
32:28
Speaker 1: a little school uniform and go to school with my
32:30
Speaker 1: daughter Lucy. But that said, we got the prosecute, we
32:35
Speaker 1: got the conviction. It was about eight months later I
32:40
Speaker 1: was working and somebody had a TV going on Meete
32:43
Speaker 1: and I looked up and there was a sketch artist,
32:46
Speaker 1: Chris McDonough in a federal courtroom, and I went, wow,
32:51
Speaker 1: that kind of looked like Harrington, and I just kept
32:54
Speaker 1: going because you know the sketch artists work never looks
32:57
Speaker 1: like the person. Well, guess what it was. And his codefendants,
33:02
Speaker 1: my three vice guys that I had worked with every
33:06
Speaker 1: single day trying to find this little girl, as it
33:08
Speaker 1: turned out, when I wasn't around, would bust dope lords
33:14
Speaker 1: and take all their gold, jewelry and their money. And
33:17
Speaker 1: it was so bad the fans did a sting on
33:20
Speaker 1: the cops. Now how a jury cared about whether a
33:24
Speaker 1: doper lost his gold chain, I don't know, but they
33:26
Speaker 1: were prosecuted and convicted. So you think you know somebody,
33:32
Speaker 1: you don't know them at all. What can an internal
33:35
Speaker 1: affairs investigation due to a case, Well, it's as you've
33:41
Speaker 1: eloquently laid out, Nancy, as a prosecutors were snipmare potential
33:46
Speaker 1: and because you know, I actually got transferred into vice
33:51
Speaker 1: years ago in nineteen eighty four to eighty six because
33:54
Speaker 1: we had a guy who was taking favors on the
33:58
Speaker 1: side for trans moving drugs to certain people and show
34:04
Speaker 1: what this is about. The good news here is this
34:07
Speaker 1: is Brady Discovery, right, and you can explain that forever, Nancy,
34:11
Speaker 1: I have to go ahead. It was brought up by
34:15
Speaker 1: the state, So the state was made aware of it
34:18
Speaker 1: by the IA team, the Internal Affairs unit at the
34:21
Speaker 1: PD and says, hey, one of our guys, by the way,
34:25
Speaker 1: has this in his personnel file. You may want to
34:28
Speaker 1: reveal this to the defense while you can and show
34:32
Speaker 1: that's the upside of this, that the state brought it forward.
34:35
Speaker 1: The downside is we don't know exactly what it is.
34:38
Speaker 1: It could be just a citizens complaint about you know,
34:42
Speaker 1: the officer was rude to me as much as Hey,
34:46
Speaker 1: this guy's lied before, and you know, we need to
34:50
Speaker 1: make sure that we get ahead of this. So it
34:53
Speaker 1: could go either way. To Johnny Nacarate joining us former
34:56
Speaker 1: shaff sergeant now Crime and Construction and for instance team supervisor.
35:02
Speaker 1: You can find him at the Johnny law dot com.
35:05
Speaker 1: Johnny as a former sheriff sergeant. You know what, every
35:09
Speaker 1: cop that's dirty, they need to be thrown out and
35:12
Speaker 1: prosecuted themselves, because it gives the rest of law enforcement,
35:17
Speaker 1: who I believe are decent and honorable people a black eye,
35:22
Speaker 1: and it can ruin a prosecution. When a jury finds
35:27
Speaker 1: out a cop on the stand, a witness is dirty,
35:32
Speaker 1: they can it can ruin the whole thing. Just like
35:34
Speaker 1: an Alex Murlow. Let's use him again. Once he got
35:37
Speaker 1: on the stand and he lied, it came out that
35:40
Speaker 1: he had lied about being in those dog kennels at
35:43
Speaker 1: the time of the martyrs, he lost all credibility. It
35:47
Speaker 1: was over. He's a big fat liar. And if one
35:49
Speaker 1: cop is lying, are they all lying? That's what can
35:52
Speaker 1: go through the minds of the jury, Johnny and some
35:56
Speaker 1: law enforcement. I mean, once you lie, and I mean
35:59
Speaker 1: once you lie at all, whether it's an ia or
36:01
Speaker 1: it's in court, you're done. It's a rat in the year.
