Latest / The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show / Why People Cheat: The Psychology of Infidelity, Guilt & Healing After Betrayal | E4

Transcript

Why People Cheat: The Psychology of Infidelity, Guilt & Healing After Betrayal | E4 · The Dr. Sarah Hensley Show

0:00
Speaker 1: People aren't random, They're incredibly predictable. This is a show
0:05
Speaker 1: about the science of human behavior, relationships, emotional healing, and
0:09
Speaker 1: the hidden patterns running our lives that most of us
0:12
Speaker 1: don't even realize exist, because once you see the pattern,
0:16
Speaker 1: you can finally change it. I'm doctor Sarah.
0:19
Speaker 2: Hensley and I'm Rana Butcher.
0:22
Speaker 1: You think your life is random.
0:24
Speaker 2: It's not. Welcome to the Doctor Sarah Hnsley Show.
0:30
Speaker 1: If your partner had an affair, how much of that
0:33
Speaker 1: affair do you think they spent feeling guilty? Ten percent,
0:38
Speaker 1: half the time the whole time. Science has answered that question,
0:43
Speaker 1: and we are going to get to it in a
0:44
Speaker 1: little bit. Today's episode is about betrayal trauma, one of
0:48
Speaker 1: the most painful things a human can experience, and there's
0:52
Speaker 1: a lot of science behind this about why people stay
0:56
Speaker 1: after betrayal, why people commit betrayal trauma, and.
1:00
Speaker 2: Why guilt or whether guilt is actually felt when the
1:05
Speaker 2: other partner.
1:05
Speaker 1: Is doing Yeah, we're going to answer that.
1:07
Speaker 2: And something we're both very familiar with.
1:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, unfortunately not from our current husbands.
1:13
Speaker 2: No, they're great, Yeah, they're awesome.
1:15
Speaker 1: They and cheat In a million years, they'd be dumb.
1:17
Speaker 2: And they'd be dead. Copy that, are you guys listening
1:24
Speaker 2: back there? You would be dead. So I think everybody
1:28
Speaker 2: who's ever been cheated on really they wondered this. Did
1:31
Speaker 2: they actually feel guilty when they were doing it?
1:33
Speaker 1: Yeah, well we're going to answer that question. But let's
1:36
Speaker 1: talk about what betrayal really is first and why it's
1:39
Speaker 1: so painful. And I picked this as the topic for
1:42
Speaker 1: today because it is just coming up like wildfire in
1:45
Speaker 1: my practice. I mean, client after client after client is
1:49
Speaker 1: dealing with it, and I am like, is something in
1:52
Speaker 1: the water or is society shifting more? What is going
1:56
Speaker 1: on that is causing this? Is it a post COVID
2:01
Speaker 1: rebound situation? I don't know. But betrayal is a really
2:06
Speaker 1: unique psychological injury that is different from every other type
2:10
Speaker 1: of psychological injury because the person that you are supposed
2:14
Speaker 1: to trust, who is supposed to care for you, who
2:19
Speaker 1: you are supposed to be able to depend on, is
2:22
Speaker 1: also then the source of the pain and the deception.
2:28
Speaker 1: And that is uniquely painful. Yeah, And a lot of
2:32
Speaker 1: people experience betrayal trauma and childhood, and that, of course
2:37
Speaker 1: we know leads to fearful, avoidant attachment. Most of the
2:40
Speaker 1: time where the child is both trying to seek connection
2:46
Speaker 1: with the person that is supposed to help them stay
2:49
Speaker 1: alive and love them and comfort them and nurture them,
2:52
Speaker 1: and then that person also becomes a source of fear
2:55
Speaker 1: and pain, and that is a betrayal to the parent
2:58
Speaker 1: child relationship. Child imprints that as this inability to trust
3:04
Speaker 1: people going forward in intimacy, and they carry that with
3:07
Speaker 1: them into their adult relationships. And you don't have to
3:11
Speaker 1: have betrayal trauma to have betrayal in your adult relationships,
3:15
Speaker 1: but it is predictive. Fearful avoidance are most likely to
3:18
Speaker 1: pick partners that eventually cheat on them, lie to them,
3:22
Speaker 1: betray them. And there's all kinds of betrayal, not just infidelity.
3:27
Speaker 1: I have clients that are going through financial betrayal where
3:31
Speaker 1: their partners have racked up a ton of debt and
3:34
Speaker 1: not told them, second mortgaged the house, or who has
3:42
Speaker 1: a gambling addiction. There's all sorts of types of betrayal.
3:46
Speaker 1: But we're going to focus a little bit more on
3:48
Speaker 1: infidelity because I think that's the most common thing people
3:51
Speaker 1: experience when they come across my desk, and I want
3:54
Speaker 1: people to know that betrayal is really neurological and something
4:00
Speaker 1: very interesting that we're going to cover, the same neurological, cognitive,
4:08
Speaker 1: and social processes that allow people to have affairs, to
4:13
Speaker 1: kind of block out and compartmentalize their empathy for their
4:18
Speaker 1: partner and to convince themselves that this is okay are
4:22
Speaker 1: the same psychological processes that people who stay with cheaters
4:27
Speaker 1: also experience.
4:28
Speaker 2: Interesting. Yeah, huh, Why.
4:32
Speaker 1: Because psychology doesn't just stop working because you are the
4:37
Speaker 1: victim of the affair and not the perpetrator. Right, And
4:42
Speaker 1: so I am very open about my stance on cheating
4:46
Speaker 1: and how I do not do not suggest to my
4:52
Speaker 1: clients that they stay. Yeah, and that is because I
4:56
Speaker 1: would rather err on the side of them having to
5:00
Speaker 1: rebuild their lives in a safe environment versus risking re
5:06
Speaker 1: traumatization and reoffense.
5:09
Speaker 2: Yeah. I talk about how you often call it a
5:12
Speaker 2: character flaw.
5:13
Speaker 1: It is a character deficit. It's a character deficit. And
5:17
Speaker 1: I made a video about this on TikTok and it
5:21
Speaker 1: got a lot, it got some well, it's got a
5:25
Speaker 1: lot of support, but it got some pushback, specifically by
5:28
Speaker 1: one psychologist too. She's wrong. I mean, I hate to
5:32
Speaker 1: just call her out like that she just doesn't know
5:33
Speaker 1: the science. She's coming from a completely just a clinical
5:36
Speaker 1: lens where she helps people rebuild, and that's fine, there
5:39
Speaker 1: can be validity there. But science helps us understand what
5:44
Speaker 1: usually happens, not just what can happen, right, And most
5:50
Speaker 1: people can't rebuild. They can't if they stay, they're miserable.
5:55
Speaker 1: If they say they're okay, usually we find out there's
5:59
Speaker 1: some self reports there. They're usually not as okay as
6:02
Speaker 1: they report they are pretending. Yeah, pretty much, So can
6:07
Speaker 1: it happen?
6:08
Speaker 2: Yeah?
6:08
Speaker 1: Do I believe there are couples that have rebuilt and
6:10
Speaker 1: they feel okay about their marriage. Yes, But you cannot
6:12
Speaker 1: convince me under any circumstances that those people who have
6:16
Speaker 1: been cheated on don't go the rest of their lives
6:19
Speaker 1: occasionally wondering if their partner's doing it again.
6:22
Speaker 2: Yeah, Or I just could never imagine it ever being
6:25
Speaker 2: the same, ever being what it was before.
6:28
Speaker 1: It's not. It's like you break a vase and you
6:29
Speaker 1: try to glow it back together. It's not gonna look
6:31
Speaker 1: the same or feel to be cracks. There's going to
6:33
Speaker 1: be cracks. There's scars. That is human nature. And so
6:37
Speaker 1: I really want to talk about a little bit more
6:39
Speaker 1: about betrayal trauma in general, and Jennifer Freed's work is
6:43
Speaker 1: just very pivotal here where of course, when you're a
6:47
Speaker 1: child and you have betrayal trauma, you can't move away
6:50
Speaker 1: from your caregiver. You have you maybe you move away
6:53
Speaker 1: from them in the moment where if they're yelling at you,
6:58
Speaker 1: or you know they're drunk and having a fit or
7:01
Speaker 1: something there's some kind of dysfunction, you can go upstairs
7:03
Speaker 1: and hide or whatever, but you can't really get out
7:06
Speaker 1: of the house. You do have that choice in an
7:09
Speaker 1: adult relationship most of the time, unless there's some kind
7:12
Speaker 1: of course of control, kidnapping type of situation. You have
7:18
Speaker 1: the autonomy and the volition to leave your relationship. But
7:22
Speaker 1: people do not. And as someone who experienced this, I
7:27
Speaker 1: do think it shapes the way I view betrayal. But
7:29
Speaker 1: we have enough scientific evidence to show that betrayal blindness
7:33
Speaker 1: is real that most of the time, if your partner
7:36
Speaker 1: is having an affair, there are signs and the partner
7:39
Speaker 1: ignores them. The partner experiences this construct called betrayal blindness,
7:45
Speaker 1: where their brain literally makes a decision to filter out
7:51
Speaker 1: the red flags or explain them away because to accept
7:57
Speaker 1: them and to move towards them and to uncover this
8:02
Speaker 1: would risk their entire life changing. Sure, And so the
8:08
Speaker 1: brain decides, without their conscious awareness, that they have to
8:13
Speaker 1: ignore these signs and red flags. And I did that.
8:17
Speaker 2: I did that.
8:18
Speaker 1: I did it, and so I know that it happens.
8:22
Speaker 1: And it was a pivotal moment when I finally said,
8:26
Speaker 1: I can't do that anymore. But it's too painful. It's like,
8:31
Speaker 1: you don't want to know.
8:32
Speaker 2: I'm so curious, though, even when the signs are blatant,
8:35
Speaker 2: like blatant signs, Oh yeah, so did I Like I
8:38
Speaker 2: remember finding a voicemail from another girl on one of
8:44
Speaker 2: my ex's phones, and it was literally her talking about
8:50
Speaker 2: how they'd just been together that weekend. Yeah, we were
8:53
Speaker 2: living together at the time.
8:55
Speaker 1: Oh yeah.
8:56
Speaker 2: Now it was a blow up. It was a blow up,
8:58
Speaker 2: no doubt. But I still stayed.
9:02
Speaker 1: Man, I get it, I get it. The evidence was
9:04
Speaker 1: in my face too. Girl, You're not the only one.
9:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I.
9:08
Speaker 1: Think what's so painful about betrayal not just this idea
9:12
Speaker 1: that the person that you love also is the person
9:15
Speaker 1: now that harms you, and you're in this paradoxical situation
9:18
Speaker 1: where you're pushing and pulling your own conscience and your
9:22
Speaker 1: own sense of self of do I want to stay
9:25
Speaker 1: or do I want to go? Because you love them,
9:27
Speaker 1: yet they've destroyed you. Your entire view of the world
9:33
Speaker 1: is changed. And betrayal is not just this unique psychological
9:38
Speaker 1: injury that deeply affects the self in terms of should
9:42
Speaker 1: I stay or should I go and affecting their relationship,
9:45
Speaker 1: It affects your whole view of reality. There's the shattered
9:49
Speaker 1: assumptions theory Janoff Bowman's research, where generally people before they've
9:57
Speaker 1: been betrayed have this view of the world that the
10:00
Speaker 1: world is benevolent and kind and that people are pretty
10:03
Speaker 1: much good, and that bad things happen to others, and
10:06
Speaker 1: that you're generally safe, and that is fundamentally broken. When
10:13
Speaker 1: someone has betrayed you. Your whole map of reality is
10:18
Speaker 1: now different. Yeah, and that is really profound, profoundly life changing.
10:27
Speaker 1: You all of a sudden don't know if you can
10:29
Speaker 1: trust yourself because you missed the signs. You had betrayal blindness.
10:34
Speaker 1: You ignored them and then you look back. And this
10:37
Speaker 1: is why people become obsessed with timelines and wanting to
10:42
Speaker 1: know the truth and wanting to know every little detail
10:45
Speaker 1: about their partner's affairs, because they're not just trying to,
10:50
Speaker 1: you know, find out every detail so that nothing comes
10:54
Speaker 1: out in the future. That's not what they're trying to do.
10:56
Speaker 1: They're trying to create sort of a map of what
10:59
Speaker 1: else did I mean.
11:02
Speaker 2: Makes sense?
11:03
Speaker 1: What fundamentally went wrong with my perception? What was right
11:08
Speaker 1: under my nose and I didn't see it? And so
11:11
Speaker 1: they become obsessed with the details because they can't trust
11:14
Speaker 1: themselves and they have to look back and go, Okay,
11:18
Speaker 1: where did my sense of trust in myself and my
11:23
Speaker 1: own intuition fail me?
11:24
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, intuition is a big part of it too.
11:29
Speaker 2: I think it is which you know, intuition, I think
11:32
Speaker 2: is something that as we get older, is easier to
11:36
Speaker 2: recognize and follow, especially in women. I think our you know,
11:43
Speaker 2: our intuition is one of the strongest tools that we have.
11:46
Speaker 2: But getting in tune with it takes time and pain right.
11:50
Speaker 2: It takes pain.
11:51
Speaker 1: Right, because that's what betrayal blindness does. It makes you
11:55
Speaker 1: ignore your intuition to survive. Sometimes you're survival requires ignorance.
12:02
Speaker 1: If your survival is based in I have built this family,
12:08
Speaker 1: I have tied finances, we have this house together, we
12:12
Speaker 1: have this life together, we have this twenty year maybe
12:15
Speaker 1: history together. Yeah, your life blowing up is not easy.
12:19
Speaker 2: Here's what I couldn't imagine because it was different for us, Right,
12:22
Speaker 2: it was like there were subtle signs. Here's what would
12:25
Speaker 2: be the biggest blow of all if you married someone
12:29
Speaker 2: and let's just use Josh for example. Like Josh's whole personality,
12:36
Speaker 2: his moral compass, all of these things would never point
12:41
Speaker 2: yes to the fact that he would ever cheat, right,
12:44
Speaker 2: and then let's just say, hypothetically, just one day he
12:47
Speaker 2: did that. Because it was like with my ex, I knew.
12:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, and they were yeah, because there were other red flags, right,
12:56
Speaker 1: you know, they were inherently not good people.
12:58
Speaker 2: Right exactly. But with somebody that you marry that you
13:02
Speaker 2: feel is just like hung the moon, right, would never
13:05
Speaker 2: do this to me? And then they do it.
13:08
Speaker 1: Woo. Yeah, that's a shattered reality. It really is. And
13:11
Speaker 1: I see people every week that are going through that
13:14
Speaker 1: they have a completely shattered reality. They said this my
13:17
Speaker 1: husband or my wife was the last person I thought
13:19
Speaker 1: would do this.
13:20
Speaker 2: I just cann't imagine.