36:04
Speaker 1: Are going to be testifying anymore, and your career is
36:06
Speaker 1: probably going to be over. Forget their career. Who cares
36:09
Speaker 1: about their career? They did that to themselves. What about
36:12
Speaker 1: the state's case? What about a true verdict? I mean,
36:16
Speaker 1: didn't you see what happened in O. J. Simpson with
36:19
Speaker 1: one cop? Oh? This Mark Tate, Johnny Knocarato, Yeah, I'll
36:25
Speaker 1: tell you what a lion cop does. Johnny knocaratou is
36:29
Speaker 1: in law enforcement. Uh, I'm not sure they teach pronunciation
36:34
Speaker 1: necessarily of French colloquialism's foo pap. Let me enjoy my
36:39
Speaker 1: one tiny triumph please. Mark is always right. I got
36:44
Speaker 1: him on one thing. Let me enjoy the moment. For
36:46
Speaker 1: peace's sake. You're enjoyed it, I am. I'm gonna say
36:49
Speaker 1: it again, so pa woo. Okay, you know but so
36:53
Speaker 1: so um yeah, yeah yeah. If you have an officer
36:56
Speaker 1: on the stand upon whom the state relies, and the
37:00
Speaker 1: defense catches him in a lie and they're able to
37:03
Speaker 1: expose it for the first time in cross examination in
37:06
Speaker 1: front of a jury, it can have a massive impact. However,
37:10
Speaker 1: I would suggest that perhaps Johnny is a little bit
37:15
Speaker 1: wrong in thinking that the state doesn't rely on lying
37:20
Speaker 1: people all the time. Okay, Mark Tate, I did not
37:23
Speaker 1: given to start confidence about confidential informance. Of course, they're
37:29
Speaker 1: all dopers and bad guys themselves. That's who cis are,
37:33
Speaker 1: Mark Tay, As I have often said to juries, who
37:37
Speaker 1: do you think that bad guys hang out with nuns
37:41
Speaker 1: and priests and virgins? How do you think a confidential
37:44
Speaker 1: informant knows what the diapers are doing because he's a
37:47
Speaker 1: bad guy there. It's just that simple. And I've had
37:51
Speaker 1: to tell it to a jury like that many times.
37:53
Speaker 1: But also sometimes you got to go to hell to
37:57
Speaker 1: get your witness to put the devil in jail. And
38:00
Speaker 1: you're not think one cop can bring down the Brian
38:03
Speaker 1: Coburger case for the state, Mark Tate, I would recommend
38:08
Speaker 1: not even putting this guy on the stand and making
38:10
Speaker 1: my case without him. No, you can. But what I'm
38:13
Speaker 1: saying is is that you one a prosecutor can know
38:16
Speaker 1: they're going in with the disingenuous witness and explain it.
38:20
Speaker 1: It's not the fact that the witness may be shifty.
38:23
Speaker 1: The fact is that if the defense catches it by surprise,
38:27
Speaker 1: it's the element of surprise. You never want the other
38:30
Speaker 1: side to bring it out. You have to bring it out.
38:32
Speaker 1: I just would try every way I could to avoid
38:36
Speaker 1: him or her on the stand. Also, Caitlin Becker, we're
38:41
Speaker 1: learning that the connection between Coburger and at least one
38:46
Speaker 1: of the female victims possibly dates back to twenty twenty one.