13:22
Speaker 1: Yeah, So why do people do it? Yeah, why do that, That's
13:25
Speaker 1: the next question. They do it for a lot of
13:29
Speaker 1: different reasons, And you know, this is the one area
13:35
Speaker 1: where I cannot mentally simulate someone's reality. I think I
13:40
Speaker 1: was drawn to the field of psychology. I was drawn
13:42
Speaker 1: into coaching because I have very good mental simulation. So
13:46
Speaker 1: when I have a client sitting in front of me,
13:47
Speaker 1: even if they're da or they're incredibly anxious, or they've
13:51
Speaker 1: done some kind of crazy thing in their relationship, I
13:54
Speaker 1: can almost step into their mental map and I can
13:57
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, I don't agree with what you did obviously,
14:00
Speaker 1: and I understand the dysfunction, but I can kind of
14:04
Speaker 1: map out how they got there, and I can kind
14:06
Speaker 1: of empathize with the feelings that maybe drove them to
14:09
Speaker 1: this or that. I have this almost psychic, weird ability
14:13
Speaker 1: to mentally simulate others realities. When it comes to cheating,
14:16
Speaker 1: I cannot do it. There's this block that does not
14:20
Speaker 1: allow me to put myself in the cheater's shoes, and
14:24
Speaker 1: I think it does have to do with the fact
14:25
Speaker 1: that I was betrayed so much in my first marriage.
14:28
Speaker 1: If I think about cheating on Donald, I physically get ill.
14:32
Speaker 1: My very first thought is the devastation that he would
14:35
Speaker 1: have the crushing guilt that I would have. I wouldn't
14:42
Speaker 1: be able to function in life with that amount of
14:44
Speaker 1: crushing guilt, and so I have no desire to do that.
14:48
Speaker 1: But I just can't mentally simulate the process of someone cheating.
14:52
Speaker 1: So I just have to go with the theory here.
14:56
Speaker 1: I can't really speak from a I can understand and
15:00
Speaker 1: how they got here, I can't mentally simulate it. And
15:04
Speaker 1: so it's weird for me having this power and pretty
15:06
Speaker 1: much all other circumstances, even with like sociopaths and psychopaths,
15:11
Speaker 1: because I know how they develop, and I know that
15:13
Speaker 1: it's fundamentally a personality disorder. I you know, it's like
15:18
Speaker 1: I can reconcile while they're disordered, right, they have this
15:21
Speaker 1: profound mental illness. But with cheaters, they're average people most
15:26
Speaker 1: of the time. Of course, we have narcissistic cheaters and
15:29
Speaker 1: you know, cheaters that have psychopathy and all of that,
15:32
Speaker 1: of course, but the majority of people who cheat are
15:35
Speaker 1: just your average Joe. So not being able to step
15:39
Speaker 1: into the average Joe's mentality for me is quite interesting.
15:43
Speaker 2: So how do they get there?
15:44
Speaker 1: Yeah? So motivated reasoning is one, and this is the
15:50
Speaker 1: idea where subconsciously your brain wants to reach a conclusion
15:56
Speaker 1: and reaches the conclusion before you have any evidence, and
15:59
Speaker 1: then confirmation bias comes in and you selectively filter out
16:03
Speaker 1: evidence that confirms that conclusion. So the conclusion might be
16:09
Speaker 1: I deserve this because my spouse neglects me. Right, So
16:14
Speaker 1: now when I look at my marriage, everything I see
16:18
Speaker 1: in my marriage is through that particular conclusion. I notice
16:22
Speaker 1: every little misattunement when maybe there's a lot of other
16:26
Speaker 1: things your spouse does that aren't really reflective that they
16:30
Speaker 1: neglect you. Maybe they're not as neglectful as you're filtering
16:34
Speaker 1: that relationship to be in this moment because you are
16:36
Speaker 1: trying to justify the affair to yourself.
16:39
Speaker 2: And one example would be like a partner that doesn't
16:41
Speaker 2: have sex with you. Maybe there's been a long period
16:44
Speaker 2: of time with no sexual intimacy, and so they justify,
16:48
Speaker 2: you know, I have needs, I have physical needs, and
16:51
Speaker 2: I'm just getting those physical needs met.
16:53
Speaker 1: Right. But the question they should be asking themselves is
16:56
Speaker 1: why is my marriage sexless? And how am I contributing
16:59
Speaker 1: to that?
17:00
Speaker 2: Yes, that's the key.
17:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, a lot of times they don't they don't go there.
17:08
Speaker 1: There's cognitive dissonance theory and self justification theory, and these
17:12
Speaker 1: are two related concepts. Cognitive dissonance is one of the
17:16
Speaker 1: oldest theories in social psychology. I won't say one of
17:19
Speaker 1: the oldest, but a very very old theory from nineteen
17:21
Speaker 1: fifty eight. This was Leon Festinger's work. Where people cannot
17:26
Speaker 1: have two competing attitudes and beliefs at the same time
17:30
Speaker 1: or else it causes this internal attension called dissonance. And
17:34
Speaker 1: this explains why people actually treat you worse after they've
17:38
Speaker 1: cheated on you. So we actually have data from the
17:41
Speaker 1: science that after you've been cheated on, the person who
17:44
Speaker 1: cheats ends up treating you worse over time. If there's
17:48
Speaker 1: this honeymoon period where they're sorry and they want to rebuild,
17:52
Speaker 1: what we see is that's short lived that they get
17:57
Speaker 1: after a period of weeks or months kind of tired
18:00
Speaker 1: of being trying to make up for yeah, trying to
18:03
Speaker 1: make up for it being the person who has created
18:06
Speaker 1: the betrayal. So cognitive dissonance would look like I have
18:10
Speaker 1: to believe that I'm a good spouse, that I'm a
18:12
Speaker 1: good person, yet I'm having an affair and lying and
18:16
Speaker 1: deceiving my spouse. Those are opposing belief systems, and Festinger said,
18:22
Speaker 1: we have to reconcile it. So something has to be reconciled.
18:27
Speaker 1: You have to kind of go one lane or the other.
18:29
Speaker 1: So if you want to keep that I Am a
18:31
Speaker 1: good person belief, which most people will, then they have
18:35
Speaker 1: to make the behavior justifiable somehow, and so they will
18:43
Speaker 1: make it partner's fault and they will then take that
18:47
Speaker 1: out on the partner over time, even if there's this
18:50
Speaker 1: initial i'm sorry remorse and as you're going to learn later,
18:57
Speaker 1: people are generally only remorseful after they get caught, yeah,
19:01
Speaker 1: which is sad well.
19:03
Speaker 2: And I think that was the one thing that the
19:06
Speaker 2: other psychologists that we won't name, I can't even think
19:09
Speaker 2: of her name.
19:10
Speaker 1: Oh, I know her name. Happened to block her, yeah,
19:13
Speaker 1: because she trold me so bad on my accounts and
19:16
Speaker 1: it was just so icky, and it.
19:19
Speaker 2: Was like, you know, but that was when she That
19:21
Speaker 2: was one thing she argued with you on she did.
19:24
Speaker 1: She said, no, spouses feel guilty. I'm like, not, according
19:27
Speaker 1: to all the data we have, not until we get caught.
19:29
Speaker 1: According to thousands and thousands upon thousands of people that
19:33
Speaker 1: we've studied. No, they don't. Maybe in your practice you
19:36
Speaker 1: think that they do.
19:37
Speaker 2: Or maybe they're just saying it.
19:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe they said I felt bad the whole time
19:43
Speaker 1: and they really didn't.
19:45
Speaker 2: But my question is if they felt bad the whole time,
19:47
Speaker 2: then why continue to do it?
19:49
Speaker 1: Yeah, you don't. You stop doing things that torture you
19:52
Speaker 1: on the inside. Guilt inherently makes you stop something. It's
19:56
Speaker 1: purpose as an emotion is for you to change your behavior.
20:00
Speaker 1: So if you continue the behavior, you obviously aren't feeling
20:02
Speaker 1: that guilty.
20:03
Speaker 2: Yeah. I can attest to this. I mean, let's just
20:05
Speaker 2: take smoking for example, Like I can. I can feel
20:09
Speaker 2: tremendous guilt from smoking, and eventually it might not catch
20:13
Speaker 2: up to me in a month, two months, three months,
20:15
Speaker 2: four months, six months, but eventually it catches up to
20:18
Speaker 2: me and I have to stop the behavior because I
20:21
Speaker 2: just can't take it anymore. Even if I don't have
20:23
Speaker 2: any physical ailments that are bothering me, it's just the
20:26
Speaker 2: guilt alone ends up eating me alive. Yeah, so I
20:30
Speaker 2: mean you think, I mean, think about people who have
20:32
Speaker 2: had affairs. I mean, and I'm sure you've experienced this
20:34
Speaker 2: in your practice for years, years, did you have one
20:39
Speaker 2: that had like an affair for like a decade?
20:41
Speaker 1: Oh? Yes, How can you go on? Moral disengagement which
20:47
Speaker 1: is a theory by Alfred Bandera who is a social
20:52
Speaker 1: cognitive psychologist pioneer in the field of social cognitive research,
20:56
Speaker 1: and his moral disengagement theory that suggests that people can
21:02
Speaker 1: justify the act by disengaging from their moralities selectively. And
21:10
Speaker 1: there's a number of ways that he says this can happen.
21:13
Speaker 1: One is kind of moral justification. I deserved this. We
21:18
Speaker 1: just kind of talked about self justification. I had deserved this.
21:21
Speaker 1: You know, my partner's been ignoring me or neglectful, or
21:24
Speaker 1: doesn't meet my needs or they don't love me anyway,
21:27
Speaker 1: So why does it matter. There's something called euphemistic labeling,
21:31
Speaker 1: which I think is really interesting. This is downplaying the
21:34
Speaker 1: affair in words. So it was just sex, it didn't
21:39
Speaker 1: mean anything, or it was just one night, or it
21:44
Speaker 1: was you know, everybody was drunk. It's really just like
21:50
Speaker 1: downplaying it in the way that you describe it. We
21:53
Speaker 1: don't use the word affair, we don't use the word cheating.
21:56
Speaker 1: It was just you know, we were just close.
21:59
Speaker 2: Yeah, just emotional that's the worst one.
22:05
Speaker 1: There's advantageous comparison where people just try to minimize it. Well,
22:11
Speaker 1: I didn't leave the family. I could have left you
22:13
Speaker 1: for her, but I didn't. Oh, that's like a that's
22:16
Speaker 1: like manipulative.
22:18
Speaker 2: That's like throwing fuel on the fire.
22:20
Speaker 1: Yeah, at least I didn't choose her. I'm choosing you, Okay, Yeah, yeah,
22:28
Speaker 1: that makes it better.
22:29
Speaker 2: Yeah.
22:29
Speaker 1: Run.
22:30
Speaker 2: They say that run.
22:32
Speaker 1: Distortion of consequences, which is distorting the harm that they've caused.
22:38
Speaker 1: You know, it's not that big of a deal with
22:39
Speaker 1: they don't know won't hurt them, So they convince themselves,
22:43
Speaker 1: you know, that the consequences won't be as severe because
22:46
Speaker 1: they'll never find out. So what does it matter because
22:49
Speaker 1: what they don't know won't hurt them. Devaluing the target,
22:54
Speaker 1: I think is part of moral disengagement that makes me
22:58
Speaker 1: the most ill, which is essentially a different way of
23:05
Speaker 1: blaming them or even dehumanizing them. So instead of saying
23:11
Speaker 1: my wife, they'll say my spouse, you know, or instead
23:17
Speaker 1: of saying, you know, I'm having an affair, I'm seeing someone,
23:23
Speaker 1: and being able to just devalue the partner that they're
23:30
Speaker 1: cheating on in some way like they you know, not
23:36
Speaker 1: just that they deserved it, but they're an obstacle to
23:40
Speaker 1: my happiness, right, or they're less than they're less than. Yeah,
23:44
Speaker 1: they gained so much weight. I know my husband was
23:48
Speaker 1: talking about. I don't know who it was, obviously I
23:50
Speaker 1: wouldn't say who it was, but there was somebody that
23:53
Speaker 1: he knows that just divorced his wife because she gained
23:55
Speaker 1: weight and he wasn't attracted to her anymore. So she's
23:59
Speaker 1: less than because she had gained weight, therefore she deserved it. Therefore,
24:03
Speaker 1: you know, she's devalued.
24:05
Speaker 2: That's awful. Yeah, don't marry that person.
24:09
Speaker 1: How do you know? Right? And I guess everybody's.
24:11
Speaker 2: Gonna get fat and ugly eventually, Like I mean to
24:14
Speaker 2: some degree, you know, I mean, you have to be
24:16
Speaker 2: in love with somebody's soul for sure. Actually that was
24:19
Speaker 2: a question I asked to Josh on vacation. I was like,
24:21
Speaker 2: do you love my soul more than you love my body?
24:23
Speaker 2: He's like, I'm like, because one day I'm going to
24:28
Speaker 2: be fat and ugly and old, and you know, of
24:31
Speaker 2: course he was like, of course, yes anyway, yeah, but
24:35
Speaker 2: that's that what makes me ill too.
24:37
Speaker 1: Yeah, just kind of dehumanizing them. It's like they were
24:40
Speaker 1: an obstacle in my life, or they gained weight, or I.
24:43
Speaker 2: Mean sometimes even like a wife will have a baby,
24:47
Speaker 2: or a wife will have a baby and they'll they're
24:49
Speaker 2: like not attracted to them anymore, and they'll use that, well,
24:53
Speaker 2: she had the baby and she only cared about the baby,
24:55
Speaker 2: and she gained all this weight, and you know she
24:57
Speaker 2: had no sex drive. I mean yeah, and not that
25:00
Speaker 2: this is just men, of course, you.
25:02
Speaker 1: Know, women do it too, oh gosh. And I almost think,
25:07
Speaker 1: for whatever reason, maybe it's society and the cultural messages
25:12
Speaker 1: that men are more likely to cheat, which they are,
25:15
Speaker 1: but just by a little bit, just by like a hair.
25:18
Speaker 1: It's not even really statistically different in terms of men
25:21
Speaker 1: and women cheating. For some reason, you know, women are
25:26
Speaker 1: able to villainize men as the cheaters when women cheat
25:29
Speaker 1: almost just as much. I see a lot of men who,
25:35
Speaker 1: maybe because of that cultural message, it just blows their
25:38
Speaker 1: mind that their wife did this, and they have a
25:41
Speaker 1: harder time recovering. Yeah, I could see why, maybe because
25:45
Speaker 1: they have this vast oppression hormone, which is the protector
25:48
Speaker 1: jealousy hormone, which women don't really pump out. Men have
25:54
Speaker 1: this sort of like she's mine protector garter chemical, and
26:02
Speaker 1: that's probably why they take it a little bit harder.
26:05
Speaker 1: I think females are more likely to fawn and stay,
26:10
Speaker 1: whereas men are less likely to stay. I don't know
26:13
Speaker 1: if there's any science on that. I actually don't know that,
26:15
Speaker 1: but that's just in my practice what I see.
26:18
Speaker 2: Let's talk talk about compartmentalization, because I know that's another
26:22
Speaker 2: piece too, but I want you to dig into it
26:24
Speaker 2: a little bit more.