38:50
Speaker 1: Now this is what we knew up until now. Take
38:53
Speaker 1: a listen to our cut three four eight. Our friends
38:55
Speaker 1: at WPVI, we also learned today that the Coburger may
38:59
Speaker 1: have even sent direct messages on Instagram to one are
39:03
Speaker 1: the victims two weeks before the murders, with things like, hey,
39:07
Speaker 1: how are you now? Weeks ago, investigators did reveal they
39:10
Speaker 1: found a knife sheath near one of the bodies. They
39:12
Speaker 1: recovers a man's DNA from that, and that was later
39:15
Speaker 1: connected to Coburger through DNA found at his parents' home
39:18
Speaker 1: and the Poconos, who was rated December twenty ninth, the
39:21
Speaker 1: same day that the warrant was executed on his apartment itself.
39:26
Speaker 1: The other thing is warrant does say. It says these
39:28
Speaker 1: murders appeared to have been planned rather than a crime
39:32
Speaker 1: that happened in a moment of conflict. Kaitlin Becker, investigative reporter,
39:37
Speaker 1: dailymail dot Com, Hey how are you all right? But
39:42
Speaker 1: now we're learning that his connection to at least one
39:47
Speaker 1: of these victims may go back all the way to
39:49
Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, before he even went to WSU, which
39:55
Speaker 1: is about nine ten miles away from the murder scene.
40:00
Speaker 1: They had to figure that out if in fact it's true. Kaitlinbecker,
40:04
Speaker 1: through what we are now learning, our search warrants on
40:07
Speaker 1: social media such as Google, Tender and staff. Also, we're
40:14
Speaker 1: learning that the debit and credit cards of the victims
40:19
Speaker 1: and the defendant were taken, I mean all of their records.
40:23
Speaker 1: Were they at the same restaurant at the same time.
40:26
Speaker 1: They're trying to make all of those connections, and these
40:29
Speaker 1: warrants are dating back to at least twenty twenty one.
40:33
Speaker 1: What do you make of it? You know, this makes
40:35
Speaker 1: a lot of sense to me because we've been wondering
40:38
Speaker 1: from the get go what the connection is between Koburger
40:41
Speaker 1: and the victims, and of course how far back it goes.
40:44
Speaker 1: And it really does seem like based on these search warrants,
40:47
Speaker 1: and you mentioned a few of them, but there were
40:49
Speaker 1: more than sixty that had been sent out, everything from
40:53
Speaker 1: like you said, the bank accounts to eBay, to bunch
40:56
Speaker 1: of dating apps all from Matt Group like Kinder, all
41:00
Speaker 1: the metaproforms read it, Snapchat. All of these search warrants
41:04
Speaker 1: have been sent out for the three female victims, and
41:08
Speaker 1: for Coburger. It doesn't seem that even shape and name
41:13
Speaker 1: was searched and as well within these documents, because it
41:17
Speaker 1: looks like he just happened to have been really at
41:20
Speaker 1: the wrong place at the wrong time, and that it
41:22
Speaker 1: was the female victims that were at least one of
41:25
Speaker 1: them the targets. So going back to January twenty twenty
41:29
Speaker 1: one would really indicate to me that this had been planned,
41:34
Speaker 1: obviously for far longer than we had even anticipated. My
41:38
Speaker 1: biggest question now, Nancy, would be when de Sea decided
41:42
Speaker 1: to apply to Washington State University? Is it before that
41:48
Speaker 1: or after that, because it would be the most reasonable
41:52
Speaker 1: to me that perhaps he had already applied, and he
41:54
Speaker 1: had gone out and checked it out and been in
41:56
Speaker 1: the area, and maybe that was the first time he
41:59
Speaker 1: ran into I agree that is the most reasonable, But
42:03
Speaker 1: somehow I don't know that reason applies to people like
42:07
Speaker 1: Brian Coburger. Now that we know he actually kept a memento,
42:10
Speaker 1: a memento of the murders, guys, we wait as the
42:14
Speaker 1: evidence unfolds. Nancy Gray's crime story, signing off Goodbye Friend,