26:25
Speaker 1: Yes, So, an overwhelming majority of people that cheat are
26:31
Speaker 1: emotionally unavailable, have some kind of avoidant attachment, most likely
26:36
Speaker 1: dismissive avoidance and dismissive avoidance have an insane ability to
26:41
Speaker 1: suppress their emotions because it was a survival strategy in
26:44
Speaker 1: childhood where their caregivers emotionally neglected them, and so they
26:49
Speaker 1: learned to suppress their emotions from a very young age,
26:53
Speaker 1: and that allows them to wall themselves off from their
26:56
Speaker 1: emotional experiences so they can kind of step into the
26:59
Speaker 1: affair where wall off their emotions from their spouse, step
27:04
Speaker 1: out of the affair and back into their marriage, and
27:08
Speaker 1: wall off their feelings for the affair partner, so they
27:11
Speaker 1: can literally live this double life within side of themselves,
27:17
Speaker 1: which most people who do not have that type of
27:20
Speaker 1: compartmentalization ability find incredibly foreign and incredibly unbelievable, which it
27:28
Speaker 1: really is. As somebody who is a deep feeler, as
27:32
Speaker 1: somebody who is more prone to the anxiety side of things,
27:38
Speaker 1: I would not be able to stop thinking about what
27:41
Speaker 1: I was doing. There is no universe under which I
27:44
Speaker 1: would be able to betray the person I loved and
27:48
Speaker 1: dissociate from that feeling of guilt. But some people can.
27:53
Speaker 1: Some people can.
27:54
Speaker 2: And why is the DA too or why are they
27:58
Speaker 2: able to go to the affair partner and be more
28:03
Speaker 2: emotionally vulnerable.
28:05
Speaker 1: Yes, and this is what crushes their partners when they
28:09
Speaker 1: find out about the affair and they find out that
28:11
Speaker 1: a fair partner knew about X, Y.
28:13
Speaker 2: And Z thing or like I didn't even know that.
28:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's because the affair partner is low stakes.
28:21
Speaker 1: There's no real commitment at that point, right, you're married, Yeah,
28:26
Speaker 1: you're not like double committed, right, this is an affair. Yeah,
28:30
Speaker 1: They kind of say, well, we call it what it is,
28:33
Speaker 1: which is an affair. And when the commitment is low,
28:37
Speaker 1: their ability to be vulnerable increases. So commitment is a
28:42
Speaker 1: big trigger, and their triggers suppress their emotions. So when
28:46
Speaker 1: commitment is low, stakes are low, the less they care
28:49
Speaker 1: about the partner, the more vulnerable they can be. So
28:52
Speaker 1: the more they love their spouse, the more they care
28:55
Speaker 1: about their spouse, the more they actually push them away
28:57
Speaker 1: and deactivate from them. That is the nature of dismissive avoidance.
29:02
Speaker 1: And so they can be vulnerable with this affair partner
29:05
Speaker 1: because it's a human need that they have suppressed their
29:07
Speaker 1: entire lives. And then when they have this affair and
29:10
Speaker 1: they can do this kind of vulnerability dump with this
29:13
Speaker 1: low stakes partner, it feels wonderful to that, right. It
29:17
Speaker 1: makes them feel alive. It makes them feel these sensations
29:22
Speaker 1: and emotions that they haven't felt in a decade or more,
29:26
Speaker 1: right since the relationship with their partner their spouse was new. Right,
29:30
Speaker 1: and it's just crushing. Oh my gosh, it's so hard
29:32
Speaker 1: because they're like, I've been begging this person to open
29:35
Speaker 1: up to me, and yet you knew her for two weeks.
29:37
Speaker 1: You've told her everything about our marriage, about this, about that,
29:41
Speaker 1: and yeah, it's crushing.
29:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a tough one. So I know we've covered
29:47
Speaker 2: why people cheat in some detail, but why do you
29:52
Speaker 2: think people risk it? Like, for example, and I know
29:55
Speaker 2: you've seen clients like this in your practice, couples who
30:00
Speaker 2: have a lot at stake, whether that's financially, children, all
30:07
Speaker 2: these things where obviously it could just all fall apart.
30:11
Speaker 2: So why risk specifically, I think the lives of your children.
30:19
Speaker 1: Again, I think it's a factor of some of the
30:21
Speaker 1: things we've already talked about, but also something called present bias,
30:25
Speaker 1: where people are acting in the moment very impulsively, and
30:29
Speaker 1: their desires in the moment kind of outweigh future desires,
30:35
Speaker 1: a future desire to continue to build a life, to
30:38
Speaker 1: continue to nurture this family unit, the desire to have sex,
30:44
Speaker 1: the desire to have attention, the desire to feel validated
30:48
Speaker 1: or seen or whatever in that very present moment is
30:54
Speaker 1: what's driving the decision, and affairs are a series of moments.
31:00
Speaker 1: And so I know we like to think about it like, well,
31:05
Speaker 1: you are clearly planning here. Yes, that is true, And
31:10
Speaker 1: I think that that's why I say it's a character flaw,
31:13
Speaker 1: because your integrity has to be breached for you to
31:17
Speaker 1: plan and prepare and sneak and lie, and but in
31:24
Speaker 1: the moment with the affair partner, the rush that they
31:27
Speaker 1: get is so profound, it's like a drug. Yeah, And
31:31
Speaker 1: so wanting that rush and that present moment outweighs future thinking.
31:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have a question. So for people who are
31:42
Speaker 2: in that the like maybe they have an active divorce right,
31:46
Speaker 2: so they're not divorced yet, but they're in the midst
31:49
Speaker 2: of a divorce and then they start seeing someone, Is
31:53
Speaker 2: that still cheating?
31:53
Speaker 1: I don't think so. Yeah, when the marriage is over,
31:55
Speaker 1: it's over. Yeah, you've signed on the dotted line saying
31:58
Speaker 1: I want this to be over. I'm just waiting on
31:59
Speaker 1: the court. The covenant's over. To me, it's more about
32:04
Speaker 1: the promise, the vow, the covenant and if the government's slow,
32:09
Speaker 1: the government's slow. Right, you've signed the PA, that's right.
32:14
Speaker 1: But I also don't think it's psychologically healthy to date
32:19
Speaker 1: when you're in the midst of divorce. Divorce brings out
32:22
Speaker 1: the worst in people. It's an incredibly stressful time. You're
32:25
Speaker 1: not going to be your best self. I don't really
32:28
Speaker 1: buy that. A lot of people have quite grieved their
32:30
Speaker 1: marriage while they're in the marriage. If you did, you
32:33
Speaker 1: would have left and you didn't. You stayed, so there
32:35
Speaker 1: was something that you didn't grieve about the marriage. I
32:38
Speaker 1: made that mistake. I ended up hurting somebody terribly.
32:42
Speaker 2: There's a rebound effect there. It just doesn't want.
32:44
Speaker 1: It's a band aid. You're band aiating your pain with
32:47
Speaker 1: somebody new. And one of two things is going to happen.
32:51
Speaker 1: Either you are going to hurt someone because you're going
32:54
Speaker 1: to get close to them and realize you weren't ready,
32:56
Speaker 1: and you're going to be thinking about your ex and
32:58
Speaker 1: you're going to be sad and you're gonna be their
33:00
Speaker 1: heart because they were ready and you really weren't. Or
33:05
Speaker 1: you are going to attach to someone very quickly who
33:08
Speaker 1: has red flags, who is not a healthy person, and
33:11
Speaker 1: you're gonna have pain on top of pain. Now you're
33:13
Speaker 1: trying to navigate the pain of that current relationship while
33:16
Speaker 1: not even having grieved the pain of the divorce. Yet.
33:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, I see it.
33:21
Speaker 1: I see it all the time.
33:22
Speaker 2: Well, and I think this is why often if in
33:26
Speaker 2: an affair situation when and it's not all the time, guys.
33:32
Speaker 2: I've seen actual people who get together with a fair
33:35
Speaker 2: partner get married and sometimes it works, but it's rare, right,
33:38
Speaker 2: very rare. And this is exactly why, because they're moving
33:42
Speaker 2: from one thing, one painful situation, into something that might
33:47
Speaker 2: not feel painful initially, but the behaviors will just.
33:52
Speaker 1: Yeah, you're pat to repeat absolutely because you're thinking, well,
33:55
Speaker 1: the problem was my spouse, right, and now that I'm
33:57
Speaker 1: rid of them, this new person is going to solve
33:59
Speaker 1: on my problems because they're not the old person. But
34:02
Speaker 1: your patterns are really what drives yeah, their relationship. Yeah,
34:06
Speaker 1: and they're in their patterns right, and you don't see
34:08
Speaker 1: those red flags. You're coming in even more blind to
34:12
Speaker 1: red flags through an affair because of the dopamine and
34:16
Speaker 1: the serotonin that you're getting from it being a secret
34:19
Speaker 1: and being this rush and this intensity that is rated
34:23
Speaker 1: quite higher in an affair than most normal dating relationships
34:27
Speaker 1: that start.
34:29
Speaker 2: So reality always kicks in, event.
34:31
Speaker 1: Always kicks in. Oh my gosh. And then what is
34:35
Speaker 1: very interesting is that I see couples all the time
34:38
Speaker 1: who started out as an affair and then one person
34:43
Speaker 1: cheats and they're dumbfounded, and I'm.
34:45
Speaker 2: Like, what, how how are you dufounded?
34:47
Speaker 1: You know they had this capability, You knew that they
34:52
Speaker 1: were the kind of person that had a breach in
34:54
Speaker 1: their integrity and you didn't think it wasn't It was
34:59
Speaker 1: only like it's because they think they were somebody special. Yeah,
35:02
Speaker 1: they think they were the exception. Everybody wants to think
35:04
Speaker 1: they're the exception. I'm the exception to the affair partner rule. Yeah,
35:09
Speaker 1: I'm the one that they were meant to be with.
35:11
Speaker 2: I'm the one that's on me.
35:12
Speaker 1: They'll never cheat on me.
35:15
Speaker 2: But if it's a character issue, it doesn't matter.
35:19
Speaker 1: It's across the board, it doesn't matter, it doesn't matter.
35:22
Speaker 2: You could be the perfect partner and it's not gonna matter.
35:23
Speaker 1: It's not gonna matter. Yeah, because the deeper reasons behind
35:29
Speaker 1: why they had affairs are still there.
35:31
Speaker 2: Yeah. So would you recommend for those people dating, like
35:35
Speaker 2: maybe not on the first day guys, but you know, fourth, fifth, sixth,
35:41
Speaker 2: to ask that question, have you ever cheated on anybody?
35:45
Speaker 1: I mean, yeah, you could, but I think most people
35:48
Speaker 1: would lie. Yeah, and if they do tell you the truth,
35:53
Speaker 1: run my god on a.
35:57
Speaker 2: Once a cheater? Where are our friends fans out there?
36:02
Speaker 2: If you know, you know, we we're on a break.
36:08
Speaker 1: Sure.
36:10
Speaker 2: So I think the most important question that we're getting
36:13
Speaker 2: to is and I of course I know the answer
36:16
Speaker 2: to this from you personally is yeah, should.
36:20
Speaker 1: You stay absolutely the clip not Yeah? And I get it.
36:25
Speaker 1: If I have a couple that comes across my desk
36:27
Speaker 1: and they say we want to rebuild, I will also
36:32
Speaker 1: think I'm perfectly capable of trying to help those people rebuild.
36:38
Speaker 1: It's a matter of I err on the side of again.
36:43
Speaker 1: I don't want to tell people, yeah, you guys should rebuild,
36:46
Speaker 1: and then what we know about cheaters is they reoffend,
36:49
Speaker 1: they have a higher reoffense rate, and then put that
36:53
Speaker 1: person who was victimized in a situation to be victimized again.
36:56
Speaker 1: I would rather err on the side of taking them
36:59
Speaker 1: out of a situation where they could be re traumatized.
37:02
Speaker 1: And that is why I give that advice.
37:04
Speaker 2: Yea. So it's all always under that pretense, that's right.
37:07
Speaker 1: So I start out with I want you to know
37:10
Speaker 1: the risks. I want you know the risks here.
37:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, and just the pretense that most likely will never
37:15
Speaker 2: be the same.
37:16
Speaker 1: No, you cannot tell me. You cannot tell me if
37:19
Speaker 1: your spouse had an affair that even if you guys
37:23
Speaker 1: went through the most intense interventions and rebuilt and you're
37:27
Speaker 1: somewhat happier or even mostly happy, that when they're late,
37:32
Speaker 1: or when they pick up their phone or when they
37:36
Speaker 1: go out of town on a work trip, that your
37:38
Speaker 1: brain doesn't go there. Right, you're freaking lying.
37:41
Speaker 2: Yeah, it wouldn't happen with mine because he'd be dead.
37:45
Speaker 1: And I helped you. I already teld them.
37:48
Speaker 2: I'm like, and I would do it like I wouldn't
37:50
Speaker 2: shoot you. I'd be like, yeah, you're it's something. Something
37:54
Speaker 2: is gonna be real slow. Oh god, Josh, just going
37:57
Speaker 2: to take that out. So I want to know. I
38:02
Speaker 2: know that you've you've coached multiple couples who have been
38:07
Speaker 2: in this spot. I have, and have you seen it work?
38:14
Speaker 1: It depends on what you define working to be Well, yeah,
38:19
Speaker 1: I mean can they can they get back to a
38:21
Speaker 1: level of happiness and functionality that works for them?
38:25
Speaker 2: Yes?
38:27
Speaker 1: Do I always believe everything the offended party says about
38:32
Speaker 1: how happy they are? No, Yeah, because this brings us
38:35
Speaker 1: back to the same principles that help people cheat are
38:38
Speaker 1: the same principles that convince people to stay. Self justification. Well,
38:43
Speaker 1: he's working on it, you know, he's going to therapy or.
38:49
Speaker 2: Change, you know.
38:50
Speaker 1: Euphemistic labeling. Well, it was just you know, we hit
38:54
Speaker 1: a rough patch and I was responsible too, so it
38:56
Speaker 1: was just a rough patch. Yeah, there's self justification. I
39:03
Speaker 1: really care about my family, you know, we have this
39:06
Speaker 1: life effort. Justification has been twenty years. So the same
39:11
Speaker 1: types of cognitive biases and disengagement from reality that the
39:17
Speaker 1: affair partner or that the person that had the affair
39:20
Speaker 1: uses to have an affair, are often the same psychological
39:23
Speaker 1: constructs experienced by someone who decides to stay. They convince
39:27
Speaker 1: themselves that their partner is working on it, going to
39:31
Speaker 1: be better, they can rebuild better, it's going to be fine.
39:35
Speaker 1: It wasn't that bad.
39:36
Speaker 2: All these things a psychological disaster. It's like the perfect
39:40
Speaker 2: psychological storm. It sounds like.
39:42
Speaker 1: Just yeah, because we're meant to be monogamous, and I
39:45
Speaker 1: am so sick of hearing people's day. Scientifically, we're not
39:48
Speaker 1: meant to be monogamous. According to what science. We are
39:52
Speaker 1: built for diatic pair bonds that is ingrained into our DNA,
39:56
Speaker 1: That is our entire mating strategy to have lasting pair
40:01
Speaker 1: bonds that produce children, and then we stay with that
40:05
Speaker 1: person to raise that child and protect that child until
40:07
Speaker 1: they are ready to be out into the world. There
40:09
Speaker 1: is no mating strategy for humans that involves mating with
40:13
Speaker 1: whoever and hoping offspring survive. Yeah, are we capable of
40:17
Speaker 1: doing that? Yes? Are we designed to do that? No,
40:21
Speaker 1: we are a monogamous culture that happens to have infidelity,
40:25
Speaker 1: not a non monogamous culture that happens to sometimes be monogamous.
40:29
Speaker 2: Amen's sister, I totally agree. I want to go back though,
40:32
Speaker 2: to the very first thing you said, which is you've
40:35
Speaker 2: seen this like ramp up in your practice. Why.
40:40
Speaker 1: I don't know if I have the answer to that.
40:42
Speaker 2: Is it the availability of people?
40:46
Speaker 1: I don't know. I think our dopamine systems are being wrecked,
40:49
Speaker 1: and they know that being hijacked for even know the
40:52
Speaker 1: changes in social media are happening because people's dopamine systems
40:56
Speaker 1: are wrecked. So I think when your dopamine system is wrecked,
41:00
Speaker 1: you don't get a lot of joy out of everyday life,
41:03
Speaker 1: Like watching your kid do something cool doesn't give you
41:05
Speaker 1: like a spike of happiness and joy from the dopamine.
41:08
Speaker 1: So you have to get more and more intense to
41:13
Speaker 1: feel something now, And that's really sad. And I think
41:18
Speaker 1: this is really apparent in pornography use, which yes, I
41:21
Speaker 1: do believe is cheating. You're watching other people have sex
41:25
Speaker 1: just because it's through a screen. To me, isn't that
41:28
Speaker 1: much different than if you were watching through a hole
41:30
Speaker 1: in the wall or they were doing it in your bedroom.
41:33
Speaker 1: It's just because it's through a screen doesn't mean it's
41:35
Speaker 1: not a violation of trust. And you're getting sexually turned
41:40
Speaker 1: on by another person. That's to me, that's cheating. Yeah, yeah,
41:44
Speaker 1: it's awful. And what we know about pornography use is
41:48
Speaker 1: that you have to kind of up the ante over
41:51
Speaker 1: time to continue to get stimulated by it. So people
41:55
Speaker 1: that start watching pornography might start out watching, you know,
42:00
Speaker 1: heterosexual couples have sex. Yeah, then that doesn't do it
42:04
Speaker 1: for them anymore. Then it has to get more intense
42:07
Speaker 1: or strange. There has to be more novelty, So then
42:09
Speaker 1: they go to watching gay sex. Then even that stops working,
42:14
Speaker 1: so then they have to go watch like transsexual individuals
42:18
Speaker 1: have sex like it just constantly. Their brain the dopamine
42:21
Speaker 1: system gets used to it, so you have to keep
42:24
Speaker 1: kind of upping the ante. Just like with a drug,
42:26
Speaker 1: you have to keep taking more and more and more
42:28
Speaker 1: because you develop a tolerance. It's that exact same mechanism
42:31
Speaker 1: in the brain.
42:31
Speaker 2: I think we need to do a whole episode on pornography,
42:35
Speaker 2: just because it's a topic that comes up.
42:36
Speaker 1: So often constantly.
42:38
Speaker 2: It's a question that I see come across messages a lot.
42:43
Speaker 2: One of course, is you know, is it considered cheating?
42:48
Speaker 2: What do I do? You know? How? And I think
42:52
Speaker 2: just recently, and maybe not even to the degree that
42:56
Speaker 2: it needs to be, but porn is now being you
43:00
Speaker 2: as this component of addiction and like a drug, and
43:04
Speaker 2: there's been more awareness around it where it wasn't as
43:06
Speaker 2: much in the past, and a lot of that is
43:08
Speaker 2: because of the availability of it.
43:09
Speaker 1: Yes, it's incredibly accessible. And I have this moral struggle
43:15
Speaker 1: in political struggle where I'm very libertarian. I believe in
43:19
Speaker 1: personal freedom. I believe in the personal decisions to make
43:22
Speaker 1: mistakes as long as you're not harming anyone. So if
43:26
Speaker 1: you're like a single person and you want to watch pornography,
43:28
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, you know that is a very
43:30
Speaker 1: unfortunate adult decision, but it's still an adult decision. And
43:33
Speaker 1: in the state of Kentucky, I read this that they
43:37
Speaker 1: passed a law where you can't view pornography without putting
43:40
Speaker 1: your driver's license and to prove that you're over eighteen. Okay,
43:44
Speaker 1: so I think Kentucky has taken some steps to limit it,
43:48
Speaker 1: but also again the libertarian and me goes but big brother, right, then,
43:53
Speaker 1: your collecting people's personal information alongside you know, their.
43:59
Speaker 2: Private day, how do you win? I mean, you know
44:02
Speaker 2: it just I mean, it warps the mind no matter
44:04
Speaker 2: how old you are. But it's definitely going to warp
44:05
Speaker 2: the mind of someone under at the age of eighteen.
44:08
Speaker 1: Oh for sure. Yeah, we know that it's incredibly detrimental
44:12
Speaker 1: to developing brains, just like any drug is.
44:14
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Well, I guess the biggest question here is,
44:24
Speaker 2: or the biggest really component is forgiveness. How do you
44:29
Speaker 2: forgive in that situation?
44:34
Speaker 1: Forgiveness and forgetting and boundaries are not the same thing,
44:37
Speaker 1: and we always lump them together. I talk about this
44:39
Speaker 1: a lot. Forgiveness is deciding to not fight a battle
44:45
Speaker 1: within yourself about it anymore, and to lay down your
44:47
Speaker 1: swords with your partner about it. Yeah, so you're not
44:50
Speaker 1: fighting about it anymore. You've decided you're going to move forward,
44:56
Speaker 1: and you're not going to use that past as a
44:58
Speaker 1: weapon against them, weapon against yourself in your own internal battles.
45:03
Speaker 1: That is hard. It's a daily decision for most people.
45:05
Speaker 1: It's not a one and done thing. I do believe
45:09
Speaker 1: God can dramatically change people, and sometimes people are able
45:14
Speaker 1: to get to a place of forgiveness. I always recommend
45:18
Speaker 1: forgiveness no matter what. I think that whether you stay
45:21
Speaker 1: or go, forgiveness is absolutely necessary. It's about relieving yourself
45:28
Speaker 1: from the battle and the pain and not fighting yourself
45:31
Speaker 1: over it, not holding on to bitterness. However, if we
45:36
Speaker 1: lump forgiveness into continuing their relationship the same way without boundaries,
45:42
Speaker 1: I don't think that that's healthy. I think whoever has
45:45
Speaker 1: cheated on their partner has a lot to prove, and
45:48
Speaker 1: the science shows it takes at least two years for
45:51
Speaker 1: the offended person to start to trust again. My next
45:55
Speaker 1: question time, and what we see happen a lot, is
45:57
Speaker 1: that the person who cheated is like, really good about
45:59
Speaker 1: all the things. For six months, I share my location,
46:02
Speaker 1: you have the password to my phone. You know, you
46:05
Speaker 1: can FaceTime me whenever you want, all of it. They're
46:09
Speaker 1: all good for that for six months. Then they get
46:12
Speaker 1: tired of it. Then they're like, you know, I don't
46:14
Speaker 1: want to have to be monitored all the time, I
46:17
Speaker 1: don't feel like I have my autonomy trust me or
46:19
Speaker 1: leave me, And it starts to slowly go downhill, and
46:23
Speaker 1: the data supports that that there's a honeymoon period after cheating,
46:27
Speaker 1: and then we see those effects of cognitive dissonance and
46:32
Speaker 1: self justification really start to kick in, where people want
46:35
Speaker 1: to protect their moral identity and instead of continuing to
46:41
Speaker 1: take the accountability of I showed a lack of integrity,
46:46
Speaker 1: I was dishonest, I was deceptive, I was selfish. They
46:51
Speaker 1: can't hold that truth about themselves anymore. They're wanting so
46:54
Speaker 1: much to replace it with I'm a good person again,
46:57
Speaker 1: and their partner keeping tak on them. They're partner needing
47:01
Speaker 1: this proof from them. They're partner needing this trust rebuilding
47:06
Speaker 1: keeps them from fully identifying with being a good person
47:11
Speaker 1: a moral person again. They're reminded that they made that
47:14
Speaker 1: mistake and it wears on their psyche over time. The
47:20
Speaker 1: shame continues, right because they want to restore their sense
47:23
Speaker 1: of self concept that I am a good person, I
47:26
Speaker 1: am a moral person, but if you keep reminding me
47:29
Speaker 1: of what I've done, I can't hold that to be
47:32
Speaker 1: the truth anymore. I still have to reconcile with the
47:34
Speaker 1: fact that I breached my own integrity, I acted against
47:38
Speaker 1: my values. I very much harmed you, deceived you, maybe
47:44
Speaker 1: even sexually abused you. Because having a physical affair and
47:47
Speaker 1: then having sex with your partner exposes them to disease.
47:51
Speaker 1: And that is a form of sexual abuse, that is
47:54
Speaker 1: non consensual sex. Essentially, they're you know, being transmitted the bacteria,
47:59
Speaker 1: viruses whatever of the person you cheated with without their consent.
48:03
Speaker 2: My gosh, it's so true.
48:05
Speaker 1: So it is a form of sexual abuse. All kinds
48:08
Speaker 1: of abuse is on a spectrum, right, Yeah, And so
48:13
Speaker 1: the desire to regain their morality is often what makes
48:18
Speaker 1: them flip the script back to you deserved it. You
48:22
Speaker 1: are a bad partner, You don't trust me, You're the
48:25
Speaker 1: problem in this relationship. And that's why we see after
48:27
Speaker 1: the honeymoon period, relationships crash and burn within the first
48:32
Speaker 1: year after an affair. They might get a year if
48:35
Speaker 1: they're lucky of the honeymoon period. And again, I'm not
48:39
Speaker 1: talking about every single relationship. I'm sure there's gonna be
48:41
Speaker 1: somebody listening, going we rebuilt and we're fine. First of all,
48:45
Speaker 1: are you are you really fine? If you're really dead
48:47
Speaker 1: freaking honest with yourself. Are you fine? Are you as
48:50
Speaker 1: fine as before they did it? My thoughts on that
48:53
Speaker 1: is probably know. But if you're fine enough, that's your
48:56
Speaker 1: own personal decision. But most people aren't. And I think
49:03
Speaker 1: it's important to know what can happen, but what usually happens, right.
49:07
Speaker 2: And what level of discomfort you're willing to live with.
49:09
Speaker 2: I mean, that's really what it comes down to. Yeah.
49:11
Speaker 1: I would rather, as one girl on TikTok said, eat
49:13
Speaker 1: a five by seven rug than ever wonder what someone
49:18
Speaker 1: is doing behind my back.
49:20
Speaker 2: Ever I know?
49:21
Speaker 1: Ever again, Yeah, I.
49:23
Speaker 2: Could never go there.
49:24
Speaker 1: It is not worth it. No, it is not worth
49:26
Speaker 1: one ounce of my piece, my sanity, my time, my effort, nothing.
49:30
Speaker 1: I'd rather be by myself for the rest of my life.
49:32
Speaker 2: I'd rather be alone. Yeah.
49:34
Speaker 1: Amen, it's not worth it. And maybe that's maybe that's
49:37
Speaker 1: our bias because we've been.
49:38
Speaker 2: Through it, or maybe it's because we just love ourselves
49:42
Speaker 2: that much. Yeah, I mean that's really what it comes down.
49:44
Speaker 1: There's there's eight billion people in the world, and you
49:48
Speaker 1: want to stay with that guy, right or that girl? Yeah,
49:50
Speaker 1: that shows you that they have no integrity. Integrity, is
49:53
Speaker 1: doing the right thing because it's the right thing to do,
49:55
Speaker 1: even if nobody's watching. Where else is their integrity breach
49:59
Speaker 1: showing up in your finances, in their work relationships. And
50:05
Speaker 1: a lot of the people that I see who do
50:08
Speaker 1: cheat have done some sketchy things in business in their finances. Yeah,
50:15
Speaker 1: there might be higher narcissistic traits driving that cheating to
50:17
Speaker 1: begin with.
50:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think that's the hope, right because I
50:21
Speaker 2: do want to end on a hopeful note, you know,
50:23
Speaker 2: for anybody who may be experiencing this exact situation right now,
50:28
Speaker 2: because it is so painful, it is the worst. But
50:31
Speaker 2: I think the hope lies, you know, within yourself and
50:36
Speaker 2: knowing that you know, if you decide to stay, and
50:41
Speaker 2: accepting the level of discomfort that you're willing to live with,
50:46
Speaker 2: and being really honest with yourself, And that.
50:48
Speaker 1: Is that perpetual discomfort worse than the temporary pain of detachment.
50:53
Speaker 1: That's what I would ask people in this situation right now.
50:56
Speaker 1: Is the indefinite, never ending wondering mm hmm, the gut
51:01
Speaker 1: punch you get when they pick up their phone, here's
51:03
Speaker 1: your the tightness in your chest. Is it worth it?
51:06
Speaker 2: Yeah? And I think you know, not to toot our
51:08
Speaker 2: own horns, but the hope lies within us. Guys.
51:10
Speaker 1: We did it. We did it.
51:12
Speaker 2: Awesome people, Oh gosh, like our lives are just so
51:17
Speaker 2: much better in every aspect when we married.
51:22
Speaker 1: The right price safe in my opinion, it's just you
51:25
Speaker 1: can't put a price tag on it.
51:27
Speaker 2: No, you cannot. Yeah, you absolutely cannot. So, guys, we
51:32
Speaker 2: hope that this gave you some insight, you know, obviously,
51:35
Speaker 2: some hope into yourself, and obviously you can always reach
51:39
Speaker 2: out to us. Our new website is going to be
51:42
Speaker 2: Lives very soon August third. Okay, so right before this
51:49
Speaker 2: episode dropped, so.
51:50
Speaker 1: See us at doctor Sarah Hensley dot com. That's doctor
51:52
Speaker 1: spelled out because the other doctor Sarah Hensley wouldn't give
51:57
Speaker 1: up the good one.
51:58
Speaker 2: Door, we got second best, doctor Sarahensley dot com. Our
52:01
Speaker 2: Love Doc Podcast twenty seven promo code is still good.
52:04
Speaker 2: You can use that for twenty seven percent off all services.
52:07
Speaker 2: Please continue to tune in, like, subscribe, leave us a comment.
52:10
Speaker 2: We love you guys, and until next time, peace, love
52:13
Speaker 2: and perspective